Does this young JW really know what he is getting himself into?

Water baptism is a very important step in a Christian’s life. It is a solemn oath to dedicate yourself to do the will of God and his appointed king, Jesus. For this reason it is taken quite seriously among many people of Christian faith, including Jehovah’s Witnesses. Notice the following quotes from the New World Translation Bible on the importance of this step:

Matt. 28:19, 20: “Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you.”

Acts 2:41: “Those who embraced his word heartily were baptized.”

Acts 8:12: “When they believed Philip, who was declaring the good news of the kingdom of God and of the name of Jesus Christ, they proceeded to be baptized, both men and women.”

Acts 8:36-38: “Now as they were going over the road, they came to a certain body of water, and the [Ethiopian] eunuch said: ‘Look! A body of water; what prevents me from getting baptized?’ With that he commanded the chariot to halt, and . . . [Philip] baptized him.”

Here is a portion of what the 1986 Watchtower magazine said regarding how to follow Jesus’ steps closely:

Baptism is a sacred symbol, an outward sign of dedication. When we agree to work for a person or a firm, we first ascertain the requirements and conditions and often follow through by signing a contract. But without a signature, the contract is not binding. So it is with baptism—it makes our dedication to God valid. In a sense, like Jesus we say: ‘Look! I am come to do your will, O God.’ (Hebrews 10:7)
(Watchtower 1986 9/1 p. 5)

Also germane to this discussion was what Brother Greybeard wrote some time ago on the wording of the baptismal questions and how they were changed in 1985 to add in a verbal contract vowing loyalty to the Watchtower organization. That being said, the vast majority of us reading this were baptized as Jehovah’s Witnesses at some point in our life, and we have awakened to TTATT and this is why we are here on the JWStruggle website. As we follow our arc (See my YouTube video) and progress along our Christian walk in serving Christ, many of us wonder about baptism.

• Was my baptism as a JW valid?
• Did I really know what I was getting myself into?
• Is the fact that I was a minor child when being baptized into the religion a factor?
• Did I really know or have the capacity to understand that I was entering into a verbal contract with the WT Organization by agreeing to the second of the two questions asked by the brother giving the baptismal talk on that day?

We may be an awake Witness that still attends meetings and is in stealth-mode. We may be a fader, or even a former Witness that has been disfellowshipped. Regardless of which of these categories we fall into, our conscience may prod us to ask the question of whether or not our baptism was really valid before our Heavenly Father and our Lord Jesus or not. Was it scripturally sound? Did we understand what it was to be baptized in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit? Should we get rebaptized? These are valid questions to ask, and each of us can prayerfully ponder these as we see the need to. Here is an excerpt from one bible-based web article addressing the important question of whether our baptism was scriptural or not:

What about those who were baptized unbiblically? …Common examples of this are those who were baptized as infants, or those who were baptized later in life, but did not truly know Jesus as Savior when they were baptized. In these instances, yes, such a person definitely needs to be rebaptized. Again, the Bible states that baptism is post-salvation. The symbolism of baptism is lost if a person has not truly experienced salvation by faith in Jesus Christ.

Another excellent discussion of Christian baptism can be found here:

The bottom line comes down to our personal relationship with God and what our Christian conscience tells us we need to do. In light of this I would like all of you to hear Brother Londo’s story, which is attached below. He decided that he needed to get baptized again and presents his personal reasoning quite eloquently:

Brother Londo’s email and announcement of his baptism:

On January 17, 1987 I was asked two questions:

(1) On the basis of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, have you repented of your sins and dedicated yourself to Jehovah to do his will?

(2) Do you understand that your dedication and baptism identify you as one of Jehovah’s Witnesses in association with God’s spirit-directed organization?

I was baptized essentially in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Organization (aka “Mother”–according to the convention this year). I do not feel this was a proper baptism, not only because of the questions, but because I was 15 and didn’t know what I was doing. I didn’t have all the Information presented to me about many things. I had no reason to question what was presented and never properly heard any other viewpoint. Therefore, when it came to 1914 or 607 BC, or where the Great Crowd renders sacred service, or who the Other Sheep are, who should partake and how often, and so forth, I accepted what I had been taught from the only channel that I was exposed to.

Really, why was I baptized? I saw my friend, who was about my age, baptized, and I figured if he did it, I should to. That’s a really poor motivation.

Baptism is a symbol of being buried to one’s former way of life and being raised to life in Christ, and through it, one is baptized in Christ’s death and resurrection. Jesus instructed his disciples to be baptized “in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit”. Baptism is like marriage, it is a union between a person and the Divine. It is all about one’s personal relationship with their Father and His Son, and with the Holy Spirit. In fact, it is marriage: by it, a person becomes part of the Body of Christ. One doesn’t get baptized in the name of a religion or organization. The only identity Christians should have is simply: Christian.

Baptism in Christ begins a life of repentance or reform. As Martin Luther said in his first of 95 Theses: “When our Lord and Master, Jesus Christ, said ‘repent,’ He called for the entire life of believers to be one of repentance.”

In view of this, I will be getting baptized promptly at 11 AM on Reformation Sunday, October 28. This day observes the start of the Reformation, the day Martin Luther nailed his 95 Theses to the Church door, lighting a fire that could never be put out.

This will be at Bethany Christian Church. I chose to start attending here for Christian fellowship because I like the philosophy:In essentials, Unity; in non-essentials, Liberty; and in all things, Charity (or love).

To quote Wikipedia about the Christian Church (Disciples of Christ), “The one essential is the acceptance of Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, and obedience to him in baptism. There is no requirement to give assent to any other statement of belief or creed. Nor is there any ‘official’ interpretation of the Bible. Hierarchical doctrine was traditionally rejected by Disciples as human-made and divisive, and subsequently, freedom of belief and scriptural interpretation allows many Disciples to question or even deny beliefs common in doctrinal churches . . .

Beyond the essential commitment to follow Jesus there is a tremendous freedom of belief and interpretation. As the basic teachings of Jesus are studied and applied to life, there is the freedom to interpret Jesus’ teaching in different ways. As would be expected from such an approach, there is a wide diversity among Disciples in what individuals and congregations believe. It is not uncommon to find individuals who seemingly hold diametrically opposed beliefs within the same congregation affirming one another’s journeys of faith as sisters and brothers in Christ.”

The display of Christian Freedom is diametrically opposite of what is found in the Watchtower religion and other high control groups, or the Catholic Church. Long ago, we sat down and read Romans 14, which showed the wide latitude that was common in early Christianity, and the challenges and responsibilities this brought. We are challenged when others use their freedom in a way different than how we use ours. But we can still come together in unity, around the essentials, that is the Christ.


Praise God we can be saved by His power

Congratulations Brother Londo on following your conscience and doing what the Spirit has impelled you to do! We pray that God’s blessing will be upon your ministry and service to Him. We also pray Father that you will continue to guide us as struggling Christians and lead us out of the mind control of the Watchtower where we can serve you and your Christ to the fullest extent possible.

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261 Comments on Questions about our baptism

  1. C M says:

    Another great article I check almost every day to see if there is a new one uploaded. When and if we truly understand christ and god’s word you will then really be ready to baptize as a tue christian. A question I have asked myself and prayed about, the answer has now been shown to me thank you Eric aka Bro JJ.

    Your Brother C M

  2. Londo says:

    Thanks, Eric!

    I wasn’t the only person baptized that Reformation Sunday. Our fellow JWStruggler Rookie was baptized with me as well. Under Witness theology, Rookie never felt worthy enough to be baptized.

    That is the wonderful thing about understanding Christianity 101. Our Father loves us, His Son loves us. God declares us worthy by blood of His Son. We can no longer call “defiled the things God has cleansed.”

  3. okinawa says:


    Christian baptism is not the symbol of dedication.
    It’s the symbol of repentance.

    Read more here.


  4. Wakeupwitness says:

    I remember when I got baptized as a witness back in 1992. To be honest, I got baptized just because all of the other young folks were getting baptized in my kingdom hall.
    Looking back I wished I had never gotten baptized.

    • JJ says:

      Many young JW children feel this way. And since there is no “honorable” way to leave the religion and just be a Christian, this triggers the need for fading, secrets, the cognitive dissonance, etc. It all arises and reaps terrible pain on so many of us due to the harsh and restrictive policies of the men in the ivory towers.

      Crisis of Conscience shined a light on the way that works, and nothing has changed, it is still that same way to a great extent.

  5. JimmyG says:

    Has anyone noticed that they have changed the 2nd baptism question again? I was at(reluctantly) a Special Assembly Day last week and the question was as follows: “Do you understand that your dedication and baptism identify you as one of Jehovah’s Witnesses in association with His spirit anointed association”. Are they now not just ‘spirit directed’, but ‘spirit anointed’? Are they now dropping the word ‘organisation’ and replacing it with ‘association’?

  6. Frank says:

    JimmyG, I think this is a VERY subtle way of conditioning (actually re-conditioning)the rank-and-file to accept the new status the GB have given themselves. Of course, they are now claiming to be spirit-anointed. Many will rightly assume that if they are spirit-anointed, then what they say will be spirit-inspired. With all the evidence, does this make sense?

  7. Frank says:

    Hi again JimmyG. Check this out for more tweaking of the inkblot.


  8. Confused says:

    Great article Eric…..I’ve been thinking of getting re-baptized as well……I want a clean conscience on my personal choice of dedication/repentance…..your articles are very encouraging to read…..unlike the legalistic rules I was once dedicated to….

  9. Disappointed says:

    Well, like bro Londo I was baptised as mid-teen, however I felt I was doing it for all the right reasons, because I loved God and Christ and recognised Jesus as my saviour etc. As it was before the change of wording of the second question I am quite happy that my baptism was acceptable to God and still stands.

    Bro JimmyG I hadn’t noticed that yet but will keep my ears open at our next assembly.

  10. andrew says:

    I too was baptized in my teens. I was 14. I also feel I had the right motivation. Although it was also what was expected of me.

  11. John S says:

    Brother Eric,

    I am not a little vexed by the post here. You start out by saying we are in a spiritual warfare, and the world is under attack from forces trying to deceive us into a narrow view, or unscriptural view of Christ’s gospel. But what about this experience here about these guys getting baptized makes them shine to you that they have been ‘liberated’, and are now experiencing the truth that WT is implied to have kept them from?

    I just don’t see how their baptism and subsequent membership into this church is such a cause for rejoicing. I wonder what great truth they have found? When a church baptizes you,…you ARE a member, sorry. You are on their role as a baptized member. Now, what are the teachings of this faith, that we should be looking at? Are you suggesting on your site now, church attendance, and “Anything Goes” religion? Because that is what this particular non-denominational church teaches. Whatever happened to your earlier resolves you used to post about following the truth as Christ taught?

    I am merely stating a question for you. Why did you start this site? Why did you resign from JW? Was truth and loyalty to the true gospel important to you 3 years ago? Last year? Now, interfaith is what you have posted? And there are people pushing the trinity doctrine on your site, yet you let it go, because why? I am really not happy with the apparent apathy to John 4:24 now being displayed, …when once, TRUTH was the light driving this engine.

    What about the elder’s meetings, and judicial meetings? What was your champion? Interfaith? or Christ, who said, “Worship with Spirit and truth.”?

    Some on the site, one of your close friends states”We don’t have enough evidence in the Bible to ascertain what is truth. We just have to believe in Christ.” Yet this one says he will not return. And you let this slide, too.

    Would you like to comment on these things? I must say, I am fearing your site has become a platform to promote teachings that are NOT CHRISTIAN. You need to read your site, and evaluate your directives for this site, I believe, as some things have changed for the worse, and it has become a battleground of Bible Truth verses, “Anything Goes” , any theory, church teaching, philosophy, etc.
    I will take your first -mentioned prime directive….which the Apostle Paul expressed. We are in a war against dark forces, Satan, and the demons, and a prostitute named Babylon , who is misleading the entire inhabited earth with a cup of the wine of her spiritual fornication. The Catholic church is largely responsible for the prime creation of the huge religious field of Christendom. Look at this church record. It stands as a heinous, murderer of Christians. So, what will we do? Rejoice when JW’s leave WT, and get baptized into a church that teaches and accepts Babylon’s teachings of 1500 years? Trinity? Interfaith: Catholic teachings and all?
    Whatever happened to “The TRUTH shall set you free?”

    • Londo says:

      Bro John,

      I would like to point out that Tom got baptized with me, but he is not a member of the church.

    • Tom Bowers says:

      Hello John, this is rookie good to see you again :)
      I was so happy to finally be baptized into Christ after all these years. And yes, I was baptized into Christ, into the ONE CHURCH, because there is no other church. All these little cliques and organizations are not the Church, because the Church is ALL CHRISTIANS. I did not become a member of the “church” brother Londo belongs to. I simply asked to be baptized by another Christian, yet I have no problem with Londo being a member there. Why are you acting so suspicious and adding discord to this happy occasion for the two of us ? Why can’t you just be happy that we are doing what our God given conscience is telling what to do ? If I want to become a member of a certain “church” or denomination, then what business is that of yours ? Are you trying to be like the disciples who complained to Jesus about the man casting out demons in Jesus’ name – that he wasn’t “with us” ? How did Jesus respond ? We do not have a patent on “The Truth”. Why ? because no one owns Jesus and HE is the truth. If you are a follower of Jesus, do you not have the truth ? What was Jesus concerned with ? What about Paul ? Why did Paul say that he would only preach Christ, and him impaled ? Because Jesus is the Christ and our savior and we must listen to him. Well, listen to him now. Don’t judge people because you will be judged with the same measure you are judging others with. There are only a few things in Scripture that are clear as to what a Christian should believe in. The rest is up to us to figure out for ourselves and not to force our opinions on others. And stop being so afraid of everything in this world or Satan. Is Satan more powerful than Christ ? Can Satan separate us from our Lord ? There are only 2 people in your relationship with Jesus – him and YOU. No one can separate you from Jesus unless you let them do that. The Watchtower likes to make put fear in it’s followers – BE AFRAID, BE VERY AFRAID..of everything. Is that the right attitude to have ? Is there fear in love ? If you are in Christ love, then what have you to fear ? Who can separate you from the love of the Father through Jesus Christ our lord ? I got baptized into Christ. Please don’t make this something that it is not. Please don’t use this wonderful day for me as a cause for division. I hope you are doing well and your son also.

  12. Break the Chains says:

    So now they’ve changed the 2nd baptismal question. When will the deceiving end? I often feel like I am the only one that can see through there disgusting lies and deceit when I am forced to sit through an assembly day or convention. I find myself looking at the hundreds or sometimes thousands of people in the audience and I just want to scream at the top of my lungs, “Come on! Are you people really that gullible? WAKE UP!” I can’t wait till my children and I can be FINALLY FREE.

  13. Frank says:

    Congratulations for seeing that this ‘new light’ has more than subtle implications, Break the Chains. The point is that it is subtle. Only time will tell whether it nets them the results they so desire. If the organisation had just stuck to what the Scriptures told them to do (preaching the good news), they would likely not be dealing with the Conti dilemma and the like. Sadly, the human cost to agreeing, particularly with this second question, has and will continue to be great.

    The sad thing is that when a person says, “yes” to this (they have to or they can’t get baptised) they are agreeing, at least in the mind of the framers of the questions, to accept whatever human reasoning can come up with and to have pretty much every part of their lives regulated.

  14. JimmyG says:

    To ‘John’- I am a JW and I believe in the biblically provable teachings of the WT. However, Christians of all ‘types’ should feel free to express themselves. This site is one avenue to do this- we do not get this ‘freedom’ within the WT Org.

    To ‘Break the chains’- thank you friend for expressing exactly how I too have felt for many months now. I sat through a whole Assembly Day recently with those very thoughts. You are not alone, there are at least two of us! Unfortunately I still have the torment of sitting through 3 days of the District Convention in January, where we will be told that the Org is our ‘Mother’ and a plastic wizard will spiritually and emotionally damage my children.

    ‘Frank’- you bring up a good point about saying ‘yes’ to the 2nd question. After I saw 2 people (yes, only 2 and both male, in an audience of over 1100 people), I wondered if anyone had bothered to tell them that the 2nd question as it appears in the ‘od’ book would be worded differently on their baptism day? My guess is, probably not. If that’s not deceit, I don’t know what is.

  15. lifeforce says:

    Dear JJ
    thank you for this article and Londo’s story of his renewed commitment to being with God and Christ. I have asked myself this question about my own baptism although only 16 I meant every part of it and don’t remember the questions I answered ‘yes’ to in 73.

    Tom – I hope you had a great day with londo getting Baptised, please share how that day was for you and your expereince, I would love to read it.

    John – you are doing it again being dictatorial as the WT ORG is and when you can let this go you will have peace. I want to read positive experiences, not criticism of others. you make your self JUDGE and I am sorry to tell you that Jesus is the only Judge, relieve yourself of this pressure and hand over this job to Jehovah and Jesus Christ. IN AA we use the saying ‘that the only job for me is to clean up my side of the street’. If I pay attention to my side of the street I leave others free to do what they wish with theirs. Be loving brother as I am sure you are.

    I am really pleased this has come to the table for discussion and I will enjoy praying and reflecting on my Baptism and what it has meant, still means and maybe will mean in the future.

    Life force

  16. BreaktheChains says:

    Dear JimmyG – Thank you for your kind words of encouragement. It feels so good to know that I’m not alone. Don’t let the ORGANIZATION damage your children. We as parents have more control and influence than what we sometimes give ourselves credit for. I know that as a parent I have decided to NOT let my children view any of the “sparlock cartoon videos” because I don’t want my children to be mentally contolled or manipulated. I want my children to keep there innocence and childlike imagination for as long as possible. They don’t need an ORGANIZATION to BREAK there spirit and CRUSH there DREAMS. Please be strong and know that if you inculcate the love of Christ Jesus and his father Jehovah in your children then they’ll be just fine. Children are smart and can easily see through the smoke and mirrors, a lot better than us adults can. I wish you and your family all the best.

  17. BreaktheChains says:

    Dear JimmyG – Thank you so much for your kind words of encouragement. It feels so good to know that I’m not alone. Please don’t let the ORGANIZATION damage your children. We as parents have a lot more control and influence over our family than what we sometimes realize. I have made the decision as a concerned mother to NOT let my children view any of the new “Sparlock cartoon indoctrination videos”. I will NOT let this ORGANIZATION contol or manipulate my children. I will not let this ORGANIZATION CRUSH there DREAMS. I want my children to keep there innocence and childlike imagination for as long as possible. Please be strong and know that if you inculcate the love of Christ Jesus and his father Jehovah in your childrens hearts then they’ll be just fine. Children are a lot smarter than we sometimes give them credit. They can see through the smoke and mirrors better than us adults can. I wish you and your family all the best.

  18. JJ says:


    I appreciate your concerns and I feel as several of the other posters do- especially as Tom does. He is another of our newly baptized brothers in Christ! Amen Tom what a thrill to hear yours and Londo’s story!

    That is the key John- CHRIST. Not a church building. No edifice, and no person or pope will ever save us. We cannot focus on the splinter in our brother’s eye while we have a rafter in our own. Not a single one of us can or should be a Judge or Lord over his fellow slave.

    I am not going to get worked up over what church they got immersed in. It is none of my business and doesn’t matter to me really. It’s NOT MY JOB to worry about it!! And this gives me a lot of joy. It used to be my job years ago when I was a JW elder. I had to run around and police the friends, and discipline them and yes, judge them. Well I’m done doing that brother. Never again will I sit in that seat.

    Do I believe everything the same as Londo or Tom does? Probably not…but it doesn’t matter to me. Does it matter to God and Christ? That’s for them to say. I’m just gonna work on cleaning up my side of the street to borrow that phrase from Brother Lifeforce.

    I love you bro, and I respect your years and your zeal for truth, but I must stand by the article and by this website. It is not perfection and it certainly isn’t spirit-inspired as the writers of the WT like to claim their magazine and writings are.

    JWStruggle is just me and my thoughts, mixed up with a few other Christian men and women, sharing their journey and their viewpoints as they travel through this life. That’s all this place is. Hopefully it encourages some brothers and sisters and helps them through their day. Maybe it can help some active or former JWs to sort things out and lose the guilt and the anger and the judgementalism they learned from the WT Org. That’s my goal for the site- nothing more nothing less.

  19. BreaktheChains says:

    Dear JJ- I am so proud of you and all that you have accomplished. You have always shown a very deep love and humility when writing your articles. I have been greatly encouraged. When I was at my darkest hour you really helped to soften my heart that had become so cold,bitter and angry. I hope you can see that there are many of us that support you and that you are loved deeply as a brother. I am so happy for you that you are finally free. Keep up the good work where ever the Lord leads you. God Bless.

  20. JimmyG says:

    Dear ‘BreaktheChains’. I have a real balancing act on my hands. My wife is a devout JW. It’s almost impossible to ‘get through’ to her when discussing anything about the Org or challenging JW beliefs. She comes up with all the jargon that all JWs are trained to say. At the same time, our marriage is good and I want to keep it that way, so I still go to most meetings, do field service to keep her happy and ‘keep up appearances’. But then there are our 2 children to add into the mix. I think my children may be a bit older than yours- 11 and 13. I think I will use the ‘Sparlock’ dvd as a training tool with them on how we can be manipulated if we don’t develop our reasoning powers and the danger of allowing organisations like the WT to control us.

    If you don’t mind me asking, do you have a plan on how to ‘break free’from the Org? It may be helpful in my case, as I’m looking for a way out too.

    Regards, Jimmy

  21. BreaktheChains says:

    Dear Jimmy- I’m so glad that you wrote back to me. We seem to be in the same position. I woke up to “the truth about the truth” exactly one year ago. It was the “Generation” change that made me suspicious that maybe the Organization isn’t what they claim to be. That was what started my “investigation”. My husband is a third generation jehovah witness and is completely blinded by the society. He has a real emotional connection to the people at our kingdom hall and so he doesn’t want to listen to anything I have to say. I think he doesn’t want to lose the social ties that he has. I can understand the fear he’s feeling because the “organization” is the only thing he’s ever known. We have two beautiful children, our daughter is 9 and our son is 6. I’ve been able to “break free” a lot this past year. Within one years time me and my children have been able to completely stop going to the Tuesday night meetings. We no longer go out in service as a family and we only really attend the Sunday meeting once every two weeks. I still do feel a lot of guilt when I see my husband going alone to the meetings or out in service but I know that I need to do whatever it takes to get my family free from the Organization. I had a heart to heart talk with my husband and I told him that I am really stumbled by the behaviour of the Gov. body members and the watchtower society as a whole. I told him that I can’t invest my heart back in the org. untill I get a few things cleared up. I did write a registered letter to David Splane[Gov. body member] asking that he explain to me why did the society join the U.N. as an N.G.O for nearly 10 years. I told my husband that once we get a response back from the society then I will let him know what I found out. I plan on focusing on the “blood guilt” of the society. The Insight books really explain the seriousness of belonging to a bloodguilty org. and how Jehovah would view you and your family. I plan on showing my husband the Awake articles about the persecution of the Malawian bros. and sisters and how they were slaughtered maintaining there christian neutality but when it came to our own gov. body members they hypocritically chose to compromise there christian neutrality to get a library card from the United Nations. The watchtower society has blood on there hands for sending our poor bros. and sisters to the slaughter for a cause that they themselves don’t even uphold. I know my husband. He is a good man. I know that he would NEVER risk his children being involved with something that Jehovah would view as “unclean and fit for destruction”.I know there is one thing that my husband hates more than anything else in this world and that thing is “HYPOCRISY”. I’m learning to take it day by day and PRAY a lot to Jehovah to open my husbands eyes. I really believe the KEY to breaking your family free is focusing on Jesus and his teachings. I truly believe that if you focus family worship night on studying the life of Jesus straight from your bible then maybe this might help to open your wifes eyes. I think the secret to breaking free is to be patient with your spouse and use whatever is her “weak spot” to help open her eyes. My husbands two “weak spots” is his children and the deep hatred he has for anyone who is HYPOCRITICAL. That is what I will use to try to help my husband and yet still try to keep my family together. You are right, it is a real balancing act. I am a little nervous to tell you what I am planning because I don’t want you to push to hard with your wife. I would feel terrible if you were to follow my strategy and it were to blow up in your face. Listen, you are in a much better situation than I am in because your children are at an age where you can really help them. Most children I know start to question there beliefs at around the age of 11 or 13. I think if you continue to talk with your children and reason with them about what Jesus taught vs. what the society teaches then they’ll have there eyes open to the truth. I have been teaching my daughter about Jesus and she is already awakened to ttatt and she is only 9. Jesus is the way,the truth and the life. I really believe that if we are patient and loving with our family then they will be drawn to us and our way of living. They will want to know why we seem so happy and at peace. Take every opportunity to let your light shine and direct your family to Christ rather than an Organization. I hope this helps you. I know that it’s not an easy path we’re on. I’ll let you know if my plan works. I really hope I am taking the right course. More than anything I just want to keep my family together. Let me know what you think. I am always open to any advice you or anyone else can give. Sincerely, BreaktheChains

  22. BreaktheChains says:

    JJ-Congratulations on your baptism.

  23. BreaktheChains says:

    Sorry JJ. I meant to say CONGRATULATIONS brother Londo on your baptism. I must of been thinking of you when I tried to send out my congrats. I am new to using computers so please be patient with me and all the mistakes I’ll be sure to make.

  24. Londo says:

    Thank you, Sister!

  25. John S says:

    I would like to say briefly in my defense, how I feel about the comments I have ‘judged ‘ anybody. This site is full of comments about the Truth about the truth….WT lies, even bloodguilt. When I bring up about joining a church that may be bloodguilty of abortion , sending men to war, and other atrocities as possibly violating Bible commands, even the one about idolatry: worshiping Christ as God. Why do you say to me, you are judging individuals’ souls?

    Why am I being judged as a ‘judger of men’because I want to expose the danger of offending Father and Son in engaging in false-religious worship?

    Anyone…Do you think John 4:24 should be thrown out of your Bibles? How about John 17:17? Exodus 20:3?

    Blast away at what I say, if you want, but I think you all are very low to accuse me of judging men’s souls. I am trying to teach Bible truth only and Christian teachings. Yet, some here say I am a hard, and unloving judge of others. So……I must say, no, I am not.

    I have stood fast for truth, and got out of WT, years ago, and took the consequences to my marriage and family, and there ought to be repect instead of calling me a judge. I have fought for truth for this site, and to keep it a holy place where Bible truth is championed. Something others feel is impossible, but I disagree.

    I will say, I am looking for another place to share the scriptures, so you that feel I am a judgemental- blowhard will be relieved. Maybe in time you will see what I was trying to do was help you all, instead of not saying a word when wrong doctrines are being promoted and allowed to breed on this site, and very serious lies are being supported here, in the forum out back. Father and Christ can be offended, as has been shown many times in the scriptures. 2 Cor. 6:14-18 But the spirit on the site most popular now, is, “We just want to say whatever we want to believe is OK” If, that is the way you feel,…I don’t belong here quoting scripture, do I?

