Watch the film: The Shunning

Jehovah’s Witnesses practice extreme shunning just like the Amish. It tears thousands of families apart every year.


For years people have been leaving the Watchtower Organization for varying reasons. The Watchtower itself used to mention the actual number of those disfellowshipped each year. Public relations shill for Watchtower, J.R. Brown said this in 1992:
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“Elders disfellowship 50,000 to 60,000 Witnesses around the world each year”, Brown said. “It’s not an unusual occurrence, as far as we’re concerned.”
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Like most thinking, reasonable people, we see that this is a cruel and inhumane practice, one that separates grandparents from grandkids, and Mothers and Fathers from their own children. It literally destroys hundreds or perhaps even thousands of families each year when it is enforced by JW elders acting as Watchtower representatives. Many spouses are urged to file for divorce or separation by members when their mate chooses to leave the Jehovah’s Witness movement.

Here’s one quote from JW.org about this topic, taken from the Watchtower 2011 2/15 pp. 28-32:
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16 Consider the experience of a sister whose adult son at one time had love for Jehovah. Later in life, however, he unrepentantly chose to practice lawlessness. Hence, he was disfellowshipped from the congregation. Our sister loved Jehovah, but she also loved her son and found it extremely difficult to apply the Scriptural command to avoid associating with him…By cutting off contact with the disfellowshipped or disassociated one, you are showing that you hate the attitudes and actions that led to that outcome. However, you are also showing that you love the wrongdoer enough to do what is best for him or her.

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The twisted reasoning is apparent from this quote from JW.org, implying that to show “love” you must show loyalty to the WT and shun them for their own good. Does such cold-hearted behavior work? Each will have to decide for themselves that question. Here’s a statistical breakdown of approximately how many have been disfellowshipped (amounting to over 1,000,000 people) in the last thirty years:
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30 years of Disfellowshipping
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And notice this observation from Randy Watters excellent website, Freeminds.org:
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“It seems that about 1% of active Witnesses are disfellowshipped every year but many more than this are quietly leaving without any formal action being taken against them. In the 10 years from 1996 to 2005 there were 2,968,732 baptisms, yet the increase in average publishers was only 1,439,672. This shows 1,529,060 stopped publishing. Even accounting for the average death rate, over 1 million Witnesses left in a 10 year period.”
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Further statistical information that is relevant comes from these two sources:
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“An even more extreme example of what might be called “masked churn” is the relatively tiny Jehovah’s Witnesses, with a turnover rate of about two-thirds. That means that two-thirds of the people who told Pew they were raised Jehovah’s Witnesses no longer are – yet the group attracts roughly the same number of converts.” America’s Unfaithful Faithful David Van Biema
(http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1716987,00.html February 25 2008)
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“Jehovah’s Witnesses have the lowest retention rate of any religious tradition. Only 37% of all those who say they were raised as Jehovah’s Witnesses still identify themselves as Jehovah’s Witnesses.” (religions.pewforum.org/reports As at March 8 2008)

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What this tells us then is that so many people, over one million of them, have been disfellowshipped and have not returned to Watchtower. And this does not even count the many hundreds of thousands in that same period that have become inactive and have faded away due to lack of interest or disagreement with the treatment, practices, and beliefs of the Jehovah’s Witnesses religion!

Of course, the practice of excommunication is not new. Notice an excerpt from a fascinating article[2] about some of the havoc wreaked upon people by this practice hundreds of years ago:


In Europe’s Middle Ages, a fearsome form of punishment for kings, noblemen and merchants alike was excommunication by the Church. Though even in this highly religious period not all feared the spiritual dimension of excommunication, the economic consequences were serious. A nobleman or merchant who was excommunicated could be required to forfeit his wealth or property, and could not rely on protection from those who took it from him. And so the kings of Europe, almost always cash-strapped, could use excommunication as a way to fill their coffers.

“As the church extended its power over the empire and secular rulers, excommunication became a convenient tool through which to express its political will. One hundred years before the Third Lateran Council, the young Holy Roman Emperor challenged the authority of Pope Gregory VII, the former monk known as Hildebrand. Henry challenged the pope’s authority only to find that he was excommunicated from the church, which would have proved a valid excuse for princes to rebel from his authority. The language of the pope was explicit and contained more than a simple admonition against disobedience. ‘I now declare … that Henry, son of the Emperor Henry, is deprived of his kingdom of Italy and Germany,’ he wrote in 1076. As a result, Henry traveled to Canossa in the Alps in 1077, where the pope was staying, and stood penitentially outside his residence in the snow until Gregory forgave his sins and restored his standing in the church. The spectacle of an emperor having to do penitence in such a manner was one of the medieval world’s most enduring images and made a strong impression on the faithful and non-believers alike.” (From: “Beggar Thy Neighbor”, by Charles R. Geisst, pages 35-36. Also see www.delanceyplace.com)

What comes to mind for many is how the Watchtower has used the “excommunication sword” vis-à-vis the disfellowshipping doctrine to control people in a similar way. Raymond Franz, former governing body member of Jehovah’s Witnesses was singled out in this way after being asked to leave the World Headquarters of Jehovah’s Witnesses, but not disfellowshipped due to a lack of the needed 2/3 majority. Only a year later the excommunication sword was wielded upon Ray Franz, and a new crime was invented in the 1981 September 15th Watchtower magazine[1], basically stating that one could not eat a meal with someone who had disassociated themselves, which Watchtower elders already knew Franz had done.

Ironically, Ray’s uncle, Frederick Franz wrote the following article in 1947, criticizing Christendom’s churches for using excommunication:
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Excommunication - Awake 1947-jan-8-p.27

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[1] See the following articles:
*** w81 9/15 p. 20 Disfellowshiping—How to View It ***
*** w81 9/15 p. 27 If a Relative Is Disfellowshiped ***
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[2] Link courtesy of Delancey Place archives. Thanks to Dudley Cook for emailing me this reference.
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156 Comments on JW.org on Shunning

  1. dudley cook says:

    Hi JJ; I’m happy to see that you quoted from the article on excommunication I sent you, although you did not credit a source.
    I’m not so happy that you’ve forgotten the careful Bible research I sent months ago that were written to help any truly meek Witness to see and correct some of the Wt’s divergence from scripture. What became of your original favorable impression with my efforts?? — dudley

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  2. JJ says:

    Dudley

    Thanks for pointing this out; I can and do offer my apologies for not mentioning that you emailed me a link to the article in the Delancey Place archives. I had intended to email you and thank you personally for the reference but accidentally forgot to do that.

    Thanks again for your vigilance brother! I will update the article notes to reflect this.

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  3. use2badub says:

    Hi JJ,
    In view of the recent 7/15/13 WT, I humbly submit that all true JW’s review their loyalty and devotion to the GB (aka “faithful Slave”). Maybe a few inspirational reminders will help them to daily remember their loyalty.

    Pledge of allegiance to the GB

    I pledge allegiance to The Governing Body of the United States Branch of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society,
    And to the ‘faithful slave’ for which they stand.
    One Organization slightly under God, unabashed, with uniformity and judicial
    committees for all.

    Anthem to the GB

    O say can you see; by the GB’s ‘new light”,
    What so dogmatically we preached as the Organization’s last teaching,
    Whose boring books and dull mags through the perilous fight,
    O’er the decades we watched, were so frequently changing?
    And in service we share, all ‘new light’ should we dare,
    Gives proof through the years that the GB’s still there;
    O say does that ‘new-light’,banter yet waiver,
    O’er the land of those in fear and the home of the “slave”?

    Your Bro in Christ,
    use2badub

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    • Thegoodlife1961 says:

      LOVED your posts!! Hilarious! And after going thru some really tough stuff w/ my jw family & resulting depression, your posts here gave me a much needed lift & laughs! Thanks!

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  4. Rupunzelsawake says:

    Thanks for this JJ. Just want to add that the 1947 article is from an Awake magazine. I just copied it for my upcoming stoning! That was after I read the Jan 1 ’47 WT…interesting stuff! Apparently there was a movement of brothers and sisters who were anti-organisation, saying that it was “channelism”!!They were referred to as “self-governing independants”, “easy marks for the adversary and his hosts to pick off..” That was before the internet!!

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    • JJ says:

      Thanks for that correction- Awake not WT on the 1947 article.

      BTW, PLEASE tell me you will be recording any and all conversations w the elders when they attempt to spiritually stone you…we need more of these put online!

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  5. kathy says:

    I tried to explain to my dad my feelings on the GB he replied” no more calls or visits. We will remain faithful no matter what.” A week later he was in the hospital with heart problems. I went to him and told him I was sorry if what I said put him in there and offered to get him pajamas or whatever he needed from his house. He agreed and for some reason am welcome in their home. I am even allowed to eat a meal with them and he’s an elder! My parents are in their early 80’s and my mom is in the beginning stage of Alzheimer’s. I tell myself this is why I am allowed to associate with them. I still feel the same about the governing body and pray that one day my parents and two brothers still deep in this organization will have their eyes opened. My sister joined the Mennonite church and is still shunned.

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    • Rupunzelsawake says:

      Hi Kathy! That’s a really sad situation you find yourself in. The WT puts up these barriers between us and our loved ones…it’s so unchristian and unloving. I am glad your parents let you visit and help them. Maybe that’s all you can do, and I’m sure Jehovah would be pleased with that. It’s sad to think of the disappointment our loved ones in the org will have when it comes crashing down. We need to always be available for them. And that’s what you’re doing, even though it’s hard for you! Love to you sister! I will pray for you, that Jehovah gives you the wise course, and one that gives you peace!

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  6. whateverhappenetome says:

    Hi Kathy…
    My thoughts and prayers are with you as well..

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  7. Stephanie H says:

    This is so disgusting to me. The amount of sheer control this organization has over its members is sickening. I also find it so ridiculous that they attempt to use shunning as a way to get the disfellowshipped one to “come to his senses” and return to the fold. Seriously? How does that work?

    Them: We hate you. You are dead to us.
    DF’ed person: I want to be a part of THAT! Sign me back up, Chuck.
    Them: We love you again…UNTIL we don’t again.
    DF’ed person: Sweet. I knew I made the right choice.

    C’mon. Really? That type of absolute conditional love makes absolutely no sense. If you really wanted your loved one to “return to the fold”, wouldn’t your desire be that they come back for JEHOVAH? Not to somehow regain acceptance from estranged family and fairweather friends? The whole idea is just ludicrous to me.

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    • Rupunzelsawake says:

      Yes, all it is is emotional black-mail, and they pretty much admit this in the publications.They relate experiences of “grateful” disfellowshipped persons who, having missed their families and friends so desperately, make a return. So, what is the motive? And they think this is good? They see this as proof that disfellowshipping works, and that it is loving!!??? Huh?

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  8. Frank says:

    “If a person is disfellowshipped, that simply means Jehovah’s Witnesses choose to not communicate with the person anymore. It’s any person’s civil and constitutional right to cease communicating with a person for any reason.”

    Ryan on May 25, 2013 at 10:20 pm said:

    http://aawa.co/blog/shunning/#comments

    Notice here the word “choose.” What Ryan does here is show how the human mind can be lulled into indoctrination. His brainwashing is demonstrated by perpetuating the false premise that Jehovah’s Witnesess ‘choose’ to shun. If this was inherently true then no Jehovah’s Witness would face sanction and other more serious congregation ‘discipline’ if they used their constitutional right of free conscience to associate with organisationally-disapproved individuals (social association). He knows as well as we do that the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society sets up elders in each congregation to police this situation and take ‘corrective’ measures. There is much evidence to show this.

    Another myth that started with WT literature is that the Supreme Court case that inspired this misleading impression, far from an act of divine providence, was merely a default win based on the lawful reluctance under the First Amendment for government to ‘interfere’ with internal church matters. In other words, there was no admission that the US government condoned the action of shunning, but only legal tolerance of the constitutional right for churches to deal with their dissidents as they feel they see fit.
    By ‘default’ I mean that ANY church would get the same result under the First Amendment. Characteristically this is not how the WTBTS portrayed it in their literature.

    Any Jehovah’s Witness can go to the homepage of the OSCE, read its political agenda and then type in ‘Jehovah’s Witnesses’ in the site’s search engine to find dozens of hits containing pdf documents signed by Paul Gilles and the like who are lobbying for their religion’s constitutional rights to conscience and free practice of religion. The very convention they quote, the United Nations Human Rights Convention is the very document that has human rights that their religion denies their own acolytes.

    Frank

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  9. Frank V says:

    “at one time had love for Jehovah”

    “unrepentantly chose to practice lawlessness”

    “Our sister loved Jehovah”

    “Scriptural command”

    “disfellowshipped or disassociated one”

    “you love the wrongdoer enough to do what is best for him or her”

    Do you notice how there is almost no information in the above paragraph from the Watchtower 2011 2/15 pp. 28-32?

    This is emotional mental manipulation to excess. It is designed to rein in the wandering and even the wondering mind. For instance:

    What did her son do to be labelled an unrepentant wrongdoer? Fornication or merely questioning a belief?

    How does it follow that a single wrongdoing means that the ‘wrongdoer’ does not love Jehovah?

    Where is the clearly-stated Biblical ‘command’ to shun this person?

    Where are the phrasse ‘disfellowshipped’ and ‘disassociated’in the Bible, let alone the concept?

    Where is the FORMAL arrangement of disfellowshipping in the Bible?

    Knowing the statistics surrounding the mental and emotional problems that come with enforced loneliness (Enforced unity rather than willing participation on the part of the shunners) that will likely accompany this action to the individual, where does the notion that this is the ‘best thing for him/her’ come from?

    Frank

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    • miscreant droid says:

      Hi, I’m new here, and not particularly computer savvy, so please forgive the occasional double printings and such. I wanted to thank JJ et al for prepping this site for us. I’ve been deeply moved by many of your stories and look forward to chatting with you guys. I’m still a member in good standing with the local Kingdom Hall, though I’ve stopped turning in time due to my concerns about the WT&TS. I’ve found more encouragement here from rational thinkers than I’ve found from the ‘friends’ in a long time. I’ll be stopping in a lot.
      Thanks again,
      Miscreant Droid (no longer a perfect robot)

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  10. daniel orta says:

    I was raised in the organization and left when I was a teen. I saw these very problems back then in the late eighties I have tried to go back a few times only to be disappointed again with the way things were in there. Know the shunning treatment all to well and all that did was push me away even further its ridiculous I have tons of stories I will share along the way. Its sad but true but they ruining peoples hearts and minds and doing the opposite of what they say there doing and that’s pushing people away from jehovaits time they start getting called out on it,

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  11. Frank says:

    Western Culture may marvel at a woman who protests her civil right to wear a full-length burka. Reasonably we might suspect the presence of religious indoctrination. As humanist Sam Harris puts it: ‘How good can it be for society to force half the population to live their lives in cloth bags?’ We may similarly conclude that when a Jehovah’s Witness protests their constitutional right to shun their mother, brother, sister, father, uncle etc, that religious indoctrination likewise is also involved, why?

