Can Watchtower training make elders mindreaders?
I most certainly cannot read your mind, and it’s likely that no one else on earth can either. However, if you happen to be seeking reinstatement into a congregation of Jehovah’s Witnesses and are here on JWStruggle reading an article like this, then it becomes quite easy to guess what’s on your mind: You have begun to awaken to the serious problems within the Watchtower Organization and religion, and you are thinking about how to get reinstated so as to again have access to asleep JW family members and friends. We here at the Struggle “get it”, and you are not alone. In fact our good friend Londo (who wrote the article The Myths of Disfellowshipping) successfully gained reinstatement recently for that very reason, and his experience and impressions will be shared in a later portion of the article. To be sure though, the elders that sit in judgement when a person seeks reinstatement can’t read minds either. Nor can they read a person’s heart.
So to delve into the meat of this topic then, we first wonder how many brothers and sisters that have been shunned and cast out of a Jehovah’s Witness congregation are seeking reinstatement? How many thousands are currently right now seeking to regain their former status? A simple estimate can be made from published statistics which are freely available through Watchtower literature. These tell us:
• About 70,000 are disfellowshiped every year.
• About 1/3 of that number eventually gain their membership status back.
• This means that an estimated 23,000 individuals annually get reinstated.
One brother told me that he never would have done an internet search while he was in “good standing” in the congregation, but once he was disfellowshiped and hurting terribly he decided to do some keyword searches to see what had been hidden from him. After he typed in terms such as “Watchtower Society”, “Jehovah’s Witnesses”, etc. He quickly found links to two books: Crisis of Conscience by Raymond Franz, and Captives of a Concept by Don Cameron. (If you have not yet read these books do so as soon as possible, especially with regard to the former) They helped him immensely on his path to reinstatement, but also most importantly they helped him gain spiritual liberation from the Watchtower Society.
Again we seek to whittle this number down: So out of this 23,000 or so brothers and sisters there are a percentage that have mustered up the courage to search and research Jehovah’s Witnesses, and so have awakened to TTATT. They now know that the Watchtower leadership is a man-made organization and cannot possibly have God’s exclusive backing. They also know that JW.org is not the only website where they can get information on the activities and beliefs of Jehovah’s Witnesses. Honest, objective research is part of the key that will help a person unravel all the disparate ideas and thoughts in their head at this time. Go on the offensive if you have not already; study The Truth About The Truth as it is so imperative!
Let’s stop now for a moment and reflect on the plight these ones find themselves in. Their friends and family members are virtually dead to them. Their entire support system has been destroyed. Most are still mentally veiled (2 Corinthians 4:3-4) when it comes to the truth about our Lord Jesus and how HE is their true mediator, not the eight men of the Governing Body located in Patterson, New York. They have been tossed and thrown about like sheep without a shepherd and are hurting. (Matthew 9:36) In addition to this, month after month they attend Kingdom Hall meetings silently, arriving right when it starts, and leaving immediately afterward, and are ignored and treated as if they were invisible by virtually all the congregation members.
After many months or even a year or more they may meet with the elders, oftentimes only to be told that they need to “wait on Jehovah” even longer. They may be told that they need to “look more repentant” or that they have to accept their discipline, attend more meetings, etc. Or even worse, they may not receive a response at all for weeks and even months at a time because the elders get busy or simply forget about their request. This occurred on more than one occasion in the years I served as an elder. We would contact a previous judicial committee from the congregation that the disfellowshiped person had been from, and it might be weeks or more before they ever get back to us. In the meantime the disfellowshiped person is in mental agony, on pins and needles waiting to hear some news. Sometimes we had to call them again and remind them that they had not given us a decision yet, since WT policy states that only the original committee has the authority to reinstate a person even if they have moved to the other side of the country and attend meetings somewhere else. If all of the original three elders have died or are no longer serving as elders in that congregation, then three new elders are chosen by the elder body- ones that may not have ever even met the person seeking reinstatement. And they are the ones that decide if the person should be let back in or not, sight unseen!
Brother Londo experienced an entire gamut of feelings and frustrations in going through this long and ardous process. He was gracious enough to answer some questions I put to him about his experience and share his feelings and testimony of what it was like enduring this trial with us:
—————————————————————————–
I used to believe the disfellowshiped had it easy…all they had to do was come and attend the meeting for a few months. How difficult is that? Well, it turns out: Very! What an utter lack of empathy I had back then.
After my appeal failed and the decision was made final, I attended one meeting, about a week before the announcement. The elders who were cruel and merciless in my judicial committee got up on stage and acted all lubby-dubby—this dichotomy made it difficult to bear their talks. I’ve fought with extreme social anxiety for years and I envisioned myself coming into this throng, week in and week out: a pariah, a leper, pondscum, all alone. I said to myself over and over, “I can’t do this.” I shook and sweated and trembled—it was a panic attack. So it was a long, long time before I could go back to that Hall.
Isaiah 32:2 says, “And each one must prove to be like a hiding place from the wind and a place of concealment from the rainstorm, like streams of water in a waterless country, like the shadow of a heavy crag in an exhausted land.”But these three men had exposed me to the elements and took away the very support system I needed most. They had hearts of steel and heads as thick as granite.
I had come to the elders for spiritual help and they destroyed my faith. I couldn’t even look at the Bible. I lived my judicial committee over and over again. At times, I thought about death. I sympathize with anyone who has PTSD, because I believe I had a mild form, for the experience left me with psychological trauma. Besides, I was a functional agnostic and could not in good conscience seek reinstatement, because my indoctrination said it would be for the “wrong reasons”.
It took me nine months to get back on the path to reinstatement. Once I learned the truth about the truth and had a burning desire to share what I knew, I no longer saw any hindrance. I had been deceived for many years, kept under mind control, and therefore, my path to reinstatement would be one of “theocratic warfare”. After all, I was repentant for what I had done…this is the reason I came to the elders and confessed in the first place. I could honestly say, “I repent!” With renewed faith and the Lord as my helper, I could face the challenge.
During the interim, I helped my ex-wife, who was also disfellowshiped, learn TTATT. She got reinstated soon after I started the process and she would on occasion attend meetings with me and that did much to ease some of the anxiety of entering into the Hall.
Being a disfellowshiped person entering and exiting the meeting is a production. Often I would sit in the parking lot and time things just right so I could come in during the song, and then I would leave during the final verse of the song. Sometimes I would sit in the lobby. It was very nerve-wracking and sometimes my anxiety got the better of me.
It needs to be understood there IS a minimum sentence that nearly all disfellowshiped persons must serve: a year. And it seems that to get reinstated, there is a minimum of six months of meeting attendance. It is not based on repentance. Nor is there any sort of “extra credit” or begging that can speed up the process. Circuit overseers have been known to berate a body of elders for letting a person in too soon and “making a mockery of the judicial system.”
It was encouraged for me to write a request for reinstatement every three months, but when I did, the elders were not in much of a hurry to respond. Unlike Ezekiel’s Celestial Chariot, the wheels of this bureaucracy move real slow.
The first time I sat down with the elders was mind boggling. They never once opened the Bible. I began to detail my repentance and I talked about the Prodigal Son, I talked the about need for a support system and about Zacchaeus in the sycamore tree and how all the shunning of the Pharisees hadn’t helped him repent, but all it took was for Jesus to sit down and eat with him, and he turned his life around. They said, “Understand, this is what we are told to do. You don’t have to agree with it. Just understand. Try again in three months.”
A month after my second letter and more prodding, they sat down with me. They said they noticed how downcast I was at the meetings and read Hebrews 12:12, 13. They said a repentant person was not like this. Basically, they said I was too sad to be repentant.
Finally, all three of them sat down with me and told me they decided it was time for reinstatement. The night before the announcement, they had another quick meeting before the book study, in which they reviewed what I had to do to get my “privileges” back and so forth.
