approaching jehovah's witnesses in love

An excellent book for reasoning with Jehovah's Witnesses

Longtime Christian minister Wilbur Lingle wrote an excellent book in 1994, and then updated it in 2004,  entitled “Approaching Jehovah’s Witnesses in Love”. This book analysis and review contains some thoughts about what and how Mr. Lingle wrote his book, and the ways it has been encouraging and instructive to me personally as someone who has close friends and family members that are asleep within the Organization.

As most of you know my goal (which is shared by many of us here on the JWS site) is to gain Christian Freedom from a man-made structure that creates doctrinal creeds to control our conscience. Another goal of mine is to help others among my JW brotherhood (especially friends and family members within the movement) to see that there is more than one rigid way to serve God besides underneath the banner and tutelage of the Watchtower Society. And it is for this reason I feel that the book helps in both ways.

The subtitle to Lingle’s book, below the main title adds: “How to Witness Effectively Without Arguing”. Isn’t that a refreshing approach and sentiment? So often when we try and share TTATT with a Witness, it devolves quickly into an argument. We are not looking for fights! Notice these verses:

But a slave of the Lord does not need to fight, but needs to be gentle toward all, qualified to teach, keeping himself restrained under evil, instructing with mildness those not favorably disposed; as perhaps God may give them repentance leading to an accurate knowledge of truth, and they may come back to their proper senses out from the snare of the Devil, seeing that they have been caught alive by him for the will of that one. (2 Timothy 2:24-26, New World Translation)

Here it is from the Good News Bible:

As the Lord’s servant, you must not quarrel. You must be kind toward all, a good and patient teacher, who is gentle as you correct your opponents, for it may be that God will give them the opportunity to repent and come to know the truth. And then they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the Devil, who had caught them and made them obey his will.  (2Ti 2:24-26, GNB)

The book can be ordered on Amazon.com.  Many people there have reviewed the book, and I found several of the reviews to be illuminating, so some have been copied and pasted below. Also some comments from other internet sites reviewing the book are included. Note that some comments were edited slightly for brevity, and any bracketed words are mine and were added for clarity.

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Rev. Lingle has walked his talk, with years of experience in witnessing to JW’s. What’s more, if you call him, he is eager to help you personally with any questions you have in witnessing to your loved ones involved with the Watchtower Society. His approach to witnessing using a series of questions based on John 5:24 is the most useful, concise one I’ve ever seen. (See page 221)

This book is practical, biblical, and goal-oriented. Lingle is honest about what witnessing methods to JW’s work and which ones don’t work. His basic philosophy is to place doubts in the JW’s mind about the infallibility of the Watchtower Society. He relays documentation from their own literature of the changes the WTS has made over the years in its beliefs and practices.

This book would be an excellent place to start your with your response to the Jehovah’s Witnesses at your door or in your life.

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I met Wilbur Lingle this past weekend in Pennsylvania. Mr. Lingle was a very nice man and I can assure you that he is not getting rich off of his ministry. If anything, he is probably making sacrifices in order to get the word out about the [JWs]. His books are nicely written and have been instrumental in helping myself and many others to talk to JWs. 

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This book asks some very thought provoking questions. The purpose of this is to get Jehovah’s Witnesses to think for themselves. The biggest problem with the members of this organization is that although they ask others to be open minded in their witnessing effort, they are very closed minded themselves and will not even consider looking at something written by outsiders relating to the Bible. In taking this approach, they are not taking their own advice, even though it is scriptural. “Test all things, hold fast to what is good” (1 Thess. 5:21) This publication does not attempt to demean members of this group, but to help them think on their own. The thought provoking questions given here should help the ones who are honest hearted to see that the points being made are logical and scriptural.

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He is a selfless man who I have spoken to several times…Wilbur was a missionary in Japan for many years.

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A most excellent, must have tool for those studying with Jehovah’s Witnesses! …This book offers frank, easy to use, easy to understand help in dealing with Jehovah’s Witnesses out of love.

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 He wrote in the “Overview” to this 1994 book, “I have not written from theory, but from eighteen years of study and personal witnessing to Jehovah’s Witnesses. (The book) shows how you can have meaningful, non-confrontational encounters with a Jehovah’s Witness over many weeks. It also explains how you can get him to open his heart by first building a friendship with him, and then asking him questions to make him THINK regarding the Watchtower organization… This approach does not attack the individual. Rather, using the information in this book will bring one to the point where he will be willing to listen amicably to the message of salvation.” (Page 14)

Here are some additional quotations from the book:

“Question #1: When one looks at the Watchtower publications he soon notices that the writers quote from many different books and encyclopedias in order to try to prove their beliefs and teachings… Since they read and quote from so many sources, it seems to suggest that there are many good books on the market which are not written by Jehovah’s Witnesses and yet contain a lot of the truth that agrees with the Watchtower’s teachings. Are you as a Jehovah’s Witness free to read these various books?” (Pg. 144)

“If the teaching is true that only 144,000 persons will go to heaven, I would like to know how there could possibly be any openings left when Charles Russell came upon the scene in 1880? The Book of Acts mentions at least 60,000 people saved, and this was only the beginning of the growth of Christianity… Also there were over 250,000 martyrs who would surely be included in the 144,000…” (Pg. 147)

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There are a few negative reviews, but it seems they are primarily from ones that are Jehovah’s Witnesses themselves. Here are a couple:

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If you want to “witness” to one of Jehovah’s Witnesses, do what Jesus commanded his followers to do, go out and preach and make disciples (Matt 28:19), and seek them out. Jehovah’s Witnesses respect their neighbors and their beliefs. This book is a classic example of a bitter former JW, It’s quite simple, in sports if you don’t follow the rules, what happens? That’s right you get disqualified or booted from the team. Likewise when God’s high standards, outlined in his word are not adhered too, then that person is removed. Simple. The author, if he chose to not be one of Jehovah’s Witnesses any longer, should first of all, stop being bitter and find something more productive to do with his time, as most former members should do also.

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WHERE did he get the idea that MOST witnesses do NOT want to go door to door? I am grandpa to a kid who LOVES the work! My daughter of 20 – single, sweet, still a virgin – is a pioneer and goes out for LOVE of JEHOVAH, not for some guilt or whatever. [Lingle] is all wet. Hence my question, which likely will remain rhetorical: has he ever MET any of Jehovah’s people?

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Regarding these two negative comments, it should be noted that Mr. Lingle has never been one of Jehovah’s Witnesses and so would not be eligible for shunning as current Witnesses are required to do of former members. Also, the author has met and spoken with scores of Jehovah’s Witnesses, and attended meetings at the Kingdom Hall many times, in a number of places.

So with no further ado, here is a small sample of “Approaching Jehovah’s Witnesses in Love”. I hope to feature a few more small excerpts from the book in future posts, and encourage you to buy the book if you feel it would benefit you or a loved one.

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“Approaching Jehovah’s Witnesses in Love”, excerpts from pages 106-107:

Christ said that we are not to kill and that a Christian should love his enemies as himself. How can you love your enemy if you kill him? Most of the “Christian” faiths have gone to war — “Christian” brother against “Christian” brother. I am talking about Catholics, all of the main Protestant groups, Mormons, and others. Jehovah’s Witnesses have not and will not go to war.

Not all of the mainline Protestant groups have gone to war. Several centuries before the Jehovah’s Witnesses came into existence, the Moravians and the Mennonites, not to mention the Quakers and some others, were against war. The statement “Jehovah’s Witnesses have not and will not go to war” is incorrect. The writer either did not know the history of the Society or he ignored it. For the first sixty years of the movement they [discouraged but] allowed their members to join the army and go to war. They didn’t change this policy until 1939. If the Bible is against war, why did it take them so many years to find this out? It is interesting to read in context the Bible reference about love. They render Luke 6:27-31 in the New World Translation as follows:

But I say to you who are listening, Continue to love your enemies, to do good to those hating you, to bless those cursing you, to pray for those who are insulting you. To him that strikes you on the one cheek, offer the other also; and for him that takes away your outer garment, do not withhold even the undergarment. Give to everyone asking you, and from the one taking your things away do not ask (them) back. Also, just as you want men to do to you, do the same way to them.