    It is time for me to go do something else, but, I wish you all the best, if you will follow the shepherd’s voice, you will benefit.

    • JJ says:

      Dear Brother John

      No one said (unless I missed one of the comments) that you were personally judging anyone. I mentioned that I had been guilty of judging the brothers during the years I was an elder, and that there was no way I’d ever go back to doing that.

      I don’t think any of us here on JWS want wrong doctrines to be promoted either! Sharing in Brother Tom’s and Brother Londo’s baptismal experience is part of what this article is about, but it’s not about what doctrine or theology a person believes in. That very well could be and is the subject of many good threads on the forum.

      The intent is not to say that everyone needs to go out and get re-baptized, and several have commented that they didn’t feel a need to do this. That’s their personal Christian conscience, and the Holy Spirit leading them to feel that way, and we all respect that viewpoint as well. I was baptized as a JW and a Christian when I was 17 and for me I do not feel the HS leading me to be baptized again at this time in my life. I know that for these many decades I have been serving God as best as I could. And like Apollos (Acts 18:24-28), now I have learned about the Christ “more correctly” via TTATT and I thank God everyday for this gift!

      Please accept my apology if I have offended you, it was not my intent. You are welcome here, and no doubt you will be welcomed on other Bible discussion forums and blogs as well, since you are a true student of the Word and a lover of the Father and the Son.

      In Christ,
      Eric aka JJ

    • Londo says:

      Brother John,

      Romans 14:4 says, “Who are you to judge the house servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for Jehovah can make him stand.”

      And verses 11, 12: “But why do you judge your brother? Or why do you also look down on your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of God; for it is written: “‘As I live,’ says Jehovah, ‘to me every knee will bend down, and every tongue will make open acknowledgment to God.’” So, then, each of us will render an account for himself to God.”

      Our relationship with God and Christ is an individual responsibility each one will render an account for it. How can we say how Holy Spirit individually is guiding a person? If so, could we be in danger of going against the path Holy Spirit is nudging an individual toward?

      Even a church building or denomination is merely a gathering place of fellow believers in Christ, each having individual responsibility for their actions. Why cast suspicions, envies and things like these at a community of believers we have not met? Does it show insight or wisdom from above to do otherwise?

      I only have control over my own actions and because of imperfection, sometimes not well. If someone believes or practices something different, it is not for me to control that. If it is a course against what the Spirit is guiding them, then it is between them and God. Not me and them.

      As JJ read at his judicial committee, “Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait till the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of men’s hearts. At that time each will receive his praise from God.”

  26. Freethinkerinjah says:

    I just want to say hi to Daniel ,Ruth, JJ and everyone thank you for your comments. I have not been writing much, I am very content and reading others comments which I find something to agree with in all comments.
    Everybody does such a great job telling their own truth and writing so well, that I really do not have anything to add at this point. But I just add encouragement to all and am grateful for this site. And am looking forward to meeting all my brothers and sisters under Jehovah kingdom in the future. Your sister in the truth, freethinkerinjah

  27. JimmyG says:

    Hello again ‘Breakthechains. Apart from the gender reversal, we are in a similar situation. I was raised a witness, baptised at 18 and my wife studied with her family as a teenager, got baptised at 17. She is similar to your husband with all the emotional attachments to the cong you mentioned in your earlier post. I started ‘investigating’ about a year ago too. I stepped down as an elder nearly 2 yrs ago. My reason for ‘investigating’ was all the little alarm bells going off in my mind over the yrs. I just chose to ignore them until now. For instance,as an elder, I often asked myself why do we need an ‘elders book’? About half of the book is specifically on judicial procedures, including a long list of ‘disfellowshipping offenses’. Surely we need only the bible. The JW judicial procedure is not biblical. I could go on…..

    I am familiar with the UN, Malawi etc. Don’t expect a reply from David Splane. The GB made it clear in a WT article last year not to write letters to them anymore. I hope they can’t identify you, because they will send a copy of your letter to your local BOE and they’ll come knocking at your door to ‘readjust you’.

    I am interested to know why your husband is ok with your children not going to the meeting with him and if anyone (such as the elders) has queried him about this, being the ‘spiritual head’ of the family. I try to find excuses not to go to meetings as often as possible, but we generally go as a family.

    As far as the children are concerned, my 11 yr old son and 13 yr old daughter are well along in their indoctrination and now it’s time for de-progamming. They have noticed I’ve changed- my daughter says “Dad you disagree with everything”. I said to her the other day that we should question our beliefs and develop our reasoning powers etc. Your children are younger, so the indoctrination will not be as difficult to dislodge.

    Family worship- you make a good point. We have a system where we take turns choosing what will be discussed and I always pick reading and discussing a passage from the gospels. The kids struggle with it, but I will persevere. They want to watch the Society’s dvds. We watched the ‘Faith in action’ part 2 this week. A typical JW propaganda piece, whitewashed and sanitised and I know all the stuff that’s been left out but I can’t say anything as it would upset my wife.

    As for your ‘escape’ plan, I understand why you want to keep this to yourself. It’s just interesting to know how others manage to ‘leave’ and not ‘get pushed’. Kind regards, Jimmy.

  28. BreaktheChains says:

    Dear JimmyG- I am very busy today. I’ve got a huge list of errands that I’ve got to get done but I promise I will respond to your comment on Monday, after the weekend. I think you might find somethings I have to say about what’s been going on with my husband and the elders a little funny. I have a theory as to why the elders have pretty much let me and my children slip through the cracks. I’ll fill you in as soon as I can. Have a Great weekend.

  29. JimmyG says:

    I look forward to reading about it. Enjoy your weekend

  30. John S says:

    Thanks, Eric and Londo, for the encouragement. Father showed me in a dream last night I had ‘shotgunned ‘ this site with hard-hitting words. I am sorry. Londo, I know not every church promotes false religion. I even saw a church of your denomination on a trip I took a few days ago, here in Mississippi. And I feel bad about not being happy over yours and Rookie’s baptism, but paranoid, and judgemental, yes, I admit. Others here, too, have been giving me counsel about balance, and judging hearts. I will think about all this.

    I am working on another site where more doctrinal matters can be considered, as well as personal viewpoints. I feel I can be more effective on another site, as much discussed on the forum is highly offensive to me, sorry. But I am appreciative of your invitation to comment, Eric. I will give this site a rest, though….I have said too much, and projected my voice way too strenuously. I hope others will come who see the truth as valuable in forming their manner of worship similar to what many of us here discussed, as I was not the lone voice,….but one of many. We are setting it up now. It will not be fancy, but I feel it will be pleasing and appeal to the doctrinal, and truth-hungry, who have an appetite for deeper truths, and want to contribute to that end. Thanks again, I will let you know when it is ready.

    One last word of apology to brother Rookie, whom we all love so, and are blessed to know. Congradulations on your baptism…and you, too, Londo.

  31. Londo says:

    Thank you, Brother John. There is wisdom listening to the “multitude of counselors” from diverse backgrounds. Without them, we would break out against all practical wisdom (Proverbs 18:1).

    I feel in isolation we can easily fester in our own juices. This is why I’ve reached out to fellow Christians…not only in the Christian Church, but Methodists, Presbyterians, Evangelical Lutherans, or on Meetup. And here in Central Virginia, we us Strugglers, Rookie, Stirling, that_quiet_girl, and myself, who gather as a small group, pass the bread and wine, and talk about the Bible.

    In all these settings, whether at home or in a church, we gather to “incite to love and fine works”. We know that where “two or three” are gathered in Christ’s name, He and His Father are there as well through the Spirit. We are then further enabled to serve God and our Neighbor. In the end, that is what it is all about.

  32. BreaktheChains says:

    John S- I understand your viewpoint. I have been visiting this site for about 6 months now but I am new to posting comments. You mentioned that you were offended by some of the comments that had been expressed. I hope I didn’t offend you. I am just trying to find my way just like everyone else. I haven’t been to other churches or taken up other doctrinal beliefs. At this point I do feel very much like you do. I am so afraid of doing anything that might hurt Jehovah God or his son Christ Jesus again. I feel that we have ALL been deeply spiritually hurt and abused by the watchtower organization. It’s hard for me to even read my bible or pray anymore because of the deep wounds I have. I hope that you can see that when you share scriptures and share truth we all really benefit. This is the only spiritual food that I am receiving at this time. If my comments seem harsh or angry I need everyone to understand that my anger is directed at the Watchtower Society and NOT at Jehovah,Christ or my bros. and sisters[I am trying to let the anger go and develop a more “Christ like” attitude]. I wish you all the best in your new endeavors.

  33. lifeforce says:

    Dear Bro John,

    I am sorry too if i have accused you and been harsh, I know you care and maybe you have the advantage of being freer longer and in a more settled place. Thank you for your apologies and humility in this.

    Dear Braking the Chains,

    I totally get how hurt you feel, I was in a kind of shock to begin with when Holy spirit led me to new ways of being free and understanding the love shown to us by Jesus Christ.

    You are doing well and going slowly and taking your time, there is no rush and Jehovah had a specific job for me for 5 years whilst getting to understand what was wrong. When that was done he showed me clearly it was time to fade, and I have decided to not write a letter of dissociation as I love my bro and sis still in, I have done nothing wrong. I like you find it hard to read or study and get into deep issues and I just keep it very simple with daily reading by Selwyn Hughes who writes a daily text called Every Day With Jesus. There is a theme that covers 2 months. There are odd bits I don’t agree with and that is ok. It is practical application to everyday life and I have found it soul lifting.

    I have had much support and on the topic of baptism some interesting things happening. A good friend of mine belongs to Church of England Anglican in uK which is very conservative in structured. She asked her vicar if he would talk to me about Baptism, I have met him and he knows my back ground. He said he couldn’t he didn’t have any knowledge to help me.

    So I talked to my local Methodist outreach worker, who has helped me loads by just praying for me and chatting over the last few months. She listened and thought and at first said she wasn’t sure, but that God and Jesus love my service and dedication no matter where I have been and done. Then she said maybe I could think of my first baptism as JW as being in the old covenant, and Jesus was inviting me to now be included in the new Covenant. I liked what she said. She then said I could be re-baptised in any way I wish as a Christian, water, river swimming pool, a blessing and she could arrange it and i wouldn’t be a member of ‘a church’. I was moved to tears as she prayed for me. I haven’t made my mind up about it yet and will continue to pray for guidance.


  34. Londo says:

    Lifeforce: That is a touching experience. It shows what Christianity is all about.

  35. John S says:

    Thank you all for the forgiveness. I am growing in knowledge, and being humbled is good for me. That is growth….discipline.

    Sister LifeForce….I, too, attended a woman-pastor Methodist church for a few times. I found little to disagree with. The ‘Doxology’, I felt was accurate. They believe the Son and the Father fairly close to what I think, and enjoyed the services(Though a little bland by many tastes)They do have a format to follow, but give a little talk, too, and this sister/pastor was very sweet.

    I would think being baptized in Jesus’ name…for forgiveness of sins could be performed by many different pastor/preachers. I wouldn’t want just any old passer-by to do it, but a person who gives evidence of the Spirit in life and teaching. Good enough, as it is to God and Christ you are doing this….not to any man, right? They know your motive. Best to you.

    You have had a rough life, and I know some of my comments have discouraged you. Please forgive me, aren’t you trying to raise a couple kids, too? And without a husband? Or am I confused…or are you Sister Confused from last year? Yes, You gave me some counsel before, but I listened to every word, and it was appropriate, don’t worry. I have asked here many times….if I get out of line, and I do often, please show me love, and tell me.

    I hope things will smooth out for you soon. Every dog has it’s day. Yours will come.
    No, BreaktheChains, you never hurt my feelings in anything. But I have stomped on many toes here, and I must repent.

  36. BreaktheChains says:

    lifeforce- Thank you for the advice. I will definitely check out that Selwyn Hughes daily text site. I do believe that there is a whole new world out there waiting for me where I can finally find my own christian freedom in Christ . I love what you said about our first baptism as jw’s and how it can be viewed as being in the old covenant and now Jesus is inviting us to be in the new covenant. You said exactly what I needed to hear. Thanks for sharing. God bless.

  37. lifeforce says:

    Dear John,

    thank you for your kind words and sharing your experience with us too. I have 3 daughters and 3 grandchildren, none of which are jw’s. My husband left first about 15 years ago which shattered me. I had grown up in a divided home with many arguments and fights.I couldn’t bear it that now I was to be in a divided marriage. My DH never tried to pull me out and would support me if he could. My children then followed and I now am freeing myself. I have been quite involved with working with brothers and sisters who have experienced child abuse and speaking out about the non-disclosure to the authorities. I wrote to Brooklyn it came back to the UK and I got a letter from Bethel here, which said to discuss with Elders. round in a loop, I had already been discussing it to no avail with Elders. I realised I could not do anymore and started to withdraw.

    I feel the same as you say, about baptism, I would want it to be done in a meaningful way. Do you think it always has to be with water? I was thinking of the account in Ephesians when Paul was sorting out the disagreements they had and asked them if they had Holy Spirit and they said no they were baptised by John. So he laid his hands upon them and they were baptised by Spirit.

    Dear breaking the chains, I have had a really good time just visiting all sorts of different services and training. it has just been a great adventure. Some I like and some I haven’t.

    JJ i am a sister and planning to keep that the same! We have the Synod voting again tomorrow on the Appointing of Women to Bishops, causing quite a controversy. Maybe a topic for you in the next news letter. The Role of women.

    God bless you all

  38. BreaktheChains says:

    Hello again JimmyG. I hope you had a good weekend. I have to say that it sounds to me like you have a beautiful family. You seem to be on the right path. Your wife and children adore you. Keep on doing what you’ve been doing. You are right about your children’s ages,11 and 13 and how it will be more difficult to de-program them, but NOT impossible. I think it will be easier to dislodge the indoctrination from my children’s minds because they are younger. It sounds to me though like you’ve got everything under control. Your family is lucky to have you. The last time we spoke you had asked if the elders had asked my husband why our children aren’t going to the meetings. Well, I promised you a story so here it goes. Do you remember that feb.15,2012 article entitled “Happiness is possible in a divided household.” Well that article about that poor sister that was beaten and abused by her husband really upset me. I was raised as a catholic. I didn’t start studying with jehovah’s witnesses till I was 18 years old. I was baptized when I was 20. My dad was a very violent and abusive man to my mother and me and my sisters. That watchtower article really hit home for me. I was enraged and disgusted when I read it. Well when I was at the meeting and that article was being discussed I raised my hand to say a comment during the study. I had a “public verbal breakdown”. I attacked the integrity of the writers of that article. I said exactly how I felt about that article and how the advice to stay in an abusive marriage was very irresponsible to say the least. I didn’t hold anything back. Well, there was a HUSH over the congregation after I finished my comment. I’m not condoning my behaviour. I felt very disappointed in myself for losing control that way in such a public place of worship. The watchtower study conductor fumbled and stuttered to regain control of the study. You could hear a pin drop. After the meeting was over I went to my vehicle and waited for my husband and children in the parking lot. After that meeting I never had anyone speak to me again. I thought for sure the elders would pull me aside and discipline me for my behaviour that day but they did NOTHING. I haven’t even gotten so much as a phone call to see if I’m o.k. I had a friend tell me that everyone has been talking about me out in service. The rumor is that I’ve gone CRAZY[there words not mine]. I think that the elders are to nervous to talk to me. I think that they are afraid that I’ll have another public outburst. They told my husband to try not to aggravate me. I think the elders are relieved to see I’m fading from the meetings. I’m one less problem for them to have to worry about. I also know that my congregation has had a lot of serious problems this past year. There has been multiple disfellowshippings. The elders seem pushed to the limit. As for my husband, he seems to be wearing out aswell. My husband doesn’t push to hard about our children going to the meetings because he knows that me and our children are a package deal. My children are very attached to me. The elders know this aswell and they know that if I’m not at the meeting then our children want to stay home with me. Our bond is hard to break. As for my letter I sent to David Splane I did give him my full name and address. I don’t know if the elders will come after me or not but I’m really not that worried. I’ve already been labeled a “crazy woman” what else could they possibly do to me? Thanks for listening. Take care. BreaktheChains

    • Frank says:

      There’s nothing crazy about you at all, Break the Chains. Having been conditioned to accept the subtlety of many things I would not have normally accepted in the Watchtower, this issue of spousal abuse hit me square in the face when it was raised on sites like this. ‘Advising,’ actually obliging particularly female congregants to stay with abusive husbands goes contrary to modern ethics.

      The congregation were happy to think of you as ‘crazy’ or ‘spiritually weak.’ What does this matter? Abuse is bound to find its mark somewhere, even in public places.

      Thank you again for your account. If you can, would you please paragraph your accounts as I’m not very good at word-tracking.

      Thanks Again


  39. BreaktheChains says:

    Dear JimmyG- I posted my comment yesterday but for some reason it didn’t show up. I’m going to restate what I wrote but please disregard my second posting if the first one happens to pop up. In response to your last posting I have to say I am very impressed with how you are dealing with your family. You seem to be on the right path. Your children and wife seem happy and they obviously adore you. Keep on doing whatever it is that you’re doing. I think slowly reprogramming your children is a smart idea. You seem to have everything under control. Keep up the great work. You had also asked if the elders have been questioning why our children haven’t been going to the meetings. Well, here’s what happened. Do you recall the feb.15/2012 watchtower called “Happiness is possible in a divided household.” I was very upset about that article. Domestic violence is something that hits a nerve with me. During that watchtower study I expressed how I felt about that article. I attacked the integrity of the writers and I said that they were extremely irresponsible for encouraging a women whose being battered to stay in that dangerous marriage. I didn’t hold anything back. After I was done my comment there was a HUSH over the congregation. You could hear a pin drop. I don’t condone my behaviour that day and I immediately regretted my comment. I thought for sure the elders were going to pull me aside and discipline me for making such a public outburst during the watchtower study, but, nothing happened. They did NOTHING. I didn’t so much as even get a phone call. After that meeting everyone quit talking to me. The elders avoid eyecontact and people avoid talking with me alltogether. I was told by a friend that everyone talks about me when they’re out in service. She said that everyone seems to think that I’ve completely lost my mind. I think that the elders seem nervous about me. They’re scared that I might make another scene at the meetings. I think that they are relieved that I am fading because I am one less problem to have to worry about even if it does mean that they lose my children aswell. My congregation has been going through a lot of problems. There has been multiple disfellowshippings and a lot of “back room” elder meetings. I think the elders are pushed to there limit. They don’t seem to think that I am a priority right now. They did talk to my husband briefly about our children but he told them that he’s not going to drag our kids to the meeting kicking and screaming if they don’t want to go. He told them that he’s just trying to keep the peace in his family. My husband seems content to go to the Sunday meeting as a family whenever it is possible. I think that my husband may be secretly having doubts about the organization and that is why he’s not PUSHING us to hard. Only time will tell. You had asked about whether or not I gave away my identity when I wrote my letter to David Splane. Well, the answer is YES. I did not hide my true identity. I wrote to the Gov. Body in good faith and I really hope that they’ll write back to me so that I can finally get some closure. I’m not worried about the elders coming after me. They’ve already labelled me a “CRAZY PERSON” so what else could they possibly do to me? Thanks Jimmy for listening. Take care. BreaktheChains

    • whateverhappenedtome says:

      Dear Breakthechains, as i go through your posts, i feel and feel for you. i do admire your courage to really comment in front of everyone about what you think. because to be honest, during WTS i used to also make odd comments but just within my seat and whisper to my seatmate (only if my seatmate is a close friend who would understand my odd ramblings and then we just laugh about it)

  40. BreaktheChains says:

    I don’t know why my comments aren’t being posted. I tried to post a comment to JimmyG twice now but for some reason my comments aren’t being accepted. Sorry Jimmy. Hopefully my comments will pop up later. I don’t think I erased them. I think they are in the system somewhere.

  41. BreaktheChains says:

    I have to apologize. My comment to JimmyG re-posted itself twice. I don’t know what I’m doing wrong. When I try to post a comment sometimes It shows up right away on my computer but sometimes it doesn’t show up till a day later. I end up by re-posting my comment when I don’t see it displayed the first time then It reappears later. Can anyone tell me how I can fix this problem or what I’m doing wrong. I’m new to using computers and I don’t want to annoy everyone with my repeat postings. Thanks.

  42. JimmyG says:

    Hello again breakthechains. Thankyou for your candid experience. As Frank said, there’s nothing crazy about you. All the WT study is, is reading and restating (in the answers given by members of the audience) GB dogma- it certainly ISN’T bible study. You were brave in stating how you felt about this particular experience. You have nothing to regret. The Society doesn’t encourage spontaneous expressions, it suppresses them.

    I do remember this experience and asked my wife at the time, why did she stay in this violent relationship and why is the WT using this experience in the context of ‘happiness is possible in a divided household’? I was particularly disgusted at the so called ‘sister’ who after reading 1 Cor 13:4-7, said to her and I quote,”How many of those acts of love do you show toward your husband (the abuser)?” That comment, in my opinion. intimates that the abused wife somehow ‘deserved’ the beating or contributed to it! Sometimes the WT’s ‘reasoning’ seems insane to me.

    So breakthechains are you saying that when you do go to the occasional meeting NO ONE talks to you? So much for brotherly love. If your so called brothers and sisters think you are struggling, isn’t that the time for them to help you? I’m being a little sarcastic here, as I know unfortunately that this is what tends to happen in these situations.

    As for me, I don’t think I’ve got things under control. Today I talked to my wife about the experience in the Feb 15 WT and she just didn’t see what I was getting at. Her first reaction is to defend anything appearing in WT literature, which is what she did. I thought, being female, that she could relate to this poor woman’s experience. It’s extremely frustrating reasoning with a devout JW. Also an elder (on his own) is coming to ‘see’ me on the weekend, so I’ll provide an update on that if it happens.

    Take care and keep contributing your comments. Sometimes we can feel that we are alone in what we are going through, but our similar circumstances are no doubt shared by many others around the world. Regards, Jimmy

    • Frank says:

      What you’re saying is all too true, Jimmy. As an individual I am particularly interested in the religious mind. When you have a panel of MEN who are more concerned about religious growth and the fundamental interpretation of a book with thousands-of-year-old paradigms, one should expect real damage in fragile modern situations.

      An adherent’s mental conditioning is such that loyalty becomes blind to the human need in issues like this. As one man said, “There’s nothing more dangerous than someone who thinks they’re right.” The fact is, that Western values seemed to have transcended what we once thought was right. Let’s hope this is merely due to moral and ethical carelessness.

      Power to you, Breakthechains!

      Frank 2

  43. BreaktheChains says:

    Dear JimmyG- I don’t regret giving my comment about that Feb.15th article. I still stand by my feelings and the statements that I made that day. The only regret that I DO have is the fact that I allowed myself to be so exposed,raw and vulnerable in front of 120 “BRAINWASHED and FULLY INDOCTRINATED” Watchtower robots. After the meeting that day I was surrounded by about 8 sisters that started to frantically defend this watchtower article. These sisters proceeded to say to me that the sister in the article deserved to be beaten and that she was obviously instigating her husband. One sister even grabbed me by my arms and shook me as she said,”JEHOVAH writes the watchtower articles and JEHOVAH is NEVER WRONG. JEHOVAH has a reason for writing this article and it’s not for you to judge.” After I was bombarded by the group of sisters I decided to get out of there as fast as possible. I didn’t want to have to deal with these people who obviously have there moral compasses out of whack. I hope everything works out for you. Keep in touch. I really appreciate all the advice and kind words of encouragement. Take care. BreaktheChains

    • Frank says:

      I don’t think their moral compass was out of whack, Breakthechains, I think they were broken. I don’t blame you for getting out of there after hearing that Jehovah writes the Watchtower! Did he also write the WTs and Awakes that led all too many to believe that Armageddon was due on or around 1975? If not, who was the writer?

      Frank 2

  44. BreaktheChains says:

    Hi Frank. I finally figured out how to paragraph my comments. Yahoo!

    I guess you guys thought I was kidding when I said I’m a NEWBIE at using computers. I think there’s hope for me yet. LOL!

    Thanks Frank for the kind words.

  45. JimmyG says:

    Hi breakthechains. Are the people in your congregation crazy? Believe me, you are the sane one here. So I guess I can assume that they literally don’t talk to you at the meetings anymore.

    Your use of the word ‘robots’ is so apt. Every time I go to a meeting, I cringe at many of the answers given to questions from the speaker. Their expressions are mere repetitions of WT jargon they read in the literature. The power of indoctrination is illustrated in the case of my wife. She is a lovely person, but even she has said a couple of things to me recently that I have found disappointing and I told her so. The WT seems to be able to ‘make’ indoctrinated followers speak and act in a way that is at odds with their natural personality. I hope you get what I mean.

    Hang in there, I will be in touch soon with my report on my chat with the ‘concerned’ elder. Jimmy

  46. BreaktheChains says:

    Hi Jimmy. Yes, the people in my congregation are CRAZY. If I were to tell you what really goes on at my Kingdom Hall I don’t think you’d believe me. I could write a book. I don’t know how much longer I can stomach being in “Stealth Mode”. If I didn’t have children I’d leave the Organization TODAY. It’s because of my children that I still go to meetings. I don’t want to leave my children at the mercy of the Watchtower Society where they will be controlled and indoctrinated. Atleast if I am there to closely supervise my kids then atleast I can go home after the meeting and deprogram anything I feel is damaging to my children’s health and sprirituality.

    I do get what you mean about the “double personality”. I have seen that kind of odd behaviour in my husband lately aswell. It is shocking to see the kind of influence the “Watchtower Society” can have over another persons mind.

    There is a really interesting website that I want to direct you to. It is called Go to the heading “How Cults Work” and read the article entitled “WARNING! Contains Information cults DON’T want you to know!” I think that this article is the BEST information out there today on explaining the secret world of cults and the mind manipulation that is used to conrol it’s members. When I read this article my jaw dropped. You have to read the entire article right to the end. I love how this information is written in a very factual format. There is NO mention of the words JEHOVAH WITNESSES anywhere in this write up. I hope to one day be able to show my husband this article. I’m interested to know what he’d think. It was a real eye- opener for me. Very SCARY and SHOCKING information. I hope this article will change your life as it has changed mine.

    Warm regards,

  47. Londo111 says:

    JimmyG, BreaktheChains: If y’all haven’t already, perhaps you could join the JWStruggle Forum. This sounds like very good topics for conversation there.