    1 Social shunning violates Christ’s admonition to “love your enemy.” – The exemplar and founder of Christianity, Jesus Christ, didn’t even shun the Pharisees who openly apostatised against God’s Law, Christ even personally condemning them as a group.

    2 Social shunning violates human dignity – Early on in Watchtower history, treating a person who changed their mind or who fell into sin and who was thus disapproved congregationally was treated with dignity and encouraged to return. Forced social shunning brings shame both to the shunners (particularly family) and to the shunned.

    3 Social shunning brings reproach on God’s name – Such extreme and draconian policies cause people outside to see Jehovah’s Witnesses as narrow-minded, intolerant, separatist, snobbish; not representative of Christ’s love.

    4 Social shunning is an act of emotional blackmail, not an act of agape love – Congregation members are compelled on threat of expulsion, to make the shunned person feel rejected and thus ‘return to the fold’ whether they wish to or not.

    5 Social shunning violates the human conscience – A conscientious decision made with full knowledge is not made available to congregation and family members as to whether the victim should be shunned or not.. Thus the decision is not a personal one, but enforced hierarchically.

    6 Social shunning as an enforced policy invokes fear of authority, not love of God – The language in Watchtower publications uses pejoratives (name-calling) to mark perceived enemies, and indiscriminately views even unbiblical sins as making the shunned one an ‘enemy of God.’ (Matthew 7;1,2)

    7 Social shunning violates the natural order of things – God created the family arrangement. Family solidarity is violated when members are forced to shun the one family member victim and treat him as an enemy.

    8 Social shunning is a ‘quick fix’ that negates the conscientious need for hardworking shepherds to ‘go after the one sheep that has strayed. Scripturally the failure to do this brings ‘heavier judgement’ upon the shepherds.

    9 Social shunning forces the victim to ‘return to the fold’ merely to reunite his family – Anything other motive is an accident or a bonus. ‘Kingdom smiles’ become upside-down-frowns.

    10 Social shunning is based on Old Testament values (In the OT those found guilty were condemned to death. Shunning has been described as treating the individual as ‘dead’), not those of the Enlightenment from where we get conventions on human rights, the same rights being constantly insisted on by the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society for the smooth running of its own affairs.

    11 Social shunning destroys reputations: If a person is shunned based on 1 Corinthians 5:11, 12 and compared to such congregational crimes such as being: sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler; the victim should seriously consider making such claims a civil matter. Notice Paul does not use the qualifier, “and things like these.”

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  12. Frank says:

    12 Social shunning causes enforced loneliness with its resultant depression, anxiety, and, in rare cases, suicide.

    In short, social shunning is not the answer, it is part of the problem. The fact is that the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, like its fear of dealing with the fallout from its ineffectual ‘child protection’ policies, likewise will not acknowledge and deal with the result of its damaging policy of social shunning. When legal problems arise, it invokes First Amendment civil rights rather than face intelligent discussion or take appropriate responsibility for such policies.

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  13. Rupunzelsawake says:

    I see the August WT has a question from readers regarding whether it is ok for disfellowshipped ones to sit with their family members at congregation meetings. They say it’s ok. That’s a bit late for one lovely sister in my former congregation. I saw her distraught in tears one day in the foyer talking with an elder. He had just told her it was not ok for her to be sitting with her df’d daughter who was living with her. My heart broke for her. Her daughter has since been reinstated.

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  14. Frank says:

    No one should doubt for a second that extreme shunning is effective. Fear is a powerful motivator. Fear is retained because it’s effective.

    Such a system is only effective, though, in the same way that spraying bullets in a shopping centre in an attempt to hit one guilty person would be.

    The victims of this dreadful system are often subject to elders who clearly have a private motive and even personal grudges against the interrogated person.

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  15. Escaping the cage says:

    I just read a post a friend put on my Facebook and I think that this quote is appropriate for this article.
    “The greatest fear in the world is of the opinions of others, and the moment you are unafraid of the crowd, you are no longer a sheep, you become a lion. A great roar arises in your heart, the roar of freedom”~Osho
    Many times its fear that holds back many from leaving the organization. Fear of facing JW family, elders, friends, ect… So maybe there are thousands more wanting to escape this cage but because of judicial committees and an announcement in the platform it’s a scary thought. Be strong friends, we are not alone.

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    • Rupunzelsawake says:

      Hi Escaping the cage. How timely your post is for me! I am facing the execution squad in about two and a half hours! I wrote a friend that I didn’t know if I would be a voiceless lamb to the slaughter, or a roaring lion! Your post has given me courage! “A great roar arises in my heart”! I hope, with Yeshua’s help! I want to speak up for all those others in fear, held hostages in the organisation. Thankyou for your reminder to be strong, and that I am not alone!

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  16. Frank says:

    One very important matter that might escape our attention is that the WTBTS has survived for a long long time. It does this by tried and true methods. Russia was an example of how to hold a populace in control by cutting off the outside world. Fear is the key – secret trials, shunning, indoctrination, and mindless obedience to the state. Unity is enforced and policed. Russia had the KGB.

    The problem with those who resist injustice is that our efforts are often fragmented. The Net has thousands of sites that are run by well-intentioned individuals, but the road to hell is paved with them. In Richard Dawkins’ book, The God Delusion, he states that atheists progress slowly because their efforts to be heard are like herding cats. I think those who resist organised attempts to destroy what we value are like that too.

    I have access to a lot of evidence that could be used against unbiblical policies, but, for personal reasons, I must rely on established sites to publish. Unfortunately, because my nature is subversive, my attempts to be heard are often misunderstood. This is why AAWA blacklisted me. The president didn’t like that I went public stating that the original site was too subversive even for my taste (Activists). It seems I wasn’t wrong, but that’s democracy.

    The fight is between American First Amendment rights and the rest of us. As long as there are only tadpoles in the pond, the frogs will always win.

    Pity.

    Frank V

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  17. Escaping the cage says:

    Repunzelsawake, how did it go? Did the elders hear you roar? :-)
    Well, no doubt they did. But even if they did not want to accept or listen, you did your part and now the road to the future awaits. Please keep us posted!

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  18. miscreant droid says:

    Repunzelsawake, I’m also desperately awaiting news!

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  19. Rupunzelsawake says:

    Hi Escaping the cage and my bad robot!!I am alive,but feeling slightly insane after the experience! Unfortunately my voice is to gentle to ROAR!! (I discovered upon listening back to the recording)Um…I got to say what I wanted to say. I tried to make an emotional appeal, and a strong defense for all you brothers and sisters here at struggle, my fellow miscreant droids! I told them I was speaking for you. Whether it fell on deaf ears, I don’t know. It was surreal. It was even friendly??? I was treated with respect and in a loving manner (by two out of the three of them)….so please be assured, not all elders are like those you see/hear in the videos. That doesn’t mean I am not having my head chopped off. You may think me crazy, but I demanded they do it….That took the wind out of the sails of the third elder! He actually seemed annoyed. I think there is dissension among them, and I wouldn’t be surprised if words were exchanged between them afterwards. I will be present for my announcement where I will sit at the front and look the brother squarely in the eye as he says it. I want to know what it feels like. I will post more on the forum “Out of the tower! Hooray!” soon. Love to you both!

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  20. Frank says:

    Hi Rupunzelsawake. Don’t be fooled by the ‘politeness.’ The elders are trained to smile as they draw the dagger slowly over the carotid artery. What needs to be borne in mind is that the decision was already made before you even sat down.

    I have written a lengthy essay on the appalling ethics (if they can be called ethics)on the Scottish Matthew Barrie judicial case. I personally picked at least 21 ethical violations, a number of which were human rights violations, present in this kangaroo-style secret trial.

    Even the secret elders’ handbook openly declares that the victim allegedly comes third in importance to ‘protecting God’s Name’ (his Word contains no precedent for such proceedings) and the ‘protecting of the congregation’ (from now on you will be dead to them even though they will never know why).

    I think you have been very brave.

    I have transcribed the Matthew Barrie case. If there are lessons to be learned from your recording please make it available so others can be party to their schemes.

    Frank

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    • Rupunzelsawake says:

      Hi Frank. i know what you are saying, but love hopes all things. You don’t know these men. My aim was to at least try to do anything to reach them, at my own expense. They are as I was, although I never wielded the dagger personally, I was quite happy to go along with their decisions, and do the shunning. There’s more to this story. I want to give it a bit of time! I haven’t finished yet!

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  21. Escaping the cage says:

    Rupunzelsawake,
    I’m glad it went well. And Frank is right. They already decided before talking to you. They just try to get all the facts so they can send it to headquarters. My father is an elder, and I too don’t believe that all elders are evil but more then anything, brain washed. Sometimes mind controlling organizations use titles such as elders, overseers, ministerial servants to feel important. They know that if humble people who perhaps have had no collage education or are not extensively trained in biblical history, would appreciate a title such as that and therefore would follow directions and do whatever they are told to do without question. Many elders are ill intentioned and use their power to hurt others. Many are not like that. Bottom line. They all come from the same source. And it’s the source that needs to be stopped.
    What subjects were discussed in your meeting? And why did you have to meet with them in the first place, if you don’t mind me asking?

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  22. Frank says:

    Hi Rupunzelsawake.

    I apologise if I sounded pushy. I don’t mean to be. No doubt all here are genuinely intrigued by your circumnstances. Of course, we will respect your right to privacy if that’s the way you wish to go. Not all want to go public with their issues or cases.

    It took me weeks to transcribe and analyse the Matthew Barrie case. I did it with full permission of Matthew and it was published on governingbody.org. I remember spitting tacks as I painstakingly recorded the strong accents, but every word was worth it. Perhaps you’re like me, you want others to benefit from your experience.

    What made me most angry was that despite the ‘politeness’,’ when Matthew told his judges respectfully that he didn’t wish to talk about his private views, they manufactured (framing mischief by law – Daniel) a charge of failing to ‘respect the representatives of Jehovah’! Barrie had no right to silence and even the right to private thoughts. Almost none of his case had direct witness testimony, but hearsay and second-hand information. Matthew was disfellowshipped simply on the basis of two elder ‘witnesses’ who broke the Biblical vow of confidence in the shepherding work! This action brought this trusting function into disrepute as a result.

    Matthew’s case is unique too because he recorded a conversation between himself and another elder (Podcast 8: Showdown at the Kingdom Hall) that clearly exposes the motive for the whole affair. Great learning tool for all who will undergo this less-than-scrupulous procedure.

    I hope you can share more with us.

    Frank

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  23. miscreant droid says:

    Repunzelsawake, I know that you’re bogged down with the rottenness of this situation right now, so I won’t ask questions or push for a reply. My heart goes out to you. I’m actually weeping right now. If there’s anything you need from me other than my love and sympathy, let me know.

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    • Rupunzelsawake says:

      Thankyou so much for your tears for me!! That means a lot! I will share some more when my head can deal with it. Have you looked at the jwstruggle forum. I post there on “Introducing yourself – Out of the tower! Hooray!”. It’s just easier to keep “my story” on one thread, rather than little comments all over the place!

      Also, thanks Frank..I wasn’t considering you pushy at all. I actually took your list regarding the illegality of the shunning policy into the meeting with me. I chose to appeal to the heart/emotions instead (of the illegality) on the night. When one of the elders tried pushing me for my doctrinal differences, the other one told him to be quiet, not once, but twice.

      Thanks for your comment too Escaping the cage! My judicial committee was made up of one Pharisee, one with a wooden head,(ie. dense/insensitive), and one possible sheep!

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  24. Escaping the cage says:

    Hi Repunzelsawake! I just wanted to apologize as well. I also didn’t mean to be pushy or trying to pry in your business. And I just wanted you to know that Jehovah loves you for being brave and facing what you’ve been through. Remember, they are imperfect humans that believe that they are guided by God but are not. So even though it may seem like the maximum punishment, it really isn’t when it comes from an illigitamate source. Be strong my dear sister. You have our love and support.

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    • Rupunzelsawake says:

      No apology necessary!! You weren’t being pushy! I would have been upset if nobody was interested in how it went! I’m dying to tell you all the details, but I don’t want it all over the internet, for the sake of the brothers involved. I’ve listened twice to the recording I made, and the whole meeting was very weird. Not at all inquisition like, but cordial and respectful.I got to say my piece.I really don’t know what to make of it. I am wondering if I didn’t demand to be disfellowshipped whether they would have done it!??? I haven’t changed my mind about that by the way. So strange. When I go to the meeting when it will be announced, I will be my normal friendly self before the meeting, (not the angry, bitter apostate, because I am not) then straight after the announcement, I will get up out of my seat in the front row, and leave….and do cart-wheels down the aisle! Maybe a head-spin. In a tutu! I will feel sad because I do like these people, but my conscience can’t allow me to stay.

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  25. Frank says:

    Hi Rupunzelsawake.

    Of course, reasonable people will respect your right to privacy. A religious judicial case places us (or the committee members) centre-stage. My purpose is to workshop the methods employed so others who have to face this unbiblical system can learn how to be the most effective.

    Just thinking about the Matthew Barrie case, I think there are two main defences in this kangaroo court set-up.

    (1) Where there are ‘two witnesses’ who claim to have unambiguous testimony, go the Stephen Defence. This means bravely preach the reasons why you are making a conscientious stand for what you believe.

    And:

    (2) The Jesus Defence; Be silent ‘before your shearers.’ The advantage to this, in the absence of unambiguous witnesses (Note: Where there is only one witness, the elders will try to use your own testimony as a ‘second witness.’ They do this by plying the victim with guilt trips and threats. If there is a ‘second,’ the testimony might contradict), by being silent, you force your prosecutors to convict you without any admission of guilt. The result is that punishment is applied without a crime, making the decision to disfellowship illegal.

    It surprised me how ‘polite’ the elders were in the MB case. This should have no effect on us, though, when far greater issues of human rights are applicable. Remember, it’s not necessarily the players in the drama; it’s the system itself that is itself on trial here. Depending on our family circumstances, there is a very heavy price to pay for those who aren’t aware of wily methods. The Organisation has one purpose in this court-setup – neutralise a threat to internal security.

    Frank

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  26. Rupunzelsawake says:

    Thanks for your reply. I hear where you are coming from. I know it’s the system that stinks. (And I haven’t finished yet.) My first weapon of choice is love. My first objective was to help these men open their eyes and their hearts. In time I may pick up another “weapon”. You won’t learn anything “tactical” from these brothers I don’t think. They broke all the “rules”! I really don’t think they were typical.

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  27. Frank says:

    It’s interesting that you use weapons as a metaphor here, Rupunzelsawake. The WTBTS believes that anything is a ‘weapon of righteousness’ under their Theocratic War Strategy campaign. Their whole mind-set is one of marshal law in ‘the Time of the End.’

    All I’m suggesting is that we play them at their own wargame. We need as many martyrs as possible to demonstrate where this system comes from.

    We have a human right to protect ourselves against unscrupulous tactics and to protect our families from being forced to do what is unnatural for them. The emotional cost is too high in a secular system that places so much stress already on people.

    Thanks for your contribution so far, Rupunzelsawake.

