I have been thinking about partaking at the up coming memorial of Christ death for quite some time. For the last two years it has been a goal of mine. when I do I will do this in private. I have second thoughts only because sometimes I feel unworthy. However I do believe that partaking is a Christian requirement for all who profess to be Christian. I have accepted Christ as my savior in my heart. Another huge issue with me is taking wine. I am a recovering alcoholic and I have made a commitment to not touch a drop. I just found a great article online regarding this very subject and I tend to agree with it. I would love to get your opinion on my situation and what you think about this article: http://www.yrm.org/wine_or_grape_juice.htm

Thank you,
Your brother,
Greybeard

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16 Comments on Wine or Grape Juice?

  1. andrew says:

    Hi GB
    I read the article and I can’t say I strongly disagree with anything it says, but my personal preference for me would be to use wine, and that is what I’ll be using.
    However I can certainly see your point of view, especially considering that you are a recovering alcoholic. I’m sure Jesus won’t reject an honest partaking of grape juice or wine if it is done with the right spirit.

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    • greybeard says:

      Thank you Andrew,

      I thought it was interesting that the word “wine” was not used by Jesus. I always thought it was. Also the point about “yeast, a leavening agent” is used in making wine. There are many views on this. I think, as you said, the spirit it is done with, is most important to Christ. I talked a little about this to my wife today. She said she wants to live with me forever. I said I feel the same but Jesus is more important and who knows what his will is for both of us. I leave all that up to him and his Father.

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      • scott perkins says:

        Grey beard, There is no salvation in wine. Jesus said it your hand makes you sin, cut it off. If wine makes you sin then cut it off. Jesus knows all things, grape juice is fine. When someone says you need to drink wine they are being legalistic. It is The Blood of Christ that saves us, not wine. Your making the right decision. God bless.

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        • greybeard says:

          Thanks Scott,

          That is a really good point. Jesus did say to cut off what makes you stumble. I never thought about that applying to this question but it does.

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          • DanielB says:

            Yes, we were taught that real red unfortified wine was necessary, or our celebration would not be valid. However, we would swallow anything from them, (except grape juice :)

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  2. Papabear says:

    The article brought out some very interesting points. I agree also with Andrew. If, with study, you feel this is appropriate in Jesus eyes to use grape juice, then do so.

    Your brother,
    Papabear

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  3. JJ says:

    An eye opening reference Greybeard- thank you. The celebrating and remembering of what Jesus did for us is key. Jehovah looks upon the sacrifices we make, and our effort and our sincerity are what counts the most.

    Memorial season has always been an emotional time for me- something that I didn’t take lightly. I say this not to infer that others take it lightly- I don’t mean that, but just to emphasize the point I want to make, which is this:

    This may be the most meaningful memorial year I have ever had in my life. For the first time in the many many years that I have been aware of Christ’s sacrifice, this year is the only one that feel like I truly understand it. Honestly, even the three times that I gave the memorial talk at the Kingdom Hall, I didn’t “get it”. Not until this year.

    What does that mean? How could that happen? I don’t know how it is possible but it is. I thank Jehovah and I thank Jesus for being so patient with me, and with all of us. We are good for nothing slaves and we have been so blessed. I pray this will be a memorable memorial day for all of us, and that we can all strive to be worthy of our savior, Christ.

    BTW, here is Brother Werner’s commentary on 1 Corinthians 11. If you get the chance, notice his points on verse 28 especially:

    http://wernerbiblecommentary.org/?q=node/484

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  4. DanielB says:

    Here is the paragraph from the article you refer to here JJ.

    “In view of the seriousness of what had taken place among the Corinthians, they needed to “test,” “prove” or “examine” themselves, determining whether they were in the right condition to partake of the unleavened bread and the wine. The implication is that, if they recognized the error of their ways, they needed to repent and change, asking fellow believers against whom they had sinned for forgiveness. After the self-testing and making sure that they could partake of the Lord’s supper in a worthy manner would it be right for them to “eat of the bread and drink from the cup.” (11:28)”

    Perhaps you are referring to the question of being worthy. This is indeed a good point to consider and examine about ourselves. And I see this as being between myself and the Master Jesus, and our Papa (Abba).