  48. JimmyG says:

    Hi again ‘breakthechains’ and others. I would really like to know about some of the things that have happened in your cong- sounds intriguing. I too am in ‘stealth mode’ for the same reason as you and wonder how long I can keep up the pretence.
    I had a visit from the elder today which lasted more than 2 hrs. I have audio of it, in fact, I ‘wire’ myself up every time I go to a meeting now, in case I am accosted. I want to have a record of all conversations with elders, especially if accusations are made against me.
    The meeting today was ok, too much to write down. As is typical though, he related to me hearsay talk from a couple of people that I am ‘anti-elder’ and anti-society’. I asked for specifics, but he was unable to supply it. He also admitted that another elder who asked my wife if he could come and talk with me at home (which he hasn’t), is ‘scared’ of me. It’s all rather pathetic really. I don’t want to bore everyone with all the details, so I’ll move on.
    Very interesting stuff on ‘Cultwatch’. I have seen it before, but I have taken much more notice of it this time. As you read it, you realise that it is a description of the WT. Thanks for reminding me of it. Regards, Jimmy

  49. Frank says:

    Hi JimmyG. Your accounting that some ‘people’ said you were ‘anti-elder’ and ‘anti-society’ takes us back to the Joseph McCarthy’s anti-Communist America.

    Like the Catholic Inquisition, at fear of religious authority, some were all too happy to implicate others to avoid punishment themselves. Fingering others is exactly what is encouraged under the present religious regime of this organisation.

    McCarthy’s way was to remove human rights such as The right to Due Process, the Right to Representation, and the Right to Silence to achieve his political aims.

    If you say nothing or you say something, either way (at least in the mind of such people) you are an apostate.

    The lesson is: don’t give them the ammunition they so crave. Let them use their own ‘wisdom’ to convict you if it should come it. This will be Biblically illegal.

    Oh, and make sure you make a record of all you go through.

  50. BreaktheChains says:

    Hi JimmyG. I agree with Frank. Please be very careful. It sounds to me that they’re after you. ANYTHING you say will be ammunition for them. Don’t trust anyone. I don’t mean to sound paranoid but even your own wife, family members, or friends of 20 plus years could at this point betray you. Look what happened to JJ and how fast the people he trusted turned on him. I don’t want to see this happen to you.

    Please don’t do anything you’ll regret later. I really think you have to calculate every move you make. They’re on a “witch hunt” and they’ve got there sights set on you. Do what you can to cope and know that you only have a few years before your children are legally adults. I feel you can do more for your children at this point if you are NOT disfellowshipped but that’s just my opinion. You obviously know your circumstances better than I do. I hope you’re not offended by what I just said. I know you’re not looking for trouble but I do feel THEY’RE looking for ANY reason to convict you.

    I know that you are going through a tough time right now but hang in there. You can make it. With all the doctrinal changes the society has made lately and all the lawsuits against them who knows if they’ll even still be standing 5 years from now. I really think this organization’s on the verge of collapsing. That is why they’re tightening their controls. They’re getting DESPERATE.

    Be safe. Record everything. We’ve got your back. Don’t give them the satisfaction of convicting you. Be as innocent as doves.

    Take care and keep in touch.

  51. Frank says:

    Hi Breakthechains. I think in the case of family, most victims of this inquisitional approach who suffer their ‘testimony’ at a judicial committee would be prepared to forgive instantly. Family will always be there – these ‘fairweather’ elders and ‘brothers’ will not. Family only wish things to be the same as before and genuinely believe that the victim’s salvation is dependent on them.

    This is because of mental conditioning.

    Frank 2

  52. Frank says:

    Hi JimmyG. It is well too to watch that agents of the system do not attempt to question your children if all other attempts fail to get grounds for judicial prosecution. Matthew Barrie’s fleshly brother, one of the witnesses who gave evidence against Matthew in his judicial case, had asked his own nephew (Matthew’s son) a number of pointed questions about where his brother (Matthew) had taken his holiday and WITH WHOM.

    Though hearsay, it became one of the pillars on which they built his judicial case. Likewise, innocently, children can be used to mount a case based on cannily-asked questions.


  53. Frank says:

    The reason why we should be concerned with this form of Theocratic War Strategy is that, not being able to calculate the damage that can be done to children unwittingly used to ‘testify’ against their parents, could we not properly call such tactics genuine acts of religious child abuse?

    What we have to remember is that such an unwitting ‘witness’ is not even a baptised member of a congregation and is yet to make their mind up about devotion to religion.

    Apart from this how are we to process this in light of modern ethics?


  54. BreaktheChains says:

    Hi Frank. Wow, you’ve given me a lot to think about. I never knew there could be so many different angles a judicial committee could use to make a case and convict an unsuspecting “awake” brother or sister.

    You had asked the question “How are we to process this in light of modern ethics?” Well, I can say for absolute certain that there is NOTHING ETHICAL about the Watchtower bible and Tract Society. I feel there is no low they wouldn’t be willing to sink to in order to get what they want.

    The Organization is a cold, cruel, cut throat secret society of corrupted men. Anyone whose “awakened to ttatt” is a target.

  55. Frank says:

    Hi Breakthechains. The word ETHIC means: “the study of moral standards and how they affect conduct.” – Encarta Online Dictionary.

    The word, ethics, is a neutral one and only refers a study of morals.

    Back in the first century, children’s rights did not exist and the only relevant reference in the Bible (in the NT) is that they are trained to ‘follow the Lord.’ Obviously, any religion who has children born into it would likely see them as possessed by the religion until they are of age to make their own choice; and this they will regardless of the desire for religious bodies to own them.

    Fortunately today secular ethics have proved to protect some we today may see as vulnerable, that the first century people would not have appreciated. Today’s fine-tuned laws protect the rights of the child and there is a robust court system that requires emotional and physical protection for any child whose testimony is deemed relevant to a court case.

    In Barrie’s case, the father was not informed, the child’s uncle knowingly questioned his nephew to get information that was used indirectly to convict the child’s father, and not one of the other elders on the committee challenged this underhand method of information gathering.

    It seems obvious then that religious ethics tend to, at times fanatically, focus on the congregational collective than protecting the individual. I am not suggesting that the inquistional system requires elders to question children; merely that the system doesn’t seem to discourage it. It appears that the methods used in Matthew Barrie’s case were not scrutinised for irregularities or adherence strictly to Biblical principles. In fact, they don’t seemed to have questioned the methods at all; as shown by the information being influential in the result.

    As threats to ‘unity of belief’ is more greatly perceived, methodology is bound to become more loose in religious bodies.


  56. Frank says:

    Hi JimmyG. My suggestion would be not to watch who your children talk with, but rather WHO TALKS to your children. If they are trained, not to report every conversation, but to deflect any inappropriate enquire with, “You’ll need to see Dad about that,” no one will be any the wiser.


  57. JimmyG says:

    Hi Frank. You are a mind reader. Before going to a meeting today, I spoke with my children (separately) about this- along the lines of “if anyone asks them questions about me, say that you’ll have to speak to my Dad about that”. They were both a bit bemused by this, but the thought has been planted.
    Hi ‘breakthechains’. Thank you for your concern. We have the CO this week and I raised a serious issue with the elder I spoke with on the weekend, an issue that our BOE hasn’t dealt with properly- it goes back to my time as an elder. I tried at the time to get some action, but was met with ambivalence and procrastination. It will be interesting to see if the CO pokes his nose into this, as this is sure to be discussed at his meeting with the BOE.
    As for the meeting today, I was ‘wired up’, but nothing happened. Regards, Jimmy

  58. Frank says:

    Hi JimmyG. It may be, of course, that the meeting you had with the ‘concerned elder’ may have been arranged to coincide with the circuit overseer’s visit. Do you think your own case may be discussed?

    Frank 2

  59. JimmyG says:

    Yes Frank, I have no doubt it will. Also having an elder visit me makes it look like the elder body is doing its job and ‘tending to the sheep’.

    What the CO sees is a report card of a former elder who has reduced his hours in ‘service’ dramatically. The CO will be told that I don’t comment anymore, taken myself off the school and seem ‘different’. Then throw in all the rumours on the ‘grapevine’. The CO will ask something like this: “What are you brothers doing to help this discouraged brother?” The answer: “Brother such and such conducted a shepherding call on him” (then add a few other meaningless comments to make it look like it has been an ongoing process). In reality that elder’s visit was the first serious communication with me since I stepped down in Feb 2011. As I’ve said before, the elder who is ‘scared’ of me has barely uttered a word to me in that time.

    An even more sinister scenario, if the gossip is discussed, he may insist on an investigation into possible apostasy on my part.

  60. Frank says:

    The one thing that becomes the natural predator of revealed truth is intelligence; the one thing we asked to leave at the door when visiting a church or kingdom hall. Being asked to replace our intelligence with faith is what becomes the roar of organised religion’s motor.

    What you describe above, JimmyG, is typical of the superficiality of organised religion. Anything that threatens the status quo and the power-base that exists will be met with resistance (‘resistance is futile’ – the Borg).

    As the building of myths from gossip is parsimoniously the object in view, expect the worst and be ready for a besieging of the castle.

    What passes as Christian ‘love’ is getting thinner and thinner.

    Good luck,

    Frank 2

  61. skyrainbow says:

    BreaktheChains, your hope Jehovah’s organisation is on the verge of collapsing is in vain. You forget Jehovah himself is blessing his people. Last service year we had a 2% increase worldwide.
    You say “I can’t wait till my children and I can be FINALLY FREE”
    “None are more hopelessly enslaved then those who falsely believe they are free” – Johan Wolfgang von Goethe.

  62. Frank says:

    Skyrainbow, then is that blessing also be blessing the Mormons, McDonalds and itunes?

    The point you make was actually one of the suspicions I had. Why is 2% anything to rave about? 7,000,000? Maybe you should check other successful entities. It’s not a numbers game.

    And actually I agree with Goethe, but for the opposite reason you do. Remember, as you point one finger at someone else, three are pointing back at you.

    Any other truth you wish to raise?

    You might try an original thought next time, not propaganda.


  63. Frank says:

    Re-drafted for Sky’s benefit.

    Skyrainbow, then is that blessing also on the Mormons, McDonalds and itunes?

    The point you make was actually one of the suspicions I had that made me initially think about my position. Why is 2% anything to rave about? 7,000,000 adherents? Maybe you should check other successful entities. It’s not a numbers game, my dear.

    And actually I agree with Goethe, but for the opposite reason you do. Remember, as you point one finger at someone else, three are pointing back at you.

    Oh, and Johann has two ns.

    Any other truth you wish to raise?

    You might try an original thought next time, not propaganda.


  64. Ruth says:

    May the Son of God the Lord Jesus Christ bless you. But please do not feel sorry for us. We are so greatful to have found real spirit and truth in Jesus as the only head of the congregation.

    His sheep are being pulled from all man made religions this very day.
    They are calling on God to open there eyes to real truth. In the book of John Jesus said, the true worshipers will worship in spirit and truth. Not religions.
    Jesus told the woman at the well when she asked him why the Jews insist that Jerusalam is the place to wirship as we Samaritans claim it is Mount Gerizim we are to worship.

    Jesus replied, the time is coming when neither on this mountain or in Jerusalem where will we worship.

    So Dear Skyrainbow. Thats why God takes us from any man made religions. Especially Jehovahs witnessess.

    You mentioned a 2% increase. Did they tell you what the decrease is? You will be shocked how many are being called out to true peace and true love of the Living God.
    May he open your eyes to see all the man made lies they have over the years told all of us.
    Peace be with you.
    Sis Csaba

  65. skyrainbow says:

    Ruth, I have no doubt that you are sincere but I am convinced you are deceived by persons who do not love Jehovah anymore.
    You find excellent councel in Proverbs 3:5-7: “Trust in Jehovah with all your heart and DO NOT LEAN UPON YOUR OWN UNDERSTANDING. In all your ways take notice of him, and he himself will make your paths straight. DO NOT BECOME WISE IN YOUR OWN EYES”

    • Amos says:

      Ruth, I have no doubt that you are sincere but I am convinced you are deceived by persons who do not love Jehovah anymore.
      You find excellent councel in Proverbs 3:5-7: “Trust in Jehovah with all your heart and DO NOT LEAN UPON YOUR OWN UNDERSTANDING.In all your ways take notice of him, and he himself will make your paths straight.DO NOT BECOME WISE IN YOUR OWN EYES”

      Hello Skyrainbow,
      It’s very interesting that you have quoted the above scripture.
      Have you really given it much thought? Do you really understand what it means?
      I fully agree with the verse that you quoted, & this is one reason that I will NEVER attach myself to an organization again!

      Just think about it a little, & how this verse fits in with another extremely well known & used one by the WTS & most others.
      Rev.18:4; “I heard another voice from heaven, saying, “Come out of her, my people, so that you will not participate in her sins and receive of her plagues;”

      SO as I see it, whilever one is within ANY part of “Babylon” which includes the WTS, they just may share in “her” judgement at our Lord’s return.

  66. skyrainbow says:

    Frank I mentioned the 2% increase last service year only, because you guys are talking about ‘the meltdown, implosion, collapsing’ of Jehovah’s Witnesses. I proved only this speculation is wishful thinking.

    Frank, I must admit, for the first time, you were right. Johann has two ns. Sorry.

  67. BreaktheChains says:

    Skyrainbow- If increase in ones religion is an indication of Jehovah’s blessing then I guess the Wiccan people must REALLY have JEHOVAH’S BLESSING. The American Religious Identification Survey gives Wicca an average annual growth of 143% for the period of 1990-2001. According to the Statesman Anne Elizabeth Wynn claims, “The two most recent American Religious Identification Surveys declare Wicca, one form of paganism, as the FASTEST growing spiritual identification in America.”[Wikipedia].


    You don’t have a right to judge me. You don’t know my circumstances. I LOVE Jehovah and his son Jesus Christ and I will spend the rest of my life following the teachings of Christ. JESUS is the WAY and the TRUTH and the LIFE, NOT AN ORGANIZATION[John 14:6].

    What I don’t understand is why are you even on this website? Do you not follow the rules and regulations of YOUR Governing Body? I wonder how they’d feel if they knew you have been visiting these sites. Do you not read the watchtower articles that FORBID you from even browsing sites like this? Not only are you browsing but you are also commenting and having conversations with ones you have been told to not even say a “hello” to. Do you not follow the direction of “THE GOVERNING BODY?”

    I hope that one day you will find TRUE Christian FREEDOM.

    Warm Christian Love,

  68. JimmyG says:

    To breakthechains. Don’t waste your time with skyrainbow. I and many others have already had this conversation with skyrainbow. Have a look at jw under the GB article. There I quote the May 15, 2012 WT, where it warns against what you have just said in your last comment. skyrainbow chose not to respond to that quote for obvious reasons.

    Regards and hope you are well. Jimmy

  69. BreaktheChains says:

    Thanks JimmyG. I get extremely offended when “devout Jehovah Witnesses” come on sites like JWStruggle and then actually have the audacity to criticize our comments. So many of us have come to sites like JWStruggle to find comfort and to upbuild eachother. So many of us on these sites have been hurt and damaged by the Watchtower Society. We come here looking for a SAFE place to share our feelings and “true life testimonies”. The LAST thing we should have to be subjected to is more “Watchtower Propaganda and Judgement”.

    Take care.

  70. skyrainbow says:

    BreaktheChains, I know, increase is only one of the indications of Jehovah’s blessing. I mentioned it it because you stated JW are ‘on the verge of collapsing’. You posted also ‘The organisation is a cold, cruel, cut throut secret society of corrupted men’ Who is judging here?
    Jimmy, why are you so frightened for my postings?

    • Frank says:

      Thanks JimmyG. I get extremely offended when “devout Jehovah Witnesses” come on sites like JWStruggle and then actually have the audacity to criticize our comments. So many of us have come to sites like JWStruggle to find comfort and to upbuild eachother.So many of us on these sites have been hurt and damaged by the Watchtower Society. We come here looking for a SAFE place to share our feelings and “true life testimonies”. The LAST thing we should have to be subjected to is more “Watchtower Propaganda and Judgement”.

      Take care.

      “Jimmy, as you are sitting in the Kingdom Hall or talking with brothers and sisters don’t you feel a litle bit a hypocrite? Frank calls your attidude ‘truly love’. Romans 12:9 says: ‘Let your love be without hypocrisy’” It was my last posting. I was banned.

      Interesting you should use the word ‘hypocrite’ here, Skyrainbow! “Oh, to see ourselves as other people see us”!

      Frank 2


  71. skyrainbow says:

    Warning JimmyG
    For a while Jimmy is saying he is still active in the organisation (in stealth mode) but is renouncing that same organisation. In one of his last postings he told he was at the assembly day and ‘listening to it made me feel like puking’ Because I feel such a attidude is not honest towards his wife and children and brothers and sisters I reacted: “Jimmy, as you are sitting in the Kingdom Hall or talking with brothers and sisters don’t you feel a litle bit a hypocrite? Frank calls your attidude ‘truly love’. Romans 12:9 says: ‘Let your love be without hypocrisy'” It was my last posting. I was banned.

  72. skyrainbow says:

    Cedars, the champion of Freedom of Thougt and Expression, the man who finds ‘disfellowshipping’ reprehensible, banned me from his website with te fallacy that I was name calling. He did not ban the poster who called my postings trash, who compared me with Pavlov’s dog and was wondering if I need to see a psychiatrist. But Cedars has banned me from the website because he was afraid I was going to reveal the REAL reason why he left Jehovah’s people. And now I will do it at the proper time. Here on this or an other site.

  73. skyrainbow says:

    I can imagine Cedars will exert pressure on the moderaters of JWstruggle to ban me here too. So, if you don’t see my postings anymore you know why.
    But I will assure everyone, I don’t hate brothers and sisters who, for one or other reason, have left JW. I feel sorry for them. But I hate the new goal in life of SOME, bashing the GB, COs and Elders. I hate their ungratefulness. They forgot how much they know thanks to the devote brothers of the FDS. Even now they are using their sites and publications. With my postings I am trying to help sincere persons realize in what for dangerous situation they are for the moment in the hope they will return to our loving father Jehovah.

  74. JimmyG says:

    skyrainbow: I am not ‘frightened of your postings’. I don’t want to get into a meaningless argument with you. My wife and children know about my position, so there is no deceit there. As for being in ‘stealth mode’, I am only doing what thousands of other JWs are and have had to do for years, to leave the org without losing those closest to them- their families. This unfortunate action is required because of the WT’s cruel and unbiblical enforcement of the shunning policy. As I’ve said before, I would much rather leave openly, without repercussions as is the case with the majority of other religions.

  75. BreaktheChains says:

    Skyrainbow- I DO NOT HATE any of my brothers or sisters. I DO NOT HATE COs, Elders, MS, pioneers etc.etc.etc. I DO HOWEVER HATE THE CRIMINAL, HYPOCRITICAL, CORRUPT BEHAVIOUR OF YOUR GOVERNING BODY. The bible says that power corrupts and that we should NEVER follow man[Jer.10:23]. I choose to follow Christ NOT an organization.

    • Amos says:

      Skyrainbow- I DO NOT HATE any of my brothers or sisters. I DO NOT HATE COs, Elders, MS, pioneers etc.etc.etc. I DO HOWEVER HATE THE CRIMINAL, HYPOCRITICAL, CORRUPT BEHAVIOUR OF YOUR GOVERNING BODY. The bible says that power corrupts and that we should NEVER follow man[Jer.10:23].I choose to follow Christ NOT an organization.

      AMEN & AMEN!!!

      If Sky ever finds out the truth about the absolute corruption & hypocracy behind the GB, it would be interesting to then hear their comments. Would they still be loyal to this group of evil men? I call it, “The blind leading the blind!”.

  76. BreaktheChains says:

    See Danmera’s youtube video entitled “Action speak louder than words. Jehovah Witnesses vs. False Religion” [by Danmera].
    Maybe after viewing this video you’ll understand why your Governing Body disgusts me.

  77. skyrainbow says:

    BreaktheChains, calm down.
    The following are six quick ways to regain your calm. If helps,ask Frank.
    1. Take a walk
    2. Take a breath
    3. Try progressive muscle relaxation
    4. Take a mental break
    5. Reframe your situation (very important)
    6. Ask Jehovah to help you to stay calm (the most important)
    “The fruitage of the spirit is love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faith, mildness, selfcontrol”
    Galatians 5:22,23

  78. BreaktheChains says:

    Skyrainbow- Thanks for the tip. I’ll try those techniques tonight before I pray for you.

  79. Frank says:

    Frank here, Breakthechains. This is what Skyrainbow thinks passes for an argument. But, Sky, you make your point. Now, my dear, tell us all here how your reaction to what is written here on this blog has come about because of your observance of the fruitages of the spirit.

    Perhaps we could all learn from you.

    I would like to know, too, whether you consider us your enemies seeing as you choose to spend so much time in this camp.

    How would you answer that?

    Frank 2

  80. whateverhappenedtome says:

    the showing of fruitage of spirit is not unique among jws…in fact there are many other people in many other religions who display such traits in a more genuine way because they do not just show it in order to attract people to come to their religion…
    and speaking of devout elders,cos governing body and fds yes their efforts are commendable…just like how other church members should also commend their pastors and priests and ministers because they too believe they are doing the work of the Lord…

    so the real issue here is not about traits and values,love and devotion but it is about the doctrines and teachings and whether it is still in line with what’s in the bible….because isn’t that the reason why jws go door to door, even to the households of kind and honest people, those people who are living a righteous path but since they do not know the ‘truth’ jws would knock on their doors to share the ‘truth’

    so if you really want to help the strugglers here, why not ask them what made them realize the truth about the truth, and if you are spiritually qualified according to the orgs standards, readjust them and correct their way of thinking using the word of God…..we would appreciate if we can read something really meaty, not necessarily a debate, but at least a rebuttal to all the points that made these ‘apostates’ as ‘apostates – by the org’s definition?

    Please enlighten us then.

  81. Ruth says:

    l appreciated your approach whateverhappenedto me.

    quote to Skyrainbow
    if you really want to help the strugglers here, why not ask them what made them realize the truth about the truth, and if you are spiritually qualified according to the orgs standards, readjust them and correct their way of thinking using the word of God…..we would appreciate if we can read something really meaty, not necessarily a debate, but at least a rebuttal to all the points that made these ‘apostates’ as ‘apostates – by the org’s definition?

    Yes i see that a true lover of God would do this if they were indeed his child.

  82. whateverhappenedtome says:

    i can only speak for myself and not for others so if you have the time skyrainbow i’d like you to enlighten men about the following:

    1. real story and it just happened recently, i will not mention the exact name of the congregation or country unless you send me a private email or if you really want i can post it here too.

    a jw sister was raped by a jw brother, im not sure about their ages, but it seems like they are both on their early 20s but sure the brother is older. when the elders found out about it, they disfellowshipped the brother, but requested the sister and her family to SIGN A WAIVer or some kind of agreement that they will not report the incident to the authorities….

    Why is that? i understand about Paul’s admonition that we don’t take our brothers to court and sue them but WHY do we sue those who are not jws for simple swindling case? are they not our brothers too since they too are our neighbors?

    2. we do not vote or salute the flag, but we do brag we follow Cesar’s law. but why do we not follow this simple task of a responsible citizen to report criminal acts to the authorities which are placed by God himself on their relative position?

    3. about the society’s explanation regarding their years of relationship with the UN, is actually understandable if they only need the library card to help with them getting facts and info…so what about those jw students who are required to join UN celebration programs as part of their school curriculum. some teachers will at least ask them to participate even in the most discreet way like perhaps decorating the stage or making school projects like making a flag. why is it such a big deal? why should a young jw face such unnecessary pressure in school when it’s just a requirement and pretty convenient to do for them to pass the subject or earn points from the teacher.

    4. about 607bc as the fall of babylon. it can be an accepted teaching, but should we push it as a fact when secular history and archaeology says otherwise?

    5. the governing body in the first century. was there really? and even if we choose to believe that there is, should we really be dogmatic about it when there is no concrete biblical proof that this set of man really existed that time. and if there are then kindly enlighten me.

    6. 1914 as Christ’s invisible presence and return and enthronement. this is obviously just an estimation based on the real life world events that happened that time but no one really knows the return of Christ so again why do we teach this as if it is a sure fact? I can probably be content with us just saying that the world war 1 is a significant sign of Christ’s presence but to really plot the year as if we are really sure — and by the way, not to mention how Russell came up with that year anyway, and how it used to be 1915 or what have you…

    7.about disfellowshipping- I understand that anyone who committed sin must be corrected and disciplined and then if repentant must be forgiven.. now in terms of forgiving those who have sinned and violated serious principles in the bible, it is God who should do the forgiving and as humans each individual has a different timeframe of when they can already accept and forgive their brother who sinned. how do we know that God already forgave the sinner yet we humans still refuse to talk or even say hello to them? And what about those who already quit practicing the sin they’ve been disfellowshipped for but are not yet reinstated? Why is it such a requirement that all members of the org,including families all together forgive the person at the same time? Like for example, when a husband commits adultery, His wife may not be able to forgive him for a long time, but maybe his friends can get over it sooner and can forgive him sooner, should these friends ignore him/ shun him even though in their hearts they have already forgiven him and have rest the case in the hands of the One who gives true forgiveness? should the wife get mad at his friends because his friends can forgive him sooner than she can?

    8. why is it so hard for us to admit that we are just another religion? with some falsehood being taught and some truth too. that way, it would be easier for people to stay and live with it. just like the Catholics, their priests never claim to be the only channel, or speaking for God. I have met some priests, pastors,preachers who honestly admit that being a priest is a paid profession and they are not leading people to do bad things but to do good things. the issue of whether it is the truth or the only truth depends on each individual’s spiritual calling.

    9. where in the bible does it say that there are christians who cannot partake the emblems at the memorial, where in the bible did we base that kind of teaching? was there a record of early christians who did not eat and drink the emblems during the memorial? regardless of whether a person has a heavenly hope of earthly hope (which is yet another topic worthy of discussion,since the bible only talks about one hope) didn’t Jesus specifically mentioned that WHOEVER drinks eats my flesh and drinks my blood (which is symbolized by the emblems) will have eternal life (john6:54)

    i have other points still. i am not being arrogant for questioning the points i made above. but consider me a lost drachma only trying to find the light that would satisfy my hungry soul.

  83. whateverhappenedtome says:

    Hi ruth, i just hit submit for the longer post i typed. i listed 9 points i can think of right now that made me reconsider what i believe. but it just disappeared. is their a limit of characters when you post here? but i didn’t also see a message that said ”post too long” of that sort.

    so anyway, there are so many just like me who never had bad experience with the org. i for myself cannot remember of a bitter memory growing up as a witness. i grew up in a family of fulltime ministers and i’ve seen them all genuinely gave up school and devoted lives in the fulltime ministry. in fact i cannot really complain how my parents raised me , and knowing the basic moral principles of the bible has taught me a lot in surviving my youth and my single life now.

    but just like any other person in any religion who grew up in a nice family, there is this thirsting for the word of God, and then the need to test the inspired expressions becomes so strong that there is no other way but to face it.
    i am not an arrogant person or a know it all trying to question a religion or leaders that have been there even before i was born, but i do admit i am the 100th sheep, hopefully still a sheep, looking for the real voice of my shepherd.

