If you are a struggling Jehovah’s Witness of the “conscious class” you may feel very lonely. I know I do as most of my friends are JW’s. It’s not easy to tell if your JW friends are of the “conscious class” without possibly risking being disfellowshipped. Before you know it you could be approached by an elder or two elder asking you questions about your loyalty to the GB.

When Jesus was questioned by one of the chief priests how did he react?

John 18: 19-23, “And so the chief priest questioned Jesus about his disciples and about his teaching. Jesus answered him: “I have spoken to the world publicly. I always taught in a synagogue and in the temple, where all the Jews come together; and I spoke nothing in secret. Why do you question me? Question those who have heard what I spoke to them. See! These know what I said.” After he said these things, one of the officers that was standing by gave Jesus a slap in the face and said: “Is that the way you answer the chief priest?” Jesus answered him: “If I spoke wrongly, bear witness concerning the wrong; but if rightly, why do you hit me?”

Did Jesus incriminate himself? Never! So the question is, how can we be like Jesus and not ever incriminate ourselves with our friends or elders (chief priest)? I believe the number one rule should be, never incriminate yourself. I have already done this in the past with my family and I am having a hard time recovering from it because I already let the cat out of the bag. Have you ever tried to put a cat back into a bag? It’s not easy, almost impossible!

If you want to test the waters with a friend or family member I recommend taking it slow. Don’t jump into the deep end of the pool like I did, stick your toe in the shallow end first. How can you do this? I think the key word is doubts.

Jude 1:22, “Also, continue showing mercy to some that have doubts.”

Elders are told to show mercy to those who have doubts. Doubts are very common. If you wanted to test a friend you could say something like, “sometimes I have doubts about my faith and don’t know what to do.” You just told them you have doubts so if they do also, you just gave them an opportunity to tell you about theirs. If they say, “really, what do you doubt about?” DO NOT incriminate yourself, say nothing. Ask them, “do you ever have doubts?” If they say no then you know they are definitely not of the “conscious class”. This person will be a hard nut to crack in my opinion. I would just leave it at that. Say, “It’s no big deal, I want to keep it to myself and wait on Jehovah.” Just say no more. This tells them they are not going to get anything at all out of you unless they express their doubts too. Maybe they will, maybe they will not. Never express anything with two JW’s because then they have two witness’s to hang you if they want to.

Their is the chance that the other person is of the “conscious class” and wonders if you are too. Let them lead the conversation and never admit to anything they don’t. If they say, “yeah I wonder about disfellowshiping”, you can say, “yes me too!” If the say, “I wonder about 1914” you can say, “yes me too!”

The key here is to use doubts but don’t express what they are until the other person lets you know they have doubts too. If they don’t and you keep on talking, my opinion is, you will get nowhere except maybe disfellowshipped. If you don’t keep on talking you can keep your friend. If they have doubts you can help them join the “conscious class”.

Your brother,
In Christ,
Greybeard

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78 Comments on How to Test the Waters with a JW Friend

  1. Picardo371 says:

    Yes GB,

    You do have to be careful when doing this if you don’t want to be found out don’t you. I have known some friends that are very sensitive to others who have doubts. They seem to be able to detect it. I have even heard of one brother who noticed that a friend had a bible other than the NWT with him at an assembly. This sure opened up an interesting line of questioning, so be careful what bible you carry to the meetings! lol Sorry, inside joke, couldn’t resist.

    Your Brother,

    Dennis

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    • greybeard says:

      Thats a good one Dennis! LOL! You got me good on that one. Maybe I should explain this to all. Dennis and myself have been friends for years. Both of us raised JW’s. I ran into him at an assembly a few years back. We haven’t seen each other for a few years as I had moved. I walked up to him during the session and said hi and all that… Then I noticed he had a large Bible that was not the NWT. I can’t remember what I said. Knowing me I probably said something jokingly like, “uhhh your not an apostate are you? If you are don’t tell me because I don’t want to know.” I seem to remember something like that. He was smiling big time. At this time Dennis was in fact, of the “conscious class”. About a year or so went by and I was DFed. I started checking out http://www.jwfacts.com / Then in a short while I called Dennis, I told him what I was learning sense I had gotten the vibe that he was no longer in agreement with the borg. He got a big kick out of all this, asking me why I thought such a thing just because he had a different Bible? Then he came clean and was a very close friend through all of this for me. I love the guy…

      What do we learn from this? You really don’t need to say anything at all! Just get a different version of the Bible and make sure it is big and easy to spot! I think that should do it. Thanks Dennis for the post! You made me laugh!

      Your bro,
      Greybeard

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  2. Thomas says:

    Greybeard can I ask you a question? Are you still disfellowshipped? It sounds like you are but you are talking like you are not. Ether way, good suggestions.

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    • greybeard says:

      Hi Thomas,

      No I am not, I have been fading. I haven’t gone for a while. After being DFed I did get reinstated so I could talk to family and friends. With family it’s not the same anymore. We don’t talk religion like we did at one time. I think there is a underlying feeling that they know I don’t agree with everything. If It wasn’t for the “agree with everything or be DFed” rule, I would still go to the Kingdom Hall. What is your story Thomas? I don’t believe I have met you on here yet.

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  3. Serene says:

    if it wasnt for feeling so two faced if i did go back id be there but im not going to be going somewere that i disagree on some things,like an elder once said to me come back and wel sort it out i said if i came back id be going to peoples doors and teaching a lie,id be saying dont have blood when i beleive u should have it id be so two faced no im not like that.but otherwise i wish i could just go and not get buged for reports or cos i dont go often or what ever i just want everyone to see me for me and still be my freind and not think im bad and ignor me,i mean i hate it when they expect so much from some one,like so much is going on with loads a kids and work and what ever else they just expect to much,and i hate siting there pretending to be perfect and everyone else pretending the same when realy i think all haver doubts but dernt say anything and to afraid to stand out.

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  4. JJ says:

    Greybeard, what about asking if they have ever done research on JWs online? Or what if you said, “I have been doing some research online about our faith and theocratic history” and see what they say. They can’t “nail you” for anything but they may ask what you learned…

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    • greybeard says:

      Doing research about JW’s online is forbidden unless it is done at the watchtower.com site and viewed as reading apostate stuff as you know. If you told them such a thing they would not hesitate to ask you what did you learn? Then you would be in a mess in my opinion. I think I would avoid making such a comment. It gives away to much incriminating evidence. My advice is to only admit doubts but don’t admit to anything the other person doesn’t admit to first. If they never have doubts, do not engage. If you want to create doubts in JW friends, that’s a different subject. TMO

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  5. Papabear says:

    JJ,
    I see your thoughts here. However I would be afraid to bring up research online for two reasons…
    1. I am sure you know that we are led to believe that any research outside of using FDS publications is dangerous by the GB. So bringing that up may lead them to having issues with you doing that kind of research in the first place.
    2. Any information you bring up could be incriminating you. Even if it is only info you read, it could be quickly viewed that either you are reading “apostate information”, or that you yourself feel this way and chance your friend or family going to the elders.
    This situation is SO exhausting and nerve-racking. For people to have to walk on eggshells just to hold on to a relationship with JW family and friends… Just more proof that this org and their decisions are not directed by God’s Holy Spirit!

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    • DanielB says:

      In my opinion, the inevitable will happen before too many moons pass, and you will stand better away than within, It’s like learning to swim, and knowing that the refreshing, mildly-tempered perfect older Brother is teaching us to swim, and to let the load go. Matthew 11:27-30

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  6. Serene says:

    i dont think that this religion is write cos if it was people wouldnt be so afraid of everyone, instead of there being love amongs it its more of fear and regection and fear of god doomed and wat ever else comes to mind when anyone has a doubt,i mean i used to go other churches in past and i never got this kind of feeling,yer i did once when i started seeing my ex husband and the preast found out his mom was a witt he just warned me and said be carfull,that was it everyone stayed my mate, i lost touch and they all moved away to were ever but they dint regect me cos i became a witness,is this realy how christ expected us to be as a people realy,afraid to ask questions to have an opinion to love ur family so much ul live a lie so theyl talk to u,yes it does say about leaving ur mother farther sis bro what ever for him i beleive thats true cos its somat u only have to do if ur a jw as if u leave them u leave ur fam ur freinds ur life,were as if u leave another christian group well most u dont get the same response, ur fam still talk to u love u want to be around u dont treat u as an apostate tell me if im wrong but in my opinion iv only felt this in the jws, but i have seen on tv a few others who do the same,but i myself have only experienced it with them as other places iv gone to have been alot more caring and forgiving.

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    • Anonymous says:

      Well put Serene

      There is a saying “If you don’t speak the truth when you know the truth then you become an accomplice of liars and forgers of lies.”

      I began my struggle in the summer of 2005.

      The more I read Jehovah’s word the more I noticed teachings that were true.

      So I started asking different ones that I thought were my friends what these things mean. What a mistake – every time they would say – what does the watchtower say.

      after about 2 years of this I found that I didn’t come away from the meetings refreshed spiritually but rather I was irritated by the things that were false.

      When going out in service I found myself not using or leaving watchtower publications because it made me feel hypocritical to do so.

      eventually the elders wanted to meet with me to discuss these things that I was talking about. One of my good friends told me not to go. I thought about and decided that would be cowardly.

      So I went and over the period of several months and several meetings they disfellowshipped me.

      Over what? They asked me if I belived that the FDS and governing body were appointed over all of Chist belongings?
      They didnt ask me if I belived in Jehovah and his Son and if I believed that the bible was his word of truth – to that I would have given a resounding YES.

      To have freedom of speech is a wonderful privelege from Jehovah the greatest Spirit himself.

      In Rev 21:8 one of the things mentioned that prevents one from gaining life is being a coward.

      Do we risk everthing by speaking truth? It appears so in my case. Most of those whom I called friend dont talk to me.
      My wife left me – all of these things have been painful and yet I have a clean conscience before Jehovah with regards to speaking truth from his word of truth and am now free to pursue the hope and course that Jehovahs word is leading me.

      your brother

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      • greybeard says:

        Anonymous,

        Sorry to hear about what you went through…

        I hope you are not implying to withhold information from elders or JW friends and family is to be “an accomplice of liars and forgers of lies.”

        Many times in scripture Jesus withheld information from those asking. (John 18: 19-23) He also said at Matthew 7:6, “Do not give what is holy to dogs, neither throw YOUR pearls before swine, that they may never trample them under their feet and turn around and rip YOU open.”

        I believe Rev 21:8 does not apply at all to those who do not “throw… pearls before swine”

        Many of us like yourself have been trampled under their feet and ripped open.

        The advice here in this post is to be careful who you cast your pearls before, we are not advising ones to act cowardly. If one does not get himself DFed from JW’s he has more of a chance to share truth than he does being cast out. THO

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  7. Serene says:

    its not someting thats talked about is it at the local hall u know that ur having dobts so many keep things to themselfs but ask these questions in there own minds and then look in to things in secret,nowif i was still in id be doing that and i wouldnt be going out on the min with my watch tower bei ng a hipocrit,neither would i be letting the elders know of what id lerned, not cos i dont want them to see the truth but becouse i think god is showing us the truth and only the ones searching for it see it and find it all the rest stay blind,now if they no what they see and they dont care and folow blind cos it suits them and there lifes then god aint pleased is he,hes searching our hearts and finding the truth finders the ones who realy love him,for anon to end up talking with elders and saying exactly what hes thinking is sooo very brave hes lost everything and thats were the losing mother farther bro sis comes in in jesus speach.

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    • DanielB says:

      One thing that comes to mind here on the subject of testing the waters among other witnesses, is that you can stay in the driver’s seat with your lead on a conversation, with good effect. For example, there is common ground of basic belief, so you have common ground. Take a subject like God’s Sovereignty. We know by so many scriptures that this is central to His purpose in His haven furnished us with His inspired Word.

      As you test out how far you can go with their enlightenment, you can establish a positive thought or two with Christ at your side. He says the words will be given. A few moments of refreshing truth will probably be well appreciated.

      Show mercy toward those with doubts as Jesus did and as Jude counseled, never incrimate yourself, speak graciously, let any know that you simply love them.

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  8. LostTime says:

    I just stumbled upon this website off the “freeminds.com” . I’m 29 years old, just now dabbling in all of this. I find myself being drawn to the earth, nature, balance with one’s self, and I had told my family I was thinking about taking up ‘yoga’. WOW! was that a mistake. Within the next two weeks. I received two emails and three letters from brothers/sisters and my family suggesting against it, and providing me with ‘articles’ to read. Because I am a bit of a ‘rebel’ in the JW world, I found myself searching the internet with reasons to back up why yoga is NOT all bad, and could be so good for you. Well, during all this I happened to stumble upon a lot of information that I had never knew existed, a world I had never seen. It’s been about 6 months of dabbling here and there…and I find myself incredibly pissed. And a feeling of needing to ‘rush’ and make a choice between ‘truth’ or ‘worldly’. I have brought this ‘feeling’ up to a handful of my closest friends, only to find out they are all in the same boat. (we like to refer to ourselves as ‘intellectuals’…which I picked up here might be referred to as the ‘conscious class’) Anyhow hours and hours of friendly arguments and disagreements with some of my closest friends has lead me to sites like this…a place I NEVER would have imagined myself.