    I too had given memorial talks, and saw that arrangements were taken care of. And I also knew that there were many in attendance who were in question over whether or not I could be a young genuine man with heavenly calling. So I learned to just keep the self examination between Jehovah and myself, because that is what matters in our communion.

    I hope that anyone here will relax and not be going by the opinions of men who have little understanding.

    Enjoy!

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  5. Amos says:

    Greybeard,
    I believe that either grape juice or alcoholic wine would be acceptable for any of us to use, depending on our circumstances.

    If our Lord has laid down His life for His brothers, I’m sure He would understand the needs of each of us, & would not expect or require any of us to do anything that would jeopardize our christian walk.

    Your Brother in Christ,
    Amos

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  6. greybeard says:

    Thank you everyone for your comments. JJ, the memorial has always been a emotional time for me as well. I never understood why we passed the bread and wine to all that didn’t take it. Wouldn’t raising our hands to partake make more sense? Or getting up and walking to the table? The way JW’s do it looks like a ritualistic rejection to me. That’s my opinion on the mater. DanielB you are right, the opinion of others is not what matters when deciding how we personally feel. Lord knows JW’s question in their hearts those that partake but they are told not to. I do value others opinions but they cannot read my heart.

    Your brother,
    Greybeard

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    • DanielB says:

      Dear GreyBearded brother,

      You know how that Jehovah’s Witnesses are in suspense over all of the 144,000 being sealed so that they can get on with the new order. So, they secretly or openly anticipate more of us showing up within their numbers. It is a bit awkward at a kingdom hall for the memorial, since there will be some false doctrine expounded on, especially after the celebration / (“observance”), but since we understand, that can be overlooked, for those who meet to commune with Christ.

      It is though, an oportunity to associate with real brothers or sisters with the hope, if any are there. Bare minimum, we can have good eye contact, and a “hello sister / brother”.

      Then there is always home, if this is an additional option or just altogether better. But it is special to be with real brothers when possible to share in the covenant that was instituted.

      Again, Enjoy!

      brother dan

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  7. David Paul says:

    Dear brothers, sisters, and friends

    Sorry if this comment seems a bit after the event.

    The REALITY, namely spiritually eating from the “tree of life” Jesus, on a daily basis, seems to be of greatest importance. It could be said that this is done by spiritually eating all the many ingredients of the full (not truncated) gospel message (about Jesus and about the full Kingdom).

    Exactly how, why, where, when, and what is involved as far as SYMBOLISING this reality communally (in front of others, even family) somehow seems somewhat less important (not forgetting Matt 10:32-33). In fact pointless if we are not eating from the “tree of life”. In fact blasphemously and treacherously dishonest if we are Pharisaically rejecting the “tree of life”. Rejection may take the form of denying his mediatorship, denying his all sufficiency, a truncated gospel, elitist clergy-laity contrivances and structures, and so on…

    Two interesting reads are: http://www.thejesusmanifesto.c.....stoCh8.pdf (The Forgotten Tree), and the 100 page book “Two Trees” by Robert Ingleson.

    Greetings and blessings

    David

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  8. greybeard says:

    Hi David,

    This PDF you posted was very interesting to me until I got to the trinitarian comments. Are you a trinitarian? If you posted your back ground I missed it. Sorry. I don’t judge anyone, I think God cares more about our heart condition than the doctrine we believe. I don’t aspire to the trinity teaching although I don’t condemn those who do.

    Your brother in Christ,
    Greybeard

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  9. David Paul says:

    Dear Greybeard

    It is a pity that Frank was insensitive to strong varying beliefs in this area, and seemingly has made it a salvation issue, which it definitely is not. For some it can ruin a seemingly otherwise stunning article.

    Personally the trinity has become something of a non-issue for me, although I tend to accept (and favour) that the father and son are not co-equal, and not co-eternal. And the HS is still a force rather than a person for me.

    I tend to go with (if I recall correctly) Andrew’s comments on this site suggesting that if it were that important God would have made it more plain.

