dogmatismThe definition of dogmatism according to is: unfounded positiveness in matters of opinion; arrogant assertion of opinions as truths.

Many of us have been victims of dogmatism and in turn practiced dogmatism when we were asleep JWs. We all recognize the dogmatism that characterizes Watchtower statements. Occasionally the Society says there is no need to be dogmatic about certain matters, but the fact is the organization is narrow-minded and dictatorial on almost all issues regarding what a “Christian” is expected to believe.

For instance, for years the Watchtower Society has insisted that Jesus died on an upright torture stake and not a cross. But can they or anyone be sure of the shape of the instrument that Jesus died on? For that matter is it that important that the stake did not have a cross beam? Even when I was an asleep JW I often wondered why the Society had to be dogmatic on certain unclear issues.

Notice also past statements that were put forth in dogmatic terms but today everyone, even faithful JWs, recognize as being erroneous:


***w22 3/1 p.73 Who Is Wise***

The indisputable facts, therefore, show that the “time of the end” began in 1799; that the Lord’s second presence began in 1874;


 ***w22 9/1 p.262 European Tour-Part V***

The physical facts show beyond question of a doubt that 1914 ended the gentile times; and as the Lord foretold, the old order is being destroyed by war, famine, pestilence, and revolution.The date  1925 is even more distinctly indicated by the Scriptures because it is fixed by the law God gave to Israel. Viewing the present situation in Europe, one wonders how it will be possible to hold back the explosion much longer ; and that even before 1925 the great crisis will be reached and probably passed.


Statements that were “indisputable facts” and “beyond question of a doubt” in truth were nothing more than speculations. This is just a small taste of the past and present way in which beliefs are presented in a dogmatic manner.

We are no longer enslaved to this organization with it’s narrow-minded dogmatic way of thinking. But although we have left behind the belief of the Society’s infallible authority perhaps we haven’t left completely these thought patterns behind. Have we  simply replaced our old dogmatically held beliefs with different dogmatically held beliefs? It is a hard question to ask oneself. We are thankful for the mirror of God’s word that helps us to work on our humility and pride, enabling us to see ourselves honestly at least to some extent. (See James 1:22-26, HCSB)

We often hear Christians proclaim that this or that doctrine is Biblical truth. While it is true that the Bible is God’s truth, we must realize that we are all interpreters of the bible. I’m sure it doesn’t shock anyone here that people interpret the Bible differently. Some more accurately or even more sincerely than others. There are many disagreements between Christians over what certain scriptures mean, and labels abound as to what to call this or that school of thought. Even if they agree that the Bible is true and is God’s word, their interpretation of what it says may be different on some points.

The Bible as God’s word has authority. The problem arises when one Christian thinks that their interpretation of the Bible has the authority of God’s word backing it. If you put a Christian that believes in the trinity and a non-trinitarian Christian in one room you may get a big disagreement. Yet both will insist that they are merely teaching Biblical truth. Isn’t the same true of any two Biblical interpretations that don’t agree? They both will insist that what they say is what the Bible plainly teaches.

But doesn’t truth exist in these matters? Most assuredly. Either Jesus is Almighty God, or he isn’t. The majority of us here feel that he is God’s Son, not YHWH himself. But none of us can interpret the Bible infallibly, because we ourselves are not infallible- we are sinful humans, and far from perfect. Therefore, can we be 100% sure that an interpretation of a particular Bible passage is the correct one? Will we be so “sure that we are standing” (1 Corinthians 10:12, HCSB) that we will  make that claim on something another disagrees with? We have personal beliefs and opinions, and these are natural. It is also natural to feel deeply that our opinion is the right one.

This would make it an admirable Christian quality then to  show understanding to those who have a different opinion than our own, trying to see their viewpoint and perhaps even be willing to say that we don’t have all the answers, and really mean it. After all it may be we ourselves who are mistaken and not the other person. All of us have experienced that situation at one time or another in our lives! By insisting that our own interpretation is the correct one could be evidence of a prideful heart, or even arrogance in some cases.

When Paul helped the Corinthians become Christians notice the simple message that he brought them:

1 Corinthians 2:2 (NLT) “For I decided to concentrate only on Jesus Christ and his death on the cross.” (See also 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, HCSB)

I imagine that many of the controversies and disagreements among today’s Christians would have been incomprehensible to the Christians of the first century. Were those Corinthians not true Christians because they knew only the basic gospel message? Is not the “truth” the person of Jesus, the Messiah? Jesus said “I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life.”

Does the gospel truth also include the hundreds of other issues which divide some Christians today? Must we interpret correctly the Bible in all these side issues otherwise our eternal life is forfeit? Isn’t that what many of the myriad denominations of Christendom do? They compile and enforce a creed of adherence, that all members must agree to so as to gain admittance into the group.

Did not Jesus say in Matt. 11:28-30 “Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.”

We must realize that all those who accept Jesus as their Master  and are striving to walk in his footsteps are our brothers and sisters. The WT would have us condemn any that disagree with their narrow view of scripture. Do we still harbor that feeling inside ourselves? Is that right? Is that what our Master Christ did when on earth?  Showing love, respect, and consideration for our brother’s beliefs even if we believe he is mistaken trumps Biblical head knowledge. The latter part of 1 Corinthians 8:1, HCSB says “Knowledge inflates with pride, but love builds up.” Did not Priscilla and Aquila “explain the way of God more accurately” to Apollos? (Acts 18:24-26, HCSB) This implies that there was some points he was in error on. Yet he was not written off, discredited, or looked down upon by the others, and in time he came to a  fuller understanding of the Christ. Would it not be ironic if we were to receive a surprise someday and were told by the Master that our brother was actually right and we were the ones in error on some doctrinal point!

If we view our own Biblical interpretations as unadulterated truth and we view other’s interpretations as simply vestiges of Babylon the Great or as satanic lies we may be destined to have a very lonely walk as a Christian. We might not be able to fellowship long with any Christian group because of our dogmatism, and off we will go to try and find another “more righteous” place to lay our head. Isn’t that what some among the Witnesses do when they switch from congregation to congregation, always finding fault or getting caught up in controversy?

And much worse is that we could be disappointing the One who bought us at so great a cost. (1 Corinthians 7:23, ESV) It is good to have conviction about doctrinal issues or prophecy, and to study these with vigor as we have the time and the inclination. However if we condemn others for having different views than our own on these matters we have left conviction behind and may be accused of being dogmatic, just like the Watchtower Organization has become. In debatable matters will our pride prevent us from simply “agreeing to disagree”? Or will  we stubbornly cling to an “I’m right and they are wrong” attitude?

May we strive to take off “the old self” and to put on the new self ever more as we walk through the narrow gate and difficult road that leads to life. (Ephesians 4:22-24, HCSB; Matthew 7:13,14, ESV)

To the best of our ability, as imperfect sinful people, may we leave the old, fleshly, divisive part of our personality behind as we strive to serve God shoulder to shoulder, or “with a single purpose”. (Zephaniah 3:9, HCSB)


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73 Comments on Watchtower Dogmatism: Are We Still Affected?

  1. JohnS says:

    Brother Andrew,
    Thanks for posting again,its been awhile,and I’m glad you are speaking up.Yes,we all should strive for humility.And he who thinks he knows something,doesn’t know it like he should,as Paul said.1 Cor.8:2 Knowledge ,though is for our benefit,and draws us closer to Christ.Look how many scriptures there are that teach us about the importance of holding God in accurate knowledge.
    I have been to many churches over the last 5 years.At the Sunday school,the Bible is usually discussed,in a verse by verse method.There a soul can contribute his concept of what is being said,and people will listen respectfully.
    But out front,in what is called the ‘Sanctuary’,it is a very different matter.There an ex-Witness will usually run into all kinds of crises of conscience,as Hellfire,the teaching that Christ is the Almighty,and even war to the enemies of state may be promoted.So,it comes down to whether you want to sit and soak up that ‘spirit’ there or not.There you will find a real ‘crisis of conscience’.So real,I can’t sit in these places and listen to that,my conscience will not allow that.I could never ‘join’that particular church that teaches falsehood,could you?
    Now there is absolute truth,and there is sin that cannot be forgiven,there is blasphemy,and there is a slip of tongue when you smash your finger with a hammer.There are shades of understanding,and partial knowledge.When you can determine truth for yourself,live it and enjoy a clean conscience.
    Birds of a feather flock together,and Christians who understand it one way,will gravitate to others of like faith.This is natural,and acceptable behavior.Pride is before a crash and a lofty spirit before stumbling,so we must all work on humility and try not to be dogs,barking at what is not dangerous or truth,maybe just shadows .
    Good council you have given,thanks again.