But during the book study, they tapped me on the shoulder and had me come back in. They began to tell me that they noticed my ex-wife was sitting with me and since I’m still technically disfellowshiped that gave the wrong appearance. During the first reinstatement check-in, they thought that her sitting beside me was a good thing, now they tell me it was not. I told them I could move. They said, “Well, that ship has sailed. Some observed that the two of you were talking during the meeting.” I truthfully denied that. They said, “You need to be mindful of appearances!”
So I went back to my seat but moved one space down from my ex-wife. Five minutes later, they tapped me on the shoulder again and called me in back. They said, “Where does your ex-wife live?” I said, “With her mother.” They said, “Well her records just arrived and they have your address and we asked her where she lived before the meeting she said, ‘Off of so-and-so road’—you live off of so-and-so road!” I told them, “She obviously forgot to update her address from years back and she lives only five minutes away.” The three continued to interrogate me and I said, “Where is this coming from? Why are you doing this?” Eventually the line of questions came to an end and they told me that two of them would question her after the meeting, which they did.
I did get reinstated that night…but this type of interrogation showed me how unwelcome I was, how I would be under constant scrutiny. So I transferred to another congregation and began to attend there.
The cliché is that you can never go home again—and I feel that is very true. Those that were very close friends kept me at arm’s length. Rather than rejoicing that the Prodigal Son was back, they treated me as though I was still a leper. All the assurances that they would be there when I returned were shown to be a lie. When I finally got some honesty around this, my former best friend said, “You have a tainted legacy.”
At that point, I saw no need to attend the meetings any longer. I still associate with family, but the mindset between Christianity and the Watchtower theology are too huge of a gulf sometimes. Sometimes I can’t hold it in and say things that alarm my family. I haven’t told them I no longer attend meetings, but they seem to suspect. I try to be as honest as possible, but I don’t always reveal everything to them. To do so would be to say goodbye.
I have learned that talking to a JW about TTATT is like disarming a bomb. If you pull the wrong wire, it will explode. Once exploded, the bomb can never unexplode. It is a stressful thing to associate with JWs and I find it often exposes my heart to a lot of pain. It is a constant struggle.
As Steven Hassan says about high control groups, “There is no honorable way to walk away…” And he also details how records of past sins can be used to manipulate and control a person…there is never really any forgiveness or absolution because it is never forgiven or forgotten.
Many are able to move on with their lives and be able to forget this organization—and good for them. But I have to say: they are holding my family and former friends hostage in mind and heart. I don’t envision myself moving on until they are free. If a dictatorship were holding your loved ones hostage, would you not constantly research everything you could about this dictatorship, and try to find a way to free them? Would you not eagerly look for signs of that regime’s collapse, however false those signs might be, so you could have them back?
Reinstatement might treat some of the symptoms, but it is certainly not a cure. It is sort of like Frodo (From Tolkien’s book trilogy Lord of The Rings) returning to the Shire. He has gone through a life-changing, harrowing experience and to be really cured of his suffering and move on he has to leave his home forever and go to the Grey Havens, setting sail for a faraway land. Similarly, we may go “there and back again”, but our former spiritual home may not be able to contain nor comfort us ever again.
Christ will one day lead us Home and cure us of all the maladies of this life. In the meantime, we need to seek Him to be able to cope. He was betrayed by a close companion, his friends forsook him—so he has been there, he can identify.
Even if our friends betray us, forsake us, and break all bonds of fellowship, Christ will be our eternal Friend. He will be a “Light to you in dark places, when all other lights go out.”
-As related by Brother Londo
—————————————————————————–
Part Two of this article will delve into the nuts and bolts of getting reinstated, giving as much practical advice on speeding up the process and successfully accomplishing it as possible. Also the article will delve into the anatomy of a reinstatement hearing. Points planned include:
• How and when to write a request for reinstatement
• Managing your expectations, as they are the key to keeping your calm and your sanity
• What to say, and what not to say to the elders
• What the elder’s handbook Shepherding The Flock tells elders to look for when gauging repentance
Additionally, highlights of a transcript from an actual reinstatement hearing will be shared, and the recorded audio will be posted on YouTube, including what the elders said in deliberation when the person was dismissed from the room. I am in contact with the sister that is currently enduring the reinstatement process with the hope of regaining a relationship with her family members. She has bravely decided to document this journey so as to protect herself and also to help others that are enduring this cruel, arbitrary process.
In the meantime, to close this consideration for now let’s pray for all the ones suffering at the hands of this harsh Watchtower policy:
Our God and Father we ask that you watch over those that have been cast out of the Jehovah’s Witnesses and are hurting. Please be with those that are suffering loneliness and feelings of abandonment. Perhaps they have lost faith or sinned in some way due to weakness. Forgive their lapses and reward their effort to regain normalcy. May they find comfort and solace in your loving care. Bless their efforts to move forward with their life no matter what obstacles they encounter.
Lord if they feel guided to seek reinstatement so they can see their grandchildren or siblings or other family members or friends give them the courage and the strength that they need to endure this trial and succeed. May we as fellow Strugglers give them our prayers and our positive words as “apples of gold in silver carvings” to aid them in their effort. We love you Lord and we thank you for your King and our Judge Christ Jesus.
Amen!
Tags: disfellowshipping, elders, JW.org, reinstated, reinstatement, TTATT
I have never been dfd but i have sinned long ago when i was inactive, I have seen the suffering of the poor sheep who are still in the indoctrinated state of mind to get back who are sad because the harsh shunning, if you are in the “in club” i have seen em reinstate these people in 8 months without showing true remorse, and those that are not in the club, those who were not liked or envied before they were dfd can wait and wait and they have repented however i have seen the times it is done just for the pleasure to have power over this person. I have seen those that eventually give up and just no longer have any interest in spiritual things and do as they please and others that no longer plan on coming back who are in a sort of limbo still in that indoctrinated state of mind (not celebrating holidays and etc. And do not live inmoral lives n
C M(Quote)
and etc.) but they still are victims of the shunning and have no contact with their families and those that were close to them, they see that love was a lie and conditional. And those that do return that were not in the “club” still get shunned and either become inactive or move away and attend a new cong. I saw a movie years ago its on youtube its called worlds apart a movie based on a true story filmed in denmark it definately caught my attention however the week after i was named a MS and till 18 months ago i saw it again while i was teating my faith and it shows alot of what we have seen and felt and soeak of all the time. James 4:11 & 12 state there is only one judge and law maker and we are no one to judge anothr person. Ezekiel 34:4 speaks against those who use their authority to hurt instead of helping those in need. I too have only stayed around to help others and have started with a few but i know TTATT and do not want any priveleges and cannot consciensly preach a lie door to door they have no power over us my friends let us all rise and help others awaken we cannot even imagine how many of us are there. May Jehovah God bless our work and help us with our struggle.
Your Brother and Friend C M
C M(Quote)
Thanks for that Brother JJ. Extremely important subject. “Well done!
Londo! What a dreadful time for you. There are brothers here who the elders have treated so badly accusing them of things that never even happened.
“Of cause in the bargain some loose there family! Especially the children. “Goodness you all need so much comfort. So much love and understanding.
The Devil puts the boot in all right. “One heck of a roaring Lion.”
l honestly know so many of us are alive only because Jesus and Father has helped us through.
Yet are we through?
l don’t believe we are. Mistrust of each other is so evident! Anger bitterness. Mostly because of such bad treatment from the W/Tower society. Trying to find the right mediumn as we go along.
WE were taught such BAD HABITS!
l remember quite a few Elders who were so loving soft and like our Lord. “Were they appreciated?
You can bet London to a brick they were not even noticed.
Ruth
Ruth(Quote)
Amen!
Excellent article yet again bro. JJ. Even though I’ve not been in that terrible place I can understand well the feeling of being kept hostage and having my family and friends held hostage.
Bro Londo… your experience makes me think of these verses…
“Then he said to his disciples: “It is unavoidable that causes for stumbling should come. Nevertheless, woe to the one through whom they come.It would be of more advantage to him if a millstone were suspended from his neck and he were thrown into the sea than for him to stumble one of these little ones. Pay attention to yourselves.