    Frank

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  28. danielB says:

    From our own perspective , when we are disfellowshipped , what results is more of a restriction upon the Witnesses than upon us . Realizing that we have liberty to carry on as Christians , we can pick and choose who we will talk to from there on out . We are not under such control of men . It is the typical complying Jehovah’s Witness who has such restrictions imposed on them . The intention back-fires in this sense . Unfortunately , they find themselves under bondage , and this is not bondage to Christ , but to men . It helps to understand this , Rupunzelsawake , when the time comes . No doubt you will be discreet in how you handle this annoyance . But the facts remains that we have freedom of speech and we can express love to whom we may .

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  29. Rupunzelsawake says:

    Don’t worry brothers. I can make a noise when the time is right. There are other ways.

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  30. miscreant droid says:

    I’ve been skipping aimlessly through the watchtower this week. There’s strong encouragement on Bible reading in the June 3-9 article, and the comments on Sunday suggest I’m not the only one taking this seriously. There’s even another Josephus expert in our congregation. Just for fun I scratched out all of the propaganda lines in the last article (June 24-30 (which is mostly doctrinal doublespeak)), such as, “What confidence this gives us in Jehovah’s organization!” (wt apr. 13 pg. 27). Once the WT cliches are removed there’s plenty of practical Christian advice. It even makes for…well, not ‘good’, but fair enough reading after all the tag-lines are gone. I had to scratch out almost half of the last article in the issue, however (Apr 15, ’13). If I just set the tag-lines aside and read them by themselves, this WT starts to look like one of Rev. Moony’s pamphlets. Add to that all the pictures of smiling robots and it starts to feel really creepy. Even before I was baptized I couldn’t help but wonder why the WT editors wanted to make JWs look so……I was going to say “so much like blithering idiots”, but perhaps ‘unintellectual’ would be fairer. A year or so ago the WTBTS started putting out a simplified version of the WT for people who’s reading skills aren’t up to snuff– two or three very basic paragraphs mixed in with lots of pretty pictures will make up an entire article in those magazines. I was hoping they’d tend to the other end of the spectrum as well, for those of us who know all of the ‘proof’ scriptures, and would like to evaluate deeper insights on a regular basis. Now I’m starting to think they’re going to try and wean everyone else off of the regular WT and just have us all stare at the pretty pictures on Sunday. Forced lobotomies can’t be far off– haha. I’m only bringing this up because the first line in the third paragraph of the topic article on ‘shunning’ reads, “Like most reasonable, thinking people, we see that this is a cruel and inhumane practice…” As often as the WT uses similar phrasings, they seem to be working against rational thought with the severe threat of shunning looming on the horizon for free thinkers. With statements like ‘criticizing the GB is tantamount to criticizing Jehovah’ coming form the WT on a regular basis, how would it even be possible to possess, let alone utilize, rational thought in regards to Bible reading? The past few years has seen a rise in references to Korah’s rebellion against Moses (Numbers chps. 16 + 17) in the WT perhaps because free thinkers still exist within the Org. Have whole congregations sent heartfelt letters to the GB asking for clarification based on scripture, only to met with references to Korah? A dividing line is drawn between the WTBTS and sincere concern for our brothers, not just rebellion. The doublespeak used by the WT when addressing such subjects is getting harder to ignore. Many brothers, such as myself, have still found it possible to attend without speaking out publicly simply because our Lord Jesus gave us clear counsel not to trust our shepherds (Matt. 23: 1-4 (paraphrased– ‘do as they say, not as they do’). A perfect religion that lives up to Jehovah’s standards will not exist. Ever. Anywhere. Until the Day of Judgement is long passed. The Israelites were purified by trial many times before the Christ came to them. In His day, idolatry must have been much rarer than in the times of previous Prophets. Thousands of years of trial were required to get to that point, however; to wake people up enough so they’d stop bowing before golden knick-knacks with such tenacity. We may yet be many thousands of years away from the next great reform. The Prophets of old understood the concept of a circumcised heart when they spoke of valueless sacrifices from a people who obeyed the law but still practiced wickedness. And of course they were treated like dirt for their sincere concern for scripture (James 5:10– “Brothers, as an example of patience in the face of suffering, take the Prophets, who spoke in the name of the Lord.” NIV) Just a few verses prior to that we can find a passage that may give us some solace if we’ve been disfellowshipped for apostasy for using the ‘reasoning of a sound mind’: James 5:5– “You have condemned and murdered innocent men who were not opposing you.” Keep the faith, Freethinkers. Jehovah still prefers those who give serious thought to His Word over mindless drones.

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  31. Rupunzelsawake says:

    Hi droid! So nice to read a lengthy and meaningful post from you brother!! So true, the material studied today is milk as opposed to meat, so too, the material covered at assemblies and conventions. My husband made a comment after my judicial meeting, “Lets face it. It’s easier to be faithful (ie, to the GB) if you’re DUMB.” The propaganda in the magazines is mind paralysing/crippling. I have reflected much on those verses in James also. I must check out what the mag says on shunning and when that will be studied in relation to my “announcement”. Could be quite timely!

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    • miscreant droid says:

      In regards to the article on shunning, I was referring to the one at the top of this page. I’m too lazy to find anything in the WTs. Quick addendum– I intended to refer to James 5:6 rather than James 5:5 at the bottom of post #30 above. Forgive my ineptitude.
      Hi Rupunzel. I guess you’ll get ‘handed over to Satan’ for your wickedness pretty soon. haha. I’ll be perched on tenterhooks waiting to hear how it went until then. I’m going to give a quick perusal to JW.org and see if I can refer you to any related articles from the ‘approved’ sources. I clearly remember being baffled by the last WT article on disfellowshipment I read a few years ago. The author of that text used the word ‘lovingly’ in every third sentence. Heck, it may have been every third word. Anyway, another article, this time dealing with sexual impurity- with strong focus on masturbation- again had Brother Lovingly’s hand all over it. I guess they reserve the touchiest topics to be penned by him since no one else can use the word ‘lovingly’ with such clear disregard for style. I haven’t come across a lot of his work in the WT since then, but blatant misuse of scripture is another earmark of his work. I’ll let you know what I find.

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      • Rupunzelsawake says:

        You are so funny! Shame that quote wasn’t in WT. There is an article about the pagan origin of ex-communicating in a 1940’s WT. Yes, I realised you meant v 6 James. I’m trying to work out a way of vomitting on cue….That would create a nice stink following my announcement…one not easily forgotten!!! You have to laugh or you go crazy, right?!!

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  32. Frank says:

    “What confidence this gives us in Jehovah’s organization!” (wt apr. 13 pg. 27).””

    Hi Droid. These lines, that make up most of such articles, are designed to tell the naive how to think. They are rocks under the water (the Bible, I think). The constant use of the phrase, “Jehovah’s Organization” is where the fear lies. Contradicting those who place themselves in the most powerful religious position on Earth means the worst punishment if someone fails to ‘respect’ whatever assertions, wild or otherwise, are made.

    This morning I’ve been listening through Rick Fearon’s judicial case recording yet again. Every time I do this I pick up something new that ‘gels’ with my growing knowledge of what it is like to be looking in from the outside rather than looking out from inside.

    Fearon’s testimony (though likely not exclusively) might be the reason why power in the Organisation has been consolidated. A committee member asks why Fearon is so keen to criticise the Governing Body so passionately. Fearon replies that, as a member of the Remnant it is his job to do this where he sees serious errors being made. Fearon believes he is/was a member of the Faithful and Discreet Slave Class. The tale Fearon tells is one of rejection by the congregation and Organisation in general about his assertions. The problem, at least from the latest ‘light’ has been solved as far as the GB are concerned.

    Could this be why suddenly ‘new light’ has been announced to the throng?

    Fearon also states repeatedly that a family member was socially shunning him and his wife even before he was disfellowshipped.

    Frank

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    • Rupunzelsawake says:

      Yes, other “anointed” have been effectively silenced. Here’s another motive from JW News that I re-read last night, on the class action lawsuit in Australia: “On October 6, 2012, at the Annual Meeting of Jehovah’s Witnesses…during the discourse “when Does Jesus Appoint the Slave ‘Over All His Belongings’?, it was publicly announced that the worldwide Church of JWs has just undergone a major restructuring of ‘doctrinal teachings’ and asset ownership, the net result being that the church now claims it no longer has billions of dollars in assets or ‘belongings’ but is, from a legal position, an unincorporated association with no assets whatsoever.” What do you brothers make of this? Could this be the case? I don’t know much about “business”.

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  33. Rupunzelsawake says:

    Hey, where did Franks post go?

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  34. miscreant droid says:

    I found a disfellowshipping article from WT06 11/15 pp.26-30. I’m assuming the 06 refers to 2006. I don’t think it was Brother Lovingly’s article, but the cited scriptures seem to have been chosen at random, so it ‘might’ be the one I remembered from so long ago. Strangely enough I came across these scriptures also within the JW.org archives related to the subject: 2nd Cor. 2:5-8, and also 2nd Cor. 2:10,11. These are same scriptures I keep handy to argue AGAINST the severity of the disfellowshipping process. I guess the Org. only recognizes them as a mandate preventing a decree of ‘permanent’ ousting by the elder tribunal. C’est la vie

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  35. miscreant droid says:

    Also, thanks Frank for your comments. I’m not yet to a point where I’m ready to throw up my hands in disgust and walk away (after all, the same foolishness exists in ALL christian churches), but I’m definitely outside enough to be looking in for once. To quote Jerry Garcia, “What a long, strange trip it’s been.”

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  36. Frank says:

    Actually, Droid, neither am I. I am still baptised and in good standing, but what I have found…I won’t use the word ‘stumbled’ because it weakens my position…and I prefer the phrase theistic agnostic. I am not surprised that humans, especially males, eventually ‘lose the plot’ but I am surprised at the amount of damage to the spirits of affected members while this politicking goes on.

    I am still not prepared to use the word, ‘corrupt’ for the Organisation, but the system is SURELY corruptED.

    Fearon gives the Organisation a serve on the UN Affair as well. My favourite line is: “If the Organisation wasn’t doing anything wrong, why’d they get out?”

    There is ample evidence of political alliances at the OSCE site.

    Give it time.

    Frank

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  37. Rupunzelsawake says:

    Hey brothers. Have you heard the symposium part on Human Apostates from the convention yet? You-tube:Beware of Apostates- Human Apostates – Jehovah’s Witnesses…I am truly disgusted at the low level they have sunk to. Apostates are human representatives of Satan, they are his helpers in the kitchen, cooking up wicked reasonings and seasoning their brew with poisonous lies. Again, they are mentally diseased, and should be avoided like a person carrying a deadly contagious infection. It’s making me feel really sick. They are talking about me. This is the worse type of character defamation I have ever heard, and it proves just how desperate they are. Yes, they have turned the FEAR DIAL way UP!!!

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    • miscreant droid says:

      I am deeply sympathetic with your anger, but I don’t think this is anything new. Just the same ol’ trash-talk they were up to last year.

      When I heard about the genocides in Darfur, I thought, “Hmm…bummer.” If I had family there or if I was there myself I would have been far more eloquent in my disapproval. Right now, my poor Rupunzel, you’re the target of their thoughtless campaign, so your ‘anger dial’ is through the roof. And with full justification. I know this is going to hurt for a while, but Christ is still with you. When they call you unrighteous they are condemning themselves. This will get easier as time goes on, and I’ll stand by you as long as you need me to. That’s what true christians do. Just ignore the name-callers.

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      • Rupunzelsawake says:

        Thankyou dear brother!! I know…They will be their own undoing, and it can’t happen soon enough. They are just starting to sound ridiculous. Hopefully the talk will raise a few eyebrows. WTBTS really CREATES the kind of apostates they talk about. They give themselves their own bad publicity. In the talk they said apostates aren’t content just to walk away from the religion they no longer believe. Huh??? We can walk away, but at the cost of losing our friends and families. Who wouldn’t be bitter and angry about that? Clearly the GB are insane.

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  38. miscreant droid says:

    “apostates aren’t content just to walk away”

    What? Are they required to become atheists? Do they think people can just get some kind of sci-fi ‘brainwipe’ and move on without ever talking about their situation? It might seem funny if we were looking at it from a distance.

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  39. Freethinkerinjah says:

    hi Rupunzelsawake and others that may be interested, thank you for all your posts. When I was going throught all the axing, I had no support group, Just Jehovah and Christ to talk to and it worked to keep me alive and well, and also a book I might recommend that really defines well what we all seem to be talking about and healing from –Spiritual Abuse. The book that help me was –The subtle power of spiritual abuse by Jeff Von Vonderen. You may be able to get it from a used book store or amazon books. What I really liked about it was no religion was singled out, just the problems within the system of a religion, and many quotes, and situations right out of the bible and how christ viewed shunning and other forms of spritiual abuse. This book drops the bomb on what ailing the WTBTS , and helps one recover from the wounds. Hope It will help another, bblessings to all and you are all in my prayers

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  40. Frank says:

    All this talk of “apostates” reminds me of another great one-liner from the Rick Fearon judicial case.

    “What’s worse – a Jehovah’s Witness child colouring a pumpkin or being affiliated with the UN for ten years?”

    This made me think how it is acceptable Organisationally for a congregation publisher to be disfellowshipped for using the swimming pool in a YMCA, but on the other hand stumbling a crowd of Jehovah’s Witnesses as they watch a member of the Governing Body go through the gates of the United Nations to use their library!! Class distinction(or Caste distinction) among God’s people? Unthinkable!

    I’ve been listening to the Jim Rizoli judicial case today. The single recording available on the Net is his appeal. For several minutes Rizoli correctly lists the reasons for his appeal – letters written against him, but not presented as evidence; congregation members who had claimed he was an apostate but who were never required to give their testimony in person during his case; and many others. This is called due process, none of which seemed to have been forthcoming. When it came, however, to the doubt that Rizoli’s personal beliefs were fully in line with the present teachings of the GB, the elders spoke up. The due process violations were totally ignored in favour of conviction on the basis of suspected differences of doctrinal viewpoint. From then on and to the end the ‘counsel’ only involved the authority of those placed in high positions in the congregation. They upheld the decision to disfellowhip.

    There’s a new document on JW Leaks, RE: Candance Conti case.

    Frank

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    • Rupunzelsawake says:

      Someone was disfellowshipped for using the YMCA swimming pool? I attended a course prescribed by my doctor at the YMCA. A sister in my former congregation was joined to the gym there and went about three times a week. I am seeing that there are different “standards” in my country. I don’t think anyone here sees a problem with using the YMCA facilities! Huh? What’s going on?

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  41. Rupunzelsawake says:

    Thankyou so much Freethinkerinjah! I will check that book out if I can find it. It may help others who follow too. I am hurt, and angry, but not devastated by any means. I feel a strong sense of approval from Jehovah, and Christ Jesus, which makes up for the hurt and anger. And He has given me a “flint-like” disposition!! But I do thank all here who are keeping me in their prayers and offering me advice and comfort!!