  2. JJ says:

    Thanks for your perspective and your research on this topic Andrew. It’s food for thought.

    Humility and lowliness of mind are qualities that Moses had, along with so many other faithful servants of God.


  3. Anonymous says:

    Andrew….Hi, its “confused”, my log in is not working. Anyways, thank you for the reminders, it really helped me with some internal things on my mind.
    Have a great day brother


  4. greybeard says:

    Thank you brother Andrew,

    I enjoyed this article very much and agree 100% but even if I didn’t, you are still my brother 😉


  5. Jayme says:

    Thanks Andrew,

    This is one of the best articles Ive read in a while! Much food for thought! I was thinking how this could even help those of us who may choose to still attend the Kingdom Hall. The wisdom of this article can make things much easier for us. Even though the WTs enforcement of their dogmatic intolorance may eventually remove us from association with our brothers and sisters, may we have the humility and wisdom to not allow our own dogmatism to seperate us prematurly. Im not talking of serious matters of conscience but rather trifling over minor things….of which there are plenty, lol 😉


  6. DanielB says:

    Brother Jayme , I appreciate the enthusiasm you have here .

    You mention the trifling over so many matters that are ” trifling over minor things…. ”

    The minor things that were gifts in the first century were things like speaking in a foreign language , without having formally learned the language ( speaking in tongues ) , and things like interpreting a foreign tongue without having first educated for that , ( interpreting ) .

    The more important gifts were things such as Knowledge and Prophesy .

    These are the important things to make sure of , that we have them right .

    I enjoy your comments . They make me think .

    Your Brother ,



  7. Anon says:

    Thanx Andrew.

    Some don’t realize that their insistence on dogmatic rigidity can hurt feelings and make them exclusionary. Starting your own religion or website might not be the answer if the motive is unpure.

    Why should we make a claim that someone is “wrong” and we are “right” when we know so little? We are so imperfect and if we think we are something when we are nothing then that’s an even bigger problem.

    I can’t give my name have been lurking here for a long time this site is great has helped me a lot.


  8. Disappointed says:

    Dear bro. Andrew, you are so right! I think religion as a whole is guilty of this. All through the centuries people have been persecuted for having different thoughts, different doctrines. Catholics against Protestants. Protestants against reformers. The WTS is no different. So many man-made doctrines that are forced on others to believe. Just like the Pharisees who enforced their man-made traditions on the people. Each of us individually have to be very careful we don’t do this. So many in the past from the apostles days onwards have spoken twisted things and made others to follow them,they then become the ‘head’ rather than Christ himself. This is how sects started and from that religious organisations. We cannot be dogmatic about our beliefs if they are our own interpretations but must be humble enough to accept we may be wrong and allow our thoughts to be adjusted by scripture alone as the only Truth there is, is to be found in God’s Word.


  9. jacqueline says:

    A few very simple statements are in the Bible to help us.
    “No one knows the day or the hour” It will come as a thief. Keep on the watch. Be a footstep follower of Christ. A careful review of his foots is love, doing good works. Prayer and constantly petitioning Jehovah for his will to be done. Not forgetting he died for the whole world of mankind seeded from Adam. We are all in the same boat as the rest of the world in that regard. Although we have a special opportunity to be among those that helps Jesus bring the many to righteousness in the Millenium reign. That is in my opinion true Judgement Day.
    I am personnally taking a chill pill and just thankful that I got free from the borg before I died. Thanks for the article my brother. In Him who redeeemed us. Jacqueline


  10. DanielB says:

    Words much appreciated Sister Jacqueline .


  11. JohnS says:

    I enjoy listening to all’s comments and agree,we must be humble,as things come up,like something going on the forum about a 20-year discrepancy in records that casts doubt on 607 as the fall of Jerusalem up to 589.Well,now they had a WT study on this?What was the Witnesses reaction to that big confusion? And look at the dogmatic effect of 1975.Or the generation fiasco.
    Apologizing for the sake of peace,and saying,”I just don’t know,” takes on an importance that cannot be dismissed as weakness,but as necessity,and noble.I for one ,am not able to jump up onto the stump on this forum discussion(20 year difference)as I am no expert in these matters.

    What I feel is the true reading on the ‘Truth Thermometer’ is for certain contained in Christ’s words,and the Apostles,and I will stand on those statements for the lion’s share of my faith.
    Good to hear your voice,Jacqueline,hope you are fine.


  12. JohnS says:

    P.S. ….that doesn’t mean I quit researching or reading,and trying to learn the facts.It’s just all new to me,and I have to research it again,and listen to the arguments carefully,then compare it to the Bible,it takes time.


  13. Disappointed says:

    You’re right bro. John. We have to be like the Beroeans and keep searching and make sure of all things. Rather than accepting at face value what we’ve been told by men we need to be diligent in seeing if it’s all backed up by scripture. If it’s not then the ‘alarm bells’ ring. Especially if we are told those dogmas come from God through them and that to question or reject those dogmas mean we are rejecting God! As the apostle Paul often says … ‘Never may that happen!’