  84. BreaktheChains says:

    Whateverhappenedtome and all other friends- I like the 9 points you made. I referred Skyrainbow to a youtube video called, “Action speak louder than words. Jehovah Witnesses vs False Religion.”- By Danmera. The reason why I wanted Sky to view it is because I felt that it touched on ALL of the MAIN points that stumbled me out of the “truth”.

    The reason why I am so deeply hurt by finding out the truth about the truth is because I have a different background and experience from many of you. I feel that the ones that were raised in “the truth” are not aware of what the rest of us have gone through. I was 18 years old and going through a difficult time in my life when I was found by the Jehovah’s Witnesses. A reg. pioneer named Kelly started studying with me. I was raised as a Catholic. Right from the start Kelly began to tear down my beliefs. She said that the Catholic Church is Corrupt and UNCLEAN in the eyes of Jehovah. I was always a God fearing girl. I was terrified of the fact that I could even possibly be involved with anything that Jehovah would view as corrupt or unclean. I was HORRIFIED! I said to Kelly please explain to me why you say I am involved in a religion that Jehovah views as detestable. Well, she went on to say that the Catholic Church is a FALSE RELIGION and unclean to Jehovah because:

    1. They’ve had financial scandals. They have Billions of dollars in assets and don’t disclose to their members where all the money goes. They’re ALWAYS asking for money.

    2. They’ve had political scandals. They get involved in politics and don’t tell their members about it. A TRUE RELIGION would NEVER get involved with politics.

    3. They Baptize babies and YOUTH. [Kelly lied to me on MANY occasions leading up to my own baptism. She told me that jehovah witnesses NEVER baptize children.]

    4. They’ve had numerous pedophilia scandals.

    5. Their origin is based on pagan teachings. If the root of the tree is unclean then the entire tree is unclean and MUST be cut down.
    6. Their teachings are NOT biblical.

    Well as you can imagine I was very upset to learn all these things and so I did whatever Kelly told me to do because I didn’t want to make Jehovah angry. Little did I know that the Jehovah witness organization that I went running too was GUILTY of committing these exact same things.

    There is one BIG difference between the Catholic Church and the Jehovah Witness Religion. When Kelly told me that I had to write a letter of disassociation to my church so that I can get baptized as a JW I did exactly as she directed me to do. When I handed my letter into Father Madagan he looked so sad. This is a man that knew me all of my life. He said something to me that I NEVER forgot. He said, “If you ever want to come back to our congregation we’ll take you back with OPEN ARMS, no questions asked.”

    I was NEVER shunned by my church or my family during all these past 20 years I’ve been a Jehovah Witness. When I leave the Jehovah Witness religion are they going to treat me with the same LOVE that the Catholic Church and my own family showed me?
    Which one of these shows greater “christian love” to their members and family?

    Sincerely seeking truth,

  85. BreaktheChains says:

    Hi Ruth.

  86. Frank says:

    Whateverhappentome: “3. about the society’s explanation regarding their years of relationship with the UN, is actually understandable if they only need the library card to help with them getting facts and info…”

    Actually, this too was unethical. Even if this weak reasoning could be believed against the documented evidence out in cyberland, is it moral and ethical to use the UN’s library to write articles that badmouth that organisation? This would be like using the Reichstag’s library to badmouth Hitler!

  87. BreaktheChains says:

    To all friends-I have to clarify something about the last comment I posted. I’m NOT saying that those that have been raised in the “truth” have an easier time adjusting when they finally find out “ttatt” from those that converted later. I’m just saying that obviously both sets of people go through a different grieving process. Their journey out of the Organization can be very different in many ways and yet similar in others.

  88. Ruth says:

    Dear whateverhappenedto me
    hopefully still a sheep, looking for the real voice of my shepherd.

    You are indeed looking towards our real Shephard The Lord Jesus Christ. John 14:6 says he is the way the truth and the life. “No one can go to the Father except through me.

    Yes! he is the truth. Not any Organisation. My dear, he alone is leading you into his loving arms.
    Welcome home.

    Lots loveChristian Love Ruth

  89. skyrainbow says:

    Frank, you are asking ‘I would like to know whether you consider us your enemies’ My answer is NO! I even don’t hate apostates.
    The only person I hate is Satan because he is “misleading the entire inhabited earth” (Revelation 12:9), including many posters on these sites who do not realize they fell in “the trap of the birdcatcher” Psalms 91:3.

    • Anonymous says:

      Frank, you are asking ‘I would like to know whether you consider us your enemies’My answer is NO!I even don’t hate apostates.
      The only person I hate is Satan because he is “misleading the entire inhabited earth” (Revelation 12:9), including many posters on these sites who do not realize they fell in “the trap of the birdcatcher” Psalms 91:3.

      I think that you’ve unlocked an important door, Skyrainbow.
      You used the designation “APOSTATE”, please tell us your definition of what makes a person an “APOSTATE”?


  90. skyrainbow says:

    Amos, I did not unlock an important door by using the deignation ‘apostate’. You find the word apostate(s) 22 times in the Holy Scriptures. Look it up.
    I don’t say, you are an apostate. I only say to you: “Search for what is good, and not what is bad…so you may keep living” Amos 5:14.

    • Amos says:

      Amos, I did not unlock an important door by using the deignation ‘apostate’. You find the word apostate(s) 22 times in the Holy Scriptures.Look it up.
      I don’t say, you are an apostate.I only say to you: “Search for what is good, and not what is bad…so you may keep living” Amos 5:14.


      Skyrainbow, I only asked you to give your definition of who or what is an “APOSTATE”. This should be an easy question for you to answer. I am not asking you to name who you consider to be one, but “What constitutes an APOSTATE?” This is not a difficult question to answer.
      I am well qualified to do my own bible research & this has nothing at all to do with the question that I asked you!!!
      As you used this word, it is your opinion that I’m interested in.

  91. David2332 says:

    Hello everyone,
    JJ I left a comment on one of your videos on YouTube. In which I mentioned about becoming a publisher at the age of 14 and then I stopped attending meetings at age 19 I’d say. So about 11 years later I came back and went over the ?’s to become a publisher again which is mainly just Bible reading. I am not baptized, so what should I do about being baptized? And who or where should I get baptized?


  92. Ruth says:

    Sorry Breakthechains l did not see this untill to day!

    Quote: Breakthechains. says:
    December 5, 2012 at 9:02 am
    Hi Ruth.

    Hi! Thanks for that personal touch. “That little bit of Kindness makes me happy”
    Im csaba on the forum, and Ruth here. Dont really know how that happened, but it did.

    Ruth is someone l aspire to. Csaba was my beautiful Alsation dog who died and who l loved so much.
    Bye Have a good day.

  93. skyrainbow says:

    JJ speaks about ‘the lies of the WT’
    There are many who attack Jehovah’s Witnesses. Some are ministers of churches who have seen members of their flocks leave to become Witnesses and some are ex-Witnesses who were disfellowshipped for grossly dishonest or immoral conduct. Stubbornly refusing to accept correction their only defense is to retaliate with apostate lies and slander.

  94. skyrainbow says:

    Disgruntled former JW never divulge to those whom their hate mongering is intended to influence just why it was that they were excommunicated. Telling the truth on just this point alone might prove helpful to those who read their comments but being helpful is no part of their motives. Instead of accepting correction they give in to the injured pride that can result from being unmasked and not getting to have it their way. They allow their personal chagrin to fester until vexation leads them into open declarations of animosity, spewing forth all consuming tirades with such vehemence that no longer have any capacity left for telling the truth. As a result, readers who relish hate filled criticism eagerly believe apostate lies and become their latest victims, while those interested in knowing the truth look for factual evidence and are not taken in by falsely contrived stories.

    • Amos says:

      Disgruntled former JW never divulge to those whom their hate mongering is intended to influence just why it was that they were excommunicated.Telling the truth on just this point alone might prove helpful to those who read their comments but being helpful is no part of their motives.Instead of accepting correction they give in to the injured pride that can result from being unmasked and not getting to have it their way.They allow their personal chagrin to fester until vexation leads them into open declarations of animosity, spewing forth all consuming tirades with such vehemence that no longer have any capacity left for telling the truth.As a result, readers who relish hate filled criticism eagerly believe apostate lies and become their latest victims, while those interested in knowing the truth look for factual evidence and are not taken in by falsely contrived stories.

      You continue to use the word “APOSTATE”, yet refuse to give us YOUR understanding of what an apostate really is.

      Just look at these last two posts of yours…..aren’t you doing what you are accusing “APOSTATES” of doing????

  95. skyrainbow says:

    Amos, normally I don’t discuss with persons who are calling Jesus’ brothers, criminal, hypocritical, corrupt and a group of evil man. But I will answer your question for this once.
    Apostasy is the formal disaffiliation from or abandonment of the true worship of Jehovah and NEXT, CRITICISE, LYING, SLANDERING AND ATTACKING FORMER BROTHERS.

  96. Ruth says:

    Quote Amos.
    If Sky ever finds out the truth about the absolute corruption & hypocrisy behind the GB, it would be interesting to then hear their comments. Would they still be loyal to this group of evil men? I call it, “The blind leading the blind!”———————-

    You will not like what I’m about to say.
    Amos is telling the truth about these men. They are not from God nor did they ever behave like Jesus in a humble way. They shut up the heavens from the true sheep. They think by there many chopping and changing of doctrines they have the legal right to change scriptures.

    l ate dinner with one in particular who l will never forget. They way he treated his wife was seriously bad. There certainly was no Holy Spirit, but rescinding from that man was a a shocking bad attitude.

    Many of them who fly around the world get 1st class treatment. Christ never asked for special diets or 1st class treatment.
    Plus they get money put in there hands all the time. “Not the servants though. Not the little sheep that needs help. Not the hard workers.

    Actually Jesus had to walk everywhere just as a fine example. Yet some out in pioneer assignments had it hard? If you compare with 1st century Christians they all shared everything. Work load everything.

    These GB men Lord it over the sheep. They are held as Gods. “Yes Gods! Who deserve no special attention. ” Unless they repent from there ways and turn to Christ as the true and only way. John 14:6.They will have no life in themselves.

    I’m not saying l have not met special beautiful people because l have. l will never forget a circuit overseer called Bro Brown.
    l will never forget his kindness. “He l believed had Gods spirit in him. l know some are truly men of God who have been simply blinded by man. “But Christ will bring them out!! Where does he take them? To himself. He puts them in his pasture to nurture and love them. Teach them. No buildings. No Kingdom halls. He comes into there hearts and watches them grow in love. 1John 4:4

    l can see you really want to straighten things out. In fact, your doing the opposite! l can see your heart and your trying to fight for Jehovah’s word because you love him so much. But please l ask you to step back. Ask why are we all resigning and leaving? Could there be a chance your wrong about some of us here. and on the forum out back? Is there also a chance you are wrong about that organisation?
    Many have been truly wronged by elders who were predigest against a certain imdividuals. Some have made mistakes. But since leaving that organisation have repented and meant it.

    Plus Sky, JJ lets us all cast our views here! Can we do that in the w/tower? Goodness we are programmed to believe every word that is written. We are not allowed to find out for our selves.

    I certainly don’t believe in all that said here. But l do see our Father does not program us. He helps us a step at a time to see his point of view as we read what others have to say by comparing it with scripture..
    Amos does not hate his x brothers and sisters. Nor does anyone else here. But one thing we all hate is the great deceiver who works hard at coning people to join his false religions.

  97. Frank says:

    Hi Skyrainbow. Still lapping up the undue attention you’re receiving? Okay, well, I want you to tell me if this ‘doctrine’ is a departure into apostasy (Watchtower version: “Teaching and spreading beliefs other than that of accepted by Jehovah’s Witnesses.”)

    607 BCE to 1914 CE = 2520 modern solar years (Gregorian).

    7 Times (Gentile Times)

    607 BCE to 1878 CE = 2520 Bible “prophetic” years as laid down in all Watchtower Bible and Tract Society publications to date.

    Difference between first sum: 36.2 Modern solar years.

    How does this slip by our well-conditioned minds? Some it doesn’t.

    Tell me, Skyrainbow, why this obvious truth doesn’t show that the prescribed year of 1914 AD (CE) is not mythologised.

    Go on, Skyrainbow, tempt us with an actual argument.

    For those more awake among us, you may wish to dwell on the implications.


  98. Frank says:

    Obviously here, Skyrainbow, I’m saying that the End of the Gentile Times (“The appointed times of the nations”) came in Solar year 1878 CE.

    If I am using ONLY Biblical principles (Revelation: 3.5 “times” = 1260 days x 2 = 2520 days divided by 7 equals 360-day “lunar” “prophetic” years)in what way am I apostatising from the Bible?

    Don’t forget, too, that though the WTS doesn’t remind us of this, I am still applying THEIR equation correctly, but with a different answer.

    Don’t rush, have a think about it.

    If you think I’m wrong, try something other than calling me names.


  99. Ruth says:

    Hi Breakthechains.
    After reading what you said in the w/tower study about the article keeping the family to gether even if there violence in the home was so enlightening.
    lm compelled to say what a brave woman you are to stand up for truth verbally giving them a mouth full.
    How could they print such an article? How do they get away with telling woman or children who are beaten to stay with there husbands is beyond belief.
    Please my Dear. You are one loving woman to stand before a crowd and bring truth out.Very Gutsy
    l actually love brave people. l feel safe when people do not pass the buck. Or tickle ears so to speak.

    Your not crazy! That’s what cults want people to think. That’s just how they program people. Also when we find lies in the Watchtower, the ones who loved us inside suddenly hate what is bad when we speak up for standing against the invisible scary
    underhanded satanic way of twisting real truth.
    “Don’t worry your not alone”

    Hi Frank.
    l would like to say what you said was so true as well!
    Like the Catholic Inquisition, a fear of religious authority, some were all too happy to implicate others to avoid punishment themselves. Fingering others is exactly what is encouraged under the present religious regime of this organisation.

    l have noticed the programming over the years of some people still takes hold after leaving the organisation. l have seen 1st hand how people have done wrong yet continue to blame others trying to avoid looking deep inside ones self. Now l understand why these people behave as they do. Looks to me now its been a slow process of cult participation in mind control without people even realising this. The effects pass through there lives even after they leave. lf they do not recognise what its doing to relationships, then things will never change.

    The Watchtowers programming ruins so many people. Even to this day our children still suffer even though they are grown men and woman. Unable to cope with good relationships. Still having the mind of the cult that indoctrinated them.
    The difference is, when understanding people do enter there lives they are highly suspicious of every move.
    Oh! the web we weave.

    Hope this makes a little sense Frank.

    Ps. Im trying to show love as Jesus said even to my enemies. Not trying to tickle ears.

    • Frank says:

      Yes, Ruth, indoctrination digs deep, potentially impenetrably . Even though I haven’t attended meetings for years, somehow I can’t put this major part of my life behind me. Actually, if truth is told (that’s’ genuine truth), it’s a ‘guilty pleasure’ watching ones like Skyrainbow expose their own shallowness. I like the games, don’t you? She seems so willing!

      Things look quite different from the view in the rowing boat so far away from ‘shore.’ I wonder if Sky will be able to answer my question about the End of the Gentile Times? 1914 CE simply cannot be reconciled with Scripture (even by the WTS’s own arguments). While I remain open-minded, it’s things like this that get me excited.


  100. skyrainbow says:

    Frank, I am not calling you names! I know a poster on these sites of desperation who called my postings trash, who compared me with Pavlov’s dog and who was wondering if I need to see a psychiatrist. His name was…Frank.

  101. skyrainbow says:

    Ruth, you are telling about a beautiful and kind circuit overseer, called Bro Brown.
    You are telling also about a GB man who treated his wife seriously bad with a shocking bad attitude. But now you don’t give the name. But I know him too. His first name was Raymond.

  102. Frank says:

    Yes, Skyrainbow, that was me. By COMPARING you (not calling you PAVLOV’S dog a name) I was trying to demonstrate that you do the bidding of your masters (actions prompted at the sound of a ‘bell’) rather than frame your OWN arguments. After all, God’s law should be written on your heart! I didn’t call you a ‘psychiatrist,’ I merely wondered at your determination to use names ONLY to ‘save’ your ‘apostate’ brothers and sisters! I feel that anyone who lacks the tact you do and expects so much perhaps needs professional help. Is this not reasonable? I’m just trying to be objective. It is odd too that, though JimmyG reminded you, you seem bent on coming on to ‘apostate’ sites and ‘reading us the riot act.’ This is an act contrary to the written instructions of the WT Governing Body!

    Anyway, that aside, have you decided to take up my challenge about the revelation above about the End of the Gentile Times? If you don’t feel up to it, just say so, Skyrainbow. We ‘apostates’ will understand.


  103. Frank says:

    Skyrainbow, if you are referring to the ex-Governing Body member Raymond Franz, you have been listening to lies. This is not unbelievable as some in the WT are quite capable telling them. To some, merely having different opinions is next to being possessed by the Devil. Read Ray’s autobiography, Crisis of Conscience, before you go off half-cocked about this courageous man!

    He stood up to bullying and a system that continues to bully to this day!


  104. Ruth says:

    Bye Sky.
    lm praying for you.
    Sister Ruth

  105. danielB says:

    “Chrystal Blue Persuasion” . Not many years after that song was popularized , another young man whom I considered to be a brother , told me that the lyrics to that song were written with “the truth” in mind ; that is , the truth according to Jehovah’s Witnesses . As many years passed , what Steve had said proved to me that this was only naive wishful thinking ; too good to be true .

    This proved that unfortunately the Devil does indeed transform himself into an angel of light . He is as a rainbow in the sky to the unweary .

    His false words can never be proven true in their intended importance . He will wage war until his death , and all will see his falseness .

    Let’s keep fighting the fine fight , brothers and sisters .

    Bro Dan

  106. JimmyG says:

    Skyrainbow- Are you referring to Ray Franz? If so, unless you have actual evidence to support your accusation, make a retraction. It’s easy to fling mud at a man who is not here to defend himself.

    Also your reference to Jesus’ so called “brothers”- this current group making up the GB and in the past, has APPOINTED ITSELF to this elite position. This current GB though is so haughty that it is has elevated itself to an even higher position- it thinks that it doesn’t just REPRESENT the F&DS, but it IS the F&DS!

    Just because the GB says something is true, it doesn’t mean it is. You make the mistake of just accepting anything the GB says at face value. It’s all too easy to have your thinking done for you. If you actually took the time to check the bible you’ll find that there’s no SPECIFIC biblical evidence to support this doctrinal nonsense, except for the gross distortion of one of the many of Jesus’ parables appearing in the Gospels.

  107. Ruth says:

    Frank says:
    December 27, 2012 at 12:42 am
    Yes, Ruth, indoctrination digs deep, potentially impenetrably . Even though I haven’t attended meetings for years, somehow I can’t put this major part of my life behind me. Actually, if truth is told (that’s’ genuine truth), it’s a ‘guilty pleasure’ watching ones like Skyrainbow expose their own shallowness. I like the games, don’t you? She seems so willing!—————–

    No l do not play games, nor do l get pleasure to hurt any ones feelings. Sky cannot see what we can as YET!
    l do believe if we have the True love out Father expects us to have, we will have tender mercy for all mankind. Its not the Fathers way to get joy out of someones Else’s pain. For her to be writing the way she does shows me that her love is genuine. Unfortunately the W/tower has done a good job.
    Well they did it to us once upon a time, Right?

    What Sky believes to her is genuine. Its how we handle the matter. Not making fun doing it. But having a deep respect. How can we fail if we show genuine love. “We cannot! Glat 5:22 makes it so plain to us. We if do not have the fruitages of the spirit then we do not belong to God.
    Love goodness kindness mildness self control ect!
    l do believe both you and Sky if you are both really genuine lovers of Yeshua and his Father will apply the golden rule.
    You both need to be kinder in your approach.
    l myself did fall into the same trap, but never again. Its hurtful and disgusting. “We do not have to worry about protecting the real sheep. Why? Because they listen to there masters voice in the end anyway.

    One more thing l have learnt on my journey over the past two years since l have been on struggle is we don’t have to argue scripture. We just have to show true love. We don’t have to make anyone look bad. We have to show true love. WE can put up our opinions here and else where.It is called freedom. But to make everyone else tow our line of thinking is not on.” Once we became born again Christians we realise the Holy Spirit does all that work. 1 John 4;4

    No Frank. Its not pleasure to play games, especially with a person who really like Paul thinks she is doing a favour to her God to exposes falseness.Yet l believe that God will open her eyes as he opened some of ours. l really do.” Just ignor her anger” Thats another avenue im pursuing.

    Of cause in the end, we will stand our ground! But with maturity. That’s the Fathers way.
    God bless you all. Bye Csaba

    • Frank says:

      Hi Ruth, you said: “No l do not play games, nor do l get pleasure to hurt any ones feelings. Sky cannot see what we can as YET!
      l do believe if we have the True love out Father expects us to have, we will have tender mercy for all mankind. Its not the Fathers way to get joy out of someones Else’s pain. For her to be writing the way she does shows me that her love is genuine. Unfortunately the W/tower has done a good job.
      Well they did it to us once upon a time, Right?”

      This is great! Surely as you seem to be in touch with how God feels, you’re the one to answer a question that stands as a barrier between me and God presently: If the God of the Old Testament was so in touch with his earthly creatures’ feelings, why was he so generous with ordering the death (through Moses and Joshua) of thousands of Canaanite (Jericho, for instance) children, babies and women?

      I am fully aware that God “takes no delight in the death of the wicked one,” so I’m sure you can explain how it is that babies, who have no understanding of goodness and wickedness, were targeted for execution, seeing that Christian values show that punishment requires sin? If you choose to say only that God has his reasons, I would be glad to have a discussion on Biblical morality.

      I feel no responsibility towards Skyrainbow. She emulates the system that has built her ‘new personality.’ She is the playground bully whose main motive is to feel better about herself by calling others names. Like most bullies, she can either grow up or remain as she is.

      Of course, she will think I’m calling her names, but at least I have explained WHY she is a bully. So far, Skyrainbow is yet to satisfy anyone why she thinks people on this site are ‘apostates’ merely because they hold beliefs different from hers.


  108. skyrainbow says:

    Jimmy, you say “it is easy to fling mud at a man who is not here to defend himself”. And what are you doing all the time? Indeed it is easy to fling mud at GB men who are not here to defend themselves.

    • Chris says:

      That is a bit of a weak retort. The gb have had ample opportunity to respond to the many hundreds of genuine letters requesting clarification of their involvement with the the UN, child abuse cover ups,pharisaical positions on blood components etc etc.
      And it has been said to you many times skyrainbow, “If you are such a conscientious and obedient witness to the faithful slave as You see them, and as they declare themselves to be, then why are you here skyrainbow”…..or should I say Satan?

    • Frank says:

      Skyrainbow, you know perfectly well why the GB aren’t here to defend themselves; they wouldn’t lower themselves to talk with the amaharets. JimmyG is functional in what he says. Unlike you, he gives reasons for his arguments – you do not. You simply feel ‘above’ such ‘lowly’ viewpoints.


  109. skyrainbow says:

    Frank, I will not read the autobiographie of that “courages man”. If you lived in the first century and Judas Iscariot had written his autobiographie would you read it?

    • Frank says:

      Skyrainbow, I presume you mean Ray Franz was a ‘courageous’ man – that he was. This perhaps is why you lack balance in your commentary; you are unwilling to read both sides of the story. Believe me, there ARE TWO SIDES! Ray backed his claims with documentation! Bet you didn’t know that! I guess you don’t read books on evolution too; more fool you!

      If your faith is as strong as you like to feel, why are you so afraid to read ‘the other side’?

      Actually, there is a Gospel of Judas Iscariot. The only reason I don’t read it is has been exposed as Gnostic and not canonical. But, who knows, maybe one day I’ll fit it in.

      Meanwhile, enjoy your blissful ignorance!


  110. skyrainbow says:

    Ruth, I am so sorry for you. I only can ask once again, as apostle Paul did in Galations 5:7: “You were running well. Who hindered you from keeping and obeying the truth” Tell us.

    • Amos says:

      Ruth, I am so sorry for you. I only can ask once again, as apostle Paul did in Galations 5:7: “You were running well. Who hindered you from keeping and obeying the truth” Tell us.

      Skyrainbow, Ruth is one of us who has been enlightened regarding the lies being taught by the WTS for many decades. Please be careful how you speak to God’s anointed ones.

      I feel so sorry for ones such as yourself who are still blinded by this “apostate organization”!

      I believe that ALL forms of organized religion have “apostasized” away from God’s written word, in varying degrees, & that organizations like the WTS are nothing better than cults, as they “bind in” their followers through fear!


  111. Frank says:

    What was the ‘truth’ the apostle Paul was talking about, Skyrainbow?

    Remember, truth is static and absolute.


  112. Frank says:

    What was the ‘truth’ the apostle Paul was talking about, Skyrainbow? Tell us.

    Remember, truth is static and absolute.


  113. skyrainbow says:

    Yes Frank, there are two sides! And I prefer to stay at Jehovah’s side and his loyal ones.

    • Amos says:

      Yes Frank, there are two sides!And I prefer to stay at Jehovah’s side and his loyal ones.

      Sorry Sky, it appears that you are being loyal to an organization rather than to Jehovah Himself. Please read your bible daily & pray for HIM to show you the “real truth” contained therein.

  114. skyrainbow says:

    Chris, I will explain once again why I am here.
    I am here because I am convinced you find here also sincere persons who are deceived by the lobby of apostates. I am trying to help them realize in what for dangerous situation they are for the moment. I am here to expose the lies and ‘counterfeit words’ of rancorous apostates (2 Peter 2:3) in the hope that sincere persons will return to our loving father Jehovah.

    • Amos says:

      Chris, I will explain once again why I am here.
      I am here because I am convinced you find here also sincere persons who are deceived by the lobby of apostates.I am trying to help them realize in what for dangerous situation they are for the moment.I am here to expose the lies and ‘counterfeit words’ of rancorous apostates (2 Peter 2:3) in the hope that sincere persons will return to our loving father Jehovah.

      I’m glad that you used that scripture from 2 Peter, Sky. I hope you realize that it applies to such ones as you are trying to defend…..the GB.