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  42. Freethinkerinjah says:

    You are most welcome, and I will keep you in my prayers to The Great Healer Jehovah. He will reveal to you so much and help you. I stake my life on it, because of the miracles I have personally wittnessed seeing how Jehovah saved me from deception and the lie and now I know the truth about the truth. But hey, the bible has in so many ways tried to point this out to me 40 years ago, and somehow I knew I had to wander in the wilderness for awhile before I would get to the sympolic promise land of truth. Painful journey , but totally worth it after all is said and done, and it keeps getting better, because I am learning about the real Jehovah, as he defines himself to me through trial and challenges, instead by what others defined him as according to man made ideas, and religious legalities and the traditions of man. No wonder, Jesus was so upset at the misleadings of the pharisis , I now understand the meaning Look out for the leaven of the pharissis , do not be mislead. If I had seen the lie right away it would not be a Deception. That’s how satan works.
    Take care , dear one ,Jesus knows his sheep, welcome to the flock May Jehovah be with you and comfort you in your tribulation.

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  43. miscreant droid says:

    “Beware the leavening of the Pharisees” Yup–I remember coming across that one and getting stuck in prayer ’til morning trying to figure out if I was being blasphemous by applying it to the elders. Thanks for bringing that one up, Freethinker. That scripture was a pivoting point for me a few years ago and really woke me up. The disciples had just had a feast with thousands from a few loaves and then traveled across the sea with Jesus. They had had words with the Pharisees on the other side and were heading back over the sea with a bit of crusty bread that wouldn’t fill anybody. They complained to Jesus and he told them to be wary of the leavening of the Pharisees. Later they were getting hungry again and complained some more, so Jesus replied, “Do you still not understand? Be wary of the leavening of the Pharisees.”

    An encounter with a poor spiritual adviser leaves you emptier than when you first set out. It was amazing to come across solid spiritual food when I started searching outside the WTBTS. I’m grateful for the first couple of years of study I had with the WTs and even all the comments, but when I grew past milk, there was no meat. And then the milk got rotten. And then I complained to Jesus and got, “be wary of the leavening of the Pharisees….” as an answer.

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  44. Rupunzelsawake says:

    They were nice heart felt comments brothers. Thankyou. Jesus also said, in a slightly different context, that the leaven of the Pharisees was hypocrisy!! Do as they say, but not as they do!

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  45. Frank says:

    NEW June 3, 2013 – Conti v. Watchtower – Respondent’s Brief prepared by Rick Simons – A136641 (90 pages) – pdf

    I’ve read up to page 65 on this document. After what has transpired in the factual reporting of this case, I feel I cannot take anything serious that the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society says on morality ever again.

    It’s purely unacceptable that a Jehovah’s Witness congregation member can be disfellowshipped simply because he/she has a ‘bad attitude’ towards “God-given” authority” while this religious organisation shows flagrant indifference to the security of children within its responsibility and has almost no respect for “Caesar’s” law regarding the mandatory reporting of child abuse.

    If the WBTS wins this case based on the secular demand to respect their “First Amendment rights” (this ultimately is its only ‘defence’ legally) no Jehovah’s Witness child will be safe from potential sexual predators within the Organisation. That’s how serious it is.

    This makes recommended reading for anyone who believes the future of humanity depends on the safe passage of children from a happy and natural childhood to law-abiding and loving adulthood. Religion isn’t the answer, it’s part of the problem.

    Frank

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  46. danielB says:

    A week or so ago , my friend Eric who established this site , sent me an email about this subject Frank . I copied his message & am pasting it for the rest of you to read as well . You see , ‘JJ’/Eric knows that I have 5 daughters who had been defiled in like fashion in the ORGanization .

    (His email) :

    OMG I had to share this article with you…this lady Stephanie was abused by a pedophile at 14, and when she told her mother…she called the elders not the police. This scumbag pervert was never brought up on charges and is free to this day, even though he admitted his guilt.

    SO DISGUSTING! Something is seriously wrong with a religion that does this!

    The article is below:

    Child Abuse and Jehovah’s Witnesses
    June 4th, 2013

    By Stephanie H(…)

    If you found out that a man you trusted had molested your child, how would you feel? What would you do?

    Do you know if there are there pedophiles in your local Kingdom Hall?
    Do you know if there are there pedophiles in your local Kingdom Hall?
    For most parents their natural reactions would include anger, devastation, pain, and anguish. Many parents say they would need an “act of God” to prevent them from physically castrating the violator. Others would immediately call the police and try to have the man put away in prison for the rest of his natural life. All of these reactions make sense, considering the disgusting, cruel acts often committed against children — children who depend on their parents to protect them and come to their aid in situations too abysmal to comprehend.

    On the other hand, what if you were told it was more acceptable not to call the police? Instead, what if you were instructed that you must tell a member of your church clergy first and let him handle it? And what if you actually followed this instruction, and then find out that nothing was done to punish the perpetrator? What if the clergy members told you that there had to be “two witnesses who personally saw the man touch your child” in order for them to act? Would you let the matter go? Could you?

    That second scenario might seem outrageous to most people. No one could actually follow through with that ridiculous mandate – could they? Does this really happen? What are the facts?

    You might be surprised to learn that every day over 7 million Jehovah’s Witnesses follow that exact commandment. In spite of the fact that there have been thousands of cases of child molestation within the Watchtower organization, there are still no effective policies established to protect these innocent children. The reality is that organization’s current policies actually protect sexual offenders.

    Consider a portion of my own story:

    Stephanie Hammond
    The phone in my office rang. I looked at the caller ID and did not recognize the area code. I thought to myself, “I don’t know anyone in that area,” but after hesitating briefly decided to answer the phone anyway. I regretted my decision immediately.

    The man spoke. “Hi Stephanie,” he said.

    I froze. “I know that voice,” I thought.

    “This is Norman.”

    Yes, I definitely knew that voice. I felt my stomach tighten. “How did you get this number?” I challenged.

    He took a breath and then said, “I ran into your mother at the last district convention [an annual 3-day meeting of Jehovah’s Witnesses] and she gave it to me. I had a long conversation with her and told her how sorry I was for everything…,” he cleared his throat nervously, “that happened.”

    “Everything that happened?” I thought. Everything? Like taking advantage of me when I was an innocent, completely untouched teenager?

    I could feel the anger rising in my chest and my pulse quicken. I could feel beads of sweat forming on my forehead and heat filling my cheeks.

    “So why are you calling me? I don’t get it,” I said rigidly. My body was stiff and indignant.

    “Well, I wanted to apologize to you too.” He paused as if waiting for an answer. When I did not respond he continued, “I didn’t realize the pain I caused you. And, you know, I have children of my own…” he trailed off, again nervously clearing his throat. “Well, I guess I just would never want anyone to do what I did, you know, to my kids.”

    My mind was reeling as I tried to digest what he was saying. My mother ran into him? She was well aware what this man had done to me, and yet she gave him my phone number? She had to know that he intended to contact me, and yet didn’t even bother to tell me?

    After all of these years – after all of the pain, guilt and sadness I’d been carrying around — he dared to invade my existence now? I was furious.

    I took a deep breath, and willed my composure to return.

    “Norman, if you’re calling me in hopes of my absolving you of the guilt you feel over taking the innocence of a fourteen-year-old girl, then I am sorry to disappoint you.”

    “I just…,” he paused, “Your mom…she told me that you’re not really doing well in the truth* and I thought, you know…somehow that was related to what I did.”

    For a moment I considered his words. So he felt guilty? But I didn’t care. He is guilty. I felt absolutely no sympathy for him.

    I felt the heat of my anger rise into my face at the very thought of my mother discussing my lackluster involvement in her religion with this defiler of children.

    I pressed my lips together as if to trap the rage that was pooling in my mouth, primed to spew out at any moment with a flow of expletives. I sat in silence for a moment, and allowed my breathing to temporarily sedate my indignation.

    “Whether I’m in the organization or not is really none of your concern,” I finally replied, “And furthermore, what you did affected my entire life. Not just my stance on ‘the truth,’ as you put it.”

    He seemed unaffected by his quiet response, “Well, I just wanted to say I’m sorry. What you do with that is up to you.”

    I refused to allow him to see how troubled I was by his bold intrusion in my life.

    “Again, I have nothing else to say to you,” I responded. Then I simply said goodbye and hung up the phone.

    I stared at the receiver while my thoughts clouded my vision. In that instant, I felt like I was 14 again —violated, helpless, and numb.

    I picked up the phone again. Quickly and furiously I pressed the numeric combination that would eventually reach my mother.

    Each ring felt like an eternity. I was livid. How could she have even spoken to this man, let alone given him a way to reach me? What could she possibly have been thinking?

    She picked up the receiver.

    “Mom,” I said, and without waiting for her reply, continued, “please tell me why I got a phone call from Norman. Tell me why you thought it would be appropriate to give him my contact information!”

    I was so incensed I was shaking. Whose side was she on here? I would soon get my answer.

    “Stephanie. Calm down.” She said passively, “I saw him at the last district convention, and he approached me. He told me how sorry he was for what he did to you all those years ago.”

    I felt a pang in my stomach. He apologized to her? She wasn’t even there. And when I told her about what he did to me, she essentially did nothing. She told the elders in the congregation and reported back to me that we should “just leave it in Jehovah’s hands. He will correct it.”

    She went on, “The man I saw before me that day was broken. He was plagued with guilt over what he had done. I felt moved to embrace him and tell him that I forgive him, and I think you should too.” She was so matter-of-fact about it. Her response infuriated me.

    “You what?!” I cried back with a rising voice. Tears were welling in my eyes and I felt bile rising as my throat tightened. “You hugged him? You saw he was broken?” I was dizzy with rage and confusion. My voice cracked as I responded, “What about your daughter? I was broken fifteen years ago when he molested me and you did nothing!”

    “I went to the elders, Stephanie. It was your word against his. And you know just as well as I do, without two witnesses…”

    “Who cares about the elders?” I interrupted. “Why didn’t you go to the police?” Tears had finally made their escape from my eyes and were journeying down my cheeks.

    She sighed, and then seemingly annoyed replied, “Look Stephanie, we did it Jehovah’s way. The elders handled it. They didn’t let him attain to any higher privileges [rankings] in the congregation for a while. Jehovah dispenses discipline in his own time.”

    After hanging up the phone I felt disgusted and hurt. That very day I resolved to have nothing further to do with the Jehovah’s Witnesses and the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society. Although I did not realize it then, I would eventually be disowned and shunned by my mother and nearly my entire family because of my decision that day.

    I was raised in the high-control cult of Jehovah’s Witnesses and always knew about their policy that said, “There must be two or three eyewitnesses… no action can be taken if there is only one witness.” (Shepherd the Flock of God, pp. 72) My mother reminded me of this rule after I had told her about what had happened to me. Although my gut reaction told me this wasn’t normal, I didn’t question it. I accepted that my mother knew what was best for me. It wasn’t until I was an adult and started really doing my research that I realized not only how wrong it was, but how common child abuse (emotional, physical, and sexual) was within this cult.

    There are no champions for children inside the organization. These are not people who are genuinely looking out for the safety of your progeny. This a group that is so preoccupied with not bringing “public reproach” on itself and its leaders, that members essentially cover up the horrific acts being committed against innocents, even their own children. And because this group is so controlled, its members truly do not believe there is anything wrong or out of the ordinary going on. That belief, perhaps, is the most alarming part.

    This is why I was so excited when I found out about the work the group of Advocates for Awareness of Watchtower Abuses (AAWA) is doing. This group is really taking action to expose the harmful policies the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society is disseminating through Jehovah’s Witnesses. These policies are destroying childhoods, lives, and families. Those policies must be stopped.

    For more information on AAWA, visit their website atAAWA.co.

    A Silver Lining

    I am a relatively new ex-Jehovah’s Witness and find myself still struggling with the events that eventually led to my disassociation. I constantly remind myself that if those things had never occurred I would have never met and married the love of my life, nor have the beautiful family we’ve created with our three exquisite children. I would have never found my “voice” through writing. Nor would I have gathered the courage to speak out about the things that are clearly amiss and even perverse within the organization. I might still be living inside the organization, still accepting their illusions and relinquishing total control over my life to a group of old men.

    I’ve made the choice not to see myself as “a victim of the Watch Tower.” Each step I’ve taken toward getting my power back has been a small but delicious victory. I realize that there is a whole new life waiting outside the cult. I am truly grateful for being able to grasp my freedom!

    Stephanie with husband Terry and their family
    Stephanie with husband Terry and their family

    (Photos)

    You are so right-on / “spot-on” Frank .

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    • Rupunzelsawake says:

      Thanks for posting this here Daniel. It’s truly sickening. That poor sister. It’s a wonder her hurt and rage haven’t turned her inside-out and completely destroyed her. I’m so happy she found a “silver lining” in a lovely husband and beautiful children. Her story reminds us of how WT policy has the power to destroy and even end lives….the lives of YHWH’s precious little “sheep”.I can see Yeshua’s eye’s flaming with fire as he watches on the organisations “dirty little secret”! A secret that must come out for the whole world to see.

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  47. Freethinkerinjah says:

    It is interesting that if you put a lot of leaven in bread, it can expand so much, you get a lot of air bubbles and a lot of fluff, nothing to really sink your teeth in or get much bread to eat…ummm.

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  48. miscreant droid says:

    I keep getting distracted by the James Webb Space Telescope on my way here. Hi Rupunzel. Did you find any caster oil or garlic fries to vomit on que with? I suppose after all the fuss the forthcoming event is starting to feel insignificant to some degree. Sandra Bullock showed up for her Razzies award though, so you might show up for your df-ing just to be a good sport. I probably wouldn’t bother. How are you feeling?

    Or did it already pass?

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  49. Freethinkerinjah says:

    Burp!

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  50. Rupunzelsawake says:

    You brothers are so funny! I tried castor oil to bring on labour with my first baby. Not reccommended. Most of the action is at the other end!! No, don’t go there! My announcement is on Tuesday night. In the morning (before)I will be leaving letters in boxes about my “departure”.I will be attending for them all to see me walk out immediately afterwards. And that will be that! Wow Robot!!! Can you see the James Webb telescope? Cool!! My husbsand and I watch all the science docos on TV. I like to go to sleep to the sound of Professor Brian Cox’s voice!! Seriously!

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    • miscreant droid says:

      I meant I get distracted on my way to this web site because google gives me a beautiful image of the telescope just before I type in the “r”. The abbreviation for the James Webb Space Telescope is J.W.S.T., and when I’m checking in here at [JWST]ruggle it always pops up on my screen. I’m an astronomy junkie, so that’s just the kind of thing to make me pause for a bit.

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      • Rupunzelsawake says:

        Don’t i feel stupid. I was getting mixed up with the very large ground based telescope/observatory…..which will be in the middle of nowhere….I think, in Hawaii??? Am I right? Mmmm, now I just sound really dumb!!

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        • miscreant droid says:

          The Mauna Kea Observatory is in Hawaii. I’ve never been, but I’ve heard there’s a nearby hotel that caters to researchers by keeping a section cordoned off for daysleepers and a staff that runs the schedule accordingly. Must be nice. It’s 2:00 a.m. here in California. Are you just sitting down to lunch in New Zealand?

