The organization that we were a part of has a definite structure of rules. Many of these rules go “beyond the things written” (1 Corinthians 4:6). It must be admitted that this structure helped some spiritually immature ones avoid some harmful things. However, the same structure stunted the growth of our conscience.

Many of the rules that the Society has were conscience issues at one time. Then in the mistaken belief that devising a rule would help the brothers keep from sinning, rules were instituted. Later over the course of time more was added on these rules and some of them even became disfellowshipping offenses. In many cases the leaders of the org. have tried to enforce their own conscience on to others.

The result of the enforcement of a large body of rules is that the conscience of many JWs never gets a chance to develop. When a question arises over how they should act in a given circumstance they check the publications to see what has been said about it. If the matter has not been dealt with in the publications then many JWs think there is no harm in it. To give an example of this one brother told me that he wouldn’t watch boxing because the Society has spoken against it, but he was a fan of UFC fights that are much more violent than boxing because at the time the publications said nothing about UFC fights. Would you say that this brother had a stunted conscience?

When many JWs leave the organization they don’t know how to determine right from wrong since their conscience has never developed. They were simply following rules. The fear that someone would report them to the elders if they did something wrong was enough to keep them inline. Now however that fear has been taken away along with the structure of rules. They are adrift without any anchor so many simply adopt the relative morality of society in general.

Other ex-JW Christians struggle with other conscience issues such as: Should I vote or become involved in politics in any way? Can I celebrate birthdays, Christmas and other holidays? What type of entertainment should I choose? Should I become involved with a church so as to have fellowship with a group of Christians? These are but a small sample of the many questions that all of us face. We must take personal responsibility for our decisions and not simply leave the choices to an organization or other church.

If you are reading this chances are you are already experiencing increased freedom. For some right now at present it is only mental freedom from the shackles of Watchtower narrow mindedness and indoctrination. For others the freedom is more tangible. How will we use this freedom?

Galatians 5:13,14 ” For you were called to freedom, brothers. Only do not use your freedom as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. 14 For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

The Jews under the Law were under a rigid system of do’s and don’ts. Paul here tells the Galatians that they were free. There was no longer a rigid system of rule keeping that would gain God’s approval. Curiously many of the Galatians were seeking to be put under the Law with it’s rigid requirements, just like today some seek out a highly structured system of rules. In reality they were free from those rules, but they were not to use that freedom to work the desires of the flesh. What are the desires of the flesh?

Vs. 19-21 “Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, 21 envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these.”

The freedom the Galatians had and we also have is the freedom to serve one another through love. Instead of checking the publications to see if something is alright we know that if a certain act shows love to others and our Creator than we are free to participate in it. Does a certain act show selfishness, pride, or intensify our desires of the flesh? Then the mature Christian wisely avoids it.

Once the conscience is mature it isn’t necessary to consult some Watchtower publication to see how we should act in a certain situation, nor will we need the threat of being reported to some congregational authority as pressure to do what is right. We are a free people in Christ. We do not put our conscience under some other person’s authority nor do we set ourselves up as an authority to dictate to others how they should handle conscience matters. We may give advice but we wisely leave the decision to each individual.

Galatians 5:1 ” For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery.”

Romans 14:1 “As for the one who is weak in faith, welcome him, but not to quarrel over opinions.”

Romans 14:4 “Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand.”

Romans 14:10 “Why do you pass judgment on your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God;”

Of course while exercising our Christian freedom we will wisely avoid stumbling weaker ones (Romans 14:13-23).



Being spiritual adults also has much to do with our choice of personal study. Babies are spoon-fed and swallow whatever is put into their mouths. Adults are more discerning about what they choose to eat. When we were followers of the Watchtower we were spoon-fed and we generally swallowed whatever was given us. If the organization taught something or made a change in teaching or in procedure, we swallowed it down without considering if it was scriptural or not. The Society made numerous changes on blood issues. What did we do? We swallowed. The Society said that the generation of Matt 24 was in actuality an overlapping generation that started in 1914 and will end sometime in the future. What did we do? We swallowed. The Society said that God talks through them and uses them as his sole channel. What did we do? We swallowed. Don’t get higher education! Swallow. All outside the organization are worldly and condemned by God. Swallow.

Now we are becoming more discerning. We no longer believe someone just because they say something. We check it for ourselves in the bible. We now accept personal responsibility for our decisions, what we believe, and what we teach others.

Truly knowing our Father and His son requires work. Instead of being lazy as to bible reading and study, we realize that having a mature, accurate understanding of the bible requires effort. We probably realize now that our understanding of the bible as a JW was superficial and very incomplete. We realize that in a number of doctrinal issues things aren’t black and white. Two mature, knowledgable Christians may have different viewpoints on a number of issues. Spiritual adulthood will help us to smooth over these differences and not cease fellowship because of them.

The road to Christian maturity can be a difficult one and we may periodically backslide, but let us put away the traits of a babe and walk as spiritual men and women.

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66 Comments on Spiritual Adulthood

  1. John S says:

    This is a good way to start building unity,Andrew,well put and at an appropriate time,as we have reached some impasse’ on knowledge issues on the site recently,as was inevitable.A thumbs-up from me,brother.(Prov.25:11)I have no desire to leave-off associating here with all of you.But desire all of us to become unified in love and the uniting bond of peace.I have enjoyed this site and been more excited than ever in 40 years of Christian learning as I have this past year and see huge potential in getting passed these growing pains we seem to be having….Peace …Love…Joy…Faith…Patience…Long suffering….self-control…mildnesss….kindness…be to all of you Strugglers!


  2. FutureMan says:

    I generally concur with you Andrew with this article here and it does reveal a lot of insight, but I will have to add this and no doubt many here will not agree with me, but where the apostle said “do not go beyond what is written” what was he actually implying?

    And just what exactly was written at that time?

    Was not the “spirit if truth” to itself teach them beyond what was written in what the Jews and Christians considered to be sacred scripture?

    What did Jesus say about the “Spirit of truth” well I will quote the scripture here.

    John 4
    23 But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth. For the Father also seeks such, the ones worshiping Him.
    24 God is a spirit, and the ones worshiping Him must worship in spirit and truth.

    John 14
    17 the Spirit of Truth, whom the world cannot receive because it does not see Him nor know Him. But you know Him, for He abides with you and shall be in you.

    John 14
    23 Jesus answered and said to him, If anyone loves Me, he will keep My Word, and My Father shall love him. And We will come to him and will make a dwelling place with him.
    24 The one who does not love Me does not keep My Words. And the Word which you hear is not Mine but of the Father who sent Me.
    25 ¶ I have spoken these things to you, abiding with you;
    26 but the Comforter, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He shall teach you all things and shall remind you of all things that I said to you.

    John 15
    26 ¶ And when the Comforter comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of Truth who proceeds from the Father, that One will witness concerning Me.

    John 16
    12 I have yet many things to tell you, but you are not able to bear now.
    13 But when that One comes, the Spirit of Truth, He will guide you into all Truth, for He will not speak from Himself, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will announce the coming things to you.
    14 That One will glorify Me, for He will receive from Mine and will announce to you. [LITV]

    Just as the “spirit of truth” was instrumental in their maturing as spiritual people and also their enlightenment as compared to the Jewish system that they were part of at that time, the same goes for us today.

    When we accept Jesus into our lives and accept him as our Lord and Master, then we are eligible to have access to the “Spirit of Truth” which will help us to increase the “talents of the truth” and our understanding of things even more than what the apostles had written back in their day.

