Not alone

Do you have questions about the truth? Has the truth seemed to change over the last few decades? Do you feel guilty for questioning the things that you have been taught? Or for doing research online by visiting websites that are not approved by the Society? Do you lie awake at night trying to sort it all out? Does it seem to you despite inconsistencies in doctrine and policies within the teachings of the Watchtower Society that there is “no where else to go”?

If so you are not alone. My online name is SIAM and I have been in that position. I served as an Elder for 7 years until early last year, when I resigned because of my conscience. I came to the point where I could not teach the congregation in good conscience things that I was unsure about. Like many of you, I was raised as a Witness, and much like Timothy I was taught “from infancy” things from the Bible and the Watchtower Society.  I spent 5 years pioneering and sharing “Kingdom truths” with my neighbors.  I was used as an Elder on Assembly parts and gave many Public Talks in the Circuit.  I might have even given a talk in your hall.

It all changed for me two years ago.  Suddenly cracks began to appear in my faith, cracks that were never there before. I began to study God’s word ever deeper in an effort to bolster my faith and drive away the doubt that was creeping in. I felt guilty for questioning the Society and afraid that I was abandoning the love that I had for God.

All of those feelings went away when I read (1 John 4:1) “Dear friends, do not believe everyone who claims to speak by the Spirit. You must test them to see if the spirit they have comes from God. For there are many false prophets in the world.” (New Living Translation)  This scripture actually encourages all true Christians to examine their beliefs. I began to earnestly examine the things I was taught, and what I found changed my viewpoint completely.

In retrospect there had been alarm bells ringing in my head for years, but the recent changes organizationally and doctrinally have made me consider the following facts:

 

  • As Witnesses we were taught that Armageddon is going to be here any moment and is imminent. The direction from the Holy spirit said that the end was going to come in 1914, 1925,1975, Before the end of the twentieth century, and you would never grow old or fulfill any career.  It didn’t happen. “Imminent” and “soon” has stretched on for over 130 years. Would Holy Spirit have directed the Society to make these predictions?
  • We were taught that there would be few anointed left when the end came and that the number will decrease as the end drew near. The number of anointed is increasing.  Considering the published numbers of partakers and 1st Century Christians, it is mathematically impossible to have only 144,000 true chosen ones.
  •  We are taught that field service is a life saving work that must be performed with a sense of urgency. Even though it is “urgent” the antiquated method of calling on empty houses is used as the primary way of trying to reach people.  Television, internet, email, postal service, social networking are not used even though the effectiveness of these methods are proven.
  •  We are taught that the light gets brighter as Jehovah blesses his servants with Holy Spirit and increased understanding.  Is Jehovah responsible for flip-flopping doctrines such as the generation of Matt. 24:34, organ transplants, Blood transfusions, the superior authorities etc. or is it men who claim to be inspired? If it were from Jehovah don’t you think he would have gotten it right the first time? Despite these changes each time credit/blame is given to Jehovah.  Consequently, a person could legitimately ask if they can even trust what they read in the publications, because it might change soon.
  • We are taught that we live in a spiritual paradise and associate with the safest group of people on earth. Despite this claim it is likely that in your congregation there is a child molester that you don’t know about.  Your elders are given instructions in some cases not to tell the authorities or to warn the congregation. Each congregation is actually instructed to maintain a document called the “Child Protection List” that identifies these individuals. Are any of the members in your local hall on this list? How would you know? If you ask one of the elders about this list they will tell you it is confidential…And probably ask you how you knew a such a secret list was being maintained.  The organization has tried in the past to sweep the problem of pedophilia under the rug, and continues to do so.  Is this in harmony with God’s qualities of love, justice, or wisdom?
  • Did you know that disfellowshipping as practiced within the organization, cannot be found in the scriptures? Would Jesus have treated sinners the way that we as Witnesses treat sinners? There are many websites and articles outlining how this practice has “gone beyond the things that are written.” (1 Corinthians 6:4)
  •  Despite the claim that all policies and instructions to elders are based on the scriptures, there is a book that only the elders have been given that has many congregational rules and policies not based on the scriptures.  You are not allowed to look at it unless you are an elder.
  • We are taught that the United Nations organization is the wild beast described in Revelation and is one of the organizations controlled by Satan.  Despite this, the Watchtower Society was partners of the UN for a number of years as a Non-Governmental Organization.
  • Even though the “truth” changes, if you believe something other than what is published as the latest light (right or wrong) you can be disfellowshipped. Does that seem just and loving to you?
  • 1914 cannot be proved by scripture as the end of the Gentile times.  No one other than the Witnesses believe that Jerusalem was destroyed in 607 BCE.  Brother Russell used the Great Pyramid of Giza’s measurements to corroborate 1914 as the end of the Gentile times.  The calculation arbitrarily uses a lunar year of 360 days to come to a date based on a solar year of 365.25 days.
  • Even though we are taught repeatedly that world conditions are deteriorating in fulfillment of Matthew chapter 24, earthquakes are not increasing in frequency according to the USGS. Crime rates have dropped dramatically according to the Department of Justice. The life span of mankind has risen dramatically since 1914 as pestilence is treated, controlled, or eradicated according to the Department of Health. Food shortages are decreasing. Wars are not increasing.
  • Even though you pray through Jesus to Jehovah, Jesus is not your mediator. This teaching is in print despite what the Bible says at 1 Tim. 2:5,6. The JWS video on this point explains this fallacy quite well.

 

I urge any readers of this site to verify the things that I have said.  Use secular sources, look up things on the internet, ask your elders if these things are true, even write the branch. Despite the shattering conclusion that some of what I have been taught is wrong, I have drawn closer to God. He has promised to lift us up when we are crushed, and at Hebrews 13:5, 6 he says:

“I will never fail you. I will never abandon you.” 6 So we can say with confidence, “The LORD is my helper, so I will have no fear. What can mere people do to me?”  (NLT) 

You are not alone in your search for truth. There are many sincere brothers and sisters who are still active within the congregations who see that things are not right, and are yet unable to speak up.  This is a fact demonstrated by the traffic to this website. When you go to the Kingdom Hall next, look around at your Brothers and Sisters and wonder, are they putting the “inspired expressions to the test” just like you? How many of them are currently investigating matters online as you are?

If you have been put out of the congregation or have voluntarily left, you have not been forgotten by our Heavenly Father or his Son and our King Jesus. We have not been forgotten you either. Dear Friends, I wish you the best as you continue to examine your faith. Put aside fear of man, fear of questioning your long standing beliefs and look to the scriptures for clarity.  Our Heavenly father will always bless your efforts to come to know him and his Son.

 

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114 Comments on Dear Friends- You Are Not Alone

  1. disappointed says:

    Dear bro. Siam.. I am one of those, I am an active JW with an elder husband. Yet I have held many doubts over the years. The clincher for me was the ‘overlapping generation’. I could not believe that yet again we were meant to just accept it! People with intelligence! A truth is a truth, it cannot be changed. If it changes it cannot be an old truth! If it is a ‘present truth’ then what was taught before must be a falsehood! We are told that it is the ‘light getting brighter'(Prov 4:18). Yet the context of that scripture is comparing the righteous with the wicked. Not that of understanding and knowledge. Jesus told us not to believe those that taught the end was near, not to follow them. (Luke 21:8)He himself said we do not know the day or the hour.(Math 24:36, Matt25:13)

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  2. ruth says:

    Dear bro Siam.
    What a wonderful wealth of information for any who are looking in. Summed up so neatly. These are a few things that bothered me inside the w/tower bro Siam.

    I remember the last District Assembly I attended was in 2002.( I had removed myself in my heart in 2000 though.) Anyway.
    Sitting among the crowd I suddenly felt we are all dressed like clones. We all looked the same I said to myself its just as if we fell out of a mold! Not seeing any individuality at all. Suits ties. Glamorous woman.
    Myself always got dressed up to the Nines.

    Of cause when the baptism talk began and the brother was programmed to say ” Come to Jehovah’s organization for salvation” My heart was so unhappy to hear that yet again. I really did not understand at the point why, although I knew it was wrong.I actually new many things were wrong. “Well know I now we must go to Jesus”. John 14:6
    On resigning it was as though I had walked away from my best friend “Jehovah” I had ever had, and was leaving him. My heart was so sorry. I even asked “What are you doing woman” What if you are wrong?

    A few of my pioneer partners through out the years gave me heaps. One was so angry with me and said. “How could you. You of all people leave Jehovah, He has done so much for you. Told me I had returned to my vomit.
    Another one kept texting me. What she said l cannot repeat here.
    I had to tell her if she did not stop harassing me I would get help.
    They simply did not understand Jesus was pulling me out.
    I pray for them always. I wish they were here with me now.
    Somehow I knew they loved me and were personally hurt.
    I received letters of condemnation.
    Still to this day they walk on the other side of the street.I am alone and I still cry so much. Well Earthly alone.

    On coming out. I had no earthly family either. Could you blame them? My sons hated me for telling them w/tower lies and persecuted me for years over that. Still do.

    My brothers made out I should be locked away. It was like I went into the worst kind of hole imaginable for years and years. I was truly Job tested to the bones.
    Yet I remained Loyal even more when I made my mind up everyday to will take one step at a time. Keep close to God by reading praying singing. Keep away from the world. “Just trust the God who had always looked after me. Sometime I would huddle like a baby in a corner screaming in pain of a broken heart.

    My son out of the blue suddenly had a heart and bought me a computer! Well that was it. I saw so much. ( By the way) Our father did always make sure the right person at the right time cruised in and out my life. Some I learnt more hard lessons from. others were very decent bible loving people. But! I Continued now for the past 12 years to stay faithful. Not perfect

    Could not join any religions just continued sharing with all what my experience has been with anyone that would talk about the son of God and his Kingdom. Any one at all really.
    It is only in the past year I have met real true Christians and it feels so good.
    Prayer:
    “Thank you my Lord and father. Thank you from the bottom of my heart you delivered myself and ones here, “others still out in the wilderness” from a satanic stronghold.
    May we learn to grow with each individual that you send in our lives and hopefully give each one your love and our own as well.
    May we all forgive each other as you forgave us and never carry grudges. But continue in your love for ever.
    In Yeshua we pray.
    Sister Patricia (Ruth)

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    • FutureMan says:

      I know that you don’t agree with all that I have to say Ruth, but I do sympathize with you in your trials, I really do.

      May God keep on blessing you in your efforts to increase the talents that our Lord and Master has given each of us.

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    • Camelot says:

      Thank you so very much for sharing (((HUG)))

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  3. Bro. Ed says:

    Dear brothers and sisters who are struggling to reconcile the issues brother SIAM has outlined. Understand that rejecting untruths and false doctrine is not rejecting your faith. Faith is not found in an organization, it’s found in you by the spirit God has given you through your relationship with the Son Jesus Christ, our Lord and owner. Please read the following words of our brother Paul. Read it carefully:

    “For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. And I was with you in weakness and in fear and much trembling, and my speech and my message were not in plausible words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, that your faith might not rest in the wisdom of men but in the power of God. these things God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God. For who knows a person’s thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God. And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual. The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. The spiritual person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one. “For who has understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ.” (1 Corinthians 2:2-5, 10-16

    If this scripture seems to condratict the spoon feeding method of teaching the organisation uses, then who do you think has created this condratiction? It certainly isn’t the Apostle Paul, who wrote these words under divine instruction.

    Brothers and sisters, trust in God. Allow the spiritual being that you are to hear the words of our Father. Even when you are unsure of something someone else says, rely on the spirit and not human wisdom.

    Your brother in Christ

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    • FutureMan says:

      Bro.Ed, I believe that the spirit has led me in perhaps an unusual place because I am the type of person that can take it on board in a manner of speaking.

      Let me explain.

      All through my life since my early teenage years I have had an interest in Science fiction something which was continually discouraged by both my parents and also the organization of Jehovah’s Witnesses.

      Now science fiction reading is actually a mind expander because of all the different concepts that are out there in the fiction world.

      Anyway this has led me to look at things from different angles rather than purely the spiritual as ascribe to the Bible texts.

      It has also led me to have a slightly different view of God other than the Witness point of view.

      Now when it comes to the Spirit of God, very few people actually understand what it is and how it operates, because it is from a hidden force and intelligence.

      No one here can even envision the spirit realm, never mind trying to describe it. That would be futile.

      What I have discovered and what many people do not realize is that the spirit of God actually is in contact with an existing spirit of God that resides with in us.

      This individualized spirit is not the same as other Christian religions would call a soul, but a part of God’s spirit domain, that helps us all to progress to being spiritual persons and approved Sons of God.

      Now I do not know about this to much yet, but this is why we do need to listen to our inner-selves because this spirit of God that is within us is trying to tell us something and adjust our thinking towards God way of thinking.

      The external spirit of God as the “Spirit of Truth” is downloading information to this inner spirit of God that resides within us, that is those that have access to it through opening the door to Jesus as mentioned in Revelation 3.

      20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock: If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will enter to him, and I will dine with him, and he with Me.

      Anyhow by listening to this inner voice I have realized that there are parts of the bible that we do need to read with real discernment because God did not actually write the Bible himself.
      Men did.

      However God did relay by means of his angels and so on, visions to various men, and also influenced their writings through his spirit which resides within them and so a lot of what the prophet had written could be said to be from God as God’s thinking did come out in a lot of their writings.

      Unfortunately the thinking of men as related to their perception of God at that time was molded by the thinking of the past and the surrounding nations as a God to be feared and a God who would exact retribution upon anyone who disobeyed him or a God that would reward with prosperity those that did obey him.

      They also had turned God into one who supported continual animal sacrifices by the millions, a God who respects all life throughout our universe even that of a sparrow as Jesus indicated to his apostles when he was sojourning here on the earth.

      What we all really need to do is use Jesus and his teachings as a template for our God and Heavenly Father to see the real God, a loving and caring God who does not wish any harm upon anyone unless it is absolutely necessary. The last resort.