          I haven’t been keeping up on the ground based observatories. The ultra-spectrum ones like the James Webb are just too much fun!!!

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          • Rupunzelsawake says:

            At the moment in NZ it is 9.53 pm Saturday, June 15. I think I posted that last comment around tea time.

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  51. Frank says:

    DanielB

    Thanks for your moving and educational account involving the Jehovah’s Witness mother and victim daughter.

    One of the many issues that has preoccupied my thinking in recent months is the relationship between religious thinking and child sacrifice.

    Once I asked the question: What is the ethical and moral difference between destroying an entire people because it practiced child sacrifice and offering the children of that same culture up as “spoils of war”? Nations sacrifice their offspring to war, but this is deemed necessary. The sort of child sacrifice in your account was avoidable.

    One of the most insidious side-effects of years and years of indoctrination that some external circumstance will “fix” everything, is that all-important traits of natural love that a mother has for her daughter can be lost. This evident in the account you tell.

    I do not blame the mother for this.

    Rick Simons in his review of the Candace Conti case states that nowhere in the 1989 BOE letter is there clear reference to protecting the First Amendment rights of the victim and perpetrator. This was one of the many defences the WTBTS offered as mitigation in its defence. There is, however, more than one reference to the possibility of litigation against the Society. This is why the jury in the original case decided that malice was the motive behind the instructions to keep such matters “confidential.”

    Does the WTBTS believe that they are ‘doing things Jehovah’s way’? Yes I do, but under their Theocratic War Strategy policy it becomes obvious that the Organisation puts its own interest before those it apparently considers ‘acceptable collateral damage’ in favour of their religion’s good name. I can’t see this in any other way other than a willingness to perform child sacrifice for what they believe is for a higher purpose.

    If the self-confessed perpetrator in your account was genuinely repentant then he would have reported his crime to the police, done his time, and then asked for forgiveness.

    Thanks again for your moving account.

    Frank

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  52. Freethinkerinjah says:

    Hey Rupunzelsawake, I just had this crazy thought. you know the old saying , going out in a blaze of glory?
    Since Tuesday is your last day, farewell goodby and all that jazz, dress up for the occasion, like flamingo feathers or something wild, give them something to talk about and a memory of you. Well, anyway I thought it was a funny idea. Or you could tap dance out of there and blow kisses on the way out. I just think you could have some fun with while you are leaving. Cheers!

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    • Rupunzelsawake says:

      Hi Freethinker….yes, there have been a few suggestions as to the manner of my departure! You can read them on my thread, “Out of the Tower; Hooray” on the forum. (Introducing Yourself). Feel free to add more. Maybe I’ll put them all in a hat and get my husband to draw one out. Don’t think I could learn to tap-dance in time though!

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  53. Freethinkerinjah says:

    Hi Daniel, I also would like to thank you for posting your article about sexual abuse of children within the WTBTS , for this to me is the height of child sacrifice. In ancient times, children were sacrificed and died, but today sexual abused children still live as a breathing body but dead inside and that’s worse then a death sentence , and these children,live with that trauma every day of their lives, tortured, emotionally, spiritually, and phyically,
    A crime that’s just past off as -“Jehovah will take care of it.”. Jehovah had a lot to say about abortion and death of the unborn, when a child is abused he is spiritually aborted and killed. Well Jehovah will have a lot to say again when his wrath finally comes to a head-just a matter of time. My prayers to all the abused.

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  54. danielB says:

    Thank you Free , for your “thank you” .

    One thing can help immensely for our friends who were sexually abused as children , and this can even conclude the problem and it’s pains from there on out . In a word , I am referring to “Resolve” . That is , resolving the problem . This is possible with very little pain . Family Psychologists know what I am referring to . There are simple things to do , in order to put this behind them . I know of one thing in particular that works well .

    It is so refreshing to untangle a big mess !

    Want to know more ?

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  55. danielB says:

    Rapunzel , there is another more dynamic observatory that is high in the Andes Mountains . I saw a documentary on it . In some important ways it is the best on Earth ! (I got the right spelling here for Rapunzel – sorry if I seem like an English teacher . . . [OH DREAD!] ) !!!

    I’m posting a new subject today on this Forum , (Saturday in Oregon) , that tells how Our Doubts can work well for us .

    Title: “Beginning to doubt – That is the “Warning Sign” .

    I hope you are all stimulated with it .

    Thank you Frank , for your “thank you” , also .
    Well the SOCIETY’S “good name” is in the “IFFY” category from the world’s point of view these days . . . isn’t it .

    You said , “Does the WTBTS believe that they are ‘doing things Jehovah’s way’? Yes I do, but under their Theocratic War Strategy policy it becomes obvious that the Organisation puts its own interest before those it apparently considers ‘acceptable collateral damage’ in favour of their religion’s good name.”

    And you DID say , “Yes I do, BUT . . .” (caps mine).

    It’s the BUT that bites them in the end . They may be doing God’s will , but are they honorable vessels or , are they dishonorable ? – Romans 9:31

    You have such a good point in This comment ! :
    “If the self-confessed perpetrator in your account was genuinely repentant then he would have reported his crime to the police, done his time, and then asked for forgiveness.”

    I will add that if this were the Official Policy of “Jehovah’s Witnesses” , when these problems surface , the GB would be off the hook with men , and perhaps even with God .

    Brilliant !

    With you all in Christ . . .

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    • Rupunzelsawake says:

      I’ll forgive you for spelling my name right dear brother!!

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      • Chris says:

        Hi Rupunzel,
        I may have missed your comment on this, but how does your husband feel about you being DFed?
        I am about to start down the slippery slope myself after I wrote a lengthy response to my wife’s questioning me about what I thought of the ‘new’ understanding on the FDS. She showed it to an elder who told her that it was best I come to him, because if he had to come to me then things would take a different perspective.
        Talk about the sheep going to the shepherd!
        In the end he asked to have a chat with me this Monday evening. I feel surprisingly brave about it because I cannot resile from what I said, so the only way is forward. Yet the repercussions are serious for my marriage as my wife has become more & more entrenched in her defense of the GB as she sees me “being poisoned by Satan and apostates”. Such emotive expressions are hard to counter because all her reasoning is backed by what she sees as God’s visible organization. Like most JW she walks by sight, and to them the worldwide organization is as beautiful as the Temple was to the Jews. And we all know how that story ended don’t we :)

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        • Rupunzelsawake says:

          Hi Chris. I’m so sorry for your situation. You may not realise, but my husband is not a JW, yet he was invited to attend my judicial meeting with me!! At my meeting I emphatically stated that I was only there “falling on my sword” because my husband and kids were NOT in the organisation(kids unbaptised, thankfully) for me to be cut off from. I made quite a strong emotional defense for ones in your position (who are essentially hostages), and for others who have da’ed or been disfellowshipped in a manner beyond the intent of the scriptures. I will most likely, having thought and prayed about it, share the recording, very soon.

          My husband is very proud of me and he told the committee so. You will hear him in the recording as well! So, I’m afraid your situation is entirely different to mine. In a letter I wrote to all the cong elders I stated that I had been “stumbled” by the GB, and their latest “light”.Maybe if you put it this way, you can still have your say, yet not be viewed as “attacking” the GB outright. You are confused and stumbled. You seek an explanation. I also wrote letters to the GB seeking clarification on matters relating to the new light. I shared these with the elders. They were honest letters. They didn’t get me into trouble.Anyway, just something to think about. I’ll pray for you brother!

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  56. danielB says:

    ” Talk about the sheep going to the shepherd! ” ???

    … sounds more like sheep going to the Shearer ! Christ be with you Chris .

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  57. Chris says:

    Thanks Daniel, yes it all smacks of some form of confession to the priest doesn’t it. They have such a legalistic view of how their process is to be applied to “the sheep”.

    ‘If you have spoken to your wife and tried to reason with her from the scriptures then that indicates that you are spreading a false teaching, so you have to come to us first because that shows you are seeking help and readjustment. But if we need come to you that indicates we must provide counsel and discipline and protect the flock from apostate views’.

    We know that Jesus made it clear that if we have a complaint against our brother then we need go and lay it bare before them, yet that would be virtually impossible for any of us to do to the elder body, circuit overseer or GB.
    Many have tried and failed.
    Yet Paul was able to chastise Peter for his conduct and Peter humbly responded. The likelihood of those arrogant false prophets in New York accepting any form of counsel or correction is zero. The would rather be wrong and in control, than be seen to have their authority questioned.
    And so we come to the new understanding of the FDS, which further cements their right to name the colour and tell us what it is. Oddly enough, I am sure we all saw it coming didn’t we!

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  58. Frank says:

    Hi Chris. Sadly I feel the writing’s on the wall for you. Even if you give Biblical support for your ‘independent thinking’ this will do you no good. Matthew Barrie, whom I transcribed his JC for, used appropriate Scriptures to demonstrate his point – to no avail. Check any judicial committee recording and you’ll find out that truth is not the central theme – authority and power is.

    It’s a pity that our loved ones can be so naïve as not to realise that once you are ‘in the system’ there is no going back. Which ever way it goes the elder/elders concerned will require you either to fall on your sword or they’ll do it for you.

    You are right about the Jew’s view of the Temple as a talisman. Similarly so do those with Pharisaical natures. Two temples are gone, what does it matter if another one disappears? God has time on his side.

    Frank

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  59. miscreant droid says:

    Hi Chris,
    I’m in agreement with Frank on this one. It might be best to have a lawyer with you– that way they’ll go back to talk to their own legal department before df-ing you. They don’t want to deal with the courts if they can help it, so maybe just get some stern fellow who smiles like a shark to stand next to you and pretend he’s a lawyer so you don’t have to waste money on a real one. Nothing good will come from accepting this meeting. Pretty soon they’ll start advising your wife not to talk to you. She may even leave you on grounds of ‘spiritual endangerment’. I have seen very rational, thoughtful, intelligent people turn into monsters for their defense of what they believe is God’s will. I would defend God’s will just as thouroughly myself– I’ve just learned to view it more rationally according to my own standards.

    I wasn’t any different when I was one of them. Were you?

      (Quote)

  60. Frank says:

    Hi Miscreant Droid.

    With great respect to you, bringing a lawyer with someone up before “the beak” will invoke the fear the WTBTS has, as you say, to deal with any genuine justice representatives. Having gone though Rick Fearon’s JC recording recently, I know that elders are trained to refuse entry to a lawyer.

    One of the most bizarre and inconsistent thing about the WTBTS’s unbiblical policy of social shunning is that wive’s only have to ‘shun’ their married spouse’s ‘spiritually.’ This is supposed to show respect for God’s arrangement of marriage, but as is easily discerned, their draconian ‘law’ shows absolutely no respect for God’s arrangement of the family!

    Hi Chris.

    If it is at all possible, please make full recordings of ALL your discussions. On the Net this can make very important study material for others who are about to undergo this inquisitional process. Matthew Barrie made his recordings right from the time an elder all-but confessed his motive for stirring up other elders to put him through this proceeding (actually he recorded his previous “shepherding” discussion too). Now we have a full case from woe-to-go. Great stuff!

    If you have any conscientious problems with this idea, remember that the WTBTS doesn’t give you the basic human right to representation, and therefore your recording becomes your “second witness” to what takes place. To establish all things at the mouth of two witnesses IS Biblical!

    Good luck.

    Frank

      (Quote)

    • Rupunzelsawake says:

      Hey Frank, when will you record your own judicial proceedings and discussions? It would be very helpful if you were to provide some study material yourself!

        (Quote)

  61. Frank says:

    Hi Rupunzelsawake.

    I think I mentioned before that I am currently in ‘good standing’ with the WTBTS and am presently in a good position to do what I do.

    You can be sure that, should it come to it, I fully intend to record every conversation and interrogation I am put through. I am not afraid to do so and have been prepared for some time.

    I believe that all people in this position should give the WTBTS a run for its money – take advantage of steps they wish to take – “shepherding calls,” judicial hearing, and judicial appeal. I have listened and studied all available audio files on the Net (that I’m aware of) and am interested particularly in ethics and morals regarding the inequitable stand this religion takes against human rights conventions.

    I have no desire to destroy the Organisation, merely protest certain cruel policies.

    I also have no intention of “going out in a blaze of glory,” but I do believe in playing them at their own war-game.

    Frank

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    • Rupunzelsawake says:

      I can understand what you are saying Frank and I do agree that cruel policies and human rights are important issues. But some of us also have other motives in going through with “shepherding” and judicial proceedings. Motives like love for instance. There is a balancing act to be performed. I don’t think you will get very far by reviling when being reviled. You will just meet with fierce resistance. I hope you get my point dear brother!

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  62. danielB says:

    If the accused invites the elders over to his turf , this “lawyer” in attendance idea could work out well . The worst thing to happen would be that they would refuse to get down to business , or they would leave . Maybe they would not sweat it and go ahead and make a judicial meeting with you even with the man sitting there . How about a friendly lawyer relative ? It would be nice if you really had one . How about something like a patent attorney ?

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  63. danielB says:

    . . . He could be harmless to them . How about a stenographer friend even .?

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  64. Frank says:

    Hi Daniel. With the greatest respect to you, this is why I encourage people to workshop available JC recordings. There is one where an out-of-town non-Witness was allowed to ‘sit in,’ but this was wildly unique. As the Fearon case shows, NO second witness is allowed at these proceedings. This is obvious why not.

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    • Rupunzelsawake says:

      Hi Brothers! Just how many recordings are there on-line? Think I’ve only heard four. Are there more? It seems there is not uniformity or consistency in the way judicial matters are handled. The attitude of the elders seems to vary considerably also. It seems all are not following procedures form the shepherding book. Some are heavy handed and merciless, while others like mine are “soft”. The result still the same…EXECUTION!!

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  65. Frank says:

    Hi Repunzelsawake. Obviously I explained myself badly. I said later in the previous comment that I had no intention in going out in a blaze of glory. What I meant by this was that I will not deliberately provoke judicial proceedings.

    I am fully with you and encourage you, if you are still able, to take them right to appeal.

    Those of us who can maintain “confidentiality” (I use this word like the WTBTS does) will remain in a position of strength. If this breaks down then genuine martyrdom is the alternative.

    Thanks for pointing out the apparent inconsistency in my comment.

    Frank

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  66. Frank says:

    Hi Rupunzelsawake. It’s a dubious and probably inappropriate comparison, but I remember a documentary once where Hitler allowed his generals to make their own choices how to deal with resistance against the State as long as their decisions were in harmony with the principals of Nazism. Some were ‘merciful’ and others were brutal.

    Many elders must cringe when they are obliged to put orders before their own Christian conscience. Many, no doubt, are like us, they wish a return to genuine Christ-like standards that the Congregation keep the door open for those fail to understand the requirements and may return OF THEIR OWN VOLITION – not for state-law that members do the will of a central government.

