Men talking about the BibleYou may remember the exchange I posted a while back with a spiritual brother and friend, a Jehovah’s Witness publisher named “Ben”. Well we began to exchange some emails recently, and it turned into a long running dialogue about the problems within the organization. To his credit, he defends what he has been taught with an open mind, trying his best to reason with me. I do the same, with the goal of helping him to awaken to the flaws of the organization.

First I will give you a brief summary of the (quite lengthy) exchange, as well as my impressions of what went right and what went wrong and some background on the brother. I spent many hours composing these emails and their attachments, but ultimately it may have been too much too fast. We may never know…or I may hear from him tomorrow, it’s impossible to say.

Summary: Ben asks how I am. I explain that I have had some problems, and stepped down. (We only talk a few times a year as he lives quite far away) I explain that my conscience was troubling me due to the worship of the GB by many of the friends. He acknowledges this, and says that he had a close friend that was an elder and left, saying almost that exact thing. I point out many scriptural problems and flaws that indicate that Jehovah’s spirit couldn’t be leading these men.  He feels that there are flaws but this is the “one Club” that God has been using and we have to follow the rules of the club. I counter this reasoning, citing many scriptures and articles. It gets a little less civil, and he worries I am becoming like all the other smug born-again Christians he knows. I respond firmly (too firmly?) that the WT and the GB are misleading many and building an empire worth many billions of dollars. It is also pointed out that in all his emails, he has never cited one article or Bible verse. He does not respond back after this.

Background: Ben has endured some extremely hard knocks, and has seen some awful things done by congregation members as well as his own father who was a closeted homosexual elder. Commendably, rather than focus on the negative he has tried his best to stay loyal to Jehovah God and to the  truth.  His first wife (an active Witness) cheated on him with another brother, then after a time he attempted to remarry a divorced sister. She was supposedly “not scripturally free” to marry again. They prayed and pleaded and tried to explain why she was free to the elders. They then married before being given the “ok”. Judicial action ensued. While it was all pending they wrote the society and appealed the matter, did hours and hours of research, and then basically received a “form letter” from the branch office. They were then disfellowshipped. (wrongly in my opinion but I do not know all the details)

They worked hard to get reinstated and it took nearly a year. Now he keeps his head down and does little but attend meetings. He has a successful business, and stays in the congregation for social and spiritual reasons, calling it “The Club”, but admits he does no deep Bible study.


My impressions: One brother that successfully faded a number of years ago told me that he does not actively try to persuade Witnesses to leave the Watchtower Organization. Nor would he convince them to stay in either. His reasoning is that if they “have an itch” then they will scratch it, and he would happily help them scratch it if they asked. If they don’t…well then they won’t and he won’t.

There is a certain logic to this reasoning, but it is a cold spock-like logic, and hard for many of us to practice in the real world. Perhaps that’s what I should have done. I honestly don’t know. Many of these emails (his and mine) were written late into the night, are off the cuff, contain mispellings, etc.

Could I have done a better job in reasoning with him? Undoubtedly. Used better/different quotes, reasoning points, etc.? I’m certain of it. Suffice it to say as the conversation unfolded, I did what we all do- the best we can.

In my heart I feel that is what our loving heavenly Father wants from each of us. To try our best, and do what we can to help one another, while we keep lowliness of mind in the forefront, because we are not any better than anyone else.  This pleases Almighty God and our Lord Jesus because it is one of the things that Christ commanded us to do as his followers. Whether we use the fruit of our lips; or our fingertips- we must be Witnesses for Jesus in whatever ways we can. (Acts 1:8; Acts 10:42; Revelation 19:10) Now, and for as long as we live.




The email exchange follows. Please note that names and other identifying details have been edited or removed. Brackets are used for clarification or to preserve anonymity and were not a part of the original text.





Ben Smith <Ben@[redacted].com> Fri, Dec 23,  at 3:13 AM

To:  JJ

Hi JJ,

Just thought I would check in on you and see how things are going?

Family is good here.  Ann thought her job was threatened [where] she works for, but all is well. Business for me is the busiest its ever been.  We are actually building a new home.  This one is just getting too small for us.  And that’s very exciting to us.  Congregation is actually building too…well not exactly.  We have a new building picked out and its being worked on. Our present building is just becoming too much to keep up… I guess. Plus the new hall will house four congregations.

Hope all is well with you and yours.




[redacted]   Sat, Dec 31,  at 7:22 AM

To: Ben Smith <Ben@[redacted].com>

Hey Ben thanks for saying hi. Things have been good and things have been not so good lol.

I’m glad you and Ann’s work is going so well- that’s great esp in this economy. My job is good- they have finally lifted some of cuts and for the first time in years we have gotten a raise yippee! LOL.


Building your own home how exciting – that’s awesome. The American dream haha good for you.

My marriage has been going thru major trials. My wife has talked about leaving me but we are working through it. I stepped down due to conscience reasons and she thinks I am weak in the truth. The loss of status and talk among the friends [is very hard for her to handle]. Some GOOD news is that I have been doing more deep study than I ever have and am learning a lot of things, including studying Biblical Greek- but mainly just the basics like the alphabet and the pronunciation. It’s very cool to be able to sound out a word in the Kingdom Interlinear and easily look up the meaning. My prayer and relationship w Jah and Jesus is strong and we have a great weekly study we all enjoy, the kids included.


Anyway, sorry to dump that on you but I thought well there’s not that many around here I can tell lol.






Ben Smith <Ben@[redacted].com> Sat, Dec 31,  at 7:55 AM

To: [redacted]

BRO!! Whats going on??? Your marriage?? Sorry to be personal…and if you dont want to tell me anything, I totally understand.

But… what???  YOU …?  HER?

Trouble in a marriage 99 times out of a 100 only means one thing. Whats going on??

(again… if its not my busines, its not my business, just tell me. Just I’ve been there, I can help, if you want it.)










[redacted]   Sat, Dec 31,  at 10:23 AM

To: Ben Smith <Ben@[redacted].com>

Well we are working through it, getting better a tiny bit at a time. She has been [sick for a few] years, undiagnosed, trying to figure out what’s wrong. It has taken a toll and finally it’s getting fixed somewhat. That’s not all it’s a long story of course.

You can ask me anything at all – we go back a ways plus ur so far away lol it’s not like I have to worry about you telling anyone around here 😉

What does 99% mean?




Ben Smith <Ben@[redacted].com> Sat, Dec 31,  at 10:26 AM

To: “[redacted]”

Ok. 99% :  someone in the relationship has sex outside the marriage.

You?  Her?  I’m not being judgemental.  I just have for loss of a better term an expert in this area.  Dealing with a couple right now that’s going thru it.


Ben Smith




JJ    Sat, Dec 31,  at 11:44 AM

To: Ben Smith <Ben@[redacted].com>

No infidelity in our marriage- that’s not a problem. You’re not being judgemental. You are dealing with a couple? Are you an elder now? Or MS? Or freelance therapist in your spare time lol JK…



Ben Smith <Ben@[redacted].com> Sat, Dec 31,  at 12:23 PM

To:  JJ

ok … cool.

Nope not an elder or a MS  (honestly, not sure if I ever want to go  back there….at least not in the near future – too much work – call me selfish, but the less I know about some brothers and sisters, the better I feel about the truth.  hahah – I have too much baggage.)

I do feel I am a part time therapist at times though.  Its actually a [co-worker] of mine is going thru the problem.  She just wants to leave him, … for “no reason”.  Theres ALWAYS a reason.

Ok… well, I am really sorry to hear you are going thru that.  I dont really know you “personally” enough to even have a feel for how things were/are with you guys.  But that seems well… rather sucky.

How long have you guys been married?  Do you guys “fight” at all much?  How old is your wife? MAN, I am getting personal.


And you stepping down for a “conscience reasons” – whats going on?  :-)











[redacted]   Sun, Jan 1,  at 2:55 AM

To: Ben Smith <Ben@[redacted].com>

[Her health is] better she [takes meds for it now.] Been married [a long time]. We don’t fight that often actually. We wanted to get remarried… you know have a ceremony again last year- but there’s a WT article on that- doestn really say why but just says “Christians don’t do that” so we didn’t…It got me going bc if it’s in the Bible well that’s it I believe it. But if it isn’t in the Bible well then its hard for me to understand and agree. I’m a skeptical person that’s the way my dad raised me.

I have a friend in Virginia he was an elder but stepped down. Another [near Arizona] he stepped down too. And one North of me too. All former elders like me- Something’s not right…ppl r worshipping the org instead of looking to Jah and Christ. I love the truth and Iove the brothers I’m just waiting on Jehovah that’s all I can do right?

There are some that are hoping for reform…probably never happen the way we think but Jeremiah he preached to his own ppl right? no one else just the believers and they were out of line.  Have you ever researched this stuff online? It’s a trip. Sorry to go sideways on you lol hope you aren’t mad at me!







Ben Smith <Ben@[redacted].com> Mon, Jan 2,  at 5:34 AM

To: [redacted]


I say WOW like that, because the last thing you said is the same kind of thoughts I have been saying.


I had a very close long time friend, elder, etc, leave the truth last year for the same type things.  He felt the Slave was saying “worship us”.  Which I felt he was being negative.  But he left.  …and he has never felt so spiritual at the time…doing lots of studying etc.

I have alot of thoughts myself.  I am not a huge reader or “study-er”, but I lost alot of faith in … people.  I dont know how to talk about this stuff since it feels rather…apostate.  And I feel in the truth, you cant talk about this stuff.  Its either people will try to FIX YOU or they SHUN YOU!  How do you ever get fixed then??

A personal question for you:  (curious how you would answer – for myself) How do you know your not “becoming apostate” with this type of thinking?

Yesterday at the meeting, I thought, during the public talk, there always has been an organization.  Way back to Noahs time. There was a “WAY TO DO IT” and people that followed.  Everyone that followed weren’t always privy to why they were doing it that way.  It was…

“This is what Jehovah of armies has said”.  And that message was delivered by some guy…who for most part was someone everyone admired.  Then… later… people would rebel, and it never worked out for them.

HOW do you know this type of thinks doesnt put us in the same boats of the Isrealites who rebelled?

Again… I am not being critical of you.  I was just dumb founded how right how you are with my type of thinking (at times, I fight it.)  I am just wondering how you deal with it.


As far as doing research on the net about it, I wont do that.  I think there is a real threat with apostasy.  It was during bible times…. Satan WOULD be working hard at messing with the minds of the true religion.  Without doing any research on that point alone (worldly or JW material), that only makes sense.  And the net is the EASY way for Satan to encourage people to deliever messages of confusion and disorder.  So… for me, I don’t need to find it.  And bro… you gotta know thats dangerous areas to look into…. right?

I hope you understand where I am coming from and not being judgemental.










JJ    Wed, Jan 4,  at 9:43 AM

To: Ben Smith <Ben@[redacted].com>


Sorry to take a few days to get back to you- been busy and this is a big topic lol. Your words and your email are so appreciated- I have gone through much agony over the last year or so over these thoughts.

Your elder friend is not an anomaly- there are many that have been waking up to a systemic problem that nags at the back of their mind. Remember when we had that chat awhile back and we talked about the Matrix and Morpheus and saying it’s like a splinter in your mind, etc. well lots of us feel that.


So anyway to your comments and question(s):


The “apostate” label is a serious one to slap on someone or something. Propagandists often put a label on something to discredit it.  Is a so-called “banned book” or website of necessity apostate? Maybe it is. Maybe it is not. It depends. Job said “does not the ear test words as the palate tastes food?” (Job 12:11) If someone is an angry bitter spewer of hateful slander and negativity, then your heart/mind tells you the answer. But if a person is fair, accurate, dispassionate and loving in what they are saying, should

we shrink away and not be willing to listen? If the information is accurate and you are able to cross-check the statements, should we be afraid to scrutinize what we have learned and what we believe? The

scriptures say to “keep testing whether we are in the faith.” (2 Cor 13:5) Another says “not to believe every inspired expression”. (1 John 4:1; also see attached file, “Open mind”. It is a list of excellent WT quotes on this point)

Another well known expression is “knowledge is power” and there is hardly a person on the planet that will disagree with that one.  However it wasn’t always this way. The Catholic church tried to keep knowledge away from the people for years. The Bible was a banned book basically. I just watched the story of Martin Luther with my kids. He saw that there were flaws in the church but he didn’t want to leave the Catholic religion- he respected the leaders, and loved the Bible, and loved the truth. He was disgusted by some of  the things they had strayed on. He stood up to the authority structure.

And they tried to kill him and were almost successful. But there was a growing underground of dissidents that supported him and agreed with him- more than he could have ever known existed. His writings were banned also- and considered “apostate” and heretical and “dangerous”.

Elijah thought he was all alone in not worshiping the Baals, yet Jehovah told him that there were 7,000 more that had not bent the knee to them even thought the majority in the nation of Israel were apostate themselves. (1 Kings 19:18) Jeremiah was considered an apostate and a rabble-rouser and preached exclusively to God’s people. (As was Jesus!)

As for Moses, the Israelites that rebelled against Moses were going against someone that was directly appointed by God- someone that had amazing miraculous gifts to prove his appointment. When Moses told them the words of Jehovah he was infallible- it was God talking through him. This was a unique time in history and the miracles, and God speaking to people, it had not yet ceased. But today they have ceased. The brothers have candidly admitted that they are not inspired. If it’s in the Bible it’s inspired. If it’s not in the Bible, then it’s not inspired, as simple as that.


Just like that article that my wife and I read that said we as Christians “don’t get remarried”…I casually asked an older elder that is real tech savvy and very smart who I look up to about it (he is in a neighboring area) He said, “well just go off to Vegas and do it, and don’t tell anybody!” Which of course we could have done. But the point was WHY do I have to SNEAK off to show the world that I love my wife? If certain ones did get wind of it though, I would be brought into the backroom and counseled for it, guaranteed. No scriptures can be cited that “prove” that it is sinful, damaging, etc. We just “don’t do it” according to the article. And a servant is supposed to be exemplary and follow every policy to the letter right?


The same can be said of beards. Around the 1920s Rutherford told one of the Bethel overseers to shave his beard off- no explanation was given but it may have had to do with the fact that many still were loyal to Russell (who had a beard) and he was making many changes and trying to keep everyone in line. About 2/3 of the Bible Students left the movement over those years, especially when Rutherford changed our name in 1931. So that was it- beards began to be phased out and Jesus was depicted without a beard for many years in the publications, even though we all know he had a beard. Today the tradition in most parts of the western world is that if a brother has a beard he cannot be used. He can’t be a servant or an elder, etc.

Now having a beard is not a “big deal” to me, I don’t have one. But if I was to show up at the meeting after a trip and not shave my vacation beard, what would the “talk” be in the Hall? That I was rebellious, worldly, etc… Why? Not because of my Christian character, nor any Bible scriptures I had violated, but because of a tradition and an opinion that goes back 80 some years. Jesus told the Pharisees that they had made the Word of God invalid because of their tradition. They had overstepped their bounds and used the power they had to control the people.


You said: “there always has been an organization.  Way back to Noahs time.” Well God directly spoke to one man, and he and his 7 family members carried out His will. Does 8 people make up an “organization”?

IDK, possibly, but it really just seems like Jehovah speaking to one man and then he and his family carrying out his will. No one else joined their “organization”.

You said: “I lost alot of faith in … people.” Well I know that feeling. Men have feet of clay and not a one of them are perfect or can save us. The scriptures say repeatedly that only Jesus can save us. (1 John 5:1) Some put elders up on a pedestal. Or COs or GB members, etc. I used to also. But not any more. Jesus said that HE was “the truth” in John 14:6. In John 1:1 he is called the Word, or Logos in Greek. In John 17:17 he said “your WORD is TRUTH.” and used the SAME Greek word, “Logos”. In a roundabout way (like he often did) he was telling us that HE was the truth. Not the Jewish organization. Not the pharisees. He was the truth. So I am waiting on Jehovah and staying in the truth- but I am not waiting on imperfect men, to whom no salvation belongs. (Ps 146:3)


You said: “It feels rather…apostate. And I feel in the truth, you cant talk about this stuff.  Its either people will try to FIX YOU or they SHUN YOU!  How do you ever get fixed then??”


This is a brilliant point, and a glaring problem. There is a website that talks about this and is not written by “angry apostates”. (IMO) Don’t visit it if you feel uncomfortable, I just refer to it to illustrate this point. It talks respectfully about three major areas that they feel needs reforming. The brothers that operate the site are by necessity anonymous, but only because they have no other choice. They are not unique. There are many misconceptions about blood, DFing, the overlapping generation changes, etc. that sincere brothers and sisters cannot figure out because there are no clear scriptural direction. If we abstain from blood, why is it

that we are allowed to accept liter bags of blood fractions into our veins? How do we know which fractions are okay and which are not? It doesn’t make sense to many. If we cannot store our own blood because it is supposed to be poured out on to the ground, why can someone else’s blood be stored and then transfused into us as long as it is certain combinations of fractions? Well the scriptures don’t say. We don’t really know. Why can’t I donate my blood since thousands of Witnesses receive blood fractions and blood products in fractionated form every year? We use the fractions but we don’t contribute to the supply because we feel that is sinful…it makes no sense. The problem is that people’s lives are at stake and many have died needlessly.


Here’s one example:


In 1961 organ transplants were allowed in the Watchtower 1961 Aug 1 p.480 Questions from Readers. Then in the Watchtower 1967 Nov 15 pp.702-704 they were considered cannibalism. Then in 1980 the WT said:

“There is no Biblical command pointedly forbidding the taking in of other human tissue … It is a matter for personal decision…” (Watchtower 1980 Mar 15 p 31) The Watchtower has gone even further now, commending transplants for the way they have “helped” people. (Awake! 1989 Aug 22 p.6) What is shameful in all this is that it was never stated that the view had changed. The Watchtower Index does not reference the 1967 article in regards to transplants. No apology has been published for the sake of those that were wrongfully disfellowshipped and those that unnecessarily lost their lives. How must this make a Witness feel that lost a loved one over the issue during the 1970’s?  If a person accepted a transplant in February of 1980, one month prior to the policy beibng changed and was DFed, were they re-instated when the policy changed? Were they ever really in disfavor with Jehovah to begin with?


Another example is oral and anal sex. (See attached document of quotes) There are others but I am going to stop here. Please forgive me for writing a book lol. I was trying to give a proper explanation. I love Jehovah and Jesus and I love the friends in my hall. I have no beef with the elders, they are for the most part humble guys just trying to do their best. If you have questions ask away, ask anything.

But I won’t bring it up again if you don’t bro. I’m not in the tearing down business I am looking for the positive side of things as of late and much prefer building up.






I didn’t think you were being judgemental at all- just being a good friend. Thanks for that.



2 attachments

Open Mind.doc










Ben Smith <Ben@[redacted].com> Thu, Jan 5,  at 11:23 AM

To:  JJ

Hi JJ,

Sorry for my delay as well.  Super busy with so much stuff going on. I read your email a few times.  And honestly… its all good stuff.  Something I never told you.

[A few years ago], I remarried…. a sister…. who wasn’t free to   remarry. Her ex had told her after a year and a half of marriage, that he had [been unfaithful]  while they were dating. Including their engagement…. within a month of their wedding… in the kingdom hall. We were already friends….but now we had the same problem with our exs… this brought us closer. We were going to run off and get married.  But… I couldn’t do it.  I wanted to see if there was anyway scripturally to marry. It just didn’t make sense …or loving… that she couldnt.

Ann did all kinds of research.  We spent TWO YEARS searching.  Tons of research.  Amazingly valid points that showed (in our opinion) there really was no solid scriptual basis that she couldn’t remarry.

One simple point (of many):  Isrealites who committed adultery while married had the pentality of death.  Outside of marriage, those who committed fornication, did not face death.  What about ones who were engaged?  DEATH!  The same pentalty as if married.  So Jehovah must of viewed engagement as sacred.  One of our questions were, when did Jehovah change his view of the seriousness of engagement?  We JWs base our whole not-allowing remarriage on Matt 19:9.  But if you seriously look at the events of that scripture, and who Jesus was talking to, the Slaves explanation doesn’t make much sense.

This point by itself is nothing much… we have a TON of logical reasoning, but…

After two letters to the Society, with no real answer… I mean… its like they didn’t even read our 6 pages of research.  They basically sent back a form letter answer.  Sigh.   …. we just got married.  Thus breaking the “spell” we were under.  I personally felt we did the right thing in Jehovahs eyes….but it didnt matter. We were disfellowshipped….but it took 6 weeks for them to come to an answer.  The letters were so logical and baffling, our situation went thru several congregation bodies, the CO…and up to the DO.

Since we basically made every meeting… we were reinstated [in about a year].  The exact time one brother, who knew our dilemma, said it would take.

My point is: I totally understand where you are coming from.  Some things dont seem right.

BUT…. my question to you… and it was to my friend (who is now not making any meetings, avoids all elders, etc… gone)… Where is all this questioning going to get you? I mean… are you hoping a division will happen?  If there is, there are so many “signs” that point to our religion is the one that really is trying hard to please Jehovah. This new division would really have to live up to alot of what we as JWs are already doing… right? Our organization, I feel, as a whole, tries.  It tries to do the right thing.  Its trying to come up with answers in this complex world that feels to be in alignment with the Bible…. but  …Is it   perfect?  – No.   Is it making dumb rules and mistakes at times? –    Yep. But…what is the alternative??