      I had applied this spiritual template myself over the writings of the Old testament, and I have got to tell you that I do not see the God and Father that Jesus preached about being contained within many of it’s pages.

      I sorry if this offends some of you but this is how I have come to see it.

      I believe that Jesus is the mirror of God and we should look through him to see the true God.

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      • andrew says:

        Futureman,

        It appears that you closely align your beliefs to the Urantia book. I believe this book teaches that Jesus’ shed blood did not atone for our sins. This is at odds with the fundamental belief of almost all Christians.

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        • FutureMan says:

          Well Andrew, it is certainly not my intention to stumble anyone on this site.

          But let me ask you just this one question.

          Is there anywhere in the teachings of Jesus that indicates an atonement for our sins?

          Did not Jesus even then have the power to forgive all sins that, that a person had committed?

          I do not know however about the sinning against the Holy Spirit situation.

          I do believe in Jesus sacrifice as being the utmost importance for us today, because he showed through his sacrifice that quality of great love that he has for all mankind and indeed the love of his Heavenly Father.

          So by not believing in a “ransom sacrifice” does not in my opinion diminish the importance of Christ’s sacrifice.

          In fact it is the other way around because it simply makes Jesus sacrifice simply just a legal thing.

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          • andrew says:

            Futureman, I’m not trying to insinuate that you’re trying to stumble someone. It’s just that the atonement value of Jesus’ blood is basic to the message of the bible.

            1 Cor. 15:3 “For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures,”

            It is an integral part of the gospel. If one doesn’t believe that Jesus’ sacrifice opens the door to reconciliation with God he has to reject most of the New Testament. The OT as well since the sacrifices pointed forward to his sacrifice. Jesus himself instituted the Lord’s supper.

            John 6:53 “So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.”

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          • FutureMan says:

            I would like to ask you all another question if I may.

            Do you think that Jesus approved of all the animal sacrifices that the Jews had made to God?

            What do you think?

            With Jesus love for all life including animals, would he have condoned animal sacrifice?

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          • greybeard says:

            Dear FutureMan,

            You asked:

            “Do you think that Jesus approved of all the animal sacrifices that the Jews had made to God?

            What do you think?

            With Jesus love for all life including animals, would he have condoned animal sacrifice?”

            My reply:

            Where do these types of questions end? Next the question might be, “Why would a God of love create animals that eat one another?”

            I would like to ask you a question. Have you found a new faith and if so what is it? Do you believe the Urantia Book? If this gets to deep we will need to take it to the forum 😉

            Your brother in Christ,
            Greybeard

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          • FutureMan says:

            I asked you a simple question, which only requires a yes or no.

            The question is and I will ask it again, since this is a forum that is suppose to allow freedom of speech, is :

            Do you think that Jesus approved of all the animal sacrifices that the Jews had made to God?

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          • andrew says:

            FutureMan:
            I asked you a simple question, which only requires a yes or no.

            The question is and I will ask it again, since this is a forum that is suppose to allow freedom of speech, is :

            Do you think that Jesus approved of all the animal sacrifices that the Jews had made to God?

            Animal sacrifices were never the desired end result.
            Isaiah 1:11 “”What to me is the multitude of your sacrifices? says the LORD; I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams and the fat of well-fed beasts; I do not delight in the blood of bulls, or of lambs, or of goats.”

            Animal sacrifices were used temporarily under the Law to point out the sinfulness of sin and to point the way to the once-for-all sacrifice of Jesus.

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          • greybeard says:

            Dear futureMan,

            This is a moderated forum as most are on the internet. It was created for JW’s who are struggling with their faith. Unlike other sites that allow atheists or unscriptural thought to dominate, we still hold to the Holy Bible as Gods word and ultimate authority.

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  4. disappointed says:

    Sister Ruth, my heart aches for you and your pain of separation from your loved ones. But you always remembered our Lord’s words at Mark 10:29,30.He will bless you I’m sure!
    And your words ring so true. We don’t go to the Organisation for salvation, we come to Jesus Christ our Lord!(Acts 4:12)
    Dear bro. Ed, that passage of scripture shows us so clearly that wisdom doesn’t come from men but from God who reveals it through his Holy Spirit!We need to let that Spirit work on our hearts and our minds while we examine the scriptures and test whether these things are so! (Acts 17:10,11).

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  5. ScatteredSheepsLamb says:

    Dear Bro. SIAM . The clincher for me? (That the GB no longer has Holy Spirit.) The deliberate covering over, even out right protecting of pedophiles in the congregation! Yes, our congregation had at lest one, at the time I was forced out. They say it is to, “avoid a bad witness.” Now, with this ongoing Court Case in Australia, (Check out the link below.) they don’t have a bad witness they have a, Blasphemous Witness! It is bad enough when the Catholic Church has a scandal, at lest they don’t have God’s most Holy Name connected directly to it! When I think about it…well I try not to! It is sooo distressing!! When you tell some one, “I’m one of Jehovah’s people.” What is the first thing they think? “Jehovah? Isn’t he the god of the Pedophile Paradise? “ Makes me kinda glad I’m disfellowshipped. Because if I wasn’t, I would need to dissociate myself for sure! I think the Lord is going to do something about is soon. Maybe he already is with the Australia Court Case and the Criminal Charges against the WT & GB. Jeremiah 2: 19 “Your own evil will punish you…”

    I just want to say to the Brothers and Sisters in Australia who are involved in this case or should be involved, Don’t be afraid to stand up and protect the children in your congregation. Jehovah will help you. Continue seeking is direction and praying for his help. You all have our thoughts and prayers.

    If any one wants to view the open letter to the Governing Body from the children in Australia, and more about the Court Case, go to: http://jwnews.net/

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    • Scatteredsheep says:

      My dear SS Lamb, I see you’re distressed and outraged by the plight of the JW children in Australia. Me too. Hopefully the court case will eventually receive the publicity it deserves. As Jesus said, ‘There is nothing secret that will not become known.’ (Matt. 10:26) People really need to know about this atrocity, this conspiracy of silence among the elders on the pedophile issue, as described by Bro. SIAM.

      As you know, I recently found a video on YouTube ( in 3 parts) of an Australian news program dealing with the child abuse cover up by JW elders. It’s by far the best news coverage I’ve ever seen on this issue. Not sure when the program was originally aired, but it sure ties in with what’s going on in Australia right now. And it supports what Bro. SIAM said so well that I wanted share it with the brothers & sisters here. So here’s the link: (Hope this works.)

      Part 1
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nO6s7hc40Ic

      Part 2
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v.....re=related

      Part 3
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v.....re=related

      Love,
      Scatteredsheep

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  6. John S says:

    I have much to say,but the Yuku security and I are at war.I wasted an hour typing a really heartfelt post for a response on one forum,and it got lost.I am really mad now,and burnt out for the time being so I can’t post now.Hang tite,though,I have some good things to say,but I’ll have to wait a couple days now to get back at the library again.I really hate having to type these messages in a muddy techno-universe we are meeting in.I am going to call for the Holy Spirit to give us the power to meet,and do what we need to do to get to be with one another.Mark my words brothers and sisters,the Holy Spirit is coming to start up something new so we can share together as one…..Look for the change,it is coming.He can and will move this mountain.I am so mad about this and I’m am going to go pray for a change to help us,as this computer communication has got to go!

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    • Bro. Ed says:

      Brother John, I understand your great frustration with the technology we are using to communicate. Your plight reminds me a little of our brother Paul’s frustrations. It must have been terrible to have issues writing his letters, relying on others to sit with him and pen his inspired words. An achievement for him was to be able to sign his name. But that didn’t stop him from communicating to all the brothers and sisters by using what was then the technological tool; pen and parchment.

      Brother John, please keep posting here “at the front”, as it has become known, and keep writing in your missing key language which I have affectionally dubbed “miskeylang”, because you have things to say that is building up the Body!

      With brotherly love

      Bro Ed

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      • Bro. Ed says:

        Brother John, I have just read your post on the Forum under the topic “Thursday Night Meeting” and it was wonderful and insightful. If this was the post you thought you lost, it wasn’t!

        Your brother in Christ

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  7. Wakeupwitness says:

    SIAM, you pretty much hit the nail on the head of the reasons why many of us left. The change in the generation thing is what personally did it for me.
    I just don’t see how the Society can put in print that it is Jehovah and jesus’ promise that the generation of 1914 will not all pass away before the end comes. Now, those people are dead!
    It’s amazing to see that witnesses are so blind that they can’t see for themselves that the governing body was under a “generational pressure” to change the meaning and time ran out.

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  8. John S. says:

    ===phone-no-2-JJ-we-go-by-wort

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  9. Disappointed says:

    Dear brother John, I concur with bro Ed. We love your posts, they are always upbuilding and encouraging even when you have had to write inventively with your broken keyboard! We value your insightful and loving words. Please don’t give up! Remember we all have to struggle through that narrow gate.. possible in more ways than we’d expect!! You are a shining light on these pages and we love you dear brother.

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  10. John S. says:

    —10-4-2-u-2-guy-n-gir

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  11. Bro. Ed says:

    Dear brothers and sisters, this message from our brother Paul is for those that have been cast out because of your sincere love of Christ. It is a message of encouragement to you if you cling to love in the face of adversity:

    “Some indeed preach Christ from envy and rivalry, but others from good will. The latter do it out of love, knowing that I am put here for the defense of the gospel. The former proclaim Christ out of rivalry, not sincerely but thinking to afflict me in my imprisonment.” (Philippians 1:15-17 ESV)

    We must preach Christ to others with all the good will we can muster, not out of rivalry, but out of pure love. Many who have been disfellowshipped because they are drawing attention to the Gospel of Christ instead of the Gospel of the Governing Body, are facing a form of imprisonment, cut off from their family and friends. Take heart in those words because our brother Paul suffered much more for the sake of preaching Christ. Know now that you are free, even though you may feel that you are locked up. God, our Father and our saviour Jesus Christ is with you. We are here together to share in the trials you are facing and you will be rewarded for your love and faith.

    Peace be with you all

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  12. Disappointed says:

    Such heartwarming words bro. Ed. We all need that encouragement every day. It’s so good to come here and feel that ‘inciting to love and fine works.’ Heb 10:24,25

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  13. Willie says:

    Dear Siam, I would like to comment on the last point in your list of points which was: “Even though you pray through Jesus to Jehovah, Jesus is not your mediator. This teaching is in print despite what the Bible says at 1 Tim. 2:5,6. The JWS video on this point explains this fallacy quite well.” Well, I do not know what reasoning is used on the JWS video, but I personally do not think that this is a fallacy. One must always consider TO WHOM or ABOUT WHOM a statement is made–whether it is a part of a verse, a whole verse, or several verses. This crucial point would eliminate a world of confusion in understanding the Scriptures.

    Hopefully everyone on this site agrees that Moses was the mediator between God and the Israelites and that Jesus is purposed to be “the mediator of a better covenant”/”a better testament” (Heb. 7:22; 8:6) when the Kingdom is inaugurated. Jesus will be the Mediator of the New Covenant with the same group, the Israelites, beginning with the Holy Remnant who survive Jacob’s trouble (Jer. 30:7). The remainder of the Jewish nation as they are raised from the dead will also be under the New Covenant (Jer. 31:31-34) which will replace the Old Law Covenant. Eventually all mankind will be under the New Law Covenant for the Kingdom will be Iraelitish. That is why the Bride is recorded in Rev. 7:2-8 to be named by the twelve tribes of Israel for the Gentiles were grafted in as we read in Romans 11:1-29, but they will receive the greater number of positions by far. How many converts to Christianity are recorded among the Jews in the New Testament? Five hundred via the preaching of Christ (I Cor. 15:6); about three thousand souls (Acts 2:41); and about five thousand (Acts 4:4) for a total of 8,500 before the Jews were rejected in general and the Gentiles were invited into the opportunity to live and reign with Christ. This is not to say that they all made their calling and election sure for the standard for that honor is extremely high and the vast majority fall into the mercy class of the Great Company, “for one star differeth from another star in glory” (I Cor. 15:41).

    A little reasoning should convince you that you can’t have a second “whatever” unless you have had a first “whatever”; and, likewise, you can’t have a new “whatever” unless you had an old “whatever.” God can’t logically make the Old Law Covenant with the Israelites and the New Law Covenant with another group of people–it just wouldn’t be “new as in second” in the sense of replacing the “old as in first” to the second group. This is important, so I hope this is understandable. Jer. 31:31 says it as plain as it can be said, “Behold the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah.” [This same verse is repeated in Hebrews 8:8, which please read in the context of its previous verses.]. Who was speaking here in Jeremiah? It was Jehovah, God Almighty, the LORD–not Jesus. Jesus deals with his Church, his Bride under the Grace Covenant. In I John 2:1 Jesus is the Advocate with the Father for his “little children”–not their Mediator. An Advocate pleads someone’s case as a lawyer does. Jesus represents us before the Heavenly Father’s throne as long as we are wearing his robe of righteousness which covers our sins for God cannot look upon evil. An Advocate is much more personal than a Mediator. Our Advocate Jesus presents our case to the Father, so that we receive permission to come personally (in spirit through prayer) before the throne of grace. A mediator does not do this. He talks to one person/group and then he leaves them and goes and talks to the other person/group. Only when the Mediatorial reign of Christ is completed (I Cor. 15:24-28) will all mankind be restored to perfection so that they can commune with their Creator face to face–that is as personally as Adam did before and after he was placed in the Garden of Eden (Gen. 1:27-31; 2:15-23)), for no man can see God and live (Exo. 33:20).