    Today we must allow the “spirit of truth” to help us surpass the knowledge of all of Christendom (Jehovah’s witnesses included) and thereby increase the talents that our Lord Jesus gave his apostles in the first place.

    Of course this is all from my perspective and understanding, for what it is worth.


  3. FutureMan says:

    Excuse please the grammar mistake where it says in my comment “spirit if truth”.

    It should have said, “spirit of truth”.

    Sorry about that, if any of you were confused by the grammar mistake.


  4. John S says:

    Well-said,Futureman,so exciting a topic,I must weigh-in even before Andrew can answer,since I have a laptop at my disposal.
    If you noticed,the Spirit of truth which upon becoming anointed,dwells inside our fleshly bodies.This is actually how we can now become true adopted sons of God.We now have God in us by his Spirit.This is the power that not only helps us overcome our fleshly weaknesses to produce the spiritual qualities of God’s image,but as Futureman is explaining,we are now given the deeper understanding of scripture and can become wise,discreet,and especially Christlike in ways,thought,and discernment of his teachings.Not that any new revelations are given,as in each case mentioned,it explains the spirit helps the anointed one to discern the sayings of the Son of God.This is really what I meant for months now,when I’ve referred to the simple gospel.It means getting the Holy Spirit so we can get true knowledge of things the Lord taught and especially the Revelation,as it may well be(possibly)the time now for understanding the appropriate parts for us.
    This is how the spirit works for me.As I read the scriptures,seriously,deeper study and meditation,then these truths start to unfold.(Lately been lazy about this)But just casual reading or a little reading here or there seems to make little-to-no progress.No pain-no-gain.I did see the need several years ago to find anointed ones and compare notes,as like brother Willie brought up,the scriptures teach us some are apostles,teachers,prophets,etc.with a view to the building up of the body of Christ,filling up the body with members,and someday,it will be a full body that functions in all its parts and reflects the Father’s image.We all know the thinking brain part is always going to be Christ himself.And thus we have plenty in the scriptures to try to figure out that came from the mouth of the head on our spiritual body;the Logos,Christ,his teachings,sayings,life story,sufferings,illustrations,etc.
    Thankyou for bringing this up;one of my favorite things to talk about.And since out of the heart’s abundance,the mouth speaks(wisdom from the Lord)we will be on fire to learn new understanding here at this site,and discuss these newly revealed truths about the Lord and his Kingdom.And the talk will be exciting and will flow deeper and deeper from our site as a result,we will not be able to contain it,it will flow out as living water from this site,and impart words of everlasting life to other struggling witnesses who are looking for these truths.They will recognize the true Shepherd’s voice here,and will come,and bring others with them.
    In answer to another brother’s question,the other day,we will be truly preaching the good news of the Kingdom worlwide on this site,without having to get dressed up in a suit and tie,or stop off and spend a fortune on fuel for an auto.What a beautiful blessing we now have.Even when we are sick at home,or on death’s door,we can proclaim on the w.w.web the good news.Others will be doing the same all over.This is just one congregation.The Lord is waking up the virgins in ours,and many other’s cases,to get their lamps in order,and light up the dark night of sleep and release the shackles of religious slavery.


  5. Anonymous says:

    Great article. I do not think the org was EVER directed by God. I agree that as JW we did not really know much other than what the slave fed us.


  6. andrew says:

    Futureman, I agree with much of what you say. However, I believe the Spirit will lead us to understand better what has already been revealed by inspiration but it will not lead us to go beyond the things that are written in the bible. That would be inspiration. If the spirit is revealing something totally new to us then we are claiming to be in the same category as the inspired bible writers. That is dangerous ground.

    Paul said in Galatians 1:8 “But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed”

    The message of the gospel as contained in the bible IMO cannot be contradicted by any other writing or revelation and not be “accursed”.

    Paul said that he didn’t say anything that the prophets and Moses didn’t say. Acts 26:22 “To this day I have had the help that comes from God, and so I stand here testifying both to small and great, saying nothing but what the prophets and Moses said would come to pass”

    The New Testament in reality is just the fulfillment of the Old Testament.


  7. man oh man says:

    Outstanding article! I agree wholeheartedly. I also say stick to the scriptures and do not go beyond. Please No More New Light!!! If it isn’t clearly taught in God’s Word then let us wait! We don’t need to know it all at this time. Differing opinions are fine. But let’s be careful or we will be just like the organization before you know it.

    (Psalm 119:105) 105 Your word is a lamp to my foot, And a light to my roadway.

    Nothing else needed! Well except a complete heart.


  8. FutureMan says:

    I see things differently, as I see a progression of truth and enlightenment.

    First the visions and writings of Enoch etc, then Melchizedek’s teachings that permeated the earth during the time of Abraham and then Moses who set up the Mosaic law covenant between Israel and God, and then through the prophets of God.

    Originally God’s truth appeared through much of what the true prophets of God had spoken and then the “Word of God” came down to earth and enlightened us humans some more as to who God really is as a person and to the “Kingdom of God” and how as humans we should behave to one another.

    The apostles although imperfect men did enlighten us some more with the aid of the “spirit of truth” and then came along Revelation that was given to John.
    But it does not stop there, because the revelation of God,and the Son, and the Kingdom and the rest of our universe is an ongoing process.

    If we think that we have all the truth now, then we are deluding ourselves and allowing that veil to cover our eyes.

    For the Bible does not have the whole truth, but only in part.

    Until we take that veil completely of, we will not see the truth as it unfolds.


    • andrew says:

      I can agree FM that we don’t have all the truth now. There are many, many matters that the bible doesn’t talk about. I do believe we have been given enough truth to walk with God. And that is what is important.


      • DanielB says:

        This is a fine post Andrew . You began with , “The organization that we were a part of has a definite structure of rules. Many of these rules go “beyond the things written” . . .

        . . . And so it has been with the religious branches of christendom . It is just as the Old Testament had said , that when we think we know a matter well , then we must come to see that we really know very little .

        I appreciate how the apostle Paul phrased it in his 1st letter to the Corinthians at 2:1-5 : ” When I came to you , brothers , I did not come with eloquence or superior wisdom as I proclaimed to you the testimony about God . For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified . I came to you in weakness and fear , and with much trembling . My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words , but with a demonstration of the Spirit’s power , so that your faith might not rest on men’s wisdom , but on God’s power . ” (NIV)

        The attention is drawn to Paul’s acknowledgement that ” . . . I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified . ”

        And as you say , ” Now we are becoming more discerning. We no longer believe someone just because they say something. ”

        Eloquent as it may be , it must build only on the Christ . – John 10:1-5

        Good article .


        • DanielB says:

          I just took a gander at the 6-15-11 wt and the article concerning education . It was an insidious graphic illustration concerning exagerated pulls from various directions that young people endure . True , there are some , but it’s just another clutch at rule making for the cult , I am sad to say . Such reasoning actually can stifle a young person’s “road” to maturity . So many who are , or who had been witnesses are regretful concerning this . It hurts me , since I have many children associated .


          • DanielB says:

            . . . and grandchildren .