“If your brother commits a sin give him a rebuke, and if he repents, forgive him. Even if he sins seven times a day against you and he comes back to you seven times saying ‘I repent,’ you must forgive him.” Luke 17:1-4 (NWT)
Anonymous(Quote)
Sorry! I’m the ‘Anonymous’ post!
Disappointed(Quote)
The Organization has stumbled so many from believing in our heavenly Father, his Son, and many no longer see value in Scripture, rather feel it’s a source of evil. I can empathize because I felt that way for a time. For so long, this Organization has misused Scripture, and while giving lip service to God being love, portrays him as a cruel, bloodthirsty tyrant who is always displeased with the quality and quantity of our service, as well as not measuring up to the laundry list of endless rules.
People become like the God they worship…these men opened a window for me, and I saw right into the Organization’s heart. Not matter the outside appearance, inside it ws full of loathsome things.
In the end though, I might one day think these three men for helping me wake up to TTATT. I couldn’t have done it without their help.
Londo(Quote)
Anonymous is so Disappointed!
Ruth(Quote)
Thank you JJ, for another timely ,article, with the wisdom of the bible written all over it.
I remember I went thought the “process” of all that London talked about, the pain, trauma, suicidal , thoughts, separation, etc. Even thought I did nothing morally wrong, because I wear my hair in dread, I was accused of causing all kinds of problems in the KH. I had shown from the bible, there is nothing wrong with dreadlock, and ironically, months after, my bogus DF’g, I found pictures of black women wearing dreads, one was a artist depiction of paradise with a girl with dreads, so I knew it was for other man made reasons I was put out. After major grieving, it all made sense, Jehovah was trying to protect me spiritually, and get me out of the way safely, when the judgement starts with the “house of God” first, which was something I was always aware of because of being a student of the bible since the 60’s. There was a time , when God’s people, proved worse than the nation, and last time I checked, there is no paradise yet or return of Christ, and the bible clearly shows there is some major housecleaning coming up, and I don’t want to be around, when the mud hits the fan. So I’ll return when the toilets are cleaned.
As far as past friends, and a single family member left behind, I rely on Jah to protect that one, just like he did for me. Jehovah and Christ are experts when it comes to saving the gold out of the dross.
Freethinkerinjah(Quote)
This is my definition of disfellowshipping and reinstatement
Disfellowshipping means departing from fellow shipping with spritiual dysfunctional fellows and a dysfunctional religious organization. Reinstatement, is restating one dedication to Worship solely Jehovah, and accepting his son’s grace and forgiveness of our sins without being a slave to man, and the only mediator is Christ, which is what God meant for us. “restatement”.
Freethinkerinjah(Quote)
An online friend of mine, Sister Bridet (aka Aunt Bee) said:
“A great article would be researching ‘shunning’ in the earliest church history there is. From what i’ve read, there was no such thing. Only ‘ex-communication’, the person would be dismissed with the catechumens when they came to the Eucharist part of the service. That’s about it. And of course there’s no such thing as ‘disciplining ‘ or ‘shunning’ people who choose to not be part of the church”
Londo(Quote)
I’m confused about how a person who is D’fwshpd and comes here and exposes WT lies, and mistreatment, and goes online worldwide, punching holes in WT, and then go into a judicial hearing with the elders of a Jehovah’s Witness religion and says he’s ‘repentant’, and wants the ‘Brothers’ to forgive him, and accept him back into the religion? And what if he joins another church, or attends other churches, worships the doctrines the way JW’s don’t, and yet is still pretending he’s a good JW?
Really…is this hypocrisy being recommended, as a way to “reach” your relatives with the ‘Truth’! The whole affair is LYING. How much ‘truth’ are you showing your relatives, and what happens when the elders that allow you back into the fold find out you are a spy?
This will come out in the WT, in the study issues . It will be a warning to all 7 million of a new apostacy tactic, underhand, and will bring worse lock-down on the whole problem. Think before you encourage such actions.
John S(Quote)
John
First off brother It’s nice to hear from you on here. Your comments and participation have been missed! I hope that the Lord is blessing you in all your endeavors.
As for the reason that some try and get back in, it is for the sake of their families that some want to do this. And in some cases their very emotional and mental health and well being are at stake as you well know.
While I would never in a million years personally consider seeking reinstatement myself, I do not and cannot condemn any that after prayer and reflection feel that they need to do this. How do we know that this isn’t God’s Holy Spirit impelling them so that they might reach one of their family members with TTATT and save them from WT ignorance and enslavement? Unless we walk a mile in their mocassins how could we ever know? This is a question that I ask in sincerity that gives me pause when tempted to jump to a quick decision on someone else’s action.
In Christ,
Eric
JJ(Quote)
London, good point.
I hope every one understood that my definition of DF ‘g was a play on words and a way of showing the sanity and fiction of DF’ing and that it was a blessing to me .
Freethinkerinjah(Quote)
Oh i see what you mean Freethinkerinjah correct me if I am wrong, when you and many of our friends were disfellowshipped you were set free from the watchtower and now that you know TTATT you no longer are a slave to man and whether people decide to get reinstated or not you are free and truly do God’s will and follow in Jesus’ footsteps as True Christians should. Am I correct?
C M(Quote)
Its been 10 years since my second disfellowshiping. I have never gotten over the pain and loss. Very large and close family may as well all have died. My husband and children will never get to know any of my family the way i loved and cherished them. You can never explain to your kids that mommy loved her family so much but can no longer see them because they are brain washed and they still love them and it make sense. It don’t even make sense to me and i have had 28 years of living it. I have felt hate, sorrow, anger, envy. I have had to relearn to love, think, forgive, teach, feel and more recent believe in god and pray(not easy). Never give up on your lost family and the hope that they will see the real truth. But just make sure you don’t lose who you are and who you want to be by trying to stay in there life because in most cases they will always pick the organizations because that is (in there mind) there only hope. And in the new world Jehovah will make it so they will forget the pain of your sins. I will never give up hope and pray for a change. And maybe one day i will. But i had to except that i may only get to see them in heaven to move on and let myself be happy again. I hope you and everyone else dealing with the hurt and anxiety of the loss of family find peace and a chanch to be happy with out guilt.
Tracy(Quote)
Tracy
You are a precious child of God as are the rest of us and my heart goes out to you in the suffering that you have undergone. Welcome to the “Struggler’s Site” where we as fading JWs and former JWs can come together to safely talk about our experiences and sort it all out.
Continue to pray for change and keep your hope strong sister. There are so many of us that have been called to speak out against the Watchtower that it reminds me of what Jesus said about the stones crying out!
Your Brother,
Eric aka JJ
JJ(Quote)
hi tracy, hang in there. it takes a loooot of courage to be where you are now….
the org usually qoute Jesus when he said he came “to cause divisions among families” and use this very same text to encourage those who left a religion to become jws. the way i see it now, when Jesus said that he refered to himself as the one causing division among families and whosoever has more affection for his family than for Christ is not worthy of him. guess what, with the org, its the org that’s really causing the divisions and not christ. what do u think?
warm regards..
whateverhappenedtome(Quote)
My JW EX- husband comitted adultery several times while I was still married with him When I brought that to the elders attention they said they dont have enough evidence to dfd. him. Because he was part of the click. I finally got a private investigator to prove his alduterous acts. The elders were angry at me. because they simply did not want to dfd. him. beause he was the elders close friends. when the circuit overseer came i submit my complaint to him. within a week he was dfd.Then he got reinstated in less than six months. When I look at my own story within this organisation Icame to one conclusion. WTS does not have Jehava’s approval, that so called disff. weapon is not biblical they only use it against certain menbers who are not part of the “click”. This organisation is BS. I walked away from it since August 2010 I sent my letter of resignation to New-York Headquater since then I have no regrets. The only thing that makes me mad is that I should never put my feet in this BS org. I spent 17 years of my life in this dangerous cult. I think God everyday I got out of it alive.Surprisingly one of the elders threathened me not to live the org He said ” if you live you will be dead”. one year later instead of me he was the one who died with a massive Heart attack. He was The president of that K.H. Again I Have no, absolutely no REGRETS!!!!!
smartlady(Quote)
great! i know someone who certainly needs this post at this very moment. just yesterday i found out he is sending this letter of intent to be reinstated. i really hope he comes often to this site..as i dont know really how to give him the support and comfort he needs…unless he sees all of us here, then he can really realize there are so many out there struggling like him…thank you for the prayer JJ..
whateverhappenedtome(Quote)
hullo tracy! What you wrote was so encouraging for me.