    Now to consider I Tim 2:5,6–what is the context? Who is Paul talking about in verses 1-6. What group or groups are mentioned in these verses? Is Paul talking about the Church? Let’s see…. Vs. 1 says “all men.” Vs. 2 explains WHICH men, namely kings, all in authority. Vs. 4 says “all men” again, certainly referring to men as in MANKIND because they are unsaved and Paul is saying to pray for them in vs. 1. We know {vs. 5} that “there is one God, and [since the death of Moses who was the mediator in the Old Testament] one mediator [in the future] between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; {vs. 6} Who gave himself a ransom [on the cross] for all [mankind] to be testified in due time; i.e., in the Kingdom Age–not here yet!.”

    We ARE in the Judgment Day, but the true Church must be judged first (I Pet. 4:17), the false Church (Babylon) second (Isa. 21:9), next the Great Company (Rev. 7:13-17), and lastly the Jews in Jacob’s trouble (Jer 30:7). Only then does the Kingdom on earth, ruled over by Christ and the Church (his bride) begin the mediation between God and mankind in general.

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    • Amos says:

      Brother Willie,
      Unless I’m mistaken, I think that perhaps you may have misunderstood what Br. Siam was saying.

      The point that you have brought up is in fact a viewpoint held by the current WTS. They are diminishing the role of our only mediator, & inserting themselves in His place.

      If I have misread you, I apologize in advance.

      Your brother,
      Amos

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    • Bro. Ed says:

      With all love I am going to say that yet again Willie you inject human wisdom into what is clear speaking on behalf of the Apostle Paul. It’s word play with a liberal dose of supposition. You have taken a perfectly clear doctrine and inserted a complex interpretation. Read for yourself the simple words of Paul:

      “First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way. This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time. For this I was appointed a preacher and an apostle (I am telling the truth, I am not lying), a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.” (1 Timothy 2:1-7 ESV)

      Where does Paul say that Christ is a future mediator? He says “there is one mediator” not “there will be one mediator”. The brothers and sisters here are coming to learn of our mediator Christ Jesus, because one organization has tried to deny them the power of his mediation. You are trying to reestablish another organizations and mans doctrine and in doing so you are again teaching another form of denial. I don’t understand why?

      Bro Ed

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  14. Hello Brother Siam,

    In your post you said,

    “Considering the published numbers of partakers and 1st Century Christians, it is mathematically impossible to have only 144,000 true chosen ones.”

    I am interested in hearing you elaborate on this statement if you will. In particular, the estimated number of 1st century annointed.

    Your brother,
    Dennis

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    • Amos says:

      Dennis Parker:
      Hello Brother Siam,

      In your post you said,

      “Considering the published numbers of partakers and 1st Century Christians, it is mathematically impossible to have only 144,000 true chosen ones.”

      I am interested in hearing you elaborate on this statement if you will. In particular, the estimated number of 1st century annointed.

      Your brother,
      Dennis

      Brother Dennis, I agree with your mathematics & this is where I can see the application of John 10: 16 “And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd.”

      I see the 144,000 as being the “Little flock” & the great crowd of Rev. 7:9 as being….”The Other Sheep”!

      I see this as the “Gentiles” (Other Sheep…the wild olive) being grafted into the “Body of Christ” the “cultivated olive”, & becoming “One Flock, One Shepherd”.

      This would then make “The Body” much greater than just 144,000.

      I just thought I’d add these points.

      Your brother,
      Amos

        (Quote)

      • Interesting prospective Amos. Any source material other than the Bible that helped lead you to this conclusion?

        Thanks for your comment,
        Dennis

        PS: In my comment I was looking for brother Siam to eloborate on estimates of the first century annointed. The mathamatics in quotes above my comment where his.

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        • Amos says:

          Hi Brother Dennis,

          Most of my thoughts originate from the bible, with the aid of the Holy Spirit directing my thoughts. This has been a long & ongoing road of discovery for me.
          The above view, is also linked to the opinion that the Faithful Ancients, are also a part of the 144,000. This would then quickly fill up the numbers (if they’re literal) during the 1st century. When we consider that the only verse that “could” hold credence for these “Ancients” to be princes in all the earth is, Ps. 45:16.
          IF this verse is actually talking about the Ancients, then it MUST be taken into consideration that they are members of the KINGS family, & if they are of the KINGS family, they would be in line for the throne.

          I then ask the question; “What about the princess as stated in Vs 13-15?” “Who is she?”

          Any thoughts on this chapter of Psalms?

          BTW, I didn’t realize that it was SIAM who raised the thought.

          Your brother, Amos

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    • SIAM says:

      Brother Dennis,

      The source of my assertion that it is mathematically impossible to have only 144,000 in heaven is here: http://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/144000.php

      The scriptures (Heb. 11:16) seem to indicate that faithful men of old had their hope in Heaven.

      Your brother SIAM

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  15. DanielB says:

    Hi Dennis . Not meaning to interrupt , I recall this subject with much discussion during the following post : http://www.jwstruggle.com/2011.....he-144000/

    One point is that The Revelation could be saying that the full 144,000 number is alive in human form at the end time .

    . . . brother Dan

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  16. John S says:

    Brothers and sisters,hey,all,I’m borrowing son’s laptop for few minutes,to say thanks for the backslaps and hugs,and I will get a new laptop soon,don’t worry.For those who’ve seen my voluminous posts before,I say with them,hey,he just needs to shut up and listen a while anyway!….And you know what? I agree with them!So I have been reading more and enjoying hearing other people’s expressions.When I get some more time,as it’s late,I’ll post more out front and on the forum.I love you all.Brother Dennis,it’s good to hear your voice again.Brother Futureman,…I want to open a forum post on the operation of the Holy Spirit,and want you to get on it…please.There are also some far-out things we could really talk about on my e-mail;johnstoutenburg@gmail.com…I read one of your posts last year and want to tell you some things I think are too crazy for even the forum viewing.You seem to be almost as crazy as me,….but I think I got you beat…Sister Disappointed,do you think we could switch your name over to Sister Deborah now?I’d like that too.You mentioned that as a better ficticious name.I am trying to get a new computer,but had 2 jobs renege on paying this year…5 whole weeks work down the drain,and just paid property taxes this week,so I’m climbing out of poverty slowly but steadily.Thanks for the thoughts toward me,all.I am trying to avoid the miskeyslang(Ed).I look back on those comments,and I can’t even understand them.I have a comment for the forum on the woman in Revelation,so I gotta go there and post for sister Disappointed(Sharon?).Lastly,wanna give a shout out to our dearest sister Confused who is discouraged over family shunning.We are HERE FOR YOU as new brothers and and sisters and friends who stick closer than any brothers,so how can we help?Just say the word,we bleed in our hearts for you,as we,too,are being shunned just like you,and we know how it hurts!Hold onto prayer like your life depends on it…cause it does!The Holy Spirit will come flying right into your heart and will wrap right around it and squeeze you in the best hug you’ve ever had in your life,and the heartache and tears will just MELT away.Do it,young lady,it’ll help,….promise.Love you girl.OK I’m outta here like water off a hot skillett…ssssssssssssssssssss

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    • SIAM says:

      Hi Willie,

      The sad truth is that the Society teaches that Jesus is not the Mediator for all mankind in contrast with 1 Tim. 2:5,6. John 3:16 is clear that the ransom and Christ’s intercession on our behalf applies to all humans.

      It is probably the single most wrong doctrine that the Society promotes because is affects 7.5 million people’s relationship with the Father and the Son.

      Your Bro, SIAM

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    • FutureMan says:

      Brother John, I trust that I am not too crazy for everyone here.

      But then what is craziness?

      Some of the Jews thought that Jesus was crazy, for what he was speaking about to them.

      Not that I can even can begin to compare myself to the magnificence of the Creator Son of God, but if you come up with different concepts or understanding sometimes people really do think that you are crazy or even possessed by the Devil, as the Pharisees accused Jesus of being.

      I will send you an email to the email address that you posted soon as I get the chance to brother John.

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  17. Willie says:

    Gentleman, If I misunderstood Siam, I apologize. Other than commonsense examples, my comment was taken straight from the Bible–check out the Scriptures given. My position has nothing to do with any organization.

    Are you saying that you would rather call Jesus your Mediator than your Advocate? I don’t know how much experience you may, or may not, have had with the legal system in this present evil world, but a mediator is not supposed to be “for” either side, a mediator is a go-between; whereas your lawyer, your “advocate” is supposed to be “on your side–right or wrong.” I’m not saying that this applies to our Saviour, but you can use the dictionary to see the difference in meaning. If you think that I am making this argument a matter of semantics, I beg to disagree, for not knowing that consecrated/anointed individuals have Jesus as their Advocate, instead of their Mediator, causes such individuals to also misunderstand the Covenants for each LAW covenant has its own mediator–Moses for the Old (Law) Covenant and Jesus (and the Church) for the New (Law) Covenant.

    Meanwhile, the Church has its own covenant–the Grace Covenant–for neither can we keep the law in our own imperfect fleshly bodies. Rom. 6: 14 says, “For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.” “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast” (Eph. 2:8,9). Eph. 3:2 speaks of “the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me [Paul] to you-ward [the Gentiles].” What dispensation of the grace of God could that be but the Gospel Age?

    We have been concentrating on I Tim. 2:5 which clearly is not using the future tense and is just as clearly NOT SPEAKING OF THE CONSECRATED. Read it again. What about Gal. 3:20 which says, “Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one”? Heb. 8:6-12 makes it plain in vs. 8 (Jer. 31:33), vs. 10, and vs. 12 that the New Covenant is future: “I WILL….” Heb. 9:15 says, “And for this cause he [Jesus] is the mediator of the new testament [the New Law Covenant], that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament [the Old Law Covenant], they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.” No one could keep the law but Jesus; therefore, no one could get eternal life under the law–even though the Israelites were God’s chosen people. With Jesus having already qualified and possessing the authority to be the Mediator of the New Covenant by shedding his blood, his church is also promised eternal life since she is covered by that same blood (Luke 22:20) which will cover the world of mankind in the Kingdom Age (Mark 14:24).

    Hebrews 12:22-28 is an excellent example of statements being made in regard to the church of the firstborn as though they were present tense (vss. 22-24 and 26-28)–when any thinking person knows that these events are in the future for the church for it is not yet complete. Vs. 28 says, “Wherefore we [the church] receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace….” Certainly we have not YET received a kingdom, only the promise of it–if we remain faithful to the end of our course. It is similar to Isa. 21:9, Rev. 14:8 and Rev. 18:2 which all say, “Babylon is fallen, is fallen….” to indicate to us that Babylon HAS fallen from FAVOR, though she has not yet fallen from POWER and GONE to destruction; in others words, it is LEGALLY–but not yet ACTUALLY–a “DONE DEAL”! This method of expression is used throughout the Bible.

    I John 2:1 says, “My little children [clearly a reference to the consecrated for Jesus used the phrase, “little children,” in John 13:33 when he was talking to his disciples], these things write I unto you that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.” Since Jesus is our Advocate, we pray DIRECTLY to the Father by using Jesus’ NAME and MERIT. I would rather claim Jesus as my Advocate now, while hoping to reign with him when he is the Mediator of the New Covenant during the Kingdom Age. “Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection; on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him…” (Rev.20:6).

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    • Amos says:

      Brother Willie,

      I wont argue with you over these ludicrous claims that originated with the pastor. If you do a proper word study of the only close verse in the entire bible to support this falsehood, that Jesus is our “Advocate” & NOT our “Mediator”, then you will undoubtedly find that he is in fact both!
      The verse that has been erroniously used by Russell, & all subsequent BS’s is found at 1 Jn. 2:1; “My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;”.
      What you folk fail to do is read the continuation of this thought in the next verse, &/or split the part b of verse 2 off.
      Verse 2 reads; “and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.”

      This about gross error is but one of several reasons that I chose to withdraw my association from the BS’s, as the Spirit very clearly pointed out to me the error of some of Russell’s doctrines. The final clincher for me is when I was told by several BS’s that I should stop reading the bible, & concentrate on reading Russell’s volumes. Russell himself said this in a Watchtower in the early 1900′, I have a copy of this in the reprints & also on the BS’s CD.
      Can you get any more “heretical” than this, instruct others to stop reading the bible, in favour of a man’s writings???

      BTW, I noticed that you didn’t address us as “Brothers”, but as “Gentlemen”. I see this as elitist.

      Your brother in the Lord,
      Amos

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  18. Siam says:

    I had the unfortunate occasion of serving on a judicial committee regarding an abuse case.  Of course, the first thing you must do as an Elder is to call the legal department. Without saying too much, I can say that there is no doubt that the society understands how much liability they have with these cases. 

    The branch rep told me to “never send written correspondence to the legal department about the case”. I asked “why, because a telephone call can’t be subpoenaed?” the lawyer chuckled and said “something like that” 

    It was then that I realized without a doubt that the organization was only interested in protecting its assets, and reputation. Any concern for the victims were secondary. 

    How can this be the channel that God is using if they refuse to stand up for what is right no matter what the cost? 

    Your Brother SIAM

    Scatteredsheep:
    My dear SS Lamb, I see you’re distressed and outraged by the plight of the JW children in Australia. Me too. Hopefully the court case will eventually receive the publicity it deserves. As Jesus said, ‘There is nothing secret that will not become known.’ (Matt. 10:26) People really need to know about this atrocity, this conspiracy of silence among the elders on the pedophile issue, as described by Bro. SIAM.

    As you know, I recently found a video on YouTube ( in 3 parts) of an Australian news program dealing with the child abuse cover up by JW elders.It’s by far the best news coverage I’ve ever seen on this issue.Not sure when the program was originally aired, but it sure ties in with what’s going on in Australia right now.And it supports what Bro. SIAM said so well that I wanted share it with the brothers & sisters here.So here’s the link:(Hope this works.)