Jehovah’s Witnesses don’t practice this kind of love. They treat those disfellowshipped from the Society as enemies. [It may be added that this is especially the case with those that disagree with official WT doctrine and are labeled “apostates”] The Witnesses will not speak to them or have any-thing to do with them, nor will they show a drop of love to them.

The Witnesses go door to door, but if you try to visit them, [or ask them to accept any literature] they will tell you to leave. Once I made an appointment with a Witness to come to my house and had him agree to visit me at least ten times. He agreed to do so. However, he came only once, so I went to his house. After a short time, even though he was the one asking the questions, I was told to “leave in five minutes” or he would call the police. I left immediately but he still called the police.

Another time, Jehovah’s Witnesses were in my area and left an invitation to come to their Kingdom Hall. I did go. After attending three meetings, people started talking to me and asking me questions which I answered. In the middle of the conversation, as I was answering questions asked by a Witness, the elders told me to leave. I replied that I would leave when I finished the conversation. The elders called the police and had me put out of the hall. When I asked what I had done wrong, they only said that I had been told to leave.

I have never experienced any of the love that the Jehovah’s Witnesses say that they show to their enemies. I should receive a lot of love from them! I do not hate Jehovah’s Witnesses, but I do hate their false teachings. I love [these] people and want to win them to Christ.

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As taken from Approaching Jehovah’s Witnesses in Love by Wilbur Lingle, pages 106-107. (Bracketed text and emphasis inserted for clarity)

Mr. Lingle’s website is: www.lovetoshareministries.com.

Rating 4.20 out of 5
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64 Comments on “Approaching Jehovah’s Witnesses in Love” – Part 1

  1. DanielB says:

    Very good bro JJ .

    As long as I was a witness , it was a common understanding that any who are shunned are to be treated as dead ; and in fact such words are repeated by them , when it is said , ” We can’t legally kill them , so we disfellowship ” .

    Luke 6: 27-31 , quoted above in the book , is ignored by that practice , as well as ignoring Yeshua’s warning at John 16: 2,3 (NWT) :

    ” Men will expel you from the synagogue . In fact , the hour is coming when everyone that kills you will imagine he has rendered a sacred service to God . But they will do these things because they have not come to know either the Father or me . ”

    John 9: 22 was a 1st-century experience application .

    As with Wilbur Lingle , I too hope that many witnesses will come to see what they have been doing in relation to the words of the Head of the Church .

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  2. v says:

    Great answer DanielB.

    John 9:22 is a beauty! Yes Don’t say you love Jesus to much in the Kingdom hall.
    You may get your walking papers. DISFELLOWSHIPPED!

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  3. Wakeupwitness says:

    What’s amazing is I have seen more genuine, real love from so called “worldly” people than I ever did the 30 years I was an active witness. Jw’s love is conditional. They love you and associate with you as long as you: attend meetings, give comments, go out in field service, give talks, go to circuit assemblies, go to district conventions, and be the model witness.
    The real truth is that most witnesses live a double life. They are one way at the meetings and another way at work or school.
    I have seen it first hand in many cases.

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    • “The real truth is that most witnesses live a double life. They are one way at the meetings and another way at work or school.
      I have seen it first hand in many cases.”

      Wakeupwitness, your quote above is so true. I too seen this all the time. It was more common than not.

      Dennis

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  4. Willie says:

    I would like to comment regarding this quote from the book by Mr. Lingle, “If the teaching is true that only 144,000 persons will go to heaven, I would like to know how there could possibly be any openings left when Charles Russell came upon the scene in 1880? The Book of Acts mentions at least 60,000 people saved, and this was only the beginning of the growth of Christianity… Also there were over 250,000 martyrs who would surely be included in the 144,000…” (Pg. 147)

    Since we understand that Jesus, after his resurrection, appeared ONLY to the believers then we conclude that “above 500 brethren” were converted by the preaching and miracles of Jesus (I Cor. 15:6) and were priviledged to see him ascend into heaven (Acts 1:6-11). Acts 1:15 states that one hundred and twenty of these were assembled in the upper room awaiting the day of Pentecost. Acts 2:41 states, “Then they that gladly received his [Peter’s] word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.” Likewise in Acts 4:4 we read, “Howbeit many of them which heard the word believed; and the number of the men was about five thousand.” Generously considering the “more than 500″ to be 600 to include the Apostles and adding to that the 3,000 and the 5,000 equals 8,600 converted according to Acts–not 60,000. Later on Paul also had converts, both Jews and Gentiles, but lamented in his letter to Timothy, “This thou knowest, that all they which are in Asia be turned away from me….” (II Tim. 1:15). We really don’t know the total number of converts in the early church or since.

    Similarly we have no testimony to conclude that all martyers of any age were called and chosen (Rev. 17:14); though, if so, they did appear to be faithful unto death. “Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?” (Matt. 7:21,22). Also many who claim to be Christians are actually tares. (Matt. 13:37-43).

    If Elijah represents the Church (the 144,000 member Bride of Christ) as many believe, then the 7000 prophets or men who have not bowed their knee to Baal (I Kings 19:18; Rom. 11:1-4) would represent the Great Company, a lesser SPIRITUAL class who are also represented by Elisha and DO go to heaven. Though the Great Company is not actually numbered, millions WILL go to heaven! (Gen. 24:60). Unfortunately the WTS doesn’t teach teach this, but Charles Russell DID.
    Respectfully,
    Sister Willie

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    • scooby says:

      hi Sister,

      being for over 20 years a witness i decided to leave in 2003 not long after the United Nations NGO scandal. I came to realise that i had accepted, but never really studied for my self the history of the WT society.

      I realised that its history was always in a state of revision. I own a copy of all the “Studies in the Scriptures” of Paster russell plus many other works of his and feel very well read about him.

      Yes, the WTS believe nothing that Russell taught – even his Ransom for All Doctrine no longer is a WT cornerstone belief anymore.

      Russells two class doctrine of an anointed Class, and a Great company class of lesser christians who would enter heaven, Later under Rutherford this Great company class emerged as the Great crowd who would now only gain life on earth.

      but the problem with the movement is that with the greatest respect to you is partly of Russell’s own making. Although I Blame Rutherford alone for the current “Faithful and discreet slave Class” doctrine, because if there was a slave class in existence Russell certainly didnt know about it since the WTS cliams russell started he own bible study class “independently” of any denomination or religious affiliation. Therefore, no existing slave class passed to him the baton of truth. While in his own eyes of understanding he believed that He was “That faithful servant” sent of the master. But also if there is an unbroken Faithful slave class in existence then that would also prove Russell and the WT Organisation as frauds and false Prophets.

      Unfortunately, and i could give alot more detail on this but look uo the March 1st Watchtower of 2004, This magazine presents an article against its own Faithful and discreet slave class doctrine and so the article is laying a foundation for no Faithfull and discreet class linked to the WT Society. Isnt that amazing.

      So it matters little if Russell is right or wrong. If Russell does not connect to the slave class as the WT article suggests with much weight, then your love for his teachings however more laudable than the current teachings mean nothing. I think russell and the Organisation today have read and read into the old testament far to much in terms of “Types” and their anti typical fullfilment, sorry to say.

      It is because of the foundation of a false premise that today we this obsurd “Generations” doctrine.

      I don’t wish to be unkind but i am being realistic, It hurt terrible for me, I did’nt want to admit it, but some time the truth hurts. My plea to you would be to stay on this site, ask many questions and you will get many sincere answers.