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  9. LostTime says:

    Thank You. I am beginning to realize that there is a lot of this ‘go beyond the things that are written’… around here. Not happy with it. I have recently taken the advice of an ex jw though. And I have stopped researching the good/bad of the JW world…and I have broaden my search to all religions. I’m finding myself less frustrated, and more intrigued. Although the JW world is seen as most JW’s as a ‘safe haven’…there are many other religions/cults that feel the same way we do. It’s not just JW’s that have the facts a bit twisted. It’s religion in a whole. So we need to stop sitting here and pointing blame at JW’s…and look at the bigger picture. The organization is run by sinful, imperfect humans just like you and I. We can’t be mad at them (as I was), they are doing the best they can with the information that was handed down to them. The best thing to do, is research God, research heaven, research every religion…including nonreligious organizations. You will be amazed at how many and how much knowledge and facts there are out there…that we as Jw’s are completely closed out to. It’s staggering, yet humbling…it’s amazing, yet frightening all at once.

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    • Amos says:

      Welcome to the site Lost Time.
      You have just stepped into a very exciting time of your life. You will no doubt go through many different stages in your new-found walk, please be patient with what you find out.
      One of the most important bits of advice that I can give that I’ve found out is that I now see ALL religions (regardless) as having their roots in ancient satanic worship, that’s tracable back to ancient Babylon. For this reason alone, I see God’s written Word as being the ONLY TRUE SOURCE OF TRUTH.
      What I recommend is to prayerfully study the bible, along with relieble reference works such as, a selection of concordances, bible dictionaries, lexicons & reliable interlinears. I have also found out that it is more likely that the NT was originally written in Aramaic not Greek. As we know, the very early movement that later became the papacy, destroyed ALL the original NT manuscripts & replaced them with Greek texts. This is historical fact. There are a few very reliable Aramaic texts still in existence today, that were preserved in the western regions.
      For the OT, I have found two reliable texts, the Jewish Tanack & the Septuagint. The papacy didn’t bother with these as they weren’t considered any threat as the Masoretic text was already widely accepted.
      As a side point, I’d think carefully about anything like yoga, as I do agree with the WTS, that anything like this did have is origin in false religion. There are many other forms of easy & beneficial excercise without getting involved in pagan rites.

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  10. LostTime says:

    I understand all that, and that is the direction I was going in…but lately the literature I have been reading is gearing me in a whole other direction. I’m realizing that ‘faith’ is only faith if it is exercised. There is no such thing as ‘faith’ unless you actual have it…feel it…poses it. All of this talk about which translation is correct and which is not…is so darn confusing. How do YOU know? There are so many ‘opinions’ bounced back and forth between something as simple as ‘what bible to actually have ‘faith’ in’. Which is it? And honestly, if God were really watching all this, if God really cared all that much why is he making this out to be some sort of treasure hunt? I give you a lot of credit Amos…gee, I give myself a lot of credit. But in this day in age, who has time for all this? Honestly, I have put hours…as I’m sure you have, and anyone else on this site has. Into trying to ‘figure’ out this riddle. (In any average household both the mother and father work, kids are picked up from school, homework, dinner, cleaning house, daily exercise, if you are a jw, you have hours of meetings/study time that is required.) When a where are these people suppose to find hours of time to find out if what they believe is truth, they can barely make it by with the hours given to them. Why is God making it so hard to find him? Why do I have to do hours of research to figure out what bible I’m ‘suppose’ to be reading, before I even figure out if I believe the writing in them? I’m starting to think I have grown out of this site, within the last couple months. I have read a ton of peoples opinion here, and I have enjoyed the thought process. But before sitting here and stating that JW’s have it figured out wrong, have you even sat back and thought, maybe it’s not just the JEHOVAH’S WITNESSES after all…’maybe we ALL have it wrong’…

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    • andrew says:

      Hi losttime
      I can understand your frustration. The fact of the matter is that the bible doesn’t wrap up doctrinal matters in nice tidy little packages. This should tell us that which translation to use or which doctrinal beliefs are true are not salvation matters. Can we understand the Sermon on the Mount? Yes. Put into practice this Sermon and everything else will come out just fine.

      See the article on this site: Salvation issue or not

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    • greybeard says:

      Hi LostTime,

      I understand your plight. I ask the same questions myself at times. You asked, “why is God making it so hard to find him.” You also mentioned we don’t have much time to do that. Please think about this, is that really true? Why don’t we have any time to find him? Did God make our life so complicated that we have no time or is this our own fault? I don’t know where you live but I live in the USA. To live the “American Dream” most families need both husband and wife to work full time in order to support it. I did that myself for a long time. Then at one point in my life I attained it and didn’t need to work much. What happened then? I didn’t pioneer or do deep study like I thought I would. No, I took time to “enjoy life” doing many things and having much “fun.” THAT is the world we live in. Although through all of this, I continued to pray constantly asking God to help me do his will. It wasn’t until I prayed many times asking God if the JW’s really had the truth that I found the answer to that question. After that came to me I actually lost almost everything and I had nothing but time. At this time I read and read and read whatever I could about the JW’s and the Bible. I thought I was a student of the Bible all my life but truth is, I was only a student of the Watchtower. Sure I knew the Bible but it never came alive until I accepted Christ as my personal savior in my heart and kicked man out of that equation.

      Please consider Acts 17:24-27, “The God that made the world and all the things in it, being, as this One is, Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in handmade temples, neither is he attended to by human hands as if he needed anything, because he himself gives to all [persons] life and breath and all things. And he made out of one [man] every nation of men, to dwell upon the entire surface of the earth, and he decreed the appointed times and the set limits of the dwelling of [men], for them to seek God, if they might grope for him and really find him, although, in fact, he is not far off from each one of us.”

      God doesn’t make it hard to find him, as it is written, he is not far off from each of us. sometimes it takes YEARS to recognize this fact and our faith to kick in. I know it did in my case. We need to “grope” for him and really find him. This isn’t going to happen if we are seeking the “American dream” or anything else at the same time. God will take us to the point where HE is the only one left to turn to. He did me. He did the Israelites and he will you if you keep calling out to him. How did he teach the Israelites? One thing he did was he only gave them what they needed for THE DAY. Christ also taught us not to worry about tomorrow but only today and God will provide for today. If we really put this to the test we will find it to be true and we will have all the time we need. How much time did the Israelites have those 40 years in the wilderness?

      It is not easy to trust in God like this. In my case I had to become BROKE financially to test this out. Just the other day I was so worried because I was down to my last $200. That was destitute for me and I was sick about it. Then I thought to myself, wait a minute, what did Christ say? Why am I worried? I have more than enough for today. I have my “daily bread.” Guess what? I got through it and because I stopped worrying this problem took care of itself. Something I had on the internet finally sold right after I stopped worrying about it. I know it had to be God because it has happened WAY to many times. That is called faith. Test him out yourself, trust in him. He will let you sell everything off that he feels you don’t need before he kicks in. That is my opinion.

      Remember the rich man who ask Christ to be his follower? Why couldn’t he follow Christ? There is your answer. He had WAY to many things. Christ would have taken him if he would have left them but he just couldn’t. Could that be our situation?

      For now, follow Christ, his words are VERY simple to understand and follow in EVERY Bible translation are they not?

      You said, “maybe it’s not just the JEHOVAH’S WITNESSES after all…’maybe we ALL have it wrong” I said things like that too a few times because of my cognitive dissonance. What helped me was RE-reading both of Ray Franz books. Have you read those? I HIGHLY suggest you do. They carry a lot of weight. He was a member of the GB and in my opinion, the most humble and honest one of them all. He explains Christian Freedom very well. I am reading “In Search of Christian Freedom” right now. I can’t tell you how much it helps my faith.

      Use the NWT if you can’t find another Bible you like. I use it a lot because that is what I am familiar with. However, I am now leaning towards other Bibles. The big difference is the Trinity bias. I am over that because to me, it is not a salvation issue anymore. Christ has ALL power and authority so I have NO problem praying to him. Thomas did didn’t he? He told us that anything we ask him…? Personally I don’t think God will judge people on their knowledge of all things but on their heart condition. The fact that we cannot reach all knowledge should prove that. However, WE can understand Christ’s words and LIVE by them can we not? Those words are SIMPLE and in EVERY Bible!

      Prayer is the key and truly relying on God/Jehovah/Yahweh/Jesus/Yeshua to provide everything else will work. Keep on seeking first the Kingdom. Don’t give up. My opinion is God will allow everyone the time they need to find him. As it is written, he has set limits to this life. The next life will be different. “As in Adam ALL are dying so as in Christ ALL will be made alive.” Romans 11:32, “For God has shut them all up together in disobedience, that he might show all of them mercy.”

      May God bless your efforts and all of ours!
      Your brother in Christ,
      Greybeard

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  11. Amos says:

    Hi LostTime,
    I agree with Andrews reply to you…the sermon on the mount contains ALL the basic elements for salvation.

    Regarding translations, I have found that care needs to be excercised with any translation that uses modern master texts, as most of these contain bias towards Pentecostal, Evangelistic, & other babylonish dogma. I have found that the received text, among others, appears to be more reliable along with reputable Jewish & Aramaic texts.

    Please don’t missunderstand me though, I still believe we can come to The Father & learn the truth through ANY translation, it’s just that some texts are better expressed in the older master texts.

    One thing that I wont hide is that I have a distinct distrust of the Westcott & Hort master text due to their deep involvement with the occult. The same goes with ANY translation that is similarly associated with the occult, this is something that the WTS are not very careful about.

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    • greybeard says:

      Thank you Amos,

      This was VERY interesting! Could you please e-mail me your info on “Westcott & Hort master text” and them being in the occult? Is this fact or hearsay? Post here if you wish but please email to me at greybeardjws(@)gmail.com

      Thanks bro!

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  12. Ruth says:

    Greybeard what you said was fantastic.
    Just goes to show you how low we have to come sometimes to really understand.
    Quote: It is not easy to trust in God like this. In my case I had to become BROKE financially to test this out. Just the other day I was so worried because I was down to my last $200. That was destitute for me and I was sick about it. Then I thought to myself, wait a minute, what did Christ say? Why am I worried? I have more than enough for today. I have my “daily bread.” Guess what? I got through it and because I stopped worrying this problem took care of itself. Something I had on the internet finally sold right after I stopped worrying about it. I know it had to be God because it has happened WAY to many times. That is called faith. Test him out yourself, trust in him. He will let you sell everything off that he feels you don’t need before he kicks in. That is my opinion.
    Your sister Ruth.

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  13. Ruth says:

    My Dear lovely Brother Lost time.
    You know what? Your not losing anytime. What you are experiencing as hard as it may sound is a natural part of your way out of the w/tower or where ever you are at this time into the arms of Jesus.
    As grey beard said. It is no easy road but having a real faith and testing that faith. Letting go of the old and Putting on the new is a real life experience which under the holy spirits action and your belief will happen if we let it.
    It also is heart breaking when one finds out the path he has been on was all a huge lie.It is so confusing. But take heed.
    Most of us coming to the WAY! the real truth seekers have also suffered beyond belief. We understand your frustrations. We know God will help you. We will be here for you to help carry your load as well.
    As you grow in understanding your load will get lighter and lighter. You will feel the true freedom of the children of God.
    I know how hard it is to work things out in the beginning When one is reaching for truth. But remember! Your not alone. We do understand because we have been in the same place.
    You see you do not have to jump to our tune anymore. We are only human. Take what you can cope with from us. What you cannot leave it.

    You know the father loves you so much “don’t you?. He feels your pain and cannot wait for you to get through all your sufferings so he can show you ever greater things.

    Organized religions and churches do not have the liberty and freedom true Christians have.
    Why do I say this. “Well for starters we do not rely on man anymore.” No, we rely on every word coming from the fathers mouth.
    One thing I am learning is its not about translations to get the real truth. Its an open heart letting in the spirit to teach us no matter the translation we are reading at that time.
    I find the basic saving truth is in about every translation.
    The simple gospel.

    Then again it is wise if a brother suggests things about different translations to take heed for your own protection.
    Great information if you want to use it.
    All he is doing is offering suggestions caring about your welfare. Please do not feel burdened.
    You can read what you like! Gods spirit if it is a bible will let you know deep in your gut if it is wrong or right. I don’t know about others but this has happened to me many a time.

    Don’t let any of us rob your joy or confuse you. Keep praying for real truth. You will get there I promise you.
    Remember when Jesus said come to me all you who are loaded down.
    take my yoke for it is light? That is what we do now.

    With Gods spirit he has unshackled us from the snare of religion. Teaching us ONLY to rely on him and his father.
    Remember Jesus wants you to put all your frustrations and worries on is shoulders. ( The secret is) Once you have done that for the day. Leave it with him. Forget it. Feel the freedom. Now the next day you start all over again as it has its own anxieties. read psalms 139
    Love you my dear Brother. Your sister Ruth.