      • whateverhappenedtome says:

        sky, really? do the elders know u are coming here? or are u secretly doing this, thinking that u will never be affected by it? if u are here to expose the lies and counterfeit words of apostates, then please do so. tackle every topic one by one and give us, readers an option to believe in. there are sincere ones here looking for the truth, and not just one sided opinion from someone who is biased and would only like to defend an organization.
        you keep saying ‘return to Jah’ when actually that is just the code for saying ‘return to the organization and be in submission, have a good standing in the eyes of the elders, turn in monthly hour reports, help distribute educational,bible based publications, pioneer, etc etc…(which are actually good deeds, but just among the many other humanitarian things to do. charity works And shAring things about christ, living a christian way of life as cited in the bible…turning to scriptures for reading can equip someone to be a man of God( 2tim.3:16-17)…

        if u want to expose the apostates for their lies, then will u start doing it already? can u talk about 1919, 607, 1878, and why everytime the wts teaches something, they are so dogmatic like its an absolute truth, but changes it in a few years time anyway? now in my opinion, the people here are open to other possibilities and there is always an open discussion of bible topics, and so far i didn’t see anyone forcing their own interpretations on anyone, but readers like me will appreciate it because different views are presented and we can weigh things and make comparisons. just like a person trying to buy a new product, it will be wise for him to look at reviews from other users, even if the brand of such product is famous and highly recommended. all information must be made available even by the brand creator himself, its actually an obligation so as not to mislead buyers. and even if companies are misleading, it is the buyer’s responsibility to make sure he’s buying the right thing. or at least come up with a very good decision…

        if the organization is really holding the truth, then why bother with the ‘apostates”? you will not have to tell or demand anyone to ignore or not listen to apostates because the truth will come out with real evidences, who’s telling the truth and who’s lying. and those sincere ones can find it. God will lead them, and they will serve Him by heart because they’ve identified it through faith and proofs…not because some things are hidden from them, or because what they thought isn’t really what it is…

        it would be better if you just be frank and honest and say ‘go back to this organization and talk about the perks of being a part of it, like its a marketing strategy, than keep saying apostates are lying and slandering without giving answers to the real questions why this website got existed in the first place.

        skyrainbow, please if u are here to talk about fellowship, conduct and family values, there are a lot of other sources for that, so why don’t you answer Doctrinal issues and be an exciting participant in this apostate site that’s actually getting you hooked, because u keep coming back to this banned site?

  115. Frank says:

    Skyrainbow, you KEEP saying you are here to ‘expose the lies and “counterfeit words” of rancorous apostates.’ You are a whitewashed grave! You have done nothing of the the kind. You’re here to whinge, moan, complain, dominate, and insult!

    Have you done ANYTHING to ‘expose’ my 1878 ‘fraud’ yet (see above)? The WTBTS holds this errant teaching as ‘holy’ doctrine, yet it CANNOT be reconciled with the mathematical workings set forth (they say) in the Bible!

    But wait! You’re going to expose me!

    Cool, I’m listening.


  116. Freethinkerinjah says:

    Choose the tree that protects you from the hot sun.

  117. Frank says:

    Yes, Free, Of course Skyrainbow won’t answer questions, I’m just trying to show how hollow she is when it comes to anything substantive.

    It really would be better if she didn’t come here any more rather than cast negativity every time she visits.

    Ruth, any thoughts yet? I’m sure you surely will have answers for me seeing as you are so knowledgeable.

    Didn’t that scripture in Ezekiel also state that God would rather the ‘wicked’ repent than be destroyed? How then can babies and children have the chance to ‘repent’ when they have committed not sin?

    I don’t think telling us that ‘we are born in sin’ would help in these rationalistic days, either.

    Look forward to hearing from you.


  118. Frank says:

    It’s strange how I seem to draw a blank when I ask this and like questions. It’s almost like people’s silence indicates that I have committed a blasphemy merely by posing the question.

    This only tells me that it is controversial and that no one can give a satisfactory answer. Trying to reconcile love in these circumstances IS challenging and few Christians are willing to admit it.

    Thanks for your time, Ruth.

  119. skyrainbow says:

    Reading the comments of people like Frank and Amos makes me think of 2 Peter 2:21: “For it would have been better for them not to have accurately known the path of righteousness than after knowing it accurately to turn away from the holy commandment delivered to them”.

  120. Freethinkerinjah says:

    One day, in the day of Jehovah,s kingdom, we are all going to look at each other and bust out laughing, because we all thought we all were so right, and actually fought over who was right and who was wrong, and got distracted from the moment. But it’s all good, because when we remember such human drama, in the new day, we will know our resurrection is not a dream.

  121. Frank says:

    Skyrainbow, There is a joke about St. Peter showing ‘Mother’ Teresa around heaven. The nun asks: “That’s funny, what’s that huge brick wall over there?” St. Peter turns to her, laughs, and says, “That’s the Jehovah’s Witnesses. They think they’re the only ones here!”

    Come on, my love, do us a favour and explain why you think YOU’RE on the ‘path of righteousness”?

    Still drawing a blank on my simple arithmetical conundrum, Sky?

    Maybe one day you’ll open the corner of at least one eye.


  122. Frank says:

    See, here’s your problem, Skyrainbow; if you can’t justify the Scriptural relevance of 1914 CE (YOU need to do this as the WTS is making the extraordinary claim that the date is Biblically significant), why should anyone on this site (those you seem to want to shame into repentance) accept its significance?

    If you are here to trumpet your own righteousness by associating with this body, then from where does your authority come? If 1878 CE is correct, CT Russell wasn’t even due to publish the first Watchtower until the following year! Yet it is claimed that 4 years after 1914 authority was given a small band of faithful men. How could this have happened in 1878?

    I’m wrong? Cool. Show me how.



  123. BreaktheChains says:

    Hi Ruth. Thank you for your kind words. I haven’t been checking the postings for some time. I’m so happy to hear from you and for all the words of encouragement. I’ve been going through a difficult time lately. I’ve been feeling really down. You’ve been a nice loving sister to me exactly when I needed to be shown love. I won’t be commenting anymore or reading postings. I’m just going to take a little break. I know things will eventually get better for me but right now I am having a hard time. Please pray for me. I’m going to focus on reading my bible. I know Jehovah will show me the way. I just have to keep my chin up and try to stay positive. It’s sisters like you that know how to upbuild others and show true christian love. I wanted to say a little “hi” to you because you have really impressed me. I really mean what I’m saying. You have christian maturity that I can only hope to one day aspire too.

    Bye for now dear sister Ruth and all my friends at JW Struggle. I’ll come back when I am feeling better.

    Warm Christian Love,

  124. skyrainbow says:

    To all who are fighting Jehovah.
    Change your ways before it’s to late. The dark clouds of the great Tribulation and Armageddon is upon us. You are only hurting yourselves by fighting against Jehovah God for he says: “Vengeance is mine; I will repay” (Romans 12:19)

    • whateverhappenedtome says:

      skyrainbow..sorry dont get me wrong..but why is your statement always like this? ” to all who fight against Jehovah” …i think its more appealing and realistic if u say “to all who fight against the organization, we believe God is in favor with what we are doing”

      To claim that disagreeing WTS equates to fighting against Jehovah is just too much..because who are we to fight against The creator? please know that even thought of going against God already mKes me tremble in fear…may God rebuke me if ive done it at sum point..but really, i am just questioning the noble men that the bible also warned us about….

  125. Frank says:

    Skyrainbow, you obviously can’t demonstrate that you are actually supporting the True God and in this posting you exceed even yourself in pomposity.

    As you seem to be fond of quoting Scripture, I have one for you: 1 Peter 3:15: “But Sanctify the Christ as Lord in your hearts, ALWAYS READY TO MAKE A DEFENSE BEFORE EVERYONE that DEMANDS A REASON for the hope in you, but doing to together with a MILD TEMPER AND DEEP RESPECT.” (New World Translation)(Capitals added)

    Tell me, Skyrainbow, do you think your attitude is harmonious with ANY part of this scripture?

    I think you come here because you like to feel ‘persecuted.’ This makes you feel good. JimmyG has told you on another site that you are even breaking the law of those you so revere. The fact is, even they say you shouldn’t be here. And yet you keep coming back. Is it perhaps that if you actually witness to the ‘spiritually-dead’ you might finally realise you are numbered among us?


  126. skyrainbow says:

    BreaktheChains, I am sorry you are going through a difficult time. Maybe, because you lost the joy and happiness of the spiritual paradise of Jehovah’s people.
    It’s very wise not commenting anymore or reading postings on sites like this one. This is not upbuilding and makes someone feeling down. It’s wise you are going to focus on reading your bible. Ask Jehovah in prayer to show you the way, as David did in Psalm 25:4: “Make me know your own ways, O Jehovah; teach me your own paths” I am sure, Jehovah will give you comfort and help you to regain your faith, the truth, loving brothers and sisters, joy and hapinness and his approval.

    • Frank says:

      BreaktheChains, I am sorry you are going through a difficult time. Maybe, because you lost the joy and happiness of the spiritual paradise of Jehovah’s people.
      It’s very wise not commenting anymore or reading postings on sites like this one.This is not upbuilding and makes someone feeling down. It’s wise you are going to focus on reading your bible.Ask Jehovah in prayer to show you the way, as David did in Psalm 25:4: “Make me know your own ways, O Jehovah; teach me your own paths” I am sure, Jehovah will give you comfort and help you to regain your faith, the truth, loving brothers and sisters, joy and hapinness and his approval.

      You hypocrite, Skyrainbow!

      Actually, Sky, you’re not following the Party-line here. You should be exhorting Breakthechains not to read the Bible without the interpretation of the Watchtower’s own publications!

  127. Ruth says:

    Dearest breakthechains.
    Its so good your going to scriptures. Please contact me any time night or day for help or questions, or anything you may need help with. I wil continue to be your friend and support you. Im an older woman with lifes exsperiences and still learning.

    You are such a wonderful loving person breakthechains. “Christ has called you to be his child” We know the consequences of that. “We will carry his cross or torture stake. It will not be easy.

    Romans 8:14 For all that are being lead by the Spirit of God are the sons and daughters of God.
    Not being lead by religion@ organisations.

    But then again if we ask for help out Lord now lives in our hearts is all to happy to keep us safe in his abiding love. 1 John 4:4
    Sometimes when l feel so down l cover my head and go into prayer asking for his peace that he promises. Suddenly like a flash of light the peace covers my whole body. l end up going through the day peaceful. )Even when hell is breaking loose around me.
    l would love to show you what l have been learning by just reading scripture away from religions.

    please feel free to ask me bible questions in email. im happy to talk with you if Father willing.
    John 16:12
    l have many more things to say to you but you cannot bare them right now. But “He the Spirit of truth comes he will guide you into all truth.

  128. danielB says:

    “SkyRainbow” says :

    ” To all who are fighting Jehovah.
    Change your ways before it’s to late. The dark clouds of the great Tribulation and Armageddon is upon us. You are only hurting yourselves by fighting against Jehovah God for he says: ‘Vengeance is mine; I will repay’ ” .

    Once I heard a curb-side evangelist say things like this in a large city . It was around 1953 .

    Well , SkyRainbow , consider these same words while applying them to the WTBT Society . Only , consider also that the Great Tribuation is near , but not quite yet upon Christians who are close to Christ . The great oppression , or tribulation , is something that Christians will need to endure . And you say that Armageddon “is upon us” . Are you quite sure about this ? We appreciate the warnings that are given to us in the Scriptures . But you are telling the world around you that Armageddon is “upon us” !?

    How can we be convinced of these things you are saying ?

    This brings to mind a question that I have for you today . I don’t want to put it to you in a blatant way , but it needs to be asked .

    Are you a part of a false prophet organization ?

    This is a rhetorical question . You needn’t answer it , but it would be good for you to ponder it .

    I know that everyone here is glad to have you come along and challenge our conversations ; our conversations which are steadily sorting out the truths that we read in the Bible . The vengefulness of God is something that we are all seeking to avoid . In fact , we are doing a better job of it in our association here , than if we sat with you on Sunday for a meeting with your congregation . Won’t you please listen to reason , and settle down , and reconsider the judgmental approach that you keep taking toward us ?

    Let’s just drop the dumb prejudices , and focus on the Son of God .

    I respect your determination . I am sure that others do here too . This is a fine quality . We have the Apostle Paul as an example of this very same thing ; the way in which he was called to fight FOR Christ , rather than Against him . If only you could have a FLASH OF LIGHT occur in front of you . . . , if the Spirit of Christ could turn you , then you too would no longer fight against his brothers .

    Sincere love for you , Skyrainbow .

    bro dan

  129. Frank says:

    Hi Ruth, lovely to hear from you again. You ladies are so good with the sentiments.

    How are you getting on with my ‘Why?’ question. I am so looking to sharing your wisdom, if you so choose to share it.


  130. Ruth says:

    Thanks so much Frank. “So you do have a soft spot then? Just kidding.

    To answer your question.
    Children are not punished for the sins committed by their parents; neither are parents punished for the sins of their children. Each of us is responsible for our own sins. Ezekiel 18:20 tells us, “The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son.” This verse clearly shows that punishment for one’s sins is borne by that person.
    Besides all that. After the W/tower l see Yeshua in a different light! Hes truly wonderful and kind.
    Hes tender and very loving. No baby will die because of parents sins. “We will take them in and look after them in the 1000 year reign.
    If not us woman who have come to Yeshua. Then our Lord will put them in good hands if there parents will not be there.
    But remember God does not want anyone to die. He loves everyone so much.
    Even in this day and age. If we truly love we will love all children that need our help. Particularly as so many are stepchildren. They will need so much love.

  131. Frank says:

    Ruth: “Children are not punished for the sins committed by their parents; neither are parents punished for the sins of their children. Each of us is responsible for our own sins. Ezekiel 18:20 tells us, “The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son.” This verse clearly shows that punishment for one’s sins is borne by that person.”

    Ruth, thank you for your reply. However, I have a question to the question: How does this answer the question? You have told me what, to your mind, isn’t true about God’s ‘love,’ but you haven’t told me WHY God ordered Moses/Joshua to destroy entire Canaanite cities, along with ALL the inhabitants.

    Anyone who makes states their belief that the the Old Testament God is personified love is making an extraordinary claim! So far no one has come up with a satisfactory answer.

    The problem is multiplied when Jesus comes along and makes the claim that he is the ‘exact representation of God’ (Colossians 3). Jesus is kind and loving, but in Revelation he is God’s executioner who destroys ALL who do not believe! (white horse, etc). It would make sense, as some claim, that the Bible book of Revelation is a forgery, as this function departs considerably from the character of Jesus in the Gospels.

    By saying that everyone is responsible for their own sins, you have only added yet another question-mark to the original question.

    Try these ‘solutions’ out for size”

    (1) The Biblical curse that children will suffer to the fourth and fifth generation for the sins of the fathers.” This would morally and ethically work if it ONLY applied to the INDIRECT consequences of the ‘sins of the parents’: Children born in Babylon because of the exile of the Jews, for instance.

    (2) One site claimed that the children and parents were demon-possessed, so this justified God’s execution.

    (3) God killed the Canannites because they sacrificed their children to false gods. Yes, but is there a moral and ethical difference between offering up children as a sacrifice and offering up the children of the same people as spoils of war?

    (4) God didn’t want the children to grow up to be wicked and this was too risky for his people to remain clean. However, babies and children can be re-educated. During the Nazi era children were the first target to mould the minds of the next generation. Do you see my point?

    Do we not naturally feel outraged when children are caught in city-bombings during times of war? How about innocent children starving to death because of bad human management?


  132. Frank says:

    Obviously, the WTBTS is aware of this ethical and moral problem, and this no doubt gives rise to the reason why in Story 10 of the My Book of Bible Stories publication, “The Great Flood,” the artist depicts a mother clutching and comforting her baby as the generation is executed for their unwillingness to listen to the voice of Noah!

    Again in Story 32, Pharaoh’s first-born son is being cradled by his mother. What sin were the baby and child in both these stories guilty of, Ruth? Being in the wrong place and time?

    Needless to say, Jesus appears ONLY with the ‘avenging angels’ in Story 114, and in 115 all the happy Jehovah’s Witness children play with the lions and deer. Notice they are all in their Kingdom Hall clothes! Naturally, in 116, children are instructed how they can live forever – by reading and applying My Book of Bible Stories!

    I assure you, Ruth, I genuinely want a satisfying answer. Merely assuring me that the Old Testament God is ‘loving’ and that what he does ‘is for the best’ fails to satisfy in this information Age. Sadly, we today, despite the imperfections, seemed to have morally and ethically eclipsed Bible morality.

    Therefore, I ask you to give me good reason to trust God.


  133. Ruth says:

    Thanks, but no thanks. l really dont need to go into this. Im more concerned about other things right now.
    Go on the forum and post what you want to say and see what others brothers have to say.
    If your genuine about this answer and you still need a good reason to trust God. Mingle in the back with more studious brothers.
    For me l trust him completely leaving everything in his hands. “Have no worries there! Nor will l get into a debate about this subject.
    Plus, what purpose will it serve me right now? Im finding so many other important subjects l need to get in hand.
    Bye Frank.

  134. Frank says:

    So 1 Peter 3:15 only relates to how you FEEL about God, does it, Ruth? The fact is that there is no answer because that’s how the ancients treated each other. How then are you different from Skyrainbow who rants and accuses but has no gift for posters of this site. Your words are kinder, but there is little substantive to attach a belief to.

    Today there is a huge debate going on, mainly in the Western World about the existence of God, let alone that he is a moral being. Theists say that he is the source of objective morals: this works only if God himself was NOT the source – otherwise how can we say morals are OBJECTIVE? If he IS the source of objective morality, why is the Bible’s morals and ethics so fluid?

    It’s a pity you won’t talk about this, Ruth. You think this is a philosophical challenge. It is not. It goes to the very heart of whether we can trust a God who Biblically appears to act on whims, has racial prejudice, and disregards life while telling his inferior creation to do as he says, but not as he does.

    To be a genuine preacher or an apologist, a defender must be prepared to get their hands dirty when real challenges come up. Speaking abidingly emotionally about an object of someone’s undying love is simply not enough if you are to overturn deeply entrenched things, Ruth.

    Despite your unwillingness to help, I wish you well.


    • Amos says:

      Hello Frank,

      I think that you should not be so agressive towards Ruth. She has stated that she won’t debate & neither will I. She has not in any way that I can see, given you cause to respond as you have.
      You must realize that each poster has the right to either reply or not, & cannot be forced to respond.
      You really must not be so demanding.

      I will ask you some questions now,
      Why are you here?
      Are you still an active JW?
      Is it your purpose to “built up the body of Christ?

      Your agressive criticism does not become a true christian.


  135. Ruth says:

    No substance in my words Frank. Well guess we will never be like you Frank. A genuine preacher or an apologist, a defender a real man of debth and undersatnding of the human nature.
    Guess you have worked me out as a shallow person.

  136. Frank says:

    Hi Amos, who says I was debating? It doesn’t have to be a debate if you or Ruth don’t want that. All I was asking is for a couple of questions to be answered. Apologetes nearly always shy away from uncomfortable questions (trust me, you’re not first one). Why can’t they just say they don’t know the answer? The answer to this is that no one likes to think they fall short in any way. Ruth could have at least quoted the end of the Book of Job where God tells his servant to mind his own business!

    Amos, why are you here? Do you want to bring up convincing Biblical argument or merely give testimonials about how you feel about God. Do you wish to make converts for Christ? If so, you need to show people that your love for heavenly matters is more than just what would appear to non-believers to be little more than an irrational matter of emotion.

    I’m sure Ruth has some notable and positive qualities and genuinely believes in all she says.

    The answer to your first questions is: I’m here to get answers to huge spiritual barriers that TTAT has led to. I know this site and others are to promote love of God, that’s exactly why, if you are the person you claim, you would not hold back from defending the object of your love.

    The answer to your second question is: yes.

    The answer to your third question is the same as the first, and that it depends on whether you can come up with satisfactory answers. That’s what those who follow 1 Peter 3:15 do.

    As to your last sarcastic comment: True Christians seek to overturn deeply entrenched things, not declare a hollow victory by going quiet when the going gets tough.

    One of the stumbling blocks that I observed is that I do not believe that Christianity actually changes anybody deep down, though the New Testament claims it builds a ‘new personality.’

    It seems I was right.


  137. Ruth says:

    ts over by Frank.
    But l will ask you a few last question? Answer in your heart.
    Where were you when we were in really tough assignments for 30 years in the pacific ocean? Year in year out trying to helpl people who could not read and write about the Kingdom of God.
    Yes your right.
    When things get tough the tough get going. “Dont accuse me of not willing to unturn deeply entrenched things. Where were you when l stood up to 5 ministers of the Government,
    talking about the tribulation? “Its still coming Frank” Where were you when l was sourrounded by wild natives deep in the jungles talking about Jesus? Where were you when our food ran out?

    l will tell you this. My heart and life is and always will be dedicated to my God in real spirit and truth. I may not undersatnd everything. But Father in heavens tells me as l go from day to day what is coming.
    You have made one huge mistake Frank. lm proud to say l am my Fathers daughter and l will die for him if need be. What you say even though you do not know me is plain intimidation. Trying to push me in a corner so you can prove a point! Right? Of cause right.

    Now l see you trying to intimidate Amos. Goodness!
    If your heart was humble you would be very kind to your new brothers and sisters.
    Fancy words but no love. Perhaps lots of knowlegde. But, doesnt that puff up if used the wrong way.
    Now tell me l do not have substance. Yes im so upset with people like you.” l feel so sad.


  138. Frank says:

    Ruth, clearly your humility is slipping if you need to justify your faith in God in this way. Do you not think Job was entitled to an explanation after the death of his large family? He was an innocent who was used to prove a point. Are you trying to do the same, Ruth?

    IF the things you say are true, then, at least according to your beliefs, you will get a reward in due time. As it stands your professions have nothing to do with the questions I ask. Obviously, you are great in spirituality, which only causes me to ask all the more why you simply will not just admit you don’t know the answers? This truly takes humility.

    Oh, and by the way, do you think you are the only Christian to risk life and limb? There is no shortage of motive and faith in this world. Do you have anything else?

    As to your accusation of unkindness, show me where I have been unjustifiably unkind! YOU have chosen to challenge my challenge. All I wanted was answers from someone who claimed to know God. Unreasonable?

    The apostle Paul was someone also who used his ‘righteous record’ to answer those who thought he was a ‘superfine apostle.’ It is a natural human response, I grant you – but as I don’t know you personally, my admiration for you will grow only if you can answer my questions. There are no free lunches, Ruth.

    Please just admit you can’t answer the questions and our business is concluded.

    One final thing, if you have been or are a Jehovah’s Witness, rich in good works, what brings you here? Tell us all.


  139. Disappointed says:

    Helo Frank, if your question is a genuine and sincere one, may I suggest that you try google. Type in your question and there are many christian websites that come up with some very satisfactory answers. You may or may not agree with their conclusions but it would be good for you to try and do some of your own research on this subject. If, however your question is merely a challenge to other christians of their faith then this isn’t really the place. This website is to help us keep our faith in God and Christ and not to tear it down. There are other websites you could go to for that. On JWN for instance, there are a number of christians that would be happy to debate with you over your question.

  140. Frank says:

    “Disappointed,” I would iike JJ to confirm that he only allows ear-tickling fluffy-duck ‘encouraging’ comments to be made on this site. To the contrary, he calls it JW Struggle. Do you think my struggle as a JW is any different from anyone elses?

    How do you feel about Skyrainbow’s ‘struggle’?

    If you had read my other comments you would have already picked up that I have done quite a bit of research on the Net and have drawn a blank regarding satisfactory answers. One site, upon my enquiries, even stated: “Don’t ask Christians that question, they won’t answer it.” This man is indeed a prophet.

    You accuse me of attempting to break down a person’s faith and destroy it. I think this statement needs explanation. In what way is asking a sincere question ‘breaking down a person’s faith’? If anyone has half the claims of faith that Ruth has made, surely they would jump at the chance to make another convert for Christ. Isn’t what this is called a defence for what is in our heart (1 Peter 3:15)? If a sincere Christian can’t answer a sincere question, why not do the genuinely humble thing and admit you don’t know the answer!

    What does impress me about Ruth is that, despite her claim to good works (I have no reason to believe they are not true), she is engaged in a struggle and has chosen to come on to a site that the WTS would not hesitate to form a judicial committee about upon realising that merely talking to their representative elders would not solve. This shows the courage of her convictions. I admire that.

    You yourself feel the need to defend the ‘underdog.’ There honestly is no need when an honest answer of “I do not know the answer” would solve everything for this struggling person, and to do it cheerfully.


  141. Disappointed says:

    Frank, I wasn’t accusing you of anything and I’m very sorry if I came across that way. I too asked the same question and found the answers satisfactory (for myself). To say we know the mind of God in all things is impossible. He can see everything. Far more than we as mere humans can see. He see the whole picture. We don’t, we can’t. You mentioned about Job. In his case it was the same between him and his wife. His wife wanted him to curse God and die. Job didn’t want to. He continued to put faith in God. Everyone is different in how they feel and how they react to what they see and to what happens to them. Maybe one day we will find out what the answers are to difficult questions like this. To me, I see how Jesus was when he came to the earth. His love, his compassion. He told his followers he who had seen him had seen the Father also. For me it’s enough. Maybe for you it isn’t. However it is something you will only be able to find in your own way. No one else is able to do it for you. But I really wish you all the best in your struggle, wherever it leads you.

  142. Frank says:

    No doubt you are aware, Disappointed, that many people, including Richard Dawkins do not share your, “It’ll be all right in the end” attitude. Many today consider such reported acts as those of a psychopath (if a human was involved – carnal warfare, for instance).

    The fact is that all of human history has been marred by the human need to emulate divine acts of ‘justice,’ and I’m sure every Catholic Priest and Witch-sniffer genuinely believed that they were doing heaven a favour when they lit the flame below the human pyre.

    I respect your right to your opinion and your right to feel good about God. Yes, the Bible does say that all will become right in the end. Do you feel then that the ‘end justifies the means’? If so, why?

    What is your back-story about why you are here, if I may ask? I said earlier that my observation is that no “new personality” is made. What happens is that we merely create another ‘folder’ in our brains. By compartmentalising our religion, every now and then the ‘real’ us pops out, especially in times of stress.

    Sites like this come about, not only because the technology exists, but because there is a real need now to de-programme ourselves from what the Internet has now revealed about the true nature of religion. This one is dedicated to the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society.

    The WTBTS doesn’t engage in carnal warfare, but it engages in Theocratic War Strategy. Where do you think the morals required for this ‘justified lying’ comes from? This is just ONE example.

    Going back to the Old Testament we find exactly what we expect to find – an ancient paradigm. The fact that there is no convincing archaeology to confirm that ANYTHING happened the way it is portrayed in the Bible should be adequate to question any of these ancient ‘morals’ in this 21st century – but old thinking persists.

    Thank you, Disappointed, for your attention and review of the subject at hand, but may I invite you to tell us WHY you think your ‘answers’ are ‘satisfying’? Yes, I am making more hills for you to climb, but isn’t that what Christian apologetics is all about? You won’t fall by the wayside too, will you?


