Jehovah’s Witnesses believe they are already speaking the pure language. This text comes from Zephaniah chap 3 vs.9. This chapter talks about a restoration of a remnant of Israel. Notice how well ancient Jerusalem pictures the totality of all Christian denominations in vs 2-4 “She has not obeyed; she has not accepted discipline. She has not trusted in Yahweh; she has not drawn near to her God. 3 The princes within her are roaring lions; her judges are wolves of the night, which leave nothing for the morning. 4 Her prophets are reckless- treacherous men. Her priests profane the sanctuary; they do violence to instruction.”

Many of the leaders of the church throughout history have been wolves. The “prophets” have made reckless predictions and prophesied falsely in the name of God. But then God says a change or a weeding out will happen, vs. 11 thru 13 says – “…For then I will remove your proud, arrogant people from among you, and you will never again be haughty on My holy mountain. 12 I will leave a meek and humble people among you, and they will take refuge in the name of Yahweh. 13 The remnant of Israel will no longer do wrong or tell lies; a deceitful tongue will not be found in their mouths. But they will pasture and lie down, with nothing to make them afraid.”

Vs. 11 says that God will remove from Israel (totality of all Christians without regard to denomination) those who are haughty and proud. Is there a text in the New Testament that corresponds to this separation? Yes, many. We have Jesus parable of the separation of the “weeds and the wheat” also the parable of the fish net and separation of the worthless and good fish, these parables are found in Matt. 13. Also there is a separation of the “sheep and the goats” in Matt. 25 as well as the parable of the faithful and discreet slave and the wicked one, the parable of the talents and so on. All these texts are pointing to the same event. A cleansing or separation of Jesus’ household.

Revelation 14:5 applies Zephaniah 3:13 to the 144,000. Rev 14:5 says -“No lie was found in their mouths; they are blameless.”  Therefore we know this passage that we read in Zephaniah chap 3: 12,13 is talking about the 144000. They are the “remnant of Israel” mentioned in verse 13. They would also be the “wheat” the “good fish” the “sheep” etc. This also is in agreement with Rev. 7:4 – “And I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144000 sealed from every tribe of the israelites.”

The 144000 don’t make up all of the “Israel of God”, only a part. The “Israel of God” would be all who claim to be Christians the faithful and the unfaithful. Vs. 4-8 of Rev. 7 shows how a remnant are chosen out of the “Israelites” as a whole. This corresponds also to the separation mentioned earlier. This is when they would speak the “pure language”.

Notice the 2nd part of Zephaniah 3:13 as copied above – “…But they will pasture and lie down, with nothing to make them afraid.” Again, this is describing the 144,000. Now compare this with the treatment given the “great crowd” in Rev. 7:17 -“For the Lamb who is at the center of the throne will shepherd them; He will guide them to springs of living waters, and God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.”

As considered in another post, 144,000 appears to be a figurative number. John does not see this group of 144000, he only hears the number of those sealed. (Rev 7:4) Later he sees this group as a great crowd in heaven. (Rev 7:9) This also happens with another group in Rev. 9:16,17 – “The number of mounted troops was 200 million, I heard their number. 17 This is how I saw the horses in my vision.” First John hears the number of a group and then he sees them. This also happens in Rev. 7 first he hears 144000 and then he sees a great crowd. I believe these groups are one and the same.

Both the great crowd and the 144000 are standing “before the throne”.(Rev 7:9  14:3) During the blowing of the fifth trumpet, the 144000 will still be on earth. Rev 9:4 says that the locusts were given permission to harm any who do not have God’s seal on their foreheads. If only the 144000 are sealed, and the great crowd is a separate, distinct group, would that mean the locusts do have permission to harm the great crowd? That would not make sense. The great crowd does have a seal on their forehead because they are the 144000.

There is evidence that not all faithful Christians will serve in the same capacity. The apostles for instance appear to have a foundation type position in New Jerusalem. Also there appears that someone will sit at Jesus’ left and one at his right, obviously positions of great importance. But I don’t think, for instance, that the 144000 will rule while the “great crowd” is a secondary and lower heavenly class. Could I be wrong? Certainly, my only desire is to be there to find out.

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92 Comments on The Pure Language and the 144000

  1. JJ says:

    Interesting post Andrew. The thought of the Great Crowd being a secondary, “not so holy” group with the heavenly hope goes back to the Bible Students and Pastor Russell. But as we are learning, none of us have all the answers.

    I do have one question- I’ve noticed that you quote scriptures from other translations. Which do you prefer to use, and why do you feel the need to use these and not the one most of us are familiar with, the New World Translation? I ask only for insight bro, not in an adversarial way :-)

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    • andrew says:

      I like to use the Holman Christian Standard Bible and the New Revised Standard Bible and others, sometimes just because the wording is not so familiar. That way I think of the meaning instead of just the wording that is so familiar.

      All bibles I believe are biased one way or another to whatever the translators personal doctrine thoughts were. I think this is a problem with the New World Translation. I feel it is a decent translation but I think we should use several translations.

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  2. greybeard says:

    Interesting post Andrew. Thank you!

    It seams like quite a coincidence as I was just thinking about this subject today for a while. I was thinking to myself that the 144,000 might be a symbolic number and the same group as the great crowd. And wala, you just posted this. Anyway, I have concluded in my thoughts that the great crowd, before the throne, is in heaven. So then i was wondering why wouldn’t they also be qualified to help those on the earth as the 144,000 I was taught would. I would think the qualification to rule one the earth would be being approved by Christ. The great crowd are approved too. Why can’t they rule/teach too? I believe you might be right about these being the same group. I am not sure. My desire is to be there to find out as well.

    Your brother,
    Greybeard

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  3. Dennis says:

    Very interesting tie in of Zephaniah with Revelation brother Andrew.

    Dennis

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  4. Jolly Roger says:

    Andy, first of all, I appreciate your effort in this very hazy subject of the 144k and who’s in Heaven and who’s on first and so forth, it is not easily reconciled no matter what the correct explanation might be. (I have stopped and started my reply to your article many times in an effort to find a correct tact to take. I don’t think there is a “correct” tact.) Truly, your article neither asks nor explains anything new in ref to the FDS and the anointed and the 144k/great crowd issue. One of the primary irritants that most folks seem to have to the idea of only 144k being designated to go to Heaven as “Kings and Priests” is that the rest of us, the apparent Hoi polloi of humanity, are somehow not “as good”, not “as holy”, just a group of lucky slackers who, somehow, managed to dodge God’s celestial bullets.

    Yet, when I ask them to explain why they thought we weren’t as favored or precious to Jehovah as the 144k, the only answer I ever seem to get is because “they get to go to Heaven”. Yet, if I back up and re-approach the subject without mentioning a finite number and phrase it as, “…and God through Jesus will decide who goes to Heaven and who doesn’t…” they are perfectly content.

    “Yeah,” a lot of them say, “That’s it. That’s the ‘Rapture’ you’re talking about!”

    Now, if you want an animated example of infinite recursion, ask the following, “Well, what if God, through Jesus, only choose 144,000 people to be ‘Raptured’?” (And they’re off!)

    I was always ending my study and research into this subject in dismal frustration until one day I began to realize that I what I was doing was the same as trying to figure out the purpose of an electronic computer by examining the specifications of the individual components (i.e. the resistors, capacitors, IC chips, etc). Unless I knew what the entire computer was and what it did beforehand, there was no way that I would ever be able to accurately discern what these electronic circuit cards in front of me were doing or why. There is a point with any subject where the examination of that subject gets so narrowed, so specific, that it loses all sense of logic or reason. For example, if you want to make sense of why you have a 5 volt power supply in your computer and kinda, sorta, what it’s function is, you have to have a certain amount of knowledge of electrical power, how that power is generated by the transformation of gravity, or heat, into mechanical energy and then into electricity and how that power is transmitted thru a power grid and in what form it is transmitted and so on. No, you don’t need to have the skill and knowledge to be able to design and build a nuclear power plant, but you have to kinda, sorta, know what electricity is and how it works.

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    • andrew says:

      I don’t think I’m taking isolated scriptures and trying to understand them without taking into consideration the bible message as a whole. That is why I tried to tie in Jesus’ parables, Zephaniah, and Revelation.
      That is your point, right?

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  5. greybeard says:

    So what’s your point Jolly Roger?

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  6. Jolly Roger says:

    GB, there was supposed to be a question at the end of my post, to whit:

    at the day after Armageddon, i.e. New System+1, what will be the condition of the people on Planet Earth?

    but the question didn’t make it. I apologize.

    As for your question:
    Truly, [the] article neither asks nor explains anything new in ref to the FDS and the anointed and the 144k/great crowd issue.

    The rest of my long-winded reply is there to demonstrate: nor is anything new even possible.

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    • greybeard says:

      Ecclesiastes 7:16 “Be not righteous over much; neither make thyself over wise: why shouldest thou destroy thyself”

      Isaiah 5:21 “Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes and clever in their own sight.”

      Romans 12:16, “New Living Translation (©2007)
      Live in harmony with each other. Don’t be too proud to enjoy the company of ordinary people. And don’t think you know it all!”

      Food for thought

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  7. greybeard says:

    His point was he believes the great crowd is in heaven. Also the 144,000 and great crowd are one and the same. The number 144,000 is symbolic not literal. This is different than the FDS and is a fairly new thought to many of us. I think you missed his point or I missed yours. I might have got lost in your resistors, transistors, transformers, power supply and gravity generated electricity. One of us must be off the grid 😉

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    • Jolly Roger says:

      GB,
      What was the answer to my question?

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      • greybeard says:

        JR,

        I don’t need nor do I “want an animated example of infinite recursion”. You are trying to defining an infinite statement using finite components 😉

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        • greybeard says:

          oooops, was that the wrong question? Maybe you meant this one: “at the day after Armageddon, i.e. New System+1, what will be the condition of the people on Planet Earth?” What does this question have to do with the price of tea in China? How does it relate to the subject? I would think they would all be deep in prayerful thankfulness that they are still alive. JW’s will be shocked that they are not the only ones there. What do you think?

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          • greybeard says:

            Or should I say, “what say you master?” You can call me “grasshopper” 😉

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          • Jolly Roger says:

            As you wish Grasshopper,
            You made the statement:
            “The great crowd are approved too. Why can’t they rule/teach too? I believe you might be right about these being the same group.”

            I asked the question that you seem to think is meaningless because I was giving you the benefit of the doubt (my mistake there) and took you at your word that you were going to Heaven and teach somebody something and be their priest and be a king, and all this based on about 50 words from a half-dozen or so scriptures. Sure you are, you neither know, nor apparently care, who these people are going to be, what their status will be, nor what you will be teaching them, what you will potentially have to UN-teach them, and so on. It’s like you have spent so much time staring at a single piece of a puzzle, a piece that looks like it has iron on it, and maybe it’s part of a building, so you are convinced the puzzle is a picture of the Eiffel Tower.