I’m not judging you, my friend. You have no idea how aligned I can be with this “alternative”

thinking.          I grew up in the “truth”… I dont know anything else.             I DO know, we have heard nothing but stories of how many brothers  and sisters couldnt find satifying answers within their past  religion.

And that dissatisfaction lead to an open mind for when a JW knocked  their door.  Sigh.  Many times I feel dissatisfied with answers.             What would happen if someone new knocked on my door?   Try to fix  their logic?  Shun them?

I’m just not sure where all of this “thinking” will get us.









JJ    Tue, Jan 10,  at 11:56 AM

To: Ben Smith <Ben@[redacted].com>




First off:

My heart really goes out to you two for what you went through. How  horrible!

As for what you said about “…what is the alternative??”

Well this goes to the core of the problem IMO. Please take a look at the attached file “John 6.68 explained” if you can. I felt like just writing it out in a doc file to make it easier.

You also said: “You have no idea how aligned I can be with this “alternative” thinking.I grew up in the “truth”… I dont know anything else…Many times I feel dissatisfied with answers…I’m just not sure where all of this “thinking” will get us.”

Well there is a great article from a 1946 WT attached as a jpg. Look at it now if you can. I have learned SO MUCH in the last year from just reading and studying the Bible with a truly open mind and heart. 2 Timothy 3:16,17 says that all we need is his Word for the man of God to be fully complete. I’m not sure what the future holds and I certainly don’t have all the answers. And I don’t want to undermine your faith or love for God- please don’t think that’s what  I am trying to do. I just can no longer worship an Organization- it   sickens me. My faith has been getting stronger, not weaker- and initially I was very angry about finding out some horrible things that the Org has done, etc. Like lives being ruined, people dying,      belonging to the United Nations for 10 years, etc.

But now I’m trying to move past those feelings and just serve Jah  and Jesus as best I can and leave it in their hands. If you want to   know more that’s fine. If you don’t, that’s ok too bro.





2 attachments




John6.68 explained.doc







Ben Smith <Ben@[redacted].com> Wed, Jan 11,  at 5:07 AM

To:  JJ

JJ, my friend, my brother.



Hear me out for a second.  Try not to read this defensively.   Im sure its going to be hard to do though.  But try to understand I am speaking strictly as a friend….and nothing more.

Here is the deal.

I personally don’t need all this research.  Not that I am blindly following,… but because of a basic point. And again…. please try to read this knowing I am your friend… nothing more.

Here it is:  This kind of thinking does nothing but divide… not unite.



We have aligned ourselves with a group/organization/channel (whatever you want to call it) that has showed us the TRUTH of the bible. Without that channel, we wouldnt know what we know. Do I agree with everything that is said by the WT Society?  – No. But without it, no one is at the helm.   No one as a global united-in-bible-truth is encouraging Jehovahs Kingdom as the solution to mankinds problems.  No one is globally preaching this TRUTH of the bible we have come to believe and apply in our lives.


When we start to become vocally critical of what the WT Society is teaching or proclaiming… then we are dividing. We will then start to decide what is right and what is wrong. We will start to pick and choose. How does that keep unity?



In an email back, you picked at choosing of words by saying, “there has always been an organization”. My choosing of words may have been the best.  I apoligize. To correct the thought, … There has always been a channel that God has used exclusively throughout bible history.  And that channel has always been thru a UNITED GROUP of followers.  One Adam and Eve, One Noah’s Ark, One Group left Egypt, One rule was ruled with Kings & Judges, One Jesus, One way of teaching, One group of united Christians…. why would there not be ONE UNITED GROUP united in these last days?



If you do not believe the “organization / Society” whatever you choose to call it, …then who is the Faithful Slave? If you do not believe the Faithful Slave is an organization or channel Jehovah is using today, …what is our hope? If we do not have hope or trust that there is an organization or channel, and think we can just serve God on our own… aren’t we like the world in that thinking?



You used the phrase “worship an organization”.

I can already hear you explain why you chose this phrase…but true Christians do not worship an organization. We worship Jehovah God.  And JWs believe that the organization known as the Watchtower Society is leading the helm in this worship. Do they say things that are goofy and seem stuffy or arrogant….absolutely!

Does it annoy me?  ABSOLUTELY!

But…. that kind of stuff, it minimal.  The truth of the bible is STILL taught. Are there causalities among the followers…. yep!   But there is in any organization.  Even in bible times.


So… what do we do?  If we feel annoyances? We just have to stay patient.  Stay steady. Am I serving?  No.    Do I have intentions of reaching out again? Not at this time.  Why?  I feel similar to you.

BUT…. there is no where else to go?  Just as Peter said to Jesus, who else is teaching truth?


Until there is another organization or channel that is actively preaching, living clean morals, not involved with politics or mans wars, ….this is ALL we have.  This is the UNITED GROUP we need to be close to.  We can’t be looking for cracks to expose.  This will just divide, not unite.


If there is another group that is united in bible truth and is doing all those things, then they have alot of work to do.  They should be knocking on my door.  When they do, I will give them my attention.


Has there been reform in the past?  Yes…but it was foretold. And there was also a group that was aware of its foretold-ing, and were awaiting patiently, while remaining obedient within the current structure, until the reform was obviously here to them.

But for now, this type of thinking you are aligning yourself with… divides. Divides the congregation you dwell among. Divides the family that preaches Jahs truth you have. This is not the kind of dividing Jesus talked about.  This division is what Paul talked about.

Going down this road with eventually lead you to a lonely place. Again Bro.   I am only saying this stuff to help. Im sure you have thoughts against this kind of thinking as you read this. Im not here to argue the specific points out. There is no where else to go (right now) than the group we have aligned ourselves with for so long.  Until then, we really have to be patient.



I certainly hope you dont take offense to any of this.  I hope you see its just in your best interest….as i know you have mine.







[redacted]   Wed, Jan 11,  at 7:14 AM

To: Ben Smith <Ben@[redacted].com>

Its ok Ben. I’m not offended in the least. Your responses are conditioned ones and I am familiar with them.


I feel the Org is the one that has divided us. They have placed themselves in-between Jehovah and Jesus. They say we must come to THEM to get saved. Yet the Scriptures do not support this. Jesus himself was disfellowshipped by the Pharisees, the leaders of “The Organization” of that day. You and your wife were wrongly shunned and DFed by them as well so I know you can relate.


I’m disappointed you don’t feel the need to do more research or really read what I sent, but that’s entirely your conscience bro. I concluded my last email by saying if you didn’t want to learn more then that was okay…so I’ll stick to that.


Take care until next time we talk.








Ben Smith <Ben@[redacted].com> Wed, Jan 11,  at 8:05 AM

To: [redacted]



“Conditioned ones” sounds like “brainwashed” to me.  :-)

Or… one of the “text-book” lemmings that are so prevalent in the congregation. I was really hoping to sound like a friend who totally relates…and is sad to see you are so troubled by it all.



I have never been a deep study guy… EVER. Its just my personality.  It really has nothing to do what you are sending me… so please dont think otherwise. I know we have been encouraged to study the deeper things… nope. Not me.  Too much confuses me.

But, I have been around.  I know what seems right and what seems wrong.  Or at least what appears to be on what I do know. I did look at a few of the things you sent.  Its all very interesting.  And like I said, I don’t disagree with them.  They feel DEAD ON.


But again… the problem to all of this is that even though it all seems DEAD ON… there is no ONE UNITED channel with it all. So… for now… it all appears like a distraction. I look more at the BIGGER picture, than all the little pieces. For now…I can’t accept that there ISN’T a ONE channel. Maybe I’m wrong for thinking that.  Maybe I’m wrong for not investigating it.  Maybe I’m too burned.


I mean seriously dude… are you not one of “Jehovah’s Witnesses” anymore? My elder friend claims he is not.  He has left, what we have called for so long, “the Truth”. Doesn’t attend meetings, service, association… gone.   He was, for the longest time, my best friend.



Are heading in that direction too? I’m not being judgemental… or even trying to figure how to interact with you in the future (as so many JWs do – they will either try to fix, or shun)  – I am just curious what your big plan is.   …again as a friend.

All of this is just me being a friend.  … not even really being a “brother”.   If you understand what I mean.







JJ    Wed, Jan 11,  at 11:22 PM

To: Ben Smith <Ben@[redacted].com>




I didn’t intend to be offensive at all in my initial statement on

the last email. I don’t think of you as a lemming or anything like

that. I know you have been around and have seen a lot. And you are

being very open minded and non-judgemental and a true friend. I need

all the friends I can get lol!



I’m still one of Jehovah’s Witnesses, and as has been brought out,

Jehovah has had Witnesses for him for thousands of years and he

always will. As has Jesus too. (Revelation 17:6, “the witnesses of

Jesus”) I have slowed down in my meeting attendance due to cognitive

dissonance, but I do listen in on every meeting via the internet

hookup our congregation has setup. I read every magazine as soon as

it comes out and I read the Bible every day and am learning the

basics of Biblical Greek, which is fascinating to me. I can now

sound out the words from the Kingdom Interlinear which is really

cool, and I have a Bible app on my iPad that lets me pop up the

Greek definitions from Strong’s Concordance quickly.



The fact that you acknowledge that what I’ve brought out and learned

in my studies is “DEAD ON” shows me that you sense that the Matrix

is all around you, and the mind control that is going on within the




I have talked on the phone and via email to about two dozen other

brothers that are former elders and servants- they stepped down due

to conscience reasons. I have talked to (and met) an older brother

that knew many of these ones. He has corroborated much of what I have learned.

COs, even DOs have resigned as well. Did you know that the elder’s

manual has a paragraph in it that says if an elder commits

fornication or other serious sin and hides it for several years but

is repentant when it comes to light, he can continue to be an elder

and not lose his privileges- and the friends will never even know or

be told about it. (I can supply a scan of the page if you wish to

see it; and I personally saw this happen once when I was an elder)

Yet a repentant publisher would lose all privileges and not even be

allowed to comment let alone serve!  Something is terribly wrong and

this indeed does supply large pieces of the “big picture”.



Two Governing Body members were dismissed due to being homosexuals

in the 1980s. One of them was also  accused of pedophilia, Leo

Greenlees. They were not DFed, or even publicly reproved.  I have

listened to an interview of the man that claims he was abused by

this brother. He sounds credible, but of course this is unconfirmed

as Leo is now deceased. Another GB member stepped down due to

conscience matters, and was offered a $10,000 sum of money and

special pioneer status for the rest of his life upon leaving. He

declined the offer.



But you don’t have to take my word for it. Read the attached file

and judge for yourself. It is one of the most balanced and eye

opening things I have ever read. It is not filled with slander or

half-truths, or anger or malice.  I know that you’ve mentioned that

you aren’t a big “study-person” and I get that, but this IMO is one

of the most important things in our lives we could ever investigate.















Ben Smith <Ben@[redacted].com> Thu, Jan 12,  at 4:48 AM

To:  JJ




I appreciate everything your saying.  I am not doubting that there

are bad things going on… but they are going on everywhere.






Are these stories true?  I’M SURE THEY ARE.  You keep telling me

these like as if I dont believe it.  I DO.



My point is… where are we going to go?  What else is there right




I truly believe the organization is affected as much as any other

organization out there.. ..for Gods sake this is SATANs world.

To think for a second that we are complete free from any influence

is just crazy thinking to me.  We aren’t.

I’ve seen and heard about stuff like this all my life…. its

irritating for someone like me who grew up in the “truth” and

believe we live in a “spiritual paradise” now.   …and this kind of

crap goes on.



My dad was an elder… a PO… for years… during that time… he was a homosexual!!!  And mom wasn’t allowed to be “scriptually free” during that time, because homosexuality sex wasn’t considered adultery!!! Can you believe it??   And so yes…another victim of what call…

The Club Rules.



This is the deal.  Jehovahs Witnesses is a club.  Its a fact.  That’s what we are.  This is what I have always told my kids. Its an exclusive club.  Perfect??  NOPE… but its a club…and for the most part… we like it! And the membership rules change.  And some of the member leaders are scumbags.  (My ex-wife who was a pioneer was sleeping with my long  time elder friend… nice!)  But… if we want to be in the club… which we must because me and  you are still here…. we have to follow the rules. (or… if we dont agree with them, we stay out the member leader positions, and not announce we we are doing privately…why do we have to do this… because we want to stay in the club!)



The club gives us a purpose in life.  It gives us community

interaction.  Being a club with purpose and sharing that purpose

with others is a fundamental thing we humans need.   A sense of

belonging to a higher purpose.



My question over and over.  (and Im not just saying this to you)

Where else are we going to go? (right now)



Because amid all the crap that may go on behind the scenes… I

believe this organization is (and here is the key word) TRYING to do

the best it can.  I truly believe it is TRYING.   This stories will

make you think there is some devious scam going on.  And if thats

what you believe, then you shouldn’t be in the club.

But I think, as a rule, as a fundamental rule, JWs are TRYING to do

the right thing.





JJ    Thu, Jan 19,  at 2:51 PM

To: Ben Smith <Ben@[redacted].com>





Sorry to take so long to get back to you- I’ve been praying about it and just thinking a lot about what you said. Your honesty and candor in confiding some of the things you’ve gone through is truly amazing to me. There is so much junk in the world these days.


You said: “I truly believe the organization is affected as much as any other organization out there…”


If that’s the case, then belonging to ANY group, or “club” as you have put it, is ok. I did some research and found that the Mormon’s and the Catholics both have used John 6:68 to say to dissenting members “Where else will you go? There is nowhere else that has the truth!” They say this with all honesty and sincerity, just as you say it.


Our particular club has caused the death of thousands of its members due to human ideas on blood, malawi, organ transplants, suicides  from the extreme shunning, etc. If it’s just about memberghip in a club, like a gym, then we can take our business elsewhere- what difference would it make?



Did you know that the Bible Students are alive and well and there are about 1 million members worldwide? They are trying very hard to follow Christ also. So are many, many other Christian groups. They are trying to live a daily life of devotion to God. So is TRYING enough?



Trying to do the best one can is commendable. (Matthew 7:21-23)  I have researched for many hundreds of hours and discovered that the  607 date is a sham. Jerusalem fell around 587. The dating is all off   and the WT are the ONLY ones spouting 607 because 1914 DEPENDS upon the date 607. Did you know that 1874 was first predicted as  Armageddon? When it passed, Russell attributed it to an invisible             presence. Then 1914 was chosen using complex (and ridiculous)  calculations based on pyramidology and the width of stones and  dimensions of the pyramids. Once 1914 came and went, it was said  that Jesus came invisibly then.



(It is interesting that Harold Camping predicted August of  as the date of Armageddon. When it passed he said that it had begun invisibly, but that October would be the actual date when all  would see it. This also came and went.)



Then Rutherford launched the “Millions now living will never die”  campaign in the early 1920s. The date of armageddon was reset to 1925. When that came and went Rutherford admitted he had made an  “ass of himself” (WT 1984 10/1 p. 24)



After that other dates were hinted at. Then Fred Franz engineered  the 1975 date and many publications state that 1975 was going to be  the end. (See


Then when I was younger we used to calculate that a generation was 70-80 years based on Psalms 90:10 and preach that 1914 + 70 to 80  years means that it must be coming soon. I told this to countless  people in service when I was pioneering. I was lying to all of them!  I was misled. Then in 1995, “new light” arrives just in time  (1914+80) and the meaning of what a “generation” is was changed.,  for the first in a number of confusing ways. Now the generations are  said to be “overlapping” and hardly any of us even understand what  that means.



Deuteronomy 18:20-22 gives a litmus test for whether a prophet is a  true one or a false one. It says:

‘However, the prophet who presumes to speak in my name a word that I  have not commanded him to speak or who speaks in the name of other  gods, that prophet must die. And in case you should say in your  heart: “How shall we know the word that Jehovah has not spoken?” When the prophet speaks in the name of Jehovah and the word does not  occur or come true, that is the word that Jehovah did not speak. With presumptuousness the prophet spoke it. You must not get frightened at him.’



So EVERY single date the Society has predicted has been in error. Why would 1914 be correct when the others weren’t? That is simple  logic. So I am no longer frightened of the men that run the WT. They  have no power or authority over me. I love the local friends in my congregation, and I love you. “DFed” or not, I would have happily  had you and your wife over for dinner, because that is loving. That is what Christ would do. My conscience tells me the rightness of it.



My faith in Jehovah and Christ has not wavered. My love for the

Bible is stronger than ever. But I have no faith in this

organization anymore. It is a “club” as you say. No better or worse

than others. A club that is trying to do what’s right, succeeding no

more or less than many others.



How could they possibly be guided exclusively by God’s holy spirit

and make so many mistakes? Predict so many false and ignorant things

over the many many years of their existence? My questions to you are




What have you learned in the last five years that has really made it

possible for you to understand the Bible better? What benefits have

the meetings brought to you personally? How many real friends do you

have? With how many can you have substantive conversations? How have

your mental, emotional, and spiritual needs been met by the

arrangement? What would you have done if you lived in the ten-tribe

kingdom of Israel? How would you have maintained your faith in God

and aided your family to do the same?


We are all ultimatley on our own when it comes to worshipping God.

His son is the Judge of all things now. (John 5:22-23)



You said: “My point is… where are we going to go?  What else is

there right now.”



The answer to that is that it is not a matter of WHERE. It is a

matter of WHOM. John 6:68 doesn’t say where. Peter says that JESUS

has sayings of everlasting life. Not the WT…not any man. The Bible

is inspired. The publications are not. In many cases they have

proved to be horribly, horribly wrong, to the point of killing many

of their adherents. Does that strike you as God’s direction? Would

he want a brother to refuse a blood fraction and die, then the next

month an article comes out in a magazine saying it’s ok to take that

particular fraction? THAT HAS HAPPENED. It is not God’s will for us

to follow the writings of men. (Ps 146:3,4; Psalms 118:8,9)



2 Tim 3:16,17 says: “All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial

for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for

disciplining in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be fully

competent, completely equipped for every good work.”



This means we have all that we need when we hold the Bible in our

hand. The scripture says we don’t require anything more to ascertain

God’s will for us. We are completely equipped.



Well I suppose I am writing a book and that was not my intention. We

have been going back and forth for a number of emails now and I am

happy that we can be open-minded about the whole thing. It is nice

to be able to get some of these things off my chest as it has been

very hard to learn some of these things for me. I just wish that we

would be allowed to respectfully disagree. To not be banned from

speaking or simply questioning certain things…but there is no room

for that in the WT Organization. If there was, many of the thousands

of us that are dissidents might not have to hide, and real, positive

change might come. Thanks for reading this far lol.








Ben Smith <Ben@[redacted].com> Fri, Jan 20,  at 5:49 AM

To:  JJ

Hi JJ,



You are on a mission dude.  :-)  haha    Listen… I totally understand where your coming from.  It doesn’t seem right, everything you say.  I don’t disagree with you on ANYTHING here.  I know much of  what you said that goes on (if true) seems ridiculous and extremely irritating.



Except…what I have trouble with … in all your conclusions… is  that you are suggesting there to be no group supported by Jehovah… escepially any group that is actually DOING the will that Jesus said would happen:  Preaching!  Who is preaching WORLDWIDE with a UNIFIED message?

Because then shouldn’t you be grouping up with other Ex-JWs (which is where you are heading you know) and preach the Kindgom message? Or… are you telling me we dont have to?



And then are you claiming to say that despite the entire bible

history of there always being ONE GROUP (I will refrain from using

the word “organization”) One Adam and Eve, One Ark, One Group that

left Egypt, One lineage of Kings approved by Jehovah, One Jesus, One

Group of his apostles….. are you claiming that people can be their

own entity in what (at least you believed for years and years – not

sure where you stand on that one now) we believe to be the “last


You can do your own thing, without an organization to communicate

with and pull everyone together worldwide?



Or what is your new thought on that?



I know I am sounding a bit facetious here, but you have to be in my

shoes here.

You and I have been JWs for years…and the path you are

constructing for yourself with guide you to leave.

And you may look at this (from your new vantage point) as


But (and you have to look at this from my vantage point) you are

leaving what we were unified in at one time.








JJ    Tue, Jan 24,  at 3:51 PM

To: Ben Smith <Ben@[redacted].com>




I can see that you are satisfied with where you are and how you are

worshiping God, and I respect that. I’m not going to pressure you to

investigate something that you don’t feel inclined to investigate.