      (Quote)

  14. LostTime says:

    Thank you for the warm thoughts, and words. Greatly appreciated it. You speak truth when you talk of the frustration I feel realizing that ALL this time HAS in fact been wasted. I have wasted time putting so much guilt and pressure on myself to be this outstanding ‘sister’ (who also resides in the US of A) and have failed several times. I have had my parents turn on me and all of my friends. All the turmoil and heartache trying to get back and ‘win’ the hearts of my ‘fellow man’, proving to ‘them’, NOT to God, whether I was ‘GOOD ENOUGH’. It irritates my soul, my mind. That I went through all of that, for nothing. And yet, I am at peace, and have learned to put it behind me.

    I have taken all of your points into consideration. (Ruth, Amos, Greybeard and Andrew) I understand where you are coming from, and I truly thank you for taking the time to respond, I was expecting that. And to clarify I am not denying that there is A God…I am not ruling out the fact that there is a creator of some sort. And I don’t mean to sound like the ‘Devil’s Advocate’, but I have a few concerns that have lead me to where I am now.

    There is one concern that I want to bring up at this moment, only because it was mentioned in Greybeard’s statement, and then reiterated again in Ruth’s comment. First of all I do a TON of reading, I am a complete NERD, even though I don’t necessarily fit the profile. I read everything from romance to health and wellness (I’m a health fanatic) to philosophy and biblical writings. I consider myself a ‘well-rounded’ individual, a caring individual, with a good heart. I have done lots of readings on different countries, their upbringings, their religions, their different life styles.

    Greybeard had said that he had $200 to his name, and he has ‘faith’ in A GOD that ‘provided’ him with a ‘sale’ in order to keep him above water, per say. He mentioned that he can’t ‘ignore this because it was happened too many times’.

    This is where I get completely frustrated. What of ALL the people, and when I say ALL…I mean millions of people that have been raised in other countries were their GOD is not our GOD, it’s a completely different GOD. What of the millions that are starving? What of the millions that are infected with Aids, or HIV? We talk here in the US of $200 being a tough place to be in…that is NOTHING. Where is GOD when these young children, these babies are dying, literally right before our eyes? Don’t you think they are praying to ‘A GOD’? What if their parents, and the parents before them, and the parents before them all believed in THEIR GOD…what if they know nothing of our GOD…are their prayers being answered? Greybeard made a sale, but little Shangilia, Akinsanya, Maarifa, Adom, and Mbwelera are hungry, they are sleeping in the dirt, and haven’t had food for three days. Can I mention that ‘Adom’ is a name from Ghana meaning ‘help from god’ (Ghana, although looking better within the last few years, has been one of the ‘poorest’ country’s in Africa.) These people clearly believe in A GOD, I’m sure Adom’s mom prays daily for food, I’m sure she cries out in desperation, I’m sure she works harder and sweats more than any of us spoiled Americans ever have. Doesn’t that bother you? Like I said, I consider myself a ‘good person, solid heart’ and although imperfect, although having NO CLUE what is right and what is wrong at times….I would be trying my damnedest to help Adom get some food and a bath before worrying about Greybeard making a sale. Now please don’t read into this, I may be coming across harsh, I don’t mean to be, please understand that I am saying all of this with good/if not great intentions. I just don’t get it. What if I had the unfortunate fate of being born into a family a India, or Haiti, or Africa where their GOD is different then ‘OUR GOD’…what if my parents threatened to kill or never speak to me again (similar to Jw’s)…then what? We can not HELP the ‘path’ that was handed down to us, we speak here on this forum as if we are ‘educated people that know ‘things”…we don’t know anything. We don’t know what it’s like to have NOTHING, literally NOTHING. To wake up dirty on a dirt/mud floor. To be bathing in a muddy puddle, to not be able to provide for your children, we have NO CLUE. Where is GOD for those people, is it their fault that their ‘fate’ dropped them into the poorest area in the world? Are we the ‘lucky’ ones to have been born in a free country…were ‘THE REAL GOD’ is more prevalent and easily assessable? How is this fair? I am starting to realize that their are certain things, way more than you or I could ever imagine, that are completely out of our control. It’s not a ‘faith’…it’s a coincidence… good things happen…bad things happen to all people all day long. I don’t believe that Greybeard got a sale because OUR GOD saw he needed help, I believe he got a sale because someone who was looking for the product just ‘happened’ to be on that site at that time…that is it. Good people who believe in OUR GOD are raped everyday, they are killed, murdered…they get into car accidents (like I did a few weeks ago)…we get sucked into religions like Catholics or Jehovah’s Witnesses and we allow humans to guide us… we are afraid to leave because our family and friends will disown us. It has nothing to do with anything, I don’t believe we are ‘luckier’ I don’t believe OUR GOD watches out for us, while there are millions of good people just like you and I dying everyday from malnutrition. I can’t believe it. What kind of God would do that? What kind of God would listen to Greybeard prayers for a bit more money to cover his expenses for the week but completely ignores the screams every night of children crying because they are literally starving…starving to death? No God would do that, not my God…not the GOD…not your GOD…it doesn’t make sense. People are born into certain areas by chance. They are brought up into a certain ‘religion’, ‘idea’, ‘way of life’ by chance. They get robbed, murdered, raped, killed by drunk drivers by chance. They win the lotto, get a promotion, get a gift from their lover, ‘make a sale’…by chance. There is no outside source helping things go a certain way, there can’t be. God has a divine plan, it is already set…it is already in it’s works, I don’t believe he is changing and adapting that plan to fit anyone’s life style or decisions they may have made to get into the situation they are already in.

    I use give myself A BIG PAT ON THE BACK, like I’m some sort of superhero because I endured being disfellowshipped twice. I didn’t have any friends, because I was isolated. I cried my eyes out…I pleaded with MY GOD, asked him to show me the light, asked him to give me understanding…and he did (I feel). I would brag about how I ‘endured’ that, and I came back, not once, but twice. I talked like I was some sort of great religious guru who was going to save the world. I’m NOBODY, none of us are. We have no idea what it is like out there….we can’t even begin to imagine the burn…and hearthache…the torture…

      (Quote)

  15. LostTime says:

    To Ruth, Greybeard, Andrew and Amos…thank you for taking the time to respond. I honestly wasn’t expecting that. To introduce myself, I am a ‘female’… =)… I do live in the US of A. I am in my late 20’s and half lived in about 7 different states in the midwest. I have been disfellowshipped twice, last one for being pregnant out of wedlock. I refused to marry because of the child, and have turned down three separate proposals since. I am extremely free spirted, and full of energy. I love to read…EVERYTHING from romance novels to health and fitness (I am a health fanatic). I read about different countries, lifestyles, religions, philosophy ect. I consider myself a ‘well rounded’ individual. My dad always said I was too smart for my own good, whatever that means. And I teach my seven year old son to question everything. I tell him, that even I don’t know all the right answers. And just because I think or do things certain ways, does not in the least mean it is correct. I try my best to lead by example, and I have a well behaved beautiful healthy, active son to show for it.

      (Quote)

    • greybeard says:

      Welcome to the forum/blog lostTime! We hope you stick around. We are your friends. Our hope is that people who have been hurt by the JW’s will not loose faith in God. Their legalistic controlling ways are not supported by Christ’s teachings. Christ was about mercy and not judging.

      May you be blessed in your search for knowledge,
      Your brother in Christ,
      Greybeard

        (Quote)

  16. LostTime says:

    Although there are plenty of things that ‘frustrate me’ on this subject …I would like to pin point one…only because it was mentioned. (I did already type out an entire comment, and somehow it never got posted…so if it ends up here…and I sound as if I am repeating myself…well…it’s because I am)

    Greybeard mentioned in his post that he only had $200 to his name at some point…and OUR GOD some how miraculously provided him with a sale in order to make ends meet, per say. This is where I get confused. Right now as we speak (type/read) there are children/people all over the world, millions of them that are hungry, poor, and dying in certain countries. Little children like Kudyauku, Kabisa, Muriuki, Kiki, Mukanda and Adom. Children that happened to be born (by chance) into a country that is stricken with poverty. Can I also mention that ‘Adom’ is a name from Ghana (Africa) meaning ‘HELP FROM GOD’…who’s GOD? Not OUR GOD…THEIR GOD. Do you realize that every night these children scream out in pain…pain not because they stubbed their toe (that’s why our children cry)…but because they are actually dying of hunger. Right now…dying of hunger. Don’t you think Adom’s mom cries out every night to THEIR GOD asking for help…asking for food? Why is it we feel so comfortable making broad statements about OUR GOD helping us out and yet we do not stop for one second and think that, that just doesn’t make sense? I am NO GOD, I am by no means perfect but by golly if I were capable of making a decision between helping Greybeard or responding to the outcries of millions of people I would try my damnedest to listen to those cries and help them. (no offense, Greybeard) Did ‘those’ people just get bad luck? Are we the ‘lucky’ ones? Did we just happen to be born in to the right country where OUR GOD is more prevalent and easily assessable? What if I had the fate of being born into a family in India, or Haiti…or Africa. What if my parents, and their parents, and their parents parents all believed in a different GOD…THEIR GOD? What if I was threatened to be killed or disowned by my family if I decided to worship this suppose ‘TRUE GOD (OUR GOD)’…then what? I just don’t understand it. Is OUR GOD really this harsh? Is he really helping me when I am running late to work and making sure that all the lights stay green? Seriously? Is he really helping people finish in first place at a basketball game or football game? Is he really providing Mary Ann or Rick with a good doctor in order to cure the cancer or heart failure…but yet little Adom is sitting on a dirt floor infested with red ants and cockroaches crawling all over his body while he sleeps? Really? This is OUR GOD? Who’s GOD is this?

    I believe in a creator, I believe there is a higher source…what the source is…well I have no clue. I do believe in this ‘divine plan’…I do believe that a ‘source’ that is powerful enough to make the earth, solar system, and all the things here, does have some sort of plan. What it is? I have no idea. However, I can tell you this much, whatever that ‘plan’ is, I guarantee he isn’t changing things around in order to keep you or I feeling safe. Good and bad people die everyday, we get raped, murdered, robbed, we get our cars totaled by drunk drivers. Good and bad people also get promotions, they win the lotto, they get gifts from their lovers, and yes they even make money on items they have up for sale. Go figure. I believe in ‘chance’. I believe that you and I ‘by chance’ were born here in the US. I believe by ‘chance’ we happened to all find the JW’s and then ‘by chance’ realized it’s not everything it is cracked up to be. I believe ‘by chance’ we all ended up in our homes, with whatever ‘job’ we have…I don’t think any GRAND CREATOR did anything to help us get to where we are now.

    I walked around my hall humbled yet proud when I came back for the second time. Like I was some sort of religious guru. I spoke as if I had ‘been through’ something. As if all the heartache and burning in my heart while caring a child and giving birth with no mom or dad by my side was some sort of feat…as if I was someone to look up to. But now looking…who am I? I am NOBODY. I thought God was there for me when I was giving birth, and then again when my child was crying non stop for hours and I felt hopeless. I remember dozens of times when I locked myself in my bathroom, with the lights off, and fell to the ground in tears and just wept…cried and balled my eyes out for hours until my head pounded…until my throat hurt….until my eyes were bloodshot and puffy. Laying on the floor of my bathroom shaking with every nerve and every cell of my body bleeding out in pain, until I was drained of all energy…until I had no strength to even get up, until I fell soundly asleep, dreaming of a dream I once had about a life without guilt. Just begging and pleading to OUR GOD for strength to endure…to NOT KILL myself…to NOT throw my child through a window. Nights when I felt so alone, so isolated, I was drained of all emotion, I walked around like some sort of zombie for months after having my son. YET…I have no idea, I can’t even BEGIN to imagine what it is like to believe in a GOD and feel as if he does not care, as if he does not hear me. Can you imagine that? Can you imagine feeling more alone than you have ever felt? So poor, so hungry…and almost praying to just die…because really what else is there? To feel like you are being punished, to grow up in a world, thinking that the GOD we all speak so highly of can not find it within his heart to provide for me? Waking up day after day thinking this will be the day, this will be the day when MY GOD provides me with food to feed my children that were born out of me, through the men of the village that raped me? Could you imagine seeing your childs ribs sticking out of there skin, AND infected with AIDS or HIV? Now that is torture…that is raw…that is life… Something none of us will never understand. How dare we sit here and say GOD is providing for us… how dare we make these people feel as if their lives are worth so much less than ours. Because we can go to the store…we can purchase a bible, we can open it and actually READ it. These people can’t read, they can’t get jobs…they are dirt poor. So what is that…their fault? Ruth had mentioned that OUR GOD feels my pain, and he will help me through this. What does that even mean? Adom is hungry in Ghana…10 year old Kim was raped by her father last week, Stacey was killed by her jealous boyfriend, Jim was robbed for the $20 in is pocket and Hector was stabbed 22 times in the chest by his adopted son because GOD told him to do it. I don’t need GOD… to show me anything. I see it all with my own eyes. Why on earth is GOD going to take the time to ‘free my mind’… yet let Olivia get rapped and murdered by a stranger in the night? It doesn’t add up…it just doesn’t.

    We as people…as Americans…or however you want to describe us are so far from understanding what is going on here, it is just unreal. I can not seem to wrap my head around such simple minds (no offense, again). The GOD we think we know is not the GOD we portray him to be. He just isn’t.