Your love and heart is so huge. You faith in God still remains. Thank you for coming and sharing this with us.
Sis Ruth from Australia
Ruth(Quote)
I just don’t get it- why don’t most people just drift away and become in-active? Why do Witnesses torture themselves by falling for organizational man made procedures….I just don’t get it.
Wakeupwitness(Quote)
People need to remember: judicial committees, disfellowshippings, reinstatements… It’s all organizational man made procedures. A person can just walk away from the religion. I did 8yrs ago. When the elders came knocking about 5yrs ago I simply said, “I just don’t have time to come to the meetings.” I haven’t heard a peep from them since. Not that I want one, but does anyone know if elders still do sheparding calls or check up on in-active ones?
Whenever I run into an elder at Walmart they always say the samething…”we miss seeing you at the kingdom hall.” My response always is: “well, you brothers have a funny way of showing it.”
Wakeupwitness(Quote)
right right. i agree that fading is the best exit tactic. the elders are required to do shepherding visits from time to time especially during CO visits and especially if the inactives are kind of affecting the average hours of the congregation. u see, aside from being a christian, every witness is called ‘publisher’..and as someone who works in a publishing company, im having an idea why every publisher must report how many publications are dessiminated and to which locations and what territories are covered…and since the circuit reports for productivity..or in theocratic terminology, ‘service report’ each publisher is required to turn in reports of hours and bible studies and placements, and to get the average, well it’s simple math we all know how…so if someone is not actively participAting in the field ministry or is inactive, his ‘scores’ can somewhat affect the entire average of the whole congregation. let’s say if in a cong. there 50 publishers, and only 10 turn in reports and the other 40 are not disfellowshipped, so it means they are part of the equation. imagine how low the average would be, shame on that spiritually weak congregation of jws. and so, brother CO will then help out the congregation improve its spiritual standing by encouraging the bros and sisters to do more….im not judging here, my dad was a circuit overseer before me and my siblings were born and i heard some of them crack jokes about which congregation had the much improvement under whose CO’s term of service..u know..it may sound funny but it’s part of the jw culture. some CO are linient in such a way that they baptize interested ones easily, especially if they are daughters and sons of jw parents, there is not much need for lenthy bible study sessions.and so when their 3-year service ends, it would be a very nice thing to put on their portfolio of achievements that many were baptized and that the circuit was progressive during their term. im not saying there is anything wrong with that, because i have seen the joys and happiness And many youths have put their time into good use by taking part with spiritual things rather than do nothing or be occupied with worldly things. and i still believe that sharing bible message is a good thing in general regardless of wether a group is spewing truth, half truth, or false stuff. there are some remote places, im talking about youths in communities where there is no other spiritual guidance. some places are like the modern sodom and gomorrah where the only nice people are jws, in fairness, i know some town in my country.but all i’m saying is that its about time jws humbly admit that the whole religion is also mixed with man-made procedures…just like any other organization trying to contibute good in the society as a whole. but sad to say, the org always emphasizes that every single thing the org is doing is dictated by God himself, that is why jws live in guilt, if they miss the midweek meeting even if they’ve attended the weekend meeting, we still feel inadequate, if we turn in less than 10hours for field service report, we feel guilty for not doing enough, if we miss assemblies or not able to pioneer as much as others we feel we are less spiritual…if we get jobs with schedules that cannot allow us to attend midweek evening meetings, we feel we are not seeking the kingdom first….and so many other kinds of guilt that tortures every witness…the publications may say it is voluntary, the elders may say it is not a gauge for salvation, but still there is this skin deep stigma among all witnesses….it’s complicated, sometimes words are not even enough to really express the exact way we feel..but since we all come from the same org, im sure you all know what i mean….
whateverhappenedtome(Quote)
JJ, hello to you, too.
I was saying how wrong it would be to lie to elders saying you are serving Jehovah and worshiping his organization if you really arent, and hate them in your heart. This would not be right in my thinking.
Some come here and bash the Witnesses, and then a few weeks later they go before a committee and act innocent, “Why are you df’ing me!” What? I hate the WT BS, too..like the sister said, but I would never go lie to elders to get back in just to lie to my relatives, too? What? I think I am misunderstanding what some who seek reinstatement are doing.
John S(Quote)
Brother John,
In my case, I was truly repentant and I felt I needed to demonstrate my family I had put those things behind me. If I’m going to be DFed, I’d rather be DFed for the right reasons. Like JJ, if I was betrayed and hauled before a judicial committee and disfellowshipped for the same reasons he was, I could never conscientiously be reinstated.
In reality, God through Christ had already forgiven me long ago. I didn’t need the elders as my Mediator.
However, in some cases, like mine, it might make sense to emulate Paul in Acts 21 who underwent a Temple purification ritual mediated by Levitical priests. Now…was Paul under the Law? Did he truly accept a corrupt priesthood as his mediator? Were not the things of the Old Covenant now void? Still, for the benefit of those still influenced by this corrupt and void priesthood, he underwent the ritual. Paul truly become all things to all people.
This was my Scriptural justification. I underwent the ritual, sitting in six months of meetings, and enduring more backroom meetings to “check on my progress”. I was 99% honest in everything I said. They never gave me a loyalty test or asked me about my feelings regarding the organization.
I could honestly say things like, “I love Jehovah. I love my Christian brothers and sisters. I read the Bible every day. I study the publications. I want to spread the good news.” Of course, in the spirit of “theocratic warfare”, they were not entitled to full disclosure. My conscience is clean.
Londo(Quote)
actually i understand you John. i used to think that way..especially before when i m a very active jw. i always say, no one forces anyone to be a jw, or no elder or jw will force anyone to stick in the org…if someone is no longer happy he is free to go or do anything as he pleases..all he needed to do is to turn himself in and be disfellowshipped or write a letter of disassociation to the branch office. simple as that…and then the org will leave you alone effective immediately…..
but here is the truth, not all jws who feel like leaving have the kind of courage that others have. i know i understand that now.some ahve different levels of courage and not all are in the same stage of awakening. some who have awakened to the tatt sticks around probably because they are still in denial that they have lost faith in the org..others are still finding more proofs that there really is such thing as TTATT, while others are quietely just waiting if the org may have some developments or changes or some reform to do, some are just afraid because they dont know where else to go. for those who have been raised in the “truth”,this is the only way of worship they know and without the org,they feel disabled to worship God..it’s either. they choose to go to the world like a wild horse who just got out from the zoo cage or come back like the prodigal son. some come back because they are truly repentant of the sins they have done that are in direct violation of the bible, like adultery, immorality, etc etc, while others who have left and became ‘apostates’ as per wt definition, may choose to go back to reconnect with their families..so many reasons, and its kinda hard to understand if we are not the person in that particular shoe…
whateverhappenedtome(Quote)
I admit,honestly, i dont like to be dfd especially if the only reason is for realizing ttatt. first reason is because i don’t want to hurt my elderly parents whose faith is really solid in the org, and they are too nice that they never force any of us to be baptized, id say they won me with their fine examples. the org has done so much for them, served as fulltime missionaries in their younger age, and their love story and how they met while in the fulltime service is just something that they cherish and because i love them and i see them happy in the org, in fact it’s what has kept them going after all these years, they remained positive and hopeful of the new system to come and are pretty contented with their faith, why would i destroy that? plus recently, i have tested the waters with them and expressed some of my doubts in a really nice way, and they didn’t show any alarm, all they advice is that im an adult and whatever is bothering my mind i must pray and ask for guidance…ther will be a new world to come and Jehovah sees my heart. i just happen to be lucky because my parents Are like that. but i know for sure if i fully express my view about the org and how i no longer believe in some of the teachings and in fact contemplating exit, i would break their heart because i know they cannot shun me and it will put them in such a big pressure considering their nice track record in the org. i can just imagine, if armageddon doesn’t come and they pass away, i cannot live thinking i’ve disappointed them to their last breath, so for now, for that i am willing to wait on Jah, and wait for due time but that doesn’t mean though i will pretend to be someone For the org..i dont need to be an overly vocal opposer against the org, i think what i should do is build a real personal relationship with christ and learn more ttatt…and who knows in the near future, there will be ways i dnt know, but for now, i wont choose the dfd status due to the side effects of it. but if one day the org will say disfellowshipping won’t affect family relationships, forget the friendships we have with others in the org, i think, i will really leave and supposed my journey to ttatt fails because the org is right after all. i will humbly go back and give the gb a megaphone to tell me ” i told you so”
whateverhappenedtome(Quote)
I agree with you Londo, no imperfect man can judge us many of us stay “in” in order to still have contact with our friends and family and personally all i do is go to the meetings about once or twice a month and when i get the chance try to help those close to me awaken. There are many who have hurt me and those that have omitted sins but Jehovah God will judge them not those elders who follow the rules of those that claim to have God’s approval. One day i will be ready and have the courage to leave for good as many have before.
