Charles Taze Russell and Joseph F. Rutherford

These two men would be disfellowshipped for apostasy if they refused to accept modern Witness beliefs

I have received a very kind invitation from JJ to contribute to this wonderful website, and it occurred to me that I would be remiss if I were to neglect making  some kind of introduction. I then realised that introductions are considerably difficult, if not impossible, when done so anonymously. Like many who frequent this website, and like JJ himself, I am a free-thinking “inactive” publisher. I live in fear of being unmasked as somebody who disagrees with a significant percentage of the teachings of the organization I grew up in and once loved.

Having grown up in the faith, a significant portion of my family are also Witnesses, and I know that if my true feelings were unveiled, I would be deprived of any meaningful interaction with them for the rest of my life. That is a truly awful thought, and almost inconceivable given that I am a grown man living in a 21st Century western society – and yet such is the grip of the Society’s teachings. For this reason, as much as I would love to give my name, and talk in detail about my family and upbringing etc, I must temper my enthusiasm to do so. I know full well that anything that would identify me could potentially be used against me by the kind of people who think that any who disagree with the Governing Body or its teachings are “mentally diseased”.

Here is what I can say:

I am in my thirties. I have a wonderful and extremely patient wife, who I will continually refer to as “Mrs Cedars”. Her doubts about the Society aren’t quite as advanced as mine yet, but we agree on a great many issues. I have no children, although I am increasingly open to the idea of having them some day soon. I come from England. As previously mentioned, I was raised as a Witness. You might call me a “third generation” since my grandparents on one side were Witnesses. I have briefly served as an elder, and I have regular pioneered for almost a decade in total.

My personal struggle began in my late teens when I started to look into bible prophecy. I had a friend, who was quite a bit older than me, and I can still recall sharing some of my doubts with him during the time we shared together on the ministry. At the time, rather than seeing flawed prophetic interpretation as being evidence of a clear lack of ‘spirit direction’ on the part of the Governing Body, I took it upon myself (in my juvenile over-exuberance) to immediately seek to find alternative explanations of prophecy, some of which were just as implausible as those that had caused my doubts in the first place.

My ministry partner didn’t know quite how to react to all of this. He was fairly new in ‘the Truth’, so he often gave me the benefit of the doubt. He took me very seriously to begin with, and at one point he asked me to contemplate whether I was a member of the ‘anointed’, which I could never bring myself to do. As our conversations continued, I noticed him become gradually more defensive of the Society’s literature. Finally, we stopped discussing my doubts altogether, and I’m sure it was no coincidence that shortly thereafter I was approached by our COBE (or Presiding Overseer) regarding my wild theories. Our Presiding Overseer, a very kind man, listened to my doubts patiently, and showed me a great deal of sympathy. Once I had finished he asked me this: “Tell me though [Cedars], do you still believe in 1914?” “Of course I do!” I answered. “Well that’s all that matters!” was his reply, and the discussion ended.

After everything that has transpired since then, and my fairly recent revelations that there is a whole lot more wrong with the Society than simply its prophetic interpretations, I still think back to that conversation with some bewilderment. In many ways it seemed to typify the approach that has been taken by the Society over many decades, which is to start with the presupposition that Christ began his kingly rule in 1914, and that he subsequently chose the Watchtower Society as his faithful slave class in 1918. Every prophecy is then moulded, or “shoe-horned” (as I like to call it) around that doctrinal starting point, however flawed the original doctrinal understanding may prove to be with the passing of time.

In order to cement their authority and maintain a ‘sense of urgency’, the Society needs to have something that bridges the near-2000 year gap between the passing of the Apostles and current events – however unfeasible or doctrinaly shakey their reasoning may be. They are not the first to have done this, and they most certainly will not be the last. What disturbs me is the way in which the need to extend the longevity of the Society and the legacy of Russell and Rutherford is placed first and foremost above everything else, including the sacred need to keep families together (1 Tim 5:8).

The ironic thing is, if Russell and Rutherford were somehow miraculously resurrected today and refused to lay aside their original beliefs – they would be disfellowshipped as “mentally diseased” apostates quicker than you could say ‘Great Pyramids of Giza’! That is how much the Society’s doctrines have changed since these men were alive. I find this thought utterly disturbing, especially considering that these figures, both of whom had questionable characters, are elevated to near godlike status whenever the Society’s history is discussed in the publications or digital media. Nobody stops and thinks that they were not Jehovah’s Witnesses, at least not by today’s standards.

So where does that leave me? Like my hypothetical ‘resurrectees’ from the previous paragraph, I do not have the luxury of being able to consult my own conscience, arrive at an alternative opinion, make this opinion known to others openly, and still call myself one of Jehovah’s Witnesses. The chief requirement for salvation has long been, not simply belief in the ransom sacrifice of Jesus Christ, but unwavering loyalty to the Governing Body – however much their teachings and doctrines may fluctuate. For this reason, I must hide under the pseudonym of ‘Cedars’, and do my very best not to have my identity discovered. What I cannot bring myself to do, no matter how hard I try, is simply lie down and allow this to happen to me without at least trying to do something about it. That is why I will do all I can to help others in my situation, including those who feel lost and don’t know what to think about the Society anymore. My intention in doing this is not to draw off followers after myself. I neither seek nor desire followers of any kind. My desire is simply to help those who are trapped in this struggle, and try to accelerate the coming of the day when this completely unwarranted ideological oppression no longer affects me or my family. That will truly be a day when I can declare that I have found my spiritual paradise, a day when it is okay to believe differently, and there will be no painful repercussions for doing so.

Until that day comes, I’m afraid you’re stuck with me here on! Hopefully we can all help one another out, and struggle on together.

Rating 4.72 out of 5

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53 Comments on An Anonymous Introduction

  1. greybeard says:

    Welcome to the forum Cedars! I look forward to your posts and join you in this fight to protect the sheep from those who wish to slaughter them!


  2. SIAM says:

    Cedars, Welcome. You are in good company.



  3. Cedars says:

    Thanks guys, its an honour and pleasure to be here!


  4. JJ says:

    Cedars, great introduction and “what if” about Russell and Rutherford. The vast majority of Witnesses do not realize how radically the organization has moved from the doctrines and truths of the Bible Students.

    I have been told that the writing department at Bethel has a DVD that contains every single article and publication going back to 1879. The rank and file Witnesses will never be given access to a disc like that because of the “dangerous” information (to the current WT regime) that it contains.


  5. AwareBeing says:

    Hello, hello! It’s nice to hear from you on this form too cedars. We here on this site would rather be stuck with you, instead of dishonest, or unaware people. Most of us are caught in the middle as you are, but are still God focused. That is what’s nice about this blog, it’s not argumentative, and leaves a spiritual thought. As for me and my wife, we believe that the WTB&TS will fall with Babylon and the lost sheep will be gathered outside of Watchtower walls. I hope I didn’t burst anyone’s bubble! What ever our personal opinion is however; we’ll need each others companionship as the end closes in on the wicked. I wish you the best for you and your family.


  6. andrew says:

    a warm welcome from me as well


  7. Wakeupwitness says:

    Looking forward to posts from you. I as well am in my 30s, in-active, and still have family that are still active witnesses. I on the other hand have shared my thoughts with them regarding 1914, generation changes, etc.


  8. Amos says:

    A warm welcom from me also Cedars. I come from the “land downunder” & have a very similar background with the WTS to yourself, being a third generation (ex) JW.