      God Bless you Sister

      Regards

      Scooby

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  5. serein says:

    iv seen it also, infact one mother of 2 girls some years back saw my daughter who was 13 at the time with some lipstic on and she was going to the school disco she only had light pink on i dint normaly ever let her wear make up and i was only studying at the time, well she whent to tthe elders told on her and me and i ended up geting a talking to about letting my child wear make up and go discos,i felt ashamed and bad.i ended up being real hard on my eldest 3 children being to strict with them. they all grown up now. well i have a 13 year old son and he comes hom e and tells me that her daughters who are now teens are thick with make up and act like sluts at school.this is the womans children who got me into trouble. why did she do that, was it out of love,another sister used to come my house asked if i wanted to go for a walk with dogs ended up taking me in to pubs and being a rite flirt i just sat in corner trying to tell her i wanted to leave would she listen no and shed get drunk to. she was married with 2 children, i found out after that her husband told her off and she blamed me for it.theres alot goes on ant no one sees.

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  6. Amos says:

    Sorry to say, but I’ve seen similar things happen for too many years. I’m glad that I no longer need to associate with those who call themselves “brothers” & by their actions prove otherwise. It’s SOOOO good to be free at last. Free to talk to who we wish to, free to read God’s word as the Spirit directs us, etc, etc.

    BTW, we no longer need to look over our shoulder to see if we are being spyed on either.

    Amos

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  7. Willie says:

    Dear Scooby, Thank you for your thoughtful reply. You seem to have availed yourself of more understanding concerning Charles Russell’s ministry than the average JW. By their standards I know TOO much about him; so they don’t knock on my door anymore. Regardless of anyone’s opinion of C.T. Russell, without his “Tabernacles Shadows” and six volumes of “Studies in the Scriptures,” none of us would be on this site–regardless of what Rutherford changed them to when he came along. But do not worry about my appreciation of Pastor Russell’s teaching, for I adhere to the Bible ABOVE any man’s teaching.
    With that thought in mind, where in the Bible do you find a scripture to back up the idea of “a faithful and discreet slave CLASS”? I can’t find one. Along that same line, there is no such thing as “Apostlic Succession” which is taught by the Catholic Church in a similar effort to say, “We’re God’s representatives on earth because the progression of the faithful leads to US and Peter was our first pope [even though he was married].” Perhaps a billion Catholics and seven million members of the WTS believe this lie in their respective sanctuaries. What a clever trick!
    So why did you say, “but the problem with the movement is … partly of Russell’s own making[?]. Although I Blame Rutherford alone for the current ‘Faithful and discreet slave Class’ doctrine, because if there was a slave class in existence Russell certainly didnt know about it….” If Rutherford made up the doctrine, then how is it Charles Russell’s fault? He was dead and gone before Rutherford took over the International Bible Students and changed it into Jehovah’s Witnesses in 1931.You pointed out that Charles Russell believed that he was “that faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season? Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh [in 1874] shall find so doing. Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him [NOT A CLASS] ruler over all his goods” (Matt. 24:45-47). Charles T. Russell DID have total control of the IBS until the day he died. It seems to me that all evidence points out that Pastor Russell WAS the faithful and wise servant, although he NEVER PUBLICLY TAUGHT THIS. Judge Rutherford fits so perfectly the next verses in Matt. 48-51: “But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming [and changes the chronology to 1914 to ‘prove’ it]; And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken; The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, … and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites….”
    Finally, I propose that–while there have always been…

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  8. confused says:

    JJ
    Just read this early this morning….great reminders, came at a perfect time since my new neighbors are an elder and his wife from my old hall. :)

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  9. scooby says:

    hi
    Dear Sister Willie
    you certainly picked the bones off that one. your absolutely right in what you say. what you say of russell and rutherford is correct.I have the same books of russell that you quote plus many others. i also have many friends who are russellites here in wales in the uk.
    yes, the Scriptures are silent on such a class so its a lot like the theory of evolution, all what, ifs and maybe’s. its an assumption of lots of things, but lacking real intellectual and historical foundation. Its a false doctrine in the extreme to win converts like catholicism uses “apostolic succession” as you say,
    I think i too have a love for russell he certainly was loved by the brotherhood at that time.
    You quote russell correctely. i think it was some within the brotherhood who convinced him he was that servant and privately he did accept it, however as time went by he gradually did become more public about it. However he did not accept anything like what rutherford taught.
    Well, was russell to blame partly, i take this back as he could not have forseen what would change doctrinally. i can not think to what purpose i was eluding right now in laying blame to russell. so dont worry.
    The reply im reading cuts off where you write “finally……”
    so what are your feelings now – do you feel poorer for the Societies rejection of russells teachings.
    i wish i could read the last point you made but it got cut off. speak again soon i hope.
    Yes many would classify rutherford as the “evil slave” when you consider how he usurped control of the Organisation i would tend to agree

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    • Amos says:

      Sister Willie & Scooby,

      I do generally agree with what you have both said in these last two posts.

      I may have given the wrong impression of my view of CT Russell’s writings some months ago. I do have most of his books, including some original printings. While I don’t agree with all that he said, I think that most is worthy of consideration.

      Sister Willie, I agree with you that the bible itself is the standard by which we should base ALL our beliefs on.

      Scooby, my belief concerning the “evil slave” is that this applies to any who call themselves christian but then beat their fellow brethren by any means that is available to them. This can be in various ways, either verbally or by direct persecution & murder. The annals of history are full of varying atrocities that have been committed against God’s chosen people.

      Your brother in Christ,

      Amos

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    • I would encourage both JW’s who hold the idea that the FDS is a class of anointed Christians as represented today by the Governing Body and Bible Students the hold that Pastor Russell was that wise and faithful servent, to please listen to the following talk by Bible Studnet Elder (from the LA class) Brother Bob Carnegie. It can be found at the following link, http://www.columbusbible.com/archive.html. Click on the discourse archive button at the bottom of the page. When prompted, enter “brethren” as the username and “1874” as the password (all without quotation marks). Scroll almost half way down to date 2011.10.08 on the left hand side and look for the talk entitled “Are We Really Bible Students” by Brother Bob Carnegie. Click on the little audio link to the right to listen to the talk. While the whole talk is very good (as are his others) the information I ask you all to listen to can be found 17:34 min. into the talk. It starts with examination question #10. This can be applied to the FDS beliefs of both JW’s and BS’s. Brother Bob is a breath of fresh air in the BS movement and I think he is spot on with this information regarding Matt. 24:45 (which is a parable not a prophecy). It’s far easier for me to have you give it a listen than to type out the thoughts here. I am sure you’ll receive a blessing from this information. I know I did.

      Christian Love,
      Dennis

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      • DanielB says:

        Brother Dennis , this was a good discussion , and I thank you for this link , http://www.columbusbible.com/archive.html .

        I enjoyed the point throughout concerning “Imposed Bible understanding verses Plain Bible statements”. There is good discussion in the talk beginning where you said and beyond against looking to men ; time-calculation falacies ; and the 3 parables from halfway through Mathew 24 up to where they point , to 25: 13 .

        Thank you for this reinforcement of some things that we all seem to agree on . Very good !

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        • Hi Brother Daniel,

          You said “I enjoyed the point throughout concerning “Imposed Bible understanding verses Plain Bible statements”.”

          Glad you caught that. I loved those points!!!

          Dennis

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  10. scooby says:

    Hi Amos

    yes i would accept that wider view of that “Evil Slave” also.

    Although if we look at it the way I think Sister Willie understands,- ie that if the FDS was One Person” and applied soley within the context of Russell himself. then the “evil slave” would also be considered to be One Person. And as we all know rutherford was a hard task master etc etc. I think this is her point, as she questions the application of the FDS to a wider Group.

    thanks it will be interesting to know what Sister Willie thinks of our reply’s. I hope we’ve help in some small way.

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  11. Willie says:

    Dear Scooby, I am sorry that I cannot remember the end of my comment above. I rarely make a copy of what I am writing. I don’t know whose idea it was to limit our comments or what that limit is, so we could adhere to it in order not to lose our closing remarks which may sum up our comment and amount to the most important point that we were making. This is unfortunate!