    How can we expect to fully grasp peripheral matters outside our “space-time” domain, especially in our fallen state (which presumably has downgraded our access to a higher dimension – which we will in future need if we are to populate and travel the vast and likely infinite physical universe, or “multiverse” physicists such as Michio Kaku speak of).

    I firmly believe that Jehovah God has freely chosen to make his gospel message the single most important thing he wants each of us to know intimately. He has even elevated his MESSAGE or WORD above his name! He has put our salvation ahead of his need to have his name cleared of all the lies, misrepresentations, and blasphemies heaped on it daily from Eden to now. What humility! What love!

    He has allowed his name to be removed from the Bible, but not the full and priceless gospel message according to Moses, Isaiah, the Psalmist, Paul and others.

    AKJV and NWT seem to agree on this (others read differently): “for you have magnified your word [or message] above all your name” (Ps 138:2 http://www.bible.cc).

    Human contrivances and efforts at “unity in doctrine” instead of “unity in Christ” seem to have started at Nicaea and birthed sectarianism.

    It serves religion’s divisive interests if I allow doctrinal differences to become the focal point and build a wall between me and another brother who is in Christ, and on the faith journey. We will all automatically arrive at the same point in Jesus’ way and time – provided we are all following him.

    The supremacy of fallen sinners based on holding to a particular set of doctrines is called “ethnocentrism” and is clearly just another demonic denial of Christian faith as outlined regarding equally anti-gospel supremacist “Legalism” in g79 6/8 pp. 27-28 (most likely by the late Ray Franz).

    It is difficult to do justice to this tricky topic in a short post. It is however crucially important to uncover and challenge this WBT$ booby trap (psychological trigger) they laid in our minds as an illegitimate framework whereby they become “the truth” based on their doctrines (in spite of their rejection of the HS’s work of regenerating our fallen spiritual hearts, etc, etc).

    “The Truth” is found not in doctrine, but in Christ, who is “The Truth” (John 14:6).

    “Do WBT$ religionists teach ‘the truth’ or are they afraid of HIM?”

    WBT$ religionists having stolen their followers’ faith and salvation, by means of their truncated gospel, have to default to the lie that “Religious BELIEF” is the same as “Spiritual FAITH”. “How can we have stolen it if you still have it?”.

    A more detailed write-up on “Unity in Christ vs Unity in Doctrine” is available if it can be of use. If so, please PM or email me and I will send a copy.

    May our Lord and Saviour Jesus continue to keep you in his love on this exciting and perilous stage of our journey to infinity.

    Greetings and blessings

    Your brother in Christ

    David

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  10. greybeard says:

    Thank you David,

    I see where you are coming from now. So far it looks as though we believe much the same. I like your point on Gods name at Ps 138:2. My e-mail is greybeardjws@gmail.com

    Please send me a copy of “Unity in Christ vs Unity in Doctrine”. I would like to know about you and your story too.

    Thank you,
    Your brother in Christ,
    Greybeard

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  11. Bro. Ed says:

    Greetings Greybeard and all others that are discussing this topic. I’ve listened to and read a number of thesis on the topic of wine vs. grape juice in relation to Lord’s Supper. Personally you could spend years going around in circles. I feel that whilst fermented wine was most likely the beverage consumed on the evening of the last supper, as it was common Jewish custom to include wine with their meals, Jesus focused on the symbolism not the literalness of the contents of the cup or the cup itself (as some religions do with some sort of mystical overtone). To force his followers to adhere to the literal use of wine in deference to their physical or spiritual needs would, I feel in reality, dilute (no pun intended) the real meaning behind the act. The key, I believe, is that whatever beverage best represents the blood of Christ (wine or grape juice) during a Lord’s evening meal, when we come to partake of both the bread and the cup, we must have a clear conscience and we must fully recognize the meaning of this act, as stated by Paul in 1 Corinthians 11:26-29.

    Warm Christian love

    P.S: I celebrated the Lord’s Supper (Lord’s evening meal) for the first time this year – by myself; at least for now. Anyhow, I felt that I really belonged to Christ for the first time and whilst baptism is important for a Christian to share in Christ’s death, in order to be reborn to a new life, it’s the sharing of Christ’s Last Supper that enabled me to join to his body. As such I’ve much to live up to!!

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