  14. JohnS says:

    Brothers and Sisters,
    As we consider issues like this one that has been raised,in the Nov. WT study edition,was 607 the actual date for the destruction of Jerusalem or was 589?,and has it been absolutely proven beyond the shadow of a doubt,etc,…one can start to see a general truth that can be construed.That is,more time,and a closer look is necessary,number one,number two,does it really mean a complete destruction of our entire body of faith?Even if this other researcher could as a matter of certainty prove that this point or the other proves his theory,even then,does it show that 100 years ago,the researchers were attempting to “pull a fast one” over the gullible Bible Students reading the Watchtower,waiting for Christ to come,looking for salvation from fear of death and human misery?Hardly.In all sincerity,even down thru the years of Adventism,Mormonism,Catholicism,even,yes,even the large body of Catholic believers in the world,they are mostly all…….BELIEVERS,and not wicked,and cunning liars bent on collusion and trickery.And so it is with the so called Admimistration,of WT.Some ,who elevated themselves to power in this hierarchy through the last100 years,admittedly abused their power,manipulated the power structure,like modern-day governments crowded out boards of directors,supervising company servants,and intimidated scores of the flock into acquiescence,as docile people have little control ability or desire,and would much rather ‘wait on Jehovah’ to take care of matters in his due time.But does this mean that because prophetic time prophecy calculations are being questioned as to something less than 20 years of 2500 (less than 1%)and something NOT YET PROVED,that we should now say the following?…..
    ” Since it’s proved that Bible prophecys are all wrong,nothing in the Bible can be accepted as truth,and we are all better off turning the light of faith in the Bible,off, shutting the door,locking it behind us,going home to the kids,and go get drunk and try to forget about the whole thing.”
    Because that is what seems to me is the mood trying to set in here.It is the same thing Pilate said to Jesus,is it not?….”What is truth?”In other words,this is called skepticism,”defined as “being inclined to doubt all accepted opinions.” So,that being stated,what some are saying here as a summation of listening and talking here as a postulate of truth,a rule of thumb and a moral,prophetic,and faith guideline is the following;
    “There is no sure way to be 100% sure about anything in the Bible.It is not a reliable guide in the matters specified above,and cannot be relied upon as an easily discerned source of truth about God,his Son,the condition of us after we die,the identity of God and his Son,what the future hope of mankind is or not,and any other of the 1000’s of smaller issues we have to discern as we go about our daily life as Christians.”
    In other words,the general scope of the issue here is that of a pure SKEPTICAL nature,and not one of faith,grounded on facts.
    I went into the argument presented here and against WT conclusions after reading one hour of the opposing arguer’s conclusions.My faith stands intact,because if you read the forum on the subject of ‘Gentile Times’,and read the Bible,you can clearly see the real issue and the answer is being overlooked,simple.Ezra,Jeremiah,and Daniel,let alone the great Ezekiel,(who lived in Babylon,as well as Daniel),ALL had the historical eyewitness testimony in front of them,and could have denied it at any time,but corroborated the words of Jeremiah,that when Cyrus took over rulership of Babylon,in 539BC,70 years of desolation upon Jerusalem had come to its end.These men were unerring in their course,they lived through the turbulent times,in both Babylon and Jerusalem.I think we should put full faith in their historical record over any ‘Commercial transaction’ record deciphering theories of people analyzing the event from halfway around the world,and 2600 years after the fact.Do you think the Son of God,who no doubt had a hand in bringing Cyrus to the very walls of Jerusalem,and put it into his generals’mind to redirect the whole Euphrates river’s waterflow,would not be capable of finding some good men who could get it right to write this ‘stuff down,and put it into a book’,so my people can put proper faith in it,and build a strong faith based on accurate knowledge in the year 2012? As I said,Jerusalem was destroyed 609-607,or thereabout,according to the ACKNOWLEDGED BY ALL VETTED HISTORIANS,70 years back from the accepted date of 539BCE for the fall of Babylon.That is the clear Bible message.Take that to the bank of faith.These men are reading clay tablets,written out about commercial transactions.We have the INSPIRED WORD OF GOD sitting on our desks and nightstands and they should be opened every day,and researched diligently so we can “overturn every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God.”(2 Cor. 10:4,5)
    This is your life we are talking about,everlasting life of you and your kids.Stand up for it! Don’t accept skepticism in any form,NO! The Bible is absolutely the truth.You can count on it.Jesus Christ is the Son of God,not God,believe it.It came out of his own mouth.Many,many times.There is no literal lake of fire tormenting souls of unbelievers,this is a demonic lie.Bank on that with your faith.
    If others want to believe this kind of wishy -washy reasoning,which is as the definition shows ,is a person inclined to DOUBT all accepted opinions,yes,these persons DOUBT THE BIBLE,GOD’S SONS TEACHINGS,and all the rest of it.They are encouraging you to do the same.Are you ready to take that plunge?
    Your faith may drown with theirs. John,you are just a clashing symbol,clanging and screaming in our ears with a cutting wit,some say.Yes!….I am fighting for your faith.Believe it.


    • man oh man says:

      The Word of God is NEVER wrong!!!! Not even by 1 percent. Even 1 percent leads to dogma!!!


      • man oh man says:

        And please remember that even the date 539 is a historical date. It is not in the Bible. How can we accept 539 from history and then reject 587-589 from history?

        If 1914 teaching were true then the Bible would state an actual date. Simply put this is a FALSE Prophecy! To say that discredits the Bible in no way shape or form!!!!! Just because the seventy years were fulfilled this does NOT mean 1914 is true. That would be a logical fallacy.

        Case in point the Bible pointed to a time when the messiah would appear. Did that time period have to be adjusted over and over until it seemed to come true? No.

        Does it matter what we believe on this subject? Probably not, but why would we believe a prophet that has time and again proven to be false? Instead of following false anointed ones let us follow the true one Jesus Christ.


        • Thanks man oh man. Good comment and I agree on 99% of your points! Especially your comment about accepting the historical 539 date but rejecting the 587 a 586 historical date. Well said.



  15. JohnS says:

    I want to thankyou,Brother Andrew,for letting me jump up on the stump like a hell-fire preacher out of the 50’s here at times.Overly-dramatic,certainly,and overly-critical at other times,as you call it,dogmatic,judgemental,even of DOCTRINE,not people.
    I feel for the people,I have attended many churches,and always feel the people’s faith,and love for Jesus and what he has done,and it is true,yes,you have echoed,and so have others,many times,Jesus’ and Paul’s words;Love is the greatest goal,knowledge comes in second.I applaud you for that,as I do the others.Thankyou,for it shows what is in your heart,as well as you have related,you yourself are reluctant to leave behind your loved ones by not attending meetings,and I believe you have faded recently,so may the Lord Yehowah give you the spirit to endure,and keep writing about love,it is your theme song ,brother,….keep singing it,as it is very enriching and balances out our egos and differences.Thanks again for coming back to the screen. And thank you all for puttng up with my fears and overt attempts to ‘indoctrinate’ you.


  16. andrew says:

    Thank you Br. John.
    I too have strong conviction about certain biblical interpretations I have. There is nothing wrong with explaining what we have found in our personal bible study perhaps someone will see the value of some point we have brought out. Disagreements are unavoidable but shouldn’t be a problem unless we condemn those who disagree with our interpretations. Disagreeing without being disagreeable is very important to make sure the atmosphere here in the blog or in the forum is encouraging and upbuilding to all.


  17. Anonymous says:

    After reading all the comments again (which are great),
    What IS important that we believe? What is it that makes a difference to salvation? This is a question I keep coming right back to. I’m interested in your thoughts.


    • andrew says:

      Hi anonymous,
      I would start with the Sermon on the Mount. Those commandments are the basics of living under the new covenant.


    • JJ says:


      What is important IMO is recognizing the supreme role of our savior Christ. He is our mediator, our model, and shed his blood for us.

      By allowing us to come to the Father through him, Jesus has bought us and showed us the way. John chapter 3 may be the most crucial chapter in the whole Bible. There he told Nicodemus that he had to be born of the Spirit if he wanted to gain entrance into the Kingdom of God. This is a beginning though, not the end.

      But what a wonderful beginning it is!


    • Anairam says:

      The only way to be saved, is by believing that Jesus died for our sins and rose from the dead. Believe, and you are saved! It is that siplme When you believe in Jesus, then you are given the Holy Spirit. You can pray and ask Jesus for more filling of the Holy Spirit if you like, but it is believing that Jesus died for your sins and believing that Jesus rose from the dead, that saves you Salvation is a FREE GIFT that happens in a split second when you believe in Jesus alone to save you! It is impossible to lose or leave salvation (John 6:39-40, 1 John 5:13). The truth about Jesus is that the only way to be saved and to get into heaven and avoid being sent to eternal hell, is by believing in faith alone that Jesus, who is God, died for our sins on the cross as FULL PAYMENT for all our sins, and then Jesus rose from the dead (1 Corinthians 15:1-4). Believe this and you will be in heaven, no matter what! Please pray now: Jesus, please forgive me of my sins. I believe that You died on the cross for my sins and You rose from the dead. Thank You for eternal life! You will be in heaven with Him forever when you die.


      • JJ says:


        Welcome to JWS! I appreciate your sentiments and your confession that Jesus died for our sins and that is what saves us. All here agree that his shed blood washes away our sins. It is a simple and beautiful truth.

        I am going to assume you are not a Witness or a former based on your reference to Jesus being God. Many of us here would feel that such a statement is not supported by scripture and that the trinity doctrine as established by the Nicene Creed is not a Bible teaching, but a man-made doctrine formulated around 325 A.D. by a collection of men.

        Even so, again you make great testimony to the fact that through Jesus only can we be saved. He may have died on a cross, or it may have simply been the stauros, an upright stake, but we cannot say with certainty. Either way, Paul preached the simple message to the Corinthians, that of “Christ Crucified” and we appreciate that point very much. Thanks again for the comment.

        In Christ,


  18. JohnS says:

    Anonymous,I’m sure you have your opinion on it,and all do.I,personally believe the Bible is an accurate Book of prophesy,as it claims.(2 Pet.1:20,21) And the Bible,unlike ANY other existing,is FULL of detailed prophesies.Just because some religions don’t interpret them correctly,doesn’t mean the Bible is false,or we should stop deciphering their meaning,or are not important.It takes faith,and research,and good reasoning to make an accurate hypothesis toward understanding the meaning of Bible prophecy.After you reach some good ideas,you wait and see.What else can be done?In time,it comes true or not,then live with the consequences.The problem with Russell and the history of Adventism,which is what Russell and JW’s are/were, is too dogmatic,too specific,and too proud to apologize when necessary,and admit the error.This is why these Witnesses are now dead set against examining prophecies,thus their reluctance,shall we say to believe things that are very important to believe at this time.There has been a great disservice to God’s prophetic word through those before-mentioned ‘FDSlaves’.I’m sorry their faith has been damaged,and I hope they will work to repair it.