    Could someone please let us know if it is a word limit, a line limit, or exactly what the limit is?

    Respectfully,
    Sister Willie

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  12. DanielB says:

    Sister Willie , I have seen this occur a few times too . It seems to always end with…. >(some dots like this) .

    It seems doubtful that there is any edited out words being done .

    It’s a mystery to me too ; I’m also curious .

    On the subject , it appears to me that Jesus’ illustration applies to the individuals who are either faithful and discreet , or evil , and that the application is eventually realized in a large number , as it is for “wheat & weeds” .

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  13. spike says:

    Hello all,

    I am going to read this books asap. As far as the above quotes about the number of anointed Christians in the first century, I don’t know where those are coming from. I don’t think any of knows a solid number. Here is an interesting quote from Brother Russel.
    It is from ” What pastor Russel said “.

    Quote from 1913

    I.B.S.A.–Re Membership Roll.
    Q347:2:: QUESTION (1913)–2–What Profession does
    a person need to make before he is entitled to be called an
    International Bible Student? How many are on the entire
    roll?
    ANSWER–There is no qualification for membership,
    no grips, no passwords. Any person of good deportment is
    welcome to our meetings at any time.
    As to the full number attending these different meetings I do
    not know. I do not know how many attend the Springfield
    class or classes. I do not know how many classes are held
    here in Springfield, but suppose there are at least a half dozen,
    as there are forty or fifty in New York City. I will just give as
    an estimate, in a general way, that there may be 100,000.
    Perhaps more attend these classes; perhaps 200,000. Come to
    think of it I heard recently from Southern India that there are
    now about 3,000 attending classes there. At that rate the
    entire attendance may run up to 250,000.

    You can see by the numbers at that time that a literal 144,000 would have been filled because they all believed they were anointed. Even if they were off by 100,000! So either all those numbers mentioned are false, making Pastor Russel neither faithful or discreet. Or everyone of those believing in Christ Jesus were mentally disturbed and needed to ask for forgiveness. Or the number means something besides a literal 144,000 and may only apply to the closest followers of Christ, starting with the 12 apostles, possibly limited to those twelve, and the rest of us are the great multitude. ( Just my leanings at this point) Whatever the case the current WT understanding cannot be correct if Brother Russel, the 2nd President was correct in 1913 when this statement was made. That is not even including the unknown number from the first century to our day. These are the types of reasoning we need to get sleeping Christians to see. That is why I am interested in this book.

    Peace be with you…

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  14. Disappointed says:

    That is a very interesting find Spike! Thankyou. It clearly shows the literal number of 144,000 to be ridiculous!

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  15. Jaco v Z says:

    I think there are many valuable things to learn from reading Lingle’s book. Something that kept me from leaving or from even considering it is the state “Christianity” at large is in. What the Watchtower says about Christendom is confirmed by shallow, fabulous and unspiritual Christian superstition in other churches, from Evangelical hysterics to Catholic prudes. What Witnesses will need to learn, which will be the most difficult for them, is that leaving the Watchtower does not mean assuming any of these equally flawed and spiritually debilitating movements. Granted, many do “turn to their vomit” in the real sense of the word, but a great many don’t. Christian freedom can be had while even these other churches do not have it themselves.

    Another great challenge is the Trinity. It is unimaginable to the average Witness to even consider ever believing in such a horror which was also arrived at and enforced by fourth and fifth century “Watchtower-like” oppressive techniques. And, yes, this demonstrably alien invention is believed by some Witnesses who do leave. But there are many non-trinitarian groups, including Baptists, Seventh-day Adventist and Arian Catholic churches which reject the trinity. Christadelphians and particularly Socinians or Biblical unitarians have a very active presence on the Net, actively and superbly upholding the biblical understanding of God and Christ. This is such a surprise to weak Witnesses and they can continue to worship the biblical YHWH and honor his human son without ever falling away into worshiping a quasi-polytheistic trinity.

    This is good news and has helped many a witness gain freedom while still opholding irrefutable biblical truth.

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  16. Willie says:

    Yes, Scooby, you were right on when you said, “I think Sister Willie understands,- ie that if the FDS was One Person” and applied soley within the context of Russell himself. then the “evil slave” would also be considered to be One Person. And as we all know rutherford was a hard task master etc etc. I think this is her point, as she questions the application of the FDS to a wider Group.” For anyone to say that “the faithful and wise servant” was one person and “the evil servant” was a group of persons–which, by the way, the Scriptures DO NOT SAY–would be like comparing a pear to a bunch of grapes don’t you think?

    Actually, Luke 12:37 DOES give you a GROUP example for it says, “Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching, verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat and will come forth and serve them.” This reminds us of another scripture, “Behold, I stand at the door and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me” (Rev. 3:20). Some students of the Bible put this at the beginning of the Gospel Age, but since it is located in Scripture at the end of the message to the church of Laodicea–the time in which we are now living–I understand this to be a special feeding at the very end of the Gospel Age for those who are earnestly watching and listening for the Lord’s voice (Rev. 3:22) NOW. Perhaps this special serving from the Lord himself is the message, the seventh plague (Rev. 16:1,17,19), which will bring down Bablylon/Christendom. Elijah, who represents the feet members of the body of Christ, has to give the smiting message when he crosses the Jordan–which means “judged down”–so the Elijah class members DO HAVE TO KNOW what the message is, don’t they?
    Respectfully,
    Sister Willie

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  17. Willie says:

    Dear Spike, You said, “You can see by the numbers at that time that a literal 144,000 would have been filled because they all believed they were anointed.” I have a copy of the Question Book that you quoted from and I remind you that it was talking about attendance at meetings by “Any person of good deportment”–NOT professing Christians. It really would seem incongruous to most folks if so many could be called “Christian” and yet only have a Bride class of 144,000 in the end, so we have to reason on these things.
    The high calling is for the Bride of Christ which is an elite group like the Navy Seals compared to the Navy in general. The ratio is 1 to 7000 in the example of Elijah and the 7000 prophets who had not bowed the knee to Baal in I Kings 19:18.
    Probably way more than half of professing Christians are actually tares and it is another sad fact that we have several examples in the Old Testament that half–yes, 50%–of the actual spirit-begotten Christians will go into Second Death for failure to make their calling and election sure. Since the Aaronic priesthood represented the highest rank, equivalent to the Body of Christ, and the Levites, who served in the tabernacle and temples as assistants, were equivalent to the Great Company, we can use the example of Aaron and his four sons to observe that two of them (50%) were killed by God (Lev. 10:1,2)–a picture of Second Death. Consequently Eleazar became the next high priest in Aaron’s place and the other remaining son, Ithamar, was a picture of the Great Company. This is also shown by their names, but I won’t go into that.

    Using Pastor Russell’s numbers above we can SPECUTATE the following–just for fun, though the results are NOT FUNNY: If there were 250,000 in attendance when the question was asked in 1913 (and remember: no records were kept; there were no membership rolls; this was merely a ESTIMATE of ATTENDANCE) then for the sake of round numbers let us say that 252,000 were in attendence by 1914. We can surmise that at least 50% OF THOSE IN ATTENDANCE were tares halving the number to 126,000. After the grave disappointment of 1914 the number who HAD claimed to be consecrated, but who were, in actuality, consecrated to a date left and these–along with others who failed to live up to their consecration vows by going into gross moral sins, false doctrines, and/or being unfruitful–equaled another 50% who went into Second Death when they died leaving 63,000 TRUE virgins running for the high calling. Since the ratio for the Bride Class is 1 to 7000, then 9,000 of those remaining would be “wise virgins” and would qualify for the elite 144,000 Bride Class; 54,000 would be “foolish virgins” who would make it to heaven in the…

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  18. Matt says:

    Hmmm That looks like a good read JJ! I’ll have to add it to my growing list of recommended reading. :-)
    Thanks for the synopsis!