    Part 1
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nO6s7hc40Ic

    Part 2
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v.....re=related

    Part 3
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v.....re=related

    Love,
    Scatteredsheep

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  19. confused says:

    SIAM,
    Thank you brother for such a good article, speaking only from my experience, leaving has been very painful….I wanted to find something worth staying in the org but I found nothing good. A theology system built on some crazy ideas that are not Bible based….I dont believe they have EVER been directed by God and I base this on many of the reasons Siam stated and my own research. Emotionally, its been a tail spin….not fitting in anymore, being shunned, and finding most people dont understand the “thinking process” of a wittness. Im am just now able to communicate to a couple of other people who have left the watchtower “theology concept” but who still have strong ties. This theological concept held by a corporation (the org) has hurt and broken many families…I am still trying to form my thoughts and opinions from the Bible and not “men”…I served God when I was in the org out of FEAR and GUILT, I dont want to do that anymore but the sad thing is, is that I feel like God is a gulf away from me, I want to feel close to him but I dont and I wonder why all the time…..when I was in the org, I was “robotic” like everyone else and cared more about the “appearance” than my relationship with our Creator.. and yes I do believe we must turn to Jesus as our mediator…its what the Bible says to do….the org insist that we must turn to them (as they are the only true religion)….and so many prophesies refer to THEM……wow, I wounld not want to be in their shoes on judgement day….

    Sister Ruth….I read your comments and I understand loss and pain, I am here for you sister if you need a friend or someone to reach out to.

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  20. Anonymous says:

    Siam,
    In responding to your comment above….I agree with you, its all about protecting WHO? Yeah, not the children. I abhor lies and deceit….something the org has become masters at doing.

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  21. greybeard says:

    Thank you SIAM for another great article!

    Dear brothers, I myself have been guilty of debating on these blogs however we have discussed this issue before and have decided that it would be best to debate on the FORUM or directly by email. This is a blog that many come to to learn TTATT. I feel it is a good reminder to consider Paul’s words to Timothy at 2:Timothy 2:14, “Keep reminding them of these things. Warn them before God against quarreling about words; it is of no value, and only ruins those who listen.” I also believe labeling others and saying “you are wrong” is really of no value and will turn others away as well as debating about words. Please consider, when making any statement, let it be known that this “is your opinion”. Others respect that much more. Everyone is entitled to an opinion but when we come across as we are right and you are wrong, in a public place like this, what good do we do? Are we not acting like the very ones we are trying to expose? Please brothers, do not use this blog as a “soap box” to expound personal views as facts that all other must except. The scriptures speak for themselves and are very powerful. ISAIAH 44:25, 26 is very clear about who God uses as his true messengers, “I am . . . the One making the word of his servant come true, and the One that carries out completely the counsel of his own messengers.” The last messengers that I personally know of that fits this category is Christ Jesus and his apostles. Personally I follow Christ and no man as my leader as Jesus was clear on this instruction. (Matthew 23:10) So when any man or group of men try to teach or lead me to follow them, I know better and who my only leader is. Please let us be humble, loving and respectful in all we say and do on this public blog and forum. Please consider how our words will effect others who visit for the first time. That applies to me as much as anyone as I have been guilty of debating here when I should have taken it to the forum or kept it private through e-mail.

    Said in Christian love,
    Your brother in Christ,
    Greybeard

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  22. confused says:

    Just want to share with you a quick experience I had this weekend. So, I decided to attend a talk in a nearby town given by a man very knowlegable about the Bible, the topic was on the book of Romans and why its of value to us. It peeked my interest so I attended. I found the information very well presented but my REACTION to just a simple comment made by the speaker made me raise my hand….he simply said “the Bible says in Genisis the creative DAYS”….well, that was all it took….sent me right back to my “witness” thinking….what did I do? raised my hand like a FOOL and said in front of everyone “dont you think the creative days, were not literal but rather much longer, the Bible talks about one day with Jehovah being a thousand years”….it was SO UNIMPORTANT AND TRIVIAL…..everyone looked at me like I was purple or something. It had no value at all. It was just so automatic, to CORRECT or rather PICK apart everything. I put my head down, and got up and walked away. I know this automatic response will get better. Im just sharing this with you only because I think it takes a while to get rid of old thought patterns. Im not going to attend anything for quite sometime. One man was kind and said “I get what your saying but is it important?” I smiled and walked on.

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  23. confused says:

    Bro Greybeard,
    I just saw your post….I apologize for my comments. I sincerely did not mean to offend ANYONE, I should of kept my thoughts to myself. This is a good site for info. :)
    I did not mean to come across like I know anything, for I do not.

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    • greybeard says:

      Dear sister,

      I wasn’t thinking of you at all 😉 nor was I pointing at anyone in particular. We all come across as we are right and others are wrong sometimes. I know I have myself. I am just reminding myself and others to consider how new ones to this site react to our words. Debate is healthy and good in the right place. I always enjoy your comments sister. You have not offended anyone that I know of.

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  24. confused says:

    Greybeard,
    Thanks, good to know. I thought my comments perhaps were too direct. Good reminder for us all though. Look forward to your next article too….. :)

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  25. FutureMan says:

    In answer to Greybeard’s question, I will answer in this way.

    I am a reader of the Urantia book and have studied it for over a year now.

    I do believe that it is a book worthy of consideration as to progressing the truth about God and about his Son.

    Your reaction to me in this has shown how deep your Jehovah’s Witnesses conditioning is ingrained in your psyche as it was with me at one time.

    Yes you can take it to the forum, but I am not even a member of the forum, as I just post here believing that it is a forum that is interested in pursuing the truth, no matter where it leads to.

    Now I do not yet know just how much to believe of this book as I do have a couple of questions as to some of the content, but generally I believe it to reveal a lot of what is the truth.

    Now I do studied the Bible as well in conjunction with this book.

    I know longer believe that the Bible as a whole is an inspired book of God and neither do I believe the Urantia book to be inspired of God.

    However I do believe that God’s Word is contained within the pages of the Bible as I also now is coming to accept God’s thinking within the pages of the Urantia book.

    In fact the book itself says that we should not accept it on face value as an inspired book but to read it and objectively evaluate it.

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    • Bro. Ed says:

      FutureMan, I’m deeply saddened that you have accepted the wisdom of men above the word of God. I am grieving for your soul that you no longer believe that the “Bible as a whole is an inspired book of God.” Even though you don’t believe the Urantia book is inspired, you are developing your faith in nothing less than new age Gnostic enlightenment.

      When Jesus said, “You will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.” (John 8:31-32) it was not a license to pursue self-enlightenment. Self-enlightenment leads us to the wrong conclusion, that being we are gods. So many early Christians fell into the deep pit of “self-enlightement” the Gnostics preached. It is your prerogative to pursue any teaching, but if this blessed gathering of Christians, who put their faith in the entire word of God, is subjected to the false teachings of men I will firstly oppose it (as I am doing) and then I will withdraw from it.

      Bro Ed

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      • Amos says:

        Br. Ed,

        I must support & endorse your reply to Futureman.

        God’s word, the Holy Bible, is the inspired word of God, there is no disputing this fact.

        Gnosticism has resurfaced in modern times in the form of the “new age movement” in particular. I see this as part of satan’s last ditch attempt at taking as many as possible, away from any form of pure worship.

        Your brother in Christ,
        Amos

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        • Disappointed1 says:

          Brothers, I’d like to add my thoughts to this too. As humbly as I can. I feel that the early christians had many who were going after the modern philosophy and teachings of the Greek world at the time.It was dangerous and taking away from and adding to the Word of God’. (Col 2:8)We must be careful not to do the same. ALL scripture is inspired of God. (2 Tim 3:16,17). I believe that is the one thing all of us on this website have in common. Of course it is every individuals right to read and believe what they choose. But I believe that here we are all lovers of God, Christ and God’s Holy Scriptures. For me anything else deviates from that and allows place for the Devil.
          Humbly your sister in Christ

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          • Amos says:

            Sister Disappointed1,

            Thank’s for your thoughts & support.
            Never hesitate to post your views, I for one consider the Sisters comments to be just as valuable as those of the brothers.
            In the body of Christ, I see no distinction between the genders.

            Hasn’t it been stated, “You are ALL brothers”?

            Didn’t Phillips 4 daughters “Pray & prophecy”?

            Your brother in Christ,
            Amos

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      • FutureMan says:

        Yet brother Ed you said that a previous post of mind was inspiring, where do you think I got this information from, my own puny brain?

        No this is not a gnostic book, though it does have an appearance to some.

        I have read gnostic writings and this is not the same.

        It stands on it’s own.

        I still do follow scriptures in the Bible and I do quote them where it has relevance.

        We must not treat the Bible as an idol, or any other book for that matter.

        Who do we worship God or the Bible, who do we follow, Jesus or the apostles?

        Who grants eternal life, the apostles or Jesus?

        You decide this for yourself.

          (Quote)

    • greybeard says:

      Dear FutureMan,

      You are our brother and you are welcome here. We have much in common raised the way we were. You said, “I just post here believing that it is a forum that is interested in pursuing the truth, no matter where it leads to.” I can understand what you are saying but the truth is we do not all believe the same “truth”. For many, atheism is the “truth”. So many JW’s have given up on God because of their experience being raised as a JW. The internet forums are full of xjw atheists and agnostics. That is the “truth” they were lead to. We will not allow this forum to be dominated by those types of teachings. Personally I admire your open mindedness and testing out what are considered as “inspired expressions”. However we need to be careful with this. I read a book one time, trying to be open minded, that weakened my faith. After much prayer and consideration I overcame curtain doubts that were bothering me proposed in that book. One thing that most all who post on this site believe is, “Jesus is the truth, way and the life”. John 14:6

      Your brother in Christ,
      Greybeard

        (Quote)

  26. Anonymous says:

    Want to give a shout out to my little sister confused.Love your humble attitude sister.Why in my day I raised my hand and questioned many elders and circuit overseers ,so don’t feel bad.If I had a question,my hand went up automatically,my wife and kids felt like crawling under the seat,they just hated me to do that.But my questions always went right to the heart of the matter,and many of the real thinkers in every congregation openly admired my honesty and outspokenness.It was the truth I was after,and I didn’t want to humiliate anybody,I thought meetings were of brothers and sisters.But the Witnesses made it into a clergy thing,this elder/circuit overseer/Governing Body rulership has long overshadowed any close brotherhood that could have grown but now is dying.

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  27. Willie says:

    Dear Amos, I regret that you interpreted my use of the word “Gentlemen” as a gesture of elitism. Such was not the case. If I recall correctly, I was addressing comments made by two or three different persons, all of whom I perceived to be male, but not having the time to re-read everything and pick out the names I used the word “gentlemen.” I’m sorry you were offended.

    As for the word “advocate” only being in the Bible once–shall we disregard all other words that are used in the Bible only once?

    I did not mention Pastor Russell in my comments, but since you brought up the subject I remind you that the Internation Bible Students have never been under the umbrella of an organization and I certainly did not say or insinuate that an organization was to be your “advocate”! I did say: “Since Jesus is our Advocate, we pray DIRECTLY to the Father by using Jesus’ NAME and MERIT.” I also said: “With Jesus having already qualified and possessing the authority to be the Mediator of the New Covenant by shedding his blood, his church is also promised eternal life since she is covered by that same blood (Luke 22:20) which will cover the world of mankind in the Kingdom Age (Mark 14:24).” Please point out to me the fallacy of those statements.

    How many times have I said that just because I defend Pastor Russell it does not mean that I think he was infallible. Almost every word that came out of his mouth for 40 years seems to be recorded permanently somewhere. He did mispeak sometimes; he wrote two different ways on the same subject if he grew in knowledge and discernment, and he was a human being. How many of us would like for all of our words to be written down for all the world to read for over a hundred years? That would probably find us eating a few words along the line ourselves. What matters is the overall message of an individual, which one cannot get from biased sources, which, in regard to Pastor Russell, is about all the JWs have access to, it seems. Even the majority of Bible Students are not a good source when trying to find out what CTR taught for many rarely go beyond 1904 when the Sixth Volume was published in their studies. Charles Russell’s later years were a much better relection of his mature reasoning on the Scriptures. For instance, this is found in the Watch Tower of July 30, 1916 (R 5919:6): “The kingdom cannot come until the royal family is ready to take the throne. Jesus, indeed, has long been ready; but in harmony with the Father’s plan he has waited and has been doing a work in the preparation of the church, his brethren, who are to be his joint-heirs in the kingdom–otherwise styled ‘the bride, the Lamb’s wife.'” Most Bibile Students believe that the kingdom began in 1874. It is my belief that the Kingdom is future like the Pastor taught in this instance.

    Have you read this quote that Charles T. Russell made? It is in the Convention Sermons Report, Special Meeting for Pilgrims, p. 125 – “I remind you again of the Scripture in Revelations where the Church is pictured, which we called attention to, I believe, thirty years ago. John, the revelator, who was seeing these things, fell down to worship the angel who showed them to him, and the angel said, ‘See thou do it not; worship God; I am thy fellow-servant.’ And so, dear friends, if our Heavenly Father and our Heavenly Lord have used Brother Russell in any measure he is very glad and very thankful to be used. And if the Lord is pleased to use him any more, he will be glad to be used down to the last breath, but he does not want any worship, he does not want any undue adoration, he does not want any praise.” Thus we see that “Russell Worship” is nothing new for it was alive and well in the Pastor’s day and continues today among most of the Bible Students. I am adamant that I do not fall into that catagory.

    What I write here is my opinion.

      (Quote)

    • Amos says:

      Dear brother Willie,

      Sorry to say, you still can’t refer to US as “brothers”, this is very obvious. You waffled on about not knowing how many or who they were, when a simple; “Brothers” would have covered every one including the Sister, as the body of Christ are a “Brotherhood”!
      Likewise, I don’t recall you ever signing off as “Your Brother” ETC. I find this quite disturbing, to say the least.

      I’m not going to engage in triffles with you, as you are very clever at weaving your way around not answering our questions directly.