C M(Quote)
I have to admit this post was very refreshing and even inspiring. I was DFd 8 months ago and Im considering submitting my letter for reinstatement but solely to gain my family back. Those who post that we’re lying really don’t know or can even imagine what it is like to be in this situation. When you’re DFd you feel like a HUGE injustice is being committed against you because even if you FEEL without a doubt in your heart that your truly repentant if the ELDERS say your not, then you have to believe them. In a judicial hearing you actually see what happens when MYTH and REALITY collide. I was always taught to believe that if you confess immediately its “rare” that they will DF you. THAT IS JUST NOT TRUE!! That is a LIE. The elders are NOT looking for “works befitting repentance” or signs of genuine repentance. They are LOOKING for ANYTHING to give them grounds to DF you. If they are in doubt they WILL DF. What little faith i had in the WT organization was destroyed when i was DFd. I cannot go back and since there is NO OTHER WAY to gain your family back your forced to play the hand you are dealt. I just want to get reinstated then fall into being “inactive” (dont you just love the labels? :-/)
PLEASE JJ, post PART TWO!!!! Peoples lives are literally at stake!! And keep up the EXCELLENT WORK my Brother!!
-OMG
Awakened!(Quote)
What touching stories so many of us have- Thank’s Awakened! for sharing a portion of yours with us.
Part two is coming. We had a setback though, as the brother that was transcribing the secret audio recording of one sister’s reinstatement hearing for me may have lost the many hours of work he had already spent on it due to a virus. Either way it will get done…sorry for the delay, it could take a while to get back to speed but it will happen as quickly as possible.
And welcome to the JWS site!
JJ(Quote)
Thanks a Million JJ! Ur doing a great job my brother! May our Heavenly Father helps us all as we all try to do our best to serve Him whole souled!
Ill be anxiously waiting Part Two! Thank again!
Awakened!(Quote)
I just up’d and left one day, and never went back. There is no way I was going along with their Charade. It is all a “power” thing based upon voluntary compliance.
MrVic(Quote)
Why would I want to go back to an organization that is a self- enclosed hierarchy, with a built- in designed immunity designed to keep this organization from being accountable for it’s errors and spritiual damage to countless lives, all under the banner of Jah’s name. I would call it the disgusting thing that causes desolation, in my book.
Freethinkerinjah(Quote)
Well said. That sums it up in a nutshell
Chris(Quote)
Freedom to truth seekers! Now you get to have a life and love a real God without the chains of lies!
That’s why I’m smiling!
Let go or get dragged.
Freethinkerinjah(Quote)
After reading all of your stories these past few days, I can’t help but feel Jehovah led me here. I’ve never been df’d, but that may only be because I dodged a bullet. When the elders started using that ‘harsh’ tone with me in the back room I got offended and strongly defended myself with a bellowed, “How DARE you speak to me like that!” I even slammed the door on my way out. I didn’t answer calls from them since I was still furious. Business took me out of town for a few months right after that, so I was a little shocked at how cold everyone was upon my return. Some elders had been telling tales, I suppose, of their problems with me to the congregation. Looking back now I’m sure they were preparing to df me at that meeting for apostasy, since I’d been stubbornly refusing to turn in a blood card and clearly expressing my concern, based on scripture, that the blood transfusion nonsense wasn’t something I would even bother consulting them about should it come up. I’ve been attending another congregation, though not turning in time (I didn’t even bother having my card transferred), and I’m careful not to get too close to the unreasoning ‘zealots’. Many of them, however, are still good company on occasion, as long as I steer clear of my concerns about ‘doctrine’. I avoid discussions with elders, though I’m reasonably polite with them. I often feel that I should just treat them like dirt since they only do their ‘power trip’ over the submissive ones, but that hasn’t proved necessary. Needless to say my study habits went down the tubes. I started reading the bible every day instead of the wt, and I was pretty surprised at how little I had learned about the bible over the years even though I had kept up with the provided study program with due diligence (high-lighted paragraphs and notes in the margins for comments, etc). I can’t help but wonder if everyone in the congregation put the time in on the bible instead of the wt if more would start seeing the hypocrisy. Generally the wt offers practical Christian advice in the driest manner possible. Since I started on the bible though I feel like I’ve been fed milk for years (or possibly gruel with sand in it) instead of meat. I’ll keep coming here, guys, and giving serious thought to your discussions. Thanks JJ, and all the rest of you for the peace you’ve given me while I’ve been bumbling through your site.
miscreant ‘droid(Quote)
miscreant ‘droid –
Welcome brother it’s great to have you here. So many of us that think for ourselves end up realizing that something is terribly wrong with the Watchtower Organization and the leadership!
Bravo to you- keep learning, keep researching. We are here, and many other fabulous sites are too to help you!
With Kind Regards,
Eric aka JJ
JWStruggle
JJ(Quote)
It took me 20 years to get reinstated apart from sin. There was an elder who deliberately kept me out of the KH, his name was Bob Card. I never blamed the others. Bob Card was worshipped in this area as a demi god. I really do not see how this congregation could allow one elder to have so much control. Also I do not see how Jesus could forgive a congregation who could not forgive others. One man took the entire congregation down. Although Bob Card died a long time ago my scars are forever.
One horrible experience was taking care of my dying mother who sufferered years with cancer. Her last wishes was for her family to attend funeral services at the Central Kingdom Hall. People treated me awful they walked right by me a snubbed me yet talked with my sister. How could they not realize that Bob Card was deliberately keeping out! Perhaps they thought they were waiting on Jehovah by doing nothing in reality they were worshipping a demi god! Many people knew my mother was sick for years and I was at the Kingdom Hall suffering with two chronic health issues while she was dying. Some thought I missed meetings but in reality most were visiting other Kingdom Halls. Bob Card was not my original elder and claimed to be my original elder for years and that was how he got by with not ever reinstating me. Another depressed elder was on my meeting the guy was clinically depressed, Owen Cummings. Finally, I could see through the deception and it was like Jehovah opened my eyes, so left Rosmere Kingdom Hall and eight months later I was reinstated at Stapleton Kingdom Hall. Unfortunately, elder Chuck Martini broke confidentiality and breach a promise.
I would like to mention that the original elders disfellowshipped my ex husband more than four times one was for sex abuse of minors!
Also, the above article mentioned confession of sin. Let me remind everyone that people who confessed their sins were never put out of the early Christian congregations. It was the opposite, elders prayed for brothers and sisters and their family.