  19. JohnS says:

    Another main point is this,Jesus didn’t mention any time prophesies,only the ‘appointed times of the nations’ allusion,so we don’t need to exclusively rely on the Gentile Times prophesy.It was his art to HIDE the truth with parables ,illustrations and experiences.He foretold the time of the end by situations and great events,and a mindset that would characterise the generation he was pointing ahead to.We would have to ‘keep on the watch’ to discern which generation he meant.Some will say, “things have always been the same,and this is no different”,and even this is part of the character foretold of that ‘generation’ or epoch,or age,not necessarily meaning exactly one man’ lifetime evidently.
    Because Jesus taught this alternate way,he has shielded the truth from skeptics,but those with faith get it,so if we can’t get the general idea from Revelation,or Daniel,both prophetic books detailing time prophecies,we can get the season in his other many teachings,and I don’t mean just Matt.24:1-14.The Apostles Paul,Peter, and John all help to identify the time of the end.
    Some will say “This idea of the time of the end is NOT IMPORTANT-LISTEN TO ME!” These are anti-Christs themselves,as they are teaching the exact opposite of every thing Christ and his Apostles taught.Turning our minds in the direction of these false prophets could mean missing out entirely on the blessings of the Kingdom,sorry,it’s that serious.2 Pet.3:3,4….2 Tim.3:1-8…..Matt.24:43-51


  20. Ruth says:

    Dear brothers.
    Yes l agree we are so close to the return of out Lord and things are at boiling point on planet earth. I don’t believe any one l know suggests the end times are not important.

    We await them to the glory of our Father to deliver us with happiness and expectation Of the king reigning for the 1000 years to bring about a new heavens and new earth where righteousness will dwell.
    We are telling as many as we can in our own home towns. Doing as the father leads us.

    Many new sheep leaving false religions cannot cope with heavy material.
    Some who have advanced can. So their fore I see the father feeding his sheep at the proper time and the proper amount of food so they will not chock on the word.

    Also l can see that the father wants us to get the inner man or woman ready not in a jerk like out of control action. But in a calm fashion knowing everyone and very thing is in Gods hands.

    He also needs us to listen to the psalms @ proverbs. Books like these are just as important as any other. Yeshuas words in the gospels with excitement were used referring to these books and people in them.
    .Our Lord told us to remain calm. Keeping a healthy perspective on things that are happening even right now. The sheep trust God first before their own understanding.

    Yes it is serious. Your right.
    But lets not put more pressure on new families as they are already trying to tackle there new lives. Losing husbands families because of cult like actions that have ruined most of there lives.

    Life is like a knotted fishing tackle. Until we find the patience to slowly unravel that line we will lose our grip. To much to soon will frustrate us. Throw the thing in the water out of sheer desperation and we will walk away. I hope I’m never guilty of frightening his sheep.

    That is how new ones will feel. That is why we cannot make them fret if they do not see what we see straight away. Is the Creators hand short that he cannot see or hear there cries! Of cause not.

    Remembering to take one day at a time! But getting ready in our hearts and minds. ( cleaning out the cob webs) Straightening our ties so to speak. After all what Shepherd never came to the recur of his little sheep. Oh yes! Only the hired hand.

    sister Ruth.



    • Charles says:

      Dear sister Ruth. I submit if you truly want to help people, you cease and desist ruining
      Their lives with false religion. The simple fact is the organization is a cult. How are you, sister Ruth
      A cultist? Well, when in field service, when a householder opens a door, do you state,” hi I’m
      Sister Ruth, I pray everyday that you and your family and everyone you know are killed by the
      Angry god of the Old Testament. You see, we are fundamentalists but not necessarily Christians. Oh and
      If you join us , give up your family,friends and ambitions. And if you happen to cut yourself really bad,
      You should bleed to death.” Is that what you say? Nope. You know what, if god wants to make a point
      He can do it himself, and doesn’t need the help of the wbts.


  21. JohnS says:

    Words of wisdom,thankyou.


  22. JJ says:

    Sister Ruth

    Such lovely words- thank you for your maturity and your insight.

    It’s such a struggle to even survive when you are in “the rat race” and perhaps in your 30s, 40s, or even 50s trying to pay the bills, raise children and then to have the crisis of conscience that we have had.

    Realizing that the WT Org is a false prophet and that some of the the things we had formerly believed are a sham is so difficult. Getting back to the basics and humbly preaching “Christ Impaled” is something that has helped me personally. Just reading and pondering, underlinging and studying a new Bible, starting at John’s writings, then on to Pauls letters.

    And Paul had stress from within and without- he wanted to keep to the simple gospel as Jesus did but there were many opposers.


  23. Ruth says:

    I can see so much more now than l ever did before.
    Its hard enough coming from a false religion like the one our Lord brought us out of.
    Let alone trying to digest every ones interpretations. But there is a simple solution to this.

    There can only be one head of the scattered sheep following to-day! After all we are not in religion any more. That means we are relying on him alone. He is doing the teaching.
    We now know who that is “Yeshua the son of the most hight God.”
    It is him we look to now to for everything. Can you imagine if you had the chance this very day to look deep in his eyes what you would see? Well you can. because he now lives in your hearts.

    We are learning how take his hand when we walk through dark times and disappointments.
    Yes! Not asking him to remove the bad times or disappointments being the only way we can achieve maturity! As much is it is so hard, we must endure. When we put our feet in the symbolic fire we will find it was not hot after all. Why? because our master is carrying our load.
    His is in the line of fire for us.

    Every time I seem to make a plan. Its like someone throws a curve ball and takes my plans in a different direction! Romans 8:28 And we know that ALL things work for the good of those who love
    After pondering this scripture we can be assured our directions are controlled for the benefit of our spiritual progress.
    That curve ball can still come back in the direction we planned.
    I suppose that is where our faith should come in to understanding of “Trust” The father tells me everyday in my heart and soul to keep trusting him. Be Patient he says to me.

    I will not hand you a scorpion will l? Yes father I know you won’t. Than trust Ruth Trust me.
    Yes father I will. He actually disciplines me.

    When we can have a real relationship, one on one with the father we now deep in our hearts
    he is steering the ship into safe waters. Just taking us around a dangerous reefs so we do not get hurt. In the end it will be pain sailing. We must believe this will happen

    Imagine a new earth where righteousness will dwell. Looking at our Lord as he comes through the clouds and the archangel announces his arrival. Everyone on planet earth will see this spectacular entry.

    Yes, that will be the time we all lift up our heads and cry! Salvation belongs to our Lord and his father. Come Lord Jesus Come.

    What a wonderful future. makes sit all worth while right now. Wouldn’t you agree JJ

    Sister Ruth


    • Charles says:

      I imagine a world with no religion. Everyone on earth focused on the reality that we live a short life.
      There is no resurrection to heaven, a paradise 1000 year kingdom, no hell, nothing. Life is a
      Beautiful gift which we all must savor and strive to fulfill. You want to help people, go visit the
      Sick, the old and lonely and the poor.
      But forgive me sister, the Catholic Church has helped the sick the poor and the aged 1000 times more
      Than the watchtower. Is there a jw charity beside building Kingdom Halls? Is there even one jw hospital ?
      What you did to the least of my brothers you did to me. The watchtower governing body needs to be
      Disfellowshipped .


      • Rupunzelsawake says:

        Hi Charles! You are new here and obviously don’t realise that Ruth resigned from the WTBTS many years ago. Please read the posts more carefully in future if you choose to remain. You should have seen also that this site is set up for those wanting to maintain or develop faith in God. Yes, life is a gift. It has a Giver. You are not qualified to make statements like “There is no resurrection, no paradise,no kingdom, etc”. How can you prove such statements? You can’t. In case you’re interested, I did write to the GB directly and disfellowshipped them!