      I have never joined any forum/blog for the purpose of arguing with fellow posters. My sole purpose is to enjoy peace, spiritual fellowship, encouragement & comfort.

      I hope you understand what I’m saying.

      Your brother in the Lord,
      Amos

        (Quote)

      • greybeard says:

        Not all men/women express affection the same way. I believe the fact that Willie is here sharing his scriptural hope shows that he loves all of us does it not? My own father hardly ever says he loves me but I know he does and when I say I love him, he says it back. We all have different personalities and ways of expressing ourselves so please try to “enjoy peace” and not be to disturbed at others lack of expressions we might expect giving them the benefit of the doubt. 😉

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  28. confused says:

    Anonymous,
    Thanks brother….I appreiciate that. I am learning so much right now, I love our Lord, Im just trying to get some things settled in my process. I am now careful as to what I read, since we were not “allowed” to read other than what the org told us to and TO NOT browse the web….so I find myself very unfamiliar with names. An example is Charles Finny…I came across that on the web about a month ago and as I first started reading, it seemed to make sense UNTIL he stated ‘we can live a sinless life’….wow!!! bunch of unscriptual nonsense. When I wake up in the morning and roll out of bed ive already sinned…..I need guidance from above all day, everyday. I do need some help with some personal questions that I need help in understanding such as being ‘born again’ but I know I have a couple people that I can go to via email to get some understanding that I trust.
    I heard Andrew’s download from this site here yesterday on his personal experience, I did not find that on the site here until just yesterday, it was very interesting. I hope that JWstuggle can add more to their list of audio downloads. The video put out on youtube was awesome…..good stuff and a great help too.

      (Quote)

  29. ruth says:

    My Dearest Bros and sisters.
    Paul warns us to be on the alert, to stand firm in faith!
    Act like men and woman, be strong. Let ALL that you do be done in love.
    Do not be deceived Bad association spoil useful habits. True Christians will defend the truth though. They ache in there hearts for the true faith to stand above deception.

    If Christ is not mentioned! our preaching is in vain. Why?
    because everything is about him. for him, in him.

    If we depend on what conclusions others come to, then we are missing the whole point. Having a personal one on one relationship with Jesus and letting him be our teacher our guide is the only way to go. How do we do that?
    Letting the spirit of our Lord show us. Listening to each nudge.
    When we have it right reading and mediating the spirit in us leaps for joy. That is one indication.
    Paul again says.
    May I remind you that no one can say Jesus is Lord except by the holy spirit. NO one!

    Does that mean we are all right in our findings? No. But what it does mean is Many are chosen but few are called. There will be a separation even here on the struggle.
    Following man instead of our creator is Idolatry.

    There fore brothers flee from idolatry says Paul.
    All to the glory of God.
    Please Read 1 Corinthians 10:23 “Let no one seek there own good.
    Love you.
    Big hugs Sister Ruth.

      (Quote)

  30. John S says:

    Brother Futureman….please hold on to us,and don’t be stumbled.I know you are an avid reader and you will come to good conclusions.We love you and don’t want to lose you,don’t worry,you’ll get what you’re looking for;TRUTH.You just like to shop around before you buy…that’s good! I love you man!…..Ed ,come on now,simmer down a little.You know I come off with some wacky theories too.We are all trying to grow in faith based on accurate knowledge.He’s been burnt badly like we all have,and is suspicious and wants to test out every inspired utterance,right? I love you too man!

      (Quote)

    • FutureMan says:

      Thanks John for your kind words and encouragement.

      Sometimes I feel like an odd bird that is among a flock of birds who are similar in looks.

      I am one who is seeking the truth and I will go to where the spirit leads me to go.

      At this stage it is leading me in this direction that I’m going in.

      I do not know whether this is the real thing or a sign post to the real thing.

      What I mean is that it (The Urantia Book)could contain a lot of truth, but as yet may not be the truth in the real sense of the word.

      As Brother Russell once said that even the Devil has some truth, it is just that he twists it to his advantage.

      Having said this, I have scrutinized the book from front cover to back cover, well in a general sense anyway and find it hard to believe that it could ever be written by demonic angels.

      But anything is possible and it does need to be considered.

      But as the saying goes, “the proof is in the pudding”

      I had realized a long time ago now even before I had come across the Urantia book that the Bible was not as inspired as it is made out to be.

      This is not to say that it is not a valuable book for our spiritual education today.

      But to adhere to all the words of the Bible as if inspired of God, based on one scripture, in my opinion is a fallacy and a trap for us and so we will not progress to the truth this way.

      We must be willing to step outside the box and look at things objectively and see things for what they are.

      We must also be willing to unplug ourselves from the matrix of deception that has being built up first by the Jewish system and then Christendom’s religious system (Jehovah’s Witnesses included) and has blinded the world now for over 1900 years or so.

      This veil has blinded our minds to the truth for so long and I do believe that it is now time to take it of or uncover this veil.

        (Quote)

  31. ruth says:

    Brother John and FutureMan
    I am so surprised with some things you both say.
    Bro Ed is not feeling he does not have love nor sympathy for any individual here.
    As a lover up holding the bible being the word of God is a must. No one I know would dare to say the holy bible is something we would treat as an idol! Yes we adore the little books.
    Out of the mouth the heart speaks. Those beautiful 66 little books our father put to-gether are like a valuable pearls to us.

    If we are asked to die for one another. We must be true believers
    upholding to death our love for what the father is doing for us through these precious writings.
    Anyone even to suggest: Who do we worship, God or the Bible, who do we follow, Jesus or the apostles? Is so way out of line with true believers.

    I think you FutureMan just want to bring controversy instead of the love of Christ. Simple Christians are not weak Christians.
    l do thank you for caring for me. But if you try to redirect the fathers word! Your kindness falls on deaf ears.
    Ruth

    For you to even suggest bro Ed would deliberately stumble futureMan is ridiculous Bro John.

      (Quote)

    • FutureMan says:

      Ruth my sister in the faith, I am not here to cause controversy, I am here to progress the truth, that is all.

      Truth by it’s very nature can be quite controversial because sometimes it does reveals to us what is false.

      I am not attacking anyone on this forum dear sister, but you are attacking me because I present my view of the truth as I see it.

      I am not denying the Christ or our Heavenly Father, quite to the contrary.

      True I am using a source that you are unfamiliar with, and it is a fact that the majority here are unfamiliar with it, yet it has being around in print for over 55 years now.
      But sometimes truth comes from a direction that you don’t even expect.

      And when you speak of Idolatry, be careful that it is not the Bible that has become your Idol and an object of worship instead of our Heavenly Father.

        (Quote)

  32. John S. says:

    —-10-4-i-opollogise-to-Bro-Ed——-worry-bout-Futurennon—Bro-Ed-is-strong-enuf-to-tek-sonne-heet—-but-u-r-right–

      (Quote)

    • Bro. Ed says:

      Peace be with you brother John. I’ve broad shoulders :) My words however stand as do sister Ruth and brother Amos. I know we all have our ideas, some of them appearing a bit out there. Indeed for many Witnesses, the belief in a heavenly calling beyond 144,000 is simply insane. And so many here will read what we have to say about us belonging to Christ, the 144k, the Holy Spirit etc and some often rise to “righteous indignation” and use harsh words against us – as they do here, from time to time. Pray that my words were not harsh, but rather they were firm with all the love I can offer.

      As I said earlier, we all have the right to seek out our own salvation and come to whatever conclusions we come to, but as for me, I hold this one scripture as my defense, “1 I wish you would bear with me in a little foolishness. Do bear with me! 2 For I feel a divine jealousy for you, since I betrothed you to one husband, to present you as a pure virgin to Christ. 3 But I am afraid that as the serpent deceived Eve by his cunning, your thoughts will be led astray from a sincere and pure devotion to Christ. 4 For if someone comes and proclaims another Jesus than the one we proclaimed, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or if you accept a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it readily enough. 5 Indeed, I consider that I am not in the least inferior to these super-apostles. 6 Even if I am unskilled in speaking, I am not so in knowledge; indeed, in every way we have made this plain to you in all things.

      12 And what I am doing I will continue to do, in order to undermine the claim of those who would like to claim that in their boasted mission they work on the same terms as we do. 13 For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. 15 So it is no surprise if his servants, also, disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds.” 2 Corinthians 11:1-6, 12-15 (ESV)

      Your brother in Christ

        (Quote)

  33. ruth says:

    Brothers

    It is not about correction when it comes to right out trying to start another way of thinking regarding the real truth,or agreeing with someone who takes advantage to move Christ out and put Mr Russell in. Or perhaps backs up someone who suggests “Who do we worship, God or the Bible, who do we follow, Jesus or the apostles?
    Is so way out of line with true believers. It grieves there very souls.
    Why do some here push Bro Russell? What does he have to do with Jesus or Jesus being the way the truth. There is only one way.

    To promote another is simply wrong and pushing our own agenda. Some things certain people say sends chills down my spine. We cannot be weak and sit back and let this happen. Minimizing, NEVER.
    Expressing Or indoctrinating? We are not fools. Never came down in the last shower.
    Yes some are certainly sincere so sincere. But sincerity does not bring eternal life. Its what Jesus says we should do and the way we should say things. Promoting him. His eternal love and devotion. That’s the difference. We cannot stand in two corners at the one time. No time for tickling ears.
    I think if people go out there way to promote any man they are heading for real trouble.
    I would hate it if new ones looking in jumped out of the frying pan into the fire.
    Not understanding the true liberty in Christ.
    “Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage” Gal. 5:1

    And by the way!
    “Its not a free for all” when it comes to the simple gospel.
    Col 2:8
    I would die to keep the simple gospel in its right place. That is what it means to me. (I would stand before Kings and tell them they are wrong that’s what truth means to me.
    In actual facts I have stood before a Ministers of parliament and told them about Jesus and the simple gospel, Guess what? They listened. Did they take heed? no
    We have not gone through all the pain in staying loyal for nothing.

    So why would we lovers of our Lord and saviour not defend him.
    Replacing him with men?

    NEVER.
    I do not want to hurt. I love you with all my heart.
    I just love my Lord more.
    Your sister Ruth.

      (Quote)

  34. ruth says:

    FutureMan.

    Ephesians 6:17 We are commanded to put on the suit of Armour.
    Once you understand the full armour of God you will understand the spirit speaking into your ears.

    The holy books divides people reaching right into their hearts.
    As a sword that cuts through to the marrow it cleans and sharpens our love @ Devotion. The little books are a Light in front of our eyes. Take our bible away perhaps! But now we have the love of our father indelibly written on our hearts because of these precious pearls.
    ======================
    Prayer

    Oh divine father with all my heart I appreciate Your written word. Being able to read and listen as you talk to me and others through these precious books brings such a great honour to our souls.
    We would never throw about your words like they were meaningless but love and adore them.
    Thank you holy father. Love from your daughter Patricia (Ruth)

      (Quote)

    • FutureMan says:

      Ruth, I am in full agreement with this scripture that you quoted in Ephesians 6:17, and you will find with me also that I do love God’s “word”, when I recognize it as his word through listening to what the spirit says to me.

      But God’s word is not just in the Bible. It is everywhere that we discern God’s spirit to be speaking to us.

      Indeed God’s word can even speak out to us through creation whether it be here on the earth or up there in our starry Night sky.

      My own wife for a long time did not understand me as I would criticize parts of the Bible and yet highlight another part of the Bible as of real value.

      That is with the old testament as well as the New testament.

      I treat them both the same, though I am more inclined to the New teastament when it comes to the word of God, through Jesus.

      It would appear Ruth that you are more of a fundamentalist Christian worshiper of God.

      That is not criticizing you, it is just an observation of mine.

      We are not all the same.

      I am not so religious in that sense and I see the world and our universe quite differently to you.

      We cannot all see everything the same way, even how we view God.
      Each of us see God with our own individual personality.

      You might see God with more spiritual eyes where as I see him through more of a scientific matter of fact way.

      You see God in every word of the Bible, I see God where I expect him to be.

      You see the bible as something to revere, I see the Bible as a book of value where I’m not obligated to just accept what I read as truth or God’s word just because an imperfect man even though an apostle, once stated that “all scriptures are inspired of God”

      It is the same with those who call themselves anointed today, do we just accept their word as being inspired of God just because they are of the anointed?

      The same goes for every word of the prophets, do we accept every word of theirs just because they were said to be prophets of God?

      Don’t you think that we should use our own thinking faculties and discernment when it come s to listening to words of men even though they claim to be of God?

        (Quote)

  35. Chris says:

    Dear Futureman

    I understand your need to search for truth. It would be fair to say that all who have come out from the yoke of the WTS feel a yearning for honesty in what they believe. In some ways it can be a reflex action to question everything from Adam to Armageddon and put the torch to our faith to see what other falsehoods have been foisted on us.
    None of us can fathom the absolute nature of God the Creator, in the same way that we cannot really grasp the atomic structure of the universe or time itself. God’s instruction to mankind was always going to be a gradual and everlasting education and Adam did not know everything when he came out of the ground.
    As we know, before he rebelled, Satan had oversight of aspects Jehovah’s earthly creation but he pushed ahead of his assignment and encouraged Adam and Eve to desire to become like God or enlightened. In doing so he offered to fast track their knowledge and told them they would become like God. Do we imagine for a second that Jehovah would not have instructed Adam (and his future children) in all manner of things in due time.
    They were not going to simply stay as they were forever.
    Their Father was not going to hold back anything good from His children.
    But they pushed ahead and upset the whole fabric of body and spirit by introducing guilt to mankind.