            “JW’s will be shocked that they are not the only ones there. What do you think?” The best answer to your question is the one I heard at a KH, that there will be three “shocks” each survivor will express: I can’t believe I made it! I can’t believe that guy made it! I can’t believe that other guy DIDN’T make it.

            “I would think they would all be deep in prayerful thankfulness that they are still alive. JW’s will be shocked that they are not the only ones there” Really? And who will all the non-JWs be thanking?

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  8. greybeard says:

    Andrew,

    I’ve been thinking about this. Maybe they are not one and the same. The 144,000 are said to be “sealed” the great crowd “no man can number”. The 144,000 chosen from 12 tribes of Israel. Great crowd from all nations. Maybe it is as it states, the 144,000 are Jews. Abrahams seed. Maybe the Christian Jews? I dunno I need to do more research on this and pray about it.

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    • andrew says:

      Greybeard:
      Consider the texts Rom. 2:28,29 Rom 9:6-8 and Gal. 3:29
      These texts seem to indicate that Christians are spiritual Israelites.
      Rev 5:10 also shows that the kings and priests would come from all nations and tongues just like the great crowd.

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  9. greybeard says:

    That’s true, but why the “sealed” number and not sealed?

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    • andrew says:

      Revelation doesn’t say that the Great Crowd are not sealed on the forehead. It lets us know the 144000/Great crowd are sealed. It says that the slaves of God are sealed. This seems to indicate all true servants of God are sealed. Not that one small group of faithful servants is and another large group of faithful servants isn’t.

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  10. Dennis says:

    GB

    My thought, Rev. 7:3 says, “Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees until we have sealed the bond-servants of our God on their foreheads.” It is the servents that are sealed not the number. This is symbolic language anyway as I see no one walking around with any distinguishing marks on their foreheads (would’nt that be nice). Rev. 7:4 just continues on with this symbolic language. Am I missing something?

    Dennis

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    • greybeard says:

      So far you have always been spot on to me Dennis. I am playing catchup to you and Andrew for sure on this subject. Thanks for answering my questions. I will review this more.

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  11. serein says:

    the sealed ones are the anointed and then great crowed, the rest on earth are the ubeleivers and unrightuse,who will be judged during the 1000 year judgment day,thats what i think anyways,i think that some of the great crowed will stay on earth and some will go heaven but not be kings with christ,so on that final day i think everyone will be alive and see jesus as he says every eye shall see him then thats when new scrolls are opend new rules and everyone sorts the heads out, im hoping to be one of the great crowed but if im not then il have to be happy with what ever comes my way, i do not beleive its going to be death for everyone and that judging starts from the begibing and not now, i also think that the only ones being judged now are the anointed ones.

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  12. greybeard says:

    Jolly Roger,

    You really do like to make things up as you go along. When did I say I thought I would rule in heaven as a king? It looks to me that you are here to be a critic and argue. That is not what I am here for. You come off with some off the wall comments. Sure some of it is funny but much of it lacks a point. Much of it is very condescending. As far as this comment you made to me, “It’s like you have spent so much time staring at a single piece of a puzzle, a piece that looks like it has iron on it, and maybe it’s part of a building, so you are convinced the puzzle is a picture of the Eiffel Tower.” What did I say to deserve this ridicule? Does my asking questions disturb you? I am still very much in the searching mode as I have only been an inactive JW for a short time. You shoot from the hip and most of your comments lack scripture. If you have a biblical opinion with biblical “proof” I am all ears. If you have loving council I am all ears too. But if you only want to make “witty” remarks and put down the conversation we are having, please spare us. Maybe I am taking you all wrong. I truly hope so. I will “give you the benefit of the doubt”. Please forgive me for being so direct in a public forum.

    Spoken with love for you as my brother,
    Greybeard

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  13. Dennis says:

    GB,

    Not to pile on to JR but I understand what you mean. Maybe I just don’t get his writing style but it’s as if he’s from Mars and I’m from Venus or something.

    Dennis

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  14. greybeard says:

    My opinion is he is trying to disrupt a spiritual conversation with babble. Anyone can read his comments on this thread. Notice when he didn’t have a point. I asked him, “so what’s your point?” He admits he didn’t make a point and then proceeds to ask a question off subject, again without a point. It is clear to me he is only trying to disrupt and not contribute but confuse the subject. He can only go so far with this type of behavior and ridicule before he gets removed from this forum. His style and behavior is why I no longer go to paradise cafe where this behavior is tolerated. I hope JJ is on to him as well.

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  15. serein says:

    its sad when people feel the need to be constantly trying to put some one down or twist things maybe its not ment or maybe some have got themselfs in to pa pickle about nothing everyone should have there opinions and not take offence and just not answer someone who wants to make peope feel like they are being get at,if some one made me feel like this on anothersite and i dint answer him at all and he gave up on me as i wasnt playing the game.

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  16. serein says:

    i always give my honest opinions and never scared to say what i think, and if anyone trys to get at me then they have a problem not me.so dont worry about it gb and just carry on being christian and loving to everyone,iv not been reading all the posts but somthing is up and peopel should be loving and not try to argue with some one this site i thought was the only one besides bible student site that i found to be a peacfull one let the ones who like an argument go to the other sites for one.

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  17. greybeard says:

    Yes Serein,

    Your right, I should just ignore it and not take the bait. Not play the game.

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    • Amos says:

      GB & All, it is just possible that JR has been sent here by the WTS to cause confusion & stir up trouble. I have noticed a couple of times that he said “to get back to the KH”, or something along those lines.
      As I said to him a couple of weeks ago, that I know he has an agenda & that I would not waste my time argueing with him, he has left me alone.
      Please be aware that there ARE wolves in sheeps clothing. We all know how treacherous the WTS is….stop at nothing to destroy anything that they see as a threat to themselves!!! (just like the adversary himself)

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      • greybeard says:

        Hi Amos,

        I guess we never know. I myself doubt if he is from WTS. Even though I don’t agree with them, I would think they would use different tactics if they do get involved in these sites. Tactics to find out who we are so they could DF us. Who knows… i shouldn’t have engaged him but I am sort of a wise guy myself at times so I took the bait. I’m working on it 😉

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  18. LonelySheep says:

    Guys, I’ve been lurking on this site for some time and I see that each one is searching for truth, after realising like myself that we have been mislead by the WT Society.

    In my quest I came across two sites that you may wish to consider looking into. They are all very supportive of people like me and you and rather than tear down they build up.

    The sites in question are as follow.

    http://e-jehovahs-witnesses.com
    http://perimeno.ca/Index.htm (very, very, very, good)
    http://e-watchman.com/ (also very good)

    I URGE ALL LOVERS OF TRUTH TO CHECK THESE SITES OUT. YOU WILL FIND REFRESHMENT FOR YOUR SOULS.

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  19. humbleman says:

    Hi brothers & sisters i hope your all doing well. i am a inactive jw at the moment. and feeling kind of confused. i have a great deal of respect for jws but i am starting to think we could be wrong on certain issues. around 6 months ago i prayed to Jehovah and i guess re dedicated my self to him and asked for forgiveness on the basis of Jesus sacrifice. ever since then i have been doing deep bible reading of the Greek scriptures and I’m constantly coming up with questions I’m driving my self and everyone around me crazy because i think so deeply lol some of my questions are related to this subject of the 144000. in the book of Galatians 4 v 27 – 28 it says this 27 For it is written: “Be glad, you barren woman who does not give birth; break out and cry aloud, you woman who does not have childbirth pains; for the children of the desolate woman are more numerous than [those] of her who has the husband.” 28 Now we, brothers, are children belonging to the promise the same as Isaac was.

    so we have paul speaking about to covenants and he says the children of the new covenant are more numerous than the old how can this be if only 144000 are in the new covenant. there where millions of israelites in the old covenant

    1 John 5 v 1 says this Everyone believing that Jesus is the Christ has been born from God, and everyone who loves the one that caused to be born loves him who has been born from that one

    there are so many scriptures john 3 v 3 john 3 v 3

    the bible says flesh and blood can not inherit Gods kingdom but Matthew 25 v 34 says this “Then the king will say to those on his right, ‘Come, YOU who have been blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for YOU from the founding of the world
    this scripture is then cross referenced to Romans 8 v 17 were it talks about the anointed inheriting the kingdom

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  20. humbleman says:

    i just wanted to leave one more reply i hope the way i have wrote things isn’t confusing i very rarely post on forums so i guess i will learn as i go on. i also just want to express how I’m feeling towards the jws i sincerely want them to have the truth. it would make my life so much easier. but i guess all i can do is read Gods word with a honest heart and pray for holy spirit and trust that no matter what Jehovah will direct me to where i need to be. sorry if I’m going on a bit. I’m just relived that I’m not the only one with this struggle. i am also happy to see there isn’t a lot of hatred towards jws on here because as far as I’m concerned we all worship the true God

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  21. I have studied with JWs and examined their literature. I have heard talks by governing body members and others. Their claim to speak a “pure language” is demonstrably false nonsense. They speak a corrupt language of jargon and doublespeak. This is easy to verify. Just look at their definition of the word “generation” and you will see there is nothing pure about their language at all.

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  22. pearl says:

    You all may want to consider that when we are told about the 144,000 being sealed, we are being told that this is the full number of those sealed.
    This represents all the sealed anointed, from the time of Christ to the end.
    However,
    The “great crowd” is also in heaven and sealed, yet we are told some things about them that are unique to this group, in comparison to the rest of the 144,000.
    We are told that they come through the great tribulation, in the time of the end.
    Not all 144,000 have gone through this great tribulation in the time of the end.
    The Great Crowd is a subset (remember your basic algebra?)
    of the 144,000, that is distinguished as the anointed who come through the greatest test at the end.
    They are a segment of the 144,000.

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    • Amos says:

      pearl:
      You all may want to consider that when we are told about the 144,000 being sealed, we are being told that this is the full number of those sealed.
      This represents all the sealed anointed, from the time of Christ to the end.
      However,
      The “great crowd” is also in heaven and sealed, yet we are told some things about them that are unique to this group, in comparison to the rest of the 144,000.
      We are told that they come through the great tribulation, in the time of the end.
      Not all 144,000 have gone through this great tribulation in the time of the end.
      The Great Crowd is a subset (remember your basic algebra?)
      of the 144,000, that is distinguished as the anointed who come through the greatest test at the end.
      They are a segment of the 144,000.

      Hello Pearl,

      Interesting thoughts, do you think that the 144,000 is a literal or symbolic number?
      My personal thoughts are that they are both chosen & anointed by the Father, taken from different time periods. I also believe the “faithful pre-christian” men & women are of the heavenly calling & are part of the first group, the 144K. I believe that Heb. 11, leaves no doubt of this, particularly in the light of the last two verses 39, 40. Of course a number of translations give the wrong rendering of these two verses.