            I by no means intend this to be JW-bashing ; but it just reasons this way to me :

            If I have a choice of leaving the magazines on top of a local laundromat washing machine , or engaging young minds at college and educators , on subjects of faith in our Savior , which one will I do and enjoy the most ? Hands down , I opt for the school environment . I have done this many times myself , and have good wholesome experiences from it as a result . No big coodos for me over this , only the point ought to be clear for those young “thinking persons” out there . The young Christian just needs to maintain faith in the word , with it’s wisdom , and let the empty philosophies of men go it’s own way to extinction .


  9. Bro. Ed says:

    Brother Andrew and brother John, what you have both written is in absolute unity with my thoughts. And here we see the unity Christ said would bind his followers together so that his body would operate towards working to fulfill the will of the Father. None of us here have been baptized into an organization of man made rules and regulations. Our unity is not brought about by agreeing on the commandments of men but on declaring the commandments of God through his Son. Of all the insightful articles posted here, this one is for me the essence of what spiritual maturity is and the real freedom it brings. Brother John, I think your response is rock solid. We’ve seen so many examples of people using the ploy of “revealing new revelations” to lead astray, even those of the elect. What we have in Christ and in his Apostles is the utterances of our Father, His word. Who among us (broadly speaking) would dare put words in the Almighty Fathers mouth? Not even his son, who was the Word of God, spoke or acted on his own accord. That in itself is a lesson to anyone who feels they can go beyond what is written.

    I’m refreshed and enlivened by being among you, my brothers and sisters.

    Your brother in Christ

    Bro. Ed


  10. Londo says:

    This article made me realize how much of an infant I am. For the first time in my life though, I am able to take baby steps. Thanks Andrew!


  11. JJ says:

    Well said Brother Andrew. The goal to “press on to maturity” in our Christian walk is a good one, and as 2 Tim 3:16,17 says we will be fully equipped as individual “men [and woman!] of God”. The JWS site helps us to do that, but it will NEVER be a substitute for personal Bible study, prayer, mediation on God’s thoughts, gathering together, etc.

    An earlier comment (Brother John S I think) mentioned that perhaps we are at an “impasse on knowledge issues” on the site. I would agree with this statement. The reason though is that a website (no matter how useful) can only supplement, not replace Christian activities such as meeting together for deep Bible study and other aspects of worship such as the Lord’s Supper. Our conscience may impel us to want to study and discuss certain things, as does the Holy Spirit prod us along. We want to listen to these! That is one of the ways we continue to grow up in our love and knowledge of our Lord Jesus and gain maturity.


  12. confused says:

    Andrew, great article brother. It got me thinking quite a bit, im really starting over again. Im glad I dont have the organization “telling me” what the Bible means/says.


  13. Willie says:

    This was a very good article, Andrew, and I liked what John and Ed said too on this timely subject. I am trying to comprehend exactly what FutureMan was trying to get across and I hope it was this: based on Pro. 4:18, which does not say that the LIGHT shines brighter (which I always thought that it DID say), but that the PATH of the JUST is AS the shining light that shineth MORE and MORE unto the PERFECT DAY. The JUST have more and more enLIGHTenment along their PATH (the NARROW WAY) which increases all the way to the PERFECT DAY–the END of the Millennium when Christ turns the Kingdom back over to the Father (I Cor. 15:24-28).

    The Bible is God’s Word and it IS complete–“all the counsel of God” (Acts 20:27) as expressed by Paul, who also had a valuable understanding of the future provided by visions and revelations described in II Cor. 12:1-7, though he was not allowed to express them in so many words. I particularily zeroed in on your statement, Andrew, that: “The New Testament in reality is just the fulfillment of the Old Testament.” Absolutely!

    Psalms 12:6 says, “The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.” One thought is that a refiner of precious metals knows when the purifying process is complete by being able to see his image reflected in the metal. God’s casts His people into the furnace of affliction until he sees that they are refined and purified. Our Lord Jesus carries out this examination as we read in Mal. 3:1-3. Our goal–“this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind” as Paul wrote in Phil. 3:13,14–is to be sure that the impurities are gone (the JUST above) so that Jesus can see his image when he looks into the gold or silver of our souls.

    In our day the Bible contains both the Old Testament and the New Testament. Psalm 12:6 might indicate that the Word of God has seven layers of understanding. Even if we are spirit-begotten, we can only expect to understand a small part of it; perhaps we’ll only scratch the surface of the first layer in this life. I doubt that eternity will be long enough to decipher the heights and depths of the Bible for it reflects the mind of God which is beyond our comprehension.

    Regarding “New Light”–the Bible itself, the actual words, haven’t changed in almost 2000 years; it is our UNDERSTANDING that changes. Daily our understanding should grow via the method described in Isaiah 28:10,13–and we wish it to be so, for whatever isn’t proven personally is of little value. We can’t make progress without effort. “Prove all things; hold fast that which is good” (I Thess. 5:21).

    It seems that it would be helpful to former JW’s–in fact, those of any religion who are in the questioning mode–to use a different translation from the NWT, or whatever they usually use, for the simple reason that reading a different text will provoke the brain into a sharper focus simply because the synapsis of the brain will be altered–not being able to take the old “comfortable” or “uncomfortable” paths–depending on how one sees it. I know that Rotherham, the Diaglott for the NT, and others are excellent translations and I have several, but I use the KJV mainly because the Strong’s and Young’s Concordances are “calibrated” to it. Unlike most Jehovah’s Witnesses I have met, I cannot remember where things are found even though I might be able to quote the whole verse. I have also marked which verses are deemed spurious in the KJV copy that I use daily.

    God’s thinking is expressed in the LAW of the Old Testament and I find that Deuteronomy is an favorite of mine in that regard. I know that: “What Would Jesus Do?” seems to be a trite saying, but it would be a great help for one who is trying to develop a personal conscience of right and wrong until he acquires the scriptural understanding [hopefully as a matter of second nature] to guard his thoughts and actions. Being fallen human beings there are many things that we do that would “cast a shadow” under the “light” of that simple question: “What would Jesus do”?


  14. greybeard says:

    Thank you brother Andrew! Great job and good time for it. I agree 100% :)


  15. John S. says:



  16. John S. says:



  17. DanielB says:

    Brother john , you said :



    “—Ed-F’nnen–we-now-wiLlERN-nneny-things—-sterting-o’er” .

    What does this mean ?


    • greybeard says:

      Good question Daniel,

      I love John S, he has much good input, but when he comes off with this strange garbage typing it makes no sense at all. This might be his sense of humor… I just don’t want it to turn other visitors away.

      John S: Is there a reason you type this way sometimes? Honestly I’m just curious…


  18. DanielB says:

    Seems like :

    “Great thoughts Willie ! A #10 !

    Even if’n we now will learn many things starting over .”

    I know he has had trouble with his “a” key on his keyboard . Apparently more than that . Cute .


  19. Willie says:

    Dear Greybeard, Br. John explained several weeks ago that he spilled something on his keyboard and several of the keys don’t work anymore. He goes to the library and/or uses his son’s computer when he can–the rest of the time he improvises.
    I think that an “a” is usually written by using an “e,” a dash symbol(-) means a “space,” and he explained earlier that he is using two “n”s to equal an “m”; so his second message would read: “Ed, FutureMan, we now will learn many things–starting over.” Now, I don’t know what that means. We all wish that he had a new computer, and I’m sure he’ll get one as soon as he can.


    • DanielB says:

      Years ago I learned that folks don’t realize it but that a mouse or a keyboard can actually be taken into the shower and be cleaned there . I have never tried it , but it was a valid reliable source of information ; from a newsletter . It will of course need to be dried well after .