    The issue for me is simple – accepting Christ’s ransom and applying Christ-like qualities leads to a relationship with that same Creator but never on a level approaching equality or complete understanding. If I am faithful and receive my heavenly reward, then as a spirit creature I will gain knowledge far beyond all that I now know, but I will always be a creation and subject to my Creator.
    There are many things that are true or could be true, but they don’t lead to everlasting life.
    Please please do not be seduced by these empty teachings because they really do go nowhere and will only cause you to grieve Gods spirit. I say this from personal experience as I looked into a great many things including early Jewish writings when I “left the Truth” but they always left me feeling empty. Please recognize that you are among friends here and we do not wish to rule you or dominate you but rather we want your conscience to become reconciled to God, so you see him as your Father and Christ as the Master of his household.
    Warm Christian Love
    Chris

      (Quote)

  36. InTheWilderness says:

    Brothers & Sisters,

    Correct me if I’m wrong but when Paul made this statement “All Scripture is inspired by God” he was referring to the 39 Books of the Old Testament only, at that time the New Testament canon had not been established. How do/can we know if the Christian Greek Scriptures are inspired, many statements are made by those writers to the effect that the day of the lord was very near, we are now two thousand years later and are still curious about when he will return. Surely if they were inspired writings they would not have given the false impression that Jehovah’s day was near when clearly it was not. Also the book of Jude clearly quotes from the book of Enoch, a so called Apocryphal text which even the Jews refuse is authentic scripture. How can we really say that the Christian Greek Scriptures are inspired?

    I hope no one is offended by my questions, I am a faded brother who still believes in the Lord, I am quite confident that Matthew, Mark, Luke & John reveal the promised Messiah, it is just the other texts I am not so sure about.

    Your brother.

    InTheWilderness

      (Quote)

    • andrew says:

      Hi Inthewilderness,
      It is possible that Paul only had in mind the OT scriptures when he stated that all scripture is inspired. But read what Peter wrote in 2 Pet. 3:15,16 ” And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, 16 as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures. ”

      Here Peter equates Paul’s writings with “the other Scriptures”. Thus Peter believed Paul’s writing was just as inspired as the OT.

      I have studied very in depth of why the NT writers, as did Jesus, believe and write that the Lord’s day was very near back then. I whole heartedly believe they were writing under inspiration and I believe they were correct that the Lord’s day was near back then. The problem lies with us. Many believe in a certain set of visible events that had to happen to show the Lord’s day had come. I believe what happened in 70 AD fulfilled all the prophecies and was near in time to those first century writers.

        (Quote)

  37. Disappointed says:

    Dear brothers and sisters, as sister Ruth so rightly says the word of God is all we need. Anything else is just the word of man. Didn’t Jesus tell his apostle John at the Revelation not to add anything to or take anything away from the scroll? (Rev 22:18.19)I fear this book of Urantia is doing just that. It has no authorship other than that of communication from an unknown man who was asleep at the time and had no recollections of this ‘communication’. Only the say so of a physician looking after him and reporting what he heard. How could we even begin to compare it with the word of God? This is what I believe.. Heb 4:12 we need nothing else!

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    • FutureMan says:

      You are joking are you not, how can one man come up with all of that and in his sleep, as well?

      If you would do some proper research you would find that these writings did not actually come from him, he was just the original contact to get things started.

        (Quote)

  38. FutureMan says:

    What I do know from the apostle John’s writings is that the Word Of God was revealed in God’s Creator Son, Jesus Christ(Michael)

    So if he is the Word of God, then should we not be listening to him?

    The Urantia book details Jesus life and ministry to a much greater detail than the apostles have recorded and it really is worth reading if you have the time or you can get over your prejudice of other religious books.

    And as for addition to the book of Revelation, well we are now 1900 years down the track you know in the stream of time.

    What about the new scrolls that are said to be opened in John’s visions, would they not be an addition to the bible as we know it.

    Come on now brothers and sisters, be reasonable in this matter.

      (Quote)

    • Amos says:

      Brother FutureMan,

      I say the following with love & concern for you.

      I believe that the book of Urantia could NEVER be used to replace ANY part of The Bible. I similarly accept the Bible in it’s entirety, as the Word of God.

      Regarding the “new scroll’s” mentioned in Revelation, I have no doubt that these will not be “given to man”, until after the present earth is cleansed, satan is abysed, & human society are being led back to the conditions in the “Garden of Eden.” It may even be that they are not given until after the end of the thousand years & satan is destroyed. We’ll just need to wait & see.

      Your brother, Amos

        (Quote)

  39. ruth says:

    Dear brother greybeard
    You are so special here on the site.I love what you say.
    And I appreciate you just want love and peace like me really.

    But l have to disagree with you about what Amos wrote.
    I understand just where he is coming from with bro Willie and others he sees as drawing the attention away from our Lord.
    Amos of cause loves him no doubt as we all do. But on the other hand
    Right is right and wrong is wrong. Amos is protecting us all when he speaks out! Definitely not trying to presume anything except Jesus being the only way! Stepping in to make sure the new little sheep are not lead by any Pastor Russell or followers.
    Its all to familiar! John 14:6
    sister Ruth.

      (Quote)

    • Amos says:

      ruth:
      Dear brother greybeard
      You are so special here on the site.I love what you say.
      And I appreciate you just want love and peace like me really.

      But l have to disagree with you about what Amos wrote.
      I understand just where he is coming from with bro Willie and others he sees as drawing the attention away from our Lord.
      Amos of cause loves him no doubt as we all do. But on the other hand
      Right is right and wrong is wrong. Amos is protecting us all when he speaks out! Definitely not trying to presume anything except Jesus being the only way!Stepping in to make sure the new little sheep are not lead by any Pastor Russell or followers.
      Its all to familiar! John 14:6
      sister Ruth.

      Thank you for your support Sister Ruth.

      Yes, what you said is quite correct, I am absolutely against “Another Doctrine”, & I believe that this is made up of ANY words of ANY man that is not clearly supported by “God’s Word the Holy Bible”! This includes Russell, Luther, Calvin, & ANY other man, myself included.

      If we, after exiting the WTS or ano other “man made religion”, then return to another “man made religion”, we are then accepting “another Gospel”!

      It is my desire that we don’t stumble or confuse any of the “little lambs” who are seeking the truth of our Father’s 66 love letters to His earthly children.

      As I’ve stated elswhere on this site, there may be some other early writings such as “The Book of Enoch”, that support the Holy Bible, & that these may also give us an expanded understanding, but they are NOT to be used in place of what we now take as God’s Word the Holy Bible.

      Your brother in Christ,
      Amos

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  40. ruth says:

    Dear Disappointed.
    So true my sister!
    What you wrote is exactly how I see things as well. It is wonderful to have enquiring minds. It is wonderful when the spirit of truth guides some into deeper things.
    But really! The Simple gospel is for the ordinary man and woman. family.
    Clear understandable and easy.
    Ruth

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  41. John S says:

    Dear Bro.Siam…I must say,I am perplexed by some statements you made in this blog,and have to make reply(as you invited).no.1-I do agree the Society has claimed a spiritual paradise for its members worldwide.I agree this has been untrue,especially in the last 20 years ,in my opinion.
    But the main points I have to ask you about are the ones I am addressing;that the “Gentile Times” were running at the time of Jesus’ministry on earth is attested by his own words.As to the possibility that Dan.4 and the tree dream did have a much larger fulfillment than merely Nebuchadnezzer’s wake -up call,is also fairly reasonable,as the same terms used to describe the great issue,”and to the one whom he wants it,he gives it to,and he sets up over it even the lowliest one of mankind”,a phrase repeated in Ezekiel 21:26,27;sure sounds like the Messiah picking back up the rule of the Judean Kings,and reigning over the whole earth this time.As for the 1914 year,brother Russell,(and surely he conferred with other adventist preachers on this )did not arrive at this date early in the 1880’s by viewing pyramid ratios,but by gathering data that in his understanding,that is,the historical date of 539 b.c. was the accepted date for the fall of Babylon from the Persians,then counting forward 2,520 years,very simple,IMO(see Aid book p.328)This date was set forth in the ancient writings of Ptolomy Lagus and other historians of Persia.That a lunar ruler of annual measurement was alluded to in the 7times prophecy is stated clearly in the chapter it was given;(Dan.4:29)As also testified to in the book of Revelation in describing the woman being sheltered for a time,times,and half a time away from the face of the Serpent,and describes this time as;three and a half days of years or 1,260 days.Double 3.5 times 2,and you get 2,520 days,now install Numbers 14:34 principle;a day for a year,and there it is;simple.There is absolutely no evidence to my knowledge that any Bible prophecy concerning a day for a year always means 365.25 days,and to the contrary,12 lunar months is the true prophetic formulae.Why am I making such a beef about this then?That some people will dig for the hidden meanings in Daniel and Revelation is their God-given right,and as Jehovah put these prophecies in there,I’m not going to condemn those that try.As long as they are not dogmatic about their hypotheses.
    What I do have serious issue with is the following,the Lord stated very clearly,his followers should keep on the watch for his 2nd coming,and the rewards and judgements he would bring.The discrepency that somebody recently put forth as to the 1914 date,actually moved that date only 20 years ahead,resulting in 1934 as the end of the Gentile times.Whether that is absolute truth,I can’t say,but it’s immaterial,as that date still puts the epoch of the Messiah receiving heavenly Kingdom in 1934,right in the middle of fulfilling all the predictions he gave for the end of the world.(semantics aside)I do see this as evidence that it is POSSIBLE there was a war in heaven at that time,Christ riding forth as a newly-crowned King as described in Rev. 6,and as a result,things started to “pop” down here on earth,(includin woe for the earth as the Devil has come down to you,knowing he has a short period of time).As to a “generation” being the total time elapsed till Armageddon?Certainly that was fulfilled in Jerusalem’s destruction 37 years after Jesus gave it. But that the great end-time prophecy he gave for Matt.24,25 is absolutely world-encompassing in addition,anyone can see from reading.
    I hate to be tailgating you so close on this,but one further point I feel you are gravely in error about;Jesus foretold “great earthquakes”(not an increase) for this time period we’re living in,(an increase in LAWLESSNESS and cooling off of love).We have no further to look than the 9.0 plus earthquakes and resulting tsunamis of Japan and Indonesia in recent news.Where were you when this happened?Do you really want the listeners here on this site you are moderating on to think that we are not in the darkest hours this world has ever see?You even made a statement to the effect that diseases and epidemics,and the resulting starvation from such and malnutrition we are seeing in the world HAS IMPROVED.Really,are you trying to pull the wool over our eyes here?T.B. malaria.diphtheria,smallpox,diarrhea-dehydration,cancer,heart disease and on and on are killing 100s of millions every year.And you claim to be a follower of Christ,yet,say in essence by your editorial,”where is this promised presence of his,….”(2 Pet.) Do you watch the news at all,to know the anguish the nations are in just over the economy by itself,not to mention sides are being drawn up right now for a world war that would involve all the major superpowers and their nuclear arsenals.You have really disappointted me here,and although I resigned as a Jehovah’s Witness 5 years ago,I still am a Christian.Are you?Do you want to rethink some of your comments,or maybe clarify for your readers just what your intent was by making some of these off-the-wall statements concerning the Lord’s end-time sign prophecies,especially,(WT and Russell aside.)Because it appears you are trying to say we are not in the last days at all,and Jesus 2nd coming is a long way off.Now,what are the implications of this?Would this be a statement a Christian would make or something a person in the anti-Christ category would make.Do you think we’re blind to what’s going on in the world today,or don’t care about the massive amount of human-suffering and near extinction of the human race a possibility to even the world’s rulers that are partly/mostly responsible,scrambling in meetings world-wide to head this war off?I don’t mean to bark at you,I want to get along here.But this is something I find ludicrous;the statement that we are not in the last days,and coming from a Christian at that.Please explain.

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    • SIAM says:

      Thank you John S for your comments. The beauty of this site is the opportunity to express ourselves freely. This is quite different than what many of us are accustomed to in the organization.

      To reply to your comments I offer the following observations:
      Many organizations have served Christ with good intentions. Some of these organizations have become focused on interpretative chronology in a sincere effort to identify the time of the end that Jesus spoke of in Matt. 24. I feel that it is important to read the signs of the times in context and focus on Matt. 24:36 where we are taught that no one knows the day nor the hour of the Lords return. It is wise to always be on the watch, but not to focus on the predicted times or dates.

      The chronology that Brother Russell subscribed to is wrong in my opinion for the following reasons.

      1. Jerusalem was not destroyed in 607 BCE and thus cannot be used as a valid pivotal date. All secular historians agree that Jerusalem was destroyed in 587 BCE.

      2. The “times, a time, and half a time” can be more than the 3.5 times that is usually ascribed to the scripture. “Times” could be two, three, or twenty.

      3. The calculation of the Gentile times is based on a lunar year of 360 days to come to the 2520 days but then for the supposed fulfillment is converted into solar years based on the Gregorian calendar that did not exist at the time the prophecy was given.

      4. According to the calculation the Gentile times ended in early October of 1914. Interestingly World War 1 broke out in July of 1914.

      In terms of world conditions, I agree that we live in times of trouble. However, if you look at the long term picture you will see that conditions are overall improving. For example in 1914 the average life expectancy for a male was only 52 years. Today in 2011 it is 78.5 years.

      Pestilence is being treated as never before through effective medicines and treatments. The black death in the middle ages was estimated to have killed between a third and two thirds of Europe’s population. We have not seen anything remotely close to sickness on that scale.

      Wars in the last century have been horrendously destructive, but they are still not the worst in history. For example the An Lushan rebellion in China in 755 killed an estimated 14- 15.3% of the world’s population. Compare this with WWII which killed 1.7 -3.1 % of the population.

      Earthquakes are likewise tragic but not occurring more frequently than any other time in history. http://earthquake.usgs.gov/lea.....quakes.php

      Crime statistics show that the murder rate has dropped dramatically and is at the lowest rate in almost 50 years. http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm

      I know my dear brother that it seems to you that I am saying the end is far off. That is not what I mean to imply for I hope that the end of all wickedness is brought about tomorrow. Every generation (in the dictionary sense of the word) since Christ has thought that it lives in a special time of prophetic significance. Because we all want to see an end to all badness we oftentimes will focus on the very negative things that support our conclusions and ignore other things that don’t support our belief. My recommendation is to ignore speculation on dates and creative chronology and interpretation of the bible prophecies, and focus on our relationships with Jah and his Son. The end can come at anytime, which is what Jesus was telling us in Matt. 24. It is not up to us to try to figure out when.