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  19. DanielB says:

    I really loved the spirit of brotherhood that I have read in C.T. Russels writings . I know from them that Christ had moved his hand , though as you and I realize now , some of what he wrote was his own speculation . He was a vibrant man who helped the world to know what Christianity was really about . He took his “nest-egg” wealth and dedicated it , and he shared his Kingdom hope , and he was eager in anticipation for that kingdom . In these ways he was an inspiration , though his immagination was not a sure guide . Since the Apostles died off , there has not been a man , or a body of men , to infallibly pick up where Jesus left off , recorded in any writings , which / or in whom we could count on with complete confidence .

    I know , as you probably know , that it is the well-preserved words of the Word , through Yeshua (Jesus) that give divine direction for any who thirst for Truth . So THIS is “a really good read” , the carefully-preserved Word of God .

    I don’t always understand how we get so far off-track on a subject , as in this thread about “Approaching Jehovah’s Witnesses In Love” . But , it seems that simply using God’s Word is the best way to do it , that is , to help those folks ,in Love .

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    • spike says:

      Why do we get of topic? 2 Corinthians 5:13 of course! We are all a little ” out of our minds “!!! You are right about C.T. Russel, I feel bad for making jokes about him, he did a lot of good work getting people to focus on God. He made his mistakes like all of us will, hopefully they were all just a product of human failings and not intentional deception. I have not read the book yet, but I am interested in the 60,000 Christians mentioned earlier. Is that a contemporary Historians estimate? Did I miss something in the book of Acts?

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  20. v says:

    Brother spike!
    That is a wonderful find. “That really clears that up then.”
    I see in 2011 the numbers of the anointed keep rising in the J/ws.
    If only they new the real truth..
    sister Ruth.

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  21. Willie says:

    Dear Spike, I have a copy of the Question Book that you quoted from and remember that it was talking about attendance at meetings by “Any person of good deportment”–NOT professing Christians. You said, “You can see by the numbers at that time that a literal 144,000 would have been filled because they all believed they were anointed.” It really would seem incongruous to most folks if so many could be called Christians and yet only have a Bride class of 144,000 in the end, so we have to reason on these things.
    The high calling is for the Bride of Christ which is an elite group like the Navy Seals compared to the Navy in general. The ratio is 1 to 7000 in the example of Elijah and the 7000 prophets who had not bowed the knee to Baal in I Kings 19:18.
    Probably way more than half of professing Christians are actually tares and it is another sad fact that we have several examples in the Old Testament that half–yes, 50%–of the actual spirit-begotten Christians will go into Second Death for failure to live up to their consdcration vows. Since the Aaronic priesthood represented the highest rank, equivalent to the Body of Christ, and the Levites, who served in the tabernacle and temples as assistants, were equivalent to the Great Company, we can use the example of Aaron and his four sons to observe that two of them (50%) were killed by God (Lev. 10:1,2)–a picture of Second Death. Consequently Eleazar became the next high priest in Aaron’s place and the other remaining son, Ithamar, was a picture of the Great Company. This is also shown by their names, but I won’t go into that.
    Using Pastor Russell’s numbers above we can SPECUTATE the following–just for fun, though the results are NOT FUNNY: If there were 250,000 in attendance when the question was asked in 1913 (and remember no records were kept; there were no membership rolls; this was merely a ESTIMATE of ATTENDANCE) then for the sake of round numbers let us say that 252,000 were in attendence by 1914. We can surmise that at least 50% OF THOSE IN ATTENDANCE were tares halving the number to 126,000. After the grave disappointment of 1914 the number who HAD claimed to be consecrated, but who were, in actuality, consecrated to a date left and these along with others who failed to live up to their consecration vows by going into gross moral sins, false doctrines, and/or being unfruitful equaled another 50% who went into Second Death when they died leaving 63,000 TRUE virgins running for the high calling. Since the ratio for the Bride Class is 1 to 7000, then 9,000 of those remaining would be “wise virgins” and would qualify for the elite 144,000 Bride Class; 54,000 would be “foolish virgins” who would make it to heaven in the Great Company…

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  22. Willie says:

    Dear Spike, I sent this reply yesterday, but I never did see it posted so I sent it again today. Then I noticed that it was incomplete, as it must have been too long–by the new UNKNOWN standards–therefore I am sending the last paragraph again. I have added a few inserts for clarification. Please keep in mind that this was MERELY AN EXTRAPOLATION BASED ON THE BIBLICAL FORMULA in I Ki. 19:18 to assist us in reasoning together on the Scriptures. Below is the last paragraph:

    Using Pastor Russell’s numbers above [from the book, “What Pastor Russell Said,” page 347–mislabeled “Membership Roles”] we can SPECUTATE the following–just for fun, though the results are NOT FUNNY: If there were 250,000 in attendance when the question was asked in 1913 (and remember no records were kept; there were no membership rolls; this was merely a ESTIMATE of ATTENDANCE) then for the sake of round numbers let us say that 252,000 were in attendence by 1914. We can surmise that at least 50% OF THOSE IN ATTENDANCE were tares halving the number to 126,000. After the grave disappointment of 1914 the number who HAD claimed to be consecrated, but who were, in actuality, consecrated to a date left and these along with others who failed to live up to their consecration vows by going into gross moral sins, false doctrines, and/or being unfruitful [Matt.25:28-30; Luke 19:24-27] equaled another 50% who went into Second Death when they died leaving 63,000 TRUE virgins running for the high calling. Since the ratio for the Bride Class is 7000 to 1 [I Kings 19:18], then 9,000 of those remaining would be “wise virgins” [Matt. 25:1-13] and would qualify for the elite 144,000 Bride Class; 54,000 would be “foolish virgins” who would make it to heaven in the Great Company class as servants “before the throne of God” (Rev. 7:15). Numbers like that–based on Scriptural principles–seem reasonable, in my opinion.

    Respectfully,
    Sister Willie

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    • spike says:

      Very interesting! So Those were ” interested ones” so to speak in Russel’s day? I guess if they were not baptized, just attending, then that changes many things. Thanks for the information and correction. I don’t want to be overzealous and inaccurate! In fact after posting that information I was studying at the 2001 Translation site. There are some very deep subjects there, including the 144,000.

      EVERYONE: MY BAD :(

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  23. DanielB says:

    Sister Willie , if the scenerio is that “Since the ratio for the Bride Class is 7000 to 1 [I Kings 19:18]” , as you mention , then rather than “9,000 of those remaining would be “wise virgins” [Matt. 25:1-13] and would qualify for the elite 144,000 Bride Class;” , wouldn’t it be that 9 (instead of 9,000) of those remaining would qualify as wise virgins ? (9×7000 = 63,000)

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  24. Regarding how many Christians there were from Jesus time to date that were wothy of the upward call, please consider the following information from JW Facts.

    So how many true Christians were there to receive the heavenly calling in the 1835 years between 100 A.D and 1935 A.D.? The Watchtower provides figures that can be used to determine this figure.

    The Watchtower would have us believe that in the first century, whilst some of the apostles were still alive, there were tens of thousands of Christians worthy to be of the heavenly calling. 40,000 are said to have been martyred in the year 95 A.D. alone.

    “Brief respite followed the death of Nero, but by the latter years of the first century the second great persecution, under Emperor Domitian, flared up. It is said that in the year 95 alone some 40,000 suffered martyrdom. Also, it was in this period that John, last living of the twelve apostles, was exiled to the isle of Patmos, from where he recorded the inspired Bible book of Revelation about A.D. 96.” Watchtower 1951 Sep 1 p.516

    Again from 1878 to 1935, tens of thousands attained the equally high standards that were required to receive the calling. We find that over 52,000 Jehovah’s Witnesses claimed the heavenly calling by taking the emblems in 1935.