  9. Willie says:

    WELCOME, Cedars. This post is for you and JJ. I just wanted JJ to know that I have most of the literature (in book form) that is on that DVD he mentioned, and they are still available as far as I know. And you are correct about the date; the Reprints begin with July 1879–I just checked. I haven’t read every single word in them, but I have read several thousand pages and I KNOW what Charles T. Russell taught.
    Bro. Russell didn’t think the reign of Jesus began in 1914, that is when he thought that the Church would be taken. Here is a direct quote of CTR from the First Volume of “Studies in the Scriptures,” page 255: “The stone cut out of the mountain without hands, which smites and scatters the Gentile powers, represents the true church, the Kingdom of God. During the Gospel age this ‘stone’ kingdom is being formed, ‘cut out,’ carved and shaped for its future position and greatness–not by human hands, but by the power or spirit of the truth, the invisible power of Jehovah. When complete, when entirely cut out, it will smite and destroy the kingdoms of this world.” The ruling Kingdom of Christ cannot begin until the Church is on the other side of the vail–plain and simple. This world is so full of evil that it is ludicrous–even sacrilegious to say that Christ is reigning!
    No doubt Charles T. Russell would NOT be in good standing with the GB for he never had anything to do with it. He died 15 years before Rutherford named the remaining members of the IBS Jehovah’s Witnesses in 1931. I have a deceased friend who was at that meeting–he was thirteen at the time.
    Sooo, I will have to take exception with Cedars and say that in all of my study of Bro. Russell’s teachings, etc. I have not found a single moral fault with the man. True, he made some mistakes in judgment, he had a difficult marriage to Moriah, and he was wrong on the Church being taken in 1914, but he did predict WWI and the start of Gentile Times.
    Charles Russell was a dedicated servant of God (he never took a day’s vacation once he began his ministry) and never asked for a dime while using his personal fortune to finance his world-wide ministry for forty years, though he thankfully accepted voluntary contributions.
    Judge Rutherford changed so much of his teaching that it is not even recognizable as having anything to do with what Charles T. Russell taught. I will not defend the Judge.
    Cedars said, “I find this thought utterly disturbing, especially considering that these figures, both of whom had questionable characters, are elevated to near godlike status whenever the Society’s history is discussed in the publications or digital media. Nobody stops and thinks that they were not Jehovah’s Witnesses, at least not by today’s standards.”
    Now that’s a very profound statement, Cedars, but I don’t know what you have heard that was QUESTIONABLE about Charles T. Russell’s character. If you would let me know then perhaps I could defend him for I have studied his writings and his life, and I have great admiration for him. If CRT is “the wise and faithful servant” of Matt. 24:45-47–as many I know believe–then I think that we will find that his character was beyond reproach in the Lord’s eyes, though I’m not saying that he was perfect, but that he was approved by God in that he was chosen to be the wise and faithful servant.
    An interesting book to read, written by David Horowitz (Yes, he was a Jew) is: “Pastor Charles Taze Russell–An Early American Christian Zionist.”


    • Cedars says:

      Hello Willie, thanks for your comments, and it’s nice to have somebody on the forum who is so well informed about the Society’s ancient past. In saying that Charles Taze Russell’s character was “questionable” I did not make the claim lightly. I was referring to four incidents that I’ve become aware of in the short time that I have been ‘awakened’. I haven’t made these matters a subject for closer research, but I believe there is substance behind each of them.

      1) The Solon Society, which is a business enterprise that Russell allegedly ran out of Watch Tower headquarters. Apparently Russell approached three girls to form a company called “Logan, Land & Whitehouse” and this firm was used by the Solon Society to purchase merchandise (household goods, furniture, clothing, etc.) at wholesale prices. All three of these women testified that Russell himself approached them and asked if they would allow their names to be used to create a company. When the firm later came under investigation, Russell denied that he had anything to do with it. Here was his testimony to the court:

      Q: Well, where was it organized?

      A: I really do not remember anything about it.

      Q: What is theSolon Society; what does it do?

      A: I don’t know anything about it.

      Q: You have heard of it?

      A: I have heard of the Solon Society, yes, sir; but I have nothing to do with it.

      Q: Where is its office?

      A I do not know; I think it is in Cleveland.

      I haven’t looked into the affair in sufficient detail because I have only just become aware of it and am awaiting an opportunity to invest more time in investigating it further.

      2) Russell’s arrogance towards those who wrote into the Watch Tower with questions regarding bible prophecy. In the October 1st, 1904 Watch Tower, a reader wrote in with the following valid question regarding the chronology surrounding the 606 / 1914 supposition:

      “Dear Sir,–Since you have changed your views respecting Gentile Times let me suggest the possibility of still another error. You count the seventy years Babylonian captivity of the Jews as beginning with the overthrow of Zedekiah, Judah’s last king, but I notice that “Bishop Usher’s Chronology,” given in the margins of our Common Version Bibles and based on “Ptolemy’s Canon,” begins that seventy-year period nineteen years earlier–namely, in the first year of Nebuchadnezzar, when he took captive Daniel and other prominent Jews and laid the Jews’ country under tribute. Now if this, the common reckoning, be correct, it would make the Times of the Gentiles to begin nineteen years later than you estimate, namely, in B.C. 587, instead of B.C. 606;–and this in turn would make those times end nineteen years later than you have reckoned,–in October, A.D. 1933, instead of October, 1914. What do you say to this? Are you humble enough to acknowledge that I have struck some new light, and that you and all DAWN readers have been “all wrong,” walking in darkness?”

      Russell’s reaction?

      “We reply that there are too many ifs in the proposition, and that they are all abundantly contradicted by facts and Scripture, and are therefore not worthy the slightest consideration.”

      Whether the proposition was right or wrong, it was made in all sincerity and evidently had a great deal of time and research invested in it. Surely the reader merited a little more respect and consideration that he was dealt here by Russell?

      3) The scandal surrounding Russell’s wife and the initial accusations of his inappropriate encounters with other women. There is a court transcript describing these ‘indignities’ at the following html address. I would appreciate your thoughts…

      4) The Miracle Wheat scandal. I’m sure you will be aware of this. Through the pages of the magazines, Russell encouraged followers to buy so-called ‘miracle wheat’ at $1 per pound. Wild claims were made that this wheat could grow at five times the rate of normal wheat. A newspaper exposed the scam, and Russell took them to court, only to lose.

      Here is a link to the story:;id=9312

      I will confess to not doing the amount of research into items 1 and 3 as I would have liked, but I find that the evidence already accrued under all 4 items is sufficiently disturbing as to the call Brother Russell’s character into question, irrespective of his undoubted achievements, which is why I described him as being of “questionable character”.


    • Dear Brother Willie,
      concerning CTR and his “questionable character” please refer to the book “The Four Presidents of the WatchTower Society” by Ecmond C. Gruss editor and former Jehovah’s Witness.

      Whether this book is completely factual each of us will have to make such a determination. But the court records statements and the treatment of his wife after her securing her divorce from him (if true) clearly show a man of extremely questionable character. A man so unrighteous that he withheld support of his wife for years at a time and then removed the means of support that she had procured for herself. A man who clearly lied under oath in front of a court of law. These are not honorable traits, at least in my opinion.


  10. rus virgil says:

    Willie , a comment addressed to you is waiting for aprobation on other topic
    until then , I see you have an BS background and I am glad to meet such persons
    the time is here for those who come out from Babylon to worship together our Father as He requires “with spirit and with truth”,
    believing the teaching of Christ (2John 9) and singing the Song of Moses (Deut 31:19-21)
    see here some my thoughts regarding our BS brothers

    Jeremiah 31
    1. At that time, saith Jehovah, will I be the God of all the families of Israel, and they shall be my people.

    Be blessed,
    rus virgil


  11. rus virgil says:

    Hi Cedars !
    I am glad to see you !
    you said: “if Russell and Rutherford were somehow miraculously resurrected today and refused to lay aside their original beliefs – they would be disfellowshipped as “mentally diseased” apostates quicker than you could say ‘Great Pyramids of Giza’!”

    In fact there is a worse thing that this one (that you said)
    If Jesus would come today at WT headquarters , He would be quicklyer disfellowshipped than the first two presidents !

    and, in FACT HE IS already
    how so ?
    because He said: “Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.”

    there are many “least of these my brethren” today who were already disfellowshipped for following Jesus…

    so, what deserve a such “organization” who have disfellowshipped exactly its “Head” ?