    Please do not take offense to any this. I am not trying to argue, I’m just making a point. I think sometimes we think inside the box to much…I was just opening it a bit… that is all for now.

      (Quote)

  17. LostTime says:

    Although there are plenty of things that ‘frustrate me’ on this subject …I would like to pin point one…only because it was mentioned. (I did already type out an entire comment, and somehow it never got posted…so if it ends up here…and I sound as if I am repeating myself…well…it’s because I am)

    Greybeard mentioned in his post that he only had $200 to his name at some point…and OUR GOD some how miraculously provided him with a sale in order to make ends meet, per say. This is where I get confused. Right now as we speak (type/read) there are children/people all over the world, millions of them that are hungry, poor, and dying in certain countries. Little children like Kudyauku, Kabisa, Muriuki, Kiki, Mukanda and Adom. Children that happened to be born (by chance) into a country that is stricken with poverty. Can I also mention that ‘Adom’ is a name from Ghana (Africa) meaning ‘HELP FROM GOD’…who’s GOD? Not OUR GOD…THEIR GOD. Do you realize that every night these children scream out in pain…pain not because they stubbed their toe (that’s why our children cry)…but because they are actually dying of hunger. Right now…dying of hunger. Don’t you think Adom’s mom cries out every night to THEIR GOD asking for help…asking for food? Why is it we feel so comfortable making broad statements about OUR GOD helping us out and yet we do not stop for one second and think that, that just doesn’t make sense? I am NO GOD, I am by no means perfect but by golly if I were capable of making a decision between helping Greybeard or responding to the outcries of millions of people I would try my damnedest to listen to those cries and help them. (no offense, Greybeard) Did ‘those’ people just get bad luck? Are we the ‘lucky’ ones? Did we just happen to be born in to the right country where OUR GOD is more prevalent and easily assessable? What if I had the fate of being born into a family in India, or Haiti…or Africa. What if my parents, and their parents, and their parents parents all believed in a different GOD…THEIR GOD? What if I was threatened to be killed or disowned by my family if I decided to worship this suppose ‘TRUE GOD (OUR GOD)’…then what? I just don’t understand it. Is OUR GOD really this harsh? Is he really helping me when I am running late to work and making sure that all the lights stay green? Seriously? Is he really helping people finish in first place at a basketball game or football game? Is he really providing Mary Ann or Rick with a good doctor in order to cure the cancer or heart failure…but yet little Adom is sitting on a dirt floor infested with red ants and cockroaches crawling all over his body while he sleeps? Really? This is OUR GOD? Who’s GOD is this?

    I believe in a creator, I believe there is a higher source…what the source is…well I have no clue. I do believe in this ‘divine plan’…I do believe that a ‘source’ that is powerful enough to make the earth, solar system, and all the things here, does have some sort of plan. What it is? I have no idea. However, I can tell you this much, whatever that ‘plan’ is, I guarantee he isn’t changing things around in order to keep you or I feeling safe. Good and bad people die everyday, we get raped, murdered, robbed, we get our cars totaled by drunk drivers. Good and bad people also get promotions, they win the lotto, they get gifts from their lovers, and yes they even make money on items they have up for sale. Go figure. I believe in ‘chance’. I believe that you and I ‘by chance’ were born here in the US. I believe by ‘chance’ we happened to all find the JW’s and then ‘by chance’ realized it’s not everything it is cracked up to be. I believe ‘by chance’ we all ended up in our homes, with whatever ‘job’ we have…I don’t think any GRAND CREATOR did anything to help us get to where we are now.

      (Quote)

  18. LostTime says:

    I walked around my hall humbled yet proud when I came back for the second time. Like I was some sort of religious guru. I spoke as if I had ‘been through’ something. As if all the heartache and burning in my heart while caring a child and giving birth with no mom or dad by my side was some sort of feat…as if I was someone to look up to. But now looking…who am I? I am NOBODY. I thought God was there for me when I was giving birth, and then again when my child was crying non stop for hours and I felt hopeless. I remember dozens of times when I locked myself in my bathroom, with the lights off, and fell to the ground in tears and just wept…cried and balled my eyes out for hours until my head pounded…until my throat hurt….until my eyes were bloodshot and puffy. Laying on the floor of my bathroom shaking with every nerve and every cell of my body bleeding out in pain, until I was drained of all energy…until I had no strength to even get up, until I fell soundly asleep, dreaming of a dream I once had about a life without guilt. Just begging and pleading to OUR GOD for strength to endure…to NOT KILL myself…to NOT throw my child through a window. Nights when I felt so alone, so isolated, I was drained of all emotion, I walked around like some sort of zombie for months after having my son. YET…I have no idea, I can’t even BEGIN to imagine what it is like to believe in a GOD and feel as if he does not care, as if he does not hear me. Can you imagine that? Can you imagine feeling more alone than you have ever felt? So poor, so hungry…and almost praying to just die…because really what else is there? To feel like you are being punished, to grow up in a world, thinking that the GOD we all speak so highly of can not find it within his heart to provide for me? Waking up day after day thinking this will be the day, this will be the day when MY GOD provides me with food to feed my children that were born out of me, through the men of the village that raped me? Could you imagine seeing your childs ribs sticking out of there skin, AND infected with AIDS or HIV? Now that is torture…that is raw…that is life… Something none of us will never understand. How dare we sit here and say GOD is providing for us… how dare we make these people feel as if their lives are worth so much less than ours. Because we can go to the store…we can purchase a bible, we can open it and actually READ it. These people can’t read, they can’t get jobs…they are dirt poor. So what is that…their fault? Ruth had mentioned that OUR GOD feels my pain, and he will help me through this. What does that even mean? Adom is hungry in Ghana…10 year old Kim was raped by her father last week, Stacey was killed by her jealous boyfriend, Jim was robbed for the $20 in is pocket and Hector was stabbed 22 times in the chest by his adopted son because GOD told him to do it. I don’t need GOD… to show me anything. I see it all with my own eyes. Why on earth is GOD going to take the time to ‘free my mind’… yet let Olivia get rapped and murdered by a stranger in the night? It doesn’t add up…it just doesn’t.

    We as people…as Americans…or however you want to describe us are so far from understanding what is going on here, it is just unreal. I can not seem to wrap my head around such simple minds (no offense, again). The GOD we think we know is not the GOD we portray him to be. He just isn’t.

    Please do not take offense to any this. I am not trying to argue, I’m just making a point. I think sometimes we think inside the box to much…I was just opening it a bit… that is all for now.

      (Quote)

    • greybeard says:

      WOW LostTime, You really do make some great points! I have asked these same questions myself. Maybe your right, maybe every thing is just coincidence but I don’t think so… I don’t think God changes the traffic lights for us but I do feel he has provided for me. BECAUSE: Even if it wasn’t a direct miracle, I credit God for all good things. What my point was in my case, I had to loose almost everything before I learned to really trust him. Before I trusted more in myself. Now I try to apply Jesus words and not stress out about tomorrow.

      I am glad to hear that you do believe in a creator. It is true there are many very sad things happening in the world today. The Bible actually talks about these thing coming and they are here. Remember the four horsemen in Revelation? These all bring warfare and terrible famines along with awful plagues and diseases before Christ’s return. We see these things happening right before our eyes. Why are some countries poor/starving and others are not? Could it have anything to do with their leaders/kings or is it just bad luck? I don’t really know. Has God blesses the more faithful countries and not the unfaithful? I don’t know.

      This scripture comes to mind: Psalms 37:25, “I have been young, and now am old, yet I have not seen the righteous forsaken or his children begging for bread.” Children inherit their parents condition and the life cycle continues. It is VERY sad to say the least. All we can do is try to help out in any way possible. I have friends who travel to such lands and contribute what they can. I know I need to do more myself because Christ told us to look after such people. I am involved locally in helping others with addiction and I spend many hours per week and i can be called at any time to offer help. I try to make myself available. I do not know why good things happen for me when I do such things but they do. Not trying to brag here, just saying this seems to be the case not just for me but for everyone when we look out for others first. Maybe it is just my imagination but that would be hard for me to believe. Maybe there is something to Karma… Who knows? I don’t. One thing I do know, we reap what we sow and our children reap what we sow. I think this is a proven fact.

      I believe God will make all things right with everyone who has ever lived. Jesus said, “Do not marvel at this, the hour is coming when all those in the memorial tombs will hear my voice and come out.” Also the Bible tells us at 1 Corinthians 15:22, “For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.” So I believe God has everything accounted for and will correct matters here on Earth in his due time. I do not believe that only 7 million JWs will make it. I believe all 7 Billion will make it. That is my opinion. WHY? Because if God is ALL powerful and can do anything, then he can reach every persons heart. The Bible says he changes hearts. Please consider Romans 11:32, “For God has shut them all up together in disobedience, that he might show all of them mercy.” So you see, the Bible really teaches that God plans on saving ALL of his children here on Earth. YOU wont find that taught in most churches or religions because religion is all about controlling people through fear. The truth is, God wants to save ALL and he can save ALL. Will the creator of the universe not do what is right?

      Peace and good will to you LostTime,
      Your brother in Christ,
      Greybeard

        (Quote)

      • LostTime says:

        Greybeard,

        Where do people on sites such as this do their worship? You mentioned all religions control by fear, this leads me to believe you don’t attend a church. I have almost completely stopped attending meetings. Where do people in situations such as you and I go? Do you just study and meditate on your own?

          (Quote)

        • greybeard says:

          LostTime,

          Jesus said at Matthew 18:20, “For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I among them.” In the first century the Christians meet together in homes. You could do that with people around you. Some of us here meet over the phone and have conference calls. We are actually meeting together on this site in a way and sharing our hope with hundreds possibly thousands. Have you read Ray Franz books? In Search of Christian Freedom talks about this too. Ray has some great points in this area. I meet with a local xjw here where I live. It only takes two people and Christ says he will be there.

            (Quote)

          • LostTime says:

            Is there a site you recommend as far as locating xjws? Or is that all stuff that is kept sort of secret and anonymous like this site? It’s always nice to hang out with people that come from our same background, but since I move around so much for my job, it is close to impossible to find that. In my old town I have an entire crew of them, because we all grew up together, and those that fell away all still keep in contact. We all speak openly over txt, fb, ect but it’s not the same…it would be nice to have face to face contact where ever I go.

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  19. andrew says:

    Losttime,
    You’ve raised questions that I think most of us have pondered, I know I have. Even bible writers such as Habakkuk and faithful men such as Job questioned God’s actions.

    Personally I know that God exists and I am convinced He loves all. Why doesn’t He allieviate all suffering right now? Why does He allow the innocents to live miserable lives? The fact is I don’t have all the answers nor does any human.

    God does have the power correct every wrong and undo wrongs committed against the powerless and innocent. Throughout the whole bible the importance of helping the widow, orphan, and poor is again and again emphacized showing the love that God has for them.

    I think the best we can do is help these people in anyway we can and develop a childlike trust in God knowing that we don’t understand the whys of everything but we trust God to deal eventually with all humans with love and justice.

      (Quote)

  20. Ruth says:

    greybeard what you said was so true.
    What happened to you even down to your last $200.00 believing
    in and “trusting the heavenly father was an act of faith.
    He rewards people. He looks into hearts and sees genuine faith and rewards it. He will be very merciful at the resurrection.
    Yes he does say he wants to save all.

    People in dire circumstances always seem to call on God when in trouble only. Or if they want something. But! What about everyday of there lives? Making him there best friend. Not meaning Africia here. Just in general.As I will always advocate.
    It is a simple message. A simple gospel.

    Although what you said greybeard is true. Man and governments have caused dreadful devastation! Is our father to blame?
    Definitely not. All he ever wanted was for us on this planet to listen to him. The rewards in the future for those now trying to take his hand will be so wonderful.

    There will be a new heavens and a new earth where righteousness will dwell. Our King of Kings and Lord of Lords
    will be fair. Will be a just leader for all mankind.
    Praise our Lord. Amen.
    Ruth.

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  21. Ruth says:

    Lost time.
    Don’t take what I said that God loves you as an insult please.
    He does love you. His son died on a cross or stake for you.
    Died for everyone including all the people in Africia.

    Is Out father responsible for the governments ruining Africa and other places where humans end up starving?
    Greed and not caring for the earth like the governments are now doing in Europe Australia and America are responsible.

    Do they rest the soil? No! They have looked after nothing. The ordinary people here in the western world mostly are to lazy to even organize there own garbage bins!

    Do you know in Aficia the governments sprayed DTD in every home to kill mosquito’s Year in year out. The results have been horrible to animals the soil and humans.
    Like in Africia India and the pacific they are cutting down all the trees. Up to 10 miles a day.
    No! our father is not responsible.
    But let me say he soon will intervene. As a father Lost time, don’t you think also his heart is breaking to see what is going on down here?

    When we realize he has a time and a place to get the job done to restore mankind and this earth it will happen.

    Lost time. We ache just like you for people and planet.
    The difference being we know our God is going to take action.
    We do have complete trust in his word the bible. We do see him operate with us even in small blessing. As a father would mind you.