      For what it’s worth . . .


  20. Disappointed says:

    Thanks for this article bro. Andrew. It’s so true that actually having all those rules and regulations laid out for us makes us become lazy. How many JWs actually do deep bible study? Search out whether the things we have been taught are true or not? The problem is that we have been told so many times that this ‘spiritual food’ comes from Jehovah and we should just accept it and never question it that we end up doing just that! Never studying God’s word for ourselves, just letting it be fed to us on a plate.
    I like this point you made.. “We are a free people in Christ. We do not put our conscience under some other person’s authority nor do we set ourselves up as an authority to dictate to others how they should handle conscience matters.”
    We ARE free, Jesus told us the ‘truth’ would set us free, and it has! We all need to become mature christians and that means each one of us strengthening our own consciences based on God’s word alone.


  21. Anonymous says:

    Sorry all,I get excited at home reading your comments,and can’t resist a sign of my enthusiastic consent/approval.I am at the Library,and have a few minutes of time left.My main question to all;What is the best translation to use in your opinions,as I was reading the info. on the NWT,and Wescott and Hort,at the site;…http//….This was recommended by a brother recently,and I really am charging into a restart of examining the Bible’s textual accuracy,as seemingly Futureman has been trying to elucidate,with some friction from all,of course.Will you who care read on this,and get back to me?I’m wondering if I will use the NWT at all,anymore after what I have read on this site.
    Of course the ex-Witness that posted this info. also seems to believe the Trinity doctrine and even Hellfire,now,so I am double skittish about the info.,considering his “premise”,as the article does make a big issue of course about the”premise” or beliefs of translators affecting their work.I believe you all will be quite surprised at what you find about Wescott and Hort,and especially about FRANZ ,as he is screened closely as the only one who knew anything about old languages in his role as the sole “renderer”….(not translator)…of the NWT.Remember,our NWT stated in the opening pages “Rendered from the Original Languages”,or s’thing to that effect,instead of ‘Translated’.I’m sorry Daniel for typing with my broken laptop,I’ll try again to refrain,so as not to irritate y’all.
    Please would any/or all let me know after reading that info. what may be a better Bible for us to use to get to a more accurate knowledge? I really feel I am having to start all over again,(comment to Ed)even as to which Bible,now to research in.Should we switch to one that has been translated from the ‘Received Text’?(the King James,or NKJ?) What say you all?


  22. Disappointed says:

    Bro. John.. I’m not going to stop using my NWT or any other translation for that matter. I’m happy to use any of them but I like to be able to compare several when I need to. Different bible translation have different biases towards various doctrines.. some more towards trinity, immortal soul, hellfire, etc.. others like the NWT towards the opposite. I think if we have access to all versions of the bible and can check against the original language and commenteries we should be able to find the real truth.


  23. confused says:

    Very good question, I haveing been reading probably the same things you are about Westcott and Hort…..I am collecting a variety of Bibles right now. With all the mistakes in the NWT, I dont like to use it anymore but unfortunately I am most familiar with the NWT and I find I have to find a scripture first in that translation before I can find it in another because of wording. Im sick and tired of hearing about all the bias in the Bible versions/translations… im just trying to read the message instead of picking it all apart which is what we were taught as Jw’s to do…..everyone has an opinion… doing a couple of book reviews right now for a former bethelite and when im done, im setting aside the books ive been reading and im going to concentrate reading the whole Bilbe. I know I keep repeating this but its not been easy forming thoughts and ideas since aside from what someone else (the org) has done….or maybe its been habit after doing so for sooooo many years…..either way, im sure it gets better. Ive been very interested in the Greek Interlinear as well and ive got some good books on that for my library im putting together. Bible reading is vital in drawing closer to God, his thoughts and purpose, along with prayer. I do miss not having anyone to do Bible reading with anymore…….
    The comments here have been great and encouraging to me as well.

    Disappointed…..yes, the NIV is one I like too. I appreciate your comments here, they are uplifting to the tired soul,,,, :)


    • DanielB says:

      I still enjoy locating scriptures that come to mind in the NWT also , since it has such a familiar concordance , as also my NWT Exhaustive Concordance does . My Comparative Study Bible by Zondervan works trough the Bible with side by side verses of the KJ version , Amplified , New American Standard , and New International . This is most helpful for reading for accurate meaning , though in essence , most of the Bible stays consistently the same . JJ may have the archives on this site for referring you to previous discussions on this topic . I looked , and it appears that this very subject’s shortcuts have been removed to make room , since it has come up before . Online , there & other multiple version / translation sites . There are a few versions out there that have a high rate of acceptance by the non-bias scholar community .

      What a fine thing to be seeking out , my friend ! “Keep on asking , and it will be given you ; keep on seeking , and you will find ; keep on knocking , and it will be opened to you .” Mt 7:7


    • Disappointed says:

      I’m really happy about that sister Confused! :)


  24. greybeard says:

    A great book on Bible translations in my opinion, is “Truth in Translation” by Jason Beduhn. It is around $40 but worth it. It shows how the top ten Bibles in print have trinity bias. It also shows how the New World Translation does not have trinity bias. I know there is no Bible without some kind of bias including the NWT. There are many things in the NWT that bother me however scriptures with trinity Bias like John 1:1 bother much more. I respect the fact that the NWT uses Jehovah in the Hebrew Scriptures. If anyone has a problem with it and then excepts the name Jesus without complaint then to me, that is hypocritical. Neither Jehovah or Jesus are accurate… The NWT did take liberty in adding the name Jehovah to the Greek Scriptures and that is highly debatable. So I find myself in a uncomfortable situation because I do not except the GB as Gods chosen channel however, I still do like to use the NWT… I do use others more now and compare. There really is no 100% accurate Bible in my opinion. If the JW/org would have focused more on the word of God then on making all of the man made rules they came up with, the NWT might have progressed into an even more accurate translation. Other than the NWT my favorite is the Holman Christian Standard Bible and can be read online here:


    • I will only use the reference edition of the NWT and read every footnote.

      I’m not sure the following is entirely accurate, “Neither Jehovah or Jesus are accurate…”

      The vowel points for Jesus / Yeshua where not lost as is the case with YHWH (Jehovah). The vowel points that were added from Adoni is really just a guess, right? This didn’t have to be done in the case of Jesus. So Jesus / Yeshua would be more accurate. This is my understanding anyway.



      • greybeard says:

        I also only use the reference edition of the NWT and read every footnote. I don’t claim to be a expert in this area but from what I have learned, there is no J in the Hebrew language. I have learned that Yahweh and Yeshua are far more accurate than Jehovah and Jesus. Whatever the case… The truth is, Jehovah Witness’s have not brought and glory to either name by setting false dates over and over and claiming to be prophets then turning around and lying about it… Still I respect the fact that they kept the name Jehovah in the Bible. As many know, The American Standard Bible had it everywhere in the Hebrew Scriptures. For whatever reason, most likely no bible sales, they removed it in the RSV. I do not respect that. The HCSB adds Yahweh back into the Bible many times but not nearly in all the places it should be in the Hebrew Scriptures. I do not understand this. I am sure I have a lot to learn on the subject…


  25. Bro. Ed says:

    Brother John, like the others, I reference more than one in my studies. I do quote from the English Standard Version quite often and NWT too, espcially when discussing scriptures with JWs. I use the interliniar online at as well and my old copy that the organization published way back when. It does require effort digging deep into scripture, but the effort is worth it.