  24. Ruth says:

    Jj. Greetings to all the sheep who need love and care.
    May I add also.
    A lot of people are right in there hearts, but there heads are messed up because of years of believing in a religion which they believed to be true. That was the biggest broken heart imaginable.

    There hearts are pure. So therefor our Lord will give them understanding and comprehension as much as they can take. Our Lord makes all decisions regarding their spiritual growth.

    Im finding we can tell them what the LORD has shown as we progress. But we cannot force feed anyone. After all they were his before the world began. They are not going any where as the Lord is the one bringing his sheep back in to the sheep pen where they will be protected.

    Another thing is The church does not need to be full of brilliant people. Simple people mainly fill the Halls of Glory. “We are to be like little children” Sister Ruth


  25. Anonymous says:

    Jj, (hi brother, its “confused”), just wanted to say, that was a great point you made. I really appreciate that simple thought, thank you. :) sometimes we (me), make it so much more difficult than need be.


  26. Disappointed says:

    Sister Ruth, your words are so very wise and understanding.
    Last night I was reading the latest WT article about Jesus and questions about him and on the whole I was agreeing. No he is not God himself, no he is not a baby, yes he was a good man and yes he is our Redeemer. But then it ended and I was expecting to find more and I thought ‘is this it?’ I thought, he is the second most important being in the universe next to his Father and this is all he gets? What about our relationship with him? Of course they talk about our relationship with Jehovah and of course we should have a relationship with our Heavenly Father but what about the Son?! I suddenly realised that THIS is what is wrong with the whole thing. We are no longer being taught by the Son, we no longer worship the Son (although he was worshipped up until 1954 when it all changed along with the NWT)but we don’t need him in our lives right now they say.. all we need is the Watchtower, that along with the ‘faithful and discreet slave’ will fill all our needs. Christ died for us and reconciled us to God but they believe he has no more importance to us than that? That his Kingdom is some government just as worldly governments are, neglecting the fact that his Kingdom is working on us and in us right now! Sister Ruth, I have begun to realise just how important Christ is in our lives, he is The One that his Father is using to accomplish all things. Everything is in His hands! We are as nothing without him, we cannot pay just lip service to him as the WT does.. we need to take him into our hearts!
    Sorry if this is going a little ‘off topic’ but I just felt after sister Ruth’s lovely words I just had to say it!


    • JJ says:

      Well said Sister Disappointed. You and Sister Ruth are two of the many jewels that make up our worldwide group of scattered sheep.

      No matter what country, no matter what nationality or race, Acts 10:34,35 is so wonderful:

      “Then Peter began to speak: “I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism but accepts men from every nation who fear him and do what is right.” (NIV 1984)

      Amen to that! We are Christian- that is the only name we need.


      • Disappointed says:

        Think I missed this JJ! Thankyou dear brother. 😀 And yes, our Christian worldwide brotherhood is vey precious.


        • JJ says:

          Yes it is! And it takes in so many faithful servants of God, which include many JWs, but also those of many other denominations that call upon the Lord out of a pure heart.

          We can’t judge our fellow Christian based on the 1% we really know about them- only the reader of hearts can.


  27. JohnS says:

    Right Sisters,
    Watchtower denies the brotherhood with Christ offer to all, and instead made up the , “other sheep” earthly class as the only ‘offer’ door-to-door. Why would they do this? It all started with C.T. Russell’s literal 144,000 number interpretation of Revelation 14. Once that number was approaching the amount of ‘publishers’ (early 1930’s assemblies and publisher counts were approaching 130,000), a switcharoo had to be made. Now the intimate relationship of the brotherhood of Christ would have to be irradicated,how? Ta-da! “Great Crowd of other shhep” …’class’ was fabricated.(1935) Since then, Christ had to be relegated to the back of the bus, and also the gospel itself had to be clothed anew. This is ‘Christianity’ in a mutilated,and Christ in a divorced, state. “We’re sorry Lord, but WE MUST SAVE FACE,regardless of how you feel about it, besides you are late coming back, so we’re going to do anything we want to the sheep,especially drive out from the flock any newly anointed that have figured it out in spite of our lies”. (with the Spirit’s help , of course).


  28. DanielB says:

    I might add , Brother John , that the number 144,000 pertains to those at the end time , and not necessarily including those who had since fallen asleep in death ; ( -just thinking out of the WTS box ) .

    And yes , they made the Great Crowd and Other Sheep synonymous expressions , though this does not have any Scriptural authority .

    Ah , you have such a good zeal brother !

    Good words . . . . . .


  29. JohnS says:

    Oh, zeal, I’m full of, I just wish I had the knowledge to go with it. Even the 144,000, I can’t rally say why he used that term, maybe they are the end-time anointed,I don’t know. I have felt that possibly there are a ‘set’ number, and this number represents the real final number, which would be huge. I do know for a fact, Jesus never taught us the truth any other way than to be born of the water and spirit, and becoming his brothers as heirs to the heavenly kingdom. AS far as people living on our earth, most certainly,as who will there be on earth to rule? The resurrection? Satan being let out to mislead the nations? etc.
    But the Christians , these are instructed to share in eating Christ’s flesh and drinking his blood(Memorial), and sharing in his resurrection. Christians are clearly taught to become one with Christ, and receive the adoption, transferrence into sonship to the Father. No other gospel is taught. WT does, though.


  30. DanielB says:

    It’s sad . But some will no doubt still come out of false religion and take hold of the skirt of a Jew . – Zechariah 8: 23

    Shalom !


  31. Ruth says:

    Right on bro Daniel!
    When I envision as l read in Rev the New jerusalem coming down from heaven as a bride dorned for her husband.
    Honestly! Who’s names do we see on the foundations? Who’s names are on the gates?
    Not my name and I’m a gentile who has also been grafted on to the root stock.
    I see the Apostles from Jewish stock. I see the 12 tribes mentioned.
    Oh yes They I believe are the 1st fruits. They are special in Yeshua and the Fathers eyes.
    No use kidding ourselves.

    How can the w/tower leave them out of the equation? Its because Satan himself has taken Christ away from true believers. It goes to show us we truly are being taught one on one with the Lord of Lords.
    Yes i know I’m in the book of life. I do believe what Paul said we have such a wonderful relationship with our lord! his spirit also can dwell in our hearts! Its written.
    If its written. Im sure going to believe it.

    Way to go Brother Daniel. Shalom Patricia


  32. DanielB says:

    Let us pray for our dear Jewish Chistian brothers Patty . They are in my opinion the dearest ones who still need to be gathered . THEN , when the number is sealed , FOUR WINDS ERUPT . And let’s help any stragglers .

    May they have a safe journey , our dear Jewish friends in Christ .

    Selah !


  33. Ruth says:

    John S
    You know Ive been thinking a lot about this Heirs to the heavenly Kingdom.
    l asked myself this question. Do I have to go to heaven to be an heir to Gods heavenly Kingdom?
    Do I have to live in great Britain and stay there to be an air to the throne. Well that is what people would automatically presume!

    The answer in my mind is no to both questions.. I would not have to stay in Britain even if i were an heir to the throne.
    So then why would i have to die and go to heaven to be apart of the kingdom when Yeshua taught us to pray for the Kingdom to come on earth.

    He did mention to his followers that the Kingdom at that time was in there midst. How come? Must be Yeshua was in there lives..
    Then would I have to be in heaven because it called the heavenly Kingdom to be an heir? No again
    Definitely not according to how paul describes the situation. ‘Paul said this! Now we can believe what is written here. Or pass over it. I choose to believe what is written. Ephesians 2:4-,6
    God who is rich in mercy when with us he loved us.
    Even when we were dead in our sins!!! Now (present tense.) Has quickened us to gether WITH Christ and HAS (present tense) raised us up to gether and made us sit in heavenly places. In Jesus christ. ( Yeshua)

    The truth is when we have that personal relationship he is offering us “We are invited now”
    By letting the spirit of yeshua in our hearts to be apart of his Kingdom.