    I my self worked in a black nation for near on 30years. I saw real live Christians in action. I saw the way the people loved Jesus and his father. You know what? They, to this day have never gone without sustenance and covering. They would be the most beautiful people on this planet. Smiles white and wide.
    So beautiful. They worship with real spirit and truth.
    Lost time.
    No time will be lost for this planet. Its all coming to and end.
    Hope I do not sound unloving here. But when My father gets the blame not wanting to step in and help. or when he is accused of not being loving. I must defend his actions.
    Revelation 5:9. he will bring to ruin those ruining the earth.
    Why not accept it and believe it.
    Ruth.

      (Quote)

  22. Ruth says:

    bring to ruin those ruining the earth Rev 11-18.
    Sorry for misleading.
    ruth.

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  23. LostTime says:

    Thank you for the warm thoughts, and words. Greatly appreciated it. You speak truth when you talk of the frustration I feel realizing that ALL this time HAS in fact been wasted. I have wasted time putting so much guilt and pressure on myself to be this outstanding ‘sister’ (who also resides in the US of A) and have failed several times. I have had my parents turn on me and all of my friends. All the turmoil and heartache trying to get back and ‘win’ the hearts of my ‘fellow man’, proving to ‘them’, NOT to God, whether I was ‘GOOD ENOUGH’. It irritates my soul, my mind. That I went through all of that, for nothing. And yet, I am at peace, and have learned to put it behind me.

    I have taken all of your points into consideration. (Ruth, Amos, Greybeard and Andrew) I understand where you are coming from, and I truly thank you for taking the time to respond, I was expecting that. And to clarify I am not denying that there is A God…I am not ruling out the fact that there is a creator of some sort. And I don’t mean to sound like the ‘Devil’s Advocate’, but I have a few concerns that have lead me to where I am now.

    There is one concern that I want to bring up at this moment, only because it was mentioned in Greybeard’s statement, and then reiterated again in Ruth’s comment. First of all I do a TON of reading, I am a complete NERD, even though I don’t necessarily fit the profile. I read everything from romance to health and wellness (I’m a health fanatic) to philosophy and biblical writings. I consider myself a ‘well-rounded’ individual, a caring individual, with a good heart. I have done lots of readings on different countries, their upbringings, their religions, their different life styles.

    Greybeard had said that he had $200 to his name, and he has ‘faith’ in A GOD that ‘provided’ him with a ‘sale’ in order to keep him above water, per say. He mentioned that he can’t ‘ignore this because it was happened too many times’.

    This is where I get completely frustrated. What of ALL the people, and when I say ALL…I mean millions of people that have been raised in other countries were their GOD is not our GOD, it’s a completely different GOD. What of the millions that are starving? What of the millions that are infected with Aids, or HIV? We talk here in the US of $200 being a tough place to be in…that is NOTHING. Where is GOD when these young children, these babies are dying, literally right before our eyes? Don’t you think they are praying to ‘A GOD’? What if their parents, and the parents before them, and the parents before them all believed in THEIR GOD…what if they know nothing of our GOD…are their prayers being answered? Greybeard made a sale, but little Shangilia, Akinsanya, Maarifa, Adom, and Mbwelera are hungry, they are sleeping in the dirt, and haven’t had food for three days. Can I mention that ‘Adom’ is a name from Ghana meaning ‘help from god’ (Ghana, although looking better within the last few years, has been one of the ‘poorest’ country’s in Africa.) These people clearly believe in A GOD, I’m sure Adom’s mom prays daily for food, I’m sure she cries out in desperation, I’m sure she works harder and sweats more than any of us spoiled Americans ever have. Doesn’t that bother you? Like I said, I consider myself a ‘good person, solid heart’ and although imperfect, although having NO CLUE what is right and what is wrong at times….I would be trying my damnedest to help Adom get some food and a bath before worrying about Greybeard making a sale. Now please don’t read into this, I may be coming across harsh, I don’t mean to be, please understand that I am saying all of this with good/if not great intentions. I just don’t get it. What if I had the unfortunate fate of being born into a family a India, or Haiti, or Africa where their GOD is different then ‘OUR GOD’…what if my parents threatened to kill or never speak to me again (similar to Jw’s)…then what? We can not HELP the ‘path’ that was handed down to us, we speak here on this forum as if we are ‘educated people that know ‘things”…we don’t know anything. We don’t know what it’s like to have NOTHING, literally NOTHING. To wake up dirty on a dirt/mud floor. To be bathing in a muddy puddle, to not be able to provide for your children, we have NO CLUE. Where is GOD for those people, is it their fault that their ‘fate’ dropped them into the poorest area in the world? Are we the ‘lucky’ ones to have been born in a free country…were ‘THE REAL GOD’ is more prevalent and easily assessable? How is this fair? I am starting to realize that their are certain things, way more than you or I could ever imagine, that are completely out of our control. It’s not a ‘faith’…it’s a coincidence… good things happen…bad things happen to all people all day long. I don’t believe that Greybeard got a sale because OUR GOD saw he needed help, I believe he got a sale because someone who was looking for the product just ‘happened’ to be on that site at that time…that is it. Good people who believe in OUR GOD are raped everyday, they are killed, murdered…they get into car accidents (like I did a few weeks ago)…we get sucked into religions like Catholics or Jehovah’s Witnesses and we allow humans to guide us… we are afraid to leave because our family and friends will disown us. It has nothing to do with anything, I don’t believe we are ‘luckier’ I don’t believe OUR GOD watches out for us, while there are millions of good people just like you and I dying everyday from malnutrition. I can’t believe it. What kind of God would do that? What kind of God would listen to Greybeard prayers for a bit more money to cover his expenses for the week but completely ignores the screams every night of children crying because they are literally starving…starving to death? No God would do that, not my God…not the GOD…not your GOD…it doesn’t make sense. People are born into certain areas by chance. They are brought up into a certain ‘religion’, ‘idea’, ‘way of life’ by chance. They get robbed, murdered, raped, killed by drunk drivers by chance. They win the lotto, get a promotion, get a gift from their lover, ‘make a sale’…by chance. There is no outside source helping things go a certain way, there can’t be. God has a divine plan, it is already set…it is already in it’s works, I don’t believe he is changing and adapting that plan to fit anyone’s life style or decisions they may have made to get into the situation they are already in.

    I use give myself A BIG PAT ON THE BACK, like I’m some sort of superhero because I endured being disfellowshipped twice. I didn’t have any friends, because I was isolated. I cried my eyes out…I pleaded with MY GOD, asked him to show me the light, asked him to give me understanding…and he did (I feel). I would brag about how I ‘endured’ that, and I came back, not once, but twice. I talked like I was some sort of great religious guru who was going to save the world. I’m NOBODY, none of us are. We have no idea what it is like out there….we can’t even begin to imagine the burn…and hearthache…the torture…

      (Quote)

    • greybeard says:

      Dear LostTime,

      Please notice what I said in my last comment:

      “…but I do feel he (God) has provided for me. BECAUSE: Even if it wasn’t a direct miracle, I credit God for all good things.”

      In other words, I am not claiming a direct miracle from God on my behalf. I realize what sold is most likely by chance. But what I do get, I thank him for it. Maybe God uses Karma… I can’t prove he doesn’t and sometimes I think maybe he does as we “reap what we sow”. I do not blame God for the bad things in my life or the bad in this world.

      Please notice what you said indicates that God has helped you also:

      “I cried my eyes out…I pleaded with MY GOD, asked him to show me the light, asked him to give me understanding…and he did (I feel).” I feel he helped you too.

        (Quote)

  24. LostTime says:

    (SORRY FOR THE DOUBLE COMMENTS…THE ORIGINAL COMMENTS NEVER POSTED, AND I RETYPED THE WHOLE THING. =)…I APOLOGIZE)

    I do understand what you are saying Greybeard, and thank you…I like to think that too. The only reason I question it, is because I don’t feel as if I am any better, any luckier, or any more worthy than anyone else. I have a hard time wrapping my head around the fact that Our God is going to go out of his way to comfort me in my dark bathroom floor because I am a tad bit overwhelmed, yet completely ignore a crying child on a cold dirt floor in the middle of the night.

    I understand where all of you are coming from. I consider myself ‘fairly’ well versed, most of the scriptures quoted here are familiar to me. I threw myself into the bible 100% while I was df’d both times…and continued even afterward. I read the bible every single night like clock work. I claimed to have had Jehovah by my side every single night while I slept. I claimed that he became my best friend at one point, we spoke openly all day long. I felt secure, I felt safe. It was the most fantastic feeling I have ever felt in my life. If heaven were ever on earth, I was in it. It was amazing. I don’t think I could ever describe in words just what it was like. I always imagined getting that relationship back, but I was ‘sinning’ as a JW and ‘again’ wasn’t feeling ‘worthy’ of God’s time. So we lost contact with each other, and since then I have fallen into all sorts of religions/ ideas/ and philosophies on how the earth and us humans arrived here, why we are here, and what we are suppose to be doing. Which is when I fell upon this site.

      (Quote)

    • rus virgil says:

      Lost Time, greetings !
      I read some of your comments and I think I understand some of what you said
      and I thought I would say a few words to you
      ( but I am a simple man , not a “doctor” in human psychology )
      It is right that Jesus said : “And this is life eternal, that they should know thee the only true God”
      …we should know Him, the only true God”
      – to know Him includes the fact of finding God true , as apostle Paul said (Romans 3 )
      4. God forbid: yea,
      >> let God be found true, but every man a liar; as it is written,
      >> That thou mightest be justified in thy words, And mightest prevail when thou comest into judgment.

      Seeing the situations around us / what happens within humankind / make us wondering if God is true (or just )
      -our own “way of seeing the things” or our own feelings may not find God true , but we should “strive to find Him true”
      -because our earthly nature prevents us to “find God true”, it results
      that we have to have a “fight within ourselves” in order to “find God true”, and only by doing so we may “prevail when we come to judgment”

      So my wish for you (and my encouragement) is to have this fight within yourself in order to find God true and to prevail during God’s judgment !

      God is surely ABLE to end the suffering humankind is experiencing / He is the ONLY OWNER of each human soul , He is in charge to solve the problems within His living creation and He does this for sure in His own way – and we are to learn from Him.
      By humbling ourselves before Him (recognizing our position before Him) we may resolve our own “problem” and this will lead us to have peace with Him and to have the life He is giving (in His Kingdom ).

      Be blessed.

        (Quote)

  25. Ruth says:

    Lost Time.
    JESUS SAID WHEN TWO OR MORE ARE GATHERED TO GETHER HE WOULD BE
    THERE IN THERE MIDST. BELIEVE IT. THE REASON YOU ARE QUESTIONING EVERYTHING IS HE IS CALLING YOU HOME TO HIMSELF.
    IT IS CALLED THE WILDERNESS. IT IS ANY PLACE YOU TAKE IN PRIVATE
    TO DO YOUR RESEARCH, READ MEDITATE LETTING THE HOLY SPIRIT NOW TEACH THE THE REAL TRUTH. AND THE REAL TRUTH IS JESUS. ITS ALL ABOUT HIM NOW. THE FATHER SENT HIS SON NOT A CHURCH OR AN ORGANIZATION.
    WE BROTHERS AND SISTERS HE IS TEACHING ARE ALL AT DIFFERENT STAGES OF UNDERSTANDING AND GROWTH. BUT MIND YOU HOPEFULLY HEADING IN THE SAME DIRECTION AS THE HOLY SPIRIT LEADS AND TEACHES US.

    YOU WILL FIND THAT HE WANTS INDIVIDUAL TIME WITH YOU. SO IF A QUITE TIME ALL ALONE STARTS HAPPENING DO NOT BE AFRAID.PRAY ASK HIM TO TEACH YOU. LATELY HE HAS TAUGHT ME THE REAL RIGHTEOUSNESS. WE THINK AND TICK OFF THE BOX IN OUR MINDS TO THE MEANING OF THE WORD RIGHTEOUSNESS. THE WORLD HAS SHAPED OUT YJMKINH

      (Quote)

  26. Ruth says:

    Lost time and everyone.
    Sorry about my ending up in the last post!The whole thing just flicked off in front of my eyes?

    Anyway. Here is great encouragement.

    And I am certain that God, who began the good work within you, will continue his work until it is finally finished on the day when Christ Jesus returns.
    Philippians 1:6, NLT
    Do you sometimes feel as though you aren’t making progress in your spiritual life? When God starts a project, he completes it! As with the Philippians, God will help you grow in grace until he has completed his work in your life.
    When you are discouraged, remember that God won’t give up on you. He promises to finish the work he has begun. When you feel incomplete, unfinished, or distressed by your shortcomings, remember God’s promise and provision. Don’t let your present condition rob you of the joy of knowing Christ or keep you from growing closer to him.
    Ruth.