    It surprised me how ‘kind’ and ‘patient’ some of the elders were in some of the cases. This is why I don’t wish any Jehovah’s Witness unnecessary harm, but there are major stumbling blocks to many who wish to enter the Christian Congregation from those who are bent on fundamentalist eisegetics when interpreting Scripture for ‘modern’ policies.

    It’s no wonder the GB want only 8 at the steering wheel rather than over 10,000!

    The files I know about are (public domain):
    JJ
    Jonathan Lee
    Rick Fearon
    Townsends (1984)
    Matthew Barrie
    Glasgow (hard to follow)
    Anondude (Youtube)

    Frank

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  67. danielB says:

    Just moving away from that Kingdom Hall’s territory could solve all of this legalistic mess . If I had it to do all over again , I would move away and not contact my JW family for quite a while . They usually didn’t want to find some disfellowshipping offence against such a person back then (1992) . But when I went back to visit my family within a year’s time , one of my daughters called “the elders” to let them know I was in town there , at her apartment . Then this band of 3 elders came to her place , and the PO cornered me on what they thought was a disfellowshipping infraction , and I received my decision in the mail in a week and a half . I had a problem with that presiding overseer during the previous year , behind closed doors “in the back room” , while I was still an elder . So when these 3 “brothers” later met with me at my daughter’s apartment , they did not follow the Watchtower procedure to first ascertain if I was repentant over what they concluded I had done . So they expediently got rid of me .

    I had hoped that they would have followed the Scriptural counsel in Matthew 18 first . But oh well . There have been thousands of other sincere worshipers of the True God , and footstep followers of His Son , who have had their faces rubbed in gravel by men like them .

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  68. miscreant droid says:

    That’s a rough story, danielB. I suppose I might be in the same circumstance. I moved for financial reasons, and my relations with the elders were pretty strained since one of them owed me a lot of money. When I asked for repayment arrangements to be made due to my need, they became concerned with random comments over the years that I’d made about blood and birthdays and timecards and 1914. I left on sour terms without any closure. When I started attending again in a new town I didn’t bother getting my card transferred since I don’t turn in the time I put in. Also, why let the rumors follow me since I’ve done nothing wrong?

    I rolled my eyes and walked away from one elder in my new hall when he started asking too many questions. They haven’t bothered me since.

    Thanks, Frank, for your comments. I suppose a lot of us are just discussing how to avoid trouble without considering the best scriptural route.

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  69. Frank says:

    Hi Daniel. You bring up yet another aspect of arrangements like this – lack of competence.

    The difference with “Satan’s World” in this matter is that the system set up ensures as much as it can against problems like personal grudges and hastily arranged court sessions. We may recall another such incident in the Bible itself regarding the founder of Christianity – illegal courts, witnesses who couldn’t agree, misunderstanding of the charges etc.

    But what would you expect from a system that has at its base, not Biblical justice, but expediency? The details often don’t matter in expediting what they call ‘justice.’

    Frank

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  70. danielB says:

    Frank , the best scriptural advise that I can offer you is , ” Get out of Babylon the Great , my people ” . It’s about time you flee .

    Yep Droid . Everyone who is anyone in a congregation of J-Dubs has to know everything about anyone who walks in through the kingdom hall doorway . That’s rather invasive , isn’t it ? . .

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    • miscreant droid says:

      Very true. At the hall I’m attending now, my first day in, every fourth person asked, “Are you just visiting with us today?” “Yes”, ought to be a sufficient answer. Still I’m not trying to be rude, so I remained polite for the next barrage of questions:

      “How long have you been in town?” “Where was your last hall?” “Do you have family here?” “Are they in the truth?” “What hall do they go to?” “Are you married?” “Where’s your wife?” “Who did you sleep with last night?” “How’d you get that mustard stain on your tie?” “Is that your truck out there?” “Can I see your license and registration, please?” “Do you like Kirk better than Picard?” “If a hen and a half can lay an egg and a half in a day and a half, how long will it take a monkey with a wooden leg to kick all the seeds out of a dill pickle?”

      I scared one sister off without meaning to. I was just staring at her for like thirty seconds during her inquisition of me. I couldn’t come up with a polite way to say I was done playing ‘twenty questions’ with her. I mean, a joke like, “All you’re getting from here on out is my name, rank, and serial number,” still comes off pretty rude in such an otherwise congenial setting with someone you don’t really know. I took too long figuring out how to dismiss her politely, so she must have become uncomfortable, then she left me alone.

      Just as well, I suppose.

        (Quote)

      • Rupunzelsawake says:

        Last time a brother stared at me for that long was when one of my front buttons had come undone.

          (Quote)

      • danielB says:

        HAH ! Droid . . .

        At times I have dropped it to kingdom halls after having been disfellowshipped . I have found that there is always a “way out” of having to answer those probing questions . I’ll do it in an honest way . There is always the opportunity to excuse one’s self from that conversation if necessary .

        Usually in such a setting , non-JWs will show enough regard for the new acquaintance to avoid seeming too nosey or even “meddling” . It’s just good etiquette . But the witness Grapevine Must Go On !!!

        And with prospective mates who are first introduced , it would be too forward to start right off asking a bunch of personal questions .

        By the way ; Kirk beats Picard , hands down !

          (Quote)

  71. Frank says:

    Daniel, you and I are in different places about religion. When I stopped going to meetings (drifting) I gave myself the education I should have before I ‘committed’ to anything. Nowadays, I deal only with facts and LOVE debates about reality and others’ perception of reality.

    I don’t feel the slightest disadvantaged where I am and the situation I’m in. If they leave me alone, that’s just fine.

    What fascinates me now is the religious mind and how it captures our imagination and inspires us. There is no emotional content at all and that’s how I like it. As I have stated on a number of occasions, I am a theistic agnostic and a sceptic. My leanings are towards the existence of a parallel universe with intelligent life (not ‘aliens’)because the universe has so many unanswered questions. But I have no logical reason for believing so – that’s my mystery. Care to debate that, anyone?

    My other present passion is ethics. I feel that passion also to contribute to the releasing of unnecessary misery from those still “related to me in the faith.”

    And besides, it’s fun being the Lone Ranger or The Scarlet Pimpernel.

    Frank

      (Quote)

  72. danielB says:

    I see Frank . You probably explained how far your drifting away from the WTO has gone . So I would say that you have indeed left old Babylon . Sorry about my poor memory . . .

    I suppose the matter of parallel universes , as you refer to , is a matter of faith . -just as we trust in the reality of things unseen ; trusting in our Creator .

      (Quote)

  73. Frank says:

    What I needed to see the most from the WTBTS, Daniel, was concrete evidence of the agape love they so espouse. I don’t ever remember in my entire life every enjoying the Convention experience (except when they ended).

    Of course, the latest trendy rationalisation that religion makes for this obvious lack is that ‘humans are fallen creatures and that religion raises us up from their sinful existences’ as if this explains everything. It explains nothing. The very fact that so many extraordinary claims are made and that such ‘fine spiritual education’ is readily supplied and available over the course of a lifetime SHOULD mean that we have the right to expect better behaviour overall from Christians. I never saw that.

    And now I’m looking from the outside in I see the WTBTS engaging in corrupted activities and showing the characteristic arrogance one would expect as they attempt to hide these while demanding excellence from all their subordinates. If the rank-and-file fall into hard times, then it’s shame or shunning – not the greatest deal, is it? I think we can do better.

    Frank

      (Quote)

  74. A. Hope says:

    One recurring theme on this and other JW-themed websites is how so many have been ‘burned’ by the Watchtower system of worship. If we allow that the brothers in New York (if we care to call them that) are themselves victims of this system, then we can maybe start to move on from the anger and hurt that we’ve accumulated over the years. I’m just speaking for myself I guess… that’s what I’m trying to do. Frank, I appreciated what you said about the education you should’ve given yourself before you ‘committed.’ I regret not doing that too. I sometimes feel like a traitor the way I harbor so many disagreements with the WT, but still, for now, go to meetings and such. But they’re the ones who won’t let us just leave on friendly terms. They have to execute us spiritually, so they’ll have to deal with all of us ‘statistics’ who bring their numbers down. ha…
    I’m new to posting here, but my story is so similar to the many others I’ve read. At least we have a forum and a support system here. I also convene with some local brothers who are of like minds.

      (Quote)

  75. Frank says:

    I’m currently transcribing the Rick Fearon judicial case (2005). What I found interesting in the file(s) is that they seem to contain adequate evidence that the decision of the GB to consolidate its temporal power is based more on political contingency rather than divine providence, and this case may have been, at least partly, if not wholly the inspiration of this “new light.”

    Fearon believes himself to be of the Anointed. As a Watchman he believed he should stand up for Biblical standards when moral lines are crossed by his Brothers. This led him to protest outside his kingdom hall with banners expressing his indignation at the presence of paedophiles in the congregations, the WTBTS’s 10-year relationship with the UN, the cruel shunning policies etc.

    There are some great one-liners too. It’s such a pity that these cases don’t get more of an airing than they do. They readily demonstrate that there is a Conscientious Class of people who have “made sure of all things” and have expressed this as a challenge, not to “God-given authority,” but because they understand and can see the damage (or have experienced it)that such policies have caused and are causing over and over again.

    I hope the transcripts become a classic.

    Frank

      (Quote)

  76. Frank says:

    Hi A. Hope, welcome to the JW Struggle site. JJ has done others proud by providing a safe place where we can indeed talk things out – a much better support that leaves organised religion in the dust (actually, religion can be best described as an army rather than a place of helpful discussion and genuine refreshment, as many Witnesses will know).

    As you mention it, A., can you explain when it could be claimed that Governing Body members could ever be described as “victims of (their) own system,” please.

    For instance, if an alcoholic dies at the wheel of his car as a direct cause of his own inebriation, could we say it’s wrong for us to see this person as both perpetrator as well as victim?

    What I’m saying is that those with this level of power will never have to become victim of their own delusional policies. Even if you display the corpses of the disenfranchised, the lonely, the dispossessed before them, will they say anything other than, “Well, they brought it upon themselves. They failed to uphold our deity’s standards”?

    This is actually psychopathic thinking. One dictionary defines ‘psychopathic’ as: “Relating to or affected with an antisocial personality disorder.” When the natural love for our fellow humans gives way to taking on the personality of the Old Testament God as well as the survival tactic of organisational expediency, there is not even empathy for the innocent left, such as it is in the inept and ineffectual Child Protection Policy of this religious organisation.

    It isn’t anger, but righteous indignation, I believe, that fuels most people here on this site. Indignation, not just that individual children will inevitably suffer for others’ sins, but that the future of this planet is in danger because this generation is forced to go through this BS. Religion historically and presently is not backward in coming forward to contribute to this.

    Frank

      (Quote)

  77. Freethinkerinjah says:

    Hi Daniel, thanks for your return share of June 14, about child abuse. You asked if I would like to hear more, of course I always enjoy all your comments, I had family and friends in town for a few weeks and forgot to comment back thank you.

      (Quote)

  78. miscreant droid says:

    Just got some news today. A woman I knew in my old congregation got df-ed. I’ve got mixed feelings on this one. Nobody bad-mouthed me worse than her after I left. Still, I know that I should try and be loving. I’m actually afraid that if I try to contact her and offer sympathy she’ll run to the elders to get me df-ed for speaking to her. Hard to know from this distance if she might be waking up or just getting more deeply entrenched in the program.

    I’m open to advice—

      (Quote)

    • Loretta says:

      My experience is not any different than any of my fellow exJW family. What is interesting is what is happening right NOW with my 81 year old father. Understand my story goes back years when I decided I no longer wanted to be part of JWs due to my at the time husbands abuse and the fact that the Elders believed his lies over MY bruises. (he was an elder too)
      For years I attempted to mend a relationship with my father mother and brother. My brother told me he didnt have a sister, (i found out later he was involved at the exact time with unspeakable” works of the flesh” that eventually got him arrested as well as disfellowshiped himself.
      I wrote letter after letter to my parents asking them to just agree to disagree, and two years ago I showed up unannounced to their home to be shown the door when they realized i had a cross around my neck.
      Last year my mother died, so of course I contacted my father and immediately went to his side, He asked me not to go to her memorial service and the following dinner because of what his witness friends would do if they knew i was there, so out of respect for him I not only didnt see my mother during her final hours on earth here, I refrained from going to my own mothers funeral.
      NOW, nearly a year later, I am moving my father to My Home due to his health. I have introduced him to some witnesses from my State, and I even went so far as to go with him to a meeting there so he would be comfortable. (My father has been a faithful witness for 60 years, he was a MS and an Elder) most recently his only responsibility was to count the money in the contribution box. They quickly removed that responsibility from him when they became aware that I was at this home taking care of him and his needs.
      (this would be a good time to mention that since my mothers death, they havent bothered with him, very few have asked how he is, nobody bothered to say ” hey let me come by and change your sheets for you, wash your kitchen floor, or cook you a meal.)
      So Dad is alone everyday all day unless I am there with him. Recently Dad has decided to take me up on the offer to come live with me and let me be his caregiver. The Elders asked him this, ” What, are you trying to get yourself disfellowshiped by association with Loretta?
      This man is 81 years old with a Stroke three years ago, no wife and evidently no friends to help him out. They said why don,t you look into a small apartment, or an assisted living arrangement. Dad said , there is nothing wrong with my home, I just need help, are YOU going to take care of me, are YOU going to cut my toenails, change my sheets, and when I need it bath me?
      Now when he goes to the hall few speak to him, but he continues to defend them.
      Dad still thinks someday I might go back, and at his age I see no reason to make him go thru what I went thru, so I will continue to encourage him to go to his meetings near where I live, I wont be going with him but I will drive him over there and I will pick him up again.
      His story just proves to me this is not Gods organization, YOU WILL KNOW THEM BY THEIR WORKS!!!!!

      miscreant droid:
      Just got some news today.A woman I knew in my old congregation got df-ed.I’ve got mixed feelings on this one.Nobody bad-mouthed me worse than her after I left.Still, I know that I should try and be loving.I’m actually afraid that if I try to contact her and offer sympathy she’ll run to the elders to get me df-ed for speaking to her.Hard to know from this distance if she might be waking up or just getting more deeply entrenched in the program.

      I’m open to advice—

      Contact her!
      YOU more than anyone know her plight, If you no longer are in association with the congregation, Most there don’t speak to you anyway.
      Your heart is telling you to contact her or you wouldnt be here, asking for advise. I never felt more alone than I did right after “the anouncement”. follow your heart!

        (Quote)

  79. Frank says:

    Hi Droid. On one hand, the male-orientated Organisation is less likely to listen to this woman because their thinking is closer to the 19th century than the 21st.

    On the other hand, you are likely on the Wanted list and anything that is offered will be received “with thanks.”

    Don’t be hasty to do anything.

    Frank

      (Quote)

  80. danielB says:

    It’s so nice to get away from it and not have to be concerned about being “BUSTED!” by men .

    Maybe just sympathizing with , and giving some reassuring hope , would be a helpful first contact agenda with this newly DF’d woman ; and then , next conversation , give her some good direction .