The memories and pain are as follows: My father’s murder and elders stating better he died on this side of Armageddon because he would not survive, pre teen marriage to an unknown sex offender,stalker, forgery, crazy as all get out, elders UN loving 20 years of keeping me disfellowshipped,funeral services were people treat disfellowshipped one’s like they are dead,finally elder, Chuck Martini lies and back biting and confessing he wanted to help me.
Now I am free because I learned the truth about the truth and the above wicked evil men will never hurt me again. Unfortunately I struggle with living with the memories. Jehovah’s Witnesses are a cult or occult and the good news I never have to speak to any of them.
RachelSouder(Quote)
Rachel that is an incredibly moving account of what has happened to you- thank you for sharing it.
We rejoice that you have escaped from the mind control of the WT Corporations.
Moving on is difficult but not impossible!
In Christ,
Eric aka JJ
JJ(Quote)
Wow Rachel. What truly horrible experiences you have had. That “God’s people” can inflict so much suffering on a person,who is already hurting, is an indictment upon them. They will be judged with the judgment they render, and receive the mercy they bestow! The WT does a fine job in switching off “natural affection”…mind control at it’s finest! You will find friends here, and I’m sure you will be able to help, comfort, and encourage all the visitors to this site.
Rupunzelsawake(Quote)
How much is escaping the grip of a evil dictator worth?
How much is Freedom from an oppressive regime actually worth, what are you willing to pay for a chance to live? Some families make the ultimate sacrifice so one or two of their family might be able to see what the outside world actually looks like. Tired of starving to death, eating and chewing on bark, animal scat, and grass, the family decides to take a chance against all odds to discover what freedom is. The Western World has no idea how bad things for a very dark spot sore spot known as North Korea and all the death and pain it brings to it’s own members (Citizens). Annually in a country with no hope of improvement, one will look at life as cruel or some type of joke. A few of the elite are the poster children for North Korea’s Magazines and billboards claiming their Governing Dictator has brought true light from the Heavens. They, the low caste and political thinkers will suffer as slaves and apostates for daring to ask a question. Asking questions is against the Party Line, it’s enough to start a process of constant suspicion, mistrust, with a noticeable blacklisting of your family. Strong Party Members don’t ask questions, they will agree with anything their Governing Dictator and generals tell them to believe, always worried a misspoken word in private might land them before a military judicial hearing.
I do not know what the statistics are for a person who tries to go back into North Korea after escaping this hell on earth country, but it’s probably in the low single digits. The families when they make “Logan’s run” are hoping that one or maybe two of their family will not suffer the cruel oppression and intolerance of a regime that allows no vocal disagreements, just men and woman thanking Heaven for sending their Governing Dictator. Families are very distrustful of everyone; each person must learn to use the secret political Kingdom code to remain in good standing while laying low beneath the radar of the ever watchful mistrusting people with one phone call could lead to a interrogation by their policing authorities where you are guilty and must use self-deprecation to prove you really love your glorious leader and thank him for all the bountiful foods (bugs, woodchips, bark, rats, mice and dogs if you’re lucky to find one) he has been divinely appointed to bring about glory for his regime (Organization).
What makes a man or woman take the biggest risk they will ever endure? The risk of having the remaining members of your family thrown in jail, excommunicated by the Government or put in a internment camp to destroy Three Generations of your Family? Hope, hope that there is something better than living like a Walking Dead, hope for just part of your family that two or even one might get to live instead of suffering, stuck and going insane slowly as you listen to political and social rhetoric where life is worthless. Once a man or woman make’s it across the Chinese border, they must find a way to get to South Korea before the Chinese who are good at hunting down these North Korean refugees are quickly handing them back with no emotion to be killed. Many of the groups I have read about who are doing the “Underground North Korean Railway” are often from Christendom, trying to allow men and women a chance at life, a chance to see how a real Christian act’s towards those wanting to get away from High Group Mind Control and show them that the sacrifice their family decided to make, a painful decision that would cost those who remain in the group (Country) their lives, will be honored and celebrated once they make it to the Promised Land of Mental, Political, Social and Spiritual Freedom and hopefully make enough money to bribe some crooked official to release one of their family who is stuck in the Dictator’s High Mind Control World. Sacrifice is not cheap; it’s not an easy road to walk away from everything you held as truth over fifty years knowing you’re going to lose all your family for a chance a real freedom!
.
ElderMcBanal(Quote)
i remember an elder telling me of a situation were they had a person after two years who had been requesting reinstatement, but there was one elder on his committee who had some bad blood with this person, so after 3 months after this persons second letter they finally met with him and asked him how he felt,well he poured his heart out to them and then the questioning began,when it finally became clear that there was no justification for keeping this brother out, they accused him of something that was absolutely false, and they kept badgering this poor person about the false accusation, after two years this brother was not going to agree to something false, he was pushed to the point by this committee that he had an emotional outburst, the elders told him to calm down and gather himself, they asked him to leave the room so they could deliberate, when the brother seeking reinstatement returned he was told that he was not ready for reinstatement because of the way he acted in the hearing.sadly this goes on and you wonder why people are driven to a nervous break down or even worse suicide? after doing this to someone how can these i dont even know what to call them,go home and have dinner with their family? this is a true experience and is also satanic………..
bill(Quote)
Hi Bill. Same modus operandi as judicial hearings- they have to be in control and any display of emotions can be taken as not showing them enough respect or ‘not co-operating with a theocratic arrangement’. I must say, you seem know more than your fair share of evil s.o.b elders!
JimmyG(Quote)
1 Corinthians 13 tells us of the elevated quality of Christian love. The story you tell, Bill, exposes the very human element of this man-made arrangement. When those naive about this unChristian and unBiblical methodology ask why anyone would not just leave this organisation, they don’t know the price is usually higher than most self-respecting victims are prepared to pay. All the way along this bully-system is designed to keep the control in the hands of the religiously powerful.
People need to know the full extent of the potential damage that can be done if anyone chooses to take offence at another congregation member before they join.
Frank
Frank(Quote)
it is designed to break a person mentally and emotionally, to conform to the organisation, true repentance is not the real underlying purpose,as you said frank bullying.this is why they can disfellowship or reinstate without repentance being a factor. the secret book outlines the judging tactics which gives the elders the authority to side step repentance and still df someone.
bill(Quote)
That’s right, Bill. There is much evidence for this. The fact is, that there is only one crime in the WTBTS and that is disobedience to “God-given” authority. The rest is smoke and mirrors. Perhaps North Korea would be a good parallel.
Frank
Frank(Quote)
There’s a video on YouTube by Anonymous and the elders in his audio use God’s Word in Isaiah to (Isaiah Chapter 1)say they are there to help this brother get his sins forgiven. The elders say and allude that they can forgive sins “we can get your sins white as snow”. That’s presumptuous and Blasphemy against Jehovah and Jesus, or am I wrong about their authority to read minds and forgive sins?
Who gave this men this authority, my research has lead me to this model of the Judicial Committee based on the Catholic Confession, the Inquisition, the Salem Witch Trials, the Puritan Paranoia that spread through the New World upper 1600s to early 1700s America. The Watchtower Society’s hybrid model might not be as cruel as the Inquisition or Witch Trials though when hunting down Apostates, they interrogate anyone and offer a Plea-Bargain to rat some other brother out! Same as the Inquisitional Authorities deals, say your fellow said something bad about the Church and we will make a deal with you!
We have some much in common with Christendom and ancient Jewish man-made blasphemous teachings than we get credit for.
I know the above stories are true because my brother was great at seeking to break the publisher wanting to be reinstated. He was beat up by the kids in school because he had a big mouth and short and stupid-man syndrome. Using big words around bullies was not a good idea, trying to make them feel stupid caused my Mother hours of putting cold steaks on his black eyes! Now he is paying back all those bullies when he see’s these poor broken reeds wanting to come back in.