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  27. LostTime says:

    Again…not to argue. Rus Virgil- I agree with your comment:

    ‘let God be found true, but every man a liar; as it is written, that thou mightest be justified in thy words, And mightest prevail when thou comest into judgment. ‘

    But, besides ‘faith’…which like I stated above, is really only real, if it is actually possessed by someone, what else is there to say that the ‘man’/’men’ who wrote the bible were NOT liars themselves? How do we know that this ‘lie’ didn’t start way in the beginning? Men themselves ALWAYS tell small lies, or manipulate situations/ ideas, fabricate, or emphasize certain things to ‘sway’ others in their direction. How do we know that what the bible says isn’t somewhat jaded, just as the ‘witnesses’ sort of use their literature to ‘sway’ other Jehovah’s Witnesses in a certain direction. Just because these men were ‘chosen’ by Our God to write…doesn’t mean anything. Jehovah also ‘supposably’ created Adam, who was perfect, and we all know what ‘supposably’ happened with that whole ordeal.

    Just saying…

      (Quote)

  28. greybeard says:

    Dear LostTime,

    Where in the Bible does it say Adam was created ‘perfect’? If he was actually created perfect then he wouldn’t have needed to eat of the tree of life. Neither Adam or Eve ate of that tree. Some men (JW’s do) say Adam and Eve were perfect but the Bible does not say that. Also, no where in the Bible does it say “this book is perfect” or “this book is the unadulterated word of God.” We all know the Bible has been tampered with. As one example, some are pro trinity and some are not. So for sure, we do have to sift through the lies or bias of man who wrote or translated the Bible.

    However, I have found one thing to hold true through out the Bible and that is the words of Christ Jesus and his teachings. THEY are VERY clear. He is clear about who he is and who sent him and why he came. That message shines through in EVERY Bible. One needs to really twist things to try and paint some three in one trinity God.

    Jesus core teaching on LOVE are what I try to live my life by. I don’t believe God is going to judge us based on the doctrine we came to believe but rather on our heart condition and how we show love to others. Jesus set a fine example did he not?

    Your own heart can lead you down many roads as you search for truth. You can question everything to the point of loosing all faith in God if you so choose. It is a path that many xjw’s have taken. They say they “need proof” of a caring God. I understand this but it can take a selfish/dangerous course in my opinion. For me, I have all the proof I need in the words of Christ and all of the prophecies fulfilled in Christ. I believe he existed and is the Son of God/Jehovah/Yahweh. He showed mankind his power and his love and said, “do not marvel at this, the hour is coming when all those in the memorial tombs will hear my voice and come out.”

    It takes faith to believe these words. I have that faith. I pray for it and ask God to renew it everyday. However I could loose it if I were to take a different course doubting all that I have came to know and believe seeking a self pleasing life again. The more you study Jesus life and words, the more, hopefully you will have the faith you need. If it never comes to you… If you have doubts the rest of your life… You still can practice LOVE and do all you can to help heal this world can you not? You can set the example for others to follow. You can teach your child to love and heal others. Many chose a life of self seeking pleasure. I know I did for years even though I thought I was being a good JW or Christian. The truth is, I wasn’t. Now, I try to be and I fall short all of the time. At least now I am trying to help others in whatever way I can. I focus on addiction recovery and if I can, leading others to Christ alone, not man or religion. I always feel I need to do more. Jesus did it to the point where he had no place to lay his head or call his own. All he did was help others and heal them. Then, he gave his own life for all of mankind. All of this was prophesied long before Jesus came to Earth. I don’t believe we can find a better example than Christ Jesus.

    I pray you find what you are searching for. I pray you find faith in Christ and you ask for Holy Spirit to guide you. Whatever the case, if one truly believes in Christ and follows his example, is it not a good thing? Many claim to follow him but truth is, THEY DON’T. That is why we have all the wars and problems we have. Then many blame Jesus saying it is religions fault. YES, it is religions fault but JESUS has NOTHING to do with these religions!

    Jesus is the WAY, TRUTH and the LIFE.
    May you find peace no matter where your path leads you,

    Your brother in Christ,
    Greybeard

    P.S. Sometimes I miss comments on these threads. Feel free to e-mail me at greybeardjws(@)gmail.com

      (Quote)

    • Greybeard said,

      “Some men (JW’s do) say Adam and Eve were perfect but the Bible does not say that.”

      Doesn’t the Bible imply Adam was perfect. We know sin and death came into the world because of Adams act of disobedience. Does not the absence of sin and it’s consequences indicate perfection? The perfection that Adam had prior to the fall? Perfection has nothing to do with the Tree of Life in my opinion. This tree was simply a symbol of Adams reliance on Jehovah for continued life and every good blessing. By allowing Adam to continue eating from it Jehovah reaffirmed his commitment to Adam for life, sort of like a conditional contract. His eating of this tree was an act of submission, a surrendering of his self will to the will of the Almighty. An acknowledgement of his reliance on the Father. The exact opposite of the Tree of the knowledge of good and bad. As a perfect man, Adam had life without death but not immortality. Perfect (but possibly naive) Adam still had freewill and as we know, made the wrong choice. Jesus was perfect, which in the bible is equated to his being without sin (a Lamb without blemish). Yet as a perfect man he still could have chosen to sin otherwise the wilderness temptations are meaningless.

      Just my opinion, of which I am the worlds leading expert. :)

      Your Brother Always,

      Dennis

        (Quote)

      • greybeard says:

        Hi Dennis,

        I would think perfect would mean he would have immortality but I don’t know. I don’t see where the Bible implies he was perfect. Man having “free will” is another subject too. If God hardens hearts and holds men in the prison of sin then where is the free will? Romans 11:32, “For God has shut them all up together in disobedience, that he might show all of them mercy.”

        I believe you are right when you said Adam was “possibly naive.” How could he not be? Can a person be perfect and naive at the same time? I think “perfect” is a relative term and over used when speaking of Adam and Eve.

        That is my opinion bro of which I am the worlds leading expert too :)

        Hope to see you soon Big D,

        You brother,
        Greybeard

          (Quote)

        • Hello back at you,

          I don’t see perfect as meaning immortal (I know of no place in the bible that supports such an idea). I see it as the absence of sin and it’s consequences. I believe the bible supports this view. Immortality and conditional life without sin and it’s consequence death are two different things in my mind.

          D

            (Quote)

          • greybeard says:

            and back at you :)

            I don’t claim to know the answers to these questions… I just feel this way… If Adam was perfect then he made a perfect decision to eat from the tree right? So then, I would think a resurrection would not be the just thing. However, I believe Adam will be resurrected as you do. I don’t think what Adam and Eve did, sin, was a one in a million or billion chance. I believe it was a probability and very possibly apart of Gods plan. How could an all knowing God not know the likely hood of this? Some say if Adam and Eve wouldn’t have eaten from the tree of knowledge they would have lived forever. I don’t see it that way. They still needed to eat from the tree of life. Are these real tree’s or is this all an allegory? I think it could possibly be an allegory. Why would God need to provide a tree of life to give eternal life? It all sounds symbolic to me. I don’t see how anyone can be dogmatic about it either way like the JW’s are. They claim to understand all of this and if you don’t agree sharing a different opinion you are DFed.

            I would be interested is seeing the Bible support to your views on Adam being perfect. Maybe I am missing something. It sure wont be the first time or the last.

            Your bro,
            Greybeard

              (Quote)

  29. LostTime says:

    You are right…I never realized that…until I just looked that up. It does NOT say anywhere that Adam was perfect. Where in the world did I get that idea? Weird. Was that something I just made up? Or is that something Jw’s teach?

      (Quote)

    • greybeard says:

      Many teach that including JW’s. If he was perfect he wouldn’t have needed to eat from the tree of life to live forever. They were kicked out from the garden of Eden so they couldn’t eat from it…

        (Quote)

  30. Amos says:

    BRos Dennis & Greybeard,

    I agree with Dennis concerning Adam & Eve being created perfect. My understanding of this is as Dennis said, sinless & unblemished.

    Consider why Jesus was called “the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world”.
    If we consider the first known acceptable sacrifice, it was a lamb, as was the passover, & certain other sacrifices. There are many such references pertaining to our Lord. I’ve brought this in as He was unblemished, sinless, etc, as the sacrificial lamb had to be.

    Another angle to this is for Jesus to be a corresponding ransom for Adam, “if Jesus was perfect, then Adam also had to be perfect”, otherwise the scales would not balance.

    Regarding the tree of life, I see that this was possibly a species/type of trees that only grew within Eden. I believe that whilever they ate from these trees, they had “endless life” (not immortality), however when they were stopped from eating of this tree, they began to die. “The wages of sin is death”, this is why they were put outside of Eden, because they sinned. I believe that if they’d remained sinless, they may have lived eternally, not however as immortal humans.

    Just a few thoughts.

    Your brother,
    Amos

      (Quote)

    • Yes Amos, if Adam wasn’t perfect that would negate the purpose of the corresponding ransom. What did Jesus’ perfect human life, sacrificed for mankind, correspond to if not perfect Adam? If Adam wasn’t perfect it would not have been necessary for Jesus to pay that price. One of Adams offspring could have done it instead. I believe that the biblical proof lies there. What is perfection anyway but the absence of sin and it’s consequences. What perfection isn’t is immortality IMO. I do believe that mankind’s fall was always anticipated by Jehovah and his plan of redemption and restoration has been in place from the founding of the world (for the life of me I can’t remember the scripture I want to support this thought – it’s the Mad Cow Disease).

      Dennis

        (Quote)

  31. Willie says:

    Was Adam perfect?–and Eve? Gen. 1:27 says, “So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.” Being in the image of God IS perfect.
    Amos brought out an excellent point: “Another angle to this is for Jesus to be a corresponding ransom for Adam, ‘if Jesus was perfect, then Adam also had to be perfect’, otherwise the scales would not balance.” I agree with Dennis and Amos.

      (Quote)

  32. Ruth says:

    I have to agree strongly with Amos here. Another angle to this is for Jesus to be a corresponding ransom for Adam,

    “if Jesus was perfect, then Adam also had to be perfect”, otherwise the scales would not balance.
    That statement alone makes it quite clear to me anyway that Adam and Eve would have been perfect.

    Also In Deu 32:4 Its says Ascribe greatness to our GOD! “The rock! his work is perfect. All is ways are just!
    Romans speaks of Gods acceptable and perfect will. 12.2
    “Nothing less than perfect”

    “Regarding Adam and Eve not having had immortality”.
    This makes sense as well as 1Tim 6 speaks about the King of Kings and lord of lords ALONE possesses immortality.

    Although mind you! God did put eternity in the heart of man!
    making man for his eternal purpose. Ecclesiastes 3-11

    Romans 8-28. The purpose of God.

    And we know that God (CAUSES ALL)things to work to gether for the good of those who love God to those that are called according to HIS PURPOSE. For those who he foreknew, he predestined to be come CONFORMED to the image of this Son, so that he would be the 1st born among many brothers. And those he predestined, He also called and these whom he called he also justified and he glorified.

    This what I have been taught since leaving the tower.
    Satan has put some truth in all religions it seems.
    But now we are being freed we can see Jesus is the only truth.
    He is the way the truth and the life!

    Many reasons for celebrations here! So much to be happy for.
    Rejoice! be happy. Don’t let this old world get you down.
    Keep smiling everybody. No matter the circumstances. It is all temporary.
    Ruth your sister in the Lord.

      (Quote)

  33. greybeard says:

    I never did say that Adam and Eve were not perfect because I do not know. What I did say is the Bible does not say Adam and Eve were perfect anywhere. If sinlessness were perfection then would not a newborn child who has yet to sin be perfect? I don’t know. I do understand the ransom and why Jesus had to pay the price. I just feel like the word perfect is over used when referring to Adam and Eve. If they were perfect in every way, why the mistake? To me, perfection is when God grants immortality and they never had that. Did Jesus have immortality before he came to Earth or was he granted that after his resurrection?

      (Quote)

    • “I never did say that Adam and Eve were not perfect because I do not know. What I did say is the Bible does not say Adam and Eve were perfect anywhere.”

      Noted – You are right, you never said that.

      “If sinlessness were perfection then would not a newborn child who has yet to sin be perfect? I don’t know.”

      I do not think so because we are all born in iniquity. We’ve inherited it.

      “I just feel like the word perfect is over used when referring to Adam and Eve. If they were perfect in every way, why the mistake?”

      It wasn’t a mistake due to imperfection. It wasn’t a mistake at all. It was willful disobedience. Christ was perfect, yet had he wanted to, he could have been willfully disobedient also.

      “To me, perfection is when God grants immortality and they never had that. Did Jesus have immortality before he came to Earth or was he granted that after his resurrection?”

      I’ll let someone else tackle this but if pressed I would have to say he didn’t have immortality at anytime prior to his resurrection. Jesus died while a human and ceased to exist in any form, so he was mortal and was totally reliant upon YHWH for a resurrection and future life as a spirit being. If this were not the case he wouldn’t have been that corresponding ransom.

      Dennis

        (Quote)

      • greybeard says:

        Thanks Big D 😉

        Question:

        God/YHWH/Jehovah must have known Jesus would not choose to sin. Why is that? His good parents? Was he different than Adam? I say he WAS different or he might have sinned. God knew Jesus would not sin. He foretold EVERYTHING. Was not Jesus a better man then Adam from the start? He seems far more “perfect” than Adam to me.