    Be careful but reach her heart .

      (Quote)

  81. miscreant droid says:

    It’s a thirty five minute drive to go and see her, and I don’t have her number any longer. If she hadn’t been ‘gadding about’ and putting me down to the congregation so recently for something so trivial I might be more sympathetic. I’ll give the matter some prayerful consideration.

    “Don’t be hasty..” seems the best advice right now. Thanks guys.

      (Quote)

  82. danielB says:

    Maybe at some distant time you will just run into her somewhere . Just don’t do it in your car deliberately !!!

      (Quote)

    • miscreant droid says:

      haha–
      She’s not hanging around with her gang of crony back-biters anymore. I’ll wait ’til she gets re-instated before I run her down– get the whole lot of ’em.

        (Quote)

  83. christa says:

    Hi all :-) I’m new here. I watched all the videos on the apostate trial (thanks JJ!), they really helped me! I’ve been df’d for 5 years now (2nd time) and don’t think I will ever return. I’m living with my ‘worldly’ boyfriend and my two children. My parents are both active JW’s, my father is a Ministerial Servant. I have very limited contact with them. What infuriates me is that my brother and his wife (in-active Jw’s) are over my parents house pretty much every weekend for BBQ’s, family nights, etc. They are all going camping together next month, of course I’m not invited. My brother and sister in law lead an immoral life themselves but because they’ve walked away and have never been officially announced they are OK to socialize with. Whatever!!!! Screw all of them.

      (Quote)

  84. Frank says:

    Hi Christa. Welcome to the site. You raise one of the greatest inconsistencies about this crappy policy. Morality has little to do with it and philosophical technicalities do.

    However, on Freeminds there is an experience where one baptised JW will not associate with their non-JW family members, not because the latter have been disfellowshipped, but because they belong to a different church!

    The shunning policy brings out the psychopath (lack of or no empathy) in us, not the desire to be Christ-like.

    Frank

      (Quote)

  85. Frank says:

    I’ve just been on JW.org and I can find heaps on the joy of being a JW, but I can’t, for the life of me, find ANYTHING warning a potential disciple that they will be shunned, socially and spiritually, if they change their mind and want out.

    Can anyone help me?

    Also, can anyone show me where the updated and aggressive Watchtower Child Protection Policy is please.

    I would be grateful.

      (Quote)

  86. reader says:

    Dear All;
    That a person can be excluded from the Congregation by the local Elders, [not by others] is a Scriptural Pastoral duty.

    However; Religious bodies have often exceeded this remit. The Pope claims to be the vicar of Christ, but does not admit the said parishioner keeps missing confession. But far more groups than just Rome have added new sins to the list and become autocratic in method.

    Systems of power in religion are not the only ones in the World; The State and The Family, must also be recognized as must the directions and all examples Jehovah has given.

    Where these actions are not carried out as specified in Scripture or are extended into human rules; DARKNESS will be the lot of that congregation.

    O.k. There’s a lot of licking of wounds on this site and pouring of oil, some genuine and some maybe not so genuine. Where it is genuine mark this; that congregation will in its time suffer much more than you! What might be happening is Satan has got in, because they thought he could not.

    If a person is disfellowshipped, this does not cancel legal or contractual duties to that one, anyone who says it does is wrong Spiritually : Psm 15 v 4c words hold. And may become criminally liable.

    Family relationships are holy, state and family arranged things with oaths sworn before God, State & Families, to seek to exit these duties because of a condition which may be temporary is evil thinking or teaching or both. Malachi 2 v 13; today the result will be the same.

    Once any individual is disfellowshipped the Congregation should take the position of the father of the prodigal son, as far as it depends on them, it hopefully is only temporary.

    As for the latest FDS=GB thing, I suspect that in some countries to preach this is Treason while there is a living monarch. Could somebody else please, give a legal comment on that, to warn any who might publicly preach it. [if it is so]
    B

    more see; Naboth, Ahab, Jezebel, Superior authority, endured to End.

      (Quote)

  87. Frank says:

    Reader, I’m not sure if you just don’t have a suitable grasp of the language or you’re being intentionally vague, but let me attempt to persuade you not to have a dollar both ways.

    Christ said that works would determine whether someone (or an organisation) is his disciple. We can’t talk of love here as even the 911 terrorists believed they were doing mankind a favour through their actions.

    Of all those disfellowshipped and are socially shunned, about one third return to ‘the fold.’ Does this show the genuine effectiveness of social shunning to show love to those once disposed to the teachings of the WTBTS? Of this one-third, how many are motivated by love for God and his organisation, or merely to keep their family together? Those who are not “rightly disposed for everlasting life” (WTBTS propaganda)are then threatened with the loss of their life if they don’t become “correctly motivated.”

    The “pastoral duty” of which you speak applies ONLY to spiritual shunning. Of course, if anyone breaks the rules of “the club,” they are excluded. But this is solely from contact SPIRITUALLY with the congregation.

    It is easy demonising those who no longer wish to be part of “the club” but the WTBTS would better use their time training their acolytes how to avoid spiritual conversations with those excluded from the congregation. If social shunning was unambiguously part of Scripture, then wouldn’t we have assumed that such an issue would free of interpretation?

    And what should we make of an organisation which just won’t deal with the human damage done through indifference towards their most vulnerable congregations members? It’s true that the WTBTS are not directly implicated in child sexual abuse, but they are refusing to take the Christian view towards the secular authorities with regard to investigating and prosecuting those accused (as well as other secular crimes).

    Neither will they deal with the UN issue once and for all. All it would take would be a FACTUAL article(s) about their present relationship with the UN through the OSCE, the latter of which they appeal to regularly for assistance to preach the Good News. An apology at least for the ‘misunderstanding’ they claim the general public has would also earn them back some of the respect that they have lost.

    Frank

      (Quote)

    • reader says:

      Frank:
      Reader, I’m not sure if you just don’t have a suitable grasp of the language or you’re being intentionally vague, but let me attempt to persuade you not to have a dollar both ways.

      Christ said that works would determine whether someone (or an organisation) is his disciple. We can’t talk of love here as even the 911 terrorists believed they were doing mankind a favour through their actions.

      Of all those disfellowshipped and are socially shunned, about one third return to ‘the fold.’ Does this show the genuine effectiveness of social shunning to show love to those once disposed to the teachings of the WTBTS? Of this one-third, how many are motivated by love for God and his organisation, or merely to keep their family together? Those who are not “rightly disposed for everlasting life” (WTBTS propaganda)are then threatened with the loss of their life if they don’t become “correctly motivated.”

      The “pastoral duty” of which you speak applies ONLY to spiritual shunning. Of course, if anyone breaks the rules of “the club,” they are excluded. But this is solely from contact SPIRITUALLY with the congregation.

      It is easy demonising those who no longer wish to be part of “the club” but the WTBTS would better use their time training their acolytes how to avoid spiritual conversations with those excluded from the congregation. If social shunning was unambiguously part of Scripture, then wouldn’t we have assumed that such an issue would free of interpretation?

      And what should we make of an organisation which just won’t deal with the human damage done through indifference towards their most vulnerable congregations members? It’s true that the WTBTS are not directly implicated in child sexual abuse, but they are refusing to take the Christian view towards the secular authorities with regard to investigating and prosecuting those accused (as well as other secular crimes).

      Neither will they deal with the UN issue once and for all. All it would take would be a FACTUAL article(s) about their present relationship with the UN through the OSCE, the latter of which they appeal to regularly for assistance to preach the Good News. An apology at least for the ‘misunderstanding’ they claim the general public has would also earn them back some of the respect that they have lost.

      Frank

      Frank: Reader, I’m not sure if you just don’t have a suitable grasp of the language or you’re being intentionally vague, but let me attempt to persuade you not to have a dollar both ways.

      True I do not always grasp the English spoken in other places, but what you call vague has a reasons. There are always two sides to things, and sometimes even the most misguided may get it right.
      A £ each way;
      Should he hang or not?
      did he do the crime or not?
      Is the crime worthy of death?
      mitigating circumstances?
      B

        (Quote)

  88. Rupunzelsawake says:

    Hey brothers, have you seen the June Awake article on “How to End the Silent Treatment”? The context is to do with married couples giving each other the cold shoulder. They say it is used to “retaliate” and to “manipulate”. “Some use the silent treatment as a means to get what they want….He then gives his wife the silent treatment, SHUNNING her in the hope that she will BREAK DOWN and CONCEDE to his wishes” Sounds familiar!!

      (Quote)

  89. Frank says:

    Are you being Reader now, or “B”?

    What surprises me, judging by your past comments, that as a faithful JW with a presumed wisdom, why you don’t comment in refutation of some of the genuine issues I raise.

    No one here needs religious philosophy, we want believable answers, Reader – can you supply that and save us all?

    Frank

      (Quote)

    • Reader says:

      Dear Frank;
      Comments are only of that which I can give.
      There is no more surely that anyone can do.
      As only Jesus can save all, I am not qualified to fulfill your request.
      B

        (Quote)

  90. Frank says:

    Reader, as with English you seem to miss the finer points of sarcasm. I don’t want you to save me/us, I just want you to challenge my claims. I am looking for an opportunity to supply the proof.

    I must admit, though, you are one of the nicest Watchtower defenders I have encountered. Most are usually rude, arrogant, and very convinced they are right with no room for discussion.

    Keep it up.

    Frank

      (Quote)

  91. Reader says:

    Dear Frank;
    I’ve been faded 15 yrs.
    I am Bible centered in my reasoning and like fair-play, inc where WT concerned.

    I run a website based on my continuing study of Genesis/Daniel/Revelation, this keeps me on my toes.
    I found this & jwsurvey when doing some searching on some point, I think in Daniel and jwsurvey came up. Some of the things came as a surprise, -the shunning for example.

    I first had difficulty with WT dictated understanding when about 16 [now 63]. I walked away when something in my view the WT was doing was wrong when in mid/late forties, I will not discuss this.

    On WT joining itself to UN yes that was a shock too, that case of “right hand not knowing what the left was doing” wasn’t quite what Jesus had in mind.
    But as I think they got the identity of the thing causing desolation wrong in Daniel, this did not mark them with 666.
    Google “daniel eleven hyperlinked”

    I’ve had time to cool down and re organize myself. But I realize many on this site are still hurting, and for a time that can disrupt anybody’s thinking. An empathy born from experience.
    B

      (Quote)

  92. Frank says:

    Perhaps, Reader, you can confirm for us whether you are agnostic about the WTBTS’s policies or you are here to “call us home” to “God’s Organisation.”

    Frank

      (Quote)

    • Reader says:

      Dear All;
      Back in the sixties when 1975 got highlighted, I remember thinking what a stupid thing to say.

      The GB=FDS can’t fathom why they have to invent that.

      Now when Jesus appoints his FDS I will happily congratulate whoever as Jesus declared choice, I dare not presume before the King chooses. It is not my place.

      I am not here on any errand of any religious group of any kind, I am not associated with any group. -save I might at times promote my Independent website?

      I am convinced every word of Scripture will be understood before the end comes.

      At this time Christians in Christendom should get out of Babylon. WT has got that near right. After Babylon falls the remaining Christians can discuss and regroup.

      Call home, depends who; out here in the wilderness strong independents may survive, but some persons need the protection and company of a Congregation.

      Been publishing on the Internet over ten years now. So I might be setting you the bad example?
      B

      ps off to bed on uk summer time, UHT+1

        (Quote)

  93. Frank says:

    Reader. Are you a British resident who hales from another country?

    Obviously you are inspired by the Watchtower’s teachings. I am too, but there is a BIG difference between genuinely Biblically-supported teachings and eisegetically-derived policies; the latter of which, based on the reality of the effect on the innocent, could not be from a divine source – at least as I see it.

    Would you care to leave your blog address so that we may get to know you better?

    Frank

      (Quote)

  94. Rupunzelsawake says:

    Hi reader, thanks for clarifying your position for us. You are in good company here, (generally speaking of course). I don’t understand what surprised you about shunning. That it happens, or what? I agree with your last two posts and would be interested in your perspective on the “thing causing desolation” in Daniel, and checking out your website. I understand what you are saying about us former JWs hurting….It takes time to find your feet again and to separate your thoughts from your emotions sometimes…and your motives.

      (Quote)

  95. Reader says:

    Dear;…
    in approx order; …Frank & …Rupunzelsawake

    I take it you are in the USA, I am of British stock, [there are five countries in the UK], I suppose you could say an English person living in England UK.

    Brought up ‘in the truth’, so yes though disenting on some points I was enriched by my upbringing, and subscribe to the new World hope and generally like others who do.

    My Website blog is being targeted by spam of late, and my webhost is upgrading and I can’t do anything with at present.

    Surprised by the shunning, because Df was not common and the ones I remember were for Scriptural points. Never heard of anyone Df for not agreeing a point, till just. I used to get quite concerned that I did not agree all points, [turned down pioneering and elder because of it] I was once told -“Most do not know the Scriptures well enough to understand your problem.” I also remember a CS saying ” Welcome to those who are JW because of Watchtower and those who are JW in spite of Watchtower” words in quotes will not be exact. So I found a good degree of tolerance to odd point differences, I should say I was discreet about who I spoke to.

    In the Daniel WT books the “Ships of Kittim” are said to be the British Navy in WW1. This forces the 1335 to be days and leaves little room for a years solution. But there really was a navy based in Cyprus which attacked and nearly killed a Roman [king of north] Emporer. “Battle of the Masts” is a rather unique historic happening, unexpected.
    http://yahweh-immanuel.info/sh.....ittim.html

    Hmm…… FDS only source of scriptural understanding I would not begrudge them that, but they then have to do it. I have found James 1 v 5 to be the case, I will let my readers decide how much. Ta, Jah.

    What some have said on this site could have happened to me when I was 16 or so, chilling. Because it meant that after leaving the place has changed so much.

      (Quote)

  96. Frank says:

    Hi Reader. Many have noted that the WTBTS is constantly dividing itself up into separate legal entities. It is believe they do this to avoid legal liability in child abuse cases and the like. I have seen no evidence of this, but certainly philosophically they like to say that the Watchtower printing organisation is not necessarily part of “Jehovah’s Witnesses.” This is meaningless, of course.

    But playing political games is common today with the WTBTS, applying constantly to the OSCE (affiliated with the UN) for assistance to preach the Good News in Europe.

    I personally don’t have a problem with spiritual shunning, but social shunning does nothing other than make people afraid for the wrong reasons. Respect, where it was once due, disappears and is replaced with an underground of dissension and resistance – called the Internet.

    In Egypt they can gather in the streets and demand a change in leadership and policy. No such avenue is open to the many good people who can see the cracks, even the gaping holes, in the edifice.

    Frank

      (Quote)

    • Reader says:

      Dear Frank;
      I haven’t followed the Society and what it does very much, just the Memorial each year and some snipets from family/friends. One cannot understand things from the outside as one would from within.
      I do see your point about it, as it seems to be run by persons who only listen to flaterers.
      B

        (Quote)

      • Frank says:

        Reader:
        Dear Frank;
        I haven’t followed the Society and what it does very much, just the Memorial each year and some snipets from family/friends. One cannot understand things from the outside as one would from within.
        I do see your point about it, as it seems to be run by persons who only listen to flaterers.
        B

        This is interesting what you say, Reader. I believe that one understands so much more about organisation, religion, and the religious mind by seeing things from the outside.