    Your brother in Christ.


  26. John S says:

    Thanks you all for the suggestions.I,too used the KI put out by WT when I was examining the TATT,and I really got an eyey-opener when reading the book of John.So I kept-on with the KI;still refer to it.I also have the ‘Emphatic Diaglott’ by Benjamin Wilson,another Greek\English interlinear,that I like.
    The website the brother referred me to does show the many weaknesses of the Vatican no.1209,so now,I’m uncertain.This is why I’m still going to research this area.
    I was seriously researching the anointing of all Christian topic while I was a witness,and kept being drawn to the anointing scriptural referrences/explanations.This process,which many here are also doing is what led me to my real-life invitation from the Lord at Jehovah’s right hand.I have explained this several times on this site,and realize it is unprovable to others,yet,that is what makes it personal,and unknowable to anyone but the recipient.Yet my experience I will never be ashamed of,and like Paul’s it was a bolt out of the blue,which took me completely off guard.I hope all here can have some personalized testimony from the Lord as I had,but,it’s not for me to say this is a requirement for anointing.
    Like a brother said above,Paul decided to give his witness in one congregation where evidently there were some ‘Christians’that were eloquent speakers,and it seemed he was intimidated by their ability and/or his inability to the point where he said he would just show up and give the testimony about Christ and then there would be a demonstration of power to bolster his witness.Maybe when he got there he cured or resurrected someone(that would have done it!),then gave a simple{Tho I’ve never heard Paul say anything that wasn’t profound} speech about the Christ and the Good News.At any rate,I and others here have little or nothing by way of signs to prove we are new Apostles or prophets,so we all must just be disciples,correct?
    As we study here together,we can show by our knowledge of the TRUTH,and our burning hearts full of love and zeal to proclaim not our own interpretations,but the Lord’s meanings about the Gospel,that we really are born again… of the water(truth) and the Spirit.This is what we are all,without exception,I noted are in unity on this site at this time.Agreed? If we truly have the spirit of Christ,that is Jehovah has granted Him his own spirit,has given him all power in heaven and on earth,has given him life in himself,and states very plainly that these truths are the water that flows out of him that he is calling “living water”.This is emphasized again in the book of John at 4:24…we will now worship in spirit,and truth.Thus defining for us what he refused to plainly Tell Nicodemus,(sneeking around in the dark to tell Christ they ,the Pharisees,knew him to be a prophet from God).Not that he didn’t toughin up later.But the point was,if you are ashamed of Jesus and the truth,you aren’t going to be blessed with the full unfolding of truth from the Lord,doesn’t that make sense,too?
    I enjoy hearing comments of the strugglers about how they always took glory away from Christ,and insinuated they were the fountain of truth(the GB I mean).All on this site are sickened by this display in any form.That is yet another evidence of the upward call of Christ IMO.You begin to read the passages and see Christ’s intimate invitation is to you personally to come to him.Just go read some of sister Ruth’s passages if you want to see what I’m talking about.She’s on fire,and she’ll whack me for saying it,not to put you in any more danger,as Satan has EVERY ONE OF US HERE on his priority one hit list.We went thru a bad patch of bickering last week,it was obvious. But I know if we had a show of hands ,every one on this site….was praying for the Father to bring his Spirit in here for peace and unity.And our prayers were answered,and we’re back,with more love,now,and those of us that were proud were humbled…lessoned learned.This is yet another example of proof of being of the church of the firstborn.
    Anyway,my brothers and sisters,like sister Ruth said I wish we could congregate in a hall for group worship,and maybe sing songs of praise(Ican play guitar to the songs).And one bro.said we might can get on Skype and visit sometime.
    I have been loosely summarizing the 3-7th chapters of John in my big-mouth speech,sorry.I would like to start a forum on the gospel of John starting with chapter 1.I will post it tomorrow,God-willing,and hope others will give us all their thoughts.I would like to go through several of the chapters in John on the forum.It is one of the main things that I did,over and over that I believe,opened my eyes to the open invitation to all of us,I feel,to join in this unprecedented opportunity.I will say that I have no motive of revealing any new truths here,only the simple gospel.It can and hopefully will be a joint effort by many.I feel we are more than qualified on this very experienced and spirit-filled group to attempt to dispense the basic meaning of the invitation to heaven our Lord has extended at this time to us sleepers,Jehovah’s Witnesses.I strongly believe the time is NOW,that he has picked to wake up many,and bring them into his confidence, a modern miracle foretold(but not exclusively to JW’s)in Joel ch.2and Acts 2:17,18 Will you all please try it?


  27. Bro. Ed says:

    Brother John, I too have felt that Joel 2 and Acts 2:17,18 are as relevant today as they were back in the first century. I can’t believe that just before the Great Day of God the Almighty, things will be silent. I believe this gathering here is happening for a good reason and I feel, in my bones, that there are many others waking up and soon we will be joined by many other brothers and sisters from other religious organizations who have gotten out of Babylon. There just has to be a true Christian counter-part in these last days to the wicked “man of lawlessness” (irrespective of who or what he/they are).

    This is my personal opinion.

    Your brother in Christ

    Bro. Ed


  28. Disappointed says:

    Brother John.. your posts always make me smile! They are so lively and imaginative! You’re right about the arguing that goes on here occasionally, but didn’t Jesus own apostles bicker amongst themselves at times? Imagine the lesson he showed them.. their Lord and Master washing twelve pairs of hot, sweaty, dirty, smelly feet! A job a slave was to perform! How ashamed of themselves they must have felt!! He takes into account our ‘humanness’ and deals with us in a loving way when we step out of line and use our tongues (or in this case our fingers!)in a way that might hurt anothers feelings. The only apostle he rejected was the one who developed a wicked heart.The other dear brothers grew in spiritual maturity over time but still had moments of dispalying their imperfection. I think we can take great comfort from the fact that our Lord and Master doesn’t expect perfection from us either!


  29. DanielB says:

    On the subject of spiritual adulthood , we can draw from how things progress from childhood . A young child is first told what to do , and what not to do in simple terms , and as he grows he develops reasoning and conscience . The old repetition is no longer effective in molding the child’s spiritual thinking as it was earlier , and it might even stifle growth toward the liberating quality of the spiritual direction from God and his Word .

    ” For every person partaking of milk is really unfamiliar with the word of righteousness because they remain babies . However , solid nourishment belongs to mature persons , those who through use of their sensory organs have been trained like an athlete to be able to distinguish between what is good or bad . ” Heb. 5:13,14 (21st Version of the Christian Scriptures)

    This bible version comments on verse 14 : “The mature Christian does not need to always ask others what is right or wrong for they had studied the Bible well enough to know . This has some bearing on the conscience . ”

    I would like to interject here that our dear brother Mark Heber Miller , who published this recent version had died on September 7th , just 5 months ago .

    The Apostle continues concerning maturity at Hebrews 6:1-3 , ” Consequently , having left the basic teachings of the Christ , may we pass along to perfect maturity , not laying a foundation all over again of (“elementary principles”) – repentance from dead works , faith in God , teachings on baptisms , the laying on of hands , resurrection of the dead , and everlastion condemnation . And , indeed , this we shall do if the Supreme Deity permits . ” On ” passing along to perfect maturity ” , the commentary describes , ” The disciple is to strive for perfect , or mature growth , in relation to the ” doctrine of Christ ” .