      Amos

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      • pearl says:

        Hello Amos,
        I have seriously also considered the possibility that some from before Christ’s incarnation, are among the Chosen who had witness borne to them. I have found scriptures that seem to indicate both that this is possible, and that this is not likely; so I can not commit at this time.
        I do though, have a sense of “chosen” vs. “anointed” as not being distinguished necessarily by eras of time.
        When I come across those scriptures again, I’ll put ’em here.

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  23. John S. says:

    Amos and Pearl,It is good to see ones reaching for the better meaning of this symbolic group,which is definitely:1. The Bride 2.In heaven as immortals,priests,kings;the Kingdom 3.Christ’s “Brothers”,previously on earth. God and Christ having planned for Christ and other men to come to heaven as a protective government for the human race,would certainly give it prominence in the Revelation.The necessity for a ‘shield’ for Earth and men is seen before Adam and his wife even had their first child;they were attacked and conquered by another off-world race.(Eph.1:1-23)Do you think they are too stupid not to see this was inevitable?Just look at this Earth’s beauty as seen from space.And look how wonderful a creation men are.Now,(brothers only)look how beautiful women are,and the big bonus?This race PROCREATES.Satan,no doubt knew Christ was especially designated for all the priveleges ,including becoming a man himself and living among us.(iPet.1:12)As we can see,Satan has an inordinate jealousy/hatred of the Word and stole his inheritance,for the time being.He also sought to create this ,his own Kingdom,with his own “seed” by using women to have children by.And he brought down reinforcements to earth,other angels to accelerate his plan and in the process,defile the human genome,DNA,so the true “Seed”,the “Son of Man”,the Christ-King of mankind couldn’t be born from as such because mankind was no longer a pure race,but now was demon-defiled in it’s loins,so maybe he figured Jah would just give this race to him,letting him play with it and build empires,create his monsters,fight wars and get more involved with fleshly mores.This is what happened,as pre- flood Genesis says.(Gen.6)So the need to protect the human race by selecting a heavenly government,a shield for this planet is obvious, as we see what has already occurred.The scriptures have shown numerous times this was in the planning stage,before earth was even created;no the Kingdom government was no ’emergency provision’ to save the human race,but a planned super-race(New Creation in the likeness of His Son)for helping protect,educate,and lead the human race into this big Universe,where for all we know may have MANY other races of beings out there,all going thru some sort of growth experiences in the “Knowledge of Good and Bad” themselves,just as the angels are obviously.The 144,000 is the number showing it is a select class for this specific purpose,planned even before earth was created.(1Pet.1:1-4,Col.1:5,Eph.1:4,Gen.3:14,15)What are ya’ll’s thoughts on this?

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    • pearl says:

      Woah John,
      I could write a lot about all your statements. Galatians 4 helps infer that the Bride does not “materialize” until the anointed are resurrected. Until then, the covenant/woman is a conditional promise, to those who remain faithful to it. While on earth, that covenant is their mother. After conquering and being resurrected, they become the City and the Bride…and then they come “out of heaven”, bringing that covenant with them to the earth, for the rest of creation to be offered life.
      Regarding Satan, the scriptures show that he was in no way left out of the picture when creation was finished. He was privileged to be the protector of Adam and Eve’s lives, while “The Word” sustained their eternity. Satan did covet the worship and went for it, by offering humans contrary information to what the tree of life instructed. Satan’s words were lies, for the sake of his own glory. The “Word’s” life-sustaining instructions, were from the heavenly Father. These are the two original symbolic trees in the Garden…the fruit were their sayings. (Matt.12:33,37; John7:16,18) The same goes for each group of “seed”…from Satan, or from Christ.
      Jesus would not have had to repurchase humanity under the original plan. The solution for sin was arrived at and implemented, at Gen.3:16. “The founding of the world” may not be referring to Creation, but rather the initiation of Satan’s rule. Before this was allowed to go forward, Jehovah had arranged for the solution, which would include the woman’s seed (144,000). This does not necessitate a foreordained selection of individual identities, not yet in existence.
      The web of scriptures that consistently support this ideological framework are numerous. They are referred to in most of the articles I have written about related subjects.
      If interested, you are welcome to take a look.
      http://www.blogger.com/profile.....9590681155

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  24. Amos says:

    Hello Pearl & thank’s for your reply.

    I do agree with most of your reply to John S.

    With regard to the two groups of “seed”, I was of the view that Christ “was” the seed of Gen. 3:15. & that Christ’s brothers are also part of “that seed”, & not that they are “from Christ”, perhaps I didn’t understand your meaning.

    With regard to “The founding of the world”, I have had similar thoughts to yourself. While the woman’s seed was “chosen as a group”, each individual member may not have been known or chosen until they were alive as humans.

    Amos

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    • pearl says:

      Amos,
      Many think of the anointed as Christ’s brothers; which indeed they are/will be. But in being physical humans, we then conclude limitations based on that humanity.

      The spiritual relationship between Christ and the anointed is not limited by human constraints. The reality of the present and future Spiritual “relationship” between the Christ and his co-heirs, is so much more complex and rich.

      You see, the anointed are *children* of the Covenant *before* their resurrection.
      After being resurrected, perfected, and adopted by Jehovah, the promises of that covenant are fulfilled.
      These living stones are then installed as Jehovah’s real temple. The earthly one was only a shadow of this future reality. Jehovah’s spirit will then fully dwell in these who become His sons.

      When they then descend to earth, that City/Government/*Covenant*/Temple/Holy Spirit…will descend with them.

      They become the very owners/heirs of the life-giving covenant that previously gave life to them (Isa.62:5). Through it, they will then give life to others on earth.

      My relevant point, is this:
      Previous to these events in heaven, they still need to receive perfect spirit life. This is utterly dependent on the ransom. Christ resurrects them. HIS blood bought them (Rev.5:9,10).

      To receive their spirit life, they need both a mother and father.
      The anointed are children of the covenant (*mother* which gives THEM life) (previous to actually BECOMING the covenant to the rest of creation);
      They are also children, or “sons”, of Christ. At the moment of resurrection, Christ is responsible for their spirit life/their father.

      This MUST occur BEFORE they are fit for adoption by Jehovah, which is why Paul spoke of the adoption by the Father, as yet future (Rom.8:23).

      Previous to their adoption in heaven by Jehovah, the resurrected anointed, are Christ’s firstborn sons (by means of the *first* resurrection). [Rev.14:4c(“and to the Lamb”); Rev.20:6].

      Being spirit *”begotten”* is not yet being spiritually *born* again…just as being physically conceived, is not yet being born.
      No anointed are born again, before the woman/covenant gives birth to them; as sealed and in the Kingdom, or, (for those in the grave)… as resurrected(Rev.12:5).

      I know for us humans, we do not cross such boundaries in our physical relationships (brothers, sons, wife). But in spirit, these boundaries do not apply. Only the meanings of them help to illustrate spiritual realities in a limited way to us physical humans.

      Because Christ is the life-giver to the anointed, they are his Sons as well as his brothers. It is all a matter of which events are taking place between them, and at what time.
      Just like with humans,
      “Adoption” by Jehovah does not change the original natural father. It merely legally establishes the basis for inheritance with Christ, who is the natural/only begotten Son of God. ALL others come through Christ. Col.1:17,20

      I have a blog under construction about this. Sorry it is not done yet.
      For scriptural consideration of this point (Anointed as Jesus’ Sons), you may want to examine how Matt.24:47 relates to Psalm 45:16.

      When the article comes out (a bit of a magnum opus for me) there will be lots more scriptures for your examination, if you are interested.

        (Quote)

      • Amos says:

        Thank’s Pearl, for this reply.

        Ephesians gives us some very interesting information regarding the “brothers of Christ”. Ch 2:1-10
        1 “And you has he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
        2 Wherein in time past you walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now works in the children of disobedience:
        3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
        4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love with which he loved us,
        5 Even when we were dead in sins, has quickened us together with Christ, (by grace you are saved;)
        6 And has raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
        7 That in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
        8 For by grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
        9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
        10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to good works, which God has before ordained that we should walk in them.” (AKJ)

        Col.2:8-15;
        8 “See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ.
        9 For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form,
        10 and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority;
        11 and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ;
        12 having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.
        13 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions,
        14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.
        15 When He had disarmed the rulers and authorities, He made a public display of them, having triumphed over them through Him.” (NASB)

        Both of these passages, show us that Paul was speaking about the “here & now”, that is, once a person has been called, chosen & anointed by Holy Spirit, they are then, from that point onward, “sitting with Christ in heavenly places”, SPIRITUALLY, while still imperfect fleshly humans. This is where the “two natures in the child of God” comes in, that Paul speaks about.

        It’s also as David said in Ps. 51:10;
        10 “Create in me a clean heart, O God,”

        Just a few more thoughts.

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  25. John S. says:

    OK,Pearl,and thanks for talking,I have read much of your material,and find it refreshing in its originality.Yet,not to say it all sounds like Sci-Fi,as you also include scriptural back-up.But I especially appreciate your fresh approach to the material,deep thought and reasonable conclusions.Yet on the other hand,one must wonder if Jehovah is want to make the Bible a mystical puzzle so hard to understand that a commoner like myself,with no ancient-language skills could’t get the truth from seriously studying it in their own home.(John4:23,24)You are VERY deep, Ma’am,so you’re gonna have to walk me through the scriptural proof that the original trees in Eden are purely symbolic,if that’s what I believe you’ve inferred.(And by the way,I DO believe in deductive reasoning…”infer”…being one of my favorite postulates also) Respectfully yours…

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  26. Bob says:

    I’m a new comer to your web site, found it through “Friends of Jehovah’s Witnesses”. I’ve been trying to figure out whether the number 144,000 is literal or figurative and are they the same as the great multitude or great crowd. Does anyone have a thought how Rev 14:3 fits in? That scripture certainly seems to differentiate between the Great Crowd and the 144,000. Also Rev 3:21 talks about those worthy to sit on the throne with Jesus, cross-reference with Rev 20: 4-6 referring to those who have been given authority to judge. While Rev 7:9 says that the great multitude is standing in front of the throne. To me they seem to be two different classes of people, whether the number is literal or not. Any insight anyone may have would be appreciated. Thanks.

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  27. John S. says:

    Bob,I have tried twice to answer your wonderful question.I’d like to go back to friends of J.W.s site under “Anointed talk” to try as my blog,”Anointed Eagles Unite” is not up and running yet.

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  28. John S. says:

    Bob,I published a partial answer on my new blog”AnointedEaglesUnite”,tell me what you think.