        I decided to get the education I was denied (by inference of what “the truth” taught me)and have looked into the arguments from atheism, and agnosticism. The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins even quotes several passages from the WTBTS’s Creation book to explode the ‘creation by chance’ myth as taught by creationists.

        He and other atheists like Christopher Hitchens have shown me a different world that yet I am reluctant to buy into fully, but I can see why atheists sell more books than creationists!

        We see so much more looking in from the outside. I would recommend to any JW to “make sure of the more important things.”

        Frank

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        • Reader says:

          Dear Frank;
          Creationists are a particular branch of belief in a Creator, they go for a literal seven day creation, which they now have quite an amount of supporting evidence.
          I respect the work they have done and published, but I would suspect the creative days were a longer period.
          The following on my website is written with some Natural science & some mechanical engineering experience and my humour which might not suit all.

          http://yahweh-immanuel.info/du.....grees.html
          part of a series on the website listed under “zero verse zero”
          B

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  97. Rupunzelsawake says:

    Hi reader, your comments are very interesting, especially what you said the CO said: “in spite of the WT”.It has become apparent to me that many JWs don’t feel any qualms of conscience in believing one thing yet teaching another. An elder at my judicial committee admitted to me having some different views but said, “I can’t teach that because that is not what the faithful and discreet slave say”. He certainly is loyal to the GB. Last year I approached elders with my concerns (about some JW teachings) after stewing over them for years. I was very emotional because my conscience had been suffering. One kind elder said over and over, “You can’t keep things bottled up!!” and hugged me. The other one told me it was ok to have different ideas and to talk about them with the elders because they are there to help me. I felt it was appropriate to question the GB especially after their revelation last year that they have not yet been “appointed over all the master’s belongings”. That rung alarm bells for me! Anyway, I was called to a judicial meeting for apostasy. Now I am disfellowshipped.

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  98. Frank says:

    Ironic, isn’t it Rupunzel. Had you been engaging in ‘spreading teachings other than those believed by Jehovah’s Witnesses’ or do you feel that you were disfellowshipped for thought-crime only?

    The Matthew Barrie Glasgow JC shows clearly that Matthew was DFd for thought-crime and the appeal was upheld because Matthew would not discuss his private thoughts. Many accusations were made, but not one of them had any substance apart from hearsay and the word of two elders (one his fleshly brother) who had broken the sacredness of confidentiality. So to believe elders are like approachable fathers (priests)doesn’t stand up against the evidence.

    Were your circumstances similar, Rupunzel?

    Frank

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  99. Reader says:

    Dear Rupunzelsawake
    Seems you were tricked into the open, which then meant they can accuse you of being disruptive. A deciet to get their objective I’ve heard this is done by the police in places, but illegal in others as “Entrapment”. One could argue you only commited the error under their coersion or enticement.
    A massive shortcoming on the directive at: Romans 14 v 1 to 4 also 15 v 1
    This sounds very papist and this is one of the main issues of the Reformation, that a believer can approach God without a priest understanding the Scriptures for themselves.
    The fact is; if we continue to learn we will always be adjustimg our thinking and sometimes that causes difficulties.
    Well at least they can’t burn you at the stake now, but you have had a good look at the Middles Ages methods.
    This FaithMaster culture got started in 681ce and you might find this of interest:
    http://www.yahweh-immanuel.inf.....hurch.html
    It may be small comfort but “There but for the grace of God go I”.
    Daniel 11 v 32 to 35 with Matthew 24 v 9 to 13
    B

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  100. Reader says:

    Dear rapunzelsawake; [and those in similar circumstances.]
    My last reply seems to have got lost in the ether.
    But I realised I’d missed something important, so here that is;

    The power of prayer is INVIOLABLE.

    This only requires a suplicant [you] to address the request /thanks/ etc.
    The agency of Christ as intermediary.
    Jehovah who accepts the prayer.
    No religious body/organisation/church of any sort hung with Christ.
    It is Jesus who purchased the access to God.
    Use it they, nobody man or demon can stop you.
    God can give strenght to the inner spirit of a person so it does not give out, without anyone else knowing.

    Give thanks ask for strenght -you compose the rest.

    I understand I am talking to a sister who is alone, no father/husband at least as the case is presented.

    For the purpose of Scripture you a now a Man, as there is no lordship over you. Request of Jehovah addition help to be that spiritual manly though feminine person.

    If you were baptised under the newer dedication which includes the Society improperly in the Oath, -They have just cancelled that part for you. In prayer reaffirm the correct deication to Christ and God.

    And you are then correctly Baptised.

    When you have had time to think about it;
    Let those around you know- what you were NOT Dfd for, so you are not the victim of gossipers.

    STAND FIRM.

    B

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  101. Freethinkerinjah says:

    Dear Reader, I really enjoyed your comment on prayer and who we are to be dedicated to. Your thoughts reflect my realization from a few years ago, and that Ah ha moment of Christ is my only mediator, and Jehovah will listen to my prayers, has changed my life to a total spritiual paradise. Along with that, I remembered that Satan will stop at nothing to deceive many, even if it means using Jehovah’s name as a guareented stamp of approval on a organized religion that insists that because they use Jehovah’s name, that proves, of Jehovah’s approval. Must be working because, over 7million humans still belive that logic, as I used to, but it was the love among them that was the mark of God,s spirit and how they treated their fellow human beings regardless of sex, race, or religion. More shall be revealed!

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  102. Rupunzelsawake says:

    Thankyou Reader for those kind words and advice! JJ has posted the recording on my JH on his youtube channel now…You will see I wasn’t tricked into anything in an effort to get “evidence” on me..I volunteered the evidence on two previous meetings with elders. I always expected to be disfellowshipped because the “rules” state that if you “reject Jehovah’s representatives”, or organisation, then you are “apostate”. I had been very critical of the organisation with the elders, but I had not been “teaching” anyone anything. My criticisms were backed up with WT literature. I actually demanded to be disfellowshipped because at an earlier meeting I had been presented with only two options…in the elders words: “Resign or get kicked out!” I refused to resign as according to the WT this means to “renounce ones stand as a Christian”. Plus, I didn’t want to make it easy/more comfortable for them! Also the JH gave me opportunity to speak further. On the morning of my announcement I left letters with about 25 congregation members that I have known for many years telling them exactly why I was being disfellowhipped, and I was present for the announcement. My daughter came with me. I have a non-JW husband who is just wonderful and supportive! He was invited to attend my JH with me, believe it or not!
    Thankyou for those comforting and encouraging verses. I had hoped to read Isaiah 50:7-9 at my JH but didn’t get to.

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  103. Frank says:

    “Must be working because, over 7million humans still belive that logic, as I used to, but it was the love among them that was the mark of God,s spirit and how they treated their fellow human beings…” – Freethinkinginjah

    With just this reasoning, Free, Rupunzel, and Reader, we can drop the pretension that we should obliged to give any further credence (credo=belief=”I trust”)to any ability to receive moral judgements from such a source. After reading Rick Simons court conclusions in the Candace Conti case, it is clearly seen that there is a two-tiered class system with two different laws. The love for the congregation MUST be GREATER than the FDS’s (Governing body and their close associates/now only GB and the ‘Great Crowd’) and this agape love is glorified in how favourably they treat the most vulnerable.

    Pick any classic judicial hearing recording and you’ll find that scriptural discussion is culled in favour always of mindless acceptance of a set of regulations and policies that have almost nothing/nothing to do with Scripture. In short, there is only one rule to be abided by-obedience to a central authoritative body of men.

    Another pretense is that the elders are there to help people reason on “the truth.” The fact is, that once they know where the enquirer stands, even if your ‘sin’ is of thought only, there is no way back – hence, ‘jump or be pushed’ if there is refusal to ‘repent.’

    Personally I believe that such kangaroo arrangements should be allowed to go their full course including an appeal.

    In the Matthew Barrie case, he appealed on the basis that several irregularities had taken place” eg:

    Evidence for his conviction was taken from “confidential” testimony given within the context of shepherding (pastoral) calls.

    All other ‘evidence’ was clearly hearsay.

    Other than the squealing elders, no other witness was brought to verify the claims made

    It was never proved that Matthew had been engaged in ‘spreading beliefs other than those taught by Jehovah’s Witnesses (code for WT).

    The victim had evidence that he had been set up.

    Despite all these serious matters, the appeal committee had nothing on say on any of these but become lengthy and eloquent about Matthew’s view that the GB’s teachings came from God and are the only source of religious truth on Earth at this time.

    Frank

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    • Reader says:

      Frank: eloquent about Matthew’s view that the GB’s teachings came from God and are the only source of religious truth on Earth at this time.

      I understand that can only be said of the Bible itself.

      All others can only be teachers/explainers of the Bible.
      And subject to Acts 17 v 11.
      B

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  104. Reader says:

    Dear All; [esp the naughty Elders watching]

    Every new truth should be subject to Acts 17 v 11 wherever sourced from.

    At Judicial meetings take a note from Pilate and though you may be unable to stop things entirely, an honest “I find no fault in this man.” should not be held silently.
    Dfd on thoughts or questions really shows a lack of good teaching if the material in question is Scriptural.
    Its like doctors killing the patients they can’t cure.

    Be warned Satan has got in as he did the Apostlic congregations if it goes on like this the result will be the same.

    Jehovah took 2000 years to write the rule book and almost ever
    ybody has one what is unsuppoeted by Scripture should be thrown out.

    B

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  105. danielB says:

    Good comment Reader ! I completely agree . It seems most appropriate that if some elders see the need to talk in private with someone in their charge over serious matters , that they ought to approach this with a certain aura that was explained in Scripture during Apostolic Days . The predisposition to be of help ; keen understand of and use of God’s Word ; love prevailing ; a curative purpose ; etc. Of course the elders need to know first if there is legitimate reason for such a meeting . This is where initial primary fault lies with the way the JW religion does things . They become human rights violators and keep getting away with it due to legal loopholes . How DIFFERENT , and how CARRIED AWAY , in relation to the Bible’s direction on this subject !

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  106. Rupunzelsawake says:

    Just came across this on jw.org August 2013 WT on-line features:

    “Do You Shun Former Members of Your Religion?

    Those who were baptized as Jehovah’s Witnesses but no longer preach to others, perhaps even drifting away from association with fellow believers, are not shunned. In fact, we reach out to them and try to rekindle their spiritual interest.

    We do not automatically disfellowship someone who commits a serious sin. If, however, a baptized Witness makes a practice of breaking the Bible’s moral code and does not repent, he or she will be shunned or disfellowshipped. The Bible clearly states: “Remove the wicked man from among yourselves.”—1 Corinthians 5:13.

    What of a man who is disfellowshipped but whose wife and children are still Jehovah’s Witnesses? The religious ties he had with his family change, but blood ties remain. The marriage relationship and normal family affections and dealings continue.

    Disfellowshipped individuals may attend our religious services. If they wish, they may also receive spiritual counsel from congregation elders. The goal is to help each individual once more to qualify to be one of Jehovah’s Witnesses. Disfellowshipped people who reject improper conduct and demonstrate a sincere desire to live by the Bible’s standards are always welcome to become members of the congregation again.”

    Mmmm…they seem to have left something out here!! Based on this information I should not be shunned! More deliberately misleading propaganda!

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  107. Jesus Reigns says:

    It isn’t really to get one back to the fold…it’s to keep others from realizing their in a cult and leave. Where would they be without their following? Hmm…sounds a lot like another sect jesus condemns…

    Stephanie H:
    This is so disgusting to me. The amount of sheer control this organization has over its members is sickening. I also find it so ridiculous that they attempt to use shunning as a way to get the disfellowshipped one to “come to his senses” and return to the fold.Seriously?How does that work?

    Them: We hate you. You are dead to us.
    DF’ed person: I want to be a part of THAT! Sign me back up, Chuck.
    Them: We love you again…UNTIL we don’t again.
    DF’ed person: Sweet. I knew I made the right choice.

    C’mon. Really? That type of absolute conditional love makes absolutely no sense.If you really wanted your loved one to “return to the fold”, wouldn’t your desire be that they come back for JEHOVAH? Not to somehow regain acceptance from estranged family and fairweather friends? The whole idea is just ludicrous to me.

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  108. Loretta says:

    My experience is not any different than any of my fellow exJW family. What is interesting is what is happening right NOW with my 81 year old father. Understand my story goes back 25 years when I decided I no longer wanted to be part of JWs due to my at the time husbands abuse and the fact that the Elders believed his lies over MY bruises. (he was an elder too)
    For years I attempted to mend a relationship with my father mother and brother. My brother told me he didn’t have a sister, (i found out later he was involved at the exact time with unspeakable ” works of the flesh” that eventually got him arrested as well as disfellowshiped himself. He died 10 years ago, after being reinstated. Which he told me on his deathbed was so that he could have a relationship with my parents. He knew he was dying.
    I wrote letter after letter to my parents asking them to just agree to disagree, and two years ago I showed up unannounced to their home to be shown the door when they realized i had a cross around my neck.
    Last year my mother died, so of course I contacted my father and immediately went to his side, He asked me not to go to her memorial service and the following dinner because of what his witness friends would do if they knew i was there, so out of respect for him I not only didnt see my mother during her final hours on earth here, I refrained from going to my own mothers funeral.
    NOW, nearly a year later, I am moving my father to My Home due to his health. I have introduced him to some witnesses from my State, and I even went so far as to go with him to a meeting there so he would be comfortable. (My father has been a faithful witness for 60 years, he was a MS and an Elder) most recently his only responsibility was to count the money in the contribution box. They quickly removed that responsibility from him when they became aware that I was at this home taking care of him and his needs.
    (this would be a good time to mention that since my mothers death, they havent bothered with him, very few have asked how he is, nobody bothered to say ” hey let me come by and change your sheets for you, wash your kitchen floor, or cook you a meal.)
    So Dad is alone everyday all day unless I am there with him. Recently Dad has decided to take me up on the offer to come live with me and let me be his caregiver. The Elders asked him this, ” What, are you trying to get yourself disfellowshiped by association with Loretta?
    This man is 81 years old with a Stroke three years ago, no wife and evidently no friends to help him out. They said why don,t you look into a small apartment, or an assisted living arrangement. Dad said , there is nothing wrong with my home, I just need help, are YOU going to take care of me, are YOU going to cut my toenails, change my sheets, and when I need it bath me?
    Now when he goes to the hall few speak to him, but he continues to defend them.
    Dad still thinks someday I might go back, and at his age I see no reason to make him go thru what I went thru, so I will continue to encourage him to go to his meetings near where I live, I wont be going with him but I will drive him over there and I will pick him up again.
    His story just proves to me this is not Gods organization, YOU WILL KNOW THEM BY THEIR WORKS!!!!!

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