    Because we were witnesses. We sometimes feel that the Kingdom should be left out of Gods equation. But are we right? If we think that way we are definitely wrong.

    The Kingdom according to our Lord is the most important thing we should be learning to understand.
    Why! Yeshua himself mentioned it until his death bed. Gave so many parables about the Kingdom. Wheat and weeds. ten vigils. ect ect ect! They do not have mysteries in them. Hidden stories! NO!
    They are plain ways of telling us how to enter the Kingdom. What we should be like as people.
    The simple gospel. for ordinary folks to understand. Not complicated.

    When it literally comes how wonderful will that be? The New Jerusalem adorned as a bride for the lamb of God. All the nations will stream before it. Praise our Father for letting the simple gospel shine right on through.

    “I tried to count all the times Jesus mentioned the Kingdom’
    It seems so large I couldn’t finish counting.

    So now i have answered my own question confirming we are now sitting in heavily paces Symbolically. Then why do we need to die and go there as Christendom is saying we have to do?
    As far as I’m concerned we are now apart of that heavenly Kingdom. To enjoy right now.
    Is our Lord far away then? No close by in our hearts.

    Just a thought Bro JohnS

    Sis Ruth.


  34. JohnS says:

    Sister and Bother,
    We are seated in the heavenly places.We ARE IN God and Christ now, as their Holy Spirit is in us, and we are in them through that spirit. They have made their abode with us. We are now one with them, and we can now be one with the another anointed, through the one spirit.Christ in all for all.John 14and 15
    But this is just a token, a subway token, a ticket, the way to God. We know the way, and when Christ comes, he will float us up there to himself, just like he floated into the sky with an angel on each arm, just as simple as that. People may even Witness the event, as they did the Lord, so all will know. We , the living will be caught away in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, thus we will always be with the Lord. 1 Thess. 4:16, 17

    We have to go to heaven for the formal arrangement, the marriage of the Lamb. We will also be able then to go to the Father, that’s the whole point….the Father. Yes Christ is our Lord, the way, but it’s all about our Father….that does never change. We are the ‘Holy Ones of the Supreme One”,,,,,Yahweh, the Almighty is our Father, not Christ. He is taking us to God.
    There will be new bodies, orientation, training and instruction, and much time to fill our minds with TRUTH, eliminating all the misconceptions we have about everything. We have to know everything exactly right, as we become the counselors for earth, the teachers, administrators,helpers,etc. I’m sure this will take a lot of time. I am confident Father can freeze time for us for however long it will take us to get ready for the whole thing, the administration called the Kingdom , to come back down to earth and start doing the job it was designed for before the founding of the world. Eph. 1:1-10


  35. Ruth says:

    Bro johnS.
    I do not want to be unkind here.
    I know Christendom teaches we die we go to heaven.

    What I am trying to discern is what you are saying about Christ and his coming the 2nd time.
    You say he will not touch Planet earth. He will raise people from earth into the clouds. He will immediately take them to heaven. Where does it say they will go straight to heaven?
    When your in a plane you are in heaven. Heaven does not have length width or height. You also
    say they will stay up there as the Father can freeze time.
    Then there will be a 3rd coming to earth to establish his Kingdom? Because you said the Kingdom will come here ready to rule. after you all have been taught the ropes so to speak. Is that right?

    “Sorry there is only a second coming not a third.”

    Also to prove you go to heaven you cite the scripture that says we will abide in him and be with him for ever. Also the scripture thats says will be lifted up to meet the lord in the air.

    Bro John, you do correct many people so I would like to tell you how l see it. Not correcting you but just using what l believe the spirit in me is saying.

    Have you ever thought about this.
    If you dad was coming home and you had not seen him for a long time. Would you run out the door to meet him? Yes!
    Now would it be wrong for the Lord to actually bring ones to greet him in the air as he comes down for his 1000 year reign on earth. It does not say they go with christ and go back to heaven at that time
    ! It only says they meet him and will abide with him for ever. So! Cant it be right here?
    Why can’t they do this on earth! If they are raise as far as the clouds they can still be human. They still breath. Jesus can perform what he wants. We saw him stop the waves and winds out in the fishing boat.

    Changed in a twinkling of an eye. Does not mean they float to heaven. Couldn’t it mean our old bodies will give way to new bodies! The blind will see agin. the deaf will hear again. Miracles happen in a blink of an eye.
    What I can see. Christendom has rubbed off on people far and wide. But if we let our father help us to see closer than ever before. Perhaps we can see things as they really are. Maybe Im wrong here.
    But I’m sure not going to fall for private interpretations.
    Another lot of questions.
    Why weren’t the ancient worthies through the old testament taught about heaven? Why were they expecting a resurrection back on earth? Why were they Told Yeshua was to be come through the line of Judah and he would sit on davids throne? They were told in exodus that the nation would rule for ever as priests. ( First fruits.) Never told them they had to go to heaven to learn how to do this.

    Actually who could do it better the ancient worthies anyway. They would have a priesthood wrapped up on there little fingers of understanding if some of them were the chosen ones in the ressurection. All the nations that stream into her would be human. (I thinK)?

    Why would we have to go to heaven to celebrate the marriage of the Lamb if New Jerusalem is coming down from heaven as a wife adorned for her husband. The angle pointed out and said to JoHn. Come see the Lambs wife .

    Why do you never ever when i ask you say anything about the new Jerusalem coming down here as its written. Is GOd lying when he said his tent would be over man kind and they would be his people. he will reside with them for ever?

    I must ask you these things as you seem to command all you say. Hope your not wrong.
    Never the less. I want answers to believe what you say.
    Sister Ruth


  36. JohnS says:

    Fair enough questions, but let me ask you one first,Are you scared of heights? You seem like you don’t want to go see the Father, why not? We are going to be in the “HEAVENLY KINGDOM”. 2 Tim.4:18 “The Kingdom of the heavens is like…” Jesus said repeatedly. Daniel and the Revelation both had visions of the Kingdom of the Holy Ones receiving the Kingdom IN HEAVEN. This is not my interpretation, it is stated 100’s of times in the teachings of Christ,and the Apostles. I agree that after the Lamb and his bride are ‘married’ in heaven, they rule on the earth. And whether this is literal, as it seems to suggest, or not, still remains to be seen. All I have to build my mental picture is what is in prophecy. I want to state again, for the record, I don’t know for sure what these illustrations mean exactly. The GOSPEL which is in plainer descriptions will sometimes help define these prophecies. The gospel says we will get our reward in heaven, we put on incorruptible bodies in the first resurrection. This hope is reserved in the heavens for us. 1 Pet.1:4 If we come back after the marriage to earth for the ‘1000 Year Rule’, then finish with the resurrection /restoration work, then go back up, that’s possible, but as you know, I’m not the authority on any of this.


  37. JohnS says:

    ” In the house of my Father there are many abodes. Otherwise, I would have told you, because I am going my way to prepare a place for you. Also, if I go my way and prepare a place for you, I am coming again and will receive you home to myself, that where I am, you also may be. And where I am going you know the way…..Jesus said, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” John 14:2-4,6
    Sister Ruth, as I am most familiar with it, I quote from the Gospel of John on this. I found so much instruction about the whole plan from this book, and 1st,2nd, and 3rd John, and of course what I can understand from Revelation. Again , I must emphasize the Holy Spirit will teach us through the scriptures, especially the Lord’s conversations. I try to stick to Jesus’ comments and teachings even over the Apostles, whenever I can. When we set ourselves up as the authority on the Word, we are out of line. If you see me doing this, I told you many times, show me the love, tell me so.