Your questions are valid ones…but if a person is not willing or

interested in digging deeply into God’s word and researching them,

then the answers would be practically meaningless if simply recited

to them. (Proverbs 2:3-5)



The book I sent you a few emails back, Crisis of Conscience, is

AMAZING. But it is scary, and it is hard to face these things. It

sat on my hard drive for about six months before I finally had the

nerve to read this “banned” book. It was one of the most eye-opening

things I’ve ever read. There was no slander, half-truths or anger. A

mild, humble, Godly man (Ray Franz) wrote it, and that shines

through. Ray Franz never “went apostate” and until he died he had

respect for Jehovah’s Witnesses. You don’t have to take my words for




When you have time, consider reading these verses:

1 Corinthians 4:6

1 John 4:1-3

1 Thes 5:21

Proverbs 1:5



The attached doc files answer your question/point re: “one group one

club one organization”. The simple fact is that the Bible does not

contain ANY scriptures using the word “organization”. There is not a

single verse that says you can only serve God one way and with one

group of people. The apostles tried to stop a man that was

performing works and preaching in Jesus name, but he was acting

independantly of them. Jesus said to leave him alone. (Luke 9:49,

50) The WT society certainly wants us to believe that only they have

the keys to the Kingdom, so that they can maintain the maximum

amount of control over their members. They rule our lives and our

consciences- you have said as much to me several times. They have

gone beyond the things that are written. This is a sin of the

highest caliber. Please read Matthew 15:3-6 if you can, and see if

it fits or not. It is not about trying to emulate the way that the

WT says we should do things. My goal is to imitate the first century

congregation and the words and writings of Jesus and Paul. It is

here that we have gone off the tracks.



If you are able to research this the way you did the freedom to

marry topic you would be a richer man in wisdom and knowledge.

Knowledge is truly power. I have spent hundreds of hours studying

and praying about this and it is not a conclusion I came to lightly

or rashly.



Some of the GB haven’t even believed in 1914, such as Brother

Swingle, and Brother Knorr. One current member doesn’t agree with

the blood prohibition and knows that lives are being lost for no

scriptural reason. Like the Titanic, they don’t know how to turn the

boat around, or they are too stubborn to do so. The GB must have a

2/3 majority vote to effect any doctrinal change, so the hardliners

continue to maintain the status quo. It saddens me to feel the need

to leave the organization- but I will never leave my Heavenly Father

Jehovah and my Savior Jesus. I will wait on Jehovah- but that’s not

the same as waiting on an organization of imperfect men.



I don’t claim to have all the answers- no man does. And I have

humbled myself in the last year more than I ever have in my entire

life. I walked away from the [congregation] position [and] from other privileges. I did it not because

of going off half cocked or out of anger. There are at least a

hundred thousand Witnesses (in my estimations) out there that pray for Jehovah to

reform, fix, or soften the pharisaical legalism that now

unfortunately permeates the policies and leadership in New York. You

can Google “conscious class”, “strugglers”, “awake witnesses”, etc.

to find out more on the magnitude of brothers and sisters that feel

this way. These are not apostates. They are your brothers and

sisters and likely a few of them sit in nearby seats in your own




So I guess I may be forcing my opinion on you and I hope that is not

the way it comes across. You’re a smart guy and you know what you

are doing. And ultimately we all have to follow our heart and our

Bible-trained conscience, which is what I am striving to do.









1 Corinthians 4:3-5: Now to me it is a very trivial matter that I

should be examined by YOU or by a human tribunal…For I am not

conscious of anything against myself. Yet by this I am not proved

righteous, but he that examines me is Jehovah. Hence do not judge

anything before the due time, until the Lord comes, who will both

bring the secret things of darkness to light and make the counsels

of the hearts manifest, and then each one will have his praise come

to him from God.






Ben Smith <Ben@[redacted].com> Wed, Jan 25,  at 6:40 AM

To:  JJ

“Satisfied with where (I am) with how (I am) worshiping God.”  –

Dude… you have no idea how I really feel on that actually.

My feelings on “worshiping God” are very different from your

feelings right now, and it has nothing to do with JWs…or anything

your saying.  But … thats me.  Thats something I’m working out…

however I do that…whenever I do that.  I have WHOLE other issues

that “at the core” doesnt make sense…and again it has NOTHING to

do what JWs teach.



There is really not much I feel I can say to you Bro.  I love ya …

but you are on a mission.

But its a mission without unified purpose.

And you are very critical of JWs…the very ones that brought you

90% of what you believe as a “worshiper of God”.  (at least I would

hope you still do).



I’m sorry….and I dont mean this to sound mean (but you may take it

that way).  And I am ONLY saying this as a long time friend.

But…You sound like one of these born again Christians I used to

work with.  They walk around with a smug smile on their face like as

if they have a secret they would love to share, but they do it in a

pompous high-minded way that just doesnt feel like God could really

be supporting that attitude as well.  “I’m so holy, I am so in touch

with God, I will show you the way.”… I used to feel sick around

those people.  (That kinda sounds mean.  And I dont mean it to.  I

honestly dont think ill of you.  I am just giving you an honest

reaction….take it or leave it.  I would think – because it sounds

mean – you will leave it and not even consider it.)



I know when we went thru the whole “Is Ann free to remarry” issue.

I became highly critical of the GB and WT Society.

And honestly, I am not recovered.  I am not walking around now like

a congregational lemming and doing “what I am told”.

Because in the long run, it doesnt matter.



But…. your stance just doesnt totally make sense to me.

I understand your issues.  I understand your problems with things

taught.  I understand your beefs.

But… (and maybe you cant see it because you are in the THICK of

it, like I was)….

Where are you going with all this?



You mean to tell me that your new found faith allows you to NOT


Dude…there WAS an organization in bible times.  There always as

been.  SURE the word “organization…but there always has been an

organized way to serve God.  There has ALWAYS been structure.

Even Jesus spoke to assemblies of people.  Groups…all guided from

a singular source.



There WAS a GOVERNING BODY back in the days of the apostles.  You

can’t refute that.

Jesus was no longer on the earth, and the apostles were following

the command to PREACH AND TEACH, and BAPITIZING… until the


And the apostles carried that out and formed congregations – guided

by a GB and had visiting men to keep the congregations in check.

So… we don’t have to do that anymore?  Does the GB have the wrong

view of that?



You mean to tell me that the GB wants “control over their members”?

ok… for what reason???

Money?? Fame?  What?  What would be their motive then if its not to

“try to do the right thing” in the eyes of God?  And I don’t mean

TRY like just do a half-way, good enough job, but TRY in the sense

of desiring to do what is right, reading the bible, praying,

meditating on it, and them follow the examples set out the in Holy

Scripture to guide the masses like the first century Christians did.

Why would they want to “control” the congregations?  What do they

get out of it?  There is nothing rewarding monetarily as far as I

see.  (Heck I havent donated in I cant tell you when.)  So then its

“mind control” just to say they have it??  None of your reasoning

makes sense when you step back from all these details you are

filling your mind with.



You pick on every point I bring up … but never really answer it

simply Bro.

Your details are very detailed, but complex, and no simple answer…

which is what I have always found to be the very source of TRUTH.

Truth is honest and simple.  You dont need to be a research-aholic

to know when you’ve heard the truth….on ANY matter.



Do I believe 100% what the GB believes?  Honestly, No.

Do I hope there is a change of views on matters that I have to keep

“secret”?  Yes!

But… deep down, I think there is something the JWs STILL HAVE …

the members try to serve God the best way we have been instructed.

If the GB is wrong, then its them that face Jehovah’s wrath… not

us as members.



I am not totally satified with how things are…and some things DO

seem wrong.

But I think the CORE of what is taught is the truth.  You are

dis-crediting that.  And JWs are preaching the world over.  No over

religion has the non-paid staff to do that WORLD-WIDE.



Are there problems in the congregations and with its members?  SURE!

But show me another group that is EXCEEDING in member retention, and

growing, and still doing the same work …that is in harmony with

bible direction.



I know… you won’t really honestly take to heart what I am saying.

You are in a mind-space that probably is condescendingly looking

down on me.  (I really don’t think you will admit it… I certainly

wouldnt of back 6 years ago.  Everybody was wrong…



But… I am still your friend.  :-)  … and I certainly hope you

can see I am trying to be one.








JJ    Tue, Jan 25,  at 9:59 PM

To: Ben Smith <Ben@[redacted].com>



I took to heart what you said. I prayed about it. I am not trying to come across arrogant or condescending at all. I must be though at least a little or you would not have said that, and I apologize. We all must humble ourselves and that’s something will work on. You are my friend- thank you.


Your early words:  My feelings on “worshiping God” are very different from your feelings right now, and it has nothing to do with JWs…or anything your saying.  …I have WHOLE other issues that “at the core” doesnt make sense…and again it has NOTHING to do what JWs teach.


Wow- this tells me you are not sharing something major. (Which is your right of course, it may not be any of my business)  I wonder if it has to do with evolution or lack of faith in the Bible due to scientific discoveries, etc.? I can tell you that I studied the whole flood thing in great detail and have plenty to chew on on that topic. Would you mind telling me what it is? Am I right in my guess? Or way off? I only ask because I care…




As for your other points: I believe the majority of the same things other Witnesses do. Jesus died for our sins, his Father is YHWH, Jehovah, and he is the true God. We don’t go to a burning hell, etc. We have to share our faith and preach, which I do regularly.  (My only beef with the WT is on HOW we preach. Knocking on mostly-empty doors, driving around in a mini-van with 6-8 of us and making RVs maybe getting out once every 45 minutes, then taking a Starbuck break at 11:30 to finish the morning so we can get our hours in is a problem for me. For many it has become a “form of Godly devotion” as 2 Tim 3:5 says. If we really wanted to “get the word out” we should be running internet ads, TV ads, billboards, podcasts, radio and TV shows, etc. This is how to truly reach people initially- THEN we setup Bible studies and face to face meetings. It would be 1000% more efficient IMO.)


It currently takes about 40 years of publisher hours to baptize ONE new Witness.  It’s a crazy amount of time to make one convert. (A guy has done the math on it based on yearbook stats- I’ll get you the references if you like, it is fascinating.) Also, we have one of the highest rates of turnover of any religion- the Pew foundation just recently did a study and polled thousands of people for it. The link is here:,8599,1716987,00.html


Anyway, you made a really good point in your last email about it all being very simple. It is. Jesus died for our sins. He is “the way the truth and the life” and if we put our faith in him we will have everlasting life. Jehovah is our heavenly father and we must love him w heart soul and mind and our neighbor as ourselves. If we try our best to follow these things we can receive the “free gift” of everlasting life. That’s it…


We don’t need hundreds of rules, unwritten laws, creeds, and masters telling us what and how we should study, preach, etc. That’s what the Catholic Church setup and began over a thousand years ago. Martin Luther, William Tyndale and others stood up to it, and were branded heretics. Jesus himself was DFed from the synagogue, God’s “Org” at the time. Jeremiah preached against the leaders, God’s “one channel” in his day. Was he in the wrong to act independently of the nation? He had to. What if you and your family lived in the ten-tribe kingdom and the king was telling you all to worship Baal? Would you feel compelled to go along with it bc it was God’s organization? It would have been a test and it would have been very hard to know what to do….


The notion of a GB in the first century is a fiction. The words “governing body” do not appear in any Bible. Just as the word Trinity doesn’t… Don’t take my word for it bro…I have an mp3 (and a transcript) of Brother Fred Franz, 4th president of the society, in 1975 giving a talk at Gilead graduation. I’ve listened to it, it’s him. In his talk he PROVES from Acts that there was no GB directing Paul. He gave this talk shortly before the governing body was formed (On Jan 1, 1976, according to the Proclaimers book) because he was against sharing the power with a body of men. But of course that undermines the power and authority of these men. Please don’t take my word for it- you can listen to it for yourself. If you google it you will find the clip otherwise let me know and I will send it to you.


You said: “I know you won’t really honestly take to heart what I am saying. You are in a mind-space that probably is condescendingly looking down on me.”

Nothing could be further from the truth- I have analyzed these points and heard them many times and have really prayed about them- and sometimes it comes down to opinion and I respect yours. I DO NOT think that I’m smarter or wiser than you or others. It’s not about that. But I feel that we have been lied to and fed mind-controlling information our whole lives.

Not bc the brothers running the Org are evil- they are not, I was there for a few years. But they are imperfect men, trying to bolster and maintain a structure that is man-made. (See Jeremiah 10:23) The WT Bible and Tract Society is a CORPORATION. And what do corporations do? They seek to grow and to increase their bottom lines. This is what the WTS is right now- not an evil empire, but a publishing corporation worth over 1 billion dollars. And once they sell the Brooklyn properties they will be worth over TWO billion soon. Are they giving their money to help feed the starving and the poor? (Which was about half of the work that Jesus and the Apostles did BTW, besides preaching) No. They hold onto their wealth and power and seek to multiply it. We of the rank and file are told to seek first the kingdom and simplify- bc the end is near. Yet they plan and setup building projects that will take many years to complete. And the building and KH remodeling never ends bc it is very profitable. Free labor, donated materials in many cases…then, downsize and sell at a 5-10 fold profit.


They are trying to save up and remodel our KH right now…but there is almost nothing wrong with it except we need new carpet. …Plenty of seating. Good parking… but they are going to knock out walls, and spend $280K to “upgrade”. Several have said, “well it’ll be nice, but why are we doing this…” It is bc this is one of the primary ways the Society makes money. They own every single KH now. It used to be that the local friends owned them- not anymore. The WTS lends us money and then when it is payed back, they own the KH bc it is transferred into the WTS name. (When I was an elder we signed our KH over to the WTS by putting them on the deed. That is how it is done now.) Not on contributions lol…you said you haven’t given for some time, and you are making fairly good money. 😉


This might sound harsh but its that way it is done now. Money and contributions are tracked in great detail and talked about A LOT at Bethel. I remember that distinctly while I was there.


I’m not trying to be negative- in fact I have been working towards focusing less on flaws and more just on my ministry and my study. I love to study the scriptures and I have been trying to learn Biblical Greek. (I’m not doing so well lol its HARD) I look up and read articles in the WT Library almost daily, and I also read Bible commentaries like the ones quoted in the publications. There is a wealth of information to be found in used book stores. I guess my point is that I am learning new things all the time and my goal is to seek truth and do what Jehovah wants me to do, to be used by him. That is my “mission” as you say lol. The myth that an “apostate” is a weak, doubting person that barely prays or loves Bible study is perpetuated by the publications. I love the truth and am not against any of the friends. I think we all should have the freedom to worship in the way that we feel in our cores is correct, without fear of repercussions. Jehovah knows, and he his King Christ is the judge.


If I can encourage you, or help you or any other of my brothers or sisters, that is awesome. That’s what I love to do. I am not trying to “wake up” any Witnesses that don’t want to talk about it or don’t have an itch to scratch. But Ben you do have some itches that you are scratching and I appreciate that you are a thinking person and I love that about you.


To conclude, what is it that is this “core” question you have? You have agreed with so much of what I have said, it blows me away- it amazes me frankly. Hats off to you, and please know that this morning on my way to work I said a prayer for you and your family for several minutes. I hope you can do the same for me.


Your long-distance buddy and fellow-debater,






Ben Smith <Ben@[redacted].com> Wed, Jan 26,  at 7:42 AM

To:  JJ


Your comments are all very fascinating, as I have told you before. And I’m glad to see you are not (completely) distancing yourself from the JWs.


I really don’t want to detailed thoughts on my other issue.  Its has to do with Prayer… fundamental stuff.

Nothing with this doctrine or that teaching.  Fundamental stuff that all religions say, and honestly NONE of us have an answer…just an opinion.  There is no proof of anything, just guesses.


Basically though JJ, thru all of this you still still seem like you are highlighting what JWs are doing wrong or have done, …and missing what they are doing right.

If you are claiming that the reason the GB asks for donations so that they can build Kingdom Halls… THATS their big purpose?  To buy property?  Really?

Thats the WHOLE purpose of all this preaching and teaching … is to buy property!


And that article from Time Magazine saying we has a turn over of 2/3s…dude.  seriously?  It was based on ones that SPOKE to that PEW organization (which was 35,000 people… which seriously how many JWs would you know that are in good standing in the congregation are actually going to be involved in a religious survey?… and how many out of those 35,000 would even be (or even no longer be) JWs out of the 35,000?   This is hardly a gauge dude.  That is so one sided its amazing you would even quote that.


And dude, yes the term “Governing Body” is not in the bible, But there was a group of “older men” that shepard-ed the congregation.


Which makes me think you are blinded to basic facts like that because you are on a mission!

It seems like your splitting hairs, nit-picking on specifics which is clouding basic principles.


But whatever… I’m not a huge reader.  Not a huge fact finder.  Not a big studier…. and have NO plan to be.

The truth of the bible should be simple and clear.

And ones representing the clear bible truths should be obviously NOT getting involved in Politics, War, etc “things of the world”.  (Or maybe your going to tell me that bible student can now.)


Thru everything you have said, it does not make sense to me that in a time that seems to parallal events that Jesus said would be the last days, and during a time when a group of people are preaching FREE OF CHARGE despite the quality each hour is spent, and its members sincerely, for the most part, try to do the right thing according to what they are learning from the bible, and one of the extremely few organizations that puts JEHOVAH’s name on HIGH above his son JESUS, and doe not teach doctrines that are not in harmony with the bible….

Its hard to believe that its totally acceptable to be rogue David Carradine Kung Fu types, and roam the earth with a message that is strictly one that is not united with another (to the best of their ability) organized group of believers.


THAT my friend, does not make any SIMPLE and CLEAR sense to me.

Its always been a common thread in the bible.

Regardless of what you are trying to prove with these little details.


And my whole OVERALL view is… if I’m (or any JW) is wrong.  Oh well.

Its the best I have to offer.  Jehovah strike me down if this is the wrong attitude, but its what I have right now.


When a pair of door-to-door visitors come to my door and claim to be of a new group of reformed JWs, that is growing, have the same beliefs, and is carrying out the preaching work the same way, but things have been slightly revised… THEN, I will take notice.


Call me blind.  Call me stupid.  Call me deliberated staying in the dark.  Whatever.

But compared to whatever alternative you are living (or semi-offering) it doesn’t sound better in structure.

It sounds like you answer to now one but your inner calling… and that doesnt seem right either.


Have you ever seen the movie “Frailty”?  It’s R  :-)   …but I find the whole subject of God’s voice directing someone, fascinating.   What people will do, on their own, when they feel God is talking to them.

I’m not saying thats you are feeling God is talking you directly  (or heck maybe you do.  LOL)

But what if you felt he was?  How far left of center would you go because you are a rogue, no one to guide or watch you, all in the name of God?



All of this said, strictly as a friend… (I hope you understand that)





Jan 30,  at 4:22 AM, Ben Smith <Ben@[redacted].com> wrote:


[Watch this:]


Even though I agree with many of sentiments, Jesus DID organize his apostles to preach.

They went out in twos and preached from city to city, door to door.


This message of “no religion” seems right, but it at the same time seems very destructive.

Its saying “you dont have to answer to no one – but Jesus”…but Bro, just like the Ethiopian eunuch that said “Really, how could I ever do so, unless someone guided me?” – implies there should always be someone leading.  Someone directing.


If not, we are rogues.  Rebels without a cause.

“Jesus, Jesus, Jesus” is what these Born Again wanders preach.


Be careful dude.


If JWs ARE the religion of choice by Jehovah, however flawed, are you sure you want to be outside the ark?… back down to the city of Jerusalem where the armies didn’t come in and destroy it?…. turning around to see Sodom has been actually destroyed?


Just because things may not make sense, doesn’t mean there isn’t a BIG PICTURE plan.


Your rogue-ness however logical, seems to put you outside… just like this guy in the video.


Your friend…and only said as your friend.







JJ    Tue, Jan 30,  at 2:15 PM

To: Ben Smith <Ben@[redacted].com>



Thanks for sending the vid. That guy’s little rap was kinda lame lol. He means well though I think.


I don’t agree with him- we do need to meet together and all of us can benefit from guidance.  Jesus said “where two or three are gathered, there I am in their midst.” So it’s not about how many, or how big a group it is either IMO.


The WTS has predicted many false dates- 1874, 1914, 1915 (look it up!) 1925, 1975, and 1995 (The generation won’t pass away until 1914+80years). Since all these dates have been in error, what do the Scriptures say about such false predictions?


Deuteronomy 18:20-22:

However, the prophet who presumes to speak in my name a word that I have not commanded him to speak or who speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet must die. And in case you should say in your heart: “How shall we know the word that Jehovah has not spoken?” When the prophet speaks in the name of Jehovah and the word does not occur or come true, that is the word that Jehovah did not speak. With presumptuousness the prophet spoke it. You must not get frightened at him.


So I am no longer frightened of the WTS. They were founded by a sincere man, CT Russell. Many sincere men of God followed after him, although Rutherford was known as an alcoholic and had young female companions that stayed in adjoining rooms with him throughout his world travels, while his wife and son were always left at home. This I have verified myself through many hours of research. (One has reportedly come forward in her old age to acknowledge certain improprieties but I have not verified this.) Today there are many sincere men serving at NY headquarters. But they are not inspired. God does not speak to them as he did to Noah, Moses, and the apostles. They are men who claim to NOT be inspired- yet if you disagree with one of their teachings in the WT you will be shunned and considered an evil person worthy of death at Armageddon.


Throughout the many emails we have exchanged, I have quoted dozens and dozens of scriptures, and cited many WT publications, and other books, websites, and sources.  You on the other hand have never cited any Scriptures, when reasoning with me, not even one. You have shared your opinions and reasonings on things. I do respect your thoughts and ideas, but what does this illustrate? One of us is using the Bible and deep research to arrive at his conclusions. The other is simply trusting his heart and his gut and what he has been told to believe his entire life. It is far easier to expound off the top of our heads and then go back to whatever we were doing five minutes earlier, as opposed to checking the facts and verifying whether what we were told is true or not. This is what the Boreans did in Acts 17:11. They verified and looked up what Paul was telling them, and carefully examined the Scriptures he was quoting to them. This took effort.