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  29. John S. says:

    Andrew,you got me thinking along your train of thought concerning 144k being compared to the remnant of “Israel”(all Christendom)or those that stick to Jehovah,righteous,etc.We might then further understand the selection of “12,000 from each tribe” to show this is a selection,sheep from goats ,wheat from weeds,desirable fish in the net,etc. occurring as a result of Christ examining individuals from different religions of Christendom,to find the required qualities as he makes the selections(or Jehovah does this)of these “144,000”.I appreciate you paying attention to the scriptural cross references supplied in NWT.(if that’s how you got the Zeph. 3 application)…come on ,tell how u came up with it.

      (Quote)

    • andrew says:

      Most reference bibles will refer you from rev.14:5 to Zeph.3.

      I will say my view on the timing of the fulfillment of these verses has recently changed. But my view that the application of Zeph. 3 is to the 144000 remains. I believe it more likely now that these prophecies were fulfilled in the first century.

        (Quote)

  30. humbleman says:

    Hi Andrew do you believe there is more than one fulfillment with Zephaniah 3 v 13 ? if we only accept there is a single fulfillment with scripture this would make the great crowd a earthly class

    Isaiah 49 v 9-11
    10They will not go hungry, neither will they go thirsty, nor will parching heat or sun strike them. For the One who is having pity upon them will lead them, and by the springs of water he will conduct them.
    this is talking about the millennium compare revelation 7 v 16
    16They will hunger no more nor thirst anymore, neither will the sun beat down upon them nor any scorching heat, 17because the Lamb, who is in the midst of the throne, will shepherd them, and will guide them to fountains of waters of life. And God will wipe out every tear from their eyes.”
    my personal opinion is the scriptures have a fulfillment for the spiritual class. and for Israel and the nations after Armegeddon
    your bro humbleman

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  31. andrew says:

    Hi humbleman,

    My answer to your question would be too long to fit in a quick comment box. As ex-JWs many have preconceived ideas when we hear “great crowd” or “anointed”.

    Some ex-JWs continued to believe that today there exists 2 classes of Christians. The anointed who will rule with Jesus who are spirit begotton. All other “regular” Christians who will live on earth forever.

    I believe there is only one group: Christians. I believe the hope for all Christians is heavenly. The 144000 and the Great Crowd are both heavenly and probably describe the same group or perhaps the 144000 is a subset of the Great Crowd.

    Rev. 7 tells us the Great Crowd comes out of the Great Tribulation. There is only one Great Tribulation mentioned in the bible Matt. 24:21. According to my own very imperfect opinion I believe this great trib. referred to the events leading up to and including the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. There is no future Great tribulation, it is already past.

    This viewpoint is at such great odds from the normal viewpoint of prophecy that most Christians will reject it without even closely examining the evidence. I briefly talked about these subjects in the articles: Which generation and Which generation part 2.

      (Quote)

  32. Amos says:

    Hi Andrew,

    I agree with you on these points, but would like to add that IMHO, I see that “tribulation”, (NOT the Great Tribulation) has continued for the length of the Gospel Age. I believe that the G.T. occured in AD 70.
    Likewise, we are at great odds with the vast majority on this point.

      (Quote)

  33. humbleman says:

    Hi Brothers do you believe the terrible day of the lord took place in the first century as well? does it not seem like scriptures have two or three fulfillment’s ? Andrew i do agree with you there is only one calling this age and that’s the heavenly one.

      (Quote)

    • andrew says:

      humbleman,
      The opinion I express on this matter is my own, the others who write on this site will probably not agree with me.

      With that being said the simple answer would be yes.

      Notice in Acts 2:17 how Peter takes the prophecy in Joel and says it is being fulfilled back then “in the last days”. This pouring out of holy spirit, which happened on Penecost, would happen shortly before “the great and remarkable day of the Lord comes” according to Acts 2:20

      Malachi 4:5 says ” Look, I am going to send you Elijah the prophet before the great and awesome Day of the Lord comes”

      Elijah here of course was John the Baptist. He would come shortly before the great and awesome day of the Lord, which makes sense if that day happened in the first century.

      Do a word search on the term “last days” and you will find it always refers to the first century, not our day.

      I believe we are in the symbolic millenium right now and have been since the passing of the old Jewish system of things in 70 AD.

      As I mentioned before this viewpoint is uncommon and will be rejected by most before being considered. If you would like to consider this viewpoint more I would recommend the book “The Parousia” by James Stuart Russell. It is a free book that can be found online.

        (Quote)

  34. John S. says:

    Instead of yet one more Scotsman’s take,why don’t we just go to a Jewish,virgin man(he did not defile himself with women),was without blemish,and there was no falsehood found in his mouth?For here we see the description that can only fit Christ himself.And tho’ the W.T. ‘Society’ has done it’s best to keep its members from understanding the need for all to embrace the anointing of the Spirit,the hope of the heavenly kingdom,and revels in keeping it a mystical secret from anyone under their spell,the Lord and his Apostles taught no other hope than just that.It is still an open invitation to all.And this is an open letter to any so called “Bethel spies”,seeking to ferret out J.W.s who are trying to understand the tug of their hearts that the Holy Spirit is putting in them,to decipher for themselves the Lord’s words,”You people must be born again”.(present tense,not ‘you will be born again after you die and are resurrected’.Receiving the Holy Spirit into our mortal bodies is a real occurence that alters your conscience,your mind,drive,outlook.Its as real as the inspiration that gives musicians,artists,race car drivers,designers,or any other highly motivated person the urge to be what he was born to be,his God-given talent.This is what makes the world function as it does,the variety in gifts.Now those who are reborn to a new spirit,the heavenly calling,cannot stop questioning those who try to suppress them and their quest.How can you stop the musician from singing?artist from drawing,racer from speeding?Watch out you little weasels,snakes go down gopher holes too.You’re fighting against the Holy Spirit itself by trying to “expose,and punish” these so called ‘apostates’who are the real ones trying to respond to the leading of the spirit.Keep knocking,friends,the treasures are only found thru reading a lot of the Word,that is what’s meant by being born of the water.(John 3and 4)It really is so easy,as all of you are already very well-versed in scripture,probably more so than most 1st century Christians.Now try praying to our Father and asking Him to help you discern what is truth,I guarantee He would point you right back to the Bible and say,”Well what did my son say on that matter?”

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  35. John S. says:

    To Brother Andrew,thanks for your lucidity and good research .Thanks for thinking outside the box and approaching these subjects from differing perspectives. This shows careful,long hours of reading and meditating,and prayer.I,too,understand the field of Christian potential ‘Wheat’ is all Christendom.I find it disgraceful that Russell and the Witnesses have judged all Christianity to the Lake of Fire(and they say nominal Christianity has a bad heart condition,and can’t understand the amasing “Truths” they’re puking out)Think of how mad Christ is at any who have such a pretentious,hateful heart,to feel this way about these skinned and hungry sheep.It reminds me of the same attitude the Pharisees displayed when they said,”But this crowd that does not know the Law are accursed people.” John 7:49That’s why they wouldn’t let us go into any church even for a wedding or a funeral of our dear relatives,for we see they are normal people worshipping best they could.This is abhorrent to me,completely disgusting.

      (Quote)

    • Hi Brother John,

      Just a point of clarification. You said, “I find it disgraceful that Russell and the Witnesses have judged all Christianity to the Lake of Fire”.

      While this is absolutley true of our Witness brothers it is not so for Bible Students nor was it true of Russell himself. The “Ransom for ALL” is one of the biggest differances between the JW’s and the Bible Students. This teaching was changed under JF Rutherford. The Bible Students teach that all of mankind apart from the called out ones “The Church” will have have opportunity to come to Christ in the milleniulm. Then if they reject Jesus and his Father they will suffer the second death.

      Yours in Christ,
      Dennis

        (Quote)

  36. Ruth says:

    Brother John.
    Please for give me if I am misunderstanding your comments.
    Are you saying it is OK to stay in Christendom? False religions?
    Not to get out of her? Revelation 18: 2. 3. 4.

    Jesus said wolves would break in and steal the sheep after his going away.
    To day 2011 so many honest hearted people are walking away from Religion and organizations! I see it here in my home of Australia.

    They are being lead exclusively to Christ as he is the Way the truth and the life John14:6. Not to man made religions.

    I am seeing it is now a one on one relationship with Jesus.
    It is us ministering to the Lord not the churches ministering to us anymore. We true Christians do not trust there records of the past nor will we trust there future.

    In John chapter 4 Jesus talks to the Samaritan woman at the well and said true worshipers will worship in spirit and in truth.
    THE FATHER IS LOOKING FOR THESE ONES!
    We are working hard to help people see who Jesus really is in these places. To get out of her. Run for your lives. Come to the Lord for safety.
    They will not find him in religions anymore.

    If he Jesus sat up the back of these huge churches people would not even recognize him as they do not even recognize each other. Not saying there are not beautiful people in here. But Christ is puling them out. Why? they are signing and crying. There hearts cannot cope with the rot and decay of truth.

    I for one say the churches of this day and age have bad heart conditions. They have set up what suits there desires. Not what our Lord wants, just simple truths with simple love.
    Ruth.

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  37. John S. says:

    Right,sister Ruth,we are not the judge,each has his/her own relationship with God and Christ that stands or falls,according to Christ.One’sreligion has little to do with being saved it seems,as They see what the heart is.This view differs from Russellism and J.W.,that claim,”Nominal Christianity” is in spiritual darkness and won’t receive the Messianic mercies,or priveleges.

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  38. Willie says:

    Dear John S., You must have missed what Dennis said. Do yourself a favor and quit slandering Charles T. Russell. I put the Bible first and am not a Russellite, but it is obvious to anyone who has studied his writings that you have no earthly idea of the stature of the man or what he taught.

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  39. Disappointed says:

    I really enjoy this site and I think there are some wonderful discussions.I also think there are some wonderful personalities here. Sometimes it really feels like a little congregation. Personally I believe there are so many ‘deep’ things that we are never really going to find all the answers no matter how hard we try.I always think of Job, how he was a righteous and blameless man who showed complete integrity to God and who went though more than any man should. But even he showed a tendency to have a superiority over others proclaiming his own righteousness. And what did God say to him..”where did you happen to be when I founded the earth? tell me if you do know understanding..have you come to know because at that time you were being born and because in number your days are many?” Job 38:4,21 At the end of showing Job just how limited his knowledge was Job replies “Who is this that is obscuring counsel without knowledge? Therefore I talked, but I was not understanding. Things too wonderful for me which I do not know.” Job42:3 Also the words of Paul in Romans 11:33,34 “O the depth of God’s riches and wisdom and knowledge. How unsearchable his judgements are and past tracing out his ways are! For ‘who has come to know Jehovah’s mind or who has become his counsellor'” Jehovah will only allow us to understand certain things when He chooses to.This is probably the biggest issue I have with JWs. They claim like Job to know everything because Jehovah has chosen them. But so many times in the past have changed what they ‘know’ yet expect everyone else to follow it unquestioningly until that time they see fit to discard what they ‘know’ for something else.I see a time when like Job they will be standing before Jehovah and having to answer the same questions! (Sorry if I have gone off the subject Andrew,you made some very interesting points).