    • Amos says:

      Well said Russ, I quite agree with you.

      When we think about this view, in reality the WTS have in fact denied Christ, & put themselves in His place, thus really making themselves a part of the anti-Christ.



    • Cedars says:

      rus virgil – quite correct. I shudder to think what would happen if Jesus were to turn up at world headquarters. I would imagine quite a number of desks would be over-turned!


      • rus virgil says:

        I agree !


      • rus virgil says:

        Yes , and more than overturned desks , the (today) appointed Judge – Jesus Christ , will (and is, in fact) pronounce again these words and sentence:
        37. O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

        38. Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

        DESOLATE – this is the result of God’s judgment over this house of rebels (WTS) .

        and this desolation has to a visible sign of God’s justice for all inhabitants of this earth
        and all who love God and His justice will rejoice !
        Psalm 58
        10. The righteous shall rejoice when he seeth the vengeance: he shall wash his feet in the blood of the wicked.

        11. So that a man shall say, Verily there is a reward for the righteous: verily he is a God that judgeth in the earth.

        This is the way The Most High One is making a Name on earth .


        • Amos says:

          Well said Russ.

          The judgement will be very severe indeed on those who have “shut up the Kingdom of God”, convincing their followers of so many lies regarding the “Kingdom of God”!


  12. Willie says:

    GREAT POST–that #11 by Rus Virgil


  13. FutureMan says:

    Hello Cedars, I can appreciate the spiritual journey that you are now undertaking as I myself have gone on a journey to no man’s land and beyond, figuratively speaking.

    I have looked at a variety of Bible translations and interlinears to establish the truth of things as from a scriptural point of view.

    I have investigated other texts such as the book of Adam, Enoch, Apochra of Noah, book of Jasher, the Summerian texts, the Kolbrin Bible, the Urantia papers the supposed 5th revelation.

    I have scoured the Internet on all information relating to the so-called Illuminati and looked at the information as from the one who suddenly appeared on the AboveTopSecret site as to the “hidden hand” who are saying that they are behind the Illuminati.

    I have investigated the “Law of One” as transmitted through channelers to those of a paranormal research group.

    The beings who claim to do this channeling for this type of information called themselves RA a composite mind entity not of this earth.

    The Urantia texts are also channeled but not directly through anyone, but strange enough through a locked safe.

    I have also investigated the Edgar Cayce experience with channelers and the information does appear to be the same as the Ra entities.

    They claim to be the ones who built the pyramids around the world to help align the spirituality of mankind.

    It is interesting that brother Russell also had an intense interest in the pyramids especially the large one in Egypt.

    He believed that this one was the stone witness testifying to God (Jehovah).

    It is noteworthy that the Illuminati also have an intense interest in Pyramids (as shown on a US dollar note) as do the Masons.

    The Watchtower Society in it’s early days also included masonic symbols on their literature as well as certain words used that suggests a leaning towards masonic ideology.

    By the 1950s however they had largely moved away from this except for the “New World” concept of which in my opinion originally stems from masonic ideology.

    The start of this ideology was the new translation of the Holy Bible that was named “New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures”.

    However they did not completely remove all the masonic symbols of which one was to do with the Watchtower.

    The Watchtower (representing the Watchtower Society) now stands as an iconic Idol within the organization for all to look up to it for their salvation instead of looking to God’s savior, Jesus Christ.

    No they do not consciously worship it, but unconsciously they give allegiance to it every time they pick up the Watchtower magazine that has the imposing tower on the left side of the front cover of the study magazine.

    How do they do this, simply by giving their undying obedience and doing just so, as the Watchtower dictates.

    If therefor it says that all dissidents of the organization are “mentally diseased” and that they should be avoided at all costs, then this is what most of it’s members will do, without even questioning their own conscience on the matter.

    This is how the organization have programmed these ones, to obey without question, to trust the so-called “faithful slave” who claims that it’s representation is the now the ruling (governing body).

    Yes they themselves have set themselves as kings over all of it’s seven million members or so.

    Anyway I have delved into much of the scientific theories as to quantum theory and relativity, the Cosmic Universe at large and also our origins here on the earth.

    I’m now even considering that there may be some basis to the evolutionary theory except that I believe that God has created things by using a controlled evolutionary process to produce much of the life in our universe.

    I now believe that there is other intelligent life out there in our universe along with the spirit world or dimension of space.

    Their are now many planetary systems being found and some with the potential for life.

    And scientists have theorized that their could be up to 11 dimensions of space or eleven planes of existence.

    Other information I looked at suggests fewer than that but still their could be a few dimensions.

    The Bible does allude to the fact that their could be 7 heavens.

    The apostle Paul speaks of a man that was caught away to the third heaven, whatever that means, but it is food for thought anyway.

    At the moment their is an astounding lot of UFO sightings, and i do not profess to know what this means, but I have come across some interesting files relating to the UFO phenomenon
    and other related paranormal events such as remote viewing experiences etc.
    These ones claim that they have viewed other entities elsewhere within our solar system.

    There is a lot of information leaked out now about so-called artificial structures on the moon and NASA are now even trying to enforce a no fly zone on the moon.
    I do not know what their agenda is in doing this, but it is rather suspicious including all the air-brushing they have being doing to certain photographs of the moon and of the surface of Mars.

    One of the most well known photographs now circulating the Internet is a very large space craft lying there in a crevice of a large crater of the moon’s surface.

    It certainly does look artificial and not just an unusual shaped rock, for instance.

    In all this there is one thing that I’m certain of, and that is that the real truth is been hidden from us by hidden forces that do not want the majority of the earth’s population to know of or about.

    And another thing that I’m certain of and that is that just when you think that you have the truth in hand, it flys away just like that elusive butterfly that keeps you chasing after it, never to catch it and grab hold of it.

    Hopefully when the Kingdom is finally realized on the earth, this will all change and we will know the truth, at least in part, the part that matters to our worship of our God and Heavenly Father.


    • Cedars says:

      FutureMan: And another thing that I’m certain of and that is that just when you think that you have the truth in hand, it flys away just like that elusive butterfly that keeps you chasing after it, never to catch it and grab hold of it.

      I agree whole-heartedly. There’s a great many things in our universe that defy explanation. The more we discover, the more we realise, not only how little we know, but how incomprehensible are many of the things we do know. I personally believe it is impossible to discover the complete truth in a human lifetime. The best we can hope for is to discover what ISN’T true, and pass this on – so as to make the ongoing search easier for future generations.


  14. JWB says:

    Cedars, thank you so much for sharing your thoughts and experiences here. It certainly lifted my spirits as I’ve recently been finding ‘the struggle’ quite difficult, and wondering whether or not to throw in the towel in the sense of just letting things be and try to get on with my life as best I can.

    On occasion I’ve wondered if spending so much time trying to get certain information out is worth it, maybe I should drop the subject altogether, because it is a constant reminder of the fact that some of my very close family members are trapped within the organization. It looks like one of my children is set to become another unpaid fulltime ‘publisher’ for the Watch Tower Society. But then I get this internal drive which reminds me of Jeremiah’s words:

    “O my intestines, my intestines! I am in severe pains in the walls of my heart. My heart is boisterous within me. I CANNOT KEEP SILENT, for the sound of the horn is what my soul has heard, the alarm signal of war.” [Jeremiah 4:19; NWT]

    To everyone here struggling and desperate for peace of mind and heart, you are not alone. Our brother Cedars is testimony of this, and I would like to thank from the bottom of my heart for taking the time to encourage us with his testimony.

    Your brother,



  15. JWB says:

    FutureMan said: “This is how the organization have programmed these ones, to obey without question, to trust the so-called ‘faithful slave’ who claims that it’s representation is the now the ruling (governing body).”