You discount Time magazine, and Pew research, both reputable groups with a wave of your hand. Ok fine. You can arrive at the same results by doing some math on the statistics given in the yearbook. (See: ) It is sad but I seriously doubt you will bother to look into the statistics, as you have admitted you are not a study-er or researcher. I challenge you to go outside your comfort zone and set aside time to investigate even this one point. We are talking about our relationship with our Heavenly Father and the everlasting lives of ourselves and our families after all aren’t we? Isn’t this what we tell people out in service? That they owe it themselves to spend the time to investigate their church and their beliefs? Notice these brief quotes from the publications about this:


“The Scriptures show that if we are part of any organization that is bloodguilty before God, we must sever our ties with it if we do not want to share in its sins.”  (United in Worship, 1983, Chap. 20, p. 155, par. 4)


“If, after making an honest investigation, you are less than pleased with what you see, do more than just complain. . .Church members . . .are responsible for what the church says and does. So ask yourself: Am  I willing to share responsibility for everything my church says and does? . . . But your life depends upon being 100 percent sure. . . . Make your choice accordingly.” (Awake!, Sept. 8, 1987, pp. 19-11)


“It is important, then, that you “keep testing whether you are in the faith,” as Paul declared. Keep checking to see whether the things you believe are in keeping with God’s Word. But the question is, Are you willing to put your religion through such a test? There is nothing to fear, because if you have the right religion you can only be reassured by the examination. And if what you believe is not in keeping with the Bible, then you should welcome the truth, because it leads to light and life.” (W/58 05/01 p.261 “Is Your Religion the Right One?”)






It is hard to face the horrible flaws and the hypocrisy in the WT leadership. It is far easier to simply duck down and go along with the flow at the KH, reasoning that “well, as long as I follow the GB and the Org then its on them if we are wrong. Jehovah knows my heart. I don’t need to study hard or try and research and learn more- I know enough and God understands.” But the Bible does not support this! Look at these verses:


(Psalms 118:8,9) It is better to take refuge in Jehovah than to trust in earthling man. It is better to take refuge in Jehovah than to trust in nobles.


(1 John 4:1-3) Beloved ones, do not believe every inspired expression, but test the inspired expressions to see whether they originate with God, because many false prophets have gone forth into the world. YOU gain the knowledge of the inspired expression from God by this: Every inspired expression that confesses Jesus Christ as having come in the flesh originates with God, but every inspired expression that does not confess Jesus does not originate with God.


You said that I might be a “rogue” and a “rebel without a cause”. But wasn’t Jesus spoken of as such by his opposers because he questioned their teachings and broke their man-made rules?  He flatly condemned them when he said:


(Matthew 15:8-9) This people honors me with their lips, yet their heart is far removed from me. It is in vain that they keep worshiping me, because they teach commands of men as doctrines.


This is what many organized religions have done. Built a hierarchy, a structure, created rules or creeds, and compelled there people to follow them. The Catholic church invented this method. And many other churches do the same thing. Try verbalizing some of the feelings you have shared with me in past emails at your Hall with some of the friends…or even one of the elders. You will find yourself in the back room in short order, again facing a tribunal of men that may judge you as worthy of being shunned. You don’t deserve that Ben! You never did the previous time either. You and Ann were good and sincere Christians then, and you still are IMO.



You also said: “If JWs ARE the religion of choice by Jehovah, however flawed, are you sure you want to be outside the ark?”


Well based on all the many many verses and references I’ve cited, and all the enormous flaws that have been pointed out and that you have agreed with in previous emails, I think deep down you already know the answer to this supposition. In Acts 11:26 Christ’s followers were given a name by God himself. The last part reads:


“The disciples were by Divine Providence called Christians.”


They were not called YHWH’s Witnesses. (The name Jehovah was not coined until 1270 by a Spanish monk. See this site for more info: )


They were not called Jesus’ Witnesses either, even though Acts 1:8 does say they were to be Witnesses of Jesus. And Revelation 19:10 says we “have the work of witnessing to Jesus.”


But the point is that we are Christians. The “ark” today is certainly not a man-made belief system or some physical structure, like a Kingdom Hall. That is a fiction written and espoused to keep you under control and asleep in the Matrix of the Org.


I too speak to you AS A FRIEND. I actually prayed before writing this that I not come across as arrogant or high-minded. I am a good for nothing slave as the scripture says, not any better (or worse lol) than you.


This is the truth- the simple truth- that Jesus is our Lord and Savior. He died for us and we can only receive life by putting our faith and our trust in him. This is why his Father sent him, and why Jehovah God approved of him. Once he came to earth everything changed.


Please brother, stop and look up 1 Corinthians 1:22-25 and 2:1-5 right now. It is simple! It is beautiful. Paul said “For I decided not to know anything among YOU except Jesus Christ, and him impaled.” This shows we are saved not through perfect meeting attendance or putting ten hours per month in on a slip of paper, or even in how accurate every single doctrine we believe is. We are saved through union in Christ! Romans 8:1 says:


“Therefore those in union with Christ Jesus have no condemnation.”


Are you in union with Christ my brother? Or are you condemned? Acts 4:12 says:


“Furthermore, there is no salvation in anyone else, for there is not another name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must get saved.”


The memorial is coming up soon. Celebrating it is so important…but would first-century Christians recognize what takes place as anything they ever did? They would find it very strange to see a group assembled in a building and merely looking at the bread and wine as it is ceremonially passed from hand to hand. It certainly does not harmonize with Jesus’ words “take, eat,” and “drink.” How can Christ be our head, but we not be a member of his body? It doesn’t make sense to me. Honestly, can you explain to me from the Bible how it could be otherwise?



Well thank you for reading this far. I have some work I have to get to and have neglected it lol. Pray about these scriptures and what we are discussing. Mediate on them. This is something that I will do too.


In Love,



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100 Comments on Email Exchange with “Ben”

  1. Anonymous says:

    It took me a very long time to accept in the face of facts that the org is nothing but a fake and mis-leads millions. I think you did a fine job, honestly! It is God who draws out not us, we are just tools whom he can use. It is painful to wrap your mind around the FACTS, right? I think we all know that, from reading the emotions many here and on other forums express, it tears them up inside. Dont forget the FEAR the GB instills as well, very powerful. Some feel so lost and distraught for a long time before deciding what to do (I know I did. These things are not easy when coming to conclusions but it will prick out your mind in the middle of the night and eventually you will know when you must decide what to do. Jehovah is so loving and patient with us and will give us peace eventually but it is “pure hell” when your learning TTATT. For about two years (at least from others I have seen and personal experience, its a whirlwind indeed, I never thought I would leave or could leave. Yet, here I am.
    Thanks for sharing with us this personal experience.


    • JJ says:

      Thanks Anon. A person has to be ready to accept these things, and has to want to know the truth. The Bible Students back in the old days used to say that a person needed to have the three “H”s and to be:


      If they had those three, then they would be inclined to listen and take in more instruction and be receptive to the Master’s message. The same may apply to sleeping Witnesses today as well.


  2. DanielB says:

    This was a sensible and realistic reply JJ . For me , there were a couple years of figuring out the basics over my migration onward . I had some sense of guilt on a few details of my parting that I had to come to grips with for awhile , though I was absolutely certain that Jehovah was taking me under His wing , and my relationship has been much better since then with His Son as well . They are understanding with us . I thought you handled the emailing well too .

    Brotherly Love , dw


  3. John S says:

    JJ,interesting conversation,and some thought-provoking comments for Witnesses to think about,For me,I had a ten-years stretch of working in the Quick-build program.I was always talking to ones at the site during breaks and inthe evenings about the need for all the remodeling,and taking out of huge loans,instead of just being content with what was already more than adequate.Then I heard thru the grapevine that the reason was if they stopped taking out remodel loans,the money would stop being contributed,because Witnesses were as a rule low-income and of course not tithers.And true as it is,many are not motivated to make much money,or of course have little-to-no work drive or college education to qualify for higher paying jobs.(the WT shot itself in the foot there).So,as a result,many Kingdom Halls that were half-empty,regularly undergo drastic remodels every10-15 years,keeping these ‘despised’ lower-income slackers on a loan-treadmill.
    We had a major Hurricane sweep the Gulf and Carribean in the mid-nineties that killed a lot of people in a large landslide in central America.Some Witnesses,self-included felt we wanted the relief money we sent to be earmarked for “Hurricane victims”(as we knew huge sums were going to the Patterson ‘education’center and were sick by that time even of hearing how wonderful to know “Jehovah’s blessing” was upon this-yet-another huge printing facility,when 1000’s of our brothers were suffering.Of course,a letter came out in the K.M. scolding,yes,scolding us like naughty children! How dare we try to tell the spi
    rit-guided ‘Slave’how best to spend “Jehovah’s” money!The nerve we had! We should be deeply ASHAMED we would ever think the organization was ever using those funds for anything but the absolute best interests of Jehovah,and it would be as apostasy to criticise them in any way or even ask questions! Iwas so sickened by their tirade,and shocked at the serpent-like attack they FIRED right at us……like a snake strike!-I mean!
    Brothers,….I say let them alone.Blind guides is what they are,guiding many blind ones,too,many who love being told where and when to jump.Let them fiddle and play with their money-they are obviously money-lovers,unlike the Lord,and notice I said THE Lord,not THEIR Lord.They sicken me with their selfishness.


  4. John S says:

    Like a woman who is married to an abusive husband,so it was with me,I was every year losing so much respect for the GB and other aspects of the Administration,that I grew to resent their Silas-Marner stinginess and sneaky money schemes,all the while I watched them grow in power,and those in the admin.grow in pride and self-aggrandisement instead of humility.I knew these men weren’t seeking Jehovah’s glory at all,but were building a world-wide church-empire,regardless of our brothers’plight in the 3rd-world countries.Even Christendom’s church people were going all over Central America,donating time and money and their professional services to help suffering people down there,but would the “Society”ever give even the smallest bit of Christian-credit to these? H%#@ N#!!!! They would always make up a “Babylon the Great” snyde-remark to throw at them.This also sickened me.
    What put the pin in the party hog for me was when I was anointed.Instead of great joy,I was publically criticised as a crazy apostate.That’s when the worm finally turned.I knew then that those up in New York were NOT even trying to pretend to be loving Christian brothers like Christ,but were doing things exactly like the evil-slave of Matt.24.Drunk on their money,they started beating newly-anointed Witnesses,saying wicked things about us and getting our family and friends to turn on us.My wife ca
    ved in.But she had so little faith in Jehovah anyway,and wouldn’t examine anything I would show her.She took their attitude of contempt.I really had no way to go but out!There was no major decision for me to make,as the Witnesses iced me out more or less,I just shut the door on my way out! I just kept my nose in that Bible,and never went back once… what?More abuse?How am I supposed to repent,…over becoming anointed?There was never a doubt in my mind over that,as I had a conversion experience and experienced a wave of the Holy Spirit that surpassed knowledge.That I have experienced many times.This is not just academic,the anointing,I mean.It is definitely accompanied by powerful works of the spirit in our bodies.Sometimes I feel the spirit so strong,and my faith so strong,that I feel if it was God’s will,that fire could flow out of my fingertips.This is what anointing is like,brothers,YOU KNOW the Holy Spirit is there,that’s why its so serious now if I fall back,because this would be sinning against the Spirit.
    My advice to all Witnesses? Keep moving forward,no man putting his hand to the plow and then looking back is well fitted to be in the Kingdom of God.REMEMBER THE WIFE OF LOT…. the Lord said.Keep studying and have faith,he’ll bless you and carry you on his wings to a safe place like the woman in Rev.12.Be blessed!


  5. DanielB says:

    I am in full agreement with you Bro John . The Apostle Paul became fired up with God’s Spirit and where did he go ? Away from those who would consider him as a heretic (apostate) . To the nations .

    In Christ !


  6. JJ,

    Thanks for sharing this conversation with us. It’s hard to believe that most of us here shared, at least to some extent, Ben’s mindset. In the Matrix, remember the character that was woke up and then made a deal with the machines to be put back in. Life is like that isn’t it. Some aren’t ready to wake up. Some start to wake only to panick and seek to be put back to sleep, tucked away safe and sound in the spiritual paradise. It’s so strange to me now that many just can’t fathom serving GOD directly, under the leadership of our Lord. I honestly feel that many (in this age) can’t serve GOD independent of an organization. They need that golden calf as something tangible. It’s tough to walk by faith. If our asleep brothers had as much faith in our Lord as in the organization, there would be rejoicing in heaven! Keep us posted on further developments.

    Your Brother,



    • JJ says:

      What a great point Dennis. The structure is like a scaffold that props some up and without it they don’t know what to do or to think. Regrettably, some who realize the emperor has no clothes leave God’s love and become worse than a person without faith.

      This just illustrates that care needs to be taken when trying to help someone and that we can not predict what or how a person’s mind may rebel against TTATT.


  7. Jayme says:

    Very interesting and similar to many conversations I’ve had too.

    JJ, your friend is alot more aware and open minded than many and I think that puts him in a pretty good position. At least he is still using his own judgement and allowing himself to disagree with the GB where he sees “BS”, lol. Maybe he is not so differant than us but he has chosen to stay within rather than leave. Many bro/sis are in varying stages at this time and I think that as time goes on and the GB assert more power and pressure on christian conscience’s many more will find it harder to stay.

    There is really no need to stress too much about those who are still in unless we feel that the religion is not christian at all. If it is christian, then for some the good it provides may outway the bad. Many need the structure, and truthfully are just lazy or too intimidated to go without the “scaffold”. Sadly tho, this limits their growth and perpetuates them as “babes”.

    I would be interested to know if your friend thinks that salvation and a relationship with God can be found thru Christ APART from the WT org? Also, has he ever considered there’s a possibility that someday, when the real call to “get out of her my people” occurs, he may have to choose? Has he prepared his faith and his perceptive powers to be able to distingush the proper course at that time. Now is the time to train for that day. It would be naive to dismiss the possibility even if he thinks this is the one true religion because there are countless prophecies which point to the time when God will call his people to account and remove their head ones, just as he did with ancient Isreal. It can be easily shown that this hasn’t happened yet. Something to think about.


    • JJ says:


      I appreciate what you’re saying and you raise some good questions.

      You said: “when the real call to get out of her my people occurs” [will he have the fortitude to get out?]

      I wonder if that scripture is already in force right now? If it could be, then many are already compelled by the spirit to heed that warning. But others just are not ready perhaps…and it is not for anyone to judge their conscience.


      • Anonymous says:

        Hi JJ, personally I dont think that call has gone out. I think it will go out near or during the GT. Im still working out the chronology the best I can. I feel it will be very closly related to the time when Jesus takes decisive action against all these religious structures, foremost those which bear his name. Judgement shall start with the house of God.

        That being said, I think the Holy Spirit has always acted on the hearts of sincere, hungry God fearing men and women, moving them to seek truth and causing within them a strong repulsion away from all things which go against the Truth of God and bringing them together in fellowship with like minded ones. I see that happening here. :)


      • Jayme says:

        JJ, let me add that I suspect the call to get out will coinside with the work of the 2 witnesses because during those 42 months the Holy city will be given to the nations and trampled thus symbolizing a time of judgement from God similar to when Isreal was given over to the Babylonians. I believe there is a connection here with Jesus words at Luke 21, which gives expanded details to Matt.24. After Jesus warns about fleeing or getting out of her, then starting in vs 23 he says “For there will be great necessity laid upon the land and wrath upon this people; and they will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations until the appointed times of the nations are fulfilled.”


  8. Disappointed says:

    You know, this does make me feel a bit ripped apart (not your words JJ, just the scenario). As someone who has newly come to the realisation about the ’emperor’s clothes’ there is very much that aspect of ‘what next’? You feel as if the rug has been pulled out from beneath you. You have spent your whole life ‘belonging’.. decades of belonging, then overnight it’s gone..but it’s not so easy to just shake off. You can see the deception, the hypocrisy, the control but you can also see the dear friends you’ve known all your life. You can see amongst those in the congregation, true christians (especially if you are in a warm congregation like mine). Sometimes your conscience tells you that you should just give it all up but then you think ‘why’? when it could mean losing everyone you love. Your whole life torn apart. Does Jehovah want this? I’m not so sure he does. If everything that was taught was wrong then yes, maybe. But there is still some valuable information there. Last weeks WT about the Holy Spirit for instance. It was good. I just don’t know anymore.. sometimes I wish I’d never discovered TTATT. It’s destroyed everything. I was happier ‘asleep’. :(


    • JJ says:

      It an extremely difficult place to be in Disappointed. You are in our prayers!

      Something that helped me was Ray’s second book, especially the last 100 pages or so. It has much scriptural encouragement about this very subject.


    • Bro. Ed says:

      My dearest Sister Disappointed, the emotions you are feeling are perfectly normal. What you are struggling with is just like an analogy of first waking up from a deep sleep. At first you want to keep sleeping in the “warm comfort” of your bed. But that alarm is repeatedly insisting that you open your eyes and adjust to the real warmth and light of the new day, not the darkness where reality is just a shadowy outline under the false light of the moon. But now you are awake there are things to do! No one remains in the warmth of a confined bed when there is the chance to spend the time you have doing things in the warm and comforting light of the sun. And so with a little reluctance we pry ourselves up and get dressed and head out to do our work in the “Son”.

      Sister you have work to do! Those who you love are asleep in “cold comfort” and our Lord is asking all of us to wake them up, gently at first, firmly at the last. He will direct you, as he will all others he has already woken up. Don’t force the Spirit to try and make it adapt to your needs, instead wait and be prepared to adapt to the Spirit; it is like the wind, for it blows in many directions. Listen and stay awake sister.

      Your brother in the Lord

      Bro Ed


    • Jayme says:

      Sister Disappointed, I really feel for you.:(

      Ive felt the same way, I think we all have and still do at times. The truth is we rested our faith in a religious structure rather than in God himself. You have been blessed, I know it may not feel that way sometimes but its true. Think about this…eventually everyone will know TTATT! You’ve got a head start! I really believe our Father has opened the eyes and hearts of each of us for a reason. He has a purpose for you. Trust in Him, that he would not ask of you something which he is not prepared to help you with. Be patient and rely on Him for strength and peace. Use this time to continue to grow and learn, being taught personally by Him. You do not have to choose weather to go or stay right now. Maybe He will use you from within. Regardless, He will let you know. A religion has disappointed you but know and have firm confidence that He will NEVER leave you or disappoint! BTW…I love your picture!

      “None that rests his faith on Him will be disappointed.” Rom. 10:11


  9. DanielB says:

    I would like to draw attention to a subject here that has been discussed and quandried recently . Some have asked about entering and interacting in the Forum pages here . I have noticed that a good way to discover new and recent comments is to look near the bottom of the main (1st) page and find “active members” and click on this link . Also , I have noticed that it would be easy to miss the fact that there is a second (or more) page(s) to a particular thread , or topical discussion . Finally , I would like to ask that you look on the subject of the Bible book of John discussion where there is a second page going . I would like to know that we can have some more discussion and commenting going there on this thread that Bro JohnS began . Thank you bros for considering this . . . daniel b. w.


  10. Mark M says:


    Thanks for the post. IMO you handled it masterfully! Loving, kind and to the point. I think most of us here have an idea of the burden you feel for your friend. Sometimes for those of us who have been out for a while, because of the freedoms we now have I believe we (at least I) tend to forget the grip and the fear we once had of (in our minds) losing everything, ie family, friends, even salvation. Reading this brought those thoughts back to my mind. I knew I had to leave the org 10 years before I actually did. What a burden to carry! Sounds like Ben may be going through the same process. You gave him a lot to think about. Give him time to digest it. I feel very confident that you’ve made him think about many things he had never pondered in the past.

    Keep on witnessing brother!



  11. C M says:

    I think eventually in your emails you may have sounded too much like the apostate the GB warns about and that is why he may have thought it best to stop talking to you and though I agree with alot of the things you mentioned to him some i can disagree with but this brother “Ben” is trying his best to do what he believes is the right thing and that is to stay in the organization he believes Jehovah wants him to belong to and follow its rules regardless of the injustices he has faced as I am as well


    • JJ says:


      I can’t argue with you brother. This is what makes it so hard to wrap our minds around sometimes. One of us must follow his conscience and leave, another can see the flaws and stay in.

      I suppose it’s the motive. Jesus words here come to mind:

      Those of the Pharisees who were with him heard these things, and they said to him: “We are not blind also, are we?” 41 Jesus said to them: “If YOU were blind, YOU would have no sin. But now YOU say, ‘We see.’ YOUR sin remains.” (John 9:40, 41)

      So why does Ben or anyone else stay in the structure? Is it because they “do not see”? Or because they are afraid of losing their friends, congregational standing, reputation, etc. Is it apathy?

      Christ our judge knows. We can only do our best to follow the right path for us.


      • C M says:

        I believe the reason is the love for the brothers and the appreciation of the basic truths the org. has taught us that are right and none of us who really do know won’t argue with.


        • Bro. Ed says:

          Dear (brother/sister??) CM.