  143. Disappointed says:

    When I asked the question, I genuinely wanted to try and understand in my limited human capacity. It seems that many other christians have asked the same question. The answers I found that satisfied me are these. On every occasion when God brought destruction himself it was for the purpose of clearing out wickedness and he always gave ample warning for all to take advantage of.During the time the Canaanites were cleared out of the land, they too had opportunity to be spared, as in the case of Rahab and her family and the Rechabites.The Canaanites were a people with depraved practices, including child sacrifice to false gods, in other words, devil worship. Not all cities were to be completely wiped out, including children. This made me ask ‘why’.. why some and not all? The bible doesn’t answer specifically but there was one case where a descendent of one of these people (where the Israelites hadn’t carried it out)Haman, an Agagite, almost succeeded in having the Jews wiped out as a people in the later Persian Empire. Did God forsee this happening? Who knows? All I know is, is that God IS a God of love but he is also a God of wisdom and justice. It’s enough for me to put my faith and my trust in him. Each of us here are on a personal journey and no one can travel that journey for someone else, we each have to find our own way. Some find these answers unsatisfactory and will turn away from God altogether and that is their choice. I think there is enough information in this technological age for each one of us to do our own research and come to our own conclusions. It’s a continual process of learning and discovery, who can say they have all the answers? Being free of man-made organised religion is a good thing. For me being free of religion doesn’t mean being free of Christ. He is leading me to the real and true God and there is real freedom in that. If you see God as a vindictive, vengeful God then you don’t see the God I see.

  144. Frank says:

    Thanks, Disappointed. This is great stuff! I’ll get back to you when I’ve paragraphed it (for ease of analysis) and analysed it.

    Thanks again


  145. Frank says:

    First of all, Disappointed, I would like to thank you for taking your valuable time to write this post.

    “Disappointed says:
    January 4, 2013 at 4:56 am

    When I asked the question, I genuinely wanted to try and understand in my limited human capacity. It seems that many other christians have asked the same question. The answers I found that satisfied me are these:

    (1)On every occasion when God brought destruction himself it was for the purpose of clearing out wickedness and he always gave ample warning for all to take advantage of.”

    My rebuttal: Deuteronomy 18: 18,19; Hosea 12:10; Amos 3:7, tell of Jehovah sending prophets to warn HIS PEOPLE about impending doom.

    Can you please show me ONE scripture in all the records of the Moses or Joshua wars where God sends a prophet or someone to warn the Canaanite people prior to THEIR impending doom, Disappointed? Rahab had heard by third-hand about the ‘successes’ of the Israelite army, yet you claim God always gave ample warning.’

    “(2)During the time the Canaanites were cleared out of the land, they too had opportunity to be spared, as in the case of Rahab and her family and the Rechabites.”

    My rebuttal: Again, so that I may learn, Disappointed, please show me references where opportunities were created for entire cities to repent and be spared?

    “(3)The Canaanites were a people with depraved practices, including child sacrifice to false gods, in other words, devil worship.”

    My rebuttal: This is without doubt, and the Bible speaks eloquently about this. Can you please explain, Disappointed, where the difference lies ethically and morally between destroying city-inhabitants for sacrificing children to false gods and sacrificing the children and babies of the cities as ‘spoils of war’?

    “(4 Not all cities were to be completely wiped out, including children. This made me ask ‘why’.. why some and not all? The bible doesn’t answer specifically but there was one case where a descendent of one of these people (where the Israelites hadn’t carried it out) Haman, an Agagite, almost succeeded in having the Jews wiped out as a people in the later Persian Empire. Did God forsee this happening? Who knows?”

    My rebuttal: It is interesting in this holy book of truth, that the very matter that would have ameliorated this situation is left out of the record! Even if there was a ‘good reason,’ though, would this still justify the murder (I’m sure you will call it ‘execution’) of even ONE child or baby, who would have had no concept of right and wrong, Disappointed?

    Do you think Haman, who came much much later; a single example, is sufficient to symbolise the love and justice of God in these matters?

    “(5)All I know is, is that God IS a God of love but he is also a God of wisdom and justice. It’s enough for me to put my faith and my trust in him. Each of us here are on a personal journey and no one can travel that journey for someone else, we each have to find our own way. Some find these answers unsatisfactory and will turn away from God altogether, and that is their choice.”

    Forgive me, Disappointed, but here you make an extraordinary claim. It IS true that the Old Testament God is recorded as having done more than a few good works. The creation of the earth is his greatest. But I would like to pose you a question:

    If the OT God is infinite in love and wisdom, then it is not out of bounds to assume that he had infinite ways to handle sin and imperfect humans – the object of his perfect love. Why then did he choose a method that has meant the greatest cost to mankind? Examine Earth’s ‘6000-year’ history?

    “(6)I think there is enough information in this technological age for each one of us to do our own research and come to our own conclusions.”

    My rebuttal: I’m glad you brought this up, Disappointed. William Lane Craig, one of America’s best-known Christian apologists, tells us that God did no wrong. Why? Because the adults (presumably he also means the women whose part was likely merely having their babies and children torn from them to become human sacrifices to appease false gods) were justly executed for their sins ( The children and babies were justifiably killed because they were ‘fast-tracked’ to heaven!

    Perhaps, like me, you have wondered why God has chosen to use a human sacrifice also to bring about the fulfilment of his purposes and likewise presses his worshippers to sacrifice their children into his service.

    “(8)It’s a continual process of learning and discovery, who can say they have all the answers? Being free of man-made organised religion is a good thing. For me being free of religion doesn’t mean being free of Christ. He is leading me to the real and true God and there is real freedom in that. If you see God as a vindictive, vengeful God then you don’t see the God I see.”

    Is this part of your back-story, Disappointed, when you mention ‘manmade organised religion’? Do you include the Watchtower organisation in this? They obviously do not.

    By stating that you do not have freedom from Christ, how will you then proceed? Do you think God doesn’t have an organisation on Earth?

    Thank you, Disappointed, for your contribution to these issues. I would be pleased if you would rebut my rebuttals. If not, then, again, thanks.

  146. Disappointed says:

    Ok Frank, I’ll try! :)
    1)In this instance I was actually thinking of the flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, the firstborns of Egypt. Any time that God brought about it himself without human intervention.
    2)I think there is enough evidence to show that the Canaanites KNEW what was happening from the response of Rahab and the Gibeonites/Rechabites (Josh 2:8-13;Josh 9:24,25) On the other hand the rest of the kings of Canaan etc. decided to make war.(Josh 9:1,2).
    3)This of course is the dilemma when we are asking these questions. I have no answer to this one, which is why I leave it in God’s hands and trust in his judgement.
    4)Again, only God in his far-sightedness would have the answer to this one. You’re right, there is nothing in the scriptures to say why it had to happen this way.
    5)Because man CHOSE it that way. One of God’s greatest gifts to us is that of a free will, the freedom to choose. Did mankind make the wisest choice? Obviously not, it speaks for itself.
    6)The point I was trying to make here is that we cannot rely on others to do our work for us in finding out these things. If it’s already there to read and examine, fair enough, but we have to come to our own conclusions. As for children these days being sacrificed into service today, that is religion.. not God.
    7)Yes, I do include the WT in this. No, I do not believe God has an organisation on earth.

    In conclusion, I would just like to point to Christ Jesus who showed us his Father. He came to the earth and healed the sick, the lame, the blind, he raised the dead. He gave to the poor and fed them. He showed the Law to be imperfect and how it had been twisted, leaving out forgiveness and mercy, love and compassion. He felt pity for people, those same feelings we get when watching the news. He condemned the hard hearted for their lack of love and forgiveness. Jesus Christ is the WAY to God.
    Do we know everything there is to know? Of course not! Job had no idea why the things happening to him happened.He concluded it was God bringing it about. However God told him that he didn’t have a clue. Job 38-42 is an excellent read in showing that we can’t possibly understand it all. One day we will I’m sure. In the meantime I personally prefer to put these questions on hold to be answered at a future time by God Himself than to lose my faith and trust in Him. The God I see is the God that Christ Jesus showed us and that’s enough for me.
    Frank, whatever you decide and whatever conclusions you come to it has to be right for you. Not for me, not for Ruth, not for Amos or anyone else. For you. Obviously I hope you come to the same conclusions as me and learn to love God again, but I have to be realistic and understand that it doesn’t happen to everyone and many become atheist because they can’t comprehend what they read in the bible. However, if you find Jesus Christ, you will find peace and joy.

  147. Frank says:

    Your patience with me, Disappointed, is indeed commendable. Unfortunately, none of your answers actually answer my main question, which is: How is it moral for the God of the Old Testament to kill the children of child-killers.

    As one would expect, people like Ruth, have a sentimental understanding of the way they WISH God to be. Hence:

    “Ruth says:
    January 1, 2013 at 3:59 am

    To answer your question.
    Children are not punished for the sins committed by their parents; neither are parents punished for the sins of their children. Each of us is responsible for our own sins. Ezekiel 18:20 tells us, “The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son.” This verse clearly shows that punishment for one’s sins is borne by that person.


    However, I would like to rebut your rebuttals thus:

    (1)As far as I know, Sodom and Gomorrah had no preaching campaign to warn the inhabitants. Abraham pleaded for the ‘righteous’ and God said they were all wicked – EVEN THE CHILDREN AND BABIES! There is no evidence Lot carried out a campaign as a ‘preacher of righteousness.’ Again, for Egypt, no campaign. The inhabitants were in the hands of Pharaoh, who, apparently, was responsible for the death of the firstborns and the devastation of his country and economy. This would not satisfy the ethics and morals of the West today.

    (2)NONE of the scriptures gives evidence of a campaign (like Jeremiah, Ezekiel, or even Jonah) of preaching within the territories of the Canaanites. If so, where are they? Rahab only knew of the destruction of other cities, and was merely given A SINGLE OPPORTUNITY for salvation through this unique set of circumstances. The WTBTS’s idea that her family could also take advantage is PURE SPECULATION! The Gibeonites made Joshua angry for their even requesting salvation, acceded, then made them slaves! Can you point out where the ‘love’ starts, please?

    (3)You are right, I never expected you to answer it. I don’t think it’s a dilemma.

    (4)It was obvious God wanted to wipe out everything that ‘threatened’ HIS PEOPLE. Interestingly, archaeologists Finkelstein and Silberman (Google it – The Bible Unearthed) went into the Promised Land fully expecting to verify that the land belonged to the Israelis (Obviously, by their names, they are Jews). What they found was almost no evidence for Biblical verifications. What they surmised is that the Israelites WERE the Canaanites as there seems to be an unbroken line of art between the two races. Fascinating stuff. I hope I do them no wrong in my conclusions – As you have suggested, Disappointed, you need to take a journey too.

    (5)Today, people rely on education and understanding of the world around them. To make an informed choice, one must consider ALL ANGLES. Have you done that Disappointed?

    (6)See number 5.

    (7)Notably, the subject we’ve been talking about eloquently gives testimony to God’s ability to formulate organisational procedure. This does not ameliorate the issues I raise, it merely shows that group salvation is a possibility. Do you then believe that each Christian formulates his own set of personal Biblical interpretations and goes his own way with the expectation of salvation with all other individuals?


    It is for the reason that Christ’s actions towards his fellow countrymen was so different, that many believe the Biblical accounts to be seriously flawed. There is no doubt that the Old Testament God needed some positive PR, but it is only when we look at Revelation that we see Christ riding on a white horse ready again to send children and babies to the earth once again (context).

    No, we don’t know everything there is to know. However, humans are called upon to make their decisions on insufficient, even contradictory, information. In 1 Peter (I think) it says that God wants all to attain to salvation. Has he made this easy for mankind or extremely complicated? I don’t wish to pick on Ruth, but clearly she needs to educate herself on the bigger picture.

    I am agnostic. Richard Dawkins calls me a ‘namby pamby fencesitter,’ despite naming himself agnostic sometimes. I disagree. Agnostics are open-minded; atheists and theists are not. Scientists, by their very nature, are agnostics. It isn’t that we place our lives in their hands, we just have a ‘wait and see’ attitude. Tell me, Disappointed, do you go where the evidence takes you?

    Peace to you, my friend.

    I wonder if there are any more Christians who will attempt to pull this sword out of the stone. Are there any other champions here?


    • Amos says:

      Hi Frank,
      I knew that in time you would reveal who you really are. This is why I didn’t respond to your last post addressed to me.

      As Disappointed has said, “If you really want to debate this further then as I said before Frank, go to JWN.”

      If you are really trying to find “the truth” then please aproach it in a humble way. As has been suggested to you previously, you could also join the forum attached to this site. Please do this however, only if you are seeking the truth, & not just out for mindless debates.

      • Anonymous says:

        Hi Frank,
        I knew that in time you would reveal who you really are. This is why I didn’t respond to your last post addressed to me.

        As Disappointed has said, “If you really want to debate this further then as I said before Frank, go to JWN.”

        If you are really trying to find “the truth” then please aproach it in a humble way. As has been suggested to you previously, you could also join the forum attached to this site. Please do this however, only if you are seeking the truth, & not just out for mindless debates.

        I’m sorry, Amos, I wasn’t aware you ran this site. I’m sure if JJ wishes to silence this “mindless debate,” he will do so.

        Amos, there is no such thing as a mindless debate – IF it is carried out, as it should be, with the dignity and, most of all, genuine argument!

        It occurs to me that you have your own agenda in ‘suggesting’ that I go to another site to have my “mindless debate.” Why are the arguments I bring up ‘mindless’? What are you afraid of? I only have a javelin.

        You seem to feel threatened when genuine objections are brought up because you appear to feel insecure in your ‘truth.’ If, not, why does this post not contain some argument from you? If you have ‘the truth’ you would be having a “meaningful argument” with, surely!

        Logic is dwarfed by emotion when it comes to religion, and eventually it becomes personal. You see yourself as a sentinel to whatever you are guarding, but if you cannot overcome (1 Peter 3:15) my ‘truth,’ perhaps it is you who should go to another site.

        What does the word ‘frank’ mean, Amos?


      • Anonymous says:

        Hi Frank,
        I knew that in time you would reveal who you really are. This is why I didn’t respond to your last post addressed to me.

        As Disappointed has said, “If you really want to debate this further then as I said before Frank, go to JWN.”

        If you are really trying to find “the truth” then please aproach it in a humble way. As has been suggested to you previously, you could also join the forum attached to this site. Please do this however, only if you are seeking the truth, & not just out for mindless debates.

        What exactly is it I am, Amos?

      • Frank Leeh says:

        Hi Frank,
        I knew that in time you would reveal who you really are. This is why I didn’t respond to your last post addressed to me.

        As Disappointed has said, “If you really want to debate this further then as I said before Frank, go to JWN.”

        If you are really trying to find “the truth” then please aproach it in a humble way. As has been suggested to you previously, you could also join the forum attached to this site. Please do this however, only if you are seeking the truth, & not just out for mindless debates.

        Amos, who am I really? You haven’t got to the bit where you accuse me as being of the Devil. I was quite happy that you didn’t reply to me. As seen from this post, you have obviously run out of genuine argument.

        No debate is mindless (no thought involved) if handled with human dignity (please explain why if you think I haven’t done so) and good argument. Obviously you feel threatened as it is you now engaging in not-very-well-veiled put-downs.

        By ‘humble,’ do you mean acquiesce to your frame-of-mind? Should I then bypass the obvious questions that are rightly asked by genuine seekers? You remember – the ones still to be answered!

        If you are not up to the task of placing logical argument in place of fluffy-duck expressions of emotion for your object of affection, then perhaps it is you who would be happy on other sites. Try any American Southern-State Charismatic web-pages; they’ll always welcome another brother.


        • Amos says:

          Dear Frank,
          I have not run out of arguement, but choose not to engage in fruitless discussions such as you’re encouraging.
          FYI, there’s nothing fluffy duck about my approach to the scriptures, as the last couple of years on this & other sites will affirm. I’ll not respond to you again, unless your attitude & manners improve.

  148. JimmyG says:

    It seems to me that Frank is passionate about this subject and this should not be mistaken for ‘aggression’. In my opinion the hard questions should not be ignored or swept under the carpet. Yes, they challenge our belief systems and can make us feel uncomfortable when we don’t have the answers.

    I too have grappled with the contrasting God depicted in the OT and NT. I cannot morally/ethically stomach the thought of God commanding that babies, toddlers and pregnant women be murdered, run through with a sword in wholesale slaughter. The WT still teaches that a wholesale slaughter will occur at Armageddon to EVERYONE not in the Org, including babies and young children.

    Is this what a God of love approves of?

  149. Disappointed says:

    As I said before Frank, I don’t know what God knows but I do put my complete trust in Him. He sent his Son who showed us the Way and it’s enough for me. I do not see Revelations in the way the WT do. To me it is a book about how good will conquer evil. Armageddon is not about the destruction of billions of innocents but of suffering mankind being rid of rapists, murderers, drugs and arms dealers, governments that line their pockets while their people starve etc. This is my God… he’s a God of love, of justice and wisdom. He’s the God Jesus showed me.
    If you really want to debate this further then as I said before Frank, go to JWN. There are many on there who feel as you do and there are also a number of christians who would be more than happy to try and answer your questions I’m sure.

    • Frank says:

      Hi Disappointed. You’re expressions contain no more useful information, unfortunately, pertaining to the subject. By saying, “I don’t know what God knows,” are you able, then to admit that, as a Christian devoted to the worship of the OT God, that you cannot defend his actions? Are you prepared to admit that vital information has been left out of the Bible that could save a ‘doubter’s’ life if these all-important stumbling questions are not answered?

      “We need faith,” you say?

      Why does the personified-love OT God place ‘faith’ as a stumbling block to salvation? If the salvation of the human-race is on his mind, why do we have only a sketchy idea (over 1000 Christian religions)of who his ‘exact representation’ is?

      When does ‘faith’ become credulity?

      The fact is, Disappointed, Ruth, yourself and others have made extraordinary claims about God with questions that are yet to be answered. Are you apologists, preachers, teachers, or merely well-wishers?

      Encouragement will come from the self-esteem garnered for working towards a genuine goal of truth. This requires effort – sorry.


  150. skyrainbow says:

    Frank is unmasked as a dangerous atheist. He likes discussions and debates. He is a loser. He lost his faith and trust in Jehovah and now he is trying to undermine the faith in God of others. Jude 12 speaks about that kind of people as ‘rocks hidden below water’. He has already followers like JimmyG, another ‘rock hidden below water’ in his congregation.

    • Frank Leeh says:

      This is fascinating, Skyrainbow. Are all posers of questions ‘atheists’? And why are those who ‘like discussions and debates,’ losers?

      True to your masters, as in the Matthew Barrie judicial case in Glasgow, you misapply scripture. In what way am I ‘a hidden reef’? I’ve been open about all my thoughts. A loser, surely, is someone who keeps ringing the bell of the neighbour’s door and running away! Someone who calls people names and makes no argument.

      Your insult to JimmyG, again my dear, is up to your usual standard of hypocrisy. Have you been to the elders yet to let them know about your special function as ‘apostle to the apostates’ yet? Do you count the time you spend at JW Struggle on your monthly report card?


  151. Freethinkerinjah says:

    Dear Frank,
    Greetings. I have been reading your posts, and your shares remind me of similar issues of , why did babies, and other “innocents” have to die. I also wondered at the unfair injustices in my own life, like why I was born in such a horrible abusive family, and for so many years never given the opportunities as other children, such as the basic human needs, love and care. I had a major “bone to pick with Jehovah”, and all this as being a JW, for many years.
    I will share my own hope, strength , and experience in how I dealt with this mountain.
    First of all, the scriptures help me somewhat, on an intellectual level, but not on a heart felt level,
    And I got tired of the scriptural reasonings to try to make peace with all this. I needed more.
    Years ago when I left the Organization, because of crisis of conscience matters, because the OR. Did not teach what Jesus taught, from my perspective, I went through a period of feeling condemned, and forgotten by Jehovah. When I finally felt signed off by the most High, I eventually arrived at the conclusion that if I am going to die at Armageddon , then I might as well really say what was on my mind to Jehovah, you know, kinda the last words you say, before they hang ya.
    Well, guess what. I yelled , cussed, cried, asked why, why, why, I was honest , I asked about all the unfair things in my life and in the lives of others, I did not spare any angry thought, feeling, or conclusion. I said , well if you are really God, you can take this. I did this day after day, walking in the country side where know one could hear me and think I was one of those “crazies”
    Well, a strange think happen, It got really guiet, and then I started to laugh. I thought well what do I have to lose, If I am going to die, then at least I can be honest with God and do whatever I want to.
    Then I realized that all I really wanted to do is really be honest and really tell God what I wanted without fear of being wacked. That started me on a life long path I telling God anything I wanted, every thought, hurt, any question, any concern, anything I want. What a freedom! And quess what, after 12 years, of that first, temper tantime I still here, still asking God why etc,etc. Did I get all my all my questions addressed? No. Did I get total peace about all the injustices? No. What I did get was a listening hear and a sounding board, more peace in my life, and a valuable gift of prayer and being honest with God. What I got was a way to vent my anger and frustration in a healthy way without harming others with my negative energy, and expecting mere mortal human to answer questions that only a higher power can.
    Have I gotten more insights that help me to understand God? Yes. And more is being revealed to me with each prayer.. But this is my personal story, and I belive God knows how to unlock the door to each human heart that is barring entry into the path of more understanding, peace and senenity.
    Frank, I understand somewhat of your concerns, but I cannot know your pain as you know it, But I can say that you seem to have a love of justice and what is fair and you want to know why. I think that is a good thing, I shows a sensitive heart, you care, you love, you are a precious human being. The world would be a better place if every one followed their sensitive hearts, and acted on what is fair.
    I personally feel Jehovah will make everything right one day, and you will get your answers and all will be resurrected to a real life. but if not, if God just decided that this is one big experience for his own self. And all is packed up, we all die, we won’t know the difference anyway, at least we got 70 years to make the best of it.and at least speak our mind with God and tell it like it is, cause what do we have to lose, and what can we gain? The worst we can vent, the best we get some peace now in this moment and forever.
    Be well my friend,

    • Frank Leeh says:

      Hi Freethinkerinjah! Finally, someone with some argument! Thank you.

      I have said in previous posts that the fall-out from the bad decision of parents and caregivers is not what I’m asking. If a drug-user gets hepatitis and gives this to her baby, the baby suffers, but is not DIRECTLY caused by God. This stumbles me only in that the historical circumstances leading up to this situation was not of her doing – starting from the bite of the fruit in the garden of our original ancestors (Biblically-speaking).

      Ruth thinks that I should search with my heart for my answers. This is not good advice. Jeremiah warns us that the ‘heart is treacherous, who can know it?’ Here’s my dilemma: If you think deeply in you heart and REALLY delve deep into the beliefs of Nazism, do you FEEL that its leader could have created the world he spoke of in Mein Kamph? Scout’s hounour, I mean no disrespect and I make NO COMPARISON – This is a legitimate argument about, as Ruth put it, ‘listening to the truth with one’s heart.’

      With centuries of regimes that have taken on Old Testament ethics – Crusades, inquisitions, blessing armies, there is a lot of work Christians must do to rectify misunderstandings (if any exist) today. Merely putting down the questions of truth-seekers will not impress, nor will it save those who are the objects of the supposed salvation.

      I’m presuming that you left the WTBTS because you didn’t like who they were anymore – is that right? You allude well to this. Tell me, Free…, what ethics were they using? Where did they learn their ethics? Where does Theocratic War Strategy come from, for instance? Some bloodstains just won’t wipe away.

      I get a lot of flack on this site because people here think I’m ‘dissing’ God. All I am doing, actually, is questioning the Bible record, which claims to be God’s autobiography.

      I’m saying what I am because it’s in my heart. Looking behind the veil starts with uncovering the WTBT’s scandals and ends, sadly with a studious look at the Bible’s ‘scandals.’

      What was revealed to you in each prayer? Information? Feelings? Understanding? If understanding – of what?

      I want to trust Jesus as you do, but what good reason is there to do that? Who, on this site, so far, has proved to be in the image of Christ? I hold a candle for Jimmy G. Thank you for trying.


  152. JimmyG says:

    Skyrainbow- back again with your usual name calling and avoiding even a semblance of effort to contribute to the discussion at hand.

    By the the way I ‘follow’ no human, unlike yourself who ‘follows’ and believes every utterance supposedly coming forth from the 8 humans on the GB.

    Also, please look up in the dictionary 2 words- first, ‘agnostic’. Second, ‘atheist’.

  153. Freethinkerinjah says:

    Dear Framk,
    Thank you for your share.
    I will try to address some of your comments on leaving the Organization.
    When I left many moons ago, it was due to a combination of things, primarily I had to take time out for my spritiual and physical health because I was going throught some very traumatic times. I was actually in the process of fading and being inactive, but due to a misunderstanding the elders throught I was disassociating myself, which I did not discover this misunderstanding years later, as they held me to this by what I wrote in a letter, requesting time out.
    When I got my health back and spirituality on track, I was ready to come back, during which the time of years that elapsed, not one elder ever encourage, or tried to offer spritiual help. I was on my own, yet In time learned to rely on prayer, and I learned a valuable lesson, God saves, not a organization, body of elders or the GB. I realized I was actually putting the organization before Jehovah, I was an accidental idol worshiper!
    I put more stock in the magazines and gave my power over to the GB to define me, and my relationship with God and others. Given the fact that I came from an abusive controlling alcoholic family, the seeds of being compliment to trusting in man were already there, it took time to have this fact revealed to me. It was in the arena of JW , that this would play out in time.
    Today, I am not defined by any man or approved or disapproved, I answer only to Jehovah and Christ.
    Today, though prayer and meditation I receive the spiritual discernment that is custom made for me from Jehovah’s will for me. Today it is only my job to turn my will over to God and look within at what I need to do to do no harm, and mind my own business, and not get in the way of others path or be anyone’s higher power.
    Today I have freedom from slavery to man and take each day as it comes. Life is not always rosy, I still tell God how I really feel, I get mad, irritated, and tell God what I don’t like. I don,t sugar coat reality, And I tell Jehovah when I think something is unfair or not to my liking. At the very least I calm down, and the irritation
    Leaves, and something cool happens.
    At the very best, I get spritiual discernment on something I didn’t se at first, and experience peace of mind.
    My daily life as become and excersize in prayer, like my favorite scripture in Phil 4:6-7 Don’t worry about anything, instead pray about everything. Tell God what you need, and thank him for all he has done. then you will experience God’s peace, which exceeds anything we can understand. his peace will guard your hearts, and minds as you live in Christ Jesus.
    Any way this is what works for me, this share on this post is my own hope, strength and experience. Each person’s path is there own And I adhere to no right or wrong for anyone. Each human is free to choose his process, and I learn from each person’s choices.
    Best to you Frank, on your path of discover!

    leaves and something cool happens, at the best I gain some spritiual insight that I did not see at first.

    • Frank says:

      Hi Freethinking. The lamentable story you tell in the first paragraph is a universal experience among doubting JW’s like yourself. This was one of the primary motivations for the Scriptural re-examination of two very loving ex-JWs who were disfellowshipped in the 1980s for having told some they could no longer conscientiously accept some of the Watchtower teachings. If you want the link to their judicial committee recording, I can supply it. The elders had called merely on the pretext that they had been reported by other congregation members THEY HAD INVITED FOR DINNER!