    Paul speaks of the ” fullness in Christ ” to the Ephesian and to the Colossian brothers and sisters . To the Colossians , 1:19 reads ” For the (Supreme) God was very pleased to have the complete fulfillment (of His purpose) to reside in His Son . ” The NWT uses the term ” for all fullness to dwell in him ” . And this is the clincher for us as Christians in closeness to Jesus : 2:8-10 : ” Be alert so that no one takes you captive and carries you away like spoil through philosophy and hollow seduction . That is , something in accordance with human tradition or cosmic elemenal principles and not in harmony with Christ . Because in (Christ) is the indwelling of the embodiment of complete divinity . And all of you have life’s complete fulfillment in union with him – the One who is the Head of all government and authority . ”

    . . . – going from babes to Christ .

    Ah ! So good are the words of God !


  30. ruth says:

    Bro DanB!
    My heart rejoiced at your words.You have just said what l have been saying for so long. Except you said it so beautifully.
    Oh yes it is one huge hurdle when we see its about our Lord.

    Quote from Dan:
    Paul speaks of the ” fullness in Christ ” to the Ephesian and to the Colossian brothers and sisters . To the Colossians , 1:19 reads ” For the (Supreme) God was very pleased to have the complete fulfillment (of His purpose) to reside in His Son . ” The NWT uses the term ” for all fullness to dwell in him ” . And this is the clincher for us as Christians in closeness to Jesus : 2:8-10 : ” Be alert so that no one takes you captive and carries you away like spoil through philosophy and hollow seduction . That is , something in accordance with human tradition or cosmic elemenal principles and not in harmony with Christ . Because in (Christ) is the indwelling of the embodiment of complete divinity . And all of you have life’s complete fulfillment in union with him – the One who is the Head of all government and authority .

    Wow bro Dan! “You truly are a friend of out Lord and saviour
    You have encouraged my day. ”

    Love you Brother Sister Ruth


    • DanielB says:

      Thank you sister for the kind words and letting your excitement show . One but needs to peer into the true pure language and see that ” Every saying of God is refined . ” Those are the words that stir our hearts !
      Prov. 30:5,6


      • DanielB says:

        I should add , the word “refined” (above) is variously rendered : flawless , pure , tried , proven to be true . The NWT uses the word “refined” which seems to be a good call . At any rate , it is such an inviting thought that encourages us to ponder well all of the wonderful words that have all come to us through His Son .


  31. Willie says:

    The foremost consideration to remember in interpreting Scripture is the fact that God does not lie and the Bible doesn’t contradict itself. If it SEEMS to, then we are not taking into consideration either: (1) the person/persons being addressed or (2) the particular time-slot being referred to–past, present, or future. Who hasn’t heard, “The Bible is a fiddle on which ANY tune can be played”? Well, that is simply NOT true. The Bible HARMONIZES!

    As we study God’s Word and come to an understanding of His PLAN and PURPOSES, we become as qualified as the wisest interpreter in discerning the meaning of the Scriptures–IF the Holy Spirit is our guide. I agree with Greybeard who said, “There really is no 100% accurate Bible in my opinion.” All translations must be read with this in mind. Yes, God has allowed this situation, so that we WILL search the Scriptures using our concordances and other translations; we MUST STUDY to show ourselves “approved unto God,… rightly dividing the WORD OF TRUTH” (II Tim. 2:15).

    In reference to John 1:1, the Diaglott interlinear reads, “In a beginning was the Word [the Logos, an official title for the position of spokesperson for God Almighty], and the Word [the Logos] was with [since he was created by] the God [Almighty], and a god [a mighty one] was the Word [the Logos].” Being the spokesperson for God Almighty was a very high position. {My speculation is that this position of Logos or spokesperson was given to Gabriel when the great spirit being (Michael–IMO) was shrunk and changed into a fleshly embryo and placed in Mary’s womb as the babe Jesus, as we read in Matt. 1:21, “… and thou shall call his name JESUS….” I believe that since his resurrection Jesus is dealing with the instruction and discipline of the future Bride, the Church of the firstborn. As soon as the Church is complete I believe that Dan. 12:1 will take place. Did Jesus take back the position of “Logos”? I don’t know, but I think not, for I can’t see the wisdom of demoting Gabriel. Jesus was given a higher position in any case. (Heb. 1:1-9).

    Based on one’s understanding of Scripture, the first phrase of John 1:1, “In the [or a] beginning,” is similar to Gen. 1:1 which reads, “In the [a] beginning God created [began to re-arrange] the heaven [atmosphere around the planet earth] and the earth[‘s surface, which was covered by water].” Obviously, our part of the universe was already in place as we observe in Gen. 1:3-5;14-18. There have been many “beginnings” in infinity past for the different processes of God’s creations, but there has never been a “beginning” of God Almighty, the Creator as we read in Isa. 44:24, “… I am the LORD that maketh all things: that stretcheth forth the heavens ALONE; that spreadeth abroad the earth BY MYSELF.” [My CAPITAL emphasis throughout this comment.] Bear in mind that the Trinitarian translators are going to spin the Scriptures (John 1:1-3; Heb. 1:2, etc.) in order to say that JESUS is the creator for they believe that Jesus IS God. How much MORE reasonable and HONORING TO GOD is it to understand Heb. 1:1,2 to say: “God … Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed HEIR of all things, [and FOR] whom also he [GOD] made the worlds”–in accordance with the fifty-plus citations of the Old Testament.

    Trinitarians will challenge the reasoning and logic of those who differ with orthodoxy–those who are not Greek scholars and have no relevant college degrees; however, it is possible for the best Greek scholars to read the Bible and not understand it. Jesus nor the apostles ever attended any theological seminary and their credibility was challenged in their day. Ultimately, the Holy Spirit is our teacher–not institutions of higher learning. If confronted with John 1:1 by a Trinitarian, one could ask, “If God is the Word, how could He have a beginning”?

    Sister Willie


    • Bro. Ed says:

      Sister Willie, so I am clear of your understanding of the nature of Christ, before his incarnation and birth, it appears to me that you hold the belief that:
      1) He was created an angel
      2) His name was Michael
      3) He was made lower than the angels by his incarnation and birth as a human
      4) He was given the name Yeshua / Jesus
      5) He died, was resurrected to the right hand of God and in doing so was made greater than the angels.
      6) He assumed his original name Michael

      Is my understanding (albeit simplified) correct?

      Your brother in Christ

      Bro Ed


  32. John S. says:



  33. Willie says:

    Dear Br. Ed, Yes, you have gotten my understanding of the nature of Christ correct with the exception that I believe that Michael was not merely an angel, but was an ARCHANGEL. In fact, in my opinion, Michael and Lucifer were the first two sentient creations of God Almighty and I think that they both were created as archangels. The word archangel only appears twice in the KJV. The first time is in I Thess. 4:16 which says, “For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of THE archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first.” I don’t think anyone I know would deny that this citation is referring to Jesus. Jude 9 confirms that the archangel’s name is Michael: “Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil [Lucifer previously] he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord [God Almighty] rebuke thee.” God did intervene here between the two archangels [one fallen] and personally buried and thus hid the body of Moses (Deut. 34:5,6), so that Satan couldn’t make a fetish out of it. The fact that the voice in I Thessalonians is attributed to THE (singular) archangel seems to infer that at this point in time the other archangel, formerly know as Lucifer, had fallen from his esteemed position and thus we believe, for he had already orchestrated the death of Jesus on the cross and sealed his fate (Ezek. 28:18), which will be carried out after his final deception on the world mentioned in Rev. 20:7-10.