Elder James McBanal(Quote)
what does anyone think the proper application of galations 6:1 is?doesnt any baptised brother have spiritual qualifications to help readjust a friend? or how about as the scriptures say bring them before the older men?. obviously there has to be some form of judging involved in these situations. Anyone?
bill(Quote)
Hi again Bill. I believe you are correct regarding Galatians 6:1. No mention here of ‘older men’, but of course the WT wouldn’t agree.
What scriptures do you have that say “bring them before the older men’? James 5:14 says: “Is there anyone sick among you? Let him call the older men…” Here, the sick one calls the older men, not the other way around. In the context of the surrounding verses, the use of the word ‘sick’ could mean a number of things. But the older men in these verses are in a shepherding role, not a judging role. In verse 15, it says: “ALSO, IF he has committed sins, it will be forgiven him”. My take on the use of the words ‘also’ and ‘if’ show these particular ‘sins’ are separate and distinct from what’s listed in verses 13 and 14. Note too, that these sins are ‘forgiven’- no need for a complex set of judicial procedures as is practiced by WT.
I have asked this question before, but I’ll ask it again- is there any scripture (New Testament) that links or lists JUDGING as part of an elder’s ‘job description’? It’s certainly not included in the biblical lists of qualifications for ‘older men’. A wicked man is to be removed by the congregation- Matthew 18:17.
JimmyG(Quote)
Dear All;
I think what’s going on is an extrapolation of the Mosaic system where older men met at village gates.
These men were part of the local governmental system of a then theocratic order.
Not really equal to modern civil states, so may be beneficial or risky in equal measure as history shows.
The risk being Babylon getting on the back of the Beast.
B
Reader(Quote)
jimmy your wording is correct and thats the scripture i was thinking of. i was thinking quickly lol. but your explanation is good. as far as judging is concerned,the reader is also thinking of the time when a decision was reached about an individual at the gates, this must have included some form of judging. how does the congregation expel someone? the older men spoken of in titus etc. must have a role in this, but i know what you mean jimmy, where is the clear language?
bill(Quote)
the original greek for galations 6:1 is translated spiritual people ,the king james and goodnews bibles say the same. the NWT is the only copy that has the word qualifications injected into that verse. mmmmmm i wonder why?
bill(Quote)
Bill, the scripture you and reader are referring to is Deuteronomy 16:18-20. The WT can’t even claim to base its judicial system on this arrangement. It was a public arrangement to ensure no perversions of justice occurred. WT star chamber judicial hearings bear no resemblance to this scenario.
Congregations in the 1st century were autonomous, so if a ‘wicked’ person was to be removed, one could assume that the congregation would decide how this was to be done. However, as the whole congregation was involved, it was public, out in the open. In 1 Corinthians 5, Paul was calling the congregation to account for not acting on removing a ‘wicked’ person from its midst.
The use of the word ‘qualifications’ would appear to give the impression that it refers to elders only, which distorts the full meaning of the scripture. There are many suspect scripture renderings in the NWT. For example: Philippians 1:7, the word ‘legally’ is inserted, but has no equivalent word in the Greek text. This is easily proven using the WT’s own Interlinear bible.
JimmyG(Quote)
excellent jimmy, the opening scripture in matthew barrie glascows appeal committee i believe was also in deut under the mosaic law,where jehovah tells them to handle cases and if a case is to difficult they are to call upon jehovah to judge it. problem being we are no longer under the mosaic law, interestingly deut also says clearly that jehovah does not change.
bill(Quote)
Dear All;
The word is an insert, but how corupt is it?
Languages differ not only in words, but in grammer and customs of the day at point of origin and destination. And the translation was made some years ago.
Perhaps the word should have been marked as a translators insert, so that the actual words can be seen during any later applications.
Those of us who can remember a bit of the 1950/60s mindset, might consider the ‘legally’ even then a slightly different flavour.
1Peter 5 v 2
B
Reader(Quote)
Hi Guys.
Organising and arranging millions of people arguably could call for the making of modern provisions for congregational discipline.
This is certainly true where open and shut judicial cases (“did they do it or not”) like adultery, clearly defined fornication, and other obvious sexual sins. There obviously needs to be an arrangement that could keep such problems under control.
However, this system can be judged by its “works.” The Internet has revealed both the results such destroyed families and people who had no genuine forum to discuss doctrine without the fear of punishment. What is obvious is that the Bible has taken a back seat to a familiar fact about history; place any human in power for too long and corruption inevitably enters their thinking.
Religiously, the Pharisees provide a good example of this. Trying Jesus in the dead of night, using false witnesses to ensure the desired result (especially in the case of perceived apostasy), stretching credulity with personal interpretations of Scripture to suit a subjective agenda, removing entitlement to natural human rights to force someone into a judicial corner, are all properties of a corrupt system.
When listening to the Matthew Barrie case, one can almost hear the ripping of garments.
Frank
Frank(Quote)
Read other bible translations of Philippians 1:7 and then decide for yourself how ‘corrupt’ it is.
JimmyG(Quote)
i read the whole transcript in the matthew barrie case, it seems all the appeal committee was looking for was a few answers from matthew to help contradict the witnesses testimony regarding his feelings on matters such as doctrine,in a sense matthew was afraid to answer any question put to him by the appeal committee, because of what was taken out of context the first time landing him in front of the original committee, he would not let them establish any proof that they were looking for to ease their minds so they df him anyway.a watchtower back in the fifties points out that any older men who use this powerful means to harm an innocent one basically will have the rath of god on those responsible. there is no way most of these men care about that,their works in many cases that are coming to light are proving this, i have heard and seen first hand nightmare situations that truly harm people, like jimmy mentioned earlier we are not talking about clear cut practiced unrepentant gross sin,rather those very thin cases that can develope in a congregation that at times can end up in front of a committee,and the accused really does not want to be df. but they are anyway,as i said in an earlier comment, the direction given allows the elders to judge even when someone is truly repentant,ex. tears are not always a sign, they are sorry they got caught, a lot of spinning can be applied to get rid of the persona non grada personality,if some on the committee or yes even other prominent ones out side of the so called autonomous committee want that person gone,ex.before making a final decision you may want to speak to a more experienced elder about the case never mentioning the persons name, and dont ever tell anyone that you have done this, obviously for legal reasons,thats the direction,obviously the reader above has never seen first hand or personally had a nightmare committee situation ,and hopefully that never happens, but when the dust settles a lot of people may be very surprised who is there and who isnt due to the multitude of mis handled outright kangaroo courts destroying peoples lives.
bill(Quote)
Matthew Barrie was exercising his basic human right to not self incriminate. This, among all other human rights, is missing from WT judicial procedure. Exercising this right is regarded by the WT as ‘not co-operating with one of Jehovah’s theocratic arrangements’.
JimmyG(Quote)
It is easy to miss what happens between the hearing and the appeal, too. Collusion occurs without the victim being present. Matthew knew these men as circuit overseers – yes, he was a high-profile case. All these men know each other and all-but bargain their opinion among themselves, making getting free of its clutch nearly impossible. Once the judicial face is set against the victim probably a ream of foot-kissing would change nothing.
What needs to be borne in mind as well is that the whole thing was likely engineered by one particular elder who is the subject of Podcast 8 where only Matthew does the proper Scriptural thing (Matt. 18: 15-17)
Frank
Frank(Quote)
good points frank and jimmy, that appeal committee already had their minds made up before matthew entered the room, they had their witnesses and you could sense from the transcript that they were playing with him, testing him under pressure,to see what results that may bring for their own experience in dealing with this type of situation.what is bound on earth is not always bound in heaven!how can it be for those of us who have seen the injustice,theres no way jesus and jehovah would agree. there was always a sense from many that when one enters that judicial process, those men are not your friends period.. their main concern is protecting the watchtower, and whats even worse is whether its in the usa, england,australia, the mind set is all the same mind conditioning,i would guess that if some really understood what they are involved in and not the truth as it were,they wouldnt know what to do,but most puppets will behave and perhaps never see the back room. whats even more astounding to me is how a man over one hundred years ago could have began putting together an organization that can be so destructive in peoples lives in the year 2013, by the way brothers you do realize that the watchtower does have certain brothers assigned to read these comments on this web site. just wanted your thoughts on that and its a fact. in reality in a way so what about false dates and new light etc. thats not the stuff that harms people its that dreaded judicial process…..thats what continues to drive me and reply i feel that strongly about it…
bill(Quote)
In at least two judicial cases I have transcribed the committee states that an appeal is convened as a favour to the accused. This implies that it is an “act of loving-kindness from the Governing Body.” In the Barrie case, I think they say that he (Matthew) had called the appeal. What can this possibly mean? Maybe they have in mind that when an Israelite under the Mosaic Law was found guilty of a capital crime, the man/woman, or both) were taken outside the camp/city and stoned to death. Either way, it makes no sense as a Christian arrangement as the system is completely made up anyway.