    I agree. Let us not forget the GB is expected to be to JWs what the Pope is expected to be for Roman Catholics, in a sense The Vicar of Christ. As Moses was told he was ‘God to Pharaoh’ so the GB see themselves as ‘God’ to JWs. They claim to speak ‘in the name of Jehovah’ which, by their own definition of the phrase ‘in the name of’, means to speak by the AUTHORITY of Jehovah. They have for all practical purposes become ‘God’. They also praise themselves by saying, “This organization has never disappointed us and always gives us an abundance of pure waters of truth from God’s Word”. Some may beg to differ!

    But how many of us truly dedicated our lives to an organization? How many of us agreed to be unquestioningly under “the spiritual authority of the Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses situated at 25 Columbia Heights Brooklyn New York, United States” (from section 9.1 of the Articles of Association [2000] of the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of Britain)?

    I thought these Bible verses relevant to this subject. If we want to know what the foremost type of apostacy is, I think this pretty much sums it up.

    “Let no one seduce you in any manner, because it will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness gets revealed, the son of destruction. He is set in opposition and LIFTS HIMSELF UP OVER EVERYONE WHO IS CALLED “GOD” OR AN OBJECT OF REVERENCE, SO THAT HE SITS DOWN IN THE TEMPLE OF THE GOD, PUBLICLY SHOWING HIMSELF TO BE A GOD. Do you not remember that, while I was yet with you, I used to tell you these things?” [2 Thessalonians 2:3-5; NWT]


  16. Willie says:

    DEFENDING CTR: The Internet says nothing good or factual (relatively speaking) about Charles T. Russell or Jehovah’s Witnesses, at least on the things that I have researched. Try looking up Dwight Eizenhower’s parents Bible Student association and you will see what I mean. Apparently the father dropped out after 1914 or stuck with the original thinking–I could never ferret that out–and the mother became a loyal JW.
    As for your points: #1 I’m glad you used the word allegedly, for it would make no sense to do such a thing for a man who was very wealthy at the age of 23 in the men’s clothing business with his father. A person should not be condemned for not commenting on something he knows nothing about–which he apparently didn’t.
    Point #2. I agree with Bro. Russell’s reply. If you can’t make sense of it (too many if’s) then how can you answer it? He felt responsible to the Lord for the use of his consecrated time and he cut to the chase in answering questions. There are 853 pages in the book “What Pastor Russell Said” (called the Question Book for that’s what it is–over a thousand questions and his answers) and I have read most of them. It is more edifying to present the Truth, as one understands it, than to refute every falsehood that comes along. Upon reading it again I think that the person’s true intent was reflected his closing remarks: “What do you say to this? Are you humble enough to acknowledge that I have struck some new light, and that you and all DAWN readers have been ‘all wrong,’ walking in darkness?” This attitude smacks of spiritual Pride with a capital “P”!
    Point #3. Well, I wish that you had included CTR’s court testimony so we could hear the other side of the story–for there’s alway at least two sides. Moriah was clearly “out to get him” as most people are when they go to court. Bro. Russell’s closest Brethren finally persuaded him to present his side of the story in the Watchtower because of the negative things that were being reported in the newspapers, which they thought should be refuted for the good of the IBS and he finally did.
    I think it is unfortunate that he and his wife took a celibacy vow before they got married (she later changed her mind, but to Bro. Russell a vow to the Lord could not be broken) and so the marriage could have been annuled on the grounds that it was never consumated; so to think that he had improper motivations along this line with other women is quite absurd to one who has sworn to celibacy. Mariah was a beautiful, intelligent, religiously fluent woman who got caught up in the throes of the Woman Suffrage Movement with her sister, who was the second wife of Pastor Russell’s father. (CTR’s mother died when he was quite young.) Bro. Russell did everything he could to disuade her, to no avail for the ensuing uproar was damaging to his work for the Lord and the IBS. Ultimately it caused the ruin of their marriage for she wanted to run the IBS and rule her husband and CTR wouldn’t stand for it, knowing that God had given him the commission to anounce the invisible presence of Christ. Her family even thinks that she wrote some of the volumes in “The Divine Plan of the Ages” for she claimed that she did. If she would lie about that….
    Point #4. When I said that he made “some mistakes in judgment,” I was referring to his promotion of the Miracle Wheat. He really believed what he had been told about it and passed the information along in the Watchtower letter which was published bimonthly. He often included helpful items to the readers with their interest in mind, but he really caught flack for the Miracle Wheat–as your testimony proves.
    In the July 1, 1917 Watchtower there was an article suggesting that the Brethren eat more cornmeal to save money. I wonder if that was ever brought up to slander the Judge?
    CTR was such a powerful influence for the Lord that he was the object of attack from Satan, the fallen angels, and evil-thinking men and women for the duration of his life. For instance this is in the Reprints and I quote: “Brother Nicholson, of the Australian Branch, writes us of an astounding circumstance. One of the Australian Brethren has a wife who is neither for nor against the Truth, and who professes no sympathy for Spiritism. Quite recently the Brother, returning to his home, had a harrowing tale related by his wife. She declared that Brother Russell had appeared to her. (Possibly she had seen his photograph). She declared that he made immproper proposals, to which she yielded. At such a distance [CTR was in the US] it is easy enough to prove an alibi–to prove the the Editor was not there. But suppose materialization in all of its particulars had transpired in Brooklyn, or in the Bethel home, or in any of the various cities which the Editor visits in the preaching of the gospel, or in a Pullman sleeping car, in which he frequently travels–it is easily seen that an alibi might be very difficult to prove in such cases. And what would be true in this respect of the Editor might be true in some respects of many of the Pilgrim brethren; yea, true of all of the Lord’s people everywhere.”
    Let us beware. (II Thess. 2:9-12; Rev. 13:11-13.)


  17. Cedars says:

    Thanks for your comprehensive rebuttal, Willie. It would seem that you’re quite a fan of CTR! I admire your enthusiasm to defend his reputation. I maintain that the four issues I have described constitute sufficient evidence to at least call into question the character of Russell, so please forgive me if I stand by my claim for now. Russell never dissuaded people from declaring him to be the Faithful and Wise Servant (one of these people was in fact his wife), and it was perhaps his failure to deflect such praise that bestowed upon him more responsibility to tread carefully in his business dealings and marital affairs. Evidently he did not do so, at least to the degree where he could be held blameless against all reproach in these matters, and that is regrettable – at least for him and for his legacy.


    • Amos says:

      I’m with you on this one Cedars.

      I’ve had a comprehensive look at CTR’s writings (but never read them entirely), & lost interest when found that he said we didn’t need to read the bible, if we read 12 pages of his “Studies in the Scriptures” daily. This is absolutely contrary to the name “Bible Student” & is too much for me to swallow. This of course, is not to say that he didn’t get some of his studies right, because he did. Another thing is that he didn’t do all the study himself, but used much of what other adventist groups were believing at the time, until he got up & running.

      As an example, look at the “invisible presence”, when our Lord failed to appear when Russell said He would, he accepted the invisible presence to cover his failed prediction. As we know, this was the new Barbour that came up with.

      You also mentioned the Pyramid of Giza, I could not in any way think of this as being “God’s Stone Witness.” There is absolutely no evidence that I have found that links this structure with “The Divine Plan”, however many have convinced themselves that it is so. I guess we can believe anything by convincing ourselves that it is true.

      While I think that the BS’s are lovely people who really are genuine & serious about their beliefs, I find them to generally be eliteist, & they place Russell on a pedestal. If it comes to the point of accepting what either the bible says, or what Russell says, they opt for Russell over the bible every time. I find this quite disturbing to say the least.

      Just some of my observations.



      • Jayme says:

        good points bro Amos!

        Elitists, yes, we all must fight this sin. Just as the apostles had to be corrected in their competition for who was the greatest….”where as all you are brothers” Matt.23:1-12
        and ” this is not the way among you” Matt.20: 20-28.