      I do feel that I am still a Christian as I follow Christ. It has been a challenge to reprogram my negative outlook on world conditions and focus on the facts. Just because conditions are improving doesn’t mean that the end is not near. All of us need to stay close to our heavenly father and his son and stay on the watch, because the end will come according to God’s timetable, not ours.

      Your Brother
      SIAM

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  42. John S says:

    I sincerely believe by airing out our understandings here,we begin to see the overall mental condition of all of us Christians blogging.This is good,as Jesus said,out of the heart’s abundance the mouth speaks.So we can see where everybody is mentally and know what it is we must work on to attain unity.I do believe we have some things to work on,that is to be expected.I’m sorry for engaging my beliefs with an apparent abhorrence for the opposing view.Like others here,I am anointed and believe the Lord is near and preach that in earnest.Yet it is unrealistic that we will all be in agreement until we hash some of the Lord’s words(not religious organizations),and those of the Apostles.I believe we can get a general unity of thought on the major doctrine,if we discuss them one point at a time on blogs and give scriptural proofs for our reasoning.

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  43. ruth says:

    Hi Bro Chris!
    Your love for truth manifested itself in what you wrote. I’m so happy to meet you. Truly walking in the footsteps of our Lord and saviour is so wonderful.
    I can tell you that true Christians since being brought out of false religion are better people to-day than they ever were when they were still in them.
    I always thought as a witness l was ok with our Father.
    That soon changed after Jesus started to put his spirit in me.
    He let me see my inner thoughts. A place l never wanted to go to.
    He changes so much about us and teaches us about real love.

    He falls in love with us as we with him. It’s an incredible journey now. All we have to do is listen to him when he speaks in our ears. When we read as Bro Amos puts it. ( so cute) His love letters the holy bible. We sit up and listen now!!

    The affection he has for us is unbelievable.
    Welcome Chris. So glad you are here with your knowledge and love.
    Ruth

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  44. ruth says:

    Dear brother John.
    So good to hear from you. We love you.
    Walk as our master trod and we cannot go wrong.
    Hope all is well.Hope you got paid! How hard that must be.
    Love the artistic way you think. So colourful.You paint a picture when you speak.Being are such a gentile kind person. You always ask about how we feel in your emails. You really care about our health.
    Thank you my dear dear brother. Life would never be the same without you here. many things you write are thought provoking that’s for sure.
    your sister Ruth

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  45. ruth says:

    Dear Bro DanielB
    Once again you hit the nail right on the head..
    Thanks for you loyal and steadfast encouragement.
    Proverbs 10:13. On the lips of the understanding one wisdom is found.

    sister Ruth

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  46. ruth says:

    SIAM

    Words of wisdom! Thank you so much.
    Sister Ruth

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  47. Disappointed says:

    From my own understanding of the scriptures I feel that the signs haven’t begun yet and when they do we will know about it! There will be absolutely no doubts. It will be a Great Tribulation never known before.Revelation speaks of the angels holding back four winds until the time is here. When they let go the results will be unimaginable. Who knows when it will be,searching for dates is pointless. What is important is how we serve our God and how we follow in our Master’s footsteps. (2 Pet 3:11,12).

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  48. DanielB says:

    Dear Disappointed , there are 2 schools of thought among us over the link between the great tribulation and the war at the end of the system of things .

    One line of reasoning is that the tribulation is specific for the troubles that anointed Christians endure ; and the other reasoning is that which the Witness mindset has adopted throughout their history , namely that this tribulation is the world’s in general . However the contexts in which this tribulation is foretold in the times of their writings indicate that those scriptural allusions basically apply to our brotherhood for a prescribed time . The 3 1/2 years of tribulation appear to be a literal time period , however they may be viewed as symbolic in duration . I would not though , go so far as to conclude at this time , that the 3 1/2 years is symbolic of a longer period of time . I have already learned my lesson from the “organization” concerning jumping to conclusions based on narrow human reasonings .

    The point I would like to make in this is that we do best by keeping eager anticipation for things to be clearly revealed to us , discreetly , as we make these matters subjects of prayer . Jesus said , “Keep on the watch … for you do not know …” . This very uncernainty will keep us in good stead , as we wait for God’s wisdom to be revealed during our difficult time .

    Be of good faith .

    Full submission to our “Abba” , our Papa , will always be a source of good discretion and comfort .

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  49. Willie says:

    Usually I try not to name names in my comments, but today is going to be an exception, for now I find myself in the position of defending myself. Ruth has just dealt me one of the lowest blows of my spiritual walk by saying, “I understand just where he is coming from with bro Willie and others he sees as drawing the attention away from our Lord.” As the LORD is my witness, I have never, EVER tried to draw attention away from the LORD–my Heavenly Father, nor his wonderful son–my Lord Jesus Christ. Ruth also said, “May I remind you that no one can say Jesus is Lord except by the holy spirit. NO one! Does that mean we are all right in our findings? No. But what it does mean is Many are chosen but few are called. There will be a separation even here on the struggle. Following man instead of our creator is Idolatry.” I assume that comment was also referring to me.

    Regarding idolatry–a man CAN be your teacher without your idolizing him–though you WOULD respect him. Phillip and the eunuch (Acts 8:30,31) is a good example of needing a teacher as when Phillip asked, “Understandest thou what thou readest? And he [the eunuch] said, “How can I, except some man should guide me?” Teaching is promoted in the scriptures. I Cor. 12:28,29 reads: “Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular. And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers….” Eph. 4:11,12 says: “And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ.” For the last few years I’ve had an excellent teacher (not Charles T. Russell), and I would be quite ignorant of the Scriptures without his guidance. This does not mean that I follow a man or an organization. If the Lord didn’t know that we would need apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers he wouldn’t have given them to us. To think that you don’t need them is presumptuous. We can respect and learn from these servants of the Lord without idolizing them. The problem in our day is finding that good teacher.

    Neither should we have the attitude in this quote from Ruth: “His [Jesus’] father says we are to listen to him. Not to any self made guru like Mr Russell.” This is slanderous.

    When I first visited this site I thought that I could offer encouragement and I also thought that the Holy Spirit was leading me. I had every intention of keeping my religious identity to myself for I felt that whatever I wrote on the JWStruggle would be seen through CTR-colored glasses if I was associated with him in my comments and thus it has been. Perhaps I would have succeeded in not mentioning the Pastor except for the misinformation and outright falsehoods heaped upon his memory, teachings, and reputation by many of those commenting. Finally, I did not aspire to “promoting ” him–only to “defending” him, as one would a good friend, for I felt that I “knew” him through his words which I had read. If your interpretation of “defending” = “promotion” that is your prerogative.

    And now I am a detriment to others, according to Ruth, who said that she is: “Stepping in to make sure the new little sheep are not lead by any Pastor Russell or followers.” I am not a Russellite even though I continue to be painted with that brush. I wasn’t raised as a Bible Student, but I know a great deal about him for I studied his writing for years beginning in my twenties. In my own estimation I could be referred to as a student of the Bible rather than a Bible Student, but no one on this site seems to be able to make that distinction even though I have consistently denied “worshipping” Pastor Russell and peppered my comments with Scriptures. Yes, most of us here DO interpret Scripture differently in most cases, but we are responsible before the Lord for trying the spirits for Satan WILL deceive all but the very elect (Matt. 24:24; Mark 13:22).

    I did not get on this website to decipher who is consecrated (or anointed) and who is not. I will call you Brother or Sister if I have had a personal conversation with you via email and you have expressed that you too are running for the high-calling–not the Great Multitude or Crowd which represents the Levites, an un-numbered class, for there is no calling to that group, even though it will be a spiritual “mercy” class (Jude 21-23) once the “little flock” (Luke 12:32) has gone to the marriage. I have not had that privilege with anyone but Br. John S., who gave us his email address recently. Perhaps I, myself, will fall into the mercy class, but that is preferable to second death–the only other alternative for one who has laid his promised hope of restitution to human perfection on the altar as his sacrifice to the heavenly Father for the opportunity to run “for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus” (Phil. 3:14; I Cor. 9:24).

    I was getting ready to think I had garnered a compliment from Amos when my eye caught the word “clever” until I read the rest of his sentence: “I’m not going to engage in triffles with you, as you are very clever at weaving your way around not answering our questions directly.” What question have I not answered directly, Amos? Please ask me again.

    I DO appreciate what Greybeard said, “Not all men/women express affection the same way. I believe the fact that Willie is here sharing his scriptural hope shows that he loves all of us does it not?” Thank you, Greybeard, for perceiving that my personality is not the lovey, huggy type even though I will say that I have grown quite fond of some of you and sympathetic for the trials that you have endured and the circumstances in which you find yourselves. I am more informed for having come here.

    Ruth said, “The Simple gospel is for the ordinary man and woman. family. Clear understandable and easy.” I disagree. The Gospel is not all that simple, clear, understandable, or easy in my book or else most everyone on this site would be in agreement. The Gospel isn’t for everyone as we read in Matt. 13:13-15. Jesus said, “Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables….” (Mark 4:11). Spirit-begettal is a pre-requisite for spiritual understanding and following that one must: “Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth” (II Tim. 2:15). Thereafter, the more spiritual understanding we have the more responsible we are to use our knowledge however the Lord directs. Having to live and die for what you believe is not easy, but we should REJOICE at the heavenly prospects (Matt. 5:12).

    I never meant to be contentious (Pro. 13:10). Anyone wishing to email me personally is welcome at willieofold@hotmail.com.

    “Let your light so shine before men that they may see your good works [or hear your good words, for we do not meet face to face] and glorify your Father which is in heaven” (Matt. 5:16).

    In Jesus’ name,
    Sister Willie

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  50. ruth says:

    dear bro John.
    We surely can see the signs of the times. My recommendation also is to ignore speculation on dates and creative chronology and interpretation of the bible prophecies, and focus on our relationships with the heavenly father and our Lord Yeshua.

    The end can come at anytime, which is what Yeshua was telling us in Matt. 24. It is not up to us to try to figure out when I also believe. That I also believe.

    On the other hand I do feel an urgency to get in line with following our Lords commandments and living by them.The deep things of following the spirit. Listening when he talks to our hearts. Its by this action perhaps one day he will whisper in our ears and we will we sit up and follow his direction.

    I know by prayer and such a deep love as you have that he our Lord is making personal relationships with certain people as they understand his voice.
    One thing dear John we have to have a change of heart the way we were taught dates times and seasons.
    Your Dear sister Ruth

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  51. DanielB says:

    Dear John . Get a keyboard that will make your thoughts clear .

    With you in Christ ,

    dan

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  52. ruth says:

    Brother Willie.
    Who can separate us from the love of Yesuha? SHALL TRIBULATION, DISTRESS OR PERSECUTION OR FAMINE PERIL OR THE SWORD! “NEVER LET THAT HAPPEN” OR A WOMAN FROM AUSTRALIA!

    SAY WHAT YOU LIKE ABOUT ME OR WHAT I BELIEVE TO BE TRUE.. IM STRONG ENOUGH TO ACCEPT THAT IF YOU DISAGREE AND COME DOWN ON ME AS HARD AS YOU LIKE I WILL NOT TAKE OFFENCE.
    AS IT IS IN A SPIRIT OF LOVE! A SHEER CONCERN.
    I MUST LISTEN AND DECIDE.
    INDEED I WILL THINK ABOUT WHAT YOU SAY. IN THE END IT COMES DOWN TO OUR LORD AS TO WHAT HE REALLY THINKS.

    SO I WILL REPEAT IT AGAIN. “YESHUA”
    ALONE IS THE WAY THE TRUTH AND THE LIFE. JOHN 14:6
    HE IS THE ONE WHO THE NATIONS ARE STREAMING TO.
    PEOPLE OUT OF ALL RELIGION ARE BEING SAVED FROM RELIGION, AND SHOWN NOT TO JUMP OUT OF THE FRYING PAN INTO THE FIRE. GIVEN LIBERTY
    Stand fast therefore in the liberty where with Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage” Gal. 5:1
    THIS I STAND FIRM IN BRO WILLIE.

    INTO THE SON OF GODS ARMS. INTO HIS SIMPLE LOVE. INTO HIS HEART.
    INTO AN UNCOMPLICATED GOSPEL. THIS IS WHERE HE WANTS US TO MEET WITH HIM.

    My recommendation also is to ignore speculation on dates and creative chronology and interpretation of the bible prophecies, and focus on our relationships with the heavenly father and our Lord AS A BROTHER SAID.

    KEEP THINGS SIMPLE FOR THE LOST SHEEP STREAMING HERE WHERE THE SPIRIT OF GOD IS SENDING THEM FOR REFUGE TO SEE OTHERS LIKE THEMSELVES. TO SHARE A SIMPLE LOVE AND DEVOTION. John 13:34
    John 13:13 “YOU CALL ME MASTER AND Lord” FOR SO I AM.

    ALL I HAVE TO SAY ON THE MATTER BROTHER WILLIE.
    PEACE BE WITH YOU. MAY OUR GOD BRING A LASTING PEACE IN YOUR HEART.
    SISTER RUTH

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  53. greybeard says:

    Dear Willie,

    I said what I said because I believe that deep down we all are here out of love for our brothers. Truth is, I see both sides of the issue. You, like me, do at times come across in a way with words that could use a little more salt… I have done this often myself and there have been times when I had to go back and delete my comments. JJ and Andrew have had to delete my comments in the past to be honest with you. There is much that goes on behind the scenes on this web site. We are very open with each other and open for correction. I took it as a loving thing and protection for those who read this blog. I can be very much like Peter, quick with the sword… Maybe you are like me in that regard. Maybe we both need to work on being more loving and seasoning our words with salt. I know I do…

    Mark 9:33-42

    33 They came to Capernaum. When he was in the house, he asked them, “What were you arguing about on the road?” 34 But they kept quiet because on the way they had argued about who was the greatest.