      (Quote)

    • Disappointed said, “Personally I believe there are so many ‘deep’ things that we are never really going to find all the answers no matter how hard we try.”

      To that i’ll say, Amen!

      Dennis

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  40. John S. says:

    Thanks for commenting,Dennis and Willie,and although you,each deny it,your words show your heart is much-aligned with details and worshipful honors for the man but in contrast,Rutherford,is vilified as the Devil incarnate,and repeatedly Bible Students vehemently deny the Witnesses’heritage as starting out as Bible Students,WHICH MEANS they were started by Russell.You can deny all you want,that’s the truth.This is standard Bible Student rhetoric,to try to erase Witness history with anything having to do with Russell.But our history books are full of Russell facts,and we claim him as our founder too,sorry,you don’t have a monopoly on the man,even his Watchtower is still the Winesses,the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society is still theirs,etc.The rights,corporations,land,teachings,Witnesses carried on the great preaching work,the largest door-to-door public preaching work the world has ever seen,of which I and others on this site had the privelege to engage in for 30 years.That’s history that we’re proud of.The good news of the Kingdom set up in 1914,world entered last days and will soon see the end of wickedness and wicked people at what is called Armageddon.A teaching that Russell published,and that I still advertise proudly.The teaching clearly set out as the 7 times360 years of Gentile rule,ending in 1914 was advertised by Russell,and his Watchtower,which still does today.I can see the truth to it,as the sign Jesus gave in M.24,25 still stands as testimony to the facts.One thing I want to say in deference to B.Russell;he did teach that the incorrigably wicked will be destroyed at Armageddon,something Rutherford and Witnesses today have altered,saying everybody not a Witness will perish in the fire.Bible Students of today also have altered Russell’s teachings here by saying Armageddon will not be a judgement upon the wicked,or anybody,that at some (not quite clearly explained way)all the evil seed(who are responsible for the horrible shape this world is in)will suddenly throw up their arms to heaven in a world-wide Hallelujah chorus,and start praising Earth’s new king and Kingdom.The current Bible Student belief(I have their books and have studied them carefully:’God’s Grand Plan of the Ages’,and have in fact distributed them in the door-to-door ministry here in MS for a time)that the only judgements to be meted out by God will occur during the Millenial reign.And that Armageddon is merely a natural Economic and Social meltdown whereby nations(here we go with huge generalities again)will finally see the error of their ways and then Jesus kindly asks them to “Move over now,and let me show you how it’s done.” Now personally,I have many of RUTHERFORD”S old books,’Religion’,’Children’,and others,and have read what I could of their 1920’s vile condemnation of eveything,as if he were a fanatical,power crased cigar-smoking union-boss,screaming revolt and takeover.This is what he did,took over;agreed.Did many Bible Students leave?Certainly,I would have left too.His attitude and writings turn my stomach,as I read them today in his old books.Does the Watchtower today do any different? No,as I have published here,(too many times,sorry)they claim they have the only knowledge to everlasting life,and that all the ‘Churches’ are part of ‘Babylon the Great’,and that the U.N.,(which secretly they were in bed with recently,and tried to hide the fact)will shortly destroy and God will kill everybody not a Witness.Now in answer to sister Ruth,who I have great respect and sympathy for all her trials and hard work in the Lord;I feel all people should learn what the Lord has to say on the pertinent issues,and put his mind in us,not any man’s.Its his spirit and leadership we should seek,and make the change now to unify behind Him.Efforts are being strenuously on this site by several to proselitise weak witnesses,not to Christ so much as to the 100 year-old teachings of Russell,at the urgings of present members of the Bible Student religion.As I was attracted to it at first,I can’t say there isn’t an appealing feature to their outward first appearance as an all-accepting religion that believes much of what the Bible really teaches.Each will decide that for himself,according to freedoms God gave us.But at the same time,I think the goal of these Bible students is quite apparent,as they are endeavoring to convince the Witnesses that their religion is the truth.When after others here and myself have studied that religion and see what we see are Biblical untruths.Sorry.Now this indeed is bogging the site down with the subject”Is Russell the Angelic Messenger to Mankind or Not?”One contributor,JWB was recently harranged off the site by this insistence on discussing,guess what;Russell history and doctrine,once,again,and…once more,etc.No apology was ever extended by those that did it.Apparently,they were glad to get him out of the way as he was too hot to handle anyway.What are we to make of all this.I ask the publisher of this blog to step in here please and clarify what he sees is occurring here and to make suggestions as to how to altar this J.W. struggle to define what it is we’re wanting to achieve here.My goal,in answer again,and I’m sorry I pinched noses of Bible Students when I quote things from Russell’s works that show he used similar all-condemning phraseology toward those in “nominal religion”.I have his books,and Bible Student books right here in front of me.I can quote right from Russell’s works to prove everything I said about him not only on this sight,but on the Bible Student’s site,which was under their subheading,’Anointed Talk’,which I noticed they took off after my postings.I don’t hate the man,I’m trzying to take the mind back to the Lord’s words on every subject we’ve discussed.I try to get the mind of Christ on every matter,not the dogma of these 100 nyear old religions we were influenced by.My motive is pure;to benefit by receiving the rebirth to thru the Hzoly Spirit.This teaching is shut out by Russell and Jehovah’s Witnesses as being only available to a very select remnant of a few remaining of 144,000.

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    • Dear Brother John,

      I would like to address a couple of points that you made in your comment. I apologize to all for the length of this reply.

      You said, “although you,each deny it,your words show your heart is much-aligned with (Russell on) details and worshipful honors for the man”.

      Yes I do share some beliefs with Russell but that in no way elevates the man above any other. I might agree with you on many things but that doesn’t mean that I hold you in any special regard as to your position in the body of Christ. There are also many beliefs that I do not share with Russell and the majority of Bible Students. I do not believe in an invisible presence whether it be 1874, 1914, or any other date. I believe that when Christ’s second advent occurs, it will be evident to all men, the church will experience a change of nature and will join their resurrected brothers and sisters at the SAME TIME to meet the Bride Groom in his glory. I do not believe that Russell nor the Governing Body nor any other one-man or representative ecclesiastical body is the faithful and discreet slave. As far as giving worshipful honors to Russell just because I share some doctrinal beliefs that he taught, I hope your kidding! I share some doctrinal beliefs with you and as long as that’s my understanding of the Bible I would defend those beliefs to others, but that in no way means that I am giving you worshipful honors. I’m sure you’ll agree that’s just a silly point for you to argue. It does however play into the myth that many Jehovah’s Witnesses and ex-Jehovah’s Witnesses perpetuate, that all Bible Student’s are worshipers of Russell simply because they believe certain of his doctrinal teachings to be correct. Admittedly there are some within the Bible Student movement that do spend too much time quoting Brother Russell just as most Witnesses spend to much time quoting the Society. This is something that Russell himself counseled against. This however is not true of all Bible Student’s and certainly not true of me.

      You said, “but in contrast, Rutherford, is vilified as the Devil incarnate”. Then, in a somewhat contradictory manner you go on to say this about Rutherford.

      “Now personally, I have many of RUTHERFORD”S old books, ’Religion’, ‘Children’, and others, and have read what I could of their 1920′s vile condemnation of everything, as if he were a fanatical, power crased cigar-smoking union-boss, screaming revolt and takeover. This is what he did, took over; agreed. Did many Bible Students leave? Certainly, I would have left too. His attitude and writings turn my stomach, as I read them today in his old books.”

      Brother, how is your characterization of Rutherford any different from that of the most staunch Bible Student? It would appear that you’re accusing us and other Bible Students of doing something that even you yourself are guilty of. I can only conclude that the opening few lines of your comment was an attempt at adding a Straw Man argument into the conversation while avoiding a specific comment on my reply to you earlier post (we’ll get to that at the end of this comment).

      You said, “Witnesses carried on the great preaching work,the largest door-to-door public preaching work the world has ever seen,of which I and others on this site had the privelege to engage in for 30 years.That’s history that we’re proud of.”

      I had been a JW since I was 2 years old (I am 49 now) and I for one am not proud of my part in spreading a false gospel for all those years. For going beyond what is written in order to spread the unique Biblical interpretations of the Watchtower Society. This made me and others like me, false teachers. I pray the Lord forgives me for my ignorance. I’m sure there are many on this site that would share this opinion.

      You said, “The good news of the Kingdom set up in 1914,world entered last days and will soon see the end of wickedness and wicked people at what is called Armageddon, A teaching that Russell published”

      Question, who do you understand to be the wicked people that will be destroyed at Armageddon? Russell never taught that Armageddon was a war to remove wicked mankind but rather Gods provision to remove all governments and institutions that are in conflict with the incoming Kingdom rule of Christ Jesus. He taught that all mankind would receive opportunity in the millennium to learn righteousness from our Lord Christ Jesus and those that rule as Kings and Priests with him. It was during the millennium that he taught, those who would not respond to the righteous rule of Christ Jesus would be destroyed, not at Armageddon. If you have a quote from Russell that is contrary to this thought, please provide it. If he ever said that those who would die during the great struggle of Armageddon would experience second death, I have not seen it in print. He also never taught that Christ began ruling invisibly in 1914 but rather 1874. Russell never published the above message that Jehovah’s Witnesses and many of us here published.

      You said, “I feel all people should learn what the Lord has to say on the pertinent issues,and put his mind in us,not any man’s”

      I agree with you, but we all stand on the shoulders of others who have gone before us. Who of us has not consulted a Bible commentary, read an opinion, heard a point from the platform or had someone in conversation make a sound scriptural point and then we have incorporated this into our theological world view? The problem that presents itself is that when we do this, we learn what OTHERS think the Lord has to say and it could be wrong. This applies to every religion, every person, every commentary, every website and blog. I would venture to say, all of us hold some incorrect theological belief. The attitude I see so many times on blogs such as this is, “You want to know what the Lord has to say, just read my posts”. Of course someones post or comment on the internet is not a “thus saith the Lord”.

      You said, “Efforts are being strenuously on this site by several to proselitise weak witnesses,not to Christ so much as to the 100 year-old teachings of Russell,at the urgings of present members of the Bible Student religion.”

      Who are the present members of the Bible Student religion that are urging people to come onto this site to proselytize? Nobody has sent me here. You have to let go of the belief that Bible Students on this site are here to convert people to Russell’s teachings. I don’t think anyone is here to convert anyone! I don’t think anyone’s here to talk about what Russell taught but rather what they’ve perceive the Bible message to be. Some of this may agree with Russell’s teachings and some of it may not.

      Pro 27:17 Iron sharpens iron, So one man sharpens another.