  18. Jayme says:

    Brother Cedars, welcome to JWstruggle! I look forward to your contributions. I was raised in the “truth” and it has been an integral part of my life. I have been in the “struggle ” for 3 yrs now and am thankful for places such as this to have the freedom to speak openly and to recieve encouragement. I hope we can sharpen one another and continue to build one another up in our most holy faith.

    Your brother, Jayme


    • Cedars says:

      Hi Jayme

      Thanks for your kind words. It is refreshing to have a place to come and be open about our sincere beliefs. Nobody here fits the ‘apostate mould’ in that our beliefs do not spring from selfish pride or a desire to draw off disciples after ourselves. We simply beg to differ on a great number of issues, which should be our right as freed followers of Christ.

      Warm regards, Cedars


  19. Willie says:

    FUTUREMAN–on your #13 I can report that I have investigated many of the things that you mentioned and, other than being able to give a solomn reminder that Satan is behind all things evil, “it profiteth me nothing.” One good thing about being old is what you have had the time to experience,learn–and evaluate. Two members of my family have seen UFOs (about 1980) and it is my humble opinion that UFO’s are the result of activity by the fallen angels. Remember: Satan is “the prince of the power of the air”! UFOs are supernatural. So is channeling. How do you think that the Harry Potter series came about? And we know that the dead are dead, so that leaves the fallen angels under the power of Satan.
    We’re in the Judgment Day now and the angels who materialize will be sealing their doom, which means that those who decline to materialize will have a chance to repent and be forgiven. God is just with all his creatures: the incorrigible reap Second Death and the repentant have a chance to prove they can be obedient to the rules of their Creator.
    “And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day” (Jude 6). “Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?” (I Cor. 6:3).
    These end times will continue to get worse with lying signs and wonders before the Messianic Kingdom begins; the fallen angels– our enemy–will come in like a flood. (See Isa. 59:14-19.)
    Curiosity is a impelling force, but if it gets you involved with the occult then you are on dangerous ground. Stick with Phil. 4:8–“Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true,… honest,… just,… pure,… lovely,… of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, THINK ON THESE THINGS.”


  20. Willie says:

    AMOS, I have several comments on your REPLY to #17–when I have the time–but this one is concerning the last paragraph where you said, “While I think that the BS’s are lovely people who really are genuine & serious about their beliefs, I find them to generally be eliteist, & they place Russell on a pedestal. If it comes to the point of accepting what either the bible says, or what Russell says, they opt for Russell over the bible every time. I find this quite disturbing to say the least.”
    Well, SO DO I, Amos, for it IS true of the vast majority of the BS–especially the elders! They DO place Bro. Russell on a pedestal and as such have made their own little Babylon. CTR predicted that there would be a division in the Church before Jesus came for the feet members, but I don’t think that he had any idea that a “worshipping” of him would be a part of the issue.
    God knew that this was going to happen for we are actually warned about this very thing in Rev. 19:10 where John falls at the feet of an unidenfied person to worship him. The burden of finding out who this person is is made easier by the previous verses (6-8) which describe the Great Multitude. It is a well-know fact that Bro. Russell was the person who made well known the existance of a mercy class called the Great Multitude. These persons fail of making their calling and election sure (to be of the Bride of Christ), but are still virgins (the foolish ones) and, after washing their robes white in the blood of the Lamb [Christ Jesus] during the great time of trouble, they become servants of God before the throne in heaven (Rev. 7:13-15).
    I would explain it this way: vs. 9 reads: “And he [Jesus} said unto me [John], Write, Blessed are they [the great multitude of vs. 6] which are called unto the marriage supper [NOT the wedding], of the Lamb [Jesus]. [Notice that there is a break here; a new sentence begins because there is a change of speakers.] And he [CRT] saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.” Continuing with vs. 10–“And I [John] fell at his [CTR] feet [the last person who was speaking] to worship him [putting CTR up on a pedestal]. And he [CTR] said unto me [John], See thou do it not [CTR DID try to discourage adulation–contrary to what has been purported]: I [CTR] am thy fellowservant [no personal elevation here], and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus [you can see that Jesus ISN’T the one speaking here]; worship God; for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.”


  21. FutureMan says:

    To Willie’s reply at nos (19) post.

    I respect what you say here and yes I’m very concerned about being misled away from the true teachings of God.

    This is why I believe that we must very much base our belief system on what Christ taught his followers and the surrounding peoples.

    I have come to the conclusion that while God’s Word is indeed contained within the Bible books, it is not itself inspired of God.

    This is why we must carefully scrutinize the scriptures just as much as we should scrutinize any other writings.

    In fact the apostle John said just that in his writings.

    1 John 4
    1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are from God; for many false prophets have gone forth into the world.
    2 By this know the Spirit of God: every spirit which confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God.
    3 And every spirit which does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not from God; and this is the antichrist which you heard is coming, and now is already in the world.

    I do believe that this does include the texts of the Bible books or scrolls.

    Also the translation of the Bible from time to time is also subject to change as the translation of the “New World Translation” shows.

    I do not believe that the Bible is the only source for truth.

    There is some truth in other writings as well.

    But it is up to us to carefully scrutinize these writings to identify the truth.

    What I do believe however is that the “Holy Spirit” as the Spirit of Truth” will help us navigate the pages of the Bible cannon and help us individually discern the truth from it as we would any other writings that exist toady.

    As for UFO’s, I’m include to agree with you here as I myself theorize that the vast sightings of UFO’s are Inter-dimensional crafts that are occupied by fallen angels.

    However I would not exclude at this stage the possibility that a very small percentage of UFO’s are biological entities that may either be working in league with these fallen angels or indeed in behalf of our Lord Jesus Christ (Michael) who is the ruler of this earth by legal right.

    I do not believe that God would create this vast universe simply for it to be inhabited by just us humans here on the earth.

    What is being observed out their now by powerful telescopes such as the Kepler is a vast network of galaxies that are in a form of globule clusters all seemingly interconnected similar to the neuron networks in our brain.

    It is theorized that their could be in excess of over 200 billion galaxies in this vast universe.

    In each galaxies is a multitude of solar systems in the order of over a hundred million in each one as an estimate.

    No I do not believe that God created all this simply for us humans to inhabit.

    Our Heavenly Father after-all is a God of variety as the animal creation on this planet, our planet earth, shows.

    I try to apply logic to all of this and this is how I see it from my perspective, from my logic.

    However my logic could be faulty in this, that is a possibility as I do not see the whole picture.

    So yes I’m very much aware that there is a great deception out their and I do not exclude the Bible in this.

    If the Devil has control of this system, and this world as the “prince of darkness” then would you not think that he could not control the information contained in the Bible?

    After all Jehovah’s Witnesses claim that he had God’s name removed from the scriptures for at least 1300 years or so. until Tyndale coined the name Jehovah in the King James translation.

    What else has he changed, or added, or omitted?

    That is why I believe that we need to pray constantly for God’s Spirit to help us individually in establishing what is the real truth in all this.