          I agree with you that there is a great deal of love among brothers and sisters in the organisation and, yes, the organisation did teach me, as it has done with many others, the fundamentals of living a moral life. But alas, it did not teach me the single most important lesson in how to have a full relationship with God; that lesson, being, our need to have a complete relationship with Christ. I didn’t learn how to be “in union with Christ”, as his follower, as the scriptures teach. This basic Christian teaching of salvation was covered over until I stopped and read the scriptures without any WT “thinking” to hinder me. In doing so the truth shone through.

          Now, after being “freed”, I have a proper relationship with my Father, through my Lord and savior Jesus Christ, the one who God gave all his authority too, “in heaven and on earth” (Matthew 28:18)

          CM, of all the many things I could list here as being wrong about the organisation, one thing, above all things has made me realize that it is NOT Gods chosen channel. It is that God’s channel would never hide the truth about Christ from those he calls his own. I, like many others, was taught that the vast majority of the word of God, is for an elect few and that these ones are there to feed me the “truth” under the direction of the Holy Spirit. In reality this translates to believing in the words of a very small group of men called the Governing Body. And as much as the GB insists that it is following in the footsteps of the “Christian Congregation of Jehovah’s Witnesses, Inc” of the first century, the only scriptural parallel for the organisational arrangements we see today is that of the Pharisaical establishment of Christ’s era.

          Now if my thinking is “apostate” according to the organisation, then let me stand accused. My defense is the very scriptures I was told were not “really for me”. And my defense lawyer is the Lord Jesus Christ; the one attorney who has offered himself to defend me, for free!

          I love so so many of the brothers and sisters in the organisation of Witnesses – some who right now would not show me love for my stand – however I do not love the organisation! These are two very different things.

          Peace be with you

          Bro Ed


          • C M says:

            I agree with some valid points but trust me you could have done that and still stayed in the org. and not suffer what you are suffering if you read what the bible says and alot of the valid articles the GB approves for publishing that our true bros. publish maybe you would realise that it does show us that you dont have to be a jw to go to paradise and you don’t need a church or org. in perse’ but you do need that fellowship to help you when you fall to get you back up. And you would read that only god could judge and some of what many may consider a rule is but a suggestion and alot of things are left to our educated conscience if it don’t bother you and does not go against the scriptures its okay just be careful and don’t be the cause for another to fail jehovah.


          • Bro. Ed says:

            C M:
            I agree with some valid points but trust me you could have done that and still stayed in the org. and not suffer what you are suffering if you read what the bible says and alot of the valid articles the GB approves for publishing that our true bros.

            I think you may have missed my point. I’m not suffering in isolation. I have many around me and myriads of angels looking on to see what I am doing each day to further the Fathers will. This is true of all who proclaim the truth about our Father and our Lord Jesus. I’ve never been happier and more content.

            Bro Ed


          • C M says:

            No i do get it you find it hard to believe god only reveals all this info. to the GB, a small group of men. You think if we really delve into the scripture we can find the way to have god with his holy spirit reveal to us what we need to know and i agree with that last part completely we put everything into a sincere prayer and Jehovah will give us an answer. And honestly when i was out of the truth for a few years i did do alot of investigating and even looked into other religions that seemed to have similar basic beliefs among others and trust me it is the closest thing to the truth regardless of everything else every other church is deff. full of and run by people who have no idea what they talking about and are horribly mistaken.


          • C M says:

            But i do know if you have a sincere heart and basic understanding of the biblical truths and read the bible and pray to god for help he will help you you dont need a church or org. to follow you just need Jehovah and faith in Jesus’ sacrifice.


  12. Janet says:

    Hi JJ..
    I am actually currently reading Ray’s second book..right after reading his first. This man has truly opened my eyes. His love for Jah and Jesus, and also for the Witnesses and GB is such an inspiration. His book is bringing me so much comfort. After my son’s tragic death 7 months ago, my sisters and their JW friends kept bringing me Watchtowers. I had actually stopped going to the hall after my parents, who were JW’s passed away. The hall I used to attend throughout my childhood was filled with wonderful and truly loving people, but the elders scared me lol. Even though I stopped going to meetings years ago, after the death of my son, some of the sisters, most I haven’t seen in over 20 years, attended my son’s funeral and have sent loving cards and many still call me to see how I am doing. I’m sure if I had been baptized and then disassociated or disfellowshipped,I would have never heard from any of them.I was always afraid to get baptized..not because I didn’t love Jehovah, but because I knew if I “sinned”, my family and friends would not be allowed to talk to me! I saw it happen to so many of my friends and it broke my heart. One of my friends was disfellowshipped and her sister hasn’t spoken to her in over 15 years! I think this same type of thinking exists in so many witnesses who KNOW that a lot of the current and past teachings are flawed. I have tried to show some of these flaws to my sisters and ALL they ever come back with is this ” the bible says that you will recognize who my people are by the love they have amongst eachother and the JW organization is the only one that exists that shows such love..and they are the only organization that is being used by Jehovah as a mouthpiece to learn what we need to survive Armageddon..only JWs can survive Armageddon”
    MY belief is that deep down, I don’t think the majority of them REALLY and TRULY believe all of that to be scriptual..or logical!I really believe it is the fear of losing the association with the people they have known all their lives..the ONLY people they have been permitted to socialize with!!..that keeps them from really digging deeper and finding the truth. Fear is a tremendous motivator.I know for a fact that going to meetings and door to door never made me feel as if I was doing it out of love for God.I never really KNEW God or Jesus back then, and I was attending 3 meeting per week! I was afraid to miss meetings not because I was worried it would upset God, but because I didn’t want to get in trouble with the elders. Reading these articles on this site, talking to you guys, reading Ray Franz’s books, and actually reading the BIBLE rather than WTs…these are tools that have helped me to start to build a real relationship with my Creator and his Son, which at this time in my life I really needed..some sort of comfort to help me through my grief and to make sense of things. I feel for your friend Ben..he sounds just like my sisters and I KNOW they must be struggling in their hearts but are too afraid and too devoted to the religion they were raised in to really do any research. Apostasy is a very real fear to them..and we know how this org. loves to perpetuate such strong fears in it’s members. So sad really.
    Thanks for sharing!


    • JJ says:

      Good for you Sister Janet. My heart goes out to you over your loss. But you make me very proud to call you sister and your spirituality is not destroyed.

      Quite the contrary, you are pursuing knowledge and reading Ray’s books, especially the last 100 or so pages of In Search of Christian Freedom is very encouraging to ones that have seen the man behind the curtain as we have.

      You are so welcome here! And thank you for the hug- I need as many as I can get. :-)


  13. John S says:

    Sister D,
    Don’t feel alarmed about the truth.Remember that the water comes out a little at a time.Be patient with your faith,it’ll grow as your knowledge of the son’s true words increases.
    That is exactly what we are endeavoring to do on this forum;get out some basic Lord’s truth on the most important of issues,like the one you brought up;”How important is it to worship with spirit and truth anyway? I don’t feel I can do this yet!” But with God’s help(Holy Spirit and Jesus himself) if you said to that Mountain……
    As Daniel said,we are now on the forum giving all the help we can for the very purpose of assisting the Witnesses in this endeavor.
    I’m sending out the call.All brothers and sisters! All who care for truth,and want to know the Lord’s gospel!All who want to receive the Spirit of Truth.Please come to the forum and help me publish the truth.Gospel of John is a tangible effort to answer the most important of questions about God,the Son,the Kingdom and the anointed rebirth of the Sons of the Kingdom.I particularly ask for DanielB to continue on-finish chapter 5 if you will(?)I would like volunteers for other chapters,please.I feel you all are more than up to it.Please lets let this be the product of the group,as there is wisdom in the multitude
    of counselors,and the project needs to move along,as there are other books we must open.
    Please my brothers and sisters,lets do this together.What say you all?


    • DanielB says:

      John , I appreciate what you are saying , and surely agree that some good systematic bible discussion is beneficial for all who visit here .

      Maybe the general mood will go in that direction on the forum discussions . There is quite a bit of feeling a sense of uncertainty and loss , with so many stuck between a rock and a hard place , and my heart goes out to them . It has been such a closed society . I can appreciate your observations regarding the southern bible belt Christians . The same things hold true elsewhere too . I don’t get organizationally involved with any of the churches , though on an individual basis , enjoy some good friendly conversations . There are plenty to be had in Christian lands .

      There are always the common ground subjects for conversation with those who are “sighing and growning” over things folks are fed up with , which open the way for sharing the hope within us . I hope that those transitioning who visit here come to realize this more through their dilemnas . You people are precious to God’s Son , so just find the cozy refreshing friendship with our Lord to help you through . He walks with us , if this is our momentum . May you be blessed .

      On the Gospel account of John , I hope too that we can get a system going , for verse – by – verse discussion . Maybe a verse or two at a time will invite some more interchange ; I don’t know . . .

      May Yehowah keep your spirits bright , all of you . dbw


  14. confused says:

    Hello my dear, I can agree with what you are saying. Some days, I feel good about leaving and others its just aweful. Keep sharing your feelings about it, I think it helps to talk it out and its OKAY to have these feelings. It was (the org) the focal point of our lives, it directed us in every aspect of our personal life and the way we raised our children. What I have had a hard time with is….”now what”? I no longer have someone telling me “what” or “how” and some here might think “ah, well, how much better”…right? well, yes and no to be honest. There is an abundance of info out there and for me, I dont know WHO to trust now…. even in reading what I have been, for every oinion out there, there is just as much aguement against. At times, I have almost walked away from God because of thinking its “impossible” to really get to know him, but im still here and still searching. Im afraid of making all the same mistakes whan I was in the org, so this has led me to being very reserved now….
    You are very encouraging to me and others on this site feel the same way towards you. I wish I were further along in my journey with this “new life” so to speak but I am not. Im still in the wilderness and still very lost and im searching for a “hand to hold” to guide me but so far im still alone, distant friends of mine are in touch via facebook only, all close friends are gone from me that I had. The only thing I really notice now is the quality of prayer when I pray, its much better now that im not going to meeting anymore. Im trying to make new friends but its not going very well, so ive decided to give up. I dont add much to conversations here on this forum because im still in the process of trying to figure out what I believe… that 1914 date is gone, faithful slave class gone and so forth…every thing I thought about the org—–GONE
    CRY OF ANGUISH had posted a good question and I really wanted to respond but realized after pondering upon it for a few days, I had no good enough response back to him……I hope I can get a little more stronger spiritually, I use to be able to have a response to just about any question……now…..cant seem to answer even the simple stuff……im not encouraging like I once “thought” I was.

    Much love to you and everyone here


    • Disappointed says:

      Dear sister Confused.. the truth is we are lost… and desperately trying to hold on to something.. it is hard, whether we have close friend or not. What’s happened is everything we ever believed in is gone.. overnight. It’s destroying. We try our hardest to stay close to our heavenly Father and his Son, but sometimes it feels like even they have abandined us. I know maybe I am feeling low at the moment and maybe you too dear sister. You have no friends close to you and I have no friends who can possibly know what I am thinking or feeling. It’s such a lonely place to be. I wish I knew how to cope with this. And I know you do too. Love to you dear sister.


  15. andrew says:

    I can also sympathize with those who are going thru the hardest part of the TTATT right now. I thought I had many friends. I was respected in the cong. and the circuit. I thought I would never die since Armageddon would come before I arrived at old age. I believed that I belonged to the only org. that had God’s approval.

    Now I realize that I had acquaintances but not friends. Now I am pointed to as a cautionary tale, thought of as spiritually weak, or even as evil. I realize that with all probability I will have to experience old age and death. I feel the sharp loss of wasting years doing man’s will not God’s.

    In spite of all this I am very happy I was woken up spiritually. I realize now that I never really had a real relationship with God and His son until after I knew TTATT.

    The trials I have had to face have surpassed by far anything I faced before. I realize they are refining my personality and drawing me closer to our Father. The loneliness I have experienced has also strengthened by relationship with Him. As they say time heals all wounds. The sharp pain that our awakening bros. and sis. feel will lessen with time.


  16. confused says:

    You and I are on the same page, it is very lonely. Even though we have each other here on this forum, its still a hard, cold computer that we type and try to convey emotion and feelings…does not take the place of a hot cup of coffee shared with a friend looking back at you…..I know…..and this is where the lonliness comes in…..sometimes the “low’s” seem endless, I certanily wish we lived closer to one another… here for you in whatever manner I can be (even though we are a continenet away…..


  17. John S says:

    Dear friends,
    I would like to encourage you by saying that even though some are married brothers,we still have fondness for our sisters who are struggling,and want you to feel you are appreciated and we pray for you,and we are writing information for YOU right now,not to make you feel badly,but to build up a real strong faith based on the truth and not fabricated doctrines of a 100 yr-old religious experiment that has run its course and is now gone to seed.Like a dandelion in seed,people are breaking off by the thousands,and flying away.You two girls may feel that way,drifting on the wind.But believe me,if you’ll just put a little faith in our Father and our Lord……..
    Personally,I still believe in 1914 as the end of the G.T.,I think the world events prove it.I believe there was a war in heaven,cleansing the demons out,down to the earth.Inside my heart,I’ll alwaya be a “Jehovah’s Witness”,always appreciate the things I’ve learned,and DID as I was serving God and his son.They accepted my sacrifices,my service,and blessed all of us for our efforts,and we were better people for it,weren’t we? So what’s to be sorry for?It’s just time to move up to something better,that’s all.Christ is very unhappy with the “nation of Isreal” so -to-speak,as their priests are now ‘dumb dogs’,and possibly some are imitating Eli and his two sons,Hophni and Phineas.
    But I will state till I die,I let no man look down on my youth and all my hard work performed in imitation of my Lord.I spent many a day starting at 7:00 doing street-work in front of our town-square post office as a young pioneer brother.And I witnessed my head off for 3 years in high school and helped 5, or 6 kids to become Christians.Am I ashamed of this?No,as they were headed for drugs,and immorality of the 60’s fashion.
    As the truth got brighter for me,in my 50’s,the Father reached down and said,more or less,”Up you go,Ive got something better for you to do now.”
    I know my message may sound a little crazy,about the anointing and all.That’s because you were taught differently,that’s all.What do you think those entire families who died in the arena in Rome’s Coliseum believed would happen after they died? What belief sustained them?Simply stated,the words of Jesus Christ.They knew they were going to go on to their heavenly home.Oh,sure,they could have stayed in their homes,and forsook their Christian beliefs,recanted and thrown a pinch of incense onto a little altar and pledged their worship to the Emperor,or the Witnesses to Hitler,but these chose to suffer and die,and saw their children die,so as to please God.This is what worship is supposed to be.Worship God,and his son,don’t worship your family or Witness friends first over God and Christ.This is the mistake Adam and Eve made.They put their own desires and their families first over God,and look,did it make them happy?Look,Jehovah,or Yahweh,whatever,I just call him Father.He is asking you to put Him first over anything or anyone else.Why would he do that?Why did Job do what he did? Why did Jesus suffer and die? Love.They loved the Father more than anything else.And that is by the way,the first and greatest commandment our Lord,the Son of God laid down as eternal.”We must love Jehovah our God,with our whole mind, heart,soul,and strength.” All the rest he will take care of,in due time,just do your part,you’ll see,He will work it out for you.Have faith.
    I’d like to pass on a little advice an anointed sister,Lois Wallace in Arcata,California gave three of us after we had finished our baptism questions,the last set of 20,of the 80 we had memorized,do you remember?She said,once in a while,’it’ all becomes a little ‘much’ and you have to get away from it.We loked at her with dumb,young puzzlement on our faces.She said,when it gets that way you know what I do? I just go find me a good book,AND I DON”T MEAN ONE WRITTEN BY WATCHTOWER,and I go lock myself up in my room(they lived in a tiny travel-trailer although Brother Wallace was our Congregation Servant.They were both anointed and had been regular pioneers forever)and I just read my book and try to get away from it for awhile.
    I appreciated that advice.It was years before I understood it,and took the advice.I’m passing it on.Maybe you just need to break off here awhile and rest the brain,get away from it for awhile?It is alot to deal with,and sometimes us brothers get way too intense,so I apologize.
    You’re gonna be ok.Have faith.Love God.Take a break.Chill.


    • Anonymous says:

      Dear Bro. John.. your sister Wallace was a wise woman! I’m going to take that advice, do some things where I can find a little rest and peace.. just simply read my bible and sit at the Lord’s feet like Mary. Thanks dear bro!


  18. Amos says:

    Sisters Disappointed & Confused,

    I can also, like Andrew encourage you both that this is just the beginning for you, & ALL others who are making a break from any religious institution. Believe us, it does get better. When the first shock starts to wear off, the realization of the most wonderful position that we can all be in, begins to make sense.

    Much comfort is needed, both now & then, & this is one place that we can support & comfort one another.

    One suggestion that I will make, particularly for you sisters is that you can open an account with Skype. it’s free. You can then have a face to face conversation with each other. This is much more personal than just pushing keys on a keyboard.

    Much christian love to you both, & ALL others who are breaking free, or thinking about doing this.

    One thing to remember above all else is….our loving Heavenly Father knows us & our situation better than we do ourselves, & He will give the needed support for each of us, His sons & daughters.



  19. Anonymous says:

    Glad your here with us, so sorry for your loss. some on this forum share your pain of losing a child in death,very sorry. :(


    • Amos says:

      Dear CM,

      You said…..”And honestly when i was out of the truth for a few years i did do alot of investigating and even looked into other religions that seemed to have similar basic beliefs among others and trust me it is the closest thing to the truth regardless of everything else every other church is deff. full of and run by people who have no idea what they talking about and are horribly mistaken.”

      Particularly, “and trust me it is the closest thing to the truth regardless of everything else”.

      I’d like to ask your candid opinion of what you consider the truth to actually be in light of the above quote.

      From where I’m standing, I don’t want the “closest thing to the truth”, I just want “THE TRUTH!!!” And the truth is available for any who choose to seek it.

      How can any one settle for something that is closest, rather than the real thing?”



    • Disappointed says:



    • Disappointed says:

      Glad your here with us, so sorry for your loss. some on this forum share your pain of losing a child in death,very sorry.



      • Janet says:

        Thank you Anonymous and JJ for your kind words.I just want my sweet boy back and I keep searching for answers about the resurrection, trying to find comfort there that I will see him again.


  20. Bro. Ed says:

    Isaiah 58:1-14 is why we are here and what we must do. It was given to another generation but as with all God’s words, it still applies today:

    1 “Cry aloud; do not hold back;
    lift up your voice like a trumpet;
    declare to my people their transgression,
    to the house of Jacob their sins.
    2 Yet they seek me daily
    and delight to know my ways,
    as if they were a nation that did righteousness
    and did not forsake the judgment of their God;
    they ask of me righteous judgments;
    they delight to draw near to God.
    3 ‘Why have we fasted, and you see it not?
    Why have we humbled ourselves, and you take no knowledge of it?’
    Behold, in the day of your fast you seek your own pleasure,
    and oppress all your workers.
    4 Behold, you fast only to quarrel and to fight
    and to hit with a wicked fist.
    Fasting like yours this day
    will not make your voice to be heard on high.
    5 Is such the fast that I choose,
    a day for a person to humble himself?
    Is it to bow down his head like a reed,
    and to spread sackcloth and ashes under him?
    Will you call this a fast,
    and a day acceptable to the LORD?
    6 “Is not this the fast that I choose:
    to loose the bonds of wickedness,
    to undo the straps of the yoke,
    to let the oppressed go free,
    and to break every yoke?
    7 Is it not to share your bread with the hungry
    and bring the homeless poor into your house;
    when you see the naked, to cover him,
    and not to hide yourself from your own flesh?
    8 Then shall your light break forth like the dawn,
    and your healing shall spring up speedily;
    your righteousness shall go before you;
    the glory of the LORD shall be your rear guard.
    9 Then you shall call, and the LORD will answer;
    you shall cry, and he will say, ‘Here I am.’
    If you take away the yoke from your midst,
    the pointing of the finger, and speaking wickedness,
    10 if you pour yourself out for the hungry
    and satisfy the desire of the afflicted,
    then shall your light rise in the darkness
    and your gloom be as the noonday.
    11 And the LORD will guide you continually
    and satisfy your desire in scorched places
    and make your bones strong;
    and you shall be like a watered garden,
    like a spring of water,
    whose waters do not fail.
    12 And your ancient ruins shall be rebuilt;
    you shall raise up the foundations of many generations;
    you shall be called the repairer of the breach,
    the restorer of streets to dwell in.

    13 “If you turn back your foot from the Sabbath,
    from doing your pleasure on my holy day,
    and call the Sabbath a delight
    and the holy day of the LORD honorable;
    if you honor it, not going your own ways,
    or seeking your own pleasure, or talking idly;
    14 then you shall take delight in the LORD,
    and I will make you ride on the heights of the earth;
    I will feed you with the heritage of Jacob your father,
    for the mouth of the LORD has spoken.”