    In the Old Testament Daniel is our only source of information on Michael, here called a prince, considering that God Almighty was the King of the universe and Michael and Lucifer were the princes, the two highest in rank in the angel realm. After Lucifer fell (Ezek. 28:16) he is called by various names: Satan in Job 1:6; “leviathan” in Job 41:1, Psa. 104:26, and Isa. 27:1; King of Tyrus in Ezek. 28:12, “the anointed cherub that covereth” in Ezek. 28:14 and “prince of the kingdom of Persia” in Dan 10:13. Notice that the angel sent to Daniel (perhaps Gabriel) was no match for Satan as we read in Dan. 10:13, “But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days; but, lo, Michael, ONE of the CHIEF princes, came to help me….” After the angel had delivered the message to Daniel, the angel said, “… Knowest thou wherefore I come unto thee? and now will I return to fight with the prince of Persia; and when I am gone forth, lo, the prince of Grecia shall come. But I will show thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael YOUR prince” (Dan. 10:20,21). Daniel was a Jew and Michael was the prince of his people, the Jews, as we read in Dan. 12:1, “And at that time shall Michael stand up, the GREAT PRINCE which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.” We know that this event is future for vs. 2 says: “And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.”

    I believe that Michael and Lucifer are also referred to as “morning stars” in Job 38:7 where we read about the creation of the earth and the LORD asked Job beginning in verse 4: “Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth?… When the morning stars [Michael and Lucifer] sang together, and all the sons of God [the rest of the angelic host] shouted for joy?” A confirmation of this reasoning would be Isa. 14:12-17 where we begin to read in verse 12: “How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning!….” In Rev. 2:24-28 Jesus is speaking to the church at Thyatira and says, “But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan … Hold fast till I come. And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations [Psa. 149:5-9] : And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers; even as I received of my Father. [Psa. 2:8,9.] And I will give him the morning star.” At this point in time there is only ONE morning star and I believe that this means that those overcomers will be a part of the body of Christ, the remaining morning star as we read in Rev. 22:16 where Jesus says, “…I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and MORNING STAR.”

    At the age of twelve Jesus had asked, “… wist ye not that I must be about my Father’s business?” (Luke 2:49); thus we can be sure that his parents, particularly Mary, had taught him about his miraculous birth and that he was the promised Messiah for his people; however, I do not believe that Jesus had any recollection of his previous life in heaven until he was baptized in the river Jordan at the age of thirty–the point at which he made his personal consecration to God. Thirty was the required age before any Israelite could enter the priesthood and was evidently considered the proper age for Jesus’ consecration (to the Melchizedek priesthood?). His subsequent journey into the wilderness for forty days and nights was to sort out the overwhelming flood of knowledge of his previous life with his Father in heaven and, additionally, the planning of how to execute his earthly assignment, to choose his disciples, etc. It is my opinion that Michael volunteered, while a resident of heaven, to be the ransom price for Adam.

    In Rev. 12:7 we read, “And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon fought and his angels.” Many of those who believe that Jesus WAS Michael are confused by this verse, but a little analyzing reminds one that God has never allowed war in his heavenly abode–the first “heaven” which comes to mind when “heaven” is mentioned. If spirit beings were the only ones involved then the atmosphere of Earth could be the “heaven” referred to. But no. The most logical “heaven” turns out to be the ecclesiastical “heaven” on earth and this Michael is the false Michael, the little horn of Dan. 7:8 which grew into the papal office/the “Holy See”–a force so powerful that it subdued the civil governments (the dragon), crowned and dethroned kings, and ruled with a rod of iron as the Kingdom of God for a thousand years from 799 till 1799. Revelation in written in sign language (Rev. 1:1) to obscure it’s message until the time of the end which has arrived at last.

    Thank you for asking,
    Sister Willie


  34. ruth says:

    Your not leaving are you?
    Sister Ruth.


  35. DanielB says:

    Dear Ruth , thank you for asking . No , I enjoy having spiritual contact here . Part of this is that I have interest in watching and seeing ; and there is the really fine aspect : ” . . earnestly endeavoring to observe the oneness of the spirit , in the uniting bond of peace . ” Eph. 4:1-6

    Most here are in the same “camp” together , and that is a very good thing .

    Much love to you all . . .


  36. ruth says:

    Dear bro DanialB.
    I’m so pleased you are staying here. As for me circumstances are moving me on to different things I must now concentrate on.
    Hope everyone dreams come true.

    Lots of love to you all.
    Ruth (Patricia)


  37. DanielB says:

    May Jehowah bless you Sister , and keep you close . Thank you for your many words of encouragement ; . . . until we meet again –


  38. AwareBeing says:

    Dear Andrew;

    Your article here shows that a lot of us have taken “the leap of faith” out of religion’s clutches and into the Father’s loving arms! It also takes bravery to stand up against untruth; especially when faced by a loud bully. My sincere desire is that people here may distinguish God’s word and will over that of men.

    Your loving Neighbor; A.B.


  39. DanielB says:

    . . . excuse me please . . . I was too quick to edit . that’s “Yehowah” . (On His name) :


  40. DanielB says:

    On this subject of Spiritual Adulthood , I see a need to add a few things .

    In the early 1970s a Brother Dixon who taught an early Kingdom Ministry School for brothers who were part of the new elder arrangement made an illustration about “maturity” , which was in my opinion a simple yet correct common sense illustration . It went like this :

    People are much like fruit on a tree . And so it is important that we are not hasty in judging them . The point of his illustration was concerning the tendency to easily judge people . Fruit on a tree is first of all immature until it ripens ( matures , like into it’s adulthood ) . Then it becomes ripe and desireable for picking , as a Christian becomes mature and acceptable for the harvest . Then there is fruit that stays on the tree too long or becomes diseased and what happens to it ? It becomes rotten , doesn’t it ? And so the point of the illustration was his effort to help one to be careful in how we view others . It would be easy for us with our limited powers of judging the fruit shown by others to conclude that someone is rotten , when what we are seeing about them is just immaturity .

    What I have noticed is this : Sometimes though , it really does become obvious to us that rottenness has set in . If our powers of perception are well trained , we may come to see the point of Jesus’ warning : ” Be on the watch for the false prophets that come to you in sheep’s covering , but inside they are ravenous wolves . By their fruits you will recognize them . ” Matthew 7:15

    Recently , someone postured in to this association that we peacefully have here , making unfounded accusations and using words like ” hypocricy ” , while his spiritual vision was myopic (nearsighted) , and he was wearing his organizational religious glasses . I don’t know just how immature he was , but any serious judgment for this intrusion rests in the hands of our Master and perfector of our faith .

    We must use good judgment through life , it is true . Though when it comes to ” judging ” others in the sense that we are being taught about in God’s word , such judging carries the sense of considering another unworthy of life . And this is where we ought to be careful not to overstep in a fit of anger and hurt . And when we come from a group that tends to kick others to the curb , our chagrin may carry us too far .

    Coil up into the loving arms of our big Brother then , and ” wait on Yehowah ” .

    Some would have us discouraged here , thinking that we are going against the direction that comes down to us through God’s Son , Jesus . Some realize though that we really do have enough liberty to visit here and read comments and express ourselves . It mainly depends upon who is really our Master .