      Additionally, this and the “Friends” site provides a safe place for a recently awakened JW to get his feet under him again. Many newly awakened Jehovah’s Witnesses become atheists, agnostic or gravitate back into the errors of mainstream Christianity. Sites like the ones previously mentioned provide a good service to our brothers. You know, it’s only proselytizing when the point someone is putting forth does not agree with your own. Many however, might simply call this a conversation about biblical topics. Speaking of proselytizing the weak, the same could be said for all of our activities as Jehovah’s Witnesses out in the door-to-door work.

      You said, “I think the goal of these Bible students is quite apparent,as they are endeavoring to convince the Witnesses that their religion is the truth. When after others here and myself have studied that religion and see what we see are Biblical untruths

      OK, there is no Bible Student religion in the classical since. All Bible Students do not hold the exact same beliefs. Because you and others on this site might not agree with certain biblical interpretations that some put forth, does not establish your views as true and there’s as untrue. You both could be wrong. Ones salvation is not dependent upon one excepting as truth, either your interpretation or the Bible Students interpretation of biblical doctrine.

      You said, “Now this indeed is bogging the site down with the subject”Is Russell the Angelic Messenger to Mankind or Not?”

      This simple is not the case. If anyone is bogging down this site discussing Bible Student related issues it’s been initiated by yourself. Case in point, my entire reply was prompted by your earlier comment. You can’t make a comment and expect people not to reply to it or hold your feet to the fire regarding things that you posted.

      You said, “One contributor,JWB was recently harranged off the site by this insistence on discussing,guess what;Russell history and doctrine,once,again,and…once more,etc.No apology was ever extended by those that did it.Apparently,they were glad to get him out of the way as he was too hot to handle anyway.”

      I didn’t get this from JWB’s farewell post. Did I miss something? My impression is that JWB just thought his efforts would be better served pursuing other endeavors rather than the constant back-and-forth that occurs when discussing doctrinal matters on blogs such as this. I know that’s one reason that I seldom participate in these conversations myself. It just gets to time-consuming.

      You said, “I ask the publisher of this blog to step in here please and clarify what he sees is occurring here and to make suggestions as to how to altar this J.W. struggle to define what it is we’re wanting to achieve here.”

      What would you have JJ do, censor the site? If you stop talking about Bible Students and Russell’s teachings, that will cut down on at least 70% of what you object to. What this site is trying to achieve is defined at the top of every page on the right-hand side, check it out.

      You said, “I have his (Russell’s) books,and Bible Student books right here in front of me.I can quote right from Russell’s works to prove everything I said about him.

      Since you have those books handy, how about responding to my original reply. Here it is again.

      You said, “I find it disgraceful that Russell and the Witnesses have judged all Christianity to the Lake of Fire”.

      I said, “While this is absolutely true of our Witness brothers, it is not so for Bible Students nor was it true of Russell himself. The “Ransom for ALL” is one of the biggest differences between the JW’s and the Bible Students….The Bible Students (and Russell) teach that all of mankind apart from the called out ones “The Church” will have have opportunity to come to Christ in the milleniulm. Then if they reject Jesus and his Father they will suffer the second death.

      Please support your position above from a quote from one of Russell’s writings. I don’t think you can. I ask this for the sake of truth in the matter, not to defend Russell.

      There is more I could say but we all know I’ve already said way to much. Sorry for that.

      Offered in the spirit of truth and friendship,
      Dennis

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  41. John S. says:

    Excellent reasoning and I agree zwith your summations 100%

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  42. andrew says:

    Hello Disappointed,

    Another text is Ecclesiastes 8:17 ” I observed all the work of God [and concluded] that man is unable to discover the work that is done under the sun. Even though a man labors hard to explore it, he cannot find it; even if the wise man claims to know it, he is unable to discover it.”

    Eccl. 3:11 “…, but man cannot discover the work God has done from beginning to end.”

    In this life as you say we incapable of understanding all of God’s plan. Probably we don’t understand much beyond the basics.

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  43. John S. says:

    In addition and support of Andrew,some men claim knowledge of every aspect of life,God and scripture,and pretend to know the innermost mechanics of every relationship of Father and Son,as if they were God himself,or that by defining some mystery,they become its master.Every prophecy,mystery and enigma in the unfathomable word is defined as their knowledge.Even Solomon only wrote 1005 proverbs,some today lay claim to 50 times that in pages of Bible commentary.How true the INSPIRED proverb;”In the abundance of words there does not fail to be transgression,but the one keeping his lips in check is acting discreetly.”…I know,I need to’cure myself’ in this regard,and I’ll work on it.

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  44. John S. says:

    Dear Brother Dennis,…I like your style.Cool under fire,and politely asking for references.I was hoping you would answer that comment,as I respect your years of active service to Jehovah and the Kingdom work,regardless if we were misdirected.Now to answer your questions as to Rutherford,who I agreed with Bible Student’s resentment of his shrewd takeover`of the W.T. Society.I disagree with his “New Light”,teachings,methods,and tyrannical rule over Bible Students,and later what they became in 1931….Bible Students renamed as “Jehovah’s Witnesses”.Ok,now they’re truly being morphed into another religion,but it was a gradual ,insidious process,initiated by a seeming culprit bent on gathering his own following as he perceived in Russell.Am I pretty close here?Now as to Russell’s teaching about 1914 and the end of the Gentile rule of earth,as I quote fom page 96 of vol.2 of Studies in the Scriptures;”The degradation of Nebuchadnesser was typical of human degradation under beastly governments during seven symbolic times or years-a year for a day,2,520 years-from his day onward.And be it observed that this corresponds exactly with the seven times foretold upon Israel,which as we have seen,end in 1914.”..now to the top of p. 98;How refreshing the prospect brought to view at the close of these seven times.Neither Israel nor the world of mankind represented by that people will longer be trodden down,oppressed and misruled by beastly Gentile powers.The Kingdom of God and his Christ will then be established in the earth,and Israel and all the earth will be blessed under his righteous and rightful authority.” and then p.99..”In view of this strong Bible evidence concerning the times of the Gentiles,we consider it an established truth that the final end of the kingdoms of this world,and the full establishment of the Kingdom of God,will be accomplished near the end of 1915.Then the prayer of his Church ever since the Lord’s departure ,”Thy Kingdom come”,will be answered.”….”Daniel’s statement that God’s Kingdom will be set up,not after these kingdoms of earth are dissolved,but in their days,while they exist and still have power,and that is God’s Kingdom which shall break into pieces and consume all these Kingdoms(Dan.2:44)is worthy of our special cosideration.”..this point is now made in p.100;”That the Saints shall share in this work of breaking to pieces present Kingdoms,there can be no doubt.It is written…..”He that overcometh,and keepeth my works unto the end,to him I will give power over the nations,and he shall rle them with a rod of iron;as the vessels of a potter,shall they[the empires]be broken to pieces.”Rev.2:26,27″ Finally,page 101;”But let no one hastily infer a peaceable conversion of the nations be here symbolise;for many scriptures,such as Rev.11:17,18;Dan.12:1,2;2Thess.2:8;Psalm 149,and 47,teach the very opposite.”…But to my surprise,Russell now goes on to state,”Be not surprised,then,when in subsequent chapters we present proofs that the setting up of the Kingdom of God is already begun(this was written in 1889),that it is pointed out in prophecy as due to begin the exercise of power in a.d. 1878,and that the “Battle of the Great Day of God Almighty”(Rev.16:14)which will end in 1915,with the complete overthrow of earth’s present rulership,is already commenced.” So,and therefore,…ALL THINGS HAVING BEEN CONSIDERED…as we have reread some of the good man’s thoughts and understanding,I have had a change of heart toward him.I went through a considerable amount of reading to find these quotations,and although I feel justified in my statements,although I will readdress one issue in a moment,I feel a sympathy toward him out of love and appreciation for him burning the midnite oil(no electricity then)doing research and reading that Bible all night long probably many times.I know many of us do the same,here on this site,AND WILLINGLY,as it is as food for us.It is past 1:00 a.m. as I write,yet I am excited to be speaking to you and other readers on these subjects.I have been too hard on this man,who spent his whole life writing what he felt was the Bible truth.He got much of it right,as I even believe the 1914 conclusions myself were correct,although maybe you have another thought,Dennis.His main error as JWB’s research revealed was a 100 year miscalculation due to a scripture mistranslation as noted in his(JWB’s)comments elsewhere on this site.So that 6000 years since Adam’s implied creation occurred more in the range of 1974/5,as J.W.’s placed it. final point,I would like to digress,or reassess,my statements about Russell saying at Armageddon,that those who refuse to accept the Kingdom will be thrown into the Lake of Fire…but as you can read from the quotations above,he infers this in that the scriptures show the fiery final judgement for those not accepting.He applies these as occurring right after 1915,not at the end of the Millenium as Bible Students today imply,but during the Millenium as the Kingdom gains power,whatever that means.However it appears as one reads on that this Armageddon to him means a social revolution born out of conflict and economic disaster,and world upheaval.Of course these predictions are vague and generally his hypothesis stemming fro a reading of hundreds and thousands of related Bible verses.As much as he claimed the Holy Spirit was revealing to him and his the truth,it stands that we are very entitled to “test the inspired expression”(1John 4:1)as to whether these things did occur or were so.I think its pretty obvious we haven’t entered the Millenial rule of the Kingdom yet.As to the invisible presence of the Lord as King in 1914,and the Witness view that there was a war in heaven in that year that ousted Satan and the other angels,I still believe that,although Russell has a very different interpretation of Rev.12.And his interpretations of many events in that book,I won’t dare even to describe.So Dennis,thanks for the reply.I don’t know where we go from here.Like I said before,I apologise for being so hard on an anointed Christian that obviously was diong his best,did a lot of good,of which I agree with much,but not all,and certainly feel he was way out in left field much of the time,as we,no doubt about it are here,yet I think all of us here on this site,having seen the effects of predicting this date or that,and the Kingdom in 1975,have learned the hard way not to be as dogmatic as Russell,Rutherford,Frans and others we were influenced by.I will close my final point that Russell was hard-judging those that did not accept his teaching by quoting the passge from vol.2 p.28;”So too it is at the end of this age.Truth here,as there,seperates the earnest and humble,and leads them forward into the knowledge now due to such,and strengthens and enlightens them,that they may not stumble with the mass of nominal Christians;while the lukewarm and self-satisfied reject the truths here due,because blinded by their own improper condition of heart.Hence they will be rejected by the Lordas unworthy of becoming his bride.It is a serious error into which many may fallto suppose that a knowledge of God’s doings and plans is of little importance,that the graces of Christian characterare all that God requires,and that these are better conserved by ignorance.How differently the scriptures present the matter.They counsel us not only to cultivate the graces of the Christian character,but to preserve constantly that condition of heart which will enable us to discern the truth-especially that great truthof the Lord’s presence when due-and when dispensational changes take place.A knowledge of dispensational truth is quite as important in the end of this age as it was in the end of the Jewish age.Those who did not discern the truth then did not receive the favors then due.And just so in the end of this age;Those who cannot discern the truth now due,BEING BLINDED BY UNBELIEF AND WORLDLINESS,cannot receive special favors now due.They are not overcomers and hence are unfit to be the Bride of Christ,and to enter the glorious inheritance of the saintsas joint heirs with him.” So we see here,as in the J.W. belief,the assessmentis made that because these worldly,nominal Christians don’t accept these interpretations of his about 1878,1914,and all the other things he states in his books,theories of “God’s Plan of the Ages”,and all his constructions of doctrine in as of the reading;1886,these people were not going to be in the Bride class.So let it be written,so let it be done,brother Russell.Having made my point,I don’t feel that much better for it,as we could be encouraging a brotherhood instead of tearing down a friendship.