  22. Willie says:

    Comment on #21–Yes, FutureMan, I agree with you that in the economy of God, eventually all of these galaxies that we can now see, those we can’t see, and infinite numbers of others as yet uncreated, will be inhabited for eternity has no end. Since we are supposed to be created in the image of God, I, for one, would like to think that the human form WOULD be the shape of choice, for there is quite enough variety in it to suit me. Time will tell.
    On what basis can we say that the earth is the beginning of human creation? Wouldn’t it be MOST reasonable that God would sacrifice “his only begotten Son” on the FIRST planet of human beings? and that our experience with sin will be an example to the whole universe in due time. Earth was and is the only spot in the Universe where God’s will is NOT done–for a limited time only. After this permission of evil and the destruction of Satan and the incorrigable angels and humans is over, a violation of God’s laws will result in instant death. God’s will WILL be done on earth–and everywhere else in the universe–as it is done in Heaven where God lives.
    How do you interpret Psa. 22:25-31?
    Though Satan is the “prince of the power of the air” during the permission of evil on the Earth, God Almighty is still in control–whether or not we call him Jehovah–and can overrule anything that would be contrary to the perfect execution of his Divine Plan of the Ages. If we didn’t believe that this was so, how could we have enough confidence in God to worship him?
    We HAVE to have a CONSTANT–a FOUNDATION–that we can trust to show us the way to righteousness and that is God’s WORD, the Bible. “Thy WORD have I hid in my heart that I might not sin against God” (Psa. 119:11). “Thy WORD is a lamp unto my feet and a light unto my path” (Psa. 119:105). “Thy WORD is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever” (Psa. 119:160).
    In spite of the many attempts to slant it to different religious idealogies: the Trinity, eternal torment, the immortality of the soul, the Catholic Version, the NWT, etc., the person searching for the truth can detect the errors if they are truly willing to be led by the Holy Spirit. II Tim. 2:15 says, “Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, RIGHTLY dividing the WORD of TRUTH.”
    Hebrew was quite challeging to translate considering that there was no punctuation and only consonants were used. Choosing the wrong vowels would change the word and an inaccurate choice of prepositions could produce the opposite meaning–“in” or “out”, “up” or “down”, “by” or “for” as in John 1:10 or “from” or “for” as in Luke 12:36.
    Interpolations did occurr and probably most of these have been pointed out by this late date. I’ve marked all I could find in my Bible. The NWT properly omits Mark 16:9-20 and John 8:1-11.
    When we think of all the prophecies that the Bible has made–and that not one has failed–only the Holy Spirit of God could provide such accuracy! God’s overruling is obvious no matter what we were taught by the “religion” we grew up in. The more we study the Bible the better we understand God’s thinking and we begin to be able to decipher if a passage or phrase doesn’t ring true. Considering how big the Bible is and how many wrote it and how many times it was copied by hand, it is amazing that it is as accurate as it is. Surely God was/is in control and surely his warning given by Jesus to John in Rev. 22:18,19 had a sobering influence in that respect!
    It is my humble opinion that Jesus is speaking from Rev. 22:6 through Rev. 22:19, with the exception of the phrases, “And he said/saith unto me” and vs. 8 where John falls down at the feet of Jesus and he says, “See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets [Matt 24 and Revelation], and of them which keep the sayings of this book [the ONLY ONE who COULD keep the sayings of THIS BOOK perfectly]: worship GOD.” [EMPHASIS mine.]
    “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works” (II Tim. 3:16,17). “But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness” (II Tim. 2:16).


  23. FutureMan says:

    To Willie, in reply to post 22, I respect your opinion here as it would seem that you have complete faith in what the scriptures say, particularly based on one scripture that proclaims that all scripture is inspired of God.

    I however believe that the true picture of what is going on and the true picture of our universe is much more than what is mentioned in the scriptures of the Bible.

    It is interesting to note that the Jewish scribes and pharisees really only considered the first 5 books of the old testament as inspired and which is known by the Jews of today as the Torah.

    So at that time when Jesus and the apostles were on the earth this was what was considered by them to be inspired of God.

    Remember, they killed most of God’s prophets?

    So most likely they still had a poor opinion of the word of the prophets, except for those that would be from their own educated ranks (the scribes and Pharisees etc.

    That is one of the reasons that they had a poor opinion of Jesus, because he was not sanctioned by them and not what they were expecting at all.
    In fact they criticized the fact that he came from the area of Nazareth and that he was the son of a carpenter to boot.

    Another thing that they were expecting was that Jesus would come to deliver them from the yoke of the Romans as an earthly King, this was the messiah they were looking for, and they certainly were not expecting a messiah like Jesus proved to be.

    Today many Christians have similar expectations without really realizing what the Kingdom is or represents.

    The prophets really were sent to progress and enlarge the peoples view of the true God.

    They also warned people of coming events as relayed to them by their angelic hosts, mostly through visions or trances.

    Apparently the angel Gabriel was one of the ones that was most instrumental in this area of transmissions to the earthly prophets.

    Some of the things that the prophets uttered did not come true.

    This was not because the information was wrong, but things had changed after the prophecy was uttered and effected a change in the hearts of the people that received the prophecy.

    One notable event in this regards was Jonah and his prophetic statements to the Assyrian city of Nineveh.

    And he was sadly disappointed when God’s word did not come true at that time, as he (Jonah) prophesied.

    This was because the people had repented.

    I see visions and such as probabilities of the future, of what the future will be if no change happens among the people that the prophecy is presented to.

    Sometimes the way prophecy has been uttered and unfolds in the future is changed because of the very nature of people being aware and heeding that prophecy to effect a change.

    So really today a lot of these prophecys are calling the people of our world to repentance or to get our own affairs in order, but the question is, are they heeding the words of the prophets?


  24. Willie says:

    I agree with the following quote from your comment: “I however believe that the true picture of what is going on and the true picture of our universe is much more than what is mentioned in the scriptures of the Bible.”
    Of course it is. How big did you want the Bible to be? However, what we need to make our calling and election sure IS contained in the Bible (I Pet. 1:10), and the wise virgins/the Bride of Christ/the 144,000, ARE the ones who are going to experience the Universe in all its glory for all eternity with their Head (Col. 1:18; 2:18-22) and Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ. Eternity is plenty of time to learn “the true picture of our universe” for we read in I Cor. 2:9, “But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.”
    As for prophecies NOT coming to pass, wouldn’t you have to agree that a “REPENT OR ….” prophecy where the subjects repent and avoid the prescribed doom is just as fulfilled as a “REPENT OR ….” prophecy where the subjects don’t repent and reap the prophesied judgment? Ideally all persons or nations in such situations SHOULD repent and avoid the judgment. It just as surely WOULD have come to pass had they NOT repented.
    An overwhelmingly important prophesy for our day is to “come out of Babylon” which represents all false religious systems. “And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come our of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues” (Rev. 18:4). Another “either/or” prophesy with positive results for some and negative results for others.


    • Amos says:

      I must agree with your thoughts on this topic Willie, including that of Rev. 18:4.

      My personal belief is that this also includes ANY & ALL religious systems. I don’t see any need for ANY organizations to teach, ETC “Christs Brothers,” as has been discussed in previous months.

      Each one has a direct relationship with Christ, with no need for any go-between here on earth.

      What I do believe is that we all need each other in the sense of the thought at Heb. 10:19-25.


  25. FutureMan says:

    Yes I do agree that the Babylonish system is doomed and will fall as God’s judgment on her is irreversible (set in stone if you like), but individually it is not, if they get out of her in time before it is destroyed or removed from the world scene.

    That is why there is a cry for those that want to identify themselves with God’s people to “get out of her”.

    But be not you be surprised if events unfold differently to what you personally expect.

    And to Amos, I believe that here you speak the truth in what you have said in your last post.


  26. Willie says:

    I FORGOT to comment on the following statement by FutureMan in #25: “It is interesting to note that the Jewish scribes and pharisees really only considered the first 5 books of the old testament as inspired and which is known by the Jews of today as the Torah.
    “So at that time when Jesus and the apostles were on the earth this was what was considered by them to be inspired of God.”

    I’m not sure that is an accurate statement, FutureMan. Jesus and the apostles certainly used more than the books of Moses. In fact the books most often quoted, mainly in the Gospels and Acts of the Apostles, was Psalms and Isaiah. Remember when Jesus was in Nazareth on the sabbath day and went into the synagogue to read. He was providentially given the Book of Isaiah, called Esaias in Luke 4:17, and he read the following from Isaiah 61:1,2a–“The Spirit of the LORD is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, To preach the acceptable year of the Lord. And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him. And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears” (Luke 4:18-21).
    Jesus didn’t quote the rest of Isa. 61:2–“…and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn” because that part is not yet fulfilled to this day.
    Remember also that John the Baptist looked so much like what the Hebrews thought that Elijah would look like that they came in droves to hear him preach because of Mal. 4:5–“Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD.”
    There are many other examples, but it seems evident to me that the entire Old Testament was in use in Jesus’ day.