      This was my experience too – lazy elders. Your elders obviously ignored Christ’s admonition to ‘go after the lost sheep’ When someone reduces or stops going to meetings, evidently more-often-than-not the un-Christ-like conclusion is drawn – “they have fallen prey to Satan’s world.” We cannot blame them necessarily because publications have taught them this rubbish for decades. We have our very own Skyrainbow as evidence of the rabid, foaming, result that accrues with such mental-conditioning, buteing reduced to dribbling one-sentence insults and invective is what one would expect.

      Unlike this example, you are not a bell-ringer and are genuinely hurting. I know how that feels. I would love to encourage you about a gentle, all-loving, creator, but as you will notice, I have trust issues to sort out. So far, there have only been attacks on my mental state, homilies, and eviction notices. Why should you or I have to put up with that? JimmyG is the exception.


  154. JimmyG says:

    Skyrainbow- you have gone a bit quiet. Your cherry picked scripture in Jude 12, referring to people like Frank and me as ‘rocks hidden below water’ was an interesting choice. Maybe you have finally taken the advice given to you by me and others and sailed your spiritual boat away, lest it founder on ‘apostate’ rocks hidden below water.

    • Frank says:

      Hi JimmyG. I’m afraid Skyrainbow has missed the boat on that one. Her hypocrisy knows no bounds as she has apparently failed to take your advice and confessed her apostate-leanings (being on this “apostate site”), had her mind re-adjusted, and once again joined the collective.

      Sky still hasn’t got that the Devil misquoted scriptures too. Perhaps we with our years of Biblical experience can readjust her thinking. What do you say, Skyrainbow?


  155. Ruth says:

    “Why are you so angry?” the LORD asked Cain. “Why do you look so dejected? You will be accepted if you do what is right. But if you refuse to do what is right, then watch out! Sin is crouching at the door, eager to control you. But you must subdue it and be its master.”
    Genesis 4:6-7
    How do you react when someone suggests you have done something wrong? Do you move to correct the mistake or deny that you need to correct it? After Cain’s gift was rejected, God have him the chance to right his wrong and try again. But Cain refused.
    The next time someone suggests you are wrong, take an honest look at yourself and choose God’s way instead of Cain’s.

    • Frank says:

      Ruth, I am not sure whether you had me in mind with the misunderstanding you obviously have here. Perhaps you lump me in with Skyrainbow. This truly is an insult as she seems happy to be my enemy.

      There is no archaeological evidence that any of the story of ‘Adam and Eve’ is true. This makes Cain and Abel, likewise a homilistic story (originally for Jews).

      Please point out to me what I am doing wrong! A third of the world’s population is Muslim; are they wrong? Why? You like to feel good?

      You have admonished me to look to my heart for the answers. Why are the answers there? If you mean that I should react emotionally to what you say, then surely I have the pick of over a thousand ‘Christian’ religions. Thanks a bunch! That really helps.


  156. skyrainbow says:

    Ruth, although I respect you very much, I am quite sure you are wrong by losing your trust in “the faithful and discreet slave”.

  157. skyrainbow says:

    JimmyG, I am glad you miss me already after a few days. You told already several times you are ‘still active in the organisation’, ‘in stealth mode’, but renouncing that same organisation. The Bible calls such persons ‘rocks hidden below water’.

  158. skyrainbow says:

    Frank, you are asking if ‘all posers of questions are atheists’.
    No, it depends of the kind of questions somenone is posing. And about dicussions and debates the Bible speaks about ‘spiritually diseased’ who like ‘questionings and debates’. 1 Timothy 6:4

    • Frank says:

      Again, you are misapplying scriptures, Skyrainbow. Paul here refers to debates about the Christ that led to some being labelled ‘antichrist’ because they tried to contaminate HIS form of religion. God intended for others to see what he ‘would prove to be’ and it is said that the Bible is autobiographical in this sense.

      This is NOT a ‘mindless debate’ as it pertains to the very nature of the object of worship. You evidently would have trusted the whimsical will of the Greek and Roman gods had you been born in that time and place. Trying to dismiss the VERY REAL issues and trying to ‘paper over the cracks’ in the Bible’s unsatisfactory explanations about the person that is worshipped is simply folly.

      Today the Biblical scandals are blown wide open. Once Scriptually-ignorant people (like yourself) would have just accepted what they were told (you obviously still are accepting it). Now, worshipppers must front with genuine explanations – this is what apologetics IS!


  159. Freethinkerinjah says:

    Sorry about the typo at the end of my last share. I have not got the editing perfected yet.

  160. danielB says:

    Dear Skyrainbow ,

    It isn’t that any of us have lost trust and confidence in the Faithful & Discreet Slave ; but rather that we identify who they are much better than we used to . We know how that the faithful and wise / discreet servants are , and dispensing spritual food at the proper times for this . Please just consider as you read of them , that they are not simply indigionous to the WTO . I hope that you too will come to see this more clearly . There have been some good discussion on the subject here at this site , and many others too . True knowledge is indeed abundant nowadays , as it seems that Daniel had fortold , and to look further beyond the organization yeilds great results . I hope the best for you dear . May you be blessed with new discoveries !

  161. Frank says:

    Skyrainbow, YOU are the ‘rocks hidden below water.’ At least JimmyG admits to leading a ‘double life.’ You are yet even to admit that to yourself!

    What JimmyG is doing is compartmentalising his religion. ALL humans do this and do it well (others not so well). If the choice came between two integrity-keepers, you wouldn’t even come off second-best. In fact, I would be happy to dismiss ANYTHING you say that you think I should listen to.

    You stick to your guns, JimmyG.


  162. Disappointed says:

    @Frank, I’m not sure what it is exactly that you want. You no longer believe the bible is God’s word and also that God is a cruel God. As it says at the top ‘this site has been set up to help you keep faith in God and Christ and maintain a spiritual balance as you wake up to the truth about the truth.’ You don’t seem to want to be helped, in fact it seems as though you want to ‘help’ us by showing us what a terrible God we have. If that is your agenda, it’s not going to work.

    @Skyrainbow, the faithful and discreet slave was a parable and not a prophecy. Check your bible. Who chose 8 men in Brooklyn to be this faithful and discreet slave? They did. First it was bro. Russell, chosen by his wife. This was then accepted by the other bible student as a fact until the 1920’s. After that it was the anointed remnant on earth. Now it is the Governing Body alone since 1919 (although there was no GB until the 70’s) and bro Russell never was the FDS. So it seems the FDS never even knew who it actually was itself until last October (the new light hidden on If it wasn’t for bro. Russell there would be no WT or WT Society. So why should we accept something just because a man (or men) says so? Don’t the scriptures tell us NOT to do this? (Matt15:9; Acts 5:29). Shouldn’t it be Jesus Christ teaching us by means of the Holy Spirit?

    • Frank says:

      Disppointed, I don’t know how to make myself clearer; either I’m not communicating accurately or you are not the brightest bulb in the light factory. Yes, and IF you can answer my questions – AS I HAVE STATED BEFORE – a ‘faith’ can be saved. Yet, not one person here can explain why I should not view the Old Testament creator as merely a tribal god whose memetic idea went global!

      I was a JW for decades until I had had it with people who simply were not whom they claimed to be. Then came the probe into what I had been ‘persuaded’ to believe and – zap! The same thing! I am very glad you were not an elder in my congregation – I would have been disfellowshipped LONG AGO! Thanks a bunch.

      You have failed. Sadly the challenge still stands

  163. danielB says:

    Frank , please give Skyrainbow a break here . Just consider how that she keeps coming back , because she needs us . She may seem to be a rock below these waters here that could trip us up , however , she can’t do that . Also consider that she has to tolerate your ungodly thinking . She should be congratulated !!!

    • Frank says:

      DanielB, I think Skyrainbow thinks of her little forays here as phone sex.

      Tell me, Daniel, could you at least find your way to explaining why I have ‘ungoldy thinking.’ Is this because I have raised legitimate questions or because I don’t accept a premise on the basis that it is YOUR premise and that you have the courage of YOUR CONVICTIONS?

      Why are you here if not to overcome my objections and make a new man out of me?

      Can you defend your the-object-of-your-worship’s actions? No? Then just admit it and our business is at an end.


  164. Frank says:

    For all those who may still be hankering after a lost religious love, such as Skyrainbow, I urge to read this article and view at the first and second Youtube videos on it. The end is nigh, but not necessarily for this system – yet.

    What becomes clear is support for MY claims – that modern religious organisations like the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society still CLEARLY use Old Testament Biblical morality!

    Argue that one, Disappointed and Skyrainbow. I’m Waiting.


    • Amos says:

      What I would recommend is that everyone just ignore Frank, until someone who has the authority deletes his account or he leaves, whichever comes first. The argumentation & attitude of Frank is not one of love, just a desire to entrap other members on this site.

      While I don’t agree with Skyrainbow, I think that Frank has singled her out for unwarranted persecution. This must stop Frank. You are nothing but an argumentative bully. I’m sure that if you met any of us face to face, you would act & speak in an entirely different manner.

      A very concerned believer,

  165. danielB says:

    Frank : it seems to me that you are on some type of speed-drugs . You ought to come back down to reality , before you post another message here with us . You are being really wanky .

  166. danielB says:

    Ams , I agree with your comment totally . . .

    Frank needs to escape his drug addiction , or rethink his comments ; and then extend an appolagy to us all here for being a God-Accusing & incompassionite intruding person here , in our midst . . .

  167. Frank says:

    Amos, my friend, I have done no such thing. YOU and all who fail to defend the actions of the God you worship have laid the trap and fallen head-long into it yourselves. I only came here asking questions. Actually, bullies are those who, when failing to succeed forcibly to dominate in an encounter, run off to find their big brothers to deal with ‘the problem.’ Remind you of anyone? Go back over this blog page and then extract the rafter from your own eye.

    If you think meeting with you would make any difference, you don’t know me. I have had elders for breakfast many-a-time. I have been diagnosed with a form of autism, that’s why your emotions only seem like silly reasoning to me.

    Is your ‘faith’ so fragile that it cannot stand the first gust that comes to blow your house down? Where is your abiding trust that you have THE unfailing truth? By saying the above, you admit that your ‘house is built on sand.’ You expect me to accept YOUR truth with no evidence?

    Deleting me from this site will make the issues and questions go away. It’s all over the Net, my friend.

    Skyrainbow really has tied you in knots, hasn’t she?. SHE’S BEING PERSECUTED? Wow! Again, review the blog. When has she ever said ANYTHING of substance?

    Your brother, Frank

  168. Freethinkerinjah says:

    Hi Frank, Thank you for your share, and you were right, I was hurting when I went through all my experiences with the organization, and the blessing was the fact I did discover a kind, gentle , God, after I “fired the false god. Also I agree with you that some elders are mislead from listening more to the magazines, GB etc., which includes rank and file JW’s, which I was guilty of also. I am grateful that I was ssociated with the JW for about 35 plus years since 1967′ which has revealed the process of denial to me. Because I understand this so well with me, I honor the process for all who are in the organization and who have left, embittered, or free.
    Whenever I can be the “comfort for such like ones, I consider this a chance to also show others there is a loving God who cares, not a god defined by man. Who resembles man’s insanity. And I still remember many fine experiences I had with the ones who really had love. I even had the privilege of once knowing a wonderful Christ-like brother that forever touched my heart with is kindness, and he had the heavenly calling.
    Any way my life is now full of kind people, and interestingly, it is so obvious that I am truly happy, there are ones who still are JW’s, and will talk to me, because they are searching for the truth.
    Many non -wittnessed will come up to me and say, we love your energy, and I give the credit to this loving God, Jehovah, higher power, Jah, spritit in the sky, whatever I feel like saying at the time.
    And conversations with God, is my favorite thing to do now, a far cry from the forced prayers with endless conditions, added to it, defined again by man. Now I have a saying- if I don’t pray, I will become prey!
    Best to you Frank on your search for truth!

  169. Frank says:

    If there is anyone here still up to the challenge – has anyone reviewed the URL I left? Any comments?


  170. Freethinkerinjah says:

    PS yes Frank I would be interested in that link about the couple you mention regarding their Judicail comm. meeting. I always appreciated reading about other’s experiences. Thanks!

  171. Frank says:

    Freethinking, Again I honour you for soothing the savage breast. The thing I can’t understand is why so many people take my questions so personally. Plankton like Amos flow by unnoticed compared to the bigger philosophical players I have encountered. This really should not be a Chinese puzzle; it should be a no-brainer, not rocket-science. Did someone leave some stuff out of the Bible? Does God want us to be saved? Then he should honour the intelligence he so ‘lovingly’ gave us.

    Actually, Free…, I’m not so much embittered or ‘searching.’ As an agnostic I am merely asking questions. What I see every night on the TV news no longer tells me that the End is coming soon, only that we are descended from lower forms of life and in need of ridding ourselves of religion, belief, and ‘faith.’ The response towards me on this blog page appears to back this up. I would have expected something better.

    Now, if I had encountered an elder with your temperament, patience, and virtue, perhaps I may have had second thoughts. Unfortunately, once their inadequacies were raised, the real human in them came out, failing each and every one of them to show me the person they claimed to be.

    Thanks again


  172. Freethinkerinjah says:

    Your welcome Frank and seems to me I am not the only night owl. I don’t know about you, but my brain tends to wind up at night. Hey, I got a question, I you so choose to answere, you said in an earlier post , you had a form of austisim, would that be ashberger’s syndrome ? I was just wondering because thats what I got, but I outgrew much of it by now. But ashberger’s,s syndrome as in my childhood, explained a lot of my social issues with people when I was younger, and I had a tough time dealing with life in general, which made it worse growing up in a very disfunctional family. My dad had it also.

  173. Frank says:

    Hi Free… It is somewhat a myth that those with Aspergers ‘outgrow’ their brain-processing challenges. The difference between the spectrum of Aspergers and the spectrum of autism is that people with Aspergers have a far-greater ability to cope with their ‘deficiencies’ because they have a greater learning capacity. Mainly this is done through the need to survive and mimicking others.

    The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society has no interest in such challenges as autism cannot be read on a body scanner, so their pathetic article designed to ‘acknowledge’ this challenge was frankly embarrassing – to them. This is what we would expect from an organisation that has not progressed beyond Old Testament morality.

    Pointing out the social side of this syndrome is exactly the point I am making. Any pretence I make towards soothing another’s ego is just that. I have become quite good diplomacy, but as you can see, I don’t suffer fools. Trying to understand emotions is still difficult, but I can spot illogic a mile off. This often upsets the unwary.

    In fact, it might be that you have developed empathy beyond your natural capabilities, Free… That shows that people with Aspergers can fit in quite well, if allowed. Unfortunately, it hasn’t done the non-Aspies much good to behave as they have on this site.


  174. Frank says:

    “danielB says:
    January 10, 2013 at 7:17 pm
    Frank : it seems to me that you are on some type of speed-drugs . You ought to come back down to reality , before you post another message here with us . You are being really wanky .”

    danielB says:
    January 10, 2013 at 7:26 pm
    Ams , I agree with your comment totally . . .

    “Frank needs to escape his drug addiction , or rethink his comments ; and then extend an appolagy to us all here for being a God-Accusing & incompassionite intruding person here , in our midst . . .”

    These comments are two examples of exactly what I mean. DanielB presumably claims to be a Christian. His spelling and grammar helps us to understand why many today equate the word ‘intelligence’ with ‘skepticism.’ Let’s analyse his words:

    (1) Daniel uses pejoratives to make his weak points rather than extend argument.

    (2) He claims I am an addict of some kind. This single-mindedness is often misunderstood in autism.

    (3) He claims my thoughts don’t relate to ‘reality.’ This finds its origins in his male pride rather than any reality he can argue for.

    (4) He uses profanity (“wanky”) and sees this as acceptable on a site where the impatient demand my removal.

    (5) While I am open about how I feel that the Old Testament God should be placed on trial for crimes against humanity, however he accuses me of being a “God-accuser,” “incompassionate” (wrong spelling, mate), and “intruding.” This is particularly interesting as his attitude denies he owes his Christian duty to 1 Peter 3:15; and while I offer arguments to back up my statements he only gets shirty (I won’t use the same word you use, Daniel) with me. Perhaps, Daniel, you need to remember that there is a thin line between righteous indignation and self-righteousness.


  175. Sister Willie says:

    Disappointed, I am disappointed in your answer to Skyrainbow in #163. The only time the word parable appears in Matthew 24 is in regard to The Parable of the Fig Tree. Check YOUR Bible.

    Nothing in my KJV Bible says that Matt. 24:45-47 is a parable. Pastor Russell was the wise and faithful servant appointed by the returned Lord and all the “meat in due season” (for his day) came from his pen (“the man with the writer’s inkhorn” in Ezek. 9), the “six slaughter weapons” being the six volumes of “Studies in the Scriptures.”

    His wife may have “leaked” the information that he or she or others thought he was “the wise and faithful servant,” for her own purposes, for she turned out to be a very vindictive person, making slanderous insinuations on the witness stand in reference to her husband, but she certainly didn’t “choose him” as the wise and faithful servant! And that was not a claim that Charles T. Russell would ever have made publicly; because, besides being wise and faithful, he was also humble.

    It is supposed that Judge Rutherford was the “evil servant” mentioned in Matt. 24:48-51, who said “in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming,” for he changed the dates and had the Lord “come” later (delay) to suit his self-appointment to the favorable position of the “wise and faithful servant” or DFS; and there was nothing discrete or faithful about it, though he did his best to make everone else SLAVES. “If the shoe fits….”

    Br. Russell published a bi-monthly newsletter which he named “Zion’s Watch Tower and Herald of Christ’s Presence.” Judge Rutherford continued to use the name “Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society” when he strong-armed the committee assigned by Br. Russell’s will and took over the International Bible Students Association in 1916. Considering that Rutherford changed major portions of what Br. Russell taught, it is not accurate to make Pastor Russell responsible for the Jehovah’s Witnesses Society, so named in 1931. Also check out the copyright page in your copy of the “New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures,” and see who it says is the Publishers. This is not a true statement–legally, maybe; actually, not on your life.

    In my 1961 copy, the Forward says in the last paragraph, “In releasing it for publication we do so with a deep sense of gratitude to the Divine Author of the Holy Scriptures, who has thus privileged us and in whose spirit we have trusted TO COOPERATE WITH US in this worthy work.” (Emphasis mine.)

    There is no “Governing Body” in Scripture.

    Sister Willie

  176. skyrainbow says:

    Frank, here is something of substance.

    The rainbow of God’s promises is always above the trials and storms of life.

    • Frank says:

      If this is what passes for substance, I would have to ask what substance it is you’re abusing.


  177. Freethinkerinjah says:

    Hi Frank,
    Yes, I think you are correct in the fact one does not out grow ashberger’s , It does appear to me that in my experience, as I got older , I picked up more “tools” in how to manage this brain wiring, and with all the other things I was handed having been so “blessed” to exist in this weird world. Existence today is for the most part for me learning to manage on a 24 hour, and the good stuff is the fact I do have some things to be grateful for on a daily basis. But, because I have such a high ideal on how life should be, I find that this system gets in my way of my high Ideals, so I try to go with the flow and and make the best of it. But overall things have gotten better, partly due to staying out of toxic relationships with people,places, things and “bad religion”!

  178. Freethinkerinjah says:

    Hi sky rainbow
    I like what you shared about Gods promises- above the trials– I will share that thought in some upcoming 12 step meetings where folks there really appreciated good stuff like that. Thanks

  179. Sister Willie says:

    Dear Frank,

    Gen 6:1-4 says, “And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them, That the sons of God [the holy angels] saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they [the ones who fell, becoming fallen angels] took them wives of all which they chose [married or not, for a human husband was no match for a materialized angel]. And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh [here is God’s warning]: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years [until the flood]. There were giants in the earth in these days [while Noah preached and he and his sons kept building the ark]; and also after that [i.e., AFTER the flood there were still other giants through the DNA of Ham’s wife], when the sons of God [angels] came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men [no females on the first level] which were of old, men of renown.”

    All of the progeny of the disobedient angels, the nephilim and their offspring, were destroyed in the flood along with all the humans, except the eight members of Noah’s family who were in the ark; however, the flood did not destroy the fallen angels who could dematerialize and return to spirit nature. The fallen angels found that they could not return to heaven, for they had become incarcerated in tartaroo for their sinful actions, between the upper and nether realms of earth’s atmosphere, for God would not allow them to return to his holy heaven where his will has never been and never will be violated.

    Thus we see that the offspring of the fallen angels and human women were all males, called nephilim (Numbers 13:33), the mighty men of old and the fodder of Greek mythology; however, when the nephilim took a woman, she could have either a male or female child. Gen. 6:9,10 reads, “These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God. And Noah begat three sons, Shem, Ham and Japheth.” Since Noah, and by extension, his wife, was perfect in his generations; i.e., the generation which he produced, we must assume that his sons were also perfect; however, using the genealogy of Noah’s son Ham, found in Deut. 19:6-20, we find that the giants showed up again beginning with Nimrod the son of Cush and a variety of others who were the sons of Canaan Gen. 10:15-18, so by extrapolation the wife of Ham carried the nephilim DNA which didn’t show up for several generations.

    These giants, like the ones before the flood, were offspring of the fallen angels and are not covered under the Ransom sacrifice of Jesus because they are not the children of Adam. It was not God’s will that these hybrid peoples should remain on the earth forever, thus God instructed that every man, woman, and child was to be exterminated to rid the human race of this genetic irregularity that entered the human family after the Flood. During the lifetime of Moses this particular genetic factor was exterminated on the east side of the Jordan River. During the warring of the Israelites during the six years that they attempted to defeat various enemies in order to conquer the Promised Land, most of the giants and their offspring were vanquished; however, a few remained until the time of David, the second king of the Israelites. David fought one of them, Goliath, and they were finally exterminated at the end of David’s reign (II Sam. 21:18-22; I Chro. 20:4-8).

    Bro. Russell “reasoned correctly that as new creatures, we are to ruthlessly destroy the spiritual nephilim in our own character, purging out from our inner being all these workings of the old nature. The Apostle Paul mentioned that we fight ‘not against flesh and blood [merely], but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places’ (Eph. 6:12). If we root out these giants to the extent that we can–if that is our real intent–God will supplement the balance and bring us forth to victory. On the other hand, if we allow little acts of disobedience, they will multiply and grow and take over the new creature. However, this spiritual lesson, although vital to the new creature, is secondary. The primary lesson is literal, and the literal application gives a reason for the extermination of these peoples without any thought of mercy. Even babies and children had to be killed in order to eliminate the genetic illegitimate mixture that continued after the Flood. In His own way, God slowly accomplished the elimination.

    “A climate of doubt is beneficial if we are properly exercised, for faith grows in opposition to an atmosphere of doubt. If not confronted by doubt, we would have no exercise of trying to do what God wants us to do and of developing spiritual muscles of character development. To one class, doubt becomes a stepping-stone because faith surmounts that doubt. However, to another class, doubt causes their downfall because they do not have the necessary depth of consecration Thus doubt has a separating influence.”

    Obviously, I did not come up with this knowledge without a lot of help from my elders. The one I was quoting here is deceased. Hopefully this will answer one of your questions, Frank.

    Sister Willie

  180. danielB says:

    Your comments toward me are very weak Frank . Will you please define your statements more clearly ? Define ” pejoratives” and “autism” at least , for us here . Your heady approach toward argumentation is difficult to understand . Exactly What are you saying ? ? ?

  181. Frank says:

    Hi Free… Of course, organised religion is by its very nature toxic because as the population grows in that organisation, more and more control mechanisms must be put in place. This becomes harder and harder for people with Asperger’s to cope. Their nature is not to socialise as this demands far far more from an Aspie as it would from those not affected. Eventually, individuals, unless one is well-connected socially, become non-entities and their usefulness to the organisation becomes more and more based on what that individual can do for the organisation and its growth.

    Aspies’ fear to get ‘involved’ derives itself, not from a ‘social-phobia,’ but rather from not possessing the natural social-tools that most take for granted. Not being able to ‘read’ situations, how to respond appropriately, constantly saying the wrong thing, and upsetting people, causes shame, then self-loathing, and this is where the fear comes from. They naturally wish to have friends too. The WTBTS attempted to solve these life-long barriers on three pages of the Awake. It was pitiful and probably set JW Aspies back decades, making them feel like they are closer to Down-Syndrome sufferers or manic-depressives, but that’s what you get if you crave a quick solution to the seemingly insoluble.

    This more-often-than-not leaves us out in the cold as often Aspies need support mechanisms constantly merely to function in a social-based organisation. When this fails to appear (congregational support)those with the syndrome often fall by the wayside. This, of course, depends on where one is on the Asperger’s spectrum. As one would expect, without accurate knowledge (don’t bother reading the rubbish spouted in the Awake! magazine) most members of this elitist organisation would continue to treat the “stranger” ones (not open to natural socialising) as outsiders. Even when informed, our attempts to educate them is usually greeted with a painted-on smile and little else.

    The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society must believe that all sinners exist on a level playing field for it to function and cannot handle the bumps and undulations that science is revealing now. I suppose we should think ourselves fortunate that we haven’t been burned at the stake as a work of the Devil.

    Have you noticed how dead commenting has gone on this site since we introduced the subject of Asperger’s, Free….? This should adequately prove my point. They just don’t know what to do and are probably not that interested. Sad, really.

    I’m glad you’ve learned to cope successfully. Maybe the AS-bird has only lightly brushed you, or perhaps you are one of the lucky ones who have had supportive parents and others who have had genuine regard for you.


  182. Freethinkerinjah says:

    Hi Frank
    Well you nailed a lot of what aspires go thought, as least I have had those “social challenges” as you pointed out. Matter of fact that’s the first time I heard any one mention these challenges in the arena of the organization. That’s validating . I did not have supporting parents or any support from anyone in the OR,
    Even thought I did mention it to the elders later in years when I found out more about it.
    And to add to that, I will never forget the sad situation when I was introduced to a young boy who was a aspie, and even thought he had many siblings and both parents, he was often isolated emotional, and hardly any one would interact with him. Now this is what I noticed at the meetings, so I don’t know what went on in his daily life, but I saw the isolation in his face and would always try to talk to him .
    Also I am unaware of any articles about aspires, but the usual tract record of info in the magazines usually did not address the deeper aspects of how a brain can be wired, so I usually kept researching till I got an
    answer, which that was ok with me, because I happen to be of the studious varitity.
    Any way I did feel the pressure of being in a cookie cutter, blanket, one size fits all mentality, and eventually because of the starvation of my spritiual soul within the organization, I died in it and toward it.
    Thank God, I was resurrected to a special support fellowship of several 12 step programs, a wonderful sponsor, a case worker , a lot of counseling for abused children and women of domestic violence,and wonderful caring samaratins that are now in my life, and a sustainable loving, prayerful relationship with Jehovah, I have won the spritiual lottery. Also I have boundaries in place and know how to reconize all forms of control, manipulation, mind control spritiual abuse and just plain old bad energy. I know how to cut the crap out of my life, all because of all the help and support and love I have gotten, after getting out of “Dodge”.
    So again this is my experience, strength and hope, and and maybe it will help another in some small way.