    “Year …… Att. …… Part.
    1935 …… 63,146 … 52,465″
    Jehovah’s Witnesses – Proclaimers of God’s Kingdom p.717

    To be conservative, from the figures above we can estimate that by the end of the first century there were at least 65,000 Christians and in 1935 there were 52,000 Anointed Watchtower followers. Therefore we have:
    •144,000
    •less 65,000
    •less 52,000
    •equals 27,000 true Christians called during the 1835 years between 100 A.D. and 1935

    That would mean that during this period God could only find an additional 15 true Christians per year, throughout the entire world.

    The word conservative is used because there have been many more than 52,000 Watchtower partakers. To the 52,000 actively partaking in 1935 there needs to be added the many Watchtower followers that had died prior to 1935 and the 10,000 now partaking.

    The word conservative is also used as history shows that there were likely more than 65,000 Christians in the first century. By the end of the second century there were an estimated 3,000,000 Christians of which over one millions Christians had been martyred.

    “It has been calculated that by the end of the second century 60,000 copies of the major part of the Christian Greek Scriptures could have been in circulation, even if only one in every fifty of those professing Christianity possessed a copy.” Watchtower 1963 April 15 p.249

    Continued next post…

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  25. “Diocletian assumed the crown A.D. 284. At first he seemed friendly to the Christians, but in the year 303 he gave in to persuasion and opened the tenth persecution, probably the most ferocious of all. Suffocation by smoke, forcible drinking of melted lead, mass drownings and burnings, breaking on the rack of men and women alike ran the empire with blood. In a single month 17,000 were slain. In the province of Egypt alone, 144,000 such professed Christians died by violence in the course of this persecution, in addition to another 700,000 who died as a result of fatigues encountered in banishment or under enforced public works.” Watchtower 1951 September 1 p.518

    These men, women and children offered their lives for God and it is illogical to claim these early Christian martyrs were not worthy to be counted as true Christians and hence denied the heavenly calling. They are shown great disrespect by being branded as unworthy and apostate simply because it does not fit the Watchtower theory that only 144,000 go to heaven.

    The entire article can be found at;
    http://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/144000.php

    Dennis

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  26. v says:

    Ruths asks broth Denis
    Im not try to be rude or pushing a false gospel here. I also do not want to hurt you. BUT! Can you please please explain to me how we are all going to heaven when we die?

    Is it a lie! or a misrepresentation when Jesus said the meek will inherit the earth?
    Is Isaiah a lying prophet when he said we will build house and no one will take them from us?
    That the lamb will lie with a lion. That a mere child will die 100 years of age.
    That the new Jerusalem will come down from heaven and the nations will stream before her.
    Pray for the Kingdom to come? Is that all a lie?

    I know the watchtower is sooo false. But l know the devil let every religion have a bit of truth.
    Please bro Denis tell me how you and others really believe that Jesus is lying about the meek inheriting the earth.

    The scripture in Ephesians 2:5-6 Even when we were dead in sins ( Until we accepted our lords sac rife) THE NOW! made as alive with christ and seated us in heavily places in Christ Jesus.

    We know brother Denis we have such relationship as we sit with our Lord in spirit with him to day.
    Christ NOW dwells in our hearts. His spirit lives in us. Ephesians 3:16 We do not have to die and go to heaven. We have the joy of the heavens right in our hearts right this minute if we are true believers.
    His spirit indeed tells our spirit we are indeed the children of God. Roman8:16 Romans:8:9
    Some people think we only get glorified when going to heaven. But the scriptures say other wise.
    Roman 8 : 28-30 The ones called according to his purpose are know justified and glorified.
    not when we die. Right now, as we proclaim the King and his Kingdom.

    We must be delivered from the bondage of corruption. We must speak truth. Roams 8-21
    Sis ruth

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    • “Ruths asks broth Denis
      Im not try to be rude or pushing a false gospel here. I also do not want to hurt you. BUT! Can you please please explain to me how we are all going to heaven when we die?”

      Sister Ruth,

      Thanks not the point I was trying to make in my comment. I do not believe that nor did I say it. I simply meant to provide additional points of reason to support a belief that both myself and many others have, namely, that 144,000 is not a literal number. There appears to be many, many more Christians than 144,000 that have lived up to their calling to be part of the body of Christ, the heavenly call if you will, since the death and ressurrection of our Lord. If you reread the first sentence of my comment I believe you will see that. Everything after that first sentence was taken from an article on JW Facts which I credited the quote to at the bottom of my comment #24. This being said however, I do not believe there is currently a CALL to gather “Other Sheep” from among mankind who will survive Armageddon and live on Earth forever. This thought is a JF Rutherford perversion of Jn. 10:16. So during this Gospel Age I believe there is only one call, the upward call.

      Ephesians 4:4–6 (ESV)
      4 There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call— 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

      Before I get in trouble again, let me make it clear that I am not saying that there will not be survivers of the great tribulation on Earth. I am not saying that there will not be those ressurected to Earthly life in the millenium. This is all part of the restoration of all things and the ones your Old Testament quotes refer to. These ones just aren’t being called to an Earthly hope.

      More to follow,

      Christian Love,
      Dennis

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    • Sister Ruth said, “Is it a lie! or a misrepresentation when Jesus said the meek will inherit the earth?”

      We’ve already discussed that I too think there will be those who dwell on the Earth in the millenium so this question isn’t really relevent. I would however like to point out an additional way of looking at it.

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    • Sister Ruth said, “Is it a lie! or a misrepresentation when Jesus said the meek will inherit the earth?”

      We’ve already discussed that I too think there will be those who dwell on the Earth in the millenium so this question isn’t really relevent. I would however like to point out an additional way of looking at this scripture.

      1. Does this scripture refer to those who survive the Great Tribulation and those unjust ones that will be ressurrected in the millenium (that we’ve talked about previously). Acts 24:15 These ones meekly and humbly accepting instruction from our Lord and learning righteousness at that time. Isa. 26:9

      Maybe

      or

      2. Could this apply to those in Jesus audience that as part of being called to the Body of Christ would meekly and humbly submit to a lifetime of consecrated service to the Lord. The ones who would pick up their torture stake and follow the Lord where ever he goes? These were after all the ones Jesus was here to gather, Spiritual Israel. Well how could they inherit the Earth you may ask, their domain is heavenly.

      Revelation 21:2–3 (ESV)
      2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God.

      Who is the holy city, new Jerusalem? The Church, the Bride of Christ. Rev. 3:12 Where are they coming from, “down out of heaven from God”. Where are they going to, Earth, “the dwelling place of God is with man”. What will they do when they get there?

      Rev. 5:10 (ESV) 10 “and you have made them a kingdom and priests to our God, and they shall reign on the earth.”

      Could the Earth be these meek one’s inheritance spoken of by Jesus in Matt. 5:5.

      Maybe

      Just some food for thought.

      BTW Sister Ruth, this comment, “Please bro Denis tell me how you and others really believe that Jesus is lying about the meek inheriting the earth.” sort of chapped my hide. Why would you say something like that even if I did have a misunderstanding of our Fathers plans for the Earth? Would this be a loving way to adjust your brothers thinking if he where in error? I think not.

      Dennis

      PS: My second question has relevent points for Brother Amos’ comment below as well and can be considered a very quick reply (I’ll have to read the article he refered to when I get time).

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    • Finally Sister Ruth I’ll close with this. You listed the following scriptures in the latter part of your reply to my comment.

      Ephesians 2:5-6, Ephesians 3:16, Romans 8:16, Romans 8:9,
      Romans 8:28-30, Romans 8:21

      I am not sure really what the point you where trying to make was with these scriptures but my impression is that you are trying to apply these scriptures to those who are spirit anointed and called to a purpose and to those whom you think have an Earthly hope now. I could be wrong in this assessment but just the same I will make my belief clear in this regard. These scriptures do not apply to anyone other than the Bride of Christ. They do not apply to the world of mankind that may profess an Earthly hope. If you and Brother Amos don’t feel the same in this regard then we’ll just have to agree to disagree. I’ll still love you both just the same.