  27. FutureMan says:

    Did most of the Jews listened to the God’s inspired word as through the prophets?

    No they did not and neither did most of them understand them.

    And neither did the pharisees and the scribes, otherwise they word have recognized Jesus as the true messiah.

    They did not, for they were expecting someone else.

    I did not say that the prophets writings did not contain God’s word, I simply stated as from my research that while they did have the writings of the prophets at that time that they did not consider them inspired, only the writings of Moses as to the Mosaic Law and so on.

    Of course they considered the writings of the prophets, but I do not believe that they really accepted them as God’s word.

    For instance if they were students of the book of Malachi and they really believed this as God’s word, they would have understood that John the baptist was the Elijah at that time that was coming before the messiah.
    But apparently this went straight over their heads.

    The same goes for today, the Elijah of today will also come before the “Son of Man” comes in great power and glory.

    This is of course from my own perspective.

    As it would appear that most of us here sees things from different perspectives.


  28. Willie says:

    Sorry for the delay in responding to #17 of Cedars and the reply by Amos, for I just ran across this quote last week in The Watch Tower of February 15, 1909.
    The GOLDEN TEXT was John 5:39–“Search the Scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.” C. T. Russell’s comment on this was: “As our Golden Text points out, the Lord is revealed in the holy Scriptures, and those who would know him should seek their information from that quarter. Under Divine providence, apostles, prophets and teachers are necessary, indispensible. BUT NO WORDS OF MAN ARE TO BE TAKEN INSTEAD OF THE WORD OF GOD. [Emphasis mine.] On the contrary, their presentations are to find acceptance only in proportion as they are found to be in harmony with the Scriptures, and to discern this harmony the holy Spirit is necessary. The Scriptures must be searched, but only by coming into a condition of heart harmony and teachableness, and then by a full consecration receiving the holy Spirit, can we hope to understand the divine message and to obtain therewith the eternal life which it promises to those guided and taught of the Lord.”


  29. John S. says:

    Dear brother Cedars,I have read your report and understand how you would feel about openly declaring yourself at odds(to put it lightly)with the ‘Society’s’teachings/ruling policy.I was one who was at odds,for 30+ years,before I resigned formally.I was not so much dismayed at the shunning,as I knew it was going to happen.But I just couldn’t sit thru the meetings,sing the songs of praise for the “Big Brotherhood”,or go out distributing the Watchtower with a heartfelt earnst,and HONESTY.Of course this is the way I felt because I had changed my belief about the Holy Spirit rebirth was for all Christians,and that there is but one class of Christians,not a wise virgin class,and a lazy virgin class,which some are to my thinking very misread.(see Rev.3:14-16)


  30. John S. says:

    Thanks again,for letting us talk on this site.I enjoyed Willie’s remarks,especially do I appreciate your candor in confessing the adamant stand of some Bible Student elders who have’assumed ‘ a Goerning Body attitude in promoting C.T.Russell as the last word on the Word.This is exactly what I found in my study of their beliefs;a propensity to say things about Russell’s teachings that HE never would claim,yet they tout him as the modern day ‘channel of truth’…sound familiar,Witnesses?They were kind enough to lend me all the Studies in the Scriptures,and other great books.,which I am continuing to research.But I greatly slowed up,as Russell was out of control with his essays,and his writing style is like mine,…ramble on,and on, and on…I can not excuse reading 2500 pages of Russell.My mind and time,of which I may have very little left,belongs to Christ and his work,not Russell’s.He also gives little to no recognition to other Pastors in his writings,as far as where he learned this or that doctrine.This really bothers me as he really seemed to love the attention and glory of men he was receiving in his escalating role as the hot Prophet of the day.But really,Willie,I know you are enamored,inspired,in love with him,and even Witnesses,sorry, claim he was their original founder,which the facts show he was,as the Bible Students and Russell are where Witnesses came from,and although their teachings differ somewhat from B.S.,we do worship Jehovah,his son,no hell,trinity,etc.144,000,and on.How can it be denied?Now bear with me a momnent,as I’d like to give a complement,your zeal is refreshing,you never give up,that’s great!But did you notice there are others matching your moves,and maybe the audience is starting to see a blending and bending of the minds here.Ive heard it said that a true test of maturity is where two people with differing viewpoints can intelligently and calmly discuss their viewpoints,and change sides so to speak,looking at things from other perspectives,without getting emotionally heated up.I see this process working among several on this site.Your honest confessions,and those of Greybeard’s and others are encouraging. I think we ran Cedars off,though.Please come back,and write some more. Let’s give this brother some more respect and follow some more of his conversation,so he will post,it seems we took off with the wagon here,something I’m good at,sorry


    • Cedars says:

      Hello John S. Thanks for your kind and well-considered remarks. I haven’t gone anywhere as such – it’s just that I’ve been rather preoccupied with family business over the last few weeks. I hope to get back to my writing shortly, and I do appreciate those like you and Willie who take the time to read my posts and express your thoughts freely and candidly. I’ll be back soon! Cedars


  31. Ruth says:

    Amos I agree whole kindheartedly with your thoughts here!

    My personal belief is that this also includes ANY & ALL religious systems. I don’t see any need for ANY organizations to teach, ETC “Christs Brothers,” as has been discussed in previous months.

    Each one has a direct relationship with Christ, with no need for any go-between here on earth.

    What I do believe is that we all need each other in the sense of the thought at Heb. 10:19-25.
    Your sister Ruth


    • Amos says:

      Sister Ruth,
      Thank’s for your reply to my post. This view has been so important to my spiritual growth. If we wish to grow spiritually, we must do the hard work ourselves & not rely on outside forces to do that for us.

      An ideal illustration for this is seen in nature. Many bird chicks are fed by their parents regurgitating what the parent has already eaten & partly digested. However, when the chick reaches a certain period of growth, they then begin to do their own food gathering, they NEVER stay in the “infant” stage.

      I think that this illustration is precisely how it should be for a “true christian”, when a babe, they generally need to be fed by others until they reach the point of “spiritual adolescence” (so to speak), they can then do their own “hunting & gathering”.

      How could they ever arrive at maturity, if they never did any of their own studies?

      How can any-one advance to maturity & “make the truth their own”, if all they did was read what a religious body wrote, or listened to other peoples words, without reading, meditating, & asking the Holy Spirit to guide them into the understanding of what they are reading from our “Fathers Instruction Manual” for HIS children???

      I think that the bottom line is, “God’s WORD Is Truth”, & “The Truth Will Set You Free!” Free from ALL human agencies!

      I have amassed a very large study & reference library, ALL the “essentials” of what some man or men have written about the understanding of God’s WORD. What I’m now finding is that God’s WORD & some basic “language study material” is all I really need, the other works however are useful at times, but not to be relied upon. God’s word will interpret itself, with the direction of the Holy Spirit, guiding us from one verse to another, thus giving the real meaning of what has been “written for our instruction”.

      When we rely on our Father, instead of any man, HE will supply our every need, & the thing that I have also found is that this need is “at the proper time for us”, not at a time that others consider right, not lock stepped in formation. Each one is at a different point in our “spiritual growth/learning”, so why would each one be fed the same material, at the same time?

      Another view to explore is concerning our 1st century brothers.

      Did these ones have a regular “lock step” teaching program from ANY central governing body? NO! What they had was the OT writings, or more apropriately called the “Old Covenant writings” & the gospels & epistles, as & when they were written.

      Of course, they also had the spoken word of the apostles, these ones being taught by Our Lord Himself. Even Paul was taught directly by the risen Lord for almost two years, before embarking on his ministry to the fledgling christians of his day.

      Your brother in Christ,


  32. Ruth says:

    I so agree with what you have written. You do speak truth.
    It is letting go of the old and renewing our minds with our father. Never ever letting any one person or organization program our minds again except the word from God himself.
    His own words. Reaching our own hearts. Jesus is now working with individuals one on one. At the same time trying to get us connected to-gether in pure undefiled love. He is pulling people from all religion’s into his personal place to teach us.