    I hope that any here who are attacked as I just described do not become overly saddened and downhearted . This association has proved to be upbuilding and constructive for the large number . I for one see many ” desirable things of the nations ” here for association . And I know they are welcome to come into this place at least . Haggai 2:7

    Another thing that was being said by the intruder was in effect , ” Your efforts and mood here indicates that you all have become shipwrecked in your faith ! ” Well , notice how that Paul was making the point to Timothy that he should resist blasphemous talk by some and keep on waging ” fine warfare ” , ” holding faith and a good conscience ” , in the face of blasphemous attacks , at 1 Timothy 1:18-20 .

    I thank you JJ and the others here who are so encouraging and upbuilding . We love you dearly .


  41. John S says:

    Sister Ruth,

    Why leave now,when we are going into the simple gospel,just as we have been preaching about?Your view is always appreciated,along with encouragement and comfort.Do you feel unloved or overrun by something I stated about my desire to expand on the Lord’s words? No need to,really,as I am merely going to repeat and analyze what is there.I hope you join in on this effort of ours to study the “Gospel of John” in some small detail.Some things to think about today;


    “FOR SALE…one human race…
    Future expansion…unlimited
    Get in on grass roots beginnings of a golden opportunity,fabulous wealth,fun,immeasurable prospects for learning,purposeful livelihood and learning.
    Large talented eager labor pool,willing to work all hours,ready to please…”

    Is this possibly the advertisement in the ‘Heavenly Times’ newspaper after Adam and Eve had sold the human race into sin and death?Was the human family ‘up for grabs’?Did Jehovah our Father put us on the auction block to be viewed by his created beings,the angels,as for sale like the poor slaves were sold in Louisiana for decades?Did an angel,….Michael,buy the human race for himself,by his own design,initiative,trading his spirit life for a human’s and come down here and snag the ‘Deal of a Lifetime’!!….?

    on the other hand……

    Did our Father,the Almighty Jehovah,the Creator,with no beginning or end,who is made up of total energy,and power,decide to come down to earth to give an explanation of who he was,and the only way he could do this,was to invent a character who the human family could relate to,speak with,and learn from,on their level,as a fellow human;the ‘Word’…?

    Why do I say these things?I have been talking on this site for several months,now,and have heard expressions like these as beliefs about these Bible topics.In the blog’Gospel of John;open Discussion’,we will consider these and other views today in looking at Chapter 1.Will you please consider this site and feel free to connect and interact.There will be comments given from other contributors and I do appreciate these.Now;to the ‘Forum’-


  42. Bro. Ed says:

    Brother John, I spoke on the phone with sister Ruth the other day and I certainly didn’t get any feeling that she was disheartened by her participation here. She is a very spiritually mature person who loves working for our Lord. And that’s more to the point of her wanting to focus on her ministry elsewhere, at least that’s my impression. I hope she will still come here as often as her time permits. She is actively proclaiming the Gospel of Christ in and around her hometown and this is taking her in a wonderful new direction.

    Your brother in Christ

    Bro Ed


  43. John S says:

    Bro.Ed,I thank you for that.I know how strong we are for the truth to told about Jesus’ identity,Lordship,sacrifice,kingdom,and on and on.Because there is so much ground to cover just on the basics,let alone Messianic prophesies,types,(book of Hebrews),and of course Daniel and Revelation,I felt it a long-overdue mission of ours to get down to it,and don’t just talk about it .A couple of others were more than ready to participate,so here we go.I do wish you would pursue your heart’s desire to publish your thoughts on your forte’.(gift)Amos,and Andrew,or anyone.I will attempt some more now on the forum,although I posted this a.m.,but don’t know if it went through,might be being analyzed for content.To me,while there is still time,I will speak on the things the so-called anointed at Bethel,for one reason or another,either don’t know,or are trying to hide,concerning the Master’s invitation to receive the water of life,and have life in themselves.(John4:14)


  44. JJ says:

    Thank you brother John for fueling many of these scriptural discussions. It is as Philippians says:

    “Finally, brothers, whatever things are true, whatever things are of serious concern, whatever things are righteous, whatever things are chaste, whatever things are lovable, whatever things are well spoken of, whatever virtue there is and whatever praiseworthy thing there is, continue considering these things.” (Philippians 4:8)

    Occupying ourselves in study and fellowship on the Word of God is one of the most positive things we could be doing!


  45. Justice Boseka says:

    I like it but I cannot download it. i do not know how brothers


  46. whateverhappenedtome says:

    hello everyone,
    I have been a lurker here for quiet sometime now and as much as I would like to comment on every article and discussions I’ve read, my mind just get filled with so much words….they become too many to express that i just break down into tears….take a deep breath and again and again try to reposition my mind, questioning my own self if my presence here is really a good idea for my current spiritual sickness.

    It was sooo difficult to admit I am having spiritual doubts…God knows how much I’ve tried to put them off my mind……I guess I’ve given up and now I am taking a lot of courage to say what I have to say. To realize that i am not alone in my struggle is a comforting reminder, eventhough things on here are so painful to read….so painful to know…and i guess is coz they’re indeed true.


  47. Disappointed says:

    Welcome whateverhappenedtome. Please don’t feel you have a spiritual sickness. You are merely waking up to an unpleasant fact… as we all have here… that the things we have been taught are not the complete truth. One thing comes upon us after another and it shakes our very foundations. It’s as if we have to start all over again to find our way. We are all finding that it is Jesus Christ who is the Way and not any man-made organisation. He is the Way to our heavenly Father Jehovah and not man. Have you read the book Crisis of Conscience by Ray Franz? It is an eye opening book and helps to understand why all these doubts we have inside us are there. If you want to read it, it s in PDF form on here under the links section ‘sites worth visiting’ (and books of interest) in the column on the right hand side. Remember you are not alone in this!


  48. v says:

    Hi I’m Ruth.
    I read your post and what you said brought such memories back to my mind. When those doubts starting flooding in it felt to me like l was betraying Jehovah. l remember praying over something l saw was so wrong in the organisation. Please father l said. If this not your organisation please tell me. I was feeling so dreadful even to mutter those little words.

    Anyway, sitting at my computer opening my bible l read Romans chapter 8:1
    There fore those in Jesus Christ have no condemnation for the law of the spirit which gives life in Jesus Christ has set you free from the law of sin and death.

    I realised It said. Those in Jesus Christ! Not Jehovah. I was over joyed. l realised what that meant.
    Jesus is the way the truth and the life. No where else do we go. Its to him! Not to a religion! To him.
    The father showed me that very night if l followed his son l was of death row. Jesus had indeed set me free. The father has handed all authority in his hands. What a wonderful revelation!
    To this day he has taught me so much. Made lots of mistakes along the way. But on the other hand still trying to please our dear heavenly father (with out) an organisation.


  49. v says:

    Dear Friends of our Lord and his Father.

    Please have a look at how people from all walks of life are being called from religion into the arms of the Son of God.


  50. andrew says:

    Welcome, whateverhappenedtome.

    I know what you are experiencing. When you begin to realize all is not right in the organization it can be very scary and intimidating, especially if you have been a JW your whole life.

    The first step is to educate yourself. I would recommend also Crisis of Conscience. You may also want to check out


  51. DanielB says:

    Sister V (Ruth) , I thoroughly enjoyed the experience that you provided the link to ! I hope all of you here will read it . It is so reassuring to see what marvelous things are going on around us , and ways in which God’s Son is active even now .

    May we all draw closer to him , and in him .


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