  38. Disappointed says:

    Brothers and sisters I am feeling really confused here, from what has been said here and over on the 21cc site. You are all saying you are anointed and being led by the spirit and it is teaching you and telling you what to believe, yet you all believe strongly different things.I can understand if someone says they believe something different because that’s the way they’ve understood it for themselves but not when each of you says that the Holy Spirit has told you. It disturbs me because either 1)It isn’t the Holy Spirit doing the teaching so how can you say it is? or 2)the Holy Spirit is misleading you… because you can’t all be right. I’ve been praying to God about it and asking for his help to try and understand but I’m getting no answers (yet). I’m beginning to feel my faith getting a little shaky here. To me the scriptures clearly speak of ones (whatever number it is) going to heaven and having spirit bodies like the angels, but also that New Jerusalem comes down out of heaven to the earth but I’m not claiming the Holy Spirit has told me this, this is just my own understanding. Maybe the Holy Spirit doesn’t work on us like we think it does, maybe it’s all in our imagination. Maybe we’ve actually been left to our own devices. Sometimes I start to think there’s a certain comfort in conformity of thought if this is where independent thinking takes me… it’s disturbing..
    Feeling very shaken and confused here…


    • JJ says:


      Please don’t waver in your faith because of what others do or say. Each of us stands before our Creator and his appointed Judge Christ Jesus and must answer for our actions.

      People, by their very nature, tend to have strong opinions. They feel that what they are doing, saying, believing, is right. And there’s nothing wrong with that as long as other’s views are respected also. So lining up 100 people about a certain issue will rarely yield all 100 feeling the same way about it.

      God’s HS does help us on our Christian walk to gain strength and understanding of the Scriptures. We are all at different levels of maturity and clarity. Some have been away from the Witness movement for decades. Others a year, some still attend. How could we NOT be at different stages of development and Christian clarity of mind?

      Don’t let yourself be quickly shaken from your reason! Pray on this matter. Show a waiting attitude as the scripture says…and God will give you his peace my sister.



  39. Amos says:

    Brother John,

    I know the reasons that you & others are of the belief that the “body of Christ” will have their abode in the heavenlies, BUT can you please provide specific scriptures to support this understanding?
    I have searched the scriptures from end to end without finding any direct verses to support an actual leaving the earth &/or it’s vicinity.
    Quite to the contrary, there are many verses that show God’s kingdom will come down & dwell with mankind on the earth.

    Rev. 5:9, 10; “Worthy are you to take the scroll
    and to open its seals, for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God from every tribe and language and people and nation, 10 and you have made them a kingdom and priests to our God, and THEY SHALL REIGN ON THE EARTH.”

    Rev. 21:1-5; Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. 2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, THE DWELLING PLACE OF GOD IS WITH MAN. HE WILL DWELL WITH THEM, AND THEY WILL BE HIS PEOPLE, AND GOD HIMSELF WILL BE WITH THEM AS THEIR GOD. 4 He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.”
    5 And he who was seated on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” Also he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.”

    As I quoted to you on 21CC today, Matt.6:10; “Let your Kingdom come, let your will be done ALSO IN THE EARTH, just AS IT IS IN HEAVEN.”

    And another; Matt.5:5; “Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.”

    If you think about it, the main expression concerning THE Kingdom, is that it is said to be, “OF Heaven” not “IN Heaven”.

    Matt. 3:2; And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

    Matt. 4:17; From that time Jesus began to preach, saying, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”

    1, Do you think that the “Kingdom of Heaven” only has an effect “IN Heaven?

    2, Or do you think that it will/does also have an effect or an agency here on earth?

    3, Do you believe there will be any people alive on earth following the return of Yeshua?

    4, Do you believe there will be human survivors from the second resurrection that will faithfully serve God, here on the earth?

    Brother John, can you please keep your answer simple & on topic?

    BTW, in your reply to Sister Ruth #37, you said the following;
    “When we set ourselves up as the authority on the Word, we are out of line.” Who has set themselves up in this way???



  40. Disappointed says:

    Thanks my brother, you’re a real treasure and I will keep praying about it, I promise.


    • andrew says:

      I can appreciate your concern, disappointed. I 2nd JJ’s comment to you. Some feel that any strong belief they have on doctrinal or prophetic matters is because the Spirit has taught them this. And since the spirit has taught them this understanding they think that those who disagree with them are “lacking faith” or “obviously don’t have the spirit” or they can even go to the extreme of saying that the person who disagrees is a tool of Satan and isn’t a true Christian. This kind of behavior is a divisive influence and has been since Christianity’s inception.

      My belief is that the spirit leads us to belief in Christ. He is the truth. Most other doctrinal matters are not salvation issues. Logic and history would seem to indicate that God does not make clear all doctrinal issues through His spirit. The bible is not a doctrinal treatise that makes all doctrinal and prophetical issues clear as a bell.

      What should this tell us? That these doctrinal matters such as Where will the righteous be rewarded? What is the exact relationship between Jesus, YHWH, and the holy spirit? What happens immediately after we die? What is God’s view of the modern nation of Israel? What is the correct view of prophecy? etc. etc. are in the long run not near as important as our love for God and neighbor.

      Perhaps God purposely made these matters unclear in the bible to see how we will react to those who disagree with us. Will we self-righteously claim that everything we believe is from God’s spirit while those who disagree are “following men”, “lacking faith” and “wolves in sheep’s clothing”? Or will we treat those who disagree with us with love, consideration, and respect, truly believing that it is we ourselves who could be wrong and our brother the one who is right?

      I would humbly ask all those who comment to not pass judgment on those who disagree. Do not attempt to vilify them or put them down by suggesting that they lack faith or haven’t read closely enough the scriptures. Please do not suggest that they are following men just because they don’t agree. If we elevate ourselves by putting down our brother we are not showing how spiritual we are, in fact we’re showing just the opposite. It creates a hostile environment where some may be afraid to even mention what they believe about a certain bible text for fear of being thought of as not “having the spirit”.

      Of course we may disagree and show reasons why we disagree but do so in a respectful, loving manner even if we are sure the other person is wrong.

      Sorry for writing so much but it is an issue that I feel strongly about and I believe needs attention.



  41. Disappointed says:

    Bro. Andrew… I wholeheartedly agree… and I think this is exactly what I feel about it too. The Holy Spirit leads us to Christ and teaches us his truths. Anything else is mere speculations. This is why there are so many doctrines, beliefs, religions. When someone is sincere but wrong in his beliefs, if they are important ones(as in the case of Saul)then Jesus will show them the way. If they are not so important (as in the case of some of the things the disciples didn’t understand) Jesus reveals it when the time is right. Thankyou for your thoughtful words.


  42. JohnS says:

    Dear Sister Disappointed,
    As you know me as well or better from my comments here, I will openly say, my views are different from what is published on that sight, and the truth about ’21st’ is, I am allowed to comment only,not post topics at this time, on that site. They are currently reviewing my ‘exegesis'(interpretations), and I did unsuccessfully attempt to post 6 essays,over a a month’s time, but was turned down and the reason was given that my punctuation was poor, and my essays wandered off theme considerably, so I had to come up to a higher writing standard before they could clear my essays. Well, I had a little hurt feelings over it, for a couple of days, until I decided to comment on this major teaching, which is the restoration teaching of the Natural House of Israel in the last days, something similar to the Bible Students ‘ teachings. You may read my views on this,and decide for yourself.I am not considered one of the “Moderators ” on that site, or this one the ‘Strugglers’ site either, and as you know all the reasons why, as I am, by far viewed as “old school” possibly, still holding to some views WT taught, as I believe they were right on many things.
    I would like to refrain from ever saying again,if I did before,although I implied it many times, that “The Spirit” taught me this or that” meaning he came to me with a special Revelation. I will have to rephrase this concept, to be what is described in 1 Corin. 2:13, ” These things we also speak not with words taught by human wisdom, but with those taught by the spirit, as we combine SPIRITUAL MATTERS WITH SPIRITUAL WORDS.”
    In the final analysis, YOU will have to read the scriptures for yourself, and discern what they are saying to you. Neither I ,nor anyone can teach you, as this is personal between you and God, it appears. Now, I try to see what the scriptures are saying on that subject, as these others do too. We are hammering out an acceptable understanding on BOTH these sites. Iron sharpens iron the Bible says. For instance, Andrew and I have differences in interpretation. You and I do too. But Andrew wrote an article on the forum that gave me a lot more respect for him,as I felt it was very well researched, and in line with the scriptures. Now, where he goes with his second article, we will see….. But I am with him so far. We can begin to find a meeting of the minds on both sites, but must discuss these things in a point-counterpoint manner,as the views are quite different sometimes. As Andrew wisely said, we should eliminate the hostility in the replies. And I have been guilty of sarcasm at least many times, and I’m sorry. I have been warned of this, and am working on it.
    Don’t be stumbled, but love Jah’s word, we enjoy your ‘exegesis’ as well, you have good reasoning too. Time will tell, if I personally will be even allowed to comment anywhere, I am usually the offender. If I am not, be assured I acted in good faith ,as I felt what I was saying was accurate and in compliance with the scriptures. Be strong, and I guess you could always be wary of any Bible commentary,until you personally have researched your Bible, and have grown up in your own ‘powers of understanding’. Show trust in our Father, wisdom may prevail on both sites,according to the working of the Holy Spirit…,we shall know in time.(Jas.4:15)