Secondly, it is stated that an appeal can only come about on the ground that that a procedural error(s) has been made. Note in Matthew’s appeal that neither of the procedural objections Matthew raises is dealt with.
At http://thegoverningbody.org/ma.....cotland-3/, the appeal chairman says:
“So, probably the best thing for us to do first of all with that in mind – your letter of appeal, you just mentioned that you felt that there was a serious miscarriage of justice. I think that’s how you phrased it, wasn’t it?”
Matthew testifies that there are two errors:
1 That the only “evidence” that the original committee had to convict him (on the charge ONLY that Matthew’s THINKING was apostate) had come exclusively from the contents of confidential talk during a shepherding calls (pastoral penitent comments), and:
2 That he had evidence that he had been set up by Prosecution Witness One (See Podcast 8: Showdown at the Kingdom Hall).
cont…
Frank(Quote)
Then at around 5 minutes in the appeal chairman says:
“Appeal Chairman: Okay, okay. And we will hear that. We need a little bit more detail on what you’ve just mentioned there, Matthew. For example, what were the things that were discussed?”
Note here neither error is addressed. As anyone will see the discussion centres only on whether Matthew will swear allegiance to the Governing Body as the ‘only true channel that Jehovah is using in the Time of the End.’
Interestingly, I wrote an article on this site about the connection between judicial cases and personal grudges among those who bring an accusation.
http://thegoverningbody.org/je.....ng-gossip/
Not surprisingly, in the Judicial Case, Matthew is not permitted to cross-examine his ‘witnesses’ with anything other than a ‘yes,’ or ‘no.’
If people avail themselves of this magnificently-accessible judicial case many would be able to understand the possible methods employed to attain the desired guilty verdict.
The science being employed here is not that at arriving at justice, but rather that of damage-control (enforced doctrinal unity). It matters not that a person is an ACTUAL threat to the Christian congregation, it matters only that he/she is perceived as a potential threat for their Scriptural dedication and baptism be revoked.
Frank
Frank(Quote)
interesting you mention that frank, matthew i believe was only able to address the witnesses through the chairman, again this is not a qualified protection for the accused, what good is it then to enforce your right to face your accusers? i have seen committees operate both ways the only time an accused does not have to address the chair to communicate with a witness is when an elder is the one accused, i have been a part of both original and appeal committees and have seen this discrepancy.in most cases elders will not tell the accused they have the right to face their accusers, this is as you know easier to create discrepancies in testimony and get a conviction. even when someone brings someone to the hearing with them who has intimate knowledge of the charge or charges,the elders will try to employ a method that will create discrepancies in the testimony of each appearing before the committee, this is done when both are consistently on the same page testifying, the elders will ask if the accused one or ones would mind being separated and questioned separately? this under no circumstances should ever be agreed to.why? because if separated the elders will ask a series of questions and if the answers from both who have been questioned separately dont answer spot on to every detail,which in all cases never happens practically anyway even if both are sincere in trying to tell the truth,the elders will then tell both that they have answered some questions differently and we as a committee now have a problem with someone lying about the evidence or facts etc.then the person targeted will almost always be disfellowshipped for a new reason other than the original charge or charges. yes these are your loving brothers using these tactics to hang your fellow imperfect sinful brothers and sisters needing help.
bill(Quote)
Bill, in my opinion the WT of today, with all its legalism and thought control etc, started with Rutherford, not Russell. As far as commenting on false dates and new light, you may want to choose another thread, as its getting off topic on this one.
JimmyG(Quote)
Hi Bill. Before I forget, I am aware of possible WT spies who “monitor” sites such as this. If this is the case, if they think I use my real name, then let them enjoy that delusion too. I am aware as well that self-proclaimed authoritative agents of the WT will be happy to arm themselves with the latest detecting devices (to sniff out recording devices) as the technology becomes available.
JimmyG. The only claim this tawdry “judicial” system has to its claim to be “legal” is that it is a cheap parody, actually a farce, as any reasonable person will conclude after having studied the Matthew Barrie case.
Bill, have you read my extensive fully-annotated analysis on Governing Body.org called ‘The Martyring of Matthew Barrie: A Study in Religious Ethics – Parts 1,2, and 3?
http://thegoverningbody.org/re.....-judicial/
…cont.
Frank(Quote)
In my thesis I discuss the 21 ethical (and civil rights) violations I personally found. The fact is that Matthew, who had not been to meetings for 8 months prior to this charade, was permitted no representative, and no independent witness, to the circus that was to come.
You mention lack of information given to him. This is called The Right to Due Process which gives an accused person the full ability to defend himself/herself against allegations made.
Another (among many) points to watch for is that even his ‘witnesses’ (especially Prosecution Witness One) deliberately misleads the committee with what Matthew ACTUALLY allegedly said to him – and remember Matthew was only permitted to answer ‘yes’ or ‘no’ without any personal cross-examination.
When religious people believe that the outcome of such events are due to an external force, there is no motivation to get thorough in preparing for the proceedings.
Frank
Frank(Quote)
are you reprimanding me jimmy for drawing a comparison with regard to what is dangerous to people and not so dangerous? the thought was still surrounding being disfellowshipped or reinstated. i dont understand your apparent attempt to make a correction to my deepest thoughts. be careful isnt this the very thing we are in opposition of in the organization?
bill(Quote)
I haven’t been able to access this site for the last 2 days, hence the delay in replying to Bill.
Bill- I have no idea what you’re talking about. I was just suggesting we stay on topic. If the topic changes, those comments should go on a more appropriate article or post, that’s all.
No reprimand and you can say what you want- you’ll have trouble offending me with anything you or anyone else says.
JimmyG(Quote)
thanks jimmy, good to hear from you
bill(Quote)
Wow! I have just found, and read this entire website and comments.
I dont even know if I am disfellowshipped or disassociated! I needed to get away from am abusive relationship (he has been an elder now for years), and just did that! I have been away from the “orgnization” for 25 years. I raised 7 kids, 4 not my birthkids, and supported them all because my husband didnt want to work. That would be the “now elder” I have a son who is a Guilliad (spelling) graduate and a missionary in Malawi…he hasnt spoken to me since he was 13..born in 1972. The brothers would not help me at all because they said they needed at least two witnesses to whatever he did. He drank alot, he was ….well, was enough for me to leave the Organization…I would have done anyting to get away. I was married to him for 20 hell years.
I have NEVER felt the loss of Jehovah in my life…ever. I love him and Jesus with all my heart. I would NEVER become in another other religion because I know that the JW way is the truth, rather the Bible is the truth.
I am seriously thinking about reinstatement but it frightens me after reading all the comments here. I would like some input please.
thank you,
Sandy
Sofaj(Quote)
Wheres part 2?
anonymous(Quote)
This is me. Right now. This second.
My husband is only with me if I can prove myself and get reinstated soon. I’m emotionally abused and contacted the elders, after being told to hang on for a minute. …they spoke to him about my “depressed state” and told him he’s all I have. I’m imprisoned in my home and my child is my babysitter.
My story is just beginning. …I believe the truth, but not how it’s being carried out.
I have so much confusion, so many thoughts that I’ve been warned against my whole life. … I’m literally terrified.
broken_one(Quote)