    35 Sitting down, Jesus called the Twelve and said, “Anyone who wants to be first must be the very last, and the servant of all.”

    36 He took a little child whom he placed among them. Taking the child in his arms, he said to them, 37 “Whoever welcomes one of these little children in my name welcomes me; and whoever welcomes me does not welcome me but the one who sent me.”

    38 “Teacher,” said John, “we saw someone driving out demons in your name and we told him to stop, because he was not one of us.” 39 “Do not stop him,” Jesus said. “For no one who does a miracle in my name can in the next moment say anything bad about me, 40 for whoever is not against us is for us. 41 Truly I tell you, anyone who gives you a cup of water in my name because you belong to the Messiah will certainly not lose their reward.

    42 “If anyone causes one of these little ones—those who believe in me—to stumble, it would be better for them if a large millstone were hung around their neck and they were thrown into the sea.”

    What about others who read our comments? Can we stumble them??? Love NEVER fails. 1 Corinthians 13:8

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  54. ruth says:

    Bro grey beard.
    What you wrote was so fair. So loving and so kind.
    Love you brother. Sister Ruth

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    • Disappointed says:

      Dear bro Greybeard, I agree with sis Ruth, your words are wise, loving and kind. As imperfect humans we all get upset with each other from time to time, it’s natural. Our feelings get hurt and we respond to that hurt. But we can all extend our arms in forgiveness to each other recognising that the Father and his Son love us all, each and every individual and imperfect one of us. You are a very loving shepherd bro GB and we all appreciate your care you show us all.

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  55. ruth says:

    Dear brothers.
    A wonderful friend in the Way who has not come here yet. has sent me some information for our everyday lives.
    Hope you enjoy.

    Stop Waiting for Perfect Conditions (1)

    ‘He who observes the wind will not sow.’ Ecclesiastes 11:4 NKJV

    Too many of us stand on the dock waiting. We want the ship in place, the gangplank perfectly positioned, the weather right and an engraved invitation before we’re willing to launch out. It will never happen! Dreams don’t move toward us, we have to move toward them. It’s time to quit waiting for the ideal circumstances, perfect timing and hundred percent guarantees. John Maxwell suggests that instead of saying, ‘We’ve never done it before,’ say, ‘We have the opportunity to be first.’ Instead of saying, ‘We don’t have the resources,’ say, ‘Necessity fuels invention.’ Instead of saying, ‘There’s not enough time,’ say, ‘We’ll change how we work.’ Instead of saying, ‘We’ve already tried that,’ say, ‘We learned from experience.’ Instead of saying, ‘We don’t have the expertise,’ say, ‘Let’s network with those who do.’ Instead of saying, ‘Our vendors and customers won’t go for it,’ say, ‘Let’s show them the opportunities.’ Instead of saying, ‘We don’t have enough money,’ say, ‘Maybe there’s something we can cut.’ Instead of saying, ‘We’re understaffed,’ say, ‘We’re a lean, hungry team.’ Instead of saying, ‘It’ll never get any better,’ say, ‘We’ll try one more time.’ Instead of saying, ‘Let somebody else deal with it,’ say, ‘I’m ready to learn something new.’ Instead of saying, ‘It’s not my job,’ say, ‘I’ll be glad to take the responsibility.’ Instead of saying, ‘I can’t,’ say, ‘By God’s grace I can!’

    SoulFood: Dan 8-10, Matt 12: 38-50, Ps 108, Pr 3:31-32 RUTH

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  56. Bro. Ed says:

    Sister Ruth, your words of encouragement are amazingly sound and beautiful. GB you are my brother in Christ. I grieved you and I apologize here before this congregation for my own choice of words that should have been more measured. We are all here because we are loyal to our Master and sometimes we act just like his first disciples on that dusty road, thinking we’re just out of earshot from the lord. But he’s always listening isn’t he and he quickly admonishes when we loose ourselves in ourselves.

    Peace be with all those here that hold firmly to the Gospel and who love each other with all humility and gentleness.

    Bro. Ed

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  57. ruth says:

    Bro Ed. Thank you so much. Ruth

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  58. John S says:

    Sister Ruth,we want to remember we are not the masters of our brothers or sisters faiths.If they want to talk about the prophecies in the Revelation or Daniel,or the return of the Lord,that is what the bearing witness to Jesus means,isn’t it?If you are scolding people to just read a certain small part of the Bible,now wouldn’t that actually be trying to Lord it over others?Maybe you never looked at it that way.But it is apparent that poor Willie is in need of a little comfort,too,here just as you and all of us need.Can we try to show some fellow feeling for this one who has “bucked the tide” here for so long? Let’s give him an “A” for effort and faith.

    Not trying to throw you under the bus,sister.I love you too,you know that.But I love Willie,too.Now you all can jump on me back(Ha ha,I know its coming!)

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  59. John S says:

    Thanks,brother Ed for returning to post,I thought you were a gonner.I get bent out of shape on here,too,especially about things I believe are more important than others.But we can’t force people to see it our way,and that’s what my bad manner showed I was doing.Misguided zeal? Yes ,if it stumbles a sheep,even if it’s true but our tone is cutting or unloving,we might lose a precious listener or long-time member of our precious new congregation of “Christians”.I got on SIAM’s case real hard the other day,barking at him like a little kid.He responded cooly,and casually(but I still disagree…haha).He showed more maturity in that instance,and self-control.I apologize,and admit mine is always just MY viewpoint..always subject to be examined and liable to be scrutinized in the light of truth.Shouldn’t we all show humility in matters that we discuss?…knowing we are not the recipients of ALL TRUTH,even after the we have had the liberating from the despotic overlords of a cult-like religion.Ialways enjoy your posts,upbeat,tender,yet scripturally very accurate IMO. Word-up bro.That goes for all the brothers,and you too,brother Daniel.I listen carefully to your wit and clear-cut explanations.You are clearly speaking from a lot from experience,as sister Ruth does too.She was a pioneeing missionary,and her knowledge of the truth is deep and precise.I don’t disagree with anything she understands as truth,we are on the same wavelength all the way,as I am with many others who have the spirit.I must say also,sister disappointed is quite wise,and loved hearing sister confused loving consolations to the brother who’s son died in prison;Rodney,such a tragedy.At this time,he just needs our prayers,and maybe less advice possibly,as his pain is completely all-consuming.Maybe as some months go by he can grieve out his heart enough to recover.Some never do,as it overwhelmes them,their love was so strong,and the tragedy so violent and terrible.We must hug each other more,laugh and joke and role with the jibes and constructive criticism,not act tyrannical like WT did to us.That’s not the “Christian”way here. Love you all,proud of all we have,let’s cherish our congregation,and thank JJ,Andrew,Greybeard,and Siam for the fine research and mature viewpoints we are receiving,along with all the comments. Peace

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    • greybeard says:

      Amen John S

      I like what you said here, “At this time, he just needs our prayers, and maybe less advice possibly, as his pain is completely all-consuming.”

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    • DanielB says:

      Thank you John S and Ruth for your refreshing thoughts . I always appreciate how you are . . . ” earnestly endeavoring to observe the oneness of the spirit in the uniting bond of peace . ” – Ep 4:3

      And to all here , and especially the administrators , ” The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with the spirit you show . ” – Ph 4:23

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  60. ruth says:

    Dear Bro John S
    I didn’t think it was in my nature to Lord it over others.
    But if you say I do I’m very sorry.

    When I say l love all here I really mean it. If my words have been out of line to Willie I am sorry.

    Please brother John if you would kindly refrain saying I’m a sister with vast anything. Your quite wrong. Please elevate our Lord for what he has done for us all. I need no mans praise. Nor do I deserve it.
    I’m just a person who loves my God.l am a no body. A Pioneer? Who are they. Just people. Most people with hard working attitudes mostly and a wanting to find sheep.
    Nothing else. Do I have a fight in me for truth and justice? yes. Half hearted? Never.
    When I love it is with every ounce l have.
    No one gets half of me.

    All we ever did was in the J/ws was act like parrots. Telling us what to say. marching to the w/tower tune when they would beat their drum.( Dress so beautifully.)

    When our Lord entered my heart he started to reveal who he really was. Where I had been and why he left me there.
    Galatians 4:6 please look at this scripture and take it to heart.
    “And because you are sons of God he has sent forth the spirit of his son “INTO” your hearts crying Abba father. Yes! the spirit of Yeshua in our hearts 1 John4:4
    He actually speaks to some of us. He writes on our hearts. clear as day.
    I know for sure the father wants us to look deeper in Christ’s heart. Not a passing glance like the w/tower taught us.
    When we were in the Witnesses did they ever teach us who Jesus really is. Or perhaps just how important he is on our lives?
    Did they teach us he was the theme of the whole bible?
    In the mind of the spirit everything points to Christ. That is what the Lord is trying to get us to understand right now.
    The organization only pushed Jehovah. And all the time Jehovah was exulting his son for us to understand him deeper.

    Did they teach us the temple revealed something about Christ, or the Sabbath day revealed something about him, the promised land revealed something about him. Perhaps slightly.
    Not only that, every true believer in the bible reveals something about him.
    What I’m trying to say is the natural interpretations of things and the historical view are only surface deep. Its so much more spiritual.
    More than the miracles. visions. prophecies.

    Paul say’s “Of Him,through him, and unto him are all things Romans 11:36
    Everything points to a deeper reality in Christ.
    I’m not pushing my agenda John.
    I can see so clearly he is pushing us to understand him more than we ever dreamt. It could be possible, Instead of finding books to find him as some suggest, the spirit wants us to recognize the dimension around him by listening when we pray.. How many of us stop and listen to see if he has something to tell us. Coming from the tower most perhaps would feel uncomfortable.

    John the secret place of the most high is Yeshua. He is the place the father has prepared for us. Believe it or not. I and others have comfortable places in yeshua,s heart.
    It is a one on one relationship with out Lord. I have gladly taken up his offer. When he came knocking the second time I sat up and listened. All I can encourage is we all do the same. Its different than a organization or religions.

    Before we can understand anything else. We must Understand who our Lord Yeshua really is. Other wise we will just be going over the same things as the Witnesses seven days and all the rest.
    Time and dates. seasons and years. legalism. Not only that. J/W struggle is not another church. Its a place where we can talk to each other. only. A blessing to JJ no doubt.
    We here have an amazing love for each other, Lots of goodness.

    Please do not think l do not love knowledge. Not wanting deeper understanding of the book of Daniel and others. But how many men are debating the end times and getting no where. Finding the length depth and highs of the son of God is what they in heavens want.
    Lots here agree he Yeshua is divine. If we dare to go any further it will shock most. What does he say to us. “Please take my hand” I am lowly humble in heart. He says. Give me your burdens. Please let me carry them as they are far to hard for you. Do not be anxious over anything. Anything!!!
    We have much to understand to be a real friend of the fathers@ son. That is all I have ever pushed.

    Jesus said to take one day at a time. being prepared? We hope it is soon our Lord will arrive..
    But speculation is like a sign post been turned in the wrong direction. To many go the wrong way instead of listening to common sense, not in the direction following the spirit of God.

    Although with the amount of people streaming out of false religions they do not know where to go! Where would you help them to go?
    As for me. I am showing them Jesus is the only way to go. Telling them and reminding them he is so much more to them than they realize.
    For me now? The truth is to sit down with true family in the WAY in real life would be amazing for me to experience.
    I’m tired of the internet and phones.
    I would love to sit and learn from brothers who are being given new revelations. It is truly amazing to hear what the spirit is teaching them. Of cause we are learning different things at different times and that’s great.
    Remember
    Yeshua will not let anyone he loves get away. He knows his sheep.
    I hope you drop this now John. If you think yeshua is not priory that’s ok. Do your thing. Who am I to stand in anyone’s way as to what they think.
    As for me. I’m going to walk the way my master is telling me as he knows what is best.
    Your sister Humbly Ruth.

    I can understand now why Amos tried to get us all to use the forum talking about the deeper things. He was right..
    Sister Ruth

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  61. use 2 b a dub says:

    hi siam,
    i’m fairly new to the site. interesting that your life and mine closely resemble each other. i was a an elder for many years also and resigned in 2010 almost immediately after the ‘overlapping’ explanation was revealed. when i read that in the WT, i asked my wife what her take was on this ‘new light’. she was offended that i would ask and asked if i now visiting apostate sites. at that time i wasn’t but that ridiculous explanation put me ‘over the edge’.
    i was by 2010 already moving away from the organization and the GB’s rule.
    i found myself at meetings reading the full context of scriptures that we were asked to look up or that were quoted in the publications being studied. wow was that an eye opener to see how out of context some scriptures were being applied.
    Anyway, your 12 bullet points that caused your doubts to see the cracks are the same ones that i had and also moved me to fade.
    because the doubts were lingering many years before 2010, i spent my last few years as an elder teaching the bible and not necessarily the WT doctrine. My public talks deviated often from the ‘outline’.
    i remember in one talk that i told the brothers that we should seek unity and not uniformity. several approached me after the talk and thanked me for that expression.
    in the last couple of CO visits i made a point at our elders meeting with the CO, our so called ‘appointment recommendation’ meeting that i was not in complete agreement with the fact that the first requirement for being appointed as and elder or MS was ‘hours’. i mentioned in a nice way that i could not find that in the scriptural requirements outlined in 1 timothy. it bothered me that it was usually more about a brothers statistics and numbers and not his fine spiritual qualifications.
    anyway i will try to chime in occasionally as i continue to fade.
    your bro,
    use 2 b a dub

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