  43. Disappointed says:

    Brother John, thankyou. All you brothers (and sisters) have a deep love for God and his Word, you are all sincere and you all believe different things. This is fine. We cannot understand all things. The problem I was having is that quite a few (not just one) seemed to be saying they were right and it was because they had the Holy Spirit. This means that everyone else must be wrong and therefore could not have the Holy Spirit. This is what is so wrong with the WTS and it’s what I’m trying to get away from. I believe the Holy Spirit is leading me to Christ but it is not leading me to understand everything that is open to interpretation. I think bro. Andrew in his comment above is spot on. The Holy Spirit also produces in us it’s fruits. Love,joy, peace,long-suffering,kindness,goodness,faith,mildness and self-control. To me these things are far more important than bashing out doctrines and trying to force our views on each other.
    We can all present our ‘dishes’ at the table so to speak… it’s the way we do it, graciously with a smile and a knife and fork and allow someone to feed themselves or plonk it down with a loud bang and proceed to forcefeed it to someone with a big spoon. I’ve had too many years as a JW being fed this way!


  44. Ruth says:

    Prayer to our Father in heaven.

    We love you so much father. We thank you for bringing and showing us who your son is and why you have given him all responsibility to care for your scattered sheep to-day.
    We feel so honoured that you have selected us. Help us never take you for granted.

    Please holy one before your thrown we sit and wait for you instruction. Longing to be with you for ever and ever as you promised us. You share your heart and love with so many and we are so pleased you have given your grace to us.
    Thank you Father that you love us so much! We have let you down often, please forgive us for that.
    Only your love and experience can unite us as we are brought from false religions into truth.
    We are like lost sheep. Wandering from this thought to that. Trying to find all the answers to all the questions in our minds.
    Holy father show us how to be united in spirit and truth. Listening when you truly speak to us.

    We see you have your definite laws and regulations and these never change.
    Please help us to understand how deep your love and laws are. How to show respect and tenderness, brotherly love as you walk us through these darks times.

    You father with your son Yeshua are our joy. Our happiness our reason to get out of bed everyday.
    You are our light that you want to reflect in us. Please help us Father as many of us step out of your will and run ahead of you. Again forgive us.

    Father we look up to you with so much love in our hearts. We know you will eventually for fill all our needs and desires. Help us to be patient.
    Bless our hearts and make them pure so we can be patient with each other. Let us see through your eyes. Hear through your ears, Speak through your mouth…


  45. JohnS says:

    For a guy that has worked so hard to put out a product I feel is on harmony with the gospel, and I am getting shot down and fired on to the point that I will say. Enough.
    I believe the Bible is a source of TRUTH. I don’t agree with the ambiguous, lie, that we don’t have the ability to find the truth , even about God, and the Son’s relationship. If the moderators on this site take such a compromising stand, it’s the same as turning out the lighthouse lights, and letting the ships hit the rocks. I want to part on these messages, and you that don’t appreciate my firm stand on the gospel can now exult, as I am going. There is truth in the Bible. The gospel is in John, and Christ explains it fully. The kingdom is in heaven, but comes down to earth, Ion. And lastly, I made the statement to Ruth, that if she sees me setting MYSELF UP AS THE WAY OF THE TRUTH, and the last word , let me know Because I would be way out of line. You all, I have worked night and day for months for and with you side by side. I believed we had a wonderful thing started here. It appears you will all be going through the next phase without me, and I will say so long, and the best to you all.


    • JJ says:

      Brother JohnS

      I don’t quite understand why you are upset, but I don’t believe your disagreement is with me. I appreciate your efforts and Bible-based thoughts. Wherever you go, you will find Christians seeking to serve the Master.

      God’s people are scattered throughout the world and are still listening to the voice of the Fine Shepherd.

      With you in Christ,


  46. Ruth says:

    In Yeshua’s name we pray.


  47. Ruth says:

    Dear bro JohnS.
    I hope you find happiness and peace on your new journey. You just might find a little sheep as you go preaching in this new area you spoke about last week. I love preaching out doors myself. Love talking casually. Hoping for a sheep like response. Guess the Lord will do his will no matter what.

    All the best.
    Sister Patricia


  48. JohnS says:

    Thanks Ruth, I won’t stop preaching, till I die, and my word is truth, as I speak what is not mine, but the Gospel of our Lord, which is welcome on any continent by loyal Christians. Though discouraged now, I will not stop fighting for truth, though doubt and falsehood abound,and insidious attempts to destroy faith in God’s word sometimes succeed.
    JJ, my beef is not with you. As I stated earlier, I am fighting untruth, and do not hate anyone. My efforts are not understood, this is because of inexperience mostly, but there are other factors. I will E-mail you some information. Good night for now all. Keep fighting for the faith… there are many opposers.


  49. Anonymous says:

    the wtc is a false prophet everyone knows that.But why they still have control over people’s life? is it because of their ignorance.can somebody answer that.


  50. Ruth says:

    By the way your conducting yourself are doing more harm to the precious sheep than good.
    I cannot believe the way you treat our brothers . My heart is so sad. My soul is aching .


  51. JohnS says:

    Anonymous, a simple answer to your question is the sheep among the Witnesses have trusted in their masters in New York, instead of thoroughly becoming familiar with the Master Shepherd’s voice. Now, they don’t recognize what Bible Truth is, so they continue to follow WT.
    Ruth, I am not treating the brothers badly, I was discussing the dangers of Zionism’s infiltration of Christianity, as foretold by Christ(Matt.7:15 10:16) Please don’t make me out to be a bad guy,I have worked too hard to teach the truth here, and deserve more credit than that,don’t you think?


  52. JohnS says:

    Sister D, I loved the “Plonk it down on the table and force-feed it” comment. And when you said we all have a right to bring our little dishes to the table and people can sample them and see what they think. Spoken like a major imitator of the Master of the art of the illustration, well done ! We have had some awesome conversations on this site, with some great argumentation/reasoning. Now all we have to do is keep at that gospel, and eventually we should be able to get more light on these subjects. We certainly have a lot of years of research here, and experience, if we were to add up all the years of service together, I bet it would be a large number.
    I hope to continue to contribute,as I get a persecution complex going and I get discouraged, I don’t mind saying these things in public. Does this bother people? I feel I can share my feelings with Witnesses, they were the people I most trusted all my life, and still do, just not some in the hierarchy.


  53. Rupunzelsawake says:

    Brother Andrew, I whole-heartedly agree with the sentiments and spirit you show. There are some things we can be certain of, and many things we cannot be certain of. It is interesting, and stimulating, to consider all manner of possibilities and interpretations, but my view is that unless it is clear in the scriptures we will have to wait till that time Paul referred to “For we have partial knowledge and we prophesy partially; but when that which is complete arrives, that which is partial will be done away with..At present we see in hazy outline..but then it will be face to face…then I shall know accurately”


  54. James Broughton says:

    A useful book for those who have been traumatised by their experience as JWs is ‘When A Church Becomes a Cult’ by Stephen Wookey, (Hodder & Stoughton). He writes as an Anglican and with much helpful advice. I was only involved as a teenager and was not baptised as a Witness but I still have a yearning to reach out to them now that I am a Christian.


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