    What I do now know is the New testament is really all about the Lord Jesus Christ for sure. He is now central to the very core of prophecy. Always was! Also he loves us with a passion we can never understand.
    Can we say the same for him? As I said before and what I have now found out is we should be ministering to him like the ones of old. “Anna” others.
    It is not about us anymore! Life is about the father and his son. He will give us out needs and desires we just have to be patient. Anyway!
    We will not lean on what a group or organization wants us to do. Telling us if we do what they say we are good Christians.
    Then when they say to us if we do shape up to men’s standards! Then we are to ship out or we will be kicked out.

    On the other hand what does Our Lord Jesus say say. “Come to me all you that are loaded down” I WILL GIVE you REST. Notice the singular “YOU”
    HE is the way the truth and the life. HE is the one who knocks at our doors.( do not need to quote scriptures we all know them)

    “Are we then going to let JESUS in? Or are we just going to keep going on thinking hes such a good guy! Oh yes the son of the most high God. Lets just keep him in his place after all he is not “JEHOVAH” Really? Sorry! But our Lord JESUS is truly divine.
    That was one of the first things he showed me about himself after I resigned from the w/tower. I felt so humiliated with in my self. I was so dreadfully sorry I never really new him.
    Not only do I know him. I absolutely love and adore the Lord Jesus Christ with such a wonderful friendship I cannot even explain to you or anyone.

    Unfortunately some still feel the organization is still a place to rest in while they just wait. leaning on a illusion instead of reality. Wait on what? Wait on who?
    When one gets the true meaning and understanding of where they are! Please do not stagnate on one foot! a rush of urgency should move them to action!
    Revelation 18.
    GET OUT OF HER MY PEOPLE! Yes when we realize where we are we must take action and be brave.. If we love mother or father more than me!!!!!! We all know the rest.

    Show our real character before the living God! Afraid of man? NEVER. Must be like Young David. It is God who will win the battle for us! not we ourselves.

    Brother Amos I’m not saying this out of any unkindness but sincerely out of love for my brothers and sisters.
    My life is bend on being their servant in anyway I can.
    But on the other hand I will stand for truth and righteousness.


    • Amos says:

      Sister Ruth,

      Thank’s for your reply & expanded explanations. I do agree with all that you’ve said.

      Regarding the divinity of our Lord Jesus, This is something that He has shown me also. This is definitely NOT at all to do with the trinity, (but I can understand how satan has twisted the scriptures for those who accept this false doctrine). In His pre-human existence, Our Lord was Divine, but (possibly) gave up this Divinity for the period when He was a man on earth. On His resurrection, He received this Divinity back from the Father again. (BTW, don’t confuse Divinity with Immortality)

      You will remember the verse that says, “All things have been given me in heaven & on earth.” He said this following His resurrection.

      As you have shown from Rev.18:4, we do need to get right out & away from any & all religious systems, & like yourself, I believe that this includes the WTS, the Bible Students & any other association that relies on any manmade doctrinal materials.

      I will now echo what you have said, “I’m not saying this out of any unkindness but sincerely out of love for my brothers and sisters.
      My life is bent on being their servant in anyway I can.
      But on the other hand I will stand for truth and righteousness.”

      Amen, Sister Ruth.

      Your brother in our only Saviour & Lord,



  33. Ruth says:

    Brother Amos.
    I have been reading your posts and can see you are a brother who really has a lot of fortitude and love. Also one who stands for for truth and righteousness.

    We are blessed to see Jesus is Truly Divine. Col 2;9 The fullness of deity dwells in him. John 8:5 I am.
    Brother Amos there certainly is a lot more than we ever realized about our wonderful Lord. No trinity for me either.

    Thank you for your kind words and support. May our God continue to help you grow as you walk the path of righteousness endevouring to show us what you have learnt from him.

    Like you Amos, to be a servant of my fellowman was what I have been born for. I knew as a child who I was. Lived in a home with family who never loved the father. But this tiny girl would get on her knees and pray always. The devil even knew who I was and made my life growing up very difficult.
    But! To no avail.
    keep up your excellent work contributing to this site.
    Sister Ruth in our Lord.


  34. Ruth says:

    Amos sorry about that.
    The scripture is John 8:58
    Lots cannot take that scripture and twist it. they want to keep Jesus in the Michael the Archangel category.
    sister Ruth.


  35. Ruth says:

    brother John s
    Hullo! Hope you are well!
    the only way you can contact me is through my email.
    I put it up again on the site.
    I have a lot on my plate but please fell free to drop by and say hi.
    Your story is very sad. But on the other hand it is suffering that draws us closer to the father and his word.
    We are all at a different stages of our learning what our father wants. so please be patient with us.
    Love your spirit.
    Sister Ruth.


  36. John S. says:

    Sister Ruth,and brother Amos, all the fine moderators,what a privelege to see the escaped ones receiving the anointing of the spirit of Jah,AND his son,for you all echo my beliefs also about the need to follow the One Shepherd’s voice.Because you bros.and sisters have been doing that,I had a strong sense a few days ago.It was to the effect that the Lord had anointed this site with his Spirit.I sense a strength here in these words,which are coming from the hearts of all,that the spirit is moving rapidly and intensely at this site.Let’s all say a prayer for Their continued blessing,and may all of these contributors,tho they have different religious backgrounds,continue to respect and communicate together.I’m sorry I have taken shots at the right-wing Bible Students,some I have found do believe strongly most all Russell’s views.Whereas others have distanced themselves because of the abundance of Russell’s interpretations.Since we as ex or now Witness beliefs have learned from Russell’s efforts,it is undeniable we owe him respect for all his sincere hard work and lifetime of service to the Lord,even though we at this time may have outgrown his teachings as the Lord has seen fit to make the light brighter over the past 100 years.Certainly this audience speaking on this site and would be an ‘Advanced Class’ of Bible Students if we existed in 1915.And like yourselves,Amos and Ruth,all the most important teaching,and my rebirth I received from the Lord Jesus himself,Father Jah alongside,while reading the word privately.Bless you all,I’m enjoying skipping all over this site…great stuff,ya’ll!Sister Ruth,was your site the one that had comments from ‘seedacoffee’?Could you give it again,I read over 2 years worth of debate on how the ‘Bride of Christ was not the anointed brothers,but New Jerusalem(I’m not going to get into that one as it seems to be not that clear a debate or very important to seperate the two)There are more basic issues needing claification .That’s why I like this site,but I do rove about.Thanks.


  37. Willie says:

    Dear M-007, When I saw sometime ago that someone on the Forum had recommended the book, “The Four Presidents of the Watchtower Society” by Ecmond C. Gruss editor and former Jehovah’s Witness–and read their comments regarding Br. Russell–it made me sick to my stomach. As we know, there are two sides to every story and my opinion is that if anyone lied in court, it was NOT Br. Russell. The information that I have read is quite different. It is my understanding that though he and Maria separated (for she had a home in the town that I lived in) they did not divorce and he DID support her until the day of his death.

    I happen to be a Sister who believes that Charles T. Russell was the “wise and faithful servant” of Matt. 24:45-47 and that Judge Rutherford was “that evil servant” of Matt. 24:48-51. Even so, I do NOT worship Br. Russell and I do NOT take his word over the Word of the LORD. I believe that we are warned against that very thing in Rev. 19:9,10.

    As I indicated in my post above, I consider the absorption of thousands of pages of a person’s writings to be a better indicator of that person’s character than books or opinions which seem to be based on the inaccuracies of Internet mis-information, bias, and outright lies.

    And no, I haven’t read the book. If that is what you and the others here got out of it–I wouldn’t waste my consecrated time. Since, in my opinion, the reporting on Br. Russell was so false, I would be inclined to doubt the veracity of what was written about the other three–even if it was basically accurate.

    Sister Willie


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