      (Quote)

    • Brother John,

      Thanks for the loving tone of your reply.

      You said, “Now as to Russell’s teaching about 1914 and the end of the Gentile rule of earth”

      You never talked about the end of Gentile rule in your previous post. You have now introduced something new to the conversation. You said that you had published the same truth as Russell which was, “The good news of the Kingdom SET UP in 1914,world ENTERED last days”. Now you are talking about the end of Gentile rule. The two events were not the same in Russells world view. He taught that the Kingdom was set up in 1878 and that the end of the Gentile Times in 1914 would usher in the FULL ESTABLISHMENT of that Kingdom rule on Earth. The last days were not to begin in 1914 in his view but were to END. He expected 1914 and then 1915 to be the end of the process not the beginning (not the setting up of the Kingdom but the full establishment of the Kingdom). In 1914 and then 1915 it was expected that the Church would be in glory. A couple of quotes that you provided above fully establishes that fact. Consider and compare;

      page 96 of vol.2 of Studies in the Scriptures;…now to the top of p. 98

      “And be it observed that this corresponds exactly with the seven times foretold upon Israel,which as we have seen,end in 1914.”..now to the top of p. 98;How refreshing the prospect brought to view at the close of these seven times.Neither Israel nor the world of mankind represented by that people will longer be trodden down,oppressed and misruled by beastly Gentile powers.The Kingdom of God and his Christ will then be (Note the following!) established in the earth,and Israel and all the earth will be blessed under his righteous and rightful authority.”

      Compare

      and then p.99..”In view of this strong Bible evidence concerning the times of the Gentiles,we consider it an established truth that the final end of the kingdoms of this world,and the FULL ESTABLISHMENT of the Kingdom of God,will be accomplished near the end of 1915.”….”Daniel’s statement that God’s Kingdom will be set up,not after these kingdoms of earth are dissolved,but in their days,while they exist and still have power,and that is God’s Kingdom which shall break into pieces and consume all these Kingdoms(Dan.2:44)is worthy of our special cosideration.”..

      The “start of the Kingdom in 1914″, FULL ESTABLISHMENT of the Kingdom in 1914 / 1915” and the “end of Gentile Rule” are related events but were not the same events to Russell and the early Bible Students. So your statement that you had published the same truth as Russell which was, “The good news of the Kingdom SET UP in 1914,world ENTERED last days” is factually incorrect. The quotes you provided testify to that fact.

      You then said, “”…But to my SUPRISE,Russell now goes on to state,”Be not surprised,then,when in subsequent chapters we present proofs that the setting up of the Kingdom of God is already begun(this was written in 1889),that it is pointed out in prophecy as due to begin the exercise of power in a.d. 1878,and that the “Battle of the Great Day of God Almighty”(Rev.16:14)which will end in 1915,with the complete overthrow of earth’s present rulership,is already commenced.”

      The reason this surprised you is that you failed to grasp the difference between the SETTING UP of the Kingdom and the FULL ESTABLISHMENT of the Kingdom in Russells previous statements. When this is understood then everything falls into place and this final statement is neither suprising nor contradictory. We also know that Russells expectations in this final quote were in error.

      You said, “His main error as JWB’s research revealed was a 100 year miscalculation due to a scripture mistranslation as noted in his(JWB’s)comments elsewhere on this site.”

      Russell had many false expectations and at times was to dogmatic in his views, I’ll give you that. To his credit he did however encourage ones with differing opinions to share them (but you better bring a scripture). But it does appear that as he got older he became firmly entrenched and dogmatic in his theological positions. A trap that is laid as a snare for us all and an example to learn from.

      You said, “I would like to digress,or reassess,my statements about Russell saying at Armageddon,that those who refuse to accept the Kingdom will be thrown into the Lake of Fire”

      This may be what you meant but it is not what you said. As a reminder you said, “I find it disgraceful that Russell and the Witnesses have judged all Christianity to the Lake of Fire”. There is a difference between the to statements. Your actual statement made it appear that he thought all who didn’t agree with him and were not found in his fellowship would experience second death at Armageddon. This was not the case as the “Ransom For All” doctrine is what separated him and the Bible Students today from JW’s. All must accept the Kingdom arrangement and the leadership of our Lord or they will go into second death. For Russell, it was a matter of timing. Russell did not view the vast majority of those he thought to be in “Nominal Christianity” as having willingly refused Kingdom authority but rather as ones that Satan had blinded to the point that they were unable to fully grasp the plan of God. They would however get a full and fair chance to do so when under Kingdom rulership. Regardless if one believes this doctrine is true or not, it is what he taught.

      You said, “He applies these as occurring right after 1915,not at the end of the Millennium as Bible Students today imply”

      “not at the end of the Millennium as Bible Students today imply”, that’s news to me. I’ve never seen this position put forth, “at the END of the Millennium”. I have seen the scripture in Isa. about a man dying at a 100 years old as a mere young boy quoted time and again. This is not consistent with the thought that the willfully wicked are destroyed at the END of the Millennium. Whether right or wrong, this is however consistent with what Russell taught.

      You said, “I think all of us here on this site,having seen the effects of predicting this date or that,and the Kingdom in 1975,have learned the hard way not to be as dogmatic”

      I’m in 100% agreement. That is why I don’t preach ANY date. To me the most important thing is to model Christ to others, to develop our Character’s and fully develop the fruitage of the spirit. To share the SIMPLE gospel of the Bible without a view to a specific date but with anticipation of an eternity with our Lord and his Father.

      You said, “So we see here,as in the J.W. belief,the assessmentis made that because these worldly,nominal Christians don’t accept these interpretations of his about 1878,1914,and all the other things he states in his books,theories of “God’s Plan of the Ages”,and all his constructions of doctrine in as of the reading;1886,these people were not going to be in the Bride class.”

      Again, this is not what you said. There is a difference between your statement above and “I find it disgraceful that Russell and the Witnesses have judged all Christianity to the Lake of Fire”. There is a difference between not being a part of the bride class and experiencing “Second Death” at Armageddon if you are found to be in “Nominal Christianity”.

      You said, “I don’t know where we go from here.Like I said before,I apologise for being so hard on an anointed Christian that obviously was diong his best,did a lot of good”

      I have enjoyed the exchange but will refrain from further comment on the subject as I feel I have sufficiently made my point. Anything further said on my part runs the risk of my being viewed as a Russell apologist, which I am not. He was wrong in many areas (in my view) just as we all are. For me this was about one thing, accurately presenting Russell’s views regardless if they are ultimately right or wrong.

      Peace my brother,
      Dennis

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  45. John S. says:

    Good job on that,Dennis,as I was not clear in my first statement,as Russell infers in the quoted piece that after Armageddon,some will oppose the transformation into the full rule of Christ and the anointed conquerers,the Bride,also given part in the role of smashing to pieces these rebellious Kings/kingdoms.As it occurs during the full reign ofChrist,and the Bride,as judges officiating during the Millenium,I suppose the argument could be made that these ones would not be coming back,ergo,the fiery lake.I should shut-up now,as you’ve passed on any further discussion on this.Thanks for the clarification,as I was reading,it started to get clearer what he was saying,but at 2:30 a.m.,I wanted it wrapped up.Like I said,my respect for him grows as I read more,yet he had said so much,that had time gone on,and he had lived much longer,his opposers would surely have had a field day with these grandiose interpretations,just as Watchtower has with the 1975,and the “generation” prophecy.That was the start of the grumbling against the Society,as many ,including myself,spent years (1973-1976)pioneering,sold homes,moved to areas of great need,etc.When the “A”-bomb didn’t drop,the apostasy started to grow,until it became war in the 80’s and 90’s.At this time I’m seeing it as a modern-day Exodus.I for one had seen the iron fist of the G.B. years before,as when I started pioneering,leaving a lucrative job behind,and was a 19 yr.-old ministerial servant,my father suddenly died from a heart attack.This was bad enough,but what was worse was that 3 years before,when I got baptised at 16,I was told I could not associate or talk to him even on the telephone,or I would be stripped of my priveleges.So I never got to see or speak to my father,who taught me the truth and took me to meetings,and arranged for brothers to come out to our house to study with me when I was growing up.He couldn’t kick the smoking habit.(1973 manifesto)When I was informed that he had died,and the funeral was the upcoming Saturday,I started to make arrangements to go.Yep,sure enough,3 elders had me come down to the Kingdom Hall to meet with them.I thought they were going to give their condolences,and give me some funds to travel the 350 miles to the funeral(I was dirt poor,and had to borrow a brother’s car to get there,and gas money),boy did I get a slap in the face.They said if I went they would revoke any priveleges I had and since I was not listening to their counsel against going to a d’f’shipped person’s funeral(quoting a question from the readers article from 1963),I would have to face a judicial committee upon my return.I recall having been out in service most that day,and as I had on a shirt and tie,I undid the tie,and threw it down onto the chair,as I stood up,kind of life the movies when the detective takes off his badge because he’s called to the carpet for s’thing,and told them they could go ahead and just disfellowship me right now as I was going.Then I lost it and started hollering that they had kept me from seeing my own loving father for the past 3 years,something that had broken his heart,as he would cry like a baby on the phone,when he called long distance on my birthdays,hoping to talk a little while,and that this treatment was surely one of the things that contributed to his death.I left,and went to my father’s funeral and got to talk to his hollowed out dead body and sob over him while I stroked his hair,there laying in his coffin.There was quite a controversy in that town,and in fact committee meetings convened to discuss whether his widow’s wishes could be carried out by an elder,as she asked if he would conduct the funeral.He had been attending many meetings and had a sister studying with her,and she was a believer,though not baptised.Finally the visiting C.O. was called to rule on it.To his credit,he allowed the brother to give the talk,which he did,and was warm and gracious saying obviously my father died with a repentant heart condition and was a true believer,and we could look forward to seeing him again in the res.(bully for him)That was really the beginning of my ‘Fall’ from the Watchtower graces,and started to open my eyes to the human,or inhumane aspect of the’Theocracy’.Sorry ,Dennis,I don’t know much about you,and don’t know you well enough to be getting into these emotional-filled discussions ,as if we could say anything in any manner,like two people who have known one another for years.I won’t even ask forgiveness for the smart-alecky tone of voice I possibly gave off in speaking.I will say you impress me with your clear explanations,and defended the dead brother’s understanding very well,as all readers here can see.Good for you.I always enjoy the comments you make,and look forward to other essays from you.Peace be with you.