    Your brother in Christ

    Bro Ed


  21. Willie says:

    Dear Br. Ed, You said, “… I have a proper relationship with my Father, through my Lord and savior Jesus Christ, the one who God gave all his authority too, “in heaven and on earth” (Matthew 28:18)” Have you ever thought what an excellent verse this is to prove that God the Father and Jesus, His son, are two separate individuals? How could Jesus be “God” if someone “gave” him the authority over the “ecclesiastical” heavens of planet earth and it’s environs? Jesus has yet to exercise this authority for first he must complete his church, whose members will make up the body of Christ, and then he will demonstrate this “all power” promised and assigned by his heavenly Father because of the successful completion of his earthly mission–to die as a perfect man to ransom the perfectly created Adam, so that all have the opportunity to be made alive again (I Cor. 15:22). Then comes the judgment of all segments of society–ecclesiastical, civil, and social–on planet Earth: “But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming. Then cometh the end [the end of the Millennial Day], when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death…. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he God is excepted, which did put all things under him [Jesus]. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him [God] that put all things under him [Jesus], that God may be all in all” (I Cor. 15:23-28). No trinity here either!

    Certainly Jesus does not have authority over the heavenly abode, where the Father, God Almighty lives. That would not be reasonable according to the words of Isaiah 42:5-8–“Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein: I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles. To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house. I am the LORD: that is my name: and MY GLORY WILL I NOT GIVE TO ANOTHER….”

    Is this the way you understand it?

    Sister Willie


    • Bro. Ed says:

      Sister Willie, I think you’re somewhat limiting the power and the scope of authority God gave his son. It’s clear that Jesus Christ, “has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers having been subjected to him.” 1 Peter 3:22 (ESV). And again the scriptures testify, “For it was not to angels that God subjected the world to come, of which we are speaking. 6 It has been testified somewhere,
      “What is man, that you are mindful of him,
      or the son of man, that you care for him?
      7 You made him for a little while lower than the angels;
      you have crowned him with glory and honor,
      8 putting everything in subjection under his feet.”

      Now in putting everything in subjection to him, he left nothing outside his control. At present, we do not yet see everything in subjection to him. 9 But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone. Hebrews 2:5-9 (ESV)

      Of course God is not subjected to Christ’s authority, as the scriptures say, “For Christ must rule until God defeats all enemies and puts them under his feet. The last enemy to be defeated will be death. For the scripture says, “God put all things under his feet.” It is clear, of course, that the words all things do not include God himself, who puts all things under Christ. But when all things have been placed under Christ’s rule, then he himself, the Son, will place himself under God, who placed all things under him; and God will rule completely over all.” 1 Corinthians 15:25-28 (GNB)

      It is true that not all things have yet subjected themselves to Christs authority, but this does not mean Jesus wasn’t given the authority over all things in heaven and on earth, after all this is his inheritance. As the scriptures say, ” but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world.” Hebrews 1:2. Soon he will come to “rule with an Iron Rod” (Revelation 2:27, 12:5, 19:15)and until then we must strive to belong to him by subjecting ourselves to his authority. This is the arrangement that God has decreed throughout all the scriptures.

      Your brother in Christ

      Bro Ed

      PS: Sister Willie, if you want to go deeper into this then perhaps we can discuss it in the forum or if you want, email me directly. JJ has my email address and will give it to you.


  22. John S says:

    I enjoyed your posts,Willie,Ed and all the others.Janet,hang in there,I can’t imagine how hard this is for you.Many are saying they are in a serious crisis situation like your own.Thankfully,there is comfort here from others.I apologize for being so scriptural-oriented,and maybe it appears I am unsympathetic to the pain of others because I keep focusing on the words of Christ and Christianity as an experience with the Holy Spirit.I have presented this foremost as a way for guidance into understanding scripture ,but the Holy Spirit is also the comforter.I raised 5 Children,and have been married now for 35 years,although my wife and I are separated,we are amicable,and still function together for our mutual benefit;the children.And we still have concerns over possessions,legalities,etc.So we still get along well,actually,and I still care for her in many ways.I have many feelings of love toward virtually all mankind,and endeavor to share the best of the best advice I can;the good news of God,the Kingdom. Like others,my gripe with WT is not with my former Witness brothers.It appears there is an ongoing DIS-FUNCTION occurring there that apparently will never be corrected,until the end.
    In all such organizations of this order,when I have seen these major problems occur,this is outward evidence of a dark BODY OF IMMORALITY OR UNHOLY CONDUCT being conducted or hidden behind closed doors.It never fails.I fear there is going to be a terrible house cleaning in WT soon,and I really didn’t want my name associated with that organization so about 4 years ago,I formally resigned before two elders at the Hall I attended and dated and signed a letter of resignation and a request to take me off the roles as a member.The brothers told me I was signing my ‘death warrant’.I felt so relieved when I walked out of that Kingdom Hall.Like I was getting a shower.I haven’t been to a meeting since.I have beautiful memorial services at home with the Lord and sometimes friends and Micah my 23 yr-old son.When I get lonely,I immediately start talking to Father and feel the Holy Spirit inside as a friend closer than a brother.I hope this will help some.


  23. Anonymous says:

    I too search for same hope and comfort. its there, just not sure how anymore.


  24. DanielB says:

    Janet , dear sister , we have examples from early Bible writings of the things that God’s people have encountered , and help with further scripture from the Apostles . And then there are brothers and sisters here and elsewhere who are so willing to say a few words of comfort .

    This is a thought that you are familiar with , which you can accept personally , “For all the things that were written aforetime were written for our instruction, that through our endurance and through the comfort from the scriptures we might have hope.” Ro 15:4

    That’s how to have such hope and comfort .

    Bless you , Sister .


  25. confused says:

    I have been very busy reading way too many books right now at one time BUT I stopped and paused today on some things, and I re-read this article again very slowly instead of rushed like I did the first time……Wow brother!!!!!! you did an AMAZING JOB of speaking to this “Ben” and you did so with respect and love, much love…..His own words were rather typical of most, I heard an Elder say to me not long ago that “if this is not the Truth, it did not matter because he has lived with no regretts”, I thought “wow, I would have a life time of regretts”…..I think most people are comfortable not having to think for themselves or be accountable….after all the org has everything mapped out for 7.5 million. His response kind of sickend me to be quite frank with you, very passive and non-commital……and to think the so called “preaching work” is backed by God himself is nothing but a joke….they sell FEAR and GUILT if you ask me….they do not preach the JESUS of the Bible but preach a different gospel. It makes me think of the scripture “Get away from me you workers of lawlessness, I NEVER KNEW YOU”………
    Thank you for sharing that with us, it helped me to kind of move out of my depression a bit and I know im so much better off than sticking with an org that only “thinks” they worship God.
    Im trying to study Greek too and yes, very hard but it interest me greatly….I noticed you mentioned the same thing. What do you think about Westcott and Hort greek interlinear???? I have read some very negative things about them and im just not very inclined to read their interlinear now….do you have ANY recommended suggestions or will you put in our new upcoming newsletter?


  26. JJ says:

    Sister Confused

    Your ongoing struggle and your strength of faith are so lovely, so “spiritually pretty” even though I know it is quite hard for you and doesn’t seem that way to you right now I imagine. :-) It encourages us all to see you working so hard to serve the Lord.

    I continue to use the Kingdom Interlinear, with the New World Translation on the right, and the Westcott and Hort on the other. I have consulted someone that is an authority on Greek and on the scriptures, Brother Werner of about this.

    Despite their dubious backgrounds, the Greek text is sound and very serviceable for the Bible student that seeks to gain more understanding of the NT.


    • Bro. Ed says:

      Sister Confused I’m so very happy too :) I think developing our faith is like walking on stepping stones. We have a path across turbulent waters that requires focus, agility and a great deal of faith. The stepping stones at first appear small, only giving us the slightest foothold to stay balanced and upright on. We need to make seemingly large leaps from one stone to the next. But as we progress the stepping stones seem bigger and the distance to each other, closer. However, as we look back we realize that the stones are still the same size and distance apart; it’s just that we’ve grown in confidence and have become more masterful over the task of getting from one side to the other.

      Sister, each step you take will get easier. The Spirit we are praying for each day, helps us to stay focused and learn the truth about God and Christ. With the Spirits help, we become more capable of stepping from one spiritual truth to another. I, like you and all our brothers and sisters past and present, long to be able to step onto the solid banks of the side that bring us all to perfection.

      Keep stepping sister with greater confidence…each day!! May our God continue to send his spirit to those who are following in the footsteps of Christ Jesus.

      Your brother in Christ

      Bro Ed


  27. DanielB says:

    Dear Sister Confused , I was paying attention to the things you say , and I can certainly relate to them . It has seemed that the largest single decision I have ever made was to just leave the organization . I do look back at it principaly without regret , as I am convinced that ‘my Jehovah’ had led me to that association at a time when I needed such education . I have faith that He and His Son are gracious enough to cover me for the obvious errors in having been involved , and somewhat ignorant .

    Then there was a time when it became so obvious that Holy Spirit was moving me onward , and with little association in the organization for such a life-breathing improvement ; truly undeserved kindness to see me through . I sensed the urging to go on , as I know that you others experience .

    So in retrospect , it was association with half pure gold , and half brown organic matter .

    Wherever we find ourselves , let’s just make our individual way straight with the help of the Spirit . And there is such comfort from God’s Word (both His Son and the Scriptures) . Luke 12:32

    May your spirit cry out “Abba! (Papa) Father!”


  28. John S says:

    Thanks JJ for the comment about using Wescott and Hort material in which Bible we use.I have been using the ‘Emphatic Diaglott’,which utilizes the Vatican 1209 manuscript.Some may have issues with that.I can also use the ‘ Kingdom Interlinear’ that the Society published years ago.A comparison of different translations,though I will recommend for any who want to get to the meat of the message of Christ.This is my endeavor on the forum.


    • JJ says:

      Brother John

      Just so you know, your last comment was number 4,000 thus far on JWS. You should win a prize lol!

      BTW, I also enjoy using the Emphatic Diaglott. The KI is just much more readable and has the familiar NWT for reference on the right, making comparision to other translations easier, such as when reading the ESV along with the KI.


  29. confused says:

    Yes…..Brother John should get a “star” or something for being #4000 to comment…… :)
    Thank you my brothers for the nice encouragement….it helps to get through the lonely days when you feel like “throwing up your arms, and walking away”……I dont like that spot….


  30. John S says:

    Hey Hey! You know I probably rated as the wordiest(?) blogger if not one of the one’s talking the most.But I hope we hit 5000 by the next 8 weeks,as I feel we have something to say worth listening to in our expressions of being Witnesses,and now,many of us —something else—-Christians,maybe— at last!
    Again,I’d like to announce something of the forum site I am looking forward to.The faith of many has been weakened by Watchtower’s apparent mis-handling of Bible prophesy/interpretation,and their dogmatic implication that you understand it my way,or get the highway,as we all agree.

    There is a definite need to reconsider FOR SOME the concept of the prophecy of Daniel chapter 2;the Gentile-Rule ending,and Jesus receiving the Kingdom of the World-1914,or thereabouts invisibly in heaven.As these things are now being looked at again,as our faith in many of the promises of Revelation and Matthew 24,25,,are to be reckoned upon and resolved as possibly OCCURRING at that approximate time,I will start a thread on forum to start an open discussion entitled,”The Kingdom of the Seed.” This will be a NATURAL sequence of information on the heals of the subject of Gospel of John,which will answer the question of the anointed Sons of the Kingdom,and whether WE can get in line to be counted among these.Again this is something Watchtower said is unattainable for inquiring Christians today,as Russell,who started WT,and subsequent Presidents limited membership and Christianity itself to just a few in our population of 5 billion now,in contradiction to the Lord’s words at Rev. 22:17.I like it when somebody tells me “You can’t do this or that”…it just makes me try all the harder to show them how limited their minds have become.
    I know readers will have at least a better understanding of the kingdom prophecies,and may even for the first time be able to see the light at the end of the long tunnel of darkness they have been trying to get out of by a positive evaluation of the many prophecies about the seed ,the Kingdom and the Sons of the Kingdom,etc.Check it out!
    So does this make 4003?…4004?,we’re going up,up,up,and awaaaaaaaay!


  31. FutureMan says:

    Hi all, this is an interesting post, because it certainly does show that there is something wrong in the “Spiritual Paradise (Organization of Jehovah’s Witnesses).

    But in my three years of research I have come to the conclusion that what is most important in all this is the “Kingdom of God”.

    Not the Kingdom of God that the Watchtower Society teaches about, but the actual Kingdom of God concept that Jesus spoke of and talked about and also lived, while he was here on the earth.

    I have now come to the understanding that the “Kingdom of God” actually represents, “The Fatherhood of God, and a loving United brotherhood of all men and women here on this planet”

    That is the Kingdom in a nutshell.

    If all on this planet were taught it’s message and abide by it, we would live in a very different world today.


  32. a non-JW relative says:

    I am curious what any of you think about the 2001 Translation of the Bible that is available on the internet?


    • JJ says:

      Are you referring to the one that takes the King James and replaces Lord with the name Jehovah?

      If so, there are good things about it, such as helping people to see that the Father has a name and is distinct from the his son Jesus.

      However the KJ has many problems and has been vastly improved upon by many translators since 1611- this in itself makes it something I wouldn’t have a great need for in my own personal study.

      The 400+ year English does not hold appeal for many either, as it is stilted and difficult to read. No one today speaks in this way today, as hundreds of verses illustrate.

      Another problem is that God’s name
      is made up of four Hebrew letters, YHWH as we all know. The closest rendering appears to be Yahweh and the WT has acknowledged that it is a more accurate word and pronunciation for the Divine Name.

      That said, why not use the actual name
      for God, not a less accurate transliteration into English?


    • andrew says:

      I think he is referring to

      I have read some of it, not enough though to have an opinion on it. The Old Testament uses the Greek septuagint I believe.


  33. Willie says:

    Dear Br. John, I am not aware of who in the Jehovah’s Witnesses (so named in 1931) started the notion that the high calling mentioned by Paul in Phil. 3:14 was only for the “ruling” class or GB, but it was most certainly NOT Pastor Russell, who died in 1916 and never heard of the Jehovah’s Witnesses and had nothing to do with the fact that he is claimed, by their true founder, “Judge” Rutherford, to have been their first president. The Jehovah’s Witness have been told this for so long that they accept it as a fact, even though the WTS is so far from representing what Charles T. Russell taught that I’m sure he wouldn’t recognize its teachings–EVEN IF HE HAD BEEN THE FIRST PRESIDENT.

    Pastor Russell taught the good news of the gospel of the high calling in Christ Jesus and in those days there was no governing body, no collections, no Kingdom Halls, and no membership rolls; in fact, among the Bible Students today there STILL none of the above that I know of. How many Bible Students are there? A few days ago someone suggested that there were a million. The last guess I heard–by a well-traveled elder now deceased–was approximately ten thousand. They are not trying to convert the world–they are just trying to find the last few grains of wheat before the judgment day of the house of God (I Pet. 4:17). Converting the world is Restitution work for the Kingdom Age (Acts 3:19-21).

    So what did Pastor Russell teach? (1) The “wise virgins” who are called the Little Flock, the Body of Christ, the 144,000, will be IN the throne and live and reign with Christ as his Bride (Rev. 20:4). (2) The “foolish virgins” who are called the Great Company will also have a SPIRITUAL inheritance as servants BEFORE the throne (Rev. 7:13-15). They will assist the Little Flock (the Bride of Christ), as the Levites assisted the high priest, Aaron, in the days when the Law was given to Moses. (3) A “holy remnant” of Jews will be the nucleus of the Kingdom on earth (Ezek 14:22; Joel 2:32; Mic. 5:7; 7:18-20; Zeph. 3:13-17; Zech. 8:11-13; Rom. 9:27) and Jerusalem will be the capital of the world. (4) Subsequently, after the Kingdom is established, all the inhabitants of the earth (with some exceptions, such as Judas, the son of perdition) will be raised from the dead to have an opportunity to obey the New Law Covenant established first with the Jews to replace the Old Law Covenant, and the obedient WORLD-WIDE will live forever in Paradise on planet Earth. (5) Jesus returned invisibly in 1874–NOT 1914. (6) 1914 was the end of Gentile Times and thus the Jews could legally–in the sight of God–return to their homeland Israel for the Gentile governments will eventually fail. (7) Babylon was officially given “her eviction papers” in 1878 and she will fall shortly after she is responsible for having the “feet members” of the Body of Christ put to death. There’s much more of course, but I hear these major points misrepresented over and over.

    Perhaps the Watchtower Society has taught that the high calling is unattainable for inquiring Christians since 1931 when they were officially named Jehovah’s Witnesses. I certainly do not know where the blame lies, but it is definitely NOT with Pastor Russell for his mission was harvesting the wheat–the ones running for the high calling. Some have said that his first words to a new person were often, “Brother, are you consecrated”? Consecration was his goal for ANYONE who had a listening ear.

    Sister Willie


  34. John S says:

    Sweet Willie,
    This is what I mean;Charles Russell is(thru his writings which Bible Students are pushing as truth) was teaching the fundamentalist teaching that only 144,000 would enter heaven as Christ’s bride-to-be,just as WT continued in this thinking.This is the problem with both.Christ has offered the Heavenly call to all mankind,the Revelation figure is SYMBOLIC as all the things in there are;the lamb,the bride,the city,the dragon,the 1000 years,riders on horses,wild beasts.and on and on.
    The gospel account of Jesus’ instructions is to accept the anointing of the spirit and become sons of God,there is no other choice as this is the program.The 5 virgins who are foolish in the parable were SHUT OUT.Russell is just wrong on this,sorry.This is where the Bible Students are in error,IMO,and the scriptures say it,I didn’t first.These are the words of the Lord,”I tell you the truth,I do not know you.”So who is wrong,Russell,or Christ.Be reasonable.(Matt.25:12)As for Russell,he was the first owner of the WT,then successors were appointed,and although changes in doctrine were made,as Russell himself made,also,the Magazine and the teachings and membership rolled along as before.This is also the BIG ATTEMPT the Bible Students harp on.Russell was not the originator of the Witnessess!OK,then,but he was the originator of the Bible Students,and that is what the religion became,Jehovah’s Witnesses,along with the Watchtower and all its books,rights,so on.That some seperated and re-started the Russell-religion,the Bible Students,and returned to his thinking,is the way it happened,in another way of looking at it,so we just accept it and move on,and we should move forward into truth.I feel the Bible Students are still stuck in time,around 1910,insofar as following Pastor Russell,INSTEAD of the words of Christ. I don’t think that can even be disputed,as much of his teaching is wildly speculative and independent of Christian truth.Sorry,I can’t take his interpretations as anything but that.My Shepherd is the Son of God.


  35. John S says:

    Sister Willie,
    Let me explain some things.I was a JW for 35 years.Along with several others here,we broke away from the JW’s and went searching for “True Christianity”,maybe not realizing it is a spiritual thing,not to be found in any one religion.But at that time,we searched the web,and came across something that shocked us!The Bible Students!They presented themselves loudly thru the well-designed and seemingly “brotherly,hello!we’re your brothers!,over here,we’re the original organization you belonged to!” this site is even called”Friends of Jehovah’s Witnesses”.So,at first,we were excited,thinking ,alas,these are our brothers we have been looking for!I thought,since I was recently anointed and kicked out basically because of it,that these anointed worshipers of Jehovah were my long -lost ‘brothers’.
    But after 6 months of serious study of their teachings,I and possibly others,came to my horror,yes,it is horrible to me to see,that Russell’s religion was ten times more a cult than the Witnesses ever were.The Bible Students teach Russell-alone is the faithful and discreet slave,and give worshipful devotion to the man and all his teachings as the modern day prophet to the world.After I had read 4-500 pages of his writings and spent days arguing the philosophies of Russell,including his “Divine Plan of the Ages”,”Ransom for all”,144,000 elect,and the topper,The “Pyramid Shadows”,it was clear,as the one writer on that site,Peter K,told me,”You are not accepting the Bible counsel given on this site,so we will ask you to curb your comments or maybe just leave.”,or the gist of that.
    I was only so happy to comply.My thoughts on the Bible Students;Here is a cult of the first magnitude,fundamentalists in much of their interpretation,and overly interpretive,imaginative to the highest degree in other interpretations,one extreme to the other,BUT,true to whatever RUSSELL said….to a fault!The imagination shown in the interpretations and time-calculations are just short of fiction-writing in many cases.;and bad fiction at that.There is also an UNDERCURRENT of distaste for all things JW in their writings,as they resent the seeming successes the Witnesses achieved,apparently,and many of them when under debate,you will find will remark on the efforts we made to preach and live a Christian lifestyle,as a total waste of time,and flippantly paint a picture of what we were doing as zombie-moves,lacking any semblance to true worship at all.This is also the WT attitude,that is nothing anybody does that is not a Witness,counts one iota to God and his son.This resentment also is palpable,and petty.
    Finally to wrap up the doctrine,I find the B.S. religion,Russellism,is what it is,in no uncertain terms ,is contaminated with Babylonish concepts,just as others whom Russell condemns are.What is more Babylonish than the Egyptian pyramid?To say Christ’s bride the New Jerusalem is portrayed in this monumentally pagan altar is the height of being of Babylon.The original ziggurat temples of the kingdom of Babylon,stepped rectangular pyramids,were copied by pagan nations world-wide when the language of man was confused in Babylon by Jehovah after the flood and Nimrod built this false religious empire.Here you have a man bringing back Babylon’s worship of the Pyramid into Christianity! I rest my case.
    Six months ago,I came on this site.What did I see? Bible students coming here,Peter K(raised in it) and some new converts to the religion,who once were Witnesses,but had fallen for this other cult,now trying to capture the minds of struggling Witnesses,to deceptively win them over to Russellism.Many an argument was going on with the two concepts;WT verses Russell,and Bible teachings of Christ verses Russell. What happened? The brothers here overwhelmingly stood up for Christ’s teachings,and that is where we stand.Russellism lost.To this day,the emphasis is on the true Gospel message of Christ,not the cult-teachings of Witnesses or Russellites.That was a major victory,and since then… the site has experienced many blesseings spiritually.
    I’m sorry Willie,that you Bible Students are so wrapped up in differing degrees of belief of his teachings.I can foresee the real need for a site for all the Bible Students called,”BSStrugglers”,as the divisions among your ranks are now perceived as breaking up families and causing divisions in love and beliefs ,just as we Witnesses are going through.My earnest advice is as the word says,”Physician,heal thyself”,that is put your own house in order,then you will be able to see the rafter that is in your own eye.I’m sorry.That is my sincere view based on the writings of Christ,and an honest examination ,unprejudicial of Russell’s teachings.