          (Quote)

  34. Willie says:

    Would God, who is perfect, create imperfect sons–be they men (Gen. 1:27) or angels (Gen. 6:2)? The answer is, “No.” Adam was “the son of God” (Luke 3:38), created out of the dust of the earth. Jesus was the Son of God who came down from heaven (John 3:31-33) and was changed {shrunk, if you will}, without dying, from the great archangel, Michael, who held the heavenly position of the Logos–the Word (John 1:1), the spokesperson for God–to a fertilized egg containing the DNA of Jesus and was born a fleshly being so that he would be a corresponding price for the ransom of Adam and all his flesh, including Eve. This explains why she was made from a rib of his body.
    Why does Jesus seem far more “perfect” than Adam? Because he had been with the Father, God Almighty, for more years than we could imagine, in all probably, and he had personally watched over the Isralites as his Father’s representative ever since God picked them for his chosen people (Gen 48:16; Ex. 23:20-23; 32:34). {In the KJV “Angel” is capitalized in all the scriptures given here, but in the NWT this distinction is not made. By observing this unique point it prevents the confusion of some of you who are suggesting that Jehovah God of the Old Testament is the same as Jesus in the New Testament. NO WAY, my friends.}
    Since God created everything, this is God’s world, and he has favorites–that is his perogative! The Israelites were the family God picked to work out his Divine Plan. In Amos 3:2 we read, “You only have I known of all the families of the earth….” That is why Michael was called “the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people in Daniel 12:1. As Michael, the Logos, Jesus had experience and knowledge before he left his heavenly position of glory to become flesh. Adam was created out of the dust of the earth and became flesh when Jehovah God breathed into his nostrils the breath of life. Adam had no earthly parents, so he was created a “fully grown” man. Being perfect on the earthly plan does not mean that you don’t have to eat, anymore than it means you don’t have to breath; thus the earth provided the nutrients to keep Adam alive and that is where the tree of life comes into the picture. Certainly Adam was NOT immortal; neither was Jesus, for they both died.
    Does Jesus have immortality now? A lot of people think so, but I don’t. I believe that Jesus and his Bride, the church will receive immortality as a wedding gift from the Father (Rom. 8:17). Perhaps he received the Divine nature when he returned to Heaven after his resurrection. I would be more specific than “perhaps” in my opinion, if I really knew what having the Divine nature actually entailed. All Jesus asked for in his prayer (John 17:5) was to be restored to the position he had when he was previously in Heaven with his Father.
    Some people balk at the notion that Adam died for “eating a piece of fruit” because they don’t really understand the significance behind the action. Adam must have been really lonely before Eve was created, seeing that even the animials had mates. As an instrument of Satan, the serpent deceived Eve, but the Bible says that Adam was NOT deceived (I Tim. 2:14). So what was the problem? He knew when Eve ate the fruit that she was going to die because he believed God, but he thought that he couldn’t live without her, so he put his love for Eve before his love for God and essentially “committed suicide” for the love of Eve, thus breaking the first commandment, “Thou shalt have no other gods before me.” Adam made a “god” out of Eve.
    Will ALL be saved, since it is not God’s will that any should perish? If there is a Second Death–and there is (Rev. 2:11; 20:6,14; 21:8)–the answer is “NO.” Many uses of the word “all” have a stated or implied qualifier. In this case, I would suggest this: ALL [the obedient] will be saved. If the world in the Kingdom for which we pray (Matt 6:10) is going to be perfect then all the inhabitants have to be perfect. The disobedient are NOT perfect, thus we know that the disobedient WILL perish as we read in John 3:16. God did not want a creation of robots to worship him for it would mean nothing. Our “free will” is what makes us unique from the lower animals who are programed to act in certain ways. [Who taught birds how to build their particular nest?] God wants the earth filled with human beings that love Him and worship Him for His benevolence to them–his goodness and mercy that will follow them all the days of their life in eternity. This is the “sands of the sea” promise to Abraham.
    Earth has been allowed “the permission of evil” because Earth is the beginning of God’s plan for humanity throughout the universe. How better to learn the exceeding sinfulness of sin than to experience it? Jesus will not die again on some other planet. Earth will be held out as the supreme example for eternity. Perhaps its obedient inhabitants will receive some special priviledges for their having to endure the persmission of evil. As for the spiritual promises, at no other time will there be the offer to forsake all to become the Bride of Christ–to live and reign with him with the promise of immortality, a state of having life within oneself. “For since the beginning of the world men have not heard, nor perceived by the ear, neither hath the eye seen, O God, beside thee, what he hath prepared for him that waitheth for him” (Isa. 64:4). And Paul repeats it in I Cor. 2:9, “But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.”–a second witness! Praise ye the LORD!

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    • greybeard says:

      Thank you Willie,

      That was a great post! I understand that Christ lived before being born on Earth. Truly he did have an advantage over Adam didn’t he. I am sure everything God makes is “perfect” but that word “perfect” is a broad term is it not? Was Adam as “perfect” as Jesus? I don’t know but I don’t think so. As far as “ALL” being saved. I understand what you are saying and how you are qualifying this statement. I don’t agree completely and I may be wrong. If God is perfect then he doesn’t make mistakes right? We are talking about perfection are we not? If Satan takes anything away from God than he has won. John 3:39, “And this is the will of God, that I should not lose even one of all those he has given me, but that I should raise them up at the last day.” Did he not die for the “whole world” or just those who love God? Did not God give Christ everything? Jesus said if we love only those who love us we are no different then the world. We must love our enemies too. So then, would not God love those who do not love him, his enemies? If we are to have unlimited forgiveness for our fellow man then why put limits on God? I have always understood the second death to be the end of it all but where in the Bible does it say that? Maybe it is, I don’t know. I believe God, if he so chooses, can give his children as many chances as it takes. If you get a chance, read “Hope Beyond Hell” here” http://www.hopebeyondhell.net / I tend to agree with most everything there. Like I said, I may be wrong. Didn’t Jesus say he had more things to tell us but we could not bear them? There is SO MUCH that we do NOT know even though we think we do.

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  35. Willie says:

    Dear Greybeard, Why do men think that “we are to have unlimited forgiveness for our fellow man”? Is it because of Peter’s question in Matt. 18:21,22–“Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times? Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.” This question was concerning a spiritual brother–not a natural brother–and gives us the limit of the times we are to forgive; however, there is another criteria of equal it not greater importance and it is the CONDITIONS OF FORGIVENESS found in Luke 17:3,4–“Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, REBUKE HIM: and IF HE REPENT, forgive him. And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him.” Matt. 18:35 also uses the word “brother” to indicate a spiritual brother. This does not promote carte blanche forgiveness for any and everything to any and everybody; that simply in not in accord with what the Bible teaches. IN EVERY CASE REPENTANCE PRECEDES FORGIVENESS. [Please note that Luke 23:34 is spurious.]
    Isaiah 2:6-9 ends with the words: “forgive them not.” Jeremiah 18:23 says, Yet, LORD, thou knowest all their counsel against me to slay me: forgive not their iniquity, neither blot out their sin from thy sight, but let them be overthrown before thee; deal thus with them in the time of thine anger.” Evidently the prophets of the Old Testament were under a somewhat different set of rules from the spirit-begotten Christian in the New Testament.
    We are to love OUR enemies, but not GOD’S enemies. Psalm 139:19-22 is a good example where David, a man after God’s own heart, said: “Surely thou wilt slay the wicked, O God: depart from me therefore, ye bloody men. For they speak against thee wickedly, and thine enemies take thy name in vain. Do not I hate them, O LORD, that hate thee? and am not I grieved with those that rise up against thee? I hate them with perfect hatred: I count them mine enemies.”
    Admonitions to “love” and “forgive” have to be kept in context. I did read what you suggested and was somewhat alarmed at a couple of the statements in the review (I have not read the book), which I am going to quote. For instance: “‘Hope Beyond Hell’ is one of the best books ever written showing from Scripture that God’s judgments are remedial, corrective, and temporary.” Dr. Stephen Jones, M.Div., D.D., Author, speaker.
    My comment: The word “temporary” is not found in my Bible and I object to this connotation. I think that Dr. Jones will find that God’s judgments are “everlasting” in the long run. Universal salvation is NOT taught in the Bible in any sense of the word.

    And this by the author of the book, “Hope Beyond Hell” who says: “This book examines the Augustinian tradition of everlasting punishment, so-called because it stems principally from the theology of Augustine, who is said to be the father of the western Church.4 This tradition assumes that the vast majority of the human race will never be saved. This is based on passages such as, ‘Narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it’ (Mt. 7:14 – see page 220 #9). However is this what Christ meant by these words? This book presents abundant Scriptural evidence why this could not be what Christ and the Apostles taught.”
    My comment: I quit believing in eternal torment about 45 years ago and I applaud the author if he has succeeded in changing the opinion of any one of mankind on this issue for it blasphemes our Heavenly Father in the worst possible way. Hopefully the book goes on to explain that the New Testament was written for the development of the true Church–NOT the world of mankind who will be dealt with in the Kingdom soon to come. There will only be 144,000 members of the Church and Matt. 7:14 was written for those who are running for the High Calling in Christ Jesus. The way IS straight and narrow if only 144,000 will make it through the gate to become the Bride of Christ. The Great Multitude, who are also striving for the High Calling, will probably number in the millions and they, as a mercy class, will get a secondary position in heaven as servants before the throne. Unfortunately, some of the spirit-begotten will abandon their consecration vows and will end up being in the Judas class and will consequently reap the Second Death–eternal oblivion.

    God’s four attributes are Justice, Power, Love and Wisdom. Love cannot overrule Justice and Power cannot override Wisdom–they are all perfectly balanced. Glory to God in the Highest!

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    • greybeard says:

      Dear Willie,

      Thank you for your time and efforts… You may be right. I hope not but you might be… I don’t know… I still lean towards universal salvation. You have not convinced that God will not get what he desires, 1 Timothy 2:4, 2 Peter 3:9, Ezekiel 18:23. God has the ability to change hearts and he does this despite what men believe about “free will.” Ezekiel 36:26, “I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.” Romans 11:32, “For God has shut every person into disobedience so that he shall have mercy upon every person.” Were do you find mans “free will” in Romans 11:32 and Ezekiel 36:26? Sounds to me like God is going to get what he wants no matter what many might think. To say otherwise in my opinion is judging our fellow man with our own will not Gods. The dead are living to God. Jesus said, “do not marvel at this, the hour is coming when ALL those in the memorial tombs will come out.” It is Gods WILL that Christ LOOSE none and God gave him the world John 6:39. You say Luke 21:34 is spurious? That is debatable and unless you were there I doubt anyone really knows. However to me, it surly sound like something our Lord Christ Jesus would say. WHY wouldn’t he? He was GIVING his LIFE for the WORLD was he not? Is 1 John 2:2 spurious too? He died for ALL of mankind!!! For sinners, NOT the righteous. If he died for the righteous then he died for nothing because there is NOT ONE righteous person on this planet. NOT ONE Romans 3:10. How will Psalm 86:9 ever be fulfilled if God destroys all of his enemies eternally? WHY can’t he get what he REALLY WANTS? Do you think God cannot win the LOVE of every man unless he creates robots? I believe he can win the heart of every man if he so desires and I believe that is his desire as the Bible teaches! HE CHANGES HEARTS. What does that mean? He can do it. Is anything to great for our creator???

      Willie, I don’t expect to convince you of anything and I do not want to debate this issue with you. Everything is in our heavenly fathers hands and I trust he will do what is right. He wiped out Sodom and Gomorrah but they will be resurrected Matthew 10:15. So just because God ends a life on this Earth does not mean it is over. God cares for every last one of his children on this Earth. He will get what ever he desires. Jesus told us to be like children. What would a little child believe about his creator? God can save all of his children or God cannot? Let HIS WILL BE DONE! 1 Timothy 2:4, 2 Peter 3:9, Ezekiel 18:23

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  36. Willie says:

    Dear Greybeard, Adam and Eve are the classic example of “free moral agency” in action. They made a deadly choice. Deut. 30:19 reads, “I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live.” Jude 5 reads: “I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.” Are these examples, found in both the Old and the New Testaments, representative of God’s principle: obedience = life and disobedience = death, or are these words just lies and we DON’T have a choice but to be “saved”? If we were all going to be saved anyway then why did Jesus even HAVE to die? It makes no sense to me.
    Universal salvation is a slippery slope in my opinion. Do you think that Satan will be given eternal life after reading Rev. 20:10? do you think that Judas, the son of perdition, is going to be saved after reading Jesus’ words in John 17:21? What about the man of sin [representing a religious system] in II Thess. 2:3? and Paul’s words in Philippians 1:27-29? The Bible HAS to harmonize and it does. We can’t cherry pick verses in which the context (particularly the persons being spoken to) is often not taken into account [I Tim. 2:4 and II Peter 3:9 are talking of/to the consecrated–not the world of mandkind]–or else the context is misunderstood [Ezek. 18:23 shows that God IS a God of love, but it is expressing the IDEAL outcome–NOT the actuality]. We can’t ignore a multitude of “thus saith the Lord” in other places to prove a wrong premise. We are not judging–only Jehovah God can read the heart and he decides life and death issues. Universal salvation DOES judge; it judges that nobody is so incorrigible that he can’t be disuaded of his incorrigibility–thus everyone will live forever. What happened to “the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life”? You can’t have it both ways! God DIDN’T say, “The gift of God is eternal life and, oh yes, the wages of sin is also the gift of life too”!
    It is very dangerous to position oneself as MORE LOVING THAN GOD–just because it suits our flesh, our fallen human reasoning. The old man is to be put off (Rom. 6:6) and we are to “put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him” (Col 3:9,10).
    You said, “I do not want to debate this issue with you” and that’s your perogative. I certainly would debate the issue with you if I thought I could pull you out of this quick sand you have fallen into! Please bear with me while I give you one other thought which I recently learned myself. It has to do with Jesus telling the disciples that it was easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of God. I had heard the example of the Needle’s Eye Gate and how the camel had to be stripped of its load and crawl in on it’s knees in order to get through the gate. [Presumably this is difficult, but NOT impossible.] I had always thought that was a beautiful picture of how the Christian must divest himself of earthly ambitions and inordinate love of family and/or friends and material possessions, and humble himself to get into the Church of the firstborn–the Bride of Christ. This summer I read what I think is a better interpretation which I’ll quote, for I couldn’t say it better than it is written.
    “The principle [of the Needle’s Eye Gate] would be like the rich man having to sell all his properties and possessions and distribute them to the poor, and then going and following Jesus. The actual lesson is even more poignant, as clues will show.
    “For one thing, the disciples, who were more familiar with these gates than we are, ‘were exceedingly amazed’; that is, they considered it impossible for a camel to go throught the eye of a needle (see Mark 10:23-27). The Israelites had needles back there, so the disciples understood Jesus to be referring to a LITERAL needle. In his own words, ‘With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.’
    “Let us consider some helpful examples today. Life begins with a microscopic cell. The fetus grows in the woman’s womb, is born, grows, and matures to adulthood. A tiny seed planted in the ground comes out a giant melon. An acorn grows into a huge oak tree, etc. Scientists now realize that there is a genetic code in the nuclear arrangement of the cell. The genetic code is like a time clock that gives instructions to produce different things at different times, for example, an arm, a leg, or an eye with a human being, or blossoms and fruitage with a plant. This genetic code in the cell can be REVERSED. The primary example was Jesus’ reduction from the great Logos to be implanted in the Virgin Mary’s womb without a cessation of life. That was a reversal. God can manipulate the atom and give it all its instruction.
    “While we speak of the death sentence as being passed on to all men through heredity, the sentence actually takes place through the genetic code. God altered the genetic code after the disobedience of Adam. Therefore, all die, unless they can partake of the tree of life in the Garden of Eden…. With death incorporated into the genetic code, the human race is falling more and more.
    “The point is that a camel CAN be reduced to such a small size that the chromosomes can go through the eye of a needle. This is humanly impossible but divinely possible. Therefore, even a rich man, IF HE HAS A RIGHT HEART CONDITION, can be made to do the impossible by the Lord. God can reduce him to nothing–to humility and perfect submission. Then he, too, can figuratively go through the eye of a needle (enter the Kingdom of heaven), although it is easier for a camel to be made to literally do this.
    “With God, all things are possible. He can put the camel or the rich man through the eye of a needle. In fact, He could put the earth through the eye of a needle if He wanted to! That is a MECHANICAL action, whereas His dealing with the new creation is as much ABOVE His doing this to a camel as the heavens are above the earth. There really is no comparison. It is much easier for God to put a literal camel through a literal needle than to take a person who has FREE MORAL AGENCY in an evil world and instruct him to be fully obedient and submissive to Him. The latter is much more of a miracle. The account does not say that a rich man cannot enter the Kingdom of heaven but that it will be most difficult.”
    From what I have read of your posts and comments, you can relate to this, Greybeard. You have lost much and been down to your last 200 dollars and I DO believe that God answered your prayers as you related. We are associated with the TRUE God, the Creator of the universe, and He does answer prayers that are prayed in accord with His will and in His Son Jesus’ name. It seems to me that your heart is in the right place and I am going to be praying for you to get over your fascination with Universal salvation.
    May the LORD’s will be done in all of our lives and the Kingdom SOON come for the sake of the groaning creation, who pray to false gods in this evil world still under the rule of Satan. They will have the opportunity to walk up the Highway of Holiness when they are resurrected during the age of the new heavens and the new earth under the reign of Christ and the Church. Praise God from whom all blessings flow!

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  37. greybeard says:

    Dear Willie,

    Thank you for you comments. As I have always stated. I don’t know. However it does seem that you do. I also have read many of your posts to the point where I shy away from them. Forgive me for saying this, I avoid condescending speech. For example you said, “I certainly would debate the issue with you if I thought I could pull you out of this quick sand you have fallen into!” Then you said, “It seems to me that your heart is in the right place and I am going to be praying for you to get over your fascination with Universal salvation.” This type of reasoning doesn’t work with me. When I quote a verse you call it “cherry picking” but you can pick all the cherries you want LOL.

    You said, “obedience = life and disobedience = death, or are these words just lies and we DON’T have a choice but to be “saved”? If you believe that disobedience = eternal death then YES, THAT’S A LIE! What kind of reasoning is this? I can not reason with anyone who debates like this. Thus, I chose not to debate.

    You seem to think the Bible is the end of the story. The Bible is NOT the end of the story. Jesus had more to say but we were not ready for it. They couldn’t write down all the things he said. NEW books will be opened.

    When did I ever say Satan would be forgiven? Are we not talking about those who Christ died for? Man? That does not include Satan who committed the unforgivable sin. Sound like Judas did commit it but I don’t really know. Those who speak words against Christ himself can be forgiven according to Matthew 12:32.

    I do not believe in 100% universal salvation because of the unforgivable sin. However, I do not believe many will go that far. I believe the unforgivable sin is actually knowing God, receiving his Holy Spirit having the truth in your heart, then turning to work against his will like Satan did. I honestly do believe God does have the ability to turn many of these around. I do not know, I hope so. Love hopes all things.

    Yes the wages of sin is death but that is not the end of the story and you know that I hope. If God can put the entire earth through an eye of a needle then why can’t he win a simple humans heart? Each human is unique and different and God loves every one of his children. If I had a child who was wicked and worthy of death but had the ability to ERASE his memory and past to give him a fresh start, do you think I would cast him off forever? It would BE IMPOSSIBLE for me to do that! Who could if they had this kind of power? Are WE not his CHILDREN? Why do you shorten the hand of God? ALL things are possible with him. Was Jesus lying when he said that about his father? We both know what our heavenly father desires don’t we? Why do you not believe he will get what he desires? It is as simple as this, there is only one unforgivable sin, you can speak against Jesus and not commit it, it is not an EASY thing to do. Those who have received the Holy Spirit and those who have seen God can do it. I personally believe FEW do this but I could be wrong. STILL it IS possible for God to reach such ones if he so choses but according to scripture he most likely will not. He can do WHATEVER he desires. I feel YOU are in “quicksand” when you shorten his hand as most religions if not all do on this planet.

    I don’t know but I get the feeling you might be a “Bible Student” from Russell’s day. Are you? I have much respect for them. They believe Adam and Eve will be resurrected. Do you? Just wondering. I believe they will. I hope strongly that they will and I see nothing at all wrong with that.

    Living on this world is like living on the Titanic. God is not going to pick and chose who he saves on the Titanic, he is going to save ALL of them according to his will. 1 John 2:22, 1 Corinthians 15:22, 1 Timothy 2:4, 2 Peter 3:9, Ezekiel 18:23

    Peace to you Willie,
    Let Gods will be done

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  38. Willie says:

    Dear Greybeard, Yesterday you said, “Thank you Willie, That was a great post,” and today you said, “I also have read many of your posts to the point where I shy away from them.” What am I to make of that? I am truly disappointed that it is your opinion that I am condescending. I have never intended to be and I hope that not everyone who reads my posts agrees with you or else this should be my last one.
    Yes, I am opinionated. I guess it comes with old age in which case I won’t get much worse for I don’t expect to live that much longer. I would hate to be held to what I believed even ten years ago. I hope that I keep learning until the day I die. It has been my good fortune to have had a very good teacher who held Bro. Russell in high esteem, but he didn’t WORSHIP him as many of the Bible Students do.
    Being nearer to the end of my life than I have ever been before and believing as I do about the generation spoken of in the Parable of the Fig Tree gives me an urgency that is hard to suppress. Several times in my posts I have said, “In my humble opinion…,” if I was speculating, but I don’t often say, “I don’t know, for if it is something that I don’t know then I am probably not going to be writing about it. I simply don’t see that being enthusiastic and as confident as is possible in this ole world about what one believes is being condescending.
    If my style of writing doesn’t appeal to you then I hope it is helpful to somebody else; nevertheless, I will try to briefly respond to some of your points–not as a debate.
    I guess that you have gotten the idea that I am totally against Universal salvation and that I wouldn’t wish it on anyone–that includes you because it seems from your posts that you have come a long way while learning TTATT. I say this because I like you and NOT because I am condescending.
    As for “cherry picking verses”–that is one of my favorite things to do! LOL But don’t forget that you were the one that picked the three verses in the middle of my last post: I Tim. 2:4; II Peter 3:9; Eze. 18:23.
    I don’t think that any more books will be written, hence-forth, that are necessary for the salvation of the Church and the closing of the Gospel Age.
    When I say that disobedience = death, I am referring to the criteria that will be used in the Kingdom when the sheep are separated from the goats–not disobedience in the present life (which IS damaging to one’s character). All have sinned and come short of the glory of God and people are still dying, but praise the LORD, Jesus was raised from the dead and mankind will be too, with some exceptions such as Judas and probably some of the scribes and Pharisees who recognized that Jesus was the Son of God, as he claimed to be, and had him killed anyway.
    Most Universalists I have known DO believe that Satan will not die, so I’m glad that you don’t share that opinion. If I have correctly assessed what you were saying concerning the unpardonable sin, I agree with you on that too. I absolutely believe that Adam and Eve will be given a resurrection along with everyone who lived before the birth of Jesus. There are different conditions at play during the Gospel Age, but I won’t take the time to go into that issue anymore than I did above.
    I think that the most important point that I TRIED to make–but didn’t succeed–was this: “God’s four attributes are Justice, Power, Love and Wisdom. Love cannot overrule Justice and Power cannot override Wisdom–-they are all perfectly balanced.”
    Peace to you too, Greybeard.

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    • greybeard says:

      Dear Willie,

      Please forgive me for taking offense to some of your remarks. I shouldn’t have done that and I am very sorry. When people make statements in a mater of fact absolute way I consider it as condescending and maybe I shouldn’t do that. Call it a weakness I have from reading the Watchtower for over 40 years. I know I am guilty myself of doing this too.

      I am glad to hear you believe Adam and Eve will be resurrected. I thought you might be a Bible Student. I probably should not use the term Universal Salvation the way I do because I do not believe it as many do 100% across the board. I do believe God can save 100% if he wants to however there does exist a unforgivable sin. I believe he has the power to change hearts without creating robots.

      I am still finding my way through all of this Willie and I hope you and people like you stick around. You might be right, I might be in “quick sand” and need help from someone older and wiser like yourself. You are VERY welcome here and I need to watch my words. Please except my apology brother. I am very sorry.

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  39. Amos says:

    Bros. Greybeard & Willie,

    If I can add some thoughts here also. I am definitely NOT a “universalist”, BUT do believe that it will eventuate as universal salvation. Not that I believe that ALL will be saved, but that most will be saved. While we know that Jesus died as a ransom for ALL mankind, it will only be those who avail themselves of this provision that will be saved.
    Either those who are chosen & anointed during this age, as members of the church, or those who repent & accept the ransom during the millennial age.
    Regardless of how we view it, ALL those still alive after the “little season”, following the release of Satan & the testing of mankind (other than the elect), those remaining with the hope of “everlasting life”, will then make it “universal salvation” indeed.

    It MUST also be remembered that the salvation we are talking about here, is only the salvation pertaining to Adam & his family, humanity. It does not include or have any reference to any of the fallen angels or Satan himself.

    The ransom is only to be applied to humans, “as in the first Adam ALL are dying, so in the second Adam, ALL will be made alive”.

    Satan received his sentence at the time of Adam & Eve’s fall in Eden, he’s just waiting for the axe to fall.
    There is no doubt that it will be a death stroke following his final, last ditch attempt to take as many as he can from serving God.

    Satan’s fall was entirely different to that of mans, Satan was trying to set himself up to be equal to God, to be an object of worship by mankind. His was a direct act of rebellion, one that I see as perhaps having it’s beginnings before Adams creation. Whereas Adam & Eve’s was one of disobedience to God. As it was a willfull sin & they paid the price for that with their lives, “the wages of sin is death”, we all seem to agree that they will be among the ALL that will receive a resurrection.

    Your fellow brother in the Lord,
    Amos

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  40. Willie says:

    Apology accepted, Greybeard, and I also appreciate Amos for contributing to the discussion. I’m feeling better already and I thank you both!

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  41. Amos says:

    Thank’s for the thumbs-up brother. I think that there are many points that we can share that will encourage & build up each other & those who visit this site.
    We may not always agree, but neither did the first century brethren always agree with each other, but they continued together in love, as brothers of our Lord.

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