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    • Dear Brother John,

      That is a heart breaking story. Very timely for me as I haven’t seen my Dad or Mom since May. Despite my not being disfellowshipped they and most of my family are shunning me. Dad is close to 70 so I’m not sure what the future holds for us. I am very bitter at the society though as they are taking something from me and my parents that I can never get back, just like they did to you (and so many others). My hearts with you brother as I know the pain you have due to that situation certianly still is. Your a good hearted brother.

      God bless you,

      Dennis

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      • Disappointed says:

        Dear bro John, I hope you don’t mind me commenting but my heart goes out to you! I must be a similar age to you as I pioneered those years in my teens too and remember the edict coming out about smoking being a disfellowshipping offence. I could never understand it. It’s an unclean and dangerous habit yes, but it’s also a personal choice and not one to be disfellowshipped over. I’ve had arguments with others over it. What a devastating outcome for both you and your father, the pain and hurt will last for a very long time, until you get to see him once more in the resurrection. Take heart in that dear brother, you WILL see him again! I have read so many other experiences like yours on other sites I’ve visited it makes me think of Matt 25:44,45. They will have a lot to answer for to the King!We must feel happy to share our experiences with each other,to me this is what this site is about, upbuilding encouragement to help us get through our struggle and I’m so happy I found it. Stay strong dear brother John and anything you are lacking Jehovah and his Son will fill your need.

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  46. John S. says:

    Thankyou both.They made us jump through every hoop they could think of,and took all our time and money.Our education possibilities,religious possibilities,financial,retirement,and on and on.Scolded more and shamed us to do more,and look down on the weak in our own ranks,causing discouragement and cliques among ourselves,had us boot out our baptised wee-teen children when they didn’t take to the truth,and had us leave our betrothed mates if they were “spiritually endangering” our meeting attendance.How many marriages went on the rocks because the man or wife pioneered in addition to all the meetings,and the spouse wasn’t a witness?And what about the bad association of being out with women not their wives for many hours to get time in,and the wife or husband was estranged,what are those stats,I’d like to know.All in the name of ‘serving Jehovah’.How do you think Father Jah felt about us being chased around the circus ring our whole lives,watching a cruel circus master crack the whip and yelling,”faster,faster”.They(G.B.)were never satisfied,seldom encouraging,constantly condemning our efforts as the ministry took the turn for the worst in the late 70’s and since.And we were blamed that we weren’t making the presentations correctly,or needed to go out at night,telephone or street witness,more hoops and tricks…And we should repent and want to go back into that life?I heard somebody say they don’t want you to hold your family’s hand when the prayer is said at meetings,Is that true?

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  47. John S. says:

    Ohhh Yesss…the great tobacco/smoker purge.My older sister and her husband d.f.ed,never did come back in-couldn’t quit.She loved us so much,took care of us when we were little kids,but in 1973,disfellowshipped.I didn’t see her again ’till my mother lay dying of cancer in a hospice,20 years later.What a disaster,and breaking up families is a Theocratic specialty.1000’s of heartbreaking stories continue to crunch along,like walking on broken glass.Poor Dennis,on this site.Just go over to their house and try to ignore their shunning,Dennis.I guarantee your Mom will relent first,then Dad.Do it.Don’t let them do this to you.There ought to be a class-action suit we can all file to get public awareness sympathy and support,Father Jah might bless that for us and future witnesses.

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  48. John S. says:

    I’d like to give a shout out to Humbleman,and Willie.Are you still there?There are comments you all have made to me,I’d like to reply to,and something that might interest you both,having to do with e.t.

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  49. John S. says:

    I would like to contact Futureman about the e.t. research.I have significant input on that subject,probably not of interest to others on this site.An alternative site might be preferable.

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  50. humbleman says:

    Hi Bro john im here :)

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  51. Willie says:

    Hi John S., I don’t know of an alternative site myself, but you can email me at willieofold@hotmail.com

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  52. JJ says:

    Brothers

    This thread is intended for comments about the article entitled “The Pure Language and the 144,000”.

    If you would like to discuss other topics, please if possible use our forum or the instant messaging system that is available through your dashboard once you are logged in.

    Thanks,
    JJ, Admin

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  53. John S. says:

    Thanks,JJ for the steer back to the subject,as that is how we are learning,working the subject with scriptural postulation.(wow)First,I agree with your hypothesis;1;Israel of God=all Christian faiths,claiming to be in 10-virgin status;in other words,millions have made a dedication to be disciples of Christ,and presented themselves to be his disciples by enrollment in some church,and baptism in the name of…,etc.-granted.We must assume these are trying to serve Christ and seek his spirit and favor ,expecting his blessings at his return.As in every religion,some are more educated,dedicated,sincere,etc. And as is also expected,some are hypocrites,wolves in sheep’s clothing,etc.This has all been portrayed by the Lord in various illustrations about the “wheat”.On one thread ,I postulated scriptural examples of the expression “standing before”..God,or the Lord.In these cases,it appears to mean the ones in the direct front of the deity are in these cases under scrutiny for a reward because of good behavior.In some of the instances,as in the case of the general resurrection of mankind during the “1000” years,the term applies to people who are dwelling on earth,not in heaven literally,but only in John’s vision.(that is Rev.20:12).I also share the opinion,with I will say,the backing of the ENTIRE gospel;to wit;the heavenly abode is the only home Christ gave as the destination of reborn disciples.A selection process will occur before these ones are gathered and taken,as described THROUGHOUT the N.T.(no citing necessary).This is apparently,I repeat ..apparently,or possibly,what is being shownby theselection of 12,000 from each named genealogy as listed. The number,a perfect one Biblically(12times12)dovetails nicely with the perfect city that is described as coming down from heaven;in other words,the perfect amount of “stones” or blocks needed to build the “City”.(12,000 furlongs its height,length,and breadth,all the same….the wall;144 cubits.Rev.21:15-17)As you supposed earlier,the “Great Crowd” which are not listed as having been bought from the earth for the purpose of reigning,or following the Lamb no matter where he goes,are clearlydecribed as having survived the G.T.,not dying in it.(I’m ducking my head Willie,did you just throw something?)The hugely disastous effects of interpreting this as the finite number of Christians who enter the heavenly abode are numerous,and I won’t go into that.What the real point I would like to make about this “144k” heavenly group,is that the scriptures say they were planned to be a govt. for earth even before the earth was prepared for mankind.Eph.1:3,4..”Blessed be the God and father of our Lord Jesus Christ,for he has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in union with Christ,just as he chose us in union with him BEFORE THE FOUNDING OF THE WORLD,…”and 2Pet.1:2″His divine powerhas given us everything we need for life and godliness through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness.Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises,so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.”Here part of the problem with the “Remnant” teaching of Russell and W.T.is that it denies the”precious promises”Christ is offering us.dditionally,the entire gospel hammers home the truth that the anointing of the spirit not only gives us the heavenly desire to join Christ as an heir to the Kingdom,but is the power in us to combat the evil’s of the flesh.These are the fundamentals being withheld from Witnesses.Yet not of lesser import.The scriptures point out that this spirit is the key to oneness thru the spirit(s) of God and Christ,those spirits(whether alternately or at seperate times,or maybe they’re the same,I don’t know)unfold the meanings of the scriptures.(read John 14:26,and I suggest reading both chapters ;14 and 15 NIVor better trans.;not NWT)After I readthese gospels many times it occurred to me that it was all planned beforehand(the Kingdom),They,in their wisdom realised this;not only would man’s overpowering desire to experience life for himself,or knowledge of good and bad,drive him to try the tree at some point,but that mankind would need a shield for the earth to protect them from other intelligent,but possibly not quite that loyal to God,and that these races may desire to harm the infant earthlings.That’s exactly what happened,we have been invaded and conquered and used for selfish pleasures and purposes by at least the very first offworld race we know of.These we call demons now.It appears we now have knowledge of two races that are existing in various degrees of obedience to God;ours and these”angels that sinned”,whatever they are.Might there be many other races out there in this seemungly endless universe,some right now coming to earth to view us?for better or worse?Is this far fetched?NO,it’s already happened.We’re still infested with these creatures.What is going to prevent it ever happening again?The Kingdom,the shield over the earth.People are seeing craft in our skies,more every year.A brother and I witnessed a boomerang-shaped craft fly right over head,just above the treetops while at the Kingdom Hall in 2005.(But I saw a drone came down in Iran today on the news,and it looked a lot like that,so now ,I don’t know if it was e.t.)I want to say these angels materialised at one time just like a teleporter on Star Trek.Maybe they are like us in their home but just transported in back in the day,and that’s how they could reproduce,I don’t know.But I have enough sense to see from the Bible and use my God-given reasoning to figure out that God and Christ were smart enough to foresee “alien”(non-earthly)interference and plan for it.What say you all?

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  54. andrew says:

    I must say John that I believe the subject of alien races goes beyond the scope of the bible. I don’t deny or confirm their existence, but any viewpoints on that subject would 100% speculation.

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  55. John S. says:

    Thanks for replying.I view what the angels are as definitely not belonging to our race.They have succeeded in coming to earth,injecting(no-foul intended) their dna into the human genome,pre-flood(Gen.6)Caused the total ruin of our bodies/life and are planning a seeming total annihalation of our species,and even murdered our King and Lord.It’s all in the way we’ve been looking at these stories,as Biblical,and maybe not a more scientific point of view.Although the terms are different,the actual concept of what has happened to our planet and people is the same,don’t you agree?We need the Kingdom,not only to cure us from death,but to capture,try and judge these creatures and sentence them,AND protect the earth (possibly,speculatively),from this ever occuring again.So I do agree with you.We are faced with bigger problems though at the present.I always enjoy your comments.

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  56. Willie says:

    I see the Scripture about returning to a pure language (Zeph. 3:9) to be the undoing of the scrambling of the language during the time of the Tower of Babel (Gen. 11:1-9). It only makes sense that the world speaks one language in the Kingdom.

    More than likely the previous language was Hebrew and the fact that Israel encourages all its returning residents to learn to speak Hebrew is a significant indication of this probibility since the Kingdom will begin in Jerusalem with a holy Jewish remnant as its nucleus.

    The purpose of the pure language is so “that they [all the earth] may all call upon the name of the LORD, to serve him with one consent” and this will not happen until the reign of Jesus and the Church–the 144,000 saints who are his body members (Eph. 4:14-16).

    During the resurrection of the dead in the Kingdom on earth, the inhabitants could conceivably be raised with the ability to speak the new language, just like their old language was gone in an instant.

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