  36. John S says:

    P.S. I feel this site is supposed to be kept holy by discussing the pure Bible truth,and I feel it now beneath the dignity of this holy sentiment to introduce and/or argue the dead teachings of the afore-said preacher.So I will not comment on any of his teachings here,and have no desire to anywhere,as I have spent way too much time in my life chasing those concepts and bringing them captive to Christ.Sorry.


  37. John S says:

    P,S. Sister Willie,you know I love you,and I know you are consecrated/anointed,and have the Father’s holy Spirit in you strongly,as you do for me,so all will know,I speak of the teachings,and wish not to hurt your feelings.I am not alone in this.Please do not let me make you cry over these harsh words.I shouldn’t have gone so deep,to the bone.I love you my sister,forgive me,if you can…..J.I know you are one who does NOT believe in everything Russell has taught,and you struggle with those who insist he is all- knowing and in fact directing the “work” from heaven at this time(some believe),but that you have great respect and wish to stand up for his motives.That is good ,and we should and do respect your feelings.Again,forgive my rude comments.


  38. John S says:

    For the record,I also want to state that my former friend and acquaintance at Friends of JW’s,Peter K,the administrator over there,while I decidely disagree with his views of Russell’s work,I highly respect his hard work,diligent research and huge knowledge of the scriptures.He works as hard as anyone I know to publish at great expense of his enegy and time to dispense his beliefs.Truly he is whole-souled and sacrifices all for the Lord.His character,something the Bible Students put great store by(a good thing),is above and beyond reproach and a shining star for his religion.And that goes for virtually all the Bible Students I have had the privelege to associate with and study with.Nothing but good do I have to say for their character and devotion.Only their belief is as I have stated,like someone trying to dig for water in the Sahara desert,and their efforts ,I feel are largely a waste of time,sadly.But some of the finest people on earth,I will say.And surely the Father will grant them a large reward for all their hard work.I love them deeply.


    • JJ says:

      After attending a Bible Student’s convention I found the program and the association upbuilding. They are sincere and studious Christians. Some adhere more to Russell than others, and that may be a point of contention in one ecclesia over another. I do not share some of their views on chronology and Israel, but as you said earlier, “I don’t have all the answers”, nor the gall to say that I am right and they are all wrong.

      Christ our King watches and judges all hearts. His perfect leadership tells me that I can leave it at that.


  39. humbleman says:

    Hi Bro John Apart from the teaching on the great pyramid what teachings do you think the bible students have wrong ? i know you mentioned in the above comment you discussed the ransom for ALL. are you saying Jesus wasn’t a ransom for all?


  40. John S says:

    Bro.Humbleman,do you believe Christ can do that job well-enough without our help?Don’t worry,he won’t throw anyone into the Lake of Fire unless he thinks they are just too wicked to let out into the world.Let him worry over it,he knows what he’s doing.Come listen in at the Forum,Gospel of John,if you want to hear more of Jesus’words.


  41. John S says:

    To answer your question directly,Christ bought the whole world of mankind,Adam and Eve included.Who he lets into the New Earth is another matter,as he plainly states in nearly all accounts that the resurrection will mean judgement(execution for some),life for others,which is not his desire,but it’s their choice.Acts 24:15 says the righteous and unrighteous will be resurrected.But John5:28,9 says some are judged because they did evil things.Many scriptures also are of Jesus words concerning Gehenna,translated Hellfire in some Bibles.This symbolized the judgement of eternal death for some who did evil deeds.The Lord plainly will destroy them with fire.These obviously will be in a situation like the Lake of fire in Revelation,where many wind up at Armageddon.
    So there are many scriptures that show that not all people who have ever lived ,especially evil men will be turned out onto the New Earth in the “1000 years”. They may stand before the throne of Christ in judgement,be given a chance right there to explain and plead for themselves,but then those in charge of the judgement may see in them no chance of repentance and change,so they are pitched into the fire.This is all indicated by all the scriptures put together and logical reasoning.And many who are judged wicked at Armageddon will be thrown directly into the Lake of Fire(Rev.19),with no resurrection,so it says.A simple one-answer-fits all is naive,and isn’t in harmony with all the scriptures that bear on the matter.


  42. humbleman says:

    Thank you bro john. i don’t want this to turn into a debate lol but in rev 19 i only see the beast & the false prophet going into the lake of fire. not many as you state. i think to base doctrines of the book of revelation is not wise. the jws have done that and we can see how ridiculous it is to say there has only ever been 144000 anointed Christians in 2000 years. do you have any other scriptures. that are not from the book of revelation that says those who die at Armageddon go to second death? thanks for your time bro


  43. Willie says:

    Thank you, JJ, for pouring some oil on the waters here.

    If 95% of the Bible Students are “Russellites” and not students of the Bible, then it is highly unlikely that anyone is going to come across a member of that other 5%. If this 95% make themselves into a cult that is their choice; it is certainly not forced on them. I remind you that there is no organization and we can all believe whatever we want to believe. I prefer to believe the Bible, so I am that kind of Bible Student.

    I do have great respect for Br. Russell for I believe he was a servant of the Lord, the “man with the writer’s inkhorn” of Ezekiel 9. What other single person has written and published over 10,000 pages on the Bible–not to mention the newspaper articles which were read by millions each Sunday, and The Photodrama of Creation, which was viewed by millions–FREE? I have read the majority of these pages over the past 45 years. It was not “required” reading, by the way.

    I will promise not to be an expert on what the Jehovah’s Witnessess believe, if Br. John will slack off on being an expert on what the Bible Students believe.

    Sister Willie


  44. Willie says:

    Dear Br. John, Can we reason on the Scriptures for a minute? It is true that Revelation was written in symbolic language for Rev. 1:1 says that is so; but, the NUMBERS are not symbolic. How do we know? Since numbers are infinite, how would we know if the number 7, which is abundant in Revelation, represented 15 or 37 or 61 or whatever–if it didn’t represent 7? How would we know that 144,000 didn’t represent 5,000,096 or six and a half billion if it didn’t represent 144,000? There would be no way we could ever hope to understand Revelation if the numbers were symbolic too. IT’S HARD ENOUGH THE WAY IT IS.

    Only the virgins get into heaven. If the foolish virgins are not “raptured” when the wise one are taken, do you not think that there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth? You bet there will be! Jesus is saying, I never knew you (as members of the bride class–understood). It says it is talking about the Kingdom of heaven in Matt. 25:1 and they all went forth to meet the bridegroom. Perhaps the five foolish virgins do not have an understanding of prophecy, as they should. For some reason they are not prepared; they don’t have enough oil in their lamps; they are undeveloped in some way as the little sister in Song of Solomon 8:8. They go wash their robes as we read in Revelation and they get their spiritual reward in heaven as the Great Company BEFORE the throne. Only virgins go to heaven. The foolish ones missed the marriage–the door was shut by the time they had gotten the oil, whatever that represents. They will get to go to the marriage supper. There is no inkling here of second death, in my opinion.

    If the Little Flock is not 144,000 and the Great Multitude–another spiritual class–is not unnumbered, then WHAT do you think the 144,000 represents?

    You said, “What is more Babylonish than the Egyptian pyramid? To say Christ’s bride the New Jerusalem is portrayed in this monumentally pagan altar is the height of being of Babylon.” Well, Br. John, no Bible Student that I know believes that. Many do believe that the Great Pyramid is “The Bible in Stone,” for its passageways and three chambers show the three destinations of mankind: (1) the downward sloping passageway to the Pit, representing the degradation of sin resulting in eternal death; (2) the level passageway toward the Queens’ Chamber, which represents earthly Paradise, that expands greatly for the last one-seventh of the journey representing the beneficial helps for success in attaining everlasting life on earth in the Millinnial Kingdom when Satan is bound; and (3) the very steep, but very elevated passageway of the spiritual class that shows the seven stages of the Church in the indented ceiling with the granite stones at the top representing the step of consecration and the sacrificing of the will to secure entrance into the Kings’ Chamber which represents heaven. The coffer in the King’s Chamber was made into the structure at the time of its construction and some connect it to the Ark of the Covenant which represents those chosen from the foundation of the world (Rev.17:8). The Granite Plug represents the Law Covenant which blocked the ascending passage so that no one could get life until Jesus paid the Ransom price. The Well-Shaft is perceived to be the “Key” to understanding the entire symbolism of the Great Pyramid, just as the ranson sacrifice of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God, is the cental theme of the plan of God. The Great Pyramid sits on a natural rock foundation and the little cave called the Grotto in the well-shaft has a lamb-shaped rock that God made there since the foundation of the world (Rev. 13:8). Of necessity, this description in very elementary.

    Shem is thought to have been the overseer of the building of the Great Pyramid. All other pyramids are shape copies of this original one, and most are tombs of pharaohs, etc. Satan has always done his best to camouflage the truth and here he has succeeded marvelously.

    Sister Willie


  45. greybeard says:

    Dear brother John S,

    You said, “it is horrible to me to see,that Russell’s religion was ten times more a cult than the Witnesses ever were.”

    My question to you is who are we to play judge on this mater? What really is a cult? They take people prisoner and hold their entire family as captive. Did they do that? JW’s do as you well know. How many of your family members are held captive in the Bible Student’s “cult” as you call them? I personally know of nobody held captive by Bible Students. The JW’s hold MOST of my family captive.

    Brother John S, you make many comments on this blog about what you believe and how you feel all should believe and that is all good and wonderful. I think I recall you saying that you are having dreams and you were fleeing to the mountains soon? If so, I wonder how many are going with you?

    It is wonderful that you believe in Christ and share your view, however to say the above to me comes of as a little judgmental. Maybe I am the only one who feels that way but I don’t think so.

    Along with your doctrinal view, could you please share with us how you go about helping those who are in physical need? How you show love to your neighbor? Those are the things that build me up. Preaching hellfire or eternal punishment does absolutely nothing for me. It turns me off big time. I serve God out of love for all he has done and I do help my neighbor and I am involved in charitable works as many Christians are in this world. I don’t obey God because I am afraid of hellfire or eternal punishment. I know how loving my heavenly father is.

    Jesus said he had more thing to tell us but we were not ready. He also said all things are possible with my father. Why limit the hand of our heavenly father? Why not leave these things in Gods hands and get busy in charitable works? Faith without works is dead right? Preaching our own view of correct doctrine is less powerful then loving our neighbor in my opinion.

    I posted this before and I will post it again:

    There is no one on this earth that understands all things but there are plenty of people who act like it. There are plenty of people who think they are right and everyone else is wrong. I was one of them. Now I realize that we only know in part. Much knowledge of the first century Christian church is gone but still “faith, hope, and love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.” 1 Corinthians 13:8-13 (NASB)

    Please build us up by telling us how we can show love to our neighbor and help those in physical pain who are hungry, poor and sick. What do you do in these areas?

    With love for you and all,
    Your brother in Christ,

    More in this subject HERE


  46. John S says:

    Are you asking for me to stand before you as if you were Christ and give an accounting of myself to you?I have been teaching the words of Christ on the forum.How much simpler can I get? The young brother got his reply from Christ’s words only and the Revelation.What else can I say?The bible in Rev.17:15 says the harlot who sits on waters means she is composed of many people,she is thrown into the Lake of fire at Armageddon.Revelation 14:9-11 says the Beast and anyone receiving the mark will get thrown into the Lake of Fire.What I am teaching is not mine,but is from the Lord’s own mouth and the Revelation he gave.Bible Students will not acknowledge the scriptures I show them.They choose to ignore these,saying flimsy excuses for their reason.It’s black and white to me,clear as a bell.Jesus said if you take the mark,you will be thrown into the second death.If that bothers you,why take it out on me?If the Bible Students don’t want to believe it,ok.But they clearly are turning the Lord’s gospel away here.When you prefer the Man(Russell) over the scriptures,that is a cult.Look it up.
    As far as me ,I don’t answer to any man about my whole life of fine works,those who know me might come here to defend me,but after this,I don’t think I will be referring anyone.I will retire.My son’s life is more than sufficient a fine work.As you remember,he nearly died a month ago.He is one of two children that still love their Father.He believes in me and knows I speak the truth.If you believe the Bible Student’s teachings about everyone is going to be placed in paradise,that’s your business.If you want to know what I believe on open forum,I won’t hesitate to say it,using Christ’s words to answer.If you have a problem with him,take it up with him or ignore him or move out of Christianity or just make up your own philosophy.Jesus’ instructions to me are preach the good news of the Kingdom.Now you’re barking at me ‘cos I’m seeing that as my life’s mission for the past 40 years.You’re not going to stop me and others from publishing his words on the web or preaching his sayings from the rooftops.If you want to go work a soupline,feeding people,fine.That’s not the work Jesus said Christians were to put as priority one.Ignore that if you want.You have been very frank with me here,and I knew that is what you were getting at when you wrote the article.If this site is set up for the purpose of not posting Jesus Christ’s teachings let me Know.JJ too.You may want to out of fairness post this letter to the others as some may take offense to you driving me away.Your call.I don’t want to fight for no reason.Defend the good news?Yes,but when it gets heated up,no.
    I said my apologies to Bible Students and declared my love for them and praised their efforts,but the teachings of Russell on many topics are not what Jesus said.His words are fair game in the open forum just as mine are,and yours,aren’t they? You don’t seem to have any trouble blasting away at WT.So when I take a shot at Russell’s teachings you take offense,I wonder why?Would you care to reply?


    • greybeard says:

      Dear brother John,

      I did not mean to offend you. I am sorry if you feel that was my intent. I am not above reproof myself and I have have been reproved by my brothers on this web site. I might need it again for this encounter with you, I don’t know… I am not a “Bible Student” of the Brother Russell type all though I do have much more respect for there ways than I do the JW’s. I do know what a “cult” is and I have looked it up. Opinions also vary quite a bit on that subject. My opinion is, whatever “Bible Students” are, the JW’s are that plus all they are now. JW’s come from the “Bible Students” as you know. Your words, “it is horrible to me to see,that Russell’s religion was ten times more a cult than the Witnesses ever were.” Were directed at Bible Students on this web site and did offend them. I did not know about your posts because I usually only read the posts under articles that I write. It is to difficult for me to keep up with every post. Your comment was brought to my attention and it does violate our principles on this site. Why do we talk about the Watchtower? Because THAT is what this site is about. The Watchtower is judgmental and condemning. Bible Students are not that I am aware of. I don’t expect you to stand before me and give me an accounting of what you do as if I am Christ. However, if you are going to use this forum to preach your understanding of true doctrine as fact… then why not start with the most important one? That is LOVE. 1 Corinthians 13:8-13 (NASB)

      I simply asked, “Please build us up by telling us how we can show love to our neighbor and help those in physical pain who are hungry, poor and sick. What do you do in these areas?”

      You made this comment, “If you want to go work a soupline,feeding people,fine.That’s not the work Jesus said Christians were to put as priority one.Ignore that if you want.”

      I ask you this, “Is it a priority at all in your opinion?” We both know what Jesus said don’t we? Love your neighbor as yourself. What did that mean? I feed myself and guess what, that is priority number one because if I don’t, I will die. We are to recognize Jesus true disciples by the LOVE they have. John 13:35 Many give lip service to Christ but do nothing for their brother. Many will turn and run the other way just because others do not agree with their doctrine. Where you going to run to? Who are your brothers that agree with you 100%? We do not force our beliefs on anyone who comes to this website nor do we condemn/judge anyone. It is our goal to show love to our brothers and sisters that have been tossed about by the WT/JWorg.

      I am sorry if you feel the need to leave but that is your right. Please know that I love you, I am truly sorry if I am out of line, I say that to you, JJ and Andrew and everyone else on this site.

      I stand here to receive any counsel that you or any other have to give me,
      I love YOU John my brother and I am sorry,
      Maybe I could have said things in a different way, I don’t know, JJ has had to edit my comments many times and I have always trusted him as well as Andrew to do so.
      Your brother in Christ,


  47. Disappointed says:

    Bro Greybeard and Bro John… I love you both and feel saddened by your words to each other.. :(
    Sometimes I think our human imperfections get in the way of what is important.
    Please make up with each other. And I say the same to all the dear brothers that seem to have fallen out with other over the last few days.
    It will make our Lord happy… and it will make me happy.. 😉


    • DanielB says:

      Thank you Sister Disappointed . You truly work for observing the Oneness , in the uniting bond of peace . I say things sometimes too that could send someone off , angered over it , and for that I appologize . The hot words that come to mind are “bite” and even “devour” . When Paul was paving the way among the Galatians there was influence from the Judaisers and issues such as circumcision to contend with during this transitional time in Christian history . He had to hang in teaching the same words as Leviticus 19:18 , “You should love your neighbor as yourself ” . Gal. 5:14 And vs. 15 : “On the other hand if you continue to bite and devour one another watch out that you are not consumed by one another . ” Now That was indeed a somewhat barbaric region of Asia , with rocky terrain and people resembling that .

      Unfortunately we can’t just walk to the car with a brother or sister after meeting here and share words that could very well clear the air . We are public . Also , we may have additional words of reassurance that are hard to initially get out at a keyboard .

      I really DO have good confidence in these brothers when disagreements come up though . Especially since our Lord who keeps helping us , and dwelling in us , is Good !

      Love to you all .


  48. Disappointed says:

    They all just need to have a huge cyber hug! 😉


    • Amos says:

      Greetings all,

      I must agree with Br. John. I will however go a step further & very clearly state that I believe ALL religion & religious movements ARE CULTS!!!

      Each one of them in some way or another, bind up their adherents & hold them captive, the BS’s are no different to any other. I don’t mean the individual persons, but the movement.

      I believe that Sr. Willie is a beautiful person & well meaning, but this doesn’t excuse what she believes to be the truth. The BS doctrines are fundamentally flawed in various areas, just the same as the JW’s beliefs are in other areas, & on you go with each denomination.

      Well, I’ve said my piece for now.

      Be of good cheer, Amos


      • Brother Amos,

        You know I love you. We’ve had some wonderful chats over the last year or two but I must take an exception to something you said.

        “I believe that Sr. Willie is a beautiful person & well meaning, but this doesn’t excuse what she believes to be the truth. The BS doctrines are fundamentally flawed in various areas, just the same as the JW’s beliefs are in other areas, & on you go with each denomination.”

        I assure you that some beliefs you hold are fundamentally flawed also. So what makes you different from Sister Willie or anyone else? While she may hold one belief that turns out to be flawed, you hold another belief that is just as fundamentally flawed. This is the case despite each of you thinking your beliefs are scriptually sound. I’m am confident that if the Holy Spirit revealed any incorrect thinking to either one of you, that you each would change immediately! No one has a corner on all truth nor are they free from error. I haven’t noticed any error on Sister Willie’s part that would deny her a seat at the Lords table, have you? Just keeping it real my brother.



        • Amos says:

          Brother Dennis,

          I do understand what you are saying. I think that when I posted the statement that you’ve responded to, that perhaps I didn’t convey clear enough what I was meaning. Which is;

          1. “I believe ALL religion & religious movements ARE CULTS!!!”

          This should have, but obviously didn’t give the fact that I was not directing my comments at Sr. Willie on a personal level.

          2. “but this doesn’t excuse what she believes to be the truth.”
          Yet again, not the person but the belief. That is Bible Student.

          3. “The BS doctrines are fundamentally flawed in various areas, just the same as the JW’s beliefs are in other areas, & on you go with each denomination.”
          As you quoted this yourself, I thought that you’d understand it wasn’t directed at the person, but rather at the BS’s belief system, the JW’s, ETC, ETC.

          Of course I agree with you that none of us have ALL the truth, & I wasn’t infering that myself or anyone else did.