      This series of replies was offered in Christian love by your brother in Christ,

      Dennis

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  27. Amos says:

    Brother Dennis,

    I am of a similar view to sister Ruth, concerning the points she has raised regarding; “going to heaven.”

    My belief if that once we have accepted Christ & obey His commandments & have “received the Spirit,” that from then on (as sister Ruth has said) “we ARE seated with Christ in heavenly places.”

    I think that where most misunderstanding comes from is what is called, “The Heavenly Calling.” I believe this is misunderstood te be a “call to go to heaven”, instead of the call “that comes FROM Heaven.”

    I did do a simple article on this in 2010, you may remember it.

    http://www.jwstruggle.com/2010.....-on-earth/

    I have since done much more study on this view & this thought only gets reinforced.

    Amos

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  28. LonelySheep says:

    All, where does speculation of the numbers of so called spirit begotten/anointed Christians fit into understanding the Bible?

    Can we not just stick to facts rather than wild guess work?

    1Ti_1:4 nor to pay attention to false stories and to genealogies, which end up in nothing, but which furnish questions for research rather than a dispensing of anything by God in connection with faith (NWT)

    Tit_3:9 But shun foolish questionings and genealogies and strife and fights over the Law, for they are unprofitable and futile (NWT)

    All this talk of anointed Christians and Spirit-begotten Christians is also not scriptural but rather Watch Tower jargon.

    Fact: The scriptures only speak of Christians.

    Some more facts regarding popular Jehovah Witness terms that have no scriptural meaning, but are a product of writers imagination:

    spirit-begotten – 0 occurrences in NWT
    spirit directed – 0 occurrence in NWT
    Greater Noah – 0 occurrence in NWT
    Spiritual Israel – 0 occurrence in NWT
    anointed Christians – 0 occurrence in NWT
    heavenly class – 0 occurrence in NWT

    So, repetition for emphasis- the scriptures ONLY TALK OF CHRISTIANS. FULL STOP.

    Am I nit-picking when I say that we should not use these terms? No. Consider why:

    When we adopt jargon/terminology that is not used in the Bible WE (not God or his Word) get to define what it means and can change its meaning when we want to. This can cause confusion, even making God’s word invalid. Therefore we should stick to specific words and terms found in the Bible to avoid reading more into what the Scriptures allow.

    Since the Bible does not make a distinction between CLASSES OF CHRISTIANS neither should we. What gives us the right to do so? So what does that mean for us?

    Well I’ll let you think that over for yourselves for the time, but we all might have to make a profound shift in exactly what we believe our destiny as Christians could be.

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    • JJ says:

      Good point Lonely Sheep.

      We might add “the great crowd of other sheep” and “governing body” to the list of phrases that are not in the NWT or any Bible.

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  29. v says:

    Bro Dennis.
    Thank you for telling me what you believe.
    Im Sorry l did not mean to say Jesus is a liar. What I was trying to say he was being lied about. Could he tell lies? No!

    I just realised you still believe in two hopes. One for heaven the other for the earth.

    I also believe the heavily calling is misunderstood and some use this to say we go to heaven.
    Believing also there is only one hope one faith one baptism.
    Suppose we have to agree to disagree then.

    No one has reinforced this idea in my mind. It was just reading the bible after l left the witnesses.
    Well I guess we will all find out one day then.
    But l have to say. I have no heavenly hope yet my father has told me the scriptures in Roman do apply to me also. Impressed on my heart Im a temple of the living god right now. How can that be?
    because Jesus spirit lives in me right now. Ephesians 2:5-6, Ephesians 3:16, Romans 8:16, Romans 8:9, Romans 8:28-30, Romans 8:21

    I did not realise people still believed in two hopes coming from the w/tower.
    Well if I’m wrong l will surely find out. lets wait and see.
    Now I see where your coming from.
    Sis Ruth

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  30. Willie says:

    Dear DanielB, I stand corrected–didn’t major in math–and I used the calculator, too. Must have been that dratted little decimal point. Thank you for pointing it out. It goes to show how the 144,000 really ARE the “cream of the crop”! And all the truly consecrated DO go to heaven–the foolish virgins as the Great multitude in Rev. 7:9-14. Why would Jesus want millions for his Bride? I think the whole concept is perfectly reasonable.
    Respectfully,
    Sister Willie

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    • DanielB says:

      I recall too how that as Solomon looked all throughout his land he only found one “good man” out of a thousand . I think that some estimates of a huge number making it into the Kingdom could possibly be overly stressed , however it would be good to see Billions if possible .

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      • Amos says:

        Good point brother Dan.

        Another point to consider is….at this point, during the Gospel Age, it is only the church that is being “judged & selected.”

        The rest of mankind won’t get their opportunity for salvation until either the millenial age (the age of restitution), or immediately after the end of that age.

        Amos

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  31. v says:

    Judged and selected is in Daniel somewhere I can’t find it? The angles were told not to feel sorry for even a mere child. But start off at the house of God 1st.
    Does that mean then when Jesus said many are chose but only a few selected. Many can sit with us to -day but still not make it through? Could Christendom people be involved in this judging as they say and believe in Christ the saviour also.
    Very interesting for sure.
    Patricia

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  32. v says:

    Daniel Ruth says.
    That was an excellent point. 1 man in a 1000. Plus what you wrote before practically no women!
    “Who can find a good woman?
    I ask the father all the time to make me what he wants me to be.
    Im hoping l can keep learning to listen and follow as my Father wants me to be just that. A GOOD WOMAN.
    I want that more than anything in the world. And l speak for all my sister who truly love our father.
    Here and isolated around the globe. Some trying to bare up under dreadful circumstances waiting for the return of our Lord. Some with families who abuse their human rights.
    Yet all still relying on there heavenly father to get them through each and every day.
    Ruth

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  33. spike says:

    Don’t worry too much everyone. God is greater than our hearts and there is so much we do not know. Imitate Christ to best of your abilities and circumstances. He knows our hearts and what we would have been if not for the oppression of Satan and his followers. He can read hearts and knows what we can be with his help and no evil to influence us. His judgment will be righteous and fair, he knows we are dust and he knows our potential. We can speculate about much, but we KNOW we need to love each other and help one another. We know we have father YHWH, we know Yeshua died for us and we know he will put an end to wickedness. So we really KNOW very little. Love will fill in the missing pieces.

    Spike

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  34. DanielB says:

    Love conquers all .

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  35. Willie says:

    Dear Amos, You said, “The rest of mankind won’t get their opportunity for salvation until either the millennial age (the age of restitution), or immediately after the end of that age.” Since that seems like a contradiction to me, I am wondering why you put it that way.
    It is my understanding that the Millennial Age IS “the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began” (Acts 3:19-21). I understand the Judgment Day and the Millennial Day to be different names for the same time period–one thousand years in length. It is also my understanding that the reign of Christ and the Church takes place during that period of time AFTER the Church is complete. This is the time designated by God for the earth to be under the control of Jesus (Acts 17:30,31) and also “the saints of the most High (Dan. 7:22). The Judgment Day starts with the Church (I Pet. 4:17) and then the rest of the world will gradually be raised to life and be judged/guided by Christ and his Church who live and reign with him during the the rest of the Millennial day (Rev. 20:4,6).
    Just for the record, the Millennial Day is popularly called the Messianic Age, though the word Messianic is not found in the Bible. Similarly it is also called the Kingdom of God as we read in Rev. 11:15 “The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms [or Kingdom] of our Lord [God], and of his Christ.” In Luke 13:28 Jesus said, “Ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves [the nominal leaders of Jewry] thrust out [of this office].” “Because he [God] hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man [Jesus] whom he hath ordained….” (Act 17:31).
    Those of mankind who obey the laws of the New Covenant will reach perfection of body and mind–but not necessarily heart intention–which will be tested in the Little Season (Rev. 20:3). I see this as the time that the earth will be restored to Paradise conditions, seen in vision by Paul (II Cor. 12:4), and promised by Jesus to the thief on the cross (Luke 23:43). The Little Season when Satan is loosed (Rev. 20:3) will be the final test for the billions who have been raised from the dead throughout the Millennial reign of Christ and the Church and who have, so far, obeyed the laws in order to still be alive at the end of the Judgment Day.
    Satan (Eze. 28:18), the fallen angels who failed to repent and obey (I Cor. 6:3), and those of mankind who have been feigning a change of heart–expressed as an innumerable group which is as the sand of the sea[shore]–will all be destroyed with fire from heaven (Rev. 20:9). At this point when the…