  183. Frank says:

    Hi Free… It would be easy to forgive our ‘brothers and sisters’ for their ignorance of our challenges, but I maintain that science came about despite Christianity, not because of it. The unblessed ignorance was called the Dark Ages – then came the rebels and the Age of Enlightenment.

    It’s almost ironic that the WTBTS is so single-minded (obsessed in autism terms)in keeping the blinkers on. One would think they would understand, but unfortunately, the real challenges suffered by others in their midst are nothing more than a scratched-in footnote at the bottom of their glorious beliefs. They eventually get to us, but not without someone with a sledge-hammer to make the point. Even then, they have to fit us in clumsily with their agenda. It hasn’t worked and it shows.

    I may have missed it, but were you officially diagnosed with Asperger’s Syndrome?

    Were your parents Jehovah’s Witnesses?

    To clarify, was the boy you mention in paragraph 2 a JW, and did he personally have to contend with loneliness at the meetings?

    The reference for the article is September 2008, pp. 22 – 24 (“Meeting the Challenges of Asperger’s Syndrome”). Trust me, it was easy to miss it. Please let me what you think of it.

    It is noteworthy you mention brain-wiring. Shunning the ignorance of the organised religious mind, America is streets-ahead of giving dignity and even more importantly, purpose, to those with autism and Asperger’s by placing them in jobs where they thrive, such as the computer industry and similar. It is also believed many famous and creative character had Asperger’s – Einstein, Mozart, Sir Isaac Newton, and on and on. They may have given more to the world than the entire non-Aspie world.

    Sadly, Hollywood films tend to pick the most perseverative and eccentric types to represent the SPECTRUM because such characters are entertaining. One film I saw recently I had to turn off because I couldn’t bear to watch it as it was only slightly worse than the Awake! article.

    I love your metaphors; “Cookie-cutter,” “one-size-fits-all.” I’m not surprised you “died” if you were being “starved.”

    Your next lines are so well put together. You make not attempt to patronise and express yourself well. This other lot could learn from your genuine empathy (harder for Aspies to develop than non-AS). I wonder if Skyrainbow has something to say.

    It is my sincere hope that the WTBTS is cut to the heart about its chosen ignorance about those deserving in their midst, the same way they must be made to see that their callous judicial system has cost many a child its right to dignity (Candace Conti, for instance).

    Many are dying within their ranks.

    Fare well, my friend.


  184. skyrainbow says:

    There was as a man that happened to find a cocoon. He kept it around to see what would happen. Finally the day came for the butterfly to come out. As he watched it wiggle and struggle he waited. First one hour, then two, then three hours, finally he got tired of waiting and decided to help the butterfly. But the butterfly never flew because it needed to build up the muscles in its wings and the way it would have accomplished this would have been by working its way out of the cocoon.
    There are certain struggles we have to go through in life and Jehovah allows us to struggle at times. Sometimes it takes a lot of endurance and we need PEP -persistance, endurance, and perseverance. But don’t forget Jesus said: “But he that has endured to the end is the one that will be saved” Matthew 24:13

    • Amos says:

      There was as a man that happened to find a cocoon.He kept it around to see what would happen.Finally the day came for the butterfly to come out.As he watched it wiggle and struggle he waited.First one hour, then two, then three hours, finally he got tired of waiting and decided to help the butterfly.But the butterfly never flew because it needed to build up the muscles in its wings and the way it would have accomplished this would have been by working its way out of the cocoon.
      There are certain struggles we have to go through in life and Jehovah allows us to struggle at times.Sometimes it takes a lot of endurance and we need PEP -persistance, endurance, and perseverance. But don’t forget Jesus said: “But he that has endured to the end is the one that will be saved” Matthew 24:13

      This is a rather good analogy Sky.
      This is exactly my own experience. My “wings” were constantly suppressed while I remained inside the “org”. When I decided not to return to the WTS, my wings gradually started to expand, very gradually at first. The more freedom in Christ that I have been very blessed to experience in the last four years, has led me into many truths that I believe have been deliberately & pre-meditatively hidden, suppressed and at times even been taught against.
      I personally know several brothers including those who were once elders, who are now dfd for bringing the truth to the notice of the GB. This is also the reason why very faithful brothers such as Raymond Franz & and; Ed Dunlap were dissed. The WTS even change the rules if they decide to diss some of these faithful servants of our Lord & Master Jesus Christ.
      What makes us different? Instead of being “faithful” to a man-made organization, ones like brother Raymond, were in fact “faithful to Christ!”
      As history shows, this doesn’t suit the GB as they have set themselves up in place of Christ!
      I hope this reply to you helps to guide you in your quest for truth.

  185. skyrainbow says:

    One day a young boy was riding in a horse drawn buggy down a country lane with his father. The father turns to the little boy and says watch this as he takes the buggy whip and gently flicks a bee of a flower. Truly amazed, the little boy says, “May I try it father?” The father hands the little boy the buggy whip and they start looking on either side of the road at the flowers for a bee. All of a sudden the little boy happens to look up and see a beehive with swarms of bees. Raising the whip, he prepares to strike. Just in time the father looks up and sees what his young son is about to do. He quickly takes the whip and says, “No son, we don’t bother with those, they are organised”. The moral of the story is: When we leave Jehovah’s organisation, we are like that little bee sitting all alone on a flower that Satan can come alone and flick off. If we stay safe, within Jehovah’s organisation, Satan is less likely to try to pick us off, because he realizes that like that beehive, we are organised.

  186. Ruth says:

    Sky i like the way you are trying to get us back.
    Please read this article a bro wrote his father is and elder abd this young man is a very good brother a real lover of God.

    What is the Church?
    Dear brothers and sisters,
    For many, a church is a building where Christians go to worship. Almost every division of the Body of Christ, such as Catholics, Protestants, Baptists and Jehovah’s Witnesses to name a few, separate their worship from their daily lives by thinking the church – or in the instance of Jehovah’s Witnesses the Kingdom Hall – is where Christians go to worship God. When it’s time to “go to church” or “the Kingdom Hall”, they get ready by dressing up and making sure they look their best. Some pack their bags with a bible and literature; most just take themselves and their families.
    When they arrive at the “church” they go inside and sit down facing the pulpit or, in the instance of the Kingdom Hall, the stage. When it’s time to stand and singing praises, everyone stands. When it’s time to pray, everyone closes their eyes and listens to the prayer. When they sit, they all sit quietly to listen to the Sermon or “public talk”. Afterward, the congregation spends a little time talking to each other; usually small talk. And finally when it’s time to go they all head back to their cars and drive home. With their worship over, they dress down in more casual attire and go back to life. It’s all very segmented, all very neat, all very routine. But is this the church Christ established in the first century?

    To answer this we need to understand the word “church”. “Church” is an English word for the original Greek word “kuriakos” which means “of the Lord, special to the Lord.” (Strong’s #2960) But to mix things up a little, the translators also thought it would be reasonable to substitute the word “ekklésia“, which means “an assembly, congregation, church; the Church, the whole body of Christian believers” (Strong’s #1577) with the word “church”. Helps™ Word Studies adds:
    1577 ekklesía(from 1537 /ek, “out from and to” and 2564 /kaléo, “to call”) – properly, people called out from the world and to God, the outcome being the Church (the mystical body of Christ) – i.e. the universal (total) body of believers whom God calls out from the world and into His eternal kingdom.
    [The English word “church” comes from the Greek word kyriakos, “belonging to the Lord” (kyrios). 1577 /ekklesía (“church”) is the root of the terms “ecclesiology” and “ecclesiastical.”]

    So with two distinct words summed up in one, that being “church”, the true meaning became lost. It wouldn’t be long before the “called out” started to be the “called to”, with the ringing of church bells across the lands of Christendom summoning the congregation to worship. And so, in jus
    t a few hundred years after the death of Christ, the church became the place to go and worship.

    The building underpinned the religious organization that grew out of the early congregation and became a physical asset that enabled the religious order to entrench itself in society. It became the focal point, rather than God and Christ. Money collected would be spent on expensive embellishments of gold and wood. Construction was prolific for centuries, with bigger and grander churches competing with each other in a sinful act of covetousness and idolatry. All the while, the true ekklesia (Body of Christ) grew weak and deathly pallid while the hierarchy grew fat, from domineering the flock. All this for power and wealth.

    We are the “church”, a living “temple of God” (2 Cor 6:10; 1 Tim 3:15), not an inanimate building that has a legal title over it and belongs on the asset register of an organization. If we are the “called out” then we don’t go somewhere to worship once or twice a week, putting on our best suite or dress, going to our place of worship just so that we can act out our faith while we are there. To then return home, dress into something more comfortable and slip back into our everyday existence – until next time. No, if we are a part of the temple of worship, then every moment of the day we are worshiping God. As Jesus said, “If you were of the world, the world would love you as its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.”

    (John 15:19) Our lives are not segmented when it comes to our worship, we can’t dress up and drive to it, it exists with us 24/7 because we are the building. As the Apostle Peter so wonderfully summed it up, “But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.” (1 Pt 2:9)
    Does this mean we don’t come together in worship? Of course not, there is every good reason to come together in fellowship. Hebrews 10:24-25 says, “And let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works, not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near.” It is by coming together that we build each other up, with words of encouragement. In the first century this was done in homes, caves and public buildings. They didn’t buy or build “fit for purpose” meeting places like we see today, fitted out for comfort and convenience.

    They didn’t waste time or money pursuing building and town plans and they certainly weren’t interested in having “assets”, other than those stored up in heaven.
    I’d like to conclude with this very important scripture:
    “For just as the body is one and has many members, and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ. For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body— Jews or Greeks, slavesor free—and all were made to drink of one Spirit.
    For the body does not consist of one member but of many. If the foot should say, “Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body,” that would not make it any less a part of the body. And if the ear should say, “Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body,” that would not make it any less a part of the body. If the whole body were an eye, where would be the sense of hearing? If the whole body were an ear, where would be the sense of smell? But as it is, God arranged the members in the body, each one of them, as he chose. If all were a single member, where would the body be? As it is, there are many parts, yet one body.

    The eye cannot say to the hand, “I have no need of you,” nor again the head to the feet, “I have no need of you.” On the contrary, the parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable, and on those parts of the body that we think less honorable we bestow the greater honor, and our unpresentable parts are treated with greater modesty, which our more presentable parts do not require. But God has so composed the body, giving greater honor to the part that lacked it, that there may be no division in the body, but that the members may have the same care for one another. If one member suffers, all suffer together; if one member is honored, all rejoice together.
    Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it.” – 1 Cor 12:12-28

    Your brother in Christ
    Bro. Ed

  187. Frank says:

    Skyrainbow, your childish homilies again fail to impress. As you will find at –


    – many caterpillars don’t make it to cocoon state. Study this case of nature VERY CAREFULLY. I presume the parasitic wasp and its larvae are part of you creator’s environment. If so, what is he teaching us here – that mercy and justice are NOT related to salvation? Evolution is cruel and we are lucky to be at the top of the food chain; and that’s all.

    What gets me about you, Skyrainbow, is you think it’s so simple. Obviously you are an expert on Asperger’s or you wouldn’t be so arrogant as to give the impression you understand its challenges. So you can take back your Incy Wincy fluffy-duck propaganda tales and teach them to unsuspecting 5-year-olds.

    The Christian congregation was set up as a haven, not a hellfire. It is science that has raised this ill-fitting spectre and the organisation is not, and probably will never be, ready to cope the reality many will face because of its chosen ignorance.

    You’re right, though, about the WTBTS being like beehive. Just like bees, the drones irrationally obey the bidding of the queen.
    Try reasoning with a bee.


  188. Freethinkerinjah says:

    Hi Frank
    Thanks for the feed back. You got a way with words, and I actually think you got great writing skills, which if you haven’t already you could right a book.
    God knows with all the writing I have done I could have easily written one .
    Anyway, to address your questions.
    1 was I officially diagnosed…? Of course not, because as any self-respecting aspire knows, it’s my diagnoses that’s official, right? (that’s actually a aspie trait, self-inventory, self-study, self-improvement sef-help, etc. etc.
    The rest of the story is that years ago I accidently stumbled on a book about “aspires” and it made a ton of sense, about my whole life, and the information was life-changing for me in many ways.
    2 The young boy who was an aspire, was son to JW. The few times I noticed him , He seemed in his own world, and there was not much of other kids interacting with him, partly because there wasn’t hardly any kids his age. To me he looked left out, but then again as an aspire, I could have misread his body language.
    And in respects to your hope that the WTBTS would have a change of heart, that was my hope too, so much it hurt, but eventually I was able to let go the hurt similar to a lover gone south for another, which left me free to find the real thing. God. Which I think was the lesson for me.. Anyway I am living happily ever after!
    Cheers and live well my friend!

  189. skyrainbow says:

    Frank, why are you always so negative and denigratory about my postings? I think your greatest problem is not Asperger but your pride. That must be the real reason you left Jehovah’s people. Psalm 59:12 speaks about people like you. Frank, you can do something about your problem by considering the statement in Proverbs 3:5-7:”Trust in Jehovah with all your heart and DO NOT LEAN UPON YOUR OWN UNDERSTANDING. In all your ways take notice of him, and he himself will make your paths straight. DO NOT BECOME WISE IN YOUR OWN EYES. Fear Jehovah and turn away from bad.
    Amos, this is also good counsel for you.

    • JJ says:

      Great scripture Skyrainbow. One that we ALL can apply to ourselves. Jesus’ great sermon comes to mind when said we should worry about the splinter(s) in our own eyes and not everyone else.

      Keep searching for truth and doing honest research and God will bless your Christian journey!

      In Christ,
      Eric, aka JJ

  190. Frank says:

    Hi Free…, I’m sort of not surprised you haven’t got an official diagnosis. So much can be done when knows for sure. If you attend a support group, interestingly, most who attend have also not been diagnosed. This is a pity. One thing stands out, there were those profoundly-affected to those who one would not even know they had the syndrome in attendance.

    The self-analysis often becomes self-incrimination, followed by self-loathing for having ‘failed’ to understand even basic social cues. I would suggest you work towards and official reading of your symptoms. What’s the worse that can happen?

    The young boy you speak of was ‘in his own world.’ The Scriptures admonish the stronger to help the weak. Paul spoke of ‘widening out.’ Sadly, few there are who are willing to extend themselves within the congregations. This is why I believe Christianity exists more or less in name only. A few will help but that’s because they are nice people. I don’t think extraordinary claims about oneself makes the person what they would like to be – effort does. “By their fruits you will know them.”

    They say charity begins at home. If JWs really want to do some good they should start right there with the Aspie sitting next to them. Did you check out the Awake! article? When you’ve finished laughing let me know what you think.

    As to the Organisation, bees is what it is. At least no one could accuse a bee of being self-centred. The trouble is their mission should start with their own kin.


  191. Frank says:

    Now I really am wondering whether you are mentally-challenged in some way, Skyrainbow. Then I find myself remembering how the Watchtower and Awake! teaches its willing victims to apply double-standards. You really do think that the Bible is your personal bludgeon, don’t you.

    I ‘trusted in Jehovah’ for all my life and found that ‘his’ organisation was set up merely to…well, let me just say that someone calls it the Borganisation (Star Trek). I think I agree with him. Some choose not to be assimilated.

    And needless to say, I didn’t ‘leave Jehovah’s people.’ If they can’t even justify 1914 chronologically, then why should I stick with them? The premise is false.

    Your ever-loving brother, Frank

  192. Frank says:

    Hi JJ. Thanks for your patience on this subject. It feels good to talk about these things. Thanks also for allowing Skyrainbow to rant. It’s therapy that cannot be bought.

  193. Ruth says:

    This page is the front door of wjstruggle. Wonder how many sheep have visited and had to walk away.

    • JJ says:

      Sister Ruth

      I truly feel that the Holy Spirit will not abandon any that are thirsting for knowledge. Those that are waking up to TTATT will come here and to other beneficial websites and forums, and they will “seek for it [true knowledge] as for hid treasure.” This is a part of my daily prayers and I know that Father hears all prayers that are in line with his will!

      Frank has a right to speak and it is apparent that he is an intelligent, questioning person. I don’t agree with everything he says/believes, but that is okay with me. It’s okay to have differing voices and it’s okay to hear a person out if they are respectful of others. The Watchtower does not allow other voices; it stifles freedom of thought and expression. I cannot and will not ever do that. If indeed he has Asperbergers or some other health challenge, then that would mean we would want to give him all the more benefit of the doubt and show grace and kindness towards him. This is of course simply my opinion and Christian conscience speaking, and I can do no other than to express it.

      Oftentimes a person needs to “get it out of their system” and then healing can begin. As long as a commenter does not use foul language or call names and can show respect to others then they are free to comment here on JWS. One thing I would ask of Frank (and any other commenter) is that they try to speak of things relevant to the actual article they are commenting inside of. The topic was/is Questions About Our Baptism. If someone wants to bring up an entirely new topic, i.e., the perceived cruelties of Yahweh from the Old Testament, then the best place to bring that up would be on the Forum.

      I have considered, and have been advised by some, to simply close commenting on an article when the feedback veers so far off topic. Perhaps that is what I will need to do in the future. I’m not sure I want to do that and am pondering it ATM. Thank you dear Sister Ruth for your continuing wisdom and freeness of speech here, it is most welcome and needed.

      In Christ,
      Eric aka JJ

      • Frank says:

        JJ, thank you for the balance in your statement. When I first heard you judicial out-pourings, I could see you are a deep well of a person. I think I probably wasn’t the only one who appreciated your keeping control of the ordeal you faced. You admitted your fear and trepidation, and then opened up like Stephen in Acts. Well done!

        Freethinking… has apparently found peace in the acceptance of her challenges. Aspergers (named after Hans Asperger, a Swiss doctor), is not a ‘health challenge’ and there is no question of ‘if’ as far as I’m concerned. You, however, number among the many sceptics who likewise appear to make a judgement merely with the eyes (in your case, of my writing). I mean no disrespect with this, only that your reaction is common and human, but of little help to us. This is where the challenge starts – convincing others that they need to give support for us to thrive, even survive.

        I realised that wasn’t going to happen so I did it myself by reading up on it and receiving a diagnosis from an autism specialist. Any subsequent personal explanations usually met with glazed-over eyes and secret yawns. Actually, ultimately I don’t care whether anyone believes me or not; I look after myself (oops, there’s that meaning again) now. All I want is for Christian apologists to live up to their name and stop the emotional BS and provide answers I can understand.

        Either God exists or he doesn’t – What’s the EVIDENCE?

        Either God is a jealous tribal god or he is the universal loving creator – Where’s the EVIDENCE?

        Either there is a Christian ‘new personality’ or there is not – where’s the EVIDENCE?

        Etc, etc.

        Yes, you are right to close this blog off, but please remember there is no going back when you know of a large section of humanity who could benefit from expressing themselves on a blog like this that deals with the subject of autism and Aspergers. There is a lot to learn and the Internet is still largely a blank space.

        Oh, and keep Skyrainbow on. Her scientific naivety makes a joyful target.


  194. skyrainbow says:

    Frank, yes, I am ‘childish’ but you know what Jesus said about children. Yes, my ‘think it’s so simple’ but you know what Jesus said in Matthew 5:3. You are also ‘wondering wether I am mentally-challenged in some way’. I know you get nervous when I use Gods Word but Jesus said in Matthew 5:11,12:”HAPPY are you when people REPROACH you and persecute you and LYINGLY say every sort of wicked thing against you for my sake. REJOICE and leap for joy…” Thank you Frank, you made my day!
    PS I suppose you don’t like honey.

  195. Freethinkerinjah says:

    Hi Frank
    Thanks for your share, I can always find something of which you or others write about as a “thought triggers”,
    In which to engage my mind toward a more broader understanding of mere mortals, which, besides God, is one of my favorite subjects.
    And this is one subject in which I never find boring, but peppered with fellow feeling and concern and many times, humerous. I get to see myself in every one, so I appreciate everyone’s input.

  196. Freethinkerinjah says:

    Hi JJ
    Thank you for some very wise guidelines regarding posting on this site. I, for one can get off on a tangent, and I think it keeps things simple when one stays within a certain subject, that makes sense to me. I also appreciate the freedom of speech, and reconize many hurting souls needing to vent, but see the benefit of all sharing with the utmost respect for all, as this is how Jesus treated his fellow humans. Thank you for the reminders, your words are always so carefully chosen, you set a healthy example of communication for me.

  197. Frank says:

    Dear Sister Skyrainbow, I bathe in the gushing flow of your self-righteousness. Your holy waters, sadly, have not washed me clean.

    You are a shining example of those who have been infected with religious Stockholm Syndrome. Yes, and some others may side with you, likewise believing that I am ‘persecuting you.’ This is the illusion of the believing mind, not a reality that science can conceive.

    We live in a world that is wise to mind that needs to hope, love, hunger, and worship. Science can match any religious paradigm and can even reproduce the “religious experience” in the laboratory; it has been done!. Science knows the chemical that humanity calls “love.” Michael Shermer, an American brain-expert and open-minded sceptic, explains everything in his book, “The Believing Brain.” For a ‘second witness,’ try Sam Harris, and atheist Brain-expert.

    Oh yes, I would like someone to show me the errors of my way. But remember this: an atheist (not what I am yet) is not someone who ‘refuses’ to believe in God, but rather is someone who sees no reason to believe that God exists according to the evidence. Therefore, if you persist in making extraordinary claims, YOU must have extraordinary evidence. The oweness is on YOU, not me! Fluffy ducks, butterflies and bees just won’t do it.

    Romans 1:20 suggests that God’s qualities are evident from creation onward. Tell me then why 99.99% of prehistory’s life-forms, according to the fossil record, has been wiped out by – yes, NATURE! The Burgess Shale in Canada exposes thousands upon thousands of species we didn’t even know about – one of which, with all the features, as having been humanity’s ancestor! Why don’t humans deify that?

    Why, if the Bible assures us that the Earth will exist forever, do we observe supernovae of stars in the night sky? Our sun (a star), likewise will disappear in a few billion years. Why? Because nothing, other than energy, CAN exist forever – it is simply not a property of the universe. Yes, there is birth – but there is ALSO DESTRUCTION! Oh, and before you suggest it, one jittery Christian told me that it was the universe and the earth that “sinned” and that God will fix it, so I shouldn’t bother with that one.

    Skyrainbow, you pick your metaphors like you cherry-pick your scriptures. Come into the 21st century and tackle the issues on a scientific basis and conquer my foolishness. I invite it.


  198. Frank says:

    Ruth, perhaps emotional-blackmail is not the way to get your way. Do you have anything else?


  199. Ruth says:

    When your children grows up would you like any one, especially xwitnesses men to speak about them like this? Your daughter in particular? if you have one?
    Quote Frank about Sky.

    Frank says:
    January 10, 2013 at 1:13 pm

    DanielB, I think Skyrainbow thinks of her little forays here as phone sex.

    Please dont tell me Frank needs to let off stream. He needs to face all us sistrs face to face and dare say these dreadful things to us. Even if we are xwitnessess or witnessess. Would our Lord tolerate this very bad behaviour? Why then JJ do you toerate this?

    He would not want to face me and say that. l would slap his face.
    He is rude, that has nothing to do with any sickness.
    l support brother Amos this man is out of order and order needs to be taken JJ

    Out of the mouth the heart speaks! He definately needs a clip over the ear. What next if you give him another inch.

    • Frank says:

      The dying-duck routine doesn’t suit you, Ruth. My only meaning from my well-chosen metaphor was that I believe Skyrainbow gets a cheap thrill from her postings here, hence ‘bell-ringing and running away.’ Was it that hard to understand?

      Unlike you, JJ shows patience and reasonable tolerance. I also would like to think that he believes there is hope even for me. He doesn’t cut and run when someone stamps him on the foot.

      I wouldn’t want to ‘face you’ because a meeting of our minds would not accomplish anything. You’ve already made yours up and you have nothing more to offer – that’s clear.

      You’re right, my ‘rudeness has nothing to do with any sickness.’ The reason is that I’m not sick, or mentally-ill. My ‘rudeness’ is simply your interpretation (from easily attained emotional wounds) of my reaction to the failure of Christianity to fulfil its claim to know the ‘answers,’ to the basis of ‘hope’ as it extraordinarily claims. This is not rudeness, it’s frustration. People like you do not help.

      Here’s how it works: I ask questions hoping for an answer. People like you cannot or will not answer them (no one has yet admitted they can’t defend God’s actions). ‘Christians’ then do the ‘I’m being persecuted’ thing, and this causes frustration because of the unwillingness to co-operate with their own apologist leanings. Get it?

      Christians claim the Bible has ‘satisfying answers’ but cannot supply them or are unwilling because of some sentimental feelings towards the one they perceive wrote the book that is short on explanations. Tell me if I’m going too fast.


  200. Ruth says:

    Why cant we edit anymore. l try but it does not work. l wanted to delete my anger.
    and spelling mistakes that l cannot see at the moment l write. only after because the print is so small for me.

  201. JimmyG says:

    Ruth. Please be consistent. Why are you not as incensed at DanielB saying Frank is being ‘wanky’?

    What you and others are suggesting is a type of disfellowshipping of Frank from this site, with you and these others self appointing yourselves on to the ‘judicial committee’.

    Personally, I have had enough of this type of approach from the WT. Surely we don’t need it here too.

  202. Frank says:

    Nice to hear from you again, JimmyG. The point here is that I treat others like they treat me. As I said, I mimic the reactions of others – it’s not a sickness, it’s a gift.

    As I have said, raising the inadequacies of others reveals the true Christian in them, if such a thing as the ‘new personality’ is not merely a myth. The reaction is nearly always the same. Perhaps it’s a good thing people can’t delete their anger. This may be the mirror they need for them to move towards the goal they claim they’ve attained.


    • Amos says:

      Brother JJ,

      The insulting language from FRANK has gone on long enough.

      I totally agree with sister Ruth.

      I ask you;

      1 Would our Lord & Master Jesus Christ speak in this way?

      2 Would our Lord Jesus also use the terms “wanky” or “phone sex”?

      I’m certain that your answer can only be a resounding “NO”!

      Enough, is enough, is enough.

      Please fix this problem, otherwise this site will lose the true reason for it’s existence.
      Your tolerance is to be commended, BUT there comes a time when you must develop enough backbone to stop insults from continuing because one or two people don’t get the response they are seeking from others.

      Like I said, enough, is enough, is enough!!!

  203. JJ says:

    Comments on this thread are now closed- I ask that all try and limit their comments to the subject of the article.

    Thanks, Admin

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