          Your brother in the Lord, Amos


  49. humbleman says:

    Hi Bro Amos please enlighten me to which one of us isn’t flawed in our understanding of the scriptures ? the bible students have no governing body each congregation is run independently. i know you all ready know this but my point is if everything is a cult then who can we associate with ? what is the difference in going to a bible student meeting and us meeting here online. is anyone who doesn’t agree with your interpretation of scripture flawed ? what if there right and your view is wrong ? bible students are allowed freedom of thought i would say you would be hard pressed two find two brothers on this website who agree on everything.. Bro john s i don’t disagree with you about the scriptures in revelation. but you seem to put more emphasis on them. than Jesus being a ransom for all. i guess its just how one views the scriptures. i guess all we can do is try our best and show each other love


    • Amos says:

      Hi Bro Amos please enlighten me to which one of us isn’t flawed in our understanding of the scriptures ? the bible students have no governing body each congregation is run independently. i know you all ready know this but my point is if everything is a cult then who can we associate with ? what is the difference in going to a bible student meeting and us meeting here online. is anyone who doesn’t agree with your interpretation of scripture flawed ? what if there right and your view is wrong ? bible students are allowed freedom of thought i would say you would be hard pressed two find two brothers on this website who agree on everything.. Bro john s i don’t disagree with you about the scriptures in revelation. but you seem to put more emphasis on them. than Jesus being a ransom for all. i guess its just how one views the scriptures. i guess all we can do is try our best and show each other love

      Dear brother, if you’ve been following my posts on this site & the forum since I’ve been on them, you wouldn’t have need to ask these questions as you’d see that I have clearly demonstrated other than you think. Please read my reply to Dennis as this will give you some insight into what my thoughts are.

      The “association together” has also been dealt with, so I’m not going to go through this again. If you want to discuss anything one on one, please feel free to email me directly.


  50. John S says:

    Well,I am just blown away by all of you.I go and judge and jump on this one or that,preach my way or the highway,and condemn half the population to the flames,AND YOU STILL WANT ME TO STAY?What’s wrong with you people? Man,I’m trying my best,it looks like to get thrown off,and still you say you love me.Well,I’m impressed.Willie,Humbleman,Andrew,Greybeard,and JJ too and all the Bible Students I called down thunder upon.I don’t know what to say.This has been one TOUGH DAY.
    I don’t know what or how to put it,or how to resolve the issue of Bible truth.I guess I’m naive because I thought I was on the money on the gospel.Revelation?Man there’s a can of worms I can’t even begin to unwind.All I can do is try to figure it out later.I concentrate on one thing,sometimes for months.Do any of you? Andrew,I think you said you worked on that for a long time;1914?Why can’t we take a group of brothers and sisters and work on a topic of difficulty for say a week?Say put 5 sharp cookies on it,and see what they come up with.That’s what I begged Peter K to do over there for months,but he is SET,on Russell.Written in stone set.I just can’t SWALLOW those far-out explanations.Like sister Willie,I love you to death,but man,what you just wrote down about the Pyramid……I just have to throw up my hands,I give up.I just want to drive halfway across the US and look you in the eyes when you say these things.Where can we even get started here? Does anyone have any suggestions?
    Daniel,what do you think?And I’m totally embarrased to have thrown a fit in front of our little sisters D and Confused,let alone sweet Humbleman,who truly does fill the boots of his monicker.This wasn’t an impasse here.Lately we have had a major meltdown.Ed,where are you,buddy.Get over here please,and give us a hand.What do you think is going on?Andrew,Greybeard,JJ,Siam,even,I know I burned your ears too,I’m sorry.



    • greybeard says:

      Dear brother John,

      I do admire you enthusiasm but do you really think it is possible to get “5 sharp cookies” to agree on everything? The members of the governing body of Jehovah’s Witnesses can’t do it. They make the mistake of voting on a subject and then demanding that ALL agree with their doctrine. Could it be that we must wait and see what God/YHWH reveals in his own due time? One subject that has been discussed on these blogs before you came along was the subject of Israel. Will YHWH protect them from the other nations in these end times for his name sake or has spiritual Israel replaced them all together? I felt one way about it and Andrew felt another. We both have our strong opinions and that is what they are, opinions. I can honestly say, I really don’t know, I just feel a curtain way… We won’t really know until it is over will we? So Andrew and I remain close brothers and do not let this doctrinal belief trip us up. Do you think we should continue to hammer it out and make a decision that all should agree on? My opinion is that will be impossible. There is nothing wrong with discussing these types of things in a loving way without insulting the others view. We can have “all knowledge” but when we become “puffed up” and start insulting it shows a lack of love for our brother. I have been guilty of this myself… We have been warned that arguing about words also overturns those who listen. 2 Timothy 2:14

      How did Christ go about his ministry? The only ones he ever condemned were those who thought they knew it all, the pharisees. How did Christ attract people to his ministry? He cured the sick, the blind, feed people and resurrected the dead. He gave these gifts to his disciples too. He attracted people with gifts of mercy and forgave their sins. The pharisees also condemned him for forgiving sins…

      How can we imitate Christ? That is the question? How can we attract others to Christ? What gifts of mercy can we share? Is our message one of condemnation or is it one of forgiveness? Are not these the things we should be focusing on? “Faith, hope, and love abide” and they will abide forever, WE STILL HAVE THAT! We do not still have the knowledge the disciples had.

      My opinion is if we focus on what we do know and continue in “faith, hope and love” showing love to our fellow man. As time goes by more will be revealed by Gods holy spirit. 1 John 2:26-27

      With much affection for you brother John and all here,
      Your brother in Christ,
      A good for nothing slave 😉


  51. John S says:



  52. humbleman says:

    Hi Bro John i just want to extend my brotherly love to you. and everyone on this site. i don’t post to often on here although i do stop by every day to look at everyone Else’s posts :) the way i see things is all of us are in this together and we are all trying our best. some of us may understand certain bible topics better than others but we all play a part we all have weaknesses but we also all have strengths. as regards picking a topic and each of us gathering all the scriptures related to that issue i would love to participate in that. how about having Heaven for a topic. perhaps a couple of us could do a detailed study of Ezekiel’s temple after all it is a shadow of the things to come. and then somebody could gather scriptures from the new testament just a thought but please count me inn :)


  53. John S says:

    Hey,BroHum,Thanks for the good thought,but man you picked a topic I’ve no idea where to start.That Ezekiel’s temple,now that would be interesting to see what could be done about that one.What 8 chapters,9?Well at least you figured it was a somewhat neutral-zone.Good idea.It must be something you’ve wondered about.And then there’s Heaven.Yes,that is one I’ve seen us pass around.I was working on the consecration,never finished it ,though.But the 144,000,sister Willie asked me some viable questions about that one,that I feel we should definitely ALL comment on such an important topic,and not let that go to the back burner indefinitely.By the way,Sis. Willie,what would you say is the difference between consecration and anointing?
    Maybe we could pick a topic and put it at the front,and ALL talk about it together instead of on the forum,or would that be a total disaster?

    nting,if any?


  54. Willie says:

    Dear Br. John, You asked, “…what would you say is the difference between consecration and anointing?” My guess is that they could be used interchangeably. Personally, I had never noticed the word “anointing” used in this way before visiting this site; although it is so used I John 2:27. I had only thought of anointing to be like the ointments poured on Jesus’ feet (twice) and head (once) as we read in the Scriptures. Moses anointed Aaron by pouring oil on his head and all the high priests were similarly anointed, I believe. The sick were anointed with oil in James 5:14.

    I’m not sure that all BS are apprised of all the details and the seriousness of consecration, as I understand it; but personally I use the word “consecration” to mean that one has accepted Jesus Christ as their Savior and has forfeited his restitution rights as a sacrifice (the Lord’s goat picture in Lev. 16:15) for the opportunity to run for the prize of the high calling in Christ Jesus (I Cor. 9:24; Phil. 3:14). Apparently the Jehovah’s Witnesses use “anointing” to mean something similar. At this time it seems to me to be merely a matter of semantics. Would anyone like to give an explanation on the meaning of “anointing” from the Jehovah’s Witnesses’ perspective?

    By the way, Br. John, all BS do not believe as I do on the Great Pyramid. About a decade ago I talked to an elder from Canada who was speaking at the convention I was attending that weekend and he most certainly did not. You really can’t pin many BS beliefs on the group as a whole. We’re all individually responsible to God for what we believe (II Tim. 2:15).

    As a little history which everyone may not know: After the death of Pastor Russell there were reportedly 66 different divisions coming from the original International Bible Students in the US alone. Gradually they almost all disappeared. The WTS is the one that thrived in terms of numbers; the original Bible Students are perhaps second. The Layman’s Home Missionary Group and the Epiphany Bible Students Association are alive and well, though they teach that the Bride Class was completed in 1914. There is another church that I attended in the 70’s with my children called the Church of God of the Abrahamic Faith which teaches “earthly restitution” only. I do not know if they were connected to the original IBS, nor do I remember the “parent” group name, but they did publish a denominational magazine and had their own songbook.

    Would anyone like to comment on the following scripture? “In that day shall there be an altar to the LORD in the midst of the land of Egypt, and a pillar at the border thereof to the LORD. And it shall be for a sign and for a witness unto the LORD of hosts in the land of Egypt: for they shall cry unto the LORD because of the oppressors, and he shall send them a saviour, and a great one, and he shall deliver them” (Isaiah 19:19,20). What is the “altar” or “pillar” in the land of Egypt? What is the “altar” in Rev. 16:7? The words “another out of” in that verse are supposed to be spurious, so it would read: “And I heard the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.”

    Sister Willie


  55. Willie says:

    Dear Br. John, You said, “The bible in Rev.17:15 says the harlot who sits on waters means she is composed of many people,she is thrown into the Lake of fire at Armageddon.Revelation 14:9-11 says the Beast and anyone receiving the mark will get thrown into the Lake of Fire. … Jesus said if you take the mark,you will be thrown into the second death.” First of all, Revelation (except for the numbers) is not “black and white”–it’s in symbols. May I suggest some? No one ever threw something into a fire to preserve it, so being thrown into a “lake of fire” means that it (whatever “it” is) is permanently destroyed.

    Most people agree that the BEAST (which is a religious government) in Revelation is always representative of the Papacy or Holy See, an internationally-recognized sovereign entity, AND the governing body of the Roman Catholic Church. The Church is always represented by a WOMAN–a VIRGIN for the true Church and a HARLOT for the false Church. The HARLOT who sits on many waters is singular, but WATERS is plural and represents “peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues”. The HARLOT/WHORE is destroyed as we read in Rev. 17:16 by the ten horns, but NOT by being cast into the lake of fire. The ten horns are ten powers [probably nations of Europe], {17} “For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled. {18} And the woman which thou sawest is that great city [Rome], which reigneth over the kings of the earth. Rev. 17:9 also identifies Rome, the seven-hilled city. Expect Rome to be destroyed.

    Rev. 16:13-15 indicates that three unclean spirits will come out of the mouths of the dragon, the beast and the false prophet. {14} “For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings [‘of the earth and’ is redundant and considered spurious] of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. … {16} And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.” There is no mention of Second Death in regard to the wicked until Rev. 20:6, so I can’t make the connection of your saying, “she [the harlot] is thrown into the Lake of fire at Armageddon,” which word is found only once in the Bible–here in Rev. 16:16.

    Later the FALSE PROPHET (Rev. 19:20; 20:10) representing the Protestant systems will be thrown into the lake of fire with the BEAST, and it is these two SYSTEMS that will be permanently destroyed–not necessarily the people in them. Finally Satan, the devil that deceived “the number of whom is as the sand of the sea”–a multitude of people (Rev. 20:8-10), will also be cast into the lake of fire and brimstone at the end of the Kingdom after he is loosed for a little season and goes out to deceive the nations. {14} “And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. {15} And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.” In verse 9, “fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them”–all symbolism for permanent destruction.

    A cleansed Earth will then be ready to be turned back over to the heavenly Father. Perhaps billions have died. The “peaceable Kingdom” predicted by many will not be very peaceable if Jesus is having to rule with a “rod of iron,” but he WILL have everything under his control and not even the animals will be allowed to hurt or destroy in all his holy mountain (Isa. 65:25). Some pretty rough people will be emerging from the sleep of death and they will either “bow the knee” and conform to the Kingdom rules or perish, as we read in John 3:16. OBEDIENCE is what it will be all about, just like it was in the Garden of Eden–just like it still is today.


    Sister Willie


  56. John S says:

    As far as Babylon the Great goes,this is a reprehensible organization that is a lover of money,has singers,weddings, involves itself in the commercial affairs of the world,and has influenced(rode) the backs of mighty governments.But the main reason she is to be killed is her bloodguilt,as she murders the prophets,the Holy Ones(anointed Christians)and “all those slaughtered on the face of all the earth.” This is surely a generalized term that implies she has misled her people to their demise.God is destroying her by using her own political governmental allies.So… the Catholic church in Rome?Well,certainly that it has done these things is common knowledge,look at history,recent and distant.Other groups may fit the bill.Individuals associated with this bloodguilty type of religion,or organizations or people who are bloodguilty will share her fate it says,”receive PART of her plagues.” She wiil be completely burned with fire,according to God’s purpose for revenge and justice.(Rev,18:4,8)Which part of her plagues those who are influenced will receive will be Jehovah’s business.But I’m positive that there will be many wicked people that will be judged as going to burn in eternal death,as these monster organizations are full of monsters,or they would’t exist.It’s ridiculous to think that the destruction of Babylon will just be the burning of some office equipment out on the curb,such as might occur when a business goes bankrupt.This is talking about taking revenge upon bloodguilty PEOPLE who are murderers,and Father Jah is going to kill them…..simple.Those who aren’t bloodguilty,but that follow along with the group,may survive,but will receive part of the plagues,death,and mourning,and fire.I don’t know all the details,but it shows some are going to the lake of fire;simple.
    Now this is the same principle,but with a huge twist,for all those who worship the Beast at the last,which Beast may be the one who kills Babylon(?)Those who take the mark are doomed,thrown into the Lake of fire.The Wild Beast,and the False Prophet are there too,and the armies that work and butcher for them.These are made up of people,armies,people who have accepted the mark so they can operate in the business world,or just buy and sell life’s necessities,possibly.I see this as the final showdown,the Beast comes up against Christians,compelling them to take the mark,they refuse.They are tortured,some or nearly all are killed,then Christ comes with the clouds and “repays tribulation” back upon the persecutors and those who have killed the Christians.Armageddon.The return of Christ.The destruction of ungodly men.The Day of Jehovah.Millions and millions are going to die and be “thrown into Gehenna”,a fiery garbage dump,where lost ones were burnt up outside Jerusalem.The “Lake of Fire”.Thes are all Christ words,not mine.If you have problems with these scriptures,take it to the Lord,as he said these things,not I….2 Thess.1:6-10.
    I also see the parable of the sheep and the goats(Matt,25:31-46) harmonizes perfectly with it’s placement in Jesus’ giving of the sign of the last days,as it occurs in the end of the last days,the reaping of the wheat and weeds being a similar illustration.,wich also says the harvest is a conclusion of the system of things.It is the same event.The destruction of evil men at the end is what paves the way for the New Earth.This has been explained over and over by the Lord,Apostle Paul and Apostle Peter and John in the Revelation.Bible Students aren’t accepting the clear-cut simple explanations the Lord and the others are giving,why?
    The Bible Students are insisting that God is ALL FORGIVING and is not going to judge anyone in this time,what they call the age of dispensation,I believe.The Christian age.The time of the harvest of the wheat,the weeds(which is also called grapes of wrath in Revelation 14:8)is near I believe.So if we are doing wicked things,our end is very near.Most all people of the earth know about Christ,and if not,they have a human-guide,their conscience.Some have chosen to become completely corrupted.That was also their choice,and they know they willingly did these evil things and are not sorry.They have thrown themselves in the judgement,as anybody is answerable for his own actions,as we all have hearts,brains and consciences.What’s wrong with with God taking them out now? Why let them loose in the New Earth?That’s what the “New” in New Earth means.No wicked,those that survive the Great Tribulation are those who have faith and love for Christ maybe weren’t anointed,but trying,believing,and their belief washed their robes,it appears .The Bible indicates this issue of the Wild Beast versus Christianity becomes a big deal at the end,a showdown all people will likely know about.(Rev.7:9)This is the way I see it and it’s logical to me and is what the scriptures are saying,not me.OK,I may be wrong,but this is the Knowledge I am working with as I preach the Lord’s message.This is what he has explained he is going to do,and I am thankful he’s going to do it this way.It is a deliverance from wicked men.I would like to close my part in the discussion here,as I don’t wish to bat this ball around at this time but for just this once as you asked.I have a very limited time left on this site,maybe days or less.So I will spend it on encouraging the Rebirth of the Holy Spirit on the forum,Gospel of John.If you want to talk with me about the information back there,I will be glad to heat from you.


  57. John S says:

    Sister Willie.Thanks for the discussing the Revelation.I see you stated the New Earth as a place where a cleansed condition exists;after the thousand years has ended,and Satan has been destroyed.I begin to see your thinking now.I am hoping for a cleansed condition to be at the start of the 1000 years,the beginning of the reign of Christ where he sits down on his throne and commences ruling “In the midst of his enemies” (Ps.110 and Psalm 2)It is at this time the illustrations of Christ such as,the ‘Dragnet’,Wheat and Weeds’,the “Wicked Cultivators”,Sheep and Goats”,and especially ’10 Virgins’…are all placed; at the Harvest time.The 1000 years to me,is not the harvest time,the “conclusion of the system of things”,right now ,is that,the harvest of the Sons of the Kingdom,not all mankind,as will be during the Millenium.The Kingdom has destroyed its enemies at Armagedon,the end of the harvest,as the church has gone up to the sky and met the Lord at this time(Matt.21:41,44,and Matt.22:5-7).There is no way for understanding any of these illustrations as occurring during the 1000 year peaceful rule of the Kingdom as I see it.The holy ones are already in heaven at that time,so none of those illustrations,which all picture the gathering of the holy anointed brothers of Christ still on earth,could be fulfilled in that time period.Do you see where I’m coming from?
    This is why I still lean on the thought that the end of the appointed “times of Gentile Rule” prophesied I feel in the words in Ezekiel 21 to King Zedekiah,the last ruling king of Judah till Christ receives the Kingdom in the heavens,and the prophecies concerning the Messiah’s taking back the Kingdom of the world,and not just the Judaic kingdom of Israel(see Rev.11:15)that this occurs sometime around what these brothers were discussing earlier,the actual time of the fall of Jerusalem(607-587…and 2,520 years forwarded…the Kingdom rule is handed to Messiah,Christ as describred in Dan.7….possibly 1914-1934,or somewhere thereabouts). This is Not,I repeat NOT PREDICTING THE DAY OF Armageddon,that Jesus refers to,the day or hour,but the event recorded at Matt.24:3,and 25:31-47,when the Son of man takes his throne in heaven,this precedes a time of “Woe for the earth and for the sea,because the Devil has come down to you,having great anger,KNOWING HE HAS A SHORT PERIOD OF TIME(the time of the end).I wanted to go into a full -length discussion of “the Kingdom of the Seed” on the forum for this reason,as to me it is a certainty that Rev.11,and 12 occur in heaven well before Armageddon ,and that Satan’s fall down to earth,and his last rampage,are what initiate the time of the end.The ousting of Satan is described as the thing that occurs as a consequence of the Kingdom of the world becoming the kingdom of the Lord and his Christ.This is the period of time in heaven when Christ actually takes the throne after 7 times of 360 years for each ‘time’ passes….the”appointed times of the nation’s”, rule without the Kingdom’s interference.Long story that if I can I will start shortly on the forum.(Dan.4) This to me is secondary to the main thing I feel is important for Watchtower strugglers at this time,but for some,it is an important part of understanding what the “time of the end” actually means,and hence its import.Also all the questions some are asking about the ransom for all,1000 year Millenium,destruction of wicked,all the things that those of Bible Student or studying with them are intensely interested in.Its for their sake I would publish these thoughts,as I love these ones too,and would love to see some rational attempt to harmonize the understanding we have on the Millenium with the scriptures.I will welcome all comments and views of these brothers,too on that forum.I will get that up this week ,God-willing.


  58. Eve says:

    Hi JJ,
    Today I had a conversation with a friend that was a bit similar to yours with your friend though it was much shorter and we had it on Facebook chat (and in Hungarian :). But her arguments were somewhat the same as your friend’s. She also can see the problems within the organization and has no illusions in connection with men but says we have to put up with this imperfect organization because this is what we have and Jehovah’s Witnesses are still relatively the best place to learn about the Bible. I sent her weeks ago the COC, but she said she had not begun to read it yet because now she felt balanced and she felt she might lose it. Before sending her the pdf file I asked her if she wanted it and I even told her it was written by an ex-GB member and I reminded her of the Society’s warning against such stuff. Nevertheless she wanted it but did not dare to begin reading it yet. Of course I did not urge her and told her I didn’t want to influence her in any way, I wanted COC to do that. My friend says she thinks we have more important things to do, that is preaching, than to argue over things like this and that this is one of Satan’s traps for us. But I’ve told her I just cannot go to the ministry any more with good conscience and offer magazines whose content I cannot agree with in 100 per cent. I still attend meeting sometimes. My friend contemplates telling the elders about me. I’m not afraid of what they would say. I cannot think in any other way after reading RF’s book. I know for sure that he was an honest man and did not alter the truth.
    So I think many witnesses can put up with the imperfection of the WT and I could as well with some but issues about people dying for being faithful to something that is changed the next year and the GB not even batting an eyelid let alone admitting and apologizing for their mistake make me say that enough is enough.
    Christian love to you all.


  59. JJ says:

    Sister Eve

    Thanks so much for sharing that exchange of your own. Hopefully your friend will continue to keep the lines of communication open with you.

    We cannot “drag someone” out of the organization, nor should we as you have shown. But we can give them our heartfelt and scriptural reasons for our view, and then leave it in God’s hands.


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