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  36. Wille says:

    Directed to Amos (continued from last post): At this point when the remaining inhabitants have reached perfection and been tested, and the earth has been cleansed from all unrighteousness, Christ will turn the Kingdom back over to the Father (I Cor. 15:24-28). This will be at the beginning of the Eighth Day (the 50,000th Year)–Earth’s Grand Jubilee, as indicated by the example in the Jewish Law (Lev. 25:8-13).
    My question to you is: How could they “get their opportunity for salvation … immediately AFTER (my emphasis) the end of that age”? Is it because of Rev. 20:5? That verse has caused much confusion on the subject. Except for the last sentence: “This is the first resurrection,” that verse is considered spurious and is not found in the Sinaitic manuscript.

    Respectfully,
    Sister Willie

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  37. Willie says:

    Dear LonelySheep, That was a thought provoking comment you made. It sent me straight to the Concordance to look up similar terms in the KJV of the Bible, because I don’t have a concordance for my NWT. I enjoyed the research, so I’m sharing it in case anyone is interested. Though not found in the exact words as you pointed out, I found Scriptures that would describe the thought intended by the phrases used in some instances. The following are examples:
    “Spirit-begotten” is described in I Pet. 1:3,4 and I John 5:18.
    “Spiritual Israel”–Luke 22;28-30; Rom. 9:6-8; 11:7,28 where the word “election” was used. In Gal. 6:16 the “Israel of God” would be Spiritual Israel as the context shows.
    “New Creature”–Gal. 6:15,16. (See also James 1:18–“a kind of firstfruits of his creatures”)
    “New Covenant with the House of Israel”–Heb. 8:8-11
    “Adoption”–Rom. 8:15,23; 9:4; Gal. 4:5; Eph. 1:5.
    “Christians” is found once in Rom. 8:15; “Christian” (singular) is found in Acts 26:28 and I Pet. 4:16 and that’s all.

    TWO CLASSES OF CHRISTIANS are found in Revelation chapter 7. In verse 5–“And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand–NOT SPECULATION (See also: Rev. 14:1-4)–of all the tribes of the children of Israel–i.e., spiritual Israel, called “little flock” in Luke 12:32; and in verse 9–(“a great multitude, which no man could number”), so I suppose that it’s useless to try to guess the number of the other spiritual class.

    Respectfully,
    Sister Willie

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  38. willie says:

    Dear Amos, You said on May 13, 2012, “Another point to consider is….at this point, during the Gospel Age, it is only the church that is being “judged & selected.” I agree with that statement because I Pet. 4:17 says that judgment begins at the house of God. This is foremost because the Bride class, the Church, must be complete before the Kingdom can begin. Those at the very end of the Harvest Age are considered to be the feet or heel members (Gen. 3:15) of the Body of Christ and as one elder expressed it–“Christ wouldn’t want a Bride without feet.”

    Then you said, “The rest of mankind won’t get their opportunity for salvation until either the millenial age (the age of restitution), or immediately after the end of that age.” Are you referring to the “little season” of Rev. 20:3 when Satan is loosed from his binding by Jesus described in Rev. 20:1-3 as being “immediately after the end of that age”?

    As you stated, the Millennial Age is the age of restitution (Acts 3:19-21) and it is also the 1000 year Judgment Day which ENDS–in my opinion–WITH the “little season” when Satan is loosed for the last time and the ones who follow him are destroyed when fire comes down from heaven and Satan is thrown into the symbolic “lake of fire” representing eternal death.

    It is my conviction that the “little season” is incorporated within the 1000 year Millennial Day for the reasoning of I Cor. 15:24-28. Then the work of Christ (and his Church) is completed on earth and the Kingdom is turned back over to the Father, Jehovah, as we read in I Cor. 15:24-28. This point in time is equivalent to the fiftieth Sabbath year, called the Jubilee year (Lev. 25:8-13) during the Jewish age when all things are restored to their rightful owner and bondage (actual bondage in some cases, but including also bondage to sin and death under the rule of Satan) is ended forever.

    The end of the Kingdom Age marks the beginning of Earth’s 50,000th year–a Jubilee Year in Paradise restored at last!

    Do you see it another way?

    Respectfully,
    Sister Willie

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    • Amos says:

      Dear sister Willie,

      I do agree with all your reply, except the possibility of the timing of the little season. Please read the follow verses from Revelation regarding this;

      Rev. 20:1-3; “And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.”
      and… 20:7-10; “And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. 10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.”

      Unless I’m wrong, both these passages very clearly state that the release of Satan from the abbys, & these little season are “after the thousand years had ended.”

      BTW, verse 5 states; “But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.”

      I also know that many belive this verse is considered a spurious addition, but when it’s taken in context & in light of the scriptures as a whole, I find it difficult to accept that it is spurious.

      Your brother in the Lord,
      Amos

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  39. Willie says:

    Dear Br. Amos, Ten year ago I would have agreed with you on the Revelation Scriptures, but now that I understand the Judgment Day to be the same as the 1000 year Millennial Day, it doesn’t seem reasonable for there to be other millions or billions to be judged AFTER the Judgment Day is over. So now I would use your very words and say, “when it’s taken in context and in the light of the scriptures as a whole, I find it difficult to accept that it is” NOT “spurious.”
    An explanation of the Greek is found on pages 521 and 522 in “The Keys of Revelation” (which can now be read online) and it explains that the word EXPIRED should be the word EXPIRING. That understanding of the Greek, which I would never have realized on my own, positions the “little season” at the very end of the Millennial (1000 year) Judgment Day which makes infinitely more sense, IMO.

    Respectfully,
    Sister Willie

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  40. Amos says:

    Dear sister Willie,

    Thank’s for your response to my reply. I do have a copy of “The Keys Of Revelation” but before I read the section that you have recommended, I will share the following thoughts with you.

    1) I believe that we can get the correct understanding of Revelation, & indeed the entire Bible, from within it’s own pages without the need of referencing any mans views on certain passages.

    2) By doing a “word study in context,” it also becomes very evident how at times, even the most well meaning writers can sometimes, “get it wrong” when interpreting some words or passages of scripture.

    In this case, the Greek word used for “ended, completed” is Strongs # G5055, “teleo”, which has the following meanings in English;
    (a) I end, finish, (b) I fulfill, accomplish, (c) I pay.

    Also;
    1. to bring to a close, to finish, to end: ἔτη, passive, passed, finished;

    2. to perform, execute, complete, fulfill (so that the thing done corresponds to what has been said, the order, command, etc.), i. e. α. with special reference to the subject-matter, to carry out the contents of a command”:

    3. to pay:

    In none of the above, does it give any thought or possibility to be anything other than “when OR after it is ended.”

    After checking these verses in many bibles & interlinears, they all agree with the above thoughts that it is indeed, “after the thousand years are/have ended.”

    I believe that when we do the “word studies in context”, the bible will explain itself quite clearly. Sometimes however, we may need to do some extra study & research to find the
    “explanetary verses” from within the bible itself.

    Your brother in the Lord,
    Amos

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  41. v says:

    Bro Amos.
    l must commend you the simple way you deliver your responses so we can all understand so clearly.
    Thank you it helps the little sheep to understand.
    That way knowledge does not come across as a to hard basket. Its like a three course meal.
    Not one huge meal that we have no time to digest the food.
    Ruth

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