Top Ten Things Wrong with Jehovah’s Witnesses

1. Christ Jesus is not their mediator but the governing body/organization is. (Compare 1 Timothy 2:5)

2. They accept the organization as Gods sole “channel” of truth not relying on Holy Spirit themselves. (Compare John 14:16,17)

3. They believe the Watchtower contains Gods truth, directed by Holy Spirit. Without it one cannot understand the Bible. (Compare John 14:6 and 1 John 2:27)

4. They claim to be Christian but the vast majority reject Christ Blood and flesh and they do this in a ritualistic fashion every memorial of Christ death by passing the bread and wine among themselves and not eating it. Even the speaker must touch the plate or the cup and reject it for all to see. (Compare John 6:53)

5. They use the name Jehovah over Yahweh but will agree Yahweh is more accurate. (Compare Romans 10:2,3)

6. They demand 100% unity at all cost and will disfellowship members if they disagree with any doctrine. (Compare Jude 22)

7. They claim they were approved and chosen by Christ Jesus in 1918 to do Gods will. However their teachings at the time and mistakes since then prove this could not be true. (Compare Matthew 24:4,11,23-27)

8. They let their loved ones die imposing their doctrinal ban on blood transfusions based on the law covenant. However people broke the law covenant when lives were at stake. Such as saving a life of a sheep or human on the sabbath. King David broke the law to save his men. (Compare John 5:17-18, Mark 2:25-28 and Mark 7:15)

9. They have ruined thousands of peoples lives by disfellowshipping members without “saying a greeting” to them. Misapplying 2 John 10 that says not to ‘greet’ the Antichrist. This they started in 1952 in order to control their members.
(Compare 2 Thess. 3:14, 15 and 1 Thess. 5:14)

10. They are known as being false prophets for their many false predictions going back over 150 years. They predicted the end would come in 1914, 1975 and the generation alive in 1914 would not die off before the end. Of course time has ran out on their “generation” understanding so this they have changed. ( Compare Matthew 24:11 and Matthew 23:15)

If you are a Jehovah’s Witness we would like to recommend that you ask God for his Holy Spirit to guide you. Please do not close your eyes to important facts you can find freely on the internet today about Jehovah’s Witnesses. The truth has nothing to fear. Maybe you became a JW years before these facts were accessible like they are today online. The prophet Daniel was told that many would “rove about” (Daniel 12:4) looking for knowledge at the time of the end. Do you “rove about” or do you put your head in the sand when it comes to examining your own religion? We encourage you to look online and ask questions. This was written by a former Jehovah Witness. (Please read John 14:6)

(Please print this out on a colorful piece of paper and place a few at your local laundry mat. Also have a few to hand out to JW’s at your door.)

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313 Comments on Top Ten Things Wrong with Jehovah’s Witnesses

  1. rus virgil says:

    Between the “ten things true” and “ten things wrong” regarding Jehovah’s witnesses ,
    I am choosing Jehovah’s point of view
    but I cannot expand here this teme , it is more than I can do in english
    BUT , the most important thing to be taken into consideration when we are seeking to understand God’s point of view is the fact that God has written His prophecies according to what He sees when looking to the men : He is seeing the heart/her inclinations , and not the exterior

    I have found that God has expressed the most compressive(resume) prophecy regarding how He sees His people during the latter days through the mouth of the prophet …that is
    Hosea 11 :
    1 “When Israel was a child, I loved him, <> and out of Egypt I called my son.

    2 But the more I called Israel,
    >> the further they went from me.
    They sacrificed to the Baals
    and they burned incense to images.

    3 It was I who taught Ephraim to walk,
    taking them by the arms;
    but they did not realize
    it was I who healed them.

    4 I led them with cords of human kindness,
    with ties of love;
    I lifted the yoke from their neck
    and bent down to feed them.

    5 “Will they not return to Egypt
    and will not Assyria rule over them
    because they refuse to repent?

    6 Swords will flash in their cities,
    will destroy the bars of their gates
    and put an end to their plans.

    7 My people are determined to turn from me.
    Even if they call to the Most High,
    he will by no means exalt them.

    8 “How can I give you up, Ephraim?
    How can I hand you over, Israel?
    How can I treat you like Admah?
    How can I make you like Zeboiim?
    My heart is changed within me;
    all my compassion is aroused.

    9 I will not carry out my fierce anger,
    nor will I turn and devastate Ephraim.
    For I am God, and not man—
    the Holy One among you.
    I will not come in wrath.

    10 They will follow the LORD;
    he will roar like a lion.
    When he roars,
    his children will come trembling from the west.

    11 They will come trembling
    like birds from Egypt,
    like doves from Assyria.
    I will settle them in their homes,”
    declares the LORD.
    =============
    The light this prophecy (together with the Song of Moses) is giving , rightly “interpreted” on the Base which is the “teaching of Christ , is the challenge we are facing during these times ( as followers of Christ) !

    According with the above(quoted) prophecy , “God’s people” never was in “good standing” before Jehovah , and because they always (from Russel onward) were “determined to depart from Me” , Jehovah punished them by sending tribulations over them
    at the end , those (of them) who knows their God , are returning “trembling” following the Lord !
    We are living now this time when we have occasion to be in “good standing” before Jehovah by following Jesus Christ more correctly than our predecessors have done.
    see also
    http://hourglass2outpost.com/f.....php?id=231

    sorry for the heavy english exprimation .

    rus v.

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    • rus virgil says:

      Here is my attempt to explain in english the central role of the Song of Moses in understanding of the “latter days” prophecies regarding God’s people together with the “latter days’ chronology
      It is important to be observed that if Jehovah would like or require from his servants to know and understand the ancient chronology , even from the creation , than his worshipers would have been “Historians” and not “Christians” !
      The Christians who try to understand the Bible chronology should keep in mind that the aim is not -when the end of this world will be (a data)- but , the time when certain actions take place during the latter days , and specially the “day of judgement” because it is written
      Eclesiastes 8: 5….and a wise man’s heart discerneth time and judgment.
      http://reslight.net/forum/inde.....207.0.html

      in Christ,
      rus v.

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  2. Dennis says:

    Some of these very point’s are reasons why I just can’t fellowship at the Kingdom Hall anymore.

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  3. Amos says:

    I can totally agree with these points. A sometimes overlooked point is that the Bible Students also deny the fact that Jesus is also their mediator (point #1), as they say they share the mediatorial role with Jesus upon their death & resurrection. They very clearly state that Jesus is their intercessor (1Jn.2:1) & then ignore verse 2, which shows that He also intercedes for the whole world. An intercessor is actually a mediator between two parties.

    Amos

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    • Dennis says:

      Hi Brother Amos. This is also a point of disagreement I have with my Bible Student friends. It is important to note though, that some who might identify themselves as Bible Students would also disagree on these points as we do. Although, I think that most “main stream BS if there is such a thing” would believe as your comment above.

      D

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  4. Jayme says:

    I would have to say #1(Christ not mediator) is the worst in my view and spawns many of the rest. This also ties into #4(Memorial and New Covenant) and has at times given me concerns whether they are actually christian or not. I know Jehovah reads the hearts of those confused by this WT doctrine, but He also warned us to not be decieved. Another thing that troubles me is that when something is presented in the WT it isnt offered as a possible explanation, its THE explanation. From that point on you have to believe it and teach it regardless of conscience, scripture or logic.

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    • Amos says:

      Agreed Br. Jayme, by denying the “ransom for all,” I believe this does bring into question whether the WTS are christian or not, as this is actually denying the reason why HE came to earth, to recover what Adam lost.
      #4) Was always a question for me also. I could never see the logic (scripturally) for those who were part of the “christian congregation” not being permitted to partake of the emblems.

      Amos

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  5. andrew says:

    There are more than a few similarities between the JWs and the pharisees. Both have a high regard for being seperate from everybody else, for paying attention to details to be thought of as righteous (maybe that is why even we don’t even say “good luck” or “bless you” when someone sneezes or we forbid mother’s day etc.)

    All of this thinking has made the JWs just like the pharisees to place less importance on the most weightiest matters of christianity such as mercy, charity, lack of a judgmental attitude, and humility.

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  6. greybeard says:

    I agree with you Andrew, brings to mind Matthew 23:13 “Woe to YOU, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because YOU shut up the kingdom of the heavens before men; for YOU yourselves do not go in, neither do YOU permit those on their way in to go in. 14 ——

    15 “Woe to YOU, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because YOU traverse sea and dry land to make one proselyte, and when he becomes one YOU make him a subject for Ge·hen´na twice as much so as yourselves.”

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  7. Amos says:

    Excellent points Br. Andrew.

    Amos

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  8. lurk says:

    Hi, I have never studied the part where the org is mankind’s mediator. Where do you get this facts?
    Isn’t that a bit too much, when clearly throughout the Bible, there is the constant, do not trust anyone but God, God is the only one that will get you out of trouble type message.

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    • greybeard says:

      Really? Most JW’s do not believe they have the heavenly call. They do not believe they are apart of the 144,000. They are not the bride of Christ. They believe Christ is the mediator for only those in the new covenant/144,000. They themselves have a relationship with the 144,000/anointed christians and they look to them as their mediator/leader not Christ. They will say they look to
      Christ but in reality they do not.

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      • lurk says:

        I know they talk about the 144k having only the heavenly call.
        But when you say mediator for them only, are you saying Jesus died only for them?. Like I said, I have not touch this subject. I don’t hear this in the meetings.
        Would like to know more. Can you guys email with your email, I have more questions.
        lurk @ gmx . com
        Thanks

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    • Jayme says:

      W79 4/1 p.31

      Questions From Readers
      ● Is Jesus the “mediator” only for anointed Christians?

      The term “mediator” occurs just six times in the Christian Greek Scriptures and Scripturally is always used regarding a formal covenant.
      Moses was the “mediator” of the Law covenant made between God and the nation of Israel. (Gal. 3:19, 20) Christ, though, is the “mediator of a new covenant” between Jehovah and spiritual Israel, the “Israel of God” that will serve as kings and priests in heaven with Jesus. (Heb. 8:6; 9:15; 12:24; Gal. 6:16) At a time when God was selecting those to be taken into that new covenant, the apostle Paul wrote that Christ was the “one mediator between God and men.” (1 Tim. 2:5) Reasonably Paul was here using the word “mediator” in the same way he did the other five times, which occurred before the writing of 1 Timothy 2:5, referring to those then being taken into the new covenant for which Christ is “mediator.” So in this strict Biblical sense Jesus is the “mediator” only for anointed Christians.
      The new covenant will terminate with the glorification of the remnant who are today in that covenant mediated by Christ. The “great crowd” of “other sheep” that is forming today is not in that new covenant. However, by their associating with the “little flock” of those yet in that covenant they come under benefits that flow from that new covenant. During the millennium Jesus Christ will be their king, high priest and judge.

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      • greybeard says:

        Thank you Jayme, did that explain it or you Lurk? Notice it said, “So in this strict Biblical sense Jesus is the “mediator” only for anointed Christians.”

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  9. Charles says:

    In reference to #9:
    My Mom was df’d, and the result was that she was not invited to her own son’s wedding at the ‘hall’.

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  10. aparadekto says:

    Hey, I can’t view your site properly within Opera, I actually hope you look into fixing this.

      (Quote)

    • JJ says:

      Brother

      I tried to contact you via email to address the problem but it came back undeliverable. First try updating Opera to the latest version. If that doesnt work you may have to consider using IE or Firefox, both of which display the site properly.

      JJ

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  11. Victor Fajardo says:

    If I may chime in here: Christ’s role as mediator is between God and imperfect Mankind, and primarily during the millennium. The Church is covered under the blood of Christ, and is reckoned as pure by means of that blood. Which is why the Apostle John says that those who partake HAVE eternal life, present tense, no future (Jhn 6:54). The world of imperfect mankind still requires a mediator.

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    • Amos says:

      My understanding is that until the Parousia, the 1st resurrection & changing of the living saints, that Christ is the Mediator for the church alone during this, the Gospel Age.

      He will then be Mediator of sinfull mankind (those who are not the saints) during the Millennial age, until they reach perfection, & when He hands all back to the Father.

      Victor, in support of your use of Jn 6:54, I will also quote Eph.2:1-10, as follows;
      “And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,
      2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.
      3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.
      4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
      5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
      6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
      8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
      9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
      10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.” NASB
      It will be noticed, that Bro Paul uses past & present tense when refering to our condition once anointed by Holy Spirit; “were dead”, ” made us alive together with Christ”, “and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus”, “For by grace you have been saved through faith”.

      I believe that we are NOW, once anointed, sitting in heaven (spiritually speaking) awaiting the time of our LOrd’s return, when it will become a reality.

      Amos

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  12. Eric Ramos says:

    These thoughts are all very reasonable. I would also like to point out the vast and extensive-No Fun Rules. They are so prevalent many are unspoken rules. And if you were raised in the truth you know what I am talking about.

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  13. Berto says:

    If they deny that Jesus is your mediator then
    How is it possible that they could be members
    If the 144000?
    Wouldnt that be another to add to the top ten list?

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  14. Fallingwaters says:

    Well I am not a JW yet but I have a husband who has been with them since 2004 and frankly I go, study, read, and pray there is a lot of truth in their organization, they have unity, teach the same thing world wide and I maintain my beliefs to my self. If I am wrong oh well. Yehovah, Yahweh, Yeshuwah, He understands my faith and I choose to serve God in what ever He shows me and I don’t believe everything they teach but they at not led by Satan. I would rather follow this than most Christain beliefs since Yeshua was not born Dec. 25th he was concived than and born in Sept. Oct. I partake of communion on Passover regardless of their beliefs. There is a lot of Paganism in Christianity today. I am led by the Holy Spirit in my faith and don’t let it interfer with my faith in Yeshua as my mediator to God. You must work out your own salvation with fear and trembling if this is what you must do.

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    • Rupunzelsawake says:

      The “unity” so often touted as evidence of God’s backing is only maintained through silence and fear. If anyone dare speak against, or contrary to the WT, they meet with phobic reaction (apostate!!!) that ensures their future silence, or they risk being cut off from their JW friends and family, which may be the only people they kmow! Mmmmm…what kind of unity is that? It’s conformity!(or else!)

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    • narrowpath says:

      it is my understanding that the husband is to be the spiritual leader in the house. This being said there will come a time when the WT will say that you must be one of them or your husband will disfellowship you.they do not allow an unequally yoked marriage for long.I will pray for you and your husband that he will have his eyes opened to the truth and the truth will set him free.

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  15. eve says:

    I was born raised catholic. My second husband was jevoha witness when we met. I said straight up I am catholic. He never pushed it on me. 19 yrs later 5 children and belong to a great church. The mission church. A christian church where we’re very happy. He said he followed someone to JW religion and regrets all he missed in life. Too many restrictions and lots of unhappy members are his words !

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    • JJ says:

      Thank you Eve for your perspective. I’m glad you and he were able to make it work despite the religious differences. Is your husband still an active JW? It sounds like he may have awakened to the problems and faded out…

      Please share more if you can!

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    • JoAnn says:

      That’s not true

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  16. Blinky says:

    In Revelation, we are told the 144,000 are male jewish virgins. I’ll bet that leaves the JW’s out of the equation. BTW, the 144,000 is not referring to how many people go to heaven.

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  17. trinity says:

    The one thing Jehovas Witnesses can never answer and it never fails to prove them wrong is this. If Jesus is Michael the Archangel then how is it that in Revelation Jesus can be “The alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end” While in Genesis Jehova God says “I am the Alpha and the Omega, The begining and the End”? Can’t there be only ONE Alpha and Omega? Food for thought.

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  18. Chris says:

    You are referring to Rev.1:8
    This scripture refers to Jehovah, not Jesus, and is an example of the haphazard and mischievous way some translators chop and change their use of the terms LORD and GOD.
    Rev.1:1 indicates that the revelation was given to Jesus by God. So I ask you, how could Jesus be given something from himself?
    Rev.1:1,2 indicates that John bore witness to the word that God gave and to the witness Jesus Christ gave.
    Rev.1:8 Reaffirms Jehovah as the originator of the Revelation through Jesus Christ to John
    No confusion anywhere in these texts.
    The only confusion arises if we try and combine God and Christ into one being, and use their unity of spirit & purpose to invent a unity of being & existence.

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  19. danielB says:

    Excellent explanation Chris !

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  20. Kelly says:

    I believe that the organisation of Jehovah’s Witnesses is so wrong. I have been brought up as a jw my whole life untill I was seventeen and unwilling got baptised when I was 13 not knowing a thing about the religion. Then when I turned seventeen I left home because I wasn’t even allowed to leave the house without being accused of doing drugs and i got locked in at night and during the day. It was so wrong. Then I got disfellowshiped for leaving home and now i’m not allowed to speek to my mother and everytime I see a jw on the street I get ignored. This is really depressing. I hate it so much. It has ruined my life. I don’t believe in this religion at all.

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    • JJ says:

      Kelly it is sad that this has happened to you and of course it is very unfair. Many of us here are available to talk and encourage you anytime that you need it. You are in my prayers sis!

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  21. jessey says:

    you know,,,ihave grown up in the jw’s but i think all i have grabbed with them is dat Jehovah is God and Jesus is son and i take in the gud things of it and I try to imitate God’s love and live full life keeping away from satan and bad stuff,,,follows my mind when I pray to God using all the nice things about what I learned off JW’s…It’s so confusing when one says yes one says no in all these religions but try and believe God as Jehovah and Jesus his son,,pray to them and live life…we will die somehow but do good and all the good God like of us and Jesus when he die for us…its muddles but do all the good things and pray then go to sleep without confusion and believe in yourself,,,God is with us no matter where,what and wha wha..

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  22. jessey says:

    its alright all the religions we go to but we just have to remember that JW’s dont mix their religion with the world things and dats what make them different but if you love God the way you want,,then do that,,,if you get baptised in the JW’s dats fine but if you go out ,,,find a way to make yourself happy,,,pray to God to forgive you and move on…He’s with everyone and we should also fear him for the goodness of our paths cos fearing him no matter what church u go to,,dats lifting him and u believing in a higher powerful God,,,so whereever you are in a religion,,,remember to fear God then all you dois good..We know dat…No one has powers than him..

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  23. MAD says:

    John 14:6 says “Jesus is the way, the truth and the life no one comes to the Father except through HIM”.

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  24. Eric says:

    Mad that was what needed to be said right from the start:) who can contest with that….it just puts an end to this whole convo…it should anyway

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  25. Patrick says:

    They didnt predict dat d end would cm in 1914,but gav an important description on d situation of tinz regarding bible prophesies of wat d messiah said nd wat john saw in his vision. Remember dat” act 17:2,3″ implies dat we also reason 4rm d scritures so dat we understand it. Now Dey ar cal jw bcos jesus christ said 2 his followers de thingz i say 2 u ar not of my own but of d father who sent me, dis is bcos jesus christ also came 2 make known 2 mankind ,his creator(jehova), who he said is d father even in d prayer he described as hw to pray”he use our father wu is in heaven” clearly wu is d father dat is being refered 2 in text? It is jehova whom he cam 2 make us witnes of. Indeed jesus is d truth, d way yes it bcos he brought d word of truth from d father who sent him which also boost u 4 long live. Of which lies in wat he commissioned his followers b4 departing 2 heaven, remember jesus said in d scriptures dat no man is good not even him but d father(jehova) only.

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  26. Patrick says:

    Remember satan d devil is refered 2 as d god of d god of system of tinz , but he has a name which is” lucifer” ,den is it not neccessary dat u no d name of d god u serve whom is d “supreme being” jesus christ cam 2 make known 2 u nd i. Remember jesus christ made it known dat he not greater dan d father dat sent him.den wat is God’s name, his name is “jehova”,remember it is in d book of “psalm 91:14″ ,” bcoz he hat known my name nd set his love upon me,i wil deliver him nd set him on high. Therefore it is neccessary u no God’s name.

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  27. Patrick says:

    It is true dat jesus sayz i am d way d truth nd d life nd no one comes 2 de father except via me, does not mean dat u should consider christ as God,wat dat scripture meant was dat it was only through christ we can approach God in prayer,if u tink christ is God it means that d High priest in ancient israel was God,cos it was by means of d high priest ONLY dat d israelites could communicate wif God.Now in d scripture christ performs a similar,but greater function dan dat of d high priest in ancient israel,dats y he is calld d High priest,nd just like d high priest dat does nt make him God

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  28. Rupunzelsawake says:

    Hi Patrick. You are quite wrong in saying they didn’t predict an end in 1914, as the following WT quotes show:

    “Now, in view of recent labor troubles and threatened anarchy, our readers are writing to know if there may not be a mistake in the 1914 date. They do not see how present conditions can hold out so long under the strain. We see no reason for changing the figures – nor could we change them if we would. They are, we believe, God’s dates, not ours. But bear in mind that the end of 1914 is not the date for the beginning, but for the end of the time of trouble.” Zion’s Watch Tower 1894 Jul 15 p.226

    “… the battle of the great day of God Almighty … The date of the close of that “battle” is definitely marked in Scripture as October 1914. It is already in progress, its beginning dating from October, 1874.” Zion’s Watch Tower 1892 Jan 15 p.23

    “The seventh trumpet sounds from Aug. 1840, until “the time of trouble,” or day of wrath is ended. Hence, it doubtless ends with the times of the Gentiles, and this forty years of conquest; and therefore, sounds until A. D. 1914; at the end of which, Babylon the great, will have fallen, and the “dragon” be bound: that is, the nations will be subdued, and “the prince of this world cast out.”” Three Worlds and the Harvest of This World (Barbour & Russell, 1877) p.27

    See jwfacts for more quotes.

    As late as 1930, the Watchtower was still referring to 1874 as the start of Jesus presence.

    “… from the beginning of the Lord’s presence in 1874 the Devil used the Papal system as the chief opposing instrument of God’s kingdom …” Watchtower 1930 p.275

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  29. Patrick says:

    Yes indeed the jw’s have made errors in some of their prophecies,because they did not fully understand what will happen at the end,but after reviewing dose scriptures they succesfully calculated the time at which the last days will begin,i.e 1914 and not the end of the world,moreover i have also calculated it myself and hav seen that the Jw’s Were correct

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    • BrotherMcBanal says:

      Using Patrick’s logic, we should forgive all the churches who make gross mistakes and mislead and steal time away from their sheep. Pastors are not Cowboy’s like the Boys of Brooklyn New York claim to be. I lived in Cattle Country for a few Summers, one thing I noticed about Cowboys is they push and whip the cows and drive them until they are exhausted. The “Boys of Brooklyn” are Spiritual Cowboys, they are not Shepherds of Sheep!

      I knew some Basque shepherds who lead the sheep with a kind pace and kept a eye out for straggling sheep. The sheep were not driven into exhaustion or allowed to almost die, no, the Shepherds were sensitive to the flock’s needs. You keep on allowing those Cowboys of Brooklyn to push you harder and harder, Raw Hide Buck o! We will keep our fine Shepherd Jesus Christ who does not burden and bind us down with a yoke he is not willing to carry himself. My family at Bethel rarely saw those Cowboys doing the door-to-door work, why do you think that is the case? How come the preaching is so important for the Cows but not the Cowboys who keep pushing that herd to the point of Sun stoke and near death cattle drives?

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  30. Rupunzelsawake says:

    I would suggest they have made errors in all of their prophecies. In their own words they fit the description of a “false messenger”. We need to be on guard against such ones given Jesus’ warning at Mat 24:23-26, Luke 17:20-23. (Also Paul’s warning at 2 Thes 2:1-5).See the following quotes that were published in the May 1, 1997 Watchtower:

    “JEHOVAH GOD is the Grand Identifier of his true messengers. He identifies them by making the messages he delivers through them come true. Jehovah is also the Great Exposer of false messengers. How does he expose them? He frustrates their signs and predictions. In this way he shows that they are self-appointed prognosticators, whose messages really spring from their own false reasoning—yes, their foolish, fleshly thinking!”

    The “signs and predictions” of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society have certainly been “frustrated”, resulting in much hardship for the flock. Would Christ really lead in this fashion? Would he really allow the abuse of his sheep? I think not.

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  31. Patrick says:

    Rapunzel yes the Jw’s have made errors in their prophecy on some issues,because as i said earlier,they also had wrong expectations just like the apostles check luke 19:11 and acts 1:6…..however note that the Jw’s believed that SOMETHING will happen in 1914…so as to speak 1914 was not the date for the end of the world,but the year of passage into the last days

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    • Rupunzelsawake says:

      You may like to do further research into this brother. Are you aware that Brother Russell used measurements inside the pyramid of Gezeh to validate his chronology? See WT June 15 1922 pg 187. Further, you might like to check out the post on this site: “A Problem With 1914?”. There have been errors in calculating the years, plus no sources outside the WT corroborate a 607 BCE destruction of Jerusalem. (Rather the evidence points to 586/7 BCE) Do you not think Satan capable of making SOMETHING happen in 1914, to “mislead if possible even the chosen ones”? (Mt 24:24)

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  32. Patrick says:

    Moreover the doctrine of the trinity is a farce

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    • BrotherMcBanal says:

      Patrick, your as bad as the people you despise. The born-againer’s we called them who jump and dodged topics once we had them cornered. Should the Churches of Christendom receive the same allowance of errors and false prophecies the JWs are guilty of? I can tell you what drove my heart but not my body from the Kingdom Hall. It was the lack of love, Paul said we could have all the “gifts of the spirit” but without “love we are nothing!”.

      If a church in Christendom knows how to love in the same manner as Jesus Christ taught his followers, will he not much rather save those who practice love instead of claiming they are right on dates and doctrines? Try reading 1 Thess 4:1-end) to get your answer to this question. Paul said we don’t need to focus on dates or doctrine, just learning how to show love. Attacking people with mock-doctrine and claiming your right and becoming emotional and jumping topics is not working for you kid!

      You can move to topics like Hell-Fire or the Trinity, those are not what Jesus told us to focus on, he said we need to love and that quality is quite dead in most congregations!

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  33. Patrick says:

    Rupunzel , if we say light has nothin 2 do with darknes, and u hv reasoned 4rm d scriptures nd seen in ur conscience wat is true den y do u say dat d jw’s are false.

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    • Rupunzelsawake says:

      Early on in my years as one of Jehovah’s Witnesses, we were trained to use this illustration in the door to door ministry when talking to members of Christendom: “If you were given a glass of water to which one drop of poison had been added, would you drink it? Would you reason that it is only ONE DROP, and it wouldn’t harm you? NO, of course you would reject the whole glass of water!” Well, we could apply the same illustration to the erroneous teachings, abuses, and false prophecies/predictions of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, couldn’t we?

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  34. Rupunzelsawake says:

    Patrick, there are a number of religious groups that do not believe in the trinity. The Living Church of God (the Worldwide Church of God) have very similar teachings to JWs. I think you would be very surprised! Also, the International Bible Students Association, from which JWs broke away, is still alive and kicking! They have an official website where you can read all of Russells writings, along with comprehensive Bible study tools. Yes, JWs have had numerous “wrong expectations”. Looking at the older publications would truly horrify you. This must make you question whether they really are SPIRIT DIRECTED, and approved as the channel from 1918. (Or do they give evidence of being “human directed”?) They say “the light gets brighter”, but what explains the “flip-flopping” or reversals of doctrine? It’s like switching the light on, off, on ,off, on, etc. For example, they keep changing their mind over whether those of Sodom and Gomorrah will be resurrected or not. This has huge implications. If Jehovah could permanently destroy the sinful but IGNORANT inhabitants of those cities,(and remember they had NO warning preached to them),then surely he could permanently destroy billions of IGNORANT individuals at Armageddon. Does that seem JUST to you? Or do you really believe that in the short time that you believe we have left, JWs will preach adequately to every single human being on the planet? The CO quoted Mt 10:23 at last night’s meeting to suggest that this would not be the case.

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  35. Patrick says:

    Rupunzel remember hw d apostates ar described in d scriptures, de do accordin 2 deir own desire nt as d wil of d heaven father but 2 deir own i do advise u 2 go bk .do nt b lk d pharases whom jesus describe as dose who cannot see d sign of d time. 2 b sincere i am very shock 2 no dat u were once a jw nd u broke out . Remember jehovas children ar known by love nt seperation.

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  36. Patrick says:

    See rupunzel dere x one god, dere4 one thought of worship nd understand of him. Nd of course u would nt drink of such water if a drop of poisin falls in but in dis case u fail 2 understand d meanin of jehova’s witnesses or 2 say witnesses 2 d father via d son of god. Did u nt notice dat in 1914 d events dat occured led 2 d passage of d nxt prophesies as in d scribtures ,event presently happenin in our tym , i feel great doudt in u rupunzel. even jesus knew many wil b very ignorant, dat x while it is stated broad nd precious is d way 2 destruction nd many find it (due 2 lustfulnes of d flesh),but tiny nd crampy x d way 2 evelastin life only few see it( dose who have denied deir own desires which knows no law). So rupunzel d jw teach 2 bring 2gether which is d instruction due 2 love, reason it. Even 4rm d name of jw’z dat broke out it means anti-jw’s which x nt supposed 2 b so bcos jesus sayz wu ever is 4 us is 4 us.

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  37. Patrick says:

    B sure 2 reason wel 4rm d scriptures nd hw apostates sprang out , ok ,unlik d other christendom churches hv origin of tearin out of a previously existing standard except dat of d jw’z , nw u say u ar an organisation dat broke out of d main jw’z–> bcoz u stil carry some doudt’s of deir believe. Nw analyze carefuly wu d apostates ar . Remember apostates arise due to doudt which leads 2 faithlessnes even wen de hv d thought or feelin of havin faith. Nw usin bible scriptures, reason which sprank out of d other. remember if satan fight against d other of d same lk deir kingdom wil not stand. Ok remember if ur goal is to struggle to combat illusion in d jw’s organisation nd wat de teach ar u following wat jesus commissioned his faithfull desiples 2 do, instead of preachin of d good newz of d kingdom nd tinz d desiple observed wit him( jesus), 2 whom he says he came 4, rather u put more concerntration against. , whom do u see as d head of d church ?is it urselves or jesus d messiahnic king.

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    • 7858fb1e@opayq.com says:

      Patrick,
      If you don’t formulate proper sentences, how can anyone take what you say seriously?
      It’s like looking at alphabet soup:)

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      • BrotherMcBanal says:

        Either English is not his first language or he is using some type of Texting Code to remain hidden for being on a JW Apostate Site. He is as guilty as I am, hard for him to accept the fact he is now drinking at the table of men who are not followers of the Cowboys of Brooklyn. Patrick needs to learn who Jesus Christ is and ask himself, why do all the magazines and literature make it their goal to reduce the name of our Savior Jesus Christ by 70%? The new KMs have barely any mention of Jesus Christ, the focus is on the Organization instead of Jesus Christ. The Organization is the Mediator according to Fred Franz’s illogical argument, Jesus is not the “Mediator for every Tom, Dick and Harry” Fred Franz WT President.

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      • folkgirl65 says:

        No offence, Patrick, at least not regarding your grammar lol, but use Spellcheck or something! If you are a diehard JW, you should have better spelling than that, no? You can’t begin to be taken seriously, if no one can understand you!

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        • danielB says:

          I would add , Patrick , that it’s simply a matter of considering how the reader or listener is going to understand what you said . Always do at least a read-over after you keyboard in . Cut & paste some , check punctuation & spelling .

          Often when we proofread , we’ll see there was something missing that would be good to add , or even strike out . It’s just a matter of consideration and making a clear point . I just did that . I found a few errors & fixed them . I made this a paragraph of it’s own .

          Best wishes / keep the right faith brother / and ” arouse our clear thinking ” . – 2Peter 3:1 (NWT) . . . bro dan

          . . . In Christ

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    • Rupunzelsawake says:

      Jesus is the head of the congregation, not a body of men. I take direction from Jesus. I have to ask, just what is the message that JWs deliver? Is it really “good news”? The news they preach is a basis for judgment. “If you don’t come to Jehovah’s organisation you will die at Armageddon”. That is NOT the good news of the Kingdom by any means. It is a flawed message. I actually visit a number of people and have Bible discussions with them. You don’t have to belong to an “organisation” to do this. And you don’t have to report “hours” or sell magazines!

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  38. Rupunzelsawake says:

    Patrick, have you listened to the recording of my Judicial committee meeting? How would you answer the issues I raised with the elders? Even they could see I made sense. What I am concerned with is JUSTICE. That is one of Jehovah Gods’s cardinal attributes. “All his ways are justice”(Deut 32:4) “God is not partial”(Acts 10:34)”You must not be partial in judgment” (Deut 1:17). The current understanding of Armageddon that JWs teach, which is what I cannot teach, suggests that our loving heavenly Father is unjust and partial. Why do JWs teach two Judgment Days? The Bible says God has “set a day” in which he purposes to judge the inhabited earth. It is called “the Last Day”, also the “1000 year reign”. Yet JWs have decided to judge people already. They used to say the sheep and goats were separated starting in 1914. When goats died prior to Armageddon, there was no resurrection for them. They have moved this separating to Armageddon now, but they still hold that the “wheat and the weeds” are separated from 1914 onwards. They are “bundled for the fiery furnace” from that time on. That means that members of Christendom who die from 1914 onwards can expect no resurection. That is judgment,is it not? I find this unjust. Our organisation has taken it upon itself to judge people when they cannot read hearts, and “before the due time”. The Kingdom is not reigning yet! Our organisation, namely it’s Governing Body prematurely act as judges and Kings, something that Paul accused men of in the Corinthian congregation in 1 Cor 4:3-8. These men could rightly be called apostates. Further to that our Governing Body applies restoration prophecies to themselves NOW, when clearly their fulfillment is DURING the 1000 year reign of the Kingdom. After last year’s “new light” they now admit they have NOT been given authority over “all the Master’s belongings”, nor have they been pronounced happy and received the reward of positions in the Kingdom. Yet they act as if they already have, and at the same time, condemn all others. I cannot possibly accept that. It is my love for JUSTICE and my love for people that will not allow me to view all other people on the planet as unworthy of life. I have seen the hypocrisy in our organisation. I have seen the false teachings, (or “wrong expectations”, if you prefer to call it that). WE ARE NOT BETTER THAN OTHER PEOPLE!! If our organisation measured itself the way it measured other organisations, how would it fare? It would become apparent that it is just another member of Babylon the Great!

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  39. Rupunzelsawake says:

    By the way Patrick, I was a very dedicated and loyal Witness of Jehovah for 22 years. I diligently studied all my WT literature, attended meetings with my children, and conducted many Bible studies over the years. I was considered exemplary, as was my daughter. It was my vigilant study of prophecy over the last couple of years that lead me to conclude there were serious problems and errors in the organisation. I would never have dreamed of visiting sites like this. I was loyal and obedient, which makes me wonder why you are here. I am glad you are though. Coming to this site has opened my eyes to the emotional abuse of the organisation. I felt emotionally abused for years as I had to suppress my conscience, as I was taught to believe that all “worldly” (ie. non-JWs) were unfit to live. Many here suffer tremendoulsy as they watch their families disintegrate Would Jesus leadership really cause such suffering? I think you need to open your eyes, have some compassion. Start to view people the way Christ and our loving heavenly Father does.

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    • folkgirl65 says:

      You have your committee meeting recorded?! I wish that phone technology had been like that for me, seven years ago!! I would have totally done that and shown people what really happens…I’d love to hear it, can you forward me the link or post it? Thanks :)

      <a onclick="javascript:pageTracker._trackPageview('/mailto/7858fb1e@opayq.com');" href="mailto:7858fb1e@opayq.com">7858fb1e@opayq.com</a>:
      Patrick,
      If you don’t formulate proper sentences, how can anyone take what you say seriously?
      It’s like looking at alphabet soup:)

      Rupunzelsawake:
      Patrick, there are a number of religious groups that do not believe in the trinity. The Living Church of God (the Worldwide Church of God) have very similar teachings to JWs. I think you would be very surprised! Also, the International Bible Students Association, from which JWs broke away, is still alive and kicking! They have an official website where you can read all of Russells writings, along with comprehensive Bible study tools. Yes, JWs have had numerous “wrong expectations”. Looking at the older publications would truly horrify you. This must make you question whether they really are SPIRIT DIRECTED, and approved as the channel from 1918. (Or do they give evidence of being “human directed”?) They say “the light gets brighter”, but what explains the “flip-flopping” or reversals of doctrine? It’s like switching the light on, off, on ,off, on, etc. For example, they keep changing their mind over whether those of Sodom and Gomorrah will be resurrected or not. This has huge implications. If Jehovah could permanently destroy the sinful but IGNORANT inhabitants of those cities,(and remember they had NO warning preached to them),then surely he could permanently destroy billions of IGNORANT individuals at Armageddon. Does that seem JUST to you? Or do you really believe that in the short time that you believe we have left, JWs will preach adequately to every single human being on the planet? The CO quoted Mt 10:23 at last night’s meeting to suggest that this would not be the case.

        (Quote)

      • rupunzelsawake says:

        Hi folkgirl65! Don’t know how I missed your comment last month. Here’s the link to my recording on jwstruggle youtube channel. It was recorded with a recording device in my boot!! It worked quite well but the sound quality isn’t that brilliant in places. During my JC meeting I tried to address things that listening JWs might be able to relate to, having observed these things themselves.

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  40. BrotherMcBanal says:

    Who gave them authority to caste the first stone? What a contrast between true Christians and creature worshiping men blindly obeying the religious leaders of our day!

    “4“Teacher,” they said to Jesus, “this woman was caught in the act of adultery. 5The law of Moses says to stone her. What do you say?”

    6They were trying to trap him into saying something they could use against him, but Jesus stooped down and wrote in the dust with his finger. 7They kept demanding an answer, so he stood up again and said, “All right, but let the one who has never sinned throw the first stone!” 8Then he stooped down again and wrote in the dust.

    9When the accusers heard this, they slipped away one by one, beginning with the oldest, until only Jesus was left in the middle of the crowd with the woman. 10Then Jesus stood up again and said to the woman, “Where are your accusers? Didn’t even one of them condemn you?”11“No, Lord,” she said.

    And Jesus said, “Neither do I. Go and sin no more.”

    (John 8:4-11)

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  41. Patrick says:

    Caused are those slaves who turn their backs and beat the others, and saying the master is delaying. For u are witnesses to your own very words. It would interest u 2 know that jesus did not come to cause division in his organisation, rather it is evidently writen they are of one mind. That is all. After al in the early christian organisation which group of persons lead by means of holyspirit ? Giving them the daily spiritual food !

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  42. Rupunzelsawake says:

    Time and again the WT has delayed the Master’s coming. Up until the 1930s it was taught that Jesus returned in 1874. “Bible prophecy shows that the Lord was due to appear for the second time in the year 1874. Fulfilled prophecy shows beyond a doubt that he did appear in 1874. Fulfilled prophecy is otherwise designated the physical facts; and these facts are indisputable.” Watchtower 1922 Nov 1 p.333. 1874 was not dropped as the start of the second coming until the 1930’s, when articles such as the following started to be released:
    “The prophecy of the Bible, fully supported by the physical facts in fulfilment thereof, shows that the second coming of Christ dates from the fall of the year 1914.” What is Truth? (1932) p.48
    1874 was not removed entirely from Watchtower doctrine until 1943, when a change in how the 6000 years were calculated meant it could no longer be used as the end of the 6000 years. (see God’s Kingdom on a Thousand Years Has Approached p.209)

    1914 has been a pivotal date for the Watchtower. The expectations prior to 1914 included it being the end of the Gentile Times, the end of Armageddon, the fall of false religion, the end of all governments, the resurrection, the start of Jesus 1000 year reign and paradise on earth.

    So who exactly has been delaying the Master’s arrival? The WT “faithful and discreet slave”. They continue to “beat” any who point this out to fellow members of the household.

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  43. Chris says:

    Exactly Rupunzel.
    They are becoming increasingly irritated at the Masters apparent delay and are really starting to manifest their indignation that he has not arrived when THEY said he would. Let the beating commence!
    My wife and kids are off to the convention next week so I am waiting for her reaction to the Human Apostate talk. Hopefully all the subtle warnings I have given her will cause the penny to drop.

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  44. Rupunzelsawake says:

    Let’s not forget the recent delay in the Master’s arrival.FDS: “Um…we were expecting him to return to his household to appoint us over all his belongings in 1918, and we really thought he had, invisibly…..but …um…we now know not to expect him until the great tribulation. Sorry about the delay folks…but we had “new light”!”

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  45. Rupunzelsawake says:

    No apologies to those who had held this “new light” view all along and were disfellowshipped for it. Mmmmm…I would call that “beating their fellow slaves” wouldn’t you? A 1986 Questions from Readers, said that to be approved association for JWs, one had to believe that the “faithful and discreet slave” of JWs had been appointed over all the Master’s belongings in 1918.

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  46. Patrick says:

    Repunzel if u analyze dat statement very wel which says ‘(cause are they slaves who turn their back on their fellow nd beat them )’u notice that even the other slaves who didn’t turn their back on their fellowz also had wrong expectationz but remained faithful to their master regardles of their masters arrival . I hope u understand. But u see those wrong expectationz have been rectified.

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  47. Rupunzelsawake says:

    Hi again Patrick! You say they rectified their wrong expectations, but how do you know that these new understandings are correct? They undoubtedly will have to change them again. The problem with dictating and enforcing the acceptance of false expectations, which is what the FDS have done, is that it damages the “sheep”. They are bruised and knocked about. They fall into a ditch. Ones, who for the sake of their conscience, cannot accept are pushed off the cliff and die. A good shepherd cares for his sheep and protects them from dangers. If one is missing he searches for it. Our GB shepherds have been the cause of untold harm to the flock resulting even in death. I don’t think the Great Shepherd will be very pleased at all. If the GB are really spirit directed, then why would they be making all these mistakes? Deut 18:20-22, “the prophet who presumes to speak in my name a word that I have not commanded him to speak or who speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet must die. And in case you should say in your heart: ‘How shall we know the word that Jehovah has spoken?’ when the prophet speaks in the name of Jehovah and the word does not occur or come true, that is the word that Jehovah did not speak. With presumptuousness the prophet spoke it. You must not get frightened at him.”

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  48. Chris says:

    There are many viewpoints on the wise & the foolish virgins in Jesus illustration, but regardless of our opinion of who’s who, the foolish virgins had access to a supply of oil, but lit their lamps too soon, and so were not ready when Jesus returned.
    For my part I believe the WTS has had some oil but has used it up. They now find themselves unwittingly aligning their views to those of other Christian groups (and the Bible) without admitting they have run out of ideas and are just making up everything else as they go along. Somewhat like an politician who pads out a speech that is weak on content but high on supposition.
    So much for their pompous claim to be “God’s Sole Channel of Communication”

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  49. Patrick says:

    Rupunzel , the apostles asked jesus when wil the kingdom come? U of course know his reply.then it is when jehova wills, then action takes place. Then like an army man who puts on the armor of god(truth) must know endurance in this times of the last days which u know and is very evident around u . Jesus u know was sent from god therefore there is bound to be one taught.as u know of one mind. Brother it doesnt take anything b4 u become an apostate. Even your actions torn down rather than build up. Understand.

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    • JJ says:

      Patrick it is a little hard to understand exactly what you mean, but I think you are calling Rupunzel an apostate, is that so? If you really feel that is the case, then what do you base your judgment of her on?

      You said “Jesus was sent by God” and I am sure that most of us here would agree with that. There was proof in the NT that he was. But there is not one scrap of proof that the Watchtower and the men of the governing body are sent by God like Jesus was. They cannot heal, they cannot read hearts or minds nor can they predict the future. In fact, every one of the WT publication date predictions have turned out to be false predictions, going all the way back to the 1800s.

      The fruitage of the JW religion has yielded just as many divorces, broken homes, suicides, abusive households, etc. as other Christian groups, if not more. A pew research study from only a couple years ago found several other religious denominations that had a lower incident of divorce. And another study found that 2 out of 3 of the young people that are raised up as JWs eventually leave at some point in their life.

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    • Rupunzelsawake says:

      You seem to make assumptions about what I believe. I believe that we are living in the time of inspection, that Christ’s return as judge is very close. He will be looking for those obedient to his commandment “to love one another as I have loved you”. His sheep will be the ones caring for each other…even the least ones..as described in the illustration of the sheep and the goats. You accuse me of tearing down. Would you say the say thing of Jesus for exposing the hypocrisy of the religious leaders of his day? “Watch out for the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy” is what Jesus said.(Luke 12:1) Would you have accused the prophets like Jeremiah, Isaiah, Ezekiel and others of “tearing down”? They were sounding out WARNINGS!!! Did you not note that in the recent study of the Jeremiah book at the meetings? Jehovah is warning us! He uses his faithful servants to sound a warning to those being led astray, like lambs in the mouths of wolves!! The recent convention talks were full of warnings! The warning was there about false fronts, false gods, and false hopes, all things that the WTBTS is guilty of. Non-JW visitors I spoke to even noted this, to their amusement. “False Gods?” you ask. Yes indeed. The GB has successfully planted themselves “in the temple of God, publicly showing themselves to be a god” (2 Thes 2:4) This is the case because they say if you reject them, you reject Jehovah. That makes them as good as God. But we all know they are just men, imperfect and fallible as the rest of us. We also know that they have not been rewarded for being “faithful and discreet” yet. (See July 15 WT 2013) They may yet find themselves being judged as the “evil slave” when Jesus arrives at judgment and wants an accounting of his precious sheep. I would not like to be in their shoes.

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  50. Patrick says:

    I mean not,but love rejoices in truth. Just ask yourself these questions ….1.i broke out of d organisation,why? 2. As i have broke out, what then wil i teach, it is what is true as i had learn from the organisation or that which is clearly opposite (christendon teachings which jesus warned against)? . There are only two sides, whatever be your decision its completly yours to make.

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    • JJ says:

      I appreciate your relaxed way of commenting. Thank you for being civil, as some of the JW Apologists that come here are quite sharp in their words.

      My response to your comment is that the argument that there are only two sides to religion is fallacious. Just as there are an almost infinite range of opinions on how to serve God, so there are a near infinite number of ways to practice our belief system. JWs clearly have a number of doctrinal points wrong such as:

      1. Only 144,000 will go to heaven, and the rest do not have Jesus as their mediator. This is taught in the Watchtower and its publications.

      2. Everyone is going to die at Armageddon except active and zealous Jehovah’s Witnesses. Women, children, old folks, etc. will all die if they don’t believe the same as what is taught in the WT magazine.

      3. We need a hierarchy of men to tell us what the Bible says and to interpret it for us. This directly violates scriptures like 2 Timothy 3:16,17.

      4. Blood transfusions are forbidden in the Bible, even though it is not mentioned anywhere in scripture. Transfusing entire bags of certain blood fractions are okay with JWs, as long it is blood fractions approved of by the governing body. The blood fractions not approved by the governing body cannot be transfused though and if you do take them you will be excommunicated, shunned, and die at Armageddon.

      There are many more points that could be covered but these some that have covered in detail in this blog and many other places online such as http://www.JWFacts.com. Since JWs have several points wrong, and other sects do as well, which is “correct”? How could an imperfect person like you or me ever be able to decisively say that one is “right” and all the others are wrong? What is right for you may not be right for me or someone else.

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      • miscreant droid says:

        Hi Patrick! I’ve been enjoying your posts for quite a while, though I haven’t commented to you yet. As to your comment about there being only two sides, I’d ask you to give consideration to your new Bible. The organization has now included alternate translations (or renderings) for many scriptures. I, for one, find this very refreshing, as I’ve felt for many years that the I.S. books have taken a clear one-sided stance on interpretation, removing spiritual thought (or perhaps spiritual enlightenment) from readers.
        My point is that WE ARE ALLOWED TO THINK. Apostasy doesn’t come from those seeking to serve the true God, like most of us here, even if we are wrong in our conclusions. We aren’t working against God when we are working to enlighten people about what is meant by archaic and difficult to interpret scriptures. Freedom of Thought, seems to be a strong concern of the Almighty when one is reading the Proverbs, so consider, please, how freedom of Thought is sometimes curtailed by the answering sessions during meetings. Would you dare offer a contrary opinion when what is written in the WT is short-sighted? I would fear ending up in the back room myself.

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    • Rupunzelsawake says:

      Hi Patrick. Nice to see you again. It is because I love truth that I left the organisation, and it is because I love people, and justice. I do not subscribe to the beliefs of Christendom. I have not joined a church to come under the yoke of men once more. I am under Christ’s yoke only. There is no need for a mediator between me and my Master Jesus. There is no denying that the faithful and discreet slave have gone beyond the things written in the scriptures, and have inflicted much harm upon the sheep as a result. My conscience has been harmed by being forced to accept teachings that are not consistent with our loving Creators personality. Do you really believe that JWs as people are BETTER than all other people? Come on, really? The excessive judmentalism and hypocrisy of the organisation was wearing me down, and robbed me of joy. The prophets of old had the same feeling about the nation of Israel. Of course I learnt many wonderful things as a JW but that does not excuse the abuse that has happened. And I thank Jehovah for the good things I have learned, and not the men through whom I learned them. It was even said of the Pharisees, “Do as they say but not as they do”, and these ones were disapproved by God because of their hypocrisy. (See Mat 23:3 also Philippians 1:15-18) How much “collateral damage” do you think Jehovah will tolerate? A good shepherd “leaves the 99 sheep to go after the one”. Every single sheep is precious in his eyes. Yet, the GB is willing to sacrifice the sheep. For example consider the poor brothers and sisters in Malawi that were raped and murdered because they could not purchase a party political card. At the VERY SAME TIME the GB endorsed brothers in Mexico to BRIBE officials to obtain a document saying that they had performed one years MILITARY service and were now in the army reserves. Having the document made their lives a little easier because they could then get passports, etc.(ie, NOT a matter of life and death) A very thorough account of this double standard, and others, is given in the book “Crisis of Conscience” by Raymond Franz, a GB member with a conscience. It can be read on this site. Because this brother bravely exposed cover-ups of the Society, he was disfellowshipped, and labelled an apostate so that no-one would listen to him. This is how the society controls information. It is very dishonest. Even the Awake magazine of June 22 2000 says we should consider “all sides of an issue”. But the organisation does not permit this, yet they present themselves as being open minded. Why can they not candidly admit their errors like Moses and other bible writers did? Anyone who does raise legitimate questions for discussion is instantly labelled an apostate and therefore silenced. I left the organisation because I could see it becoming more Pharisaical and driven by rules and regulations. I clearly saw a lack of mercy. Those who earnestly study the scriptures, because they love truth, find their consciences being tormented because they recognise what they have been taught goes “beyond what is written”. A stern warning is given NOT to do this! (1 Cor 4:6) They are also warned NOT to judge anything before the DUE time! Most JWs are not serious students of the Bible. They are trained to be adept at cherry-picking verses to support the doctrinal position of their GB Masters. Most JWs are pitifully unaware of their own teachings, yet they condemn members of Christendom for the same thing! I am qualified to say this because I was a JW for 22 years, and I have questioned them. Sorry, this reply has been much longer than I anticipated. Thanks for being patient. Have you listened to my recording on jwstruggle youtube channel?

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  51. Patrick says:

    .Now regarding point #1.I think you people are beginning to understand the meaning of mediatorship.the wt said in”strict biblical sense”christ is mediator between 144,000 in the sense that they have been chosen to rule as kings with christ in the new covenant.Matt 22:28-30.,but in 1timothy 2:5 the main theme of christ mediatorship in this CHAPTER dealt primarily with the repentance and forgiveness of men by God through christ,this can be seen by reading the context asin verse 4,verse 6.prayer too is also through christ.So point 1 and 2 in the list does not stand. I would like to note that ancient ISRAEL was God’s chosen in the past.he had even promised to make them a “kingdom and priests” but however they failed to follow God and the opportunity was taken away from them and given to the new israel.if you read through your bible you will discovered that non-jews were saved by associating with jews,for example rahab and her entire family were saved by allying with israel during jericho’s fall,similarly millions will be saved by associating with the “new israel”which are the 144,000 in revelation 7:4-8.note that they are not literal jews,neither are they male virgins in a literal sense.Now another point in the list was that the wt organisation is the “sole channel of truth”.Such statements are as a result of former jw members giving distorted views of the organisation.the wt claims it is “God’s-spirit directed” which is very true.As for the relaying of spiritual truths,the governing body is responsible for guiding the body of christ into the truth,similar to what the apostles did in the first century.The holyspirit guides the activities of christians no doubt but most times it is done through those taking the lead as shown in Rev2:17-“let the one who has ears hear what the spirit says to the congregations……”(NWT).does it mean the spirit was telling each member of the congregation INDIVIDUALLY IN THEIR VERY EARS? Of course not,because according to verses1,8,12,18,it was to the ANGELS in those congregations that the spirit spoke to,therefore by listening to the figurative angels,the congregation were INDIRECTLY listening to the spirit,same thing with governing body.it is interesting to note that bible was written by those who took the lead in helping to direct God’s people,for example genesis to deutronomy,was written by moses,romans to hebrews was written by apostle paul,werent paul and moses appointed to help lead God’s people?yes.so the governing body has the right to serve as God’s channel of truth.I have never seen any wt magazine claiming it is God’s “sole channel of truth”.

      (Quote)

    • JJ says:

      “The governing body has the right to serve as God’s channel of truth”
      This statement is based on what scripture? Assertions based solely on opinion proves nothing.

      “I have never seen any wt magazine claiming it is God’s “sole channel of truth””
      Well there are several quotes in WT publications where they say just that Patrick. I am not even going to bother to find the quotes for you, they are freely found online and in the WT CD-rom.

        (Quote)

    • Rupunzelsawake says:

      When I went before the judicial committee I told the brothers that I no longer believed JWs were the “sole channel”. They did not correct me and say “Where did you get that idea that they were the sole channel”. No!! That statement got me disfellowshipped! That is really the only thing you need to say to seal your fate!

        (Quote)

      • Rupunzelsawake says:

        Here’s just a couple of quotes I located in my file:

        From WT Oct 1 1909 from 1st and 4th paragraphs of article, “That Servant and Fellow Servants”:

        Our friends insist that this Scripture indicates
        that in the end of this Gospel Age the Lord would use
        not many channels for the dissemination of the Truth,
        but one channel, and that it would be the privilege of
        others of the Lord’s faithful ones to be “fellow-servants”
        (co-laborers). They insist that the facts connected with
        this harvest time abundantly substantiate this interpretation.
        They hold that all of them received their knowledge
        of Present Truth directly from the Watch Tower
        Bible and Tract Society’s publications, or indirectly
        through those who have received their enlightenment
        through this channel.”

        “They declare that, to their
        judgments, there is no other interpretation of the facts
        before us than that presented in our Lord’s promise;
        that at the appropriate time in the end of the age, in the
        time of his presence, he would bring forth from the storehouse
        of Grace, Wisdom and Truth things “new and old,”
        and that he would select at that time one special channel..”

        You will find more in the video series “The Channel of God” on youtube.

          (Quote)

        • Rupunzelsawake says:

          One more recent quote from the “Proclaimers of God’s Kingdom” book, pg 626:

          However, as the light of truth progressively shone even more brightly after Brother Russell’s death, and as the preaching that Jesus had foretold became even more extensive, it became evident that the “faithful and wise servant” (KJ), or “faithful and discreet slave” (NW), had not passed off the scene when Brother Russell died. In 1881, Brother Russell himself had expressed the view that that “servant” was made up of the entire body of faithful spirit-anointed Christians. He saw it as being a collective servant, a class of persons who were united in doing God’s will. (Compare Isaiah 43:10.) This understanding was reaffirmed by the Bible Students in 1927. Jehovah’s Witnesses today recognize the Watchtower magazine and kindred publications to be the ones used by the faithful and discreet slave to dispense spiritual food. They do not claim that this slave class is infallible, but they do view it as the ONE CHANNEL that the Lord is using during the last days of this system of things.

            (Quote)

  52. Rupunzelsawake says:

    Hi Patrick. Perhaps you would like to check out the WT quotes at
    http://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/organization.php and at
    http://www.jwfacts.com/watchto.....nesses.php. There is no problem with the Governing Body “dispensing spiritual food”. However they say that true spiritual food is only dispensed by them, and that to be saved you MUST come to them.. From 1914 onwards they say all other professed Christians are “imitation Christians”. Do they not also use the Bible which was written under direction of holy spirit? The GB does not claim to be inspired, yet they act as if they are. If we individually take direction from, and adhere faithfully to, God’s inspired word, (and not go “beyond the things written”), we can be protected from falling prey to misleading “inspired utterances” of men, and “teachings of demons”. (1 Timothy 4:1) Please note that there are many different people on this site that may have varying views. So don’t make assumptions about what anyone here believes. We are not about dogmatism or creating sects.

      (Quote)

  53. JimmyG says:

    Patrick, can I make a couple of suggestions? Please use correct grammar. Your prose gives the impression of phone texting. Also, use paragraphs for each idea that you’re making.

    It will be far easier for us to understand you and you are more likely to be taken seriously.

      (Quote)

    • miscreant droid says:

      Thanks JimmyG.

      I agree, Patrick, that some of your posts come across like tweets from a twelve-year-old girl, which takes away from the seriousness of you message. For most of us here, reading hip-hop shorthand is actually irritating. Concise grammar would be greatly appreciated.

      Thanks, Patrick– and we are always grateful to hear from active publishers.

      MD

        (Quote)

  54. Michael says:

    Excellent explanation patrick.rapunzel you are making claims regarding the wt “prophecies” that are not true.Since you are a former jw,you should know that organisation was not prophesying,they were only interpreting already said prophecies and since they did not claim divine inspiration,they are liable to make mistakes in their interpretations,as regards the articles where many claim they were falsely prophesying about 1975,1914, i will soon provide information as to whether they were really prophesying with regards to such dates.on the use of the divine name i will discuss that now…till then ex-brothers

      (Quote)

    • JJ says:

      Michael

      Welcome to the JWStruggle it is fascinating to me how many “JW Apologists” like to come here. There are literally thousands of visits each month from current JWs to the site, in direct violation of what their governing body slave masters have put into the Watchtower.

      BTW I love Seattle and the state of Washington it is quite pretty there. How long have you and Patrick lived in that area and known each other?

        (Quote)

    • Rupunzelsawake says:

      Welcome Michael! There are WT quotes where the WT actually says it is God’s prophet! Here’s just one example:
      Watchtower 1972, April 1st p.197:
      “Of Course, it is easy to say that this group acts as a ‘prophet’ of God. It is another thing to prove it. The only way that this can be done is to review the record. What does it show?”

      Of course we all know they are only interpreting the prophecies in the Bible. The problem lies with them enforcing the acceptance of their interpretations, which they have done repeatedly in the past. They are less inclined to put dates on things now because of previously failed predictions. Have you read the transcript of the Walsh Trial of 1954? I think normal, rational people would find it rather alarming. God wants us to serve him with our “whole mind”, “our powers of reason”, not give our minds over to someone else.

        (Quote)

  55. Chris says:

    Michael
    If I INTERPRET something written by someone else then this allows for an alternate interpretation from others, even it is just one word or sentence, do you agree?
    I might also issue a disclaimer to say that my interpretation is based on several assumptions or line of reasoning and is therefore subject to scrutiny or peer review.
    Indeed most reputable Bible translations do this very thing when they lay out the basis for their translation of certain words or phrases.
    However if I claim to be “appointed by the Author” and “the Author’s channel of communication on Earth today ” those reading what I have written will either treat what I say as from the Author himself or they may test my claim of appointment by seeing if events transpire as I claim they will.
    If I embellished what the Author has said with my own little touches because I fancy myself as somewhat of a writer, then how do you think the Author would feel?
    Also if events did not transpire as I had embellished them could I reasonably expect the readers to take me seriously in the future? Would it not even cause some to lose confidence in the Author because they see me as the Author’s spokesperson? Far better for me to not exceed my mandate by trying to interpret things I am unsure of, or maybe if some clarification is required then I would issue a disclaimer saying “SOME aspects of this interpretation are subject to translation and the difficulty I have had conveying the thoughts of the Author on these matters. This is because the Author reserves the right to make these matters clear in His own time and I wait in eager anticipation for Him to do so. Until then the reader can only benefit by applying those truths which are already known to have been accurately conveyed”.
    Both Joseph, Daniel and other prophets INTERPRETED dreams given by God and these dreams came true and so became PROPHECIES. All these men exhibited a humble approach to what they were conveying and relied on these words to come true making them TRUE prophets.
    Other men were called upon to interpret these same dreams but were unable to do so. Their interpretations were false and so not from God. This made them FALSE prophets.
    You cannot claim to be appointed by God and Jesus then publish a definitive and explicit definition of scriptures which turns out to be incorrect then say it was just an interpretation.
    Do you follow the logic?
    The history of the WTS is littered with false interpretations and the only disclaimers they issue are after their interpretations prove false, and they usually blame the reader not themselves.

      (Quote)

  56. Frank says:

    Michael, placing moral disclaimers as a footnote in the Watchtower magazine ‘after the fact’; when it is plain that the prophetic claims are clearly wrong is not impressive.

    Are you saying that the WTBTS-sponsored exhortation “Stay alive ’til ’75” was accidental? The fact is that eschatology is a serious subject that has profoundly affected the lives of the naive. If the claim is made to ‘the faithful’ that they should view everything coming from the Governing Body as if it is coming from God himself; either God is feeding false information to his CEOs or the CEOs have run ahead of his holy word – which do you prefer?

      (Quote)

  57. Michael says:

    That is where many of you get it wrong.The wt like i said only interpreted scripture with a difference,they were not DIVINELY INSPIRED, unlike people like joseph,daniel. Jehovah’s witnesses believe that gift of prophecy and inspired writing ended in the days of the apostle. Thus only faith ,hope and love remained,thus God’s people would have to make effort to understand His prophecies and since they do not receive direct revelations from God,they are bound to make mistakes in calculating bible chronology . You see when people want to criticise the organisation they begin to selectively quote old watchtower magazines without putting the more cautionary statements and it is sad to see ex-brothers resorting to the same tactics. If you read the watchtower magazine carefully, you will observe that anytime it calls itself a prophet,the “prophet” is always in quote,thus indicating that it is not a divinely inspired prophet,but a prophet in a quasi-sense. Now when wt magazines say they are the “one channel” they meant that they are the ones that gives true spiritual food to its members as well as people of the world. Doctrines like the trinity,hellfire are all products of false spiritual food given by christendom.

    All your accusations that the organisation is a false prophet does not. I do not have space to elaborate more as i phone texting(my computer is faulty) but however you can email your question to brother heinz schimzt at hector3001@aol.com,he will be glad to answer your questions.Next time i comment i will tackle the problem of disfellowshipment

      (Quote)

    • JJ says:

      Michael you say that it is only “ex-brothers” that come here. This statement is judgmental and actually incorrect.

      • First, many active and fading JWs come here that have the same reservations as former JWs. Many thousands visit here each month and active JWs that are sickened by WT policy regularly comment here.

      • Secondly, just because a person has left Watchtower does not mean they have left God and ergo are an “ex-brother”.

        (Quote)

      • miscreant droid says:

        Thanks for pointing that out, JJ.

        I’m still a brother in good standing who attends regularly. I’m suspicious of the WTs agenda, but I don’t consider myself an enemy of the Organization or any other Christian church. I just got sick of all the “us against them” doctrine when I know darn well that Jah’s spirit is with any man or woman who gives serious consideration to His word– not just JWs. (1st John 2:17)
        Michael, your defense of the GB is well thought out and I even agree with most of it. I hope that you’re able to recognize that the same arguments you’ve made are just as valid when applied to other churches. There’s the rub, brother. Why are JWs the only true faith? Doctrines like the trinity and hellfire may be inaccurate interpretations (and particularly offensive to you), but there are plenty of scriptures to support these ideas. If the GB has made mistakes, like preparing the flock for Armageddon before it’s time (which is particularly offensive to me) then how is this different from Christendom? (Please note that I mean no slant against the Organization by comparing them to Christendom, since I recognize them as brothers in the faith as well as you.)

        Thanks Michael for posting with us.

          (Quote)

    • Chris says:

      If they are not inspired then how do they know they have been appointed?
      Did Jesus speak to them directly and say what he promised to say in Matt.24:45-47?
      When did He do that Michael and where is the proof?
      Or should we simply take their word for it?

        (Quote)

    • Rupunzelsawake says:

      There is a distinct lack of “cautionary statements” in older WT publications regarding Bible chronolgy. Here’s an excerpt from Cedar’s latest article on jwsurvey:

      From Studies in the Scriptures volume 2:

      “Be not surprised then when in subsequent chapters we present proofs that the setting up of the Kingdom of God is already begun, that it is pointed out in prophecy as due to begin the exercise of power in AD 1878, and the “the battle of the great day of God Almighty” (Rev 16:14), will end in AD1914 with the complete overthrow of earth’s present rulership, is already commenced. The gathering of the armies is already visible from the standpoint of God’s Word.
      As can be clearly seen from the above, Russell expected 1914 to mark, not the beginning, but the END of Armageddon. He further claimed that Christ had already started ruling invisibly in 1878. Were these claims put forward as innocent suggestions on a “take it or leave it” basis? No. Russell considered the imminence of Armageddon back then as “plainly visible” from the Bible’s standpoint. And yet notice how the latest Watchtower describes pre-1914 expectations…

      “They were not completely sure about what would happen. Still, they knew that 1914 would mark a turning point regarding divine rulership.” – w14 1/15 p.28

      It is impossible to read those words and identify them with the certainty with which Russell propounded his specific expectations for 1914. Consider two more of his quotes from pre-1914, and notice the conviction with which these statements are made…

      “The date of the close of that ‘battle’ is definitely marked in Scripture as October, 1914. It is already in progress, its beginning dating from October, 1874.” – Watchtower reprints, January 15, 1892, p.1355

      “We see no reason for changing the figures — nor could we change them if we would. They are, we believe, God’s dates, not ours. But bear in mind that the end of 1914 is not the date for the beginning, but for the end of the time of trouble.” – Watchtower reprints, July 15, 1894, p. 1677

      For more similar quotes, please click here.

      By claiming that Russell and his associates were not “completely sure” about what would happen in 1914, Watchtower is re-writing its own history. And not for the first time either. The publications show that Russell WAS totally convinced of what would happen in 1914 – he just turned out to be wrong. And he died in 1916 before he could see just how wrong he was.

        (Quote)

  58. Rupunzelsawake says:

    We KNOW they are not divinely inspired. Never have they stated they are infallible. Yet to question them is paramount to questioning Jehovah. To reject them is the same as rejecting Jehovah. They “play God” with people’s lives. That is WHY they should NEVER FORCE ACCEPTANCE of an interpretation. Read the Walsh trial. You obviously have not. According to what WT representatives said at that trial, they will disfellowship a person, possibly destroying that person’s life, consider him WORTHY OF DEATH, for not accepting an INTERPRETATION of scripture or prophecy. A spokesman for the organisation at my recent DC stated in a media interview, “Naturally the Bible is open to interpretation. “……BUT IT IS NOT OPEN TO INTERPRETATION FOR JWs. It wasn’t back at the time of the Walsh trial, and it isn’t today either.

    It seems Michael you are pitifully unaware of WT history and it’s view of chronology. Have you heard of the Stone Witness?

      (Quote)

  59. Michael says:

    Websites like jw-struggle are designed to accodomate disfellowshipped brothers and sisters,it is to help them recuperate after their removal from the organisation,but what i mostly see here are people voicing out their complaints against the organisation.

    The apostle paul encouraged christians to “speak in agreement” 1cor1:10 and “that there should not be divisions among you,but that you may be firmly united in the same mind and in the same line of thought”. Now why would paul make such statements if members of the congregation were to have differing opinions? They were divided on the basis of who they will follow according to verse 12 and 13. Paul corrected such a notion and advised them to be in the same thought. Now in Rom16:17 we are exhorted to keep an eye on “those who cause divisions”. Now these questions remains,those who wanted to cause divisions ,werent they thinking differently?why does paul try suppress such thoughts? Isn’t it “forced” unity? In any case paul only did it to protect the congregation,same thing jw’s do today.

    Hymenaeus and philetus were christians in the first century,thus they must have started out well,however they deviated from the truth,and what did paul do,”i have handed them over to satan”. Very strange,why didn’t paul allow them to remain in the congregation? He even handed them to satan,in other words they were disfellowshipped. Remember a “little leaven ferments the whole lump” and we follow paul’s words “remove the wicked man from among yourselves”1cor5:1-12

    seems i must end this converse,as i am busy,if you know what i mean. My prayer is that Jehovah will redirect you back to you back to the truth. Sorry for not replying all your questions as i am phone texting…..Adios ex-brothers and sisters

      (Quote)

    • Rupunzelsawake says:

      This site is designed for people like you Michael. To remove the scales from your eyes dear brother! That’s why Jehovah has brought you here!

        (Quote)

  60. Patrick says:

    Good comment brother mike. Remember brothers .;faith, hope and love remains. Put on the armor of god ,knowing that you have become like soldiers therefore understand the rhtyme of endurance.

      (Quote)

  61. Reader says:

    Dear Michael;
    Since the age of sixteen [mid 1960s] I had differences of thought with WT, but continued for about thirty years balancing these in everything I said, which is not easy.
    Then something disgusted me and I walked/faded.

    The ‘one channel’ is a pleasant falacy.

    There was a single method under the Temple arrangement, but in many cases though respected, the ones actually expressing Jehovah’s instructions were as if exiles; just read the OT.
    Then the Official Channel conspired to get a Roman who had no such wish to kill Jesus; just read your NT.
    One channel is a dangerous Papist construction & is not new.

    I never expected when I walked nearly twenty years ago the GB to proclaim a Cardinal status.

    What you see in these sites is maybe a modern version of sons of prophets hiding in caves.
    Congratulations for a revised NWT are in order though.
    b

    ps: visit but dont’ comment in case some zealot gets you shunned or even Dsd. just practical advice no more than that.

      (Quote)

  62. Rupunzelsawake says:

    Brothers and sisters are urged to consider the consciences of others. This is the loving thing to do….not considering yourself superior, but having lowliness of mind, not forcing your own understanding upon another, and judging them by your own human and limited understandings. Divisions and sectarianism occurs when some proudly assert their own ideas above all others. Jesus said love would be a perfect bond of union…This involves the willingness to yield, even as Jehovah himself has done with his dealings with humans. There are many of the finer details in God’s Word that are unclear. I find interesting Paul’s words at 1 Cor 11:19, “For there must also be sects among you, that the persons approved may also become manifest among you”. Jesus words regarding the “last days” included warnings about not “going after” sects. Jehovah’s Witnesses are another sect of Christendom I’m afraid. They are no better nor any worse than other churches professing to be Christian. There will be true and false Christians in all of them, but the warning is there to “get out!”.

    Many thinking people have seen the similarities between the way the WT organisation is run, with communism. In the Walsh trial the brother said “Unity AT ALL COSTS”!! Hitler would have said the same thing to his soldiers whose consciences were troubled over sending innocent women and children to the gas chambers. This pseudo-unity has COST LIVES, the lives of people that God loves. “He loved the world so much that he sent his only-begotten son..”. That is the world of humanity. Jehovah loves people.

    I would like to know what you think it is that makes a man wicked. What is it that makes someone an “imitation” Christian, which is what WT says of ALL professing Christians outside the WT. (Note that all these imitation Christians have been consigned to the fire, ie. Gehenna, as of 1914…so no resurrection for these ones should they die prior to Armageddon).

      (Quote)

    • Reader says:

      Rupunzelsawake: I would like to know what you think it is that makes a man wicked. What is it that makes someone an “imitation” Christian, which is what WT says of ALL professing Christians outside the WT. (Note that all these imitation Christians have been consigned to the fire, ie. Gehenna, as of 1914…so no resurrection for these ones should they die prior to Armageddon).

      Not sure which of what I said raised your questions, or if the question was for someone else?

      You could write a large book to answer this, -but no need Jehovah already has!

      So I’ll try a simplistic shorter answer:

      The germ start of sin is selfishness, but we are all selfish in our own interests.

      Within our own rights and domain, this is no sin.

      When that selfishness grows in strength and eventually overpowers the interests or rights of another to thier injury or loss: sin results.

      There is a victim or injury in sin.

      We have been given moral instincts to help, but these do not cover all eventualities.

      God gives Law as final help there.

      Love of others would tend to damp down selfish traits.

      This might be understating the issues, but the best I can do for what is a profound question.

      Q2./ What is it that makes someone an “imitation” Christian

      Perhaps because they want to appear righteous whilst following their sellfish interest?

      Q3./ which is what WT says of ALL professing Christians outside the WT. (Note that all these imitation Christians have been consigned to the fire, ie. Gehenna, as of 1914…so no resurrection for these ones should they die prior to Armageddon).

      Jehovah will have mercy on who he wishes and destroy those he wishes.
      This is writen and will never alter no matter how eloquent the upstart preacher.
      Sinful or even sinless man does not give orders to the Almighty.

      You might find this link of similar interest:http://yahweh-immanuel.info/da.....html#Rahab

      B

        (Quote)

      • Rupunzelsawake says:

        Hi Reader. Thanks for your reply and I agree with what you’ve said, but I was really addressing those subscribing to the “one channel” teaching of JWs. I would like to know how they would define a false or imitation Christian, given that all outside the WT are considered false.

          (Quote)

    • Chris says:

      “Many thinking people have seen the similarities between the way the WT organisation is run, with communism”
      So true Rupunzel
      The irony is that most Communist nations are called “The People’s Republic of……” and yet the people have no say in the running of their republic.
      “Jehovah’s Theocratic Organisation on Earth” is not run by Jehovah but by a politburo of 8 men.

        (Quote)

  63. Patrick says:

    The original pronunciation of Gods name was lost as a result of a jewish superstition that Gods name was too sacred to be pronounced . I will admit that scholars favoured “yahweh” more than “jehova”, but does this mean that we should no longer use the other form “jehova” ? Of course not . It should be noted that nobody knows how “jesus” name was pronounced , it could be have been pronunced as “ye-ho-shu-a” or “ye-shu-a”, but not many people today advocate that we use the probable hebrew pronunciation of jesus’s name , rather we all use the anglicised form “jesus”, why ? This is because we are used to it as common to our ear . Similarly nobody knows how the hebrew name of “jeremiah” was pronunced i.e ” vremenyahu”, but in our bibles we use the anglicised form “jeremiah”. The wt uses the other form “jehova” as it is the anglicised form of the tetragrammation (YHWH), moreover “jehova” as it is also close to the pronunciation of the divine name , just as “yahweh” , however we all know that we cannot say with absolute correctedness that either “jehova” or “yahweh” is the true pronunciation of Gods name . It is interesting to note that in the king james version, “jehova” is used in 4 verses e.g exodus 6:3,ps 83:18, also in the american standard version ,”jehova” is still acceptable to scholars. Note : Rotherham’s bible uses “yahweh”. Thus the nwt then reserves the right to use “jehova” in the bible and magazine . Some questions remain that need to be asked . If the form yahweh is more favoured by scholars, why do most bible translations not render the divine name as yahweh, but rather they replace it with “lord” ? If “jehova” is not acceptable why do many christians still use it in books, sermons and christian songs ? . I think the wt did a good job by using the form “jehova” in their bible.

      (Quote)

    • Rupunzelsawake says:

      Most on this site have no objections to the various pronunciations of God’s name. It is not considered a huge issue. It is the bearer and character of the Name that is important. When I was a Catholic the name Yahweh was used, but infrequently. Unfortunately in the WTs zeal to replace the divine name in it’s rightful places,(a good thing) they successfully demoted the name of the one that as Christians we are to call upon. That is, the name of Jesus. (Compare Romans 10:13 and Act 4:10-12) Did you know Paul entreated the resurrected Jesus? And according to the NWT footnote at Acts 7:59, Stephen “prayed” to Jesus? Did you know that up until the 1950’s JWs worshipped and prayed to Jesus? And up until the 1990’s the Societies charter stated it was set up for the worship of Jehovah AND Jesus?

        (Quote)

  64. Patrick says:

    Brother rupunzel, you said brother and sisters should do things according to the conscience of others .but on what basis do we do that ? Clearly we do that by always telling ourselves the truth and by standard of Gods laws 1cor 13:4 . And also jehova loves his loyal ones ps 116:15,ps 37:28, isa 2:9. Also be patient with God even till death knowing that you will be raised again if he wills 2tim 4:2, mic 7:7.

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  65. Rupunzelsawake says:

    As Christians we should not impose our “Bible trained conscience” on our brother or sisters “Bible trained consciences”. I was in no way suggesting that we condone wrongdoing.

    I found it amusing at the Assembly “Safeguard Your Conscience” that the GB said, “We do not impose our conscience on the world-wide brotherhood”. That is literally what was said. This was in regards to what and how the brothers and sisters report their time in the ministry….a somewhat trivial matter. In the same breath they said you MUST follow the instructions in the “Organised” book. I was left somewhat confused as to the meaning of their message.

    I feel great sadness when I think of the lives that have been damaged, or have even been ended, by the imposition of the conscience of a few men claiming to be God’s channel, on the consciences of millions of honest hearted people who just want to serve God. They didn’t “sign up” to become slaves of men, but that is exactly what has happened.

    Patrick said, “Faith, hope and love remains”. Truer words have never been said. Could someone please tell the GB that. Why, oh why, do they keep going beyond these things?

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  66. A Man For All Seasons says:

    To Michael and Patrick:

    Gentlemen,

    I am quite interested in the “cognitive dissonance” and amazing “contradictions” between your comments and your actions as revealed in Michael’s comment as follows:

    “The apostle paul encouraged christians to “speak in agreement” 1cor1:10 and “that there should not be divisions among you,but that you may be firmly united in the same mind and in the same line of thought”. Now why would paul make such statements if members of the congregation were to have differing opinions? They were divided on the basis of who they will follow according to verse 12 and 13. Paul corrected such a notion and advised them to be in the same thought. Now in Rom16:17 we are exhorted to keep an eye on “those who cause divisions”. Now these questions remains,those who wanted to cause divisions ,werent they thinking differently?why does paul try suppress such thoughts? Isn’t it “forced” unity? In any case paul only did it to protect the congregation,same thing jw’s do today.”

    And his comment continues:

    “Hymenaeus and philetus were christians in the first century,thus they must have started out well,however they deviated from the truth,and what did paul do,”i have handed them over to satan”. Very strange,why didn’t paul allow them to remain in the congregation? He even handed them to satan,in other words they were disfellowshipped. Remember a “little leaven ferments the whole lump” and we follow paul’s words “remove the wicked man from among yourselves”1cor5:1-12”

    And then Patrick says: “Good comment brother mike.”

    With the above comments in mind, I would like to inquire if you were present at the Watchtower study during the week of September 5-11, 2011. If so, were you paying “careful” and “close” attention? In case you missed that particular study and perhaps were not keeping up to date with the required reading, I have posted what I am sure you will agree is a very pertinent and important excerpt from that particular study article as follows:

    Watchtower 2011 7/15 p.16 pars.6-7 ~ Will You Heed Jehovah’s Clear Warnings?

    “How can we protect ourselves against false teachers? The Bible’s counsel….is clear. (Read Romans 16:17; 2 John 9-11) “Avoid them,” says God’s Word. Other translations render that phrase “turn away from them,” “keep away from them,” and “stay away from them!” There is nothing ambiguous about that inspired counsel….apostates are “mentally diseased”….(1 Tim. 6:3, 4) Jehovah, the Great Physician, tells us to avoid contact with them….are we determined to heed his warning in all respects? What is involved in avoiding false teachers? We do not receive them into our homes or greet them…. refuse to read their literature…. examine their Web sites, or add our comments to their blogs. Why do we take such a firm stand? Because of love. We love “the God of truth”….(Ps. 31:5; John 17:17)

    Thus, Michael & Patrick, are you determined to heed the warnings of the “Great Physician”, Jehovah, as outlined in this Watchtower article? Do you believe that viewing this website and posting here is a demonstration of loyalty and obedience to Jehovah, the Watchtower organization, and the “governing body”? Because, you see, the article very specifically and clearly states that “We do not….examine their Web sites, or add our comments to their blogs. Why do we take such a firm stand? Because of love. We love “the God of truth”….

    Accordingly, Michael & Patrick, I now present these additional thought provoking questions to you: “Who exactly are you following? Are your actions indicative of speaking in agreement with the Watchtower organization and its “governing body”? Are you fitly united in the same mind and thought with them? Or are you thinking differently as, completely contrary to the very clear and unambiguous counsel/instruction outlined in the Watchtower study article, you are both viewing this website and posting comments?”

    And finally, with all of the above in mind, how would you evaluate your spiritual comprehension in light of and as it pertains to the very “specific” and “clear” counsel/instructions of the “governing body” as outlined in the above quoted article?

    Perhaps, in the interest of “forced” unity, like “Hymenaeus and Philetus” both of you should be “handed over to Satan” and removed/disfellowshipped from the congregation before you can cause divisions with your different thinking/opinions and “wicked”, “brazen” disobedience regarding the viewing of websites such as this one and posting comments. What do you think? As Michael carefully pointed out: “Remember a “little leaven ferments the whole lump” and we follow paul’s words “remove the wicked man from among yourselves”” ~ 1Corinthians 5:1-12.

    Of course, as Eric has made abundantly clear, you are always welcome to view this website and comment freely.

    However, as you contemplate this invitation, just remember that “examining” this website and “posting comments” clearly “marks you” as not “speaking in agreement” with the Watchtower organization and its “governing body” and you are certainly not heeding the warnings of the “Great Physician” in “all respects”. Those who are loyal to the Watchtower organization and “fitly united in the same mind and the same line of thought”, take a “firm stand” and “do not examine” websites such as this one nor do they “post comments to their blogs”. ~ Watchtower 2011 7/15 p.16 pars.6-7 ~ “Will You Heed Jehovah’s Clear Warnings?”

    A Man For All Seasons
    4th generation JW

    “But do most people carefully analyze the real issues involved….? Or do they just accept what they are told?” ~ Awake 2000, 6/22, pg.6 par.10

      (Quote)

    • miscreant droid says:

      Hi, Man For All, You’re suggesting that we left or no longer believe the GB due to us personally leaving behind what we’ve been taught. Please tell me, should I accept the truth of what I read in the Bible, or the opinions of the study articles? If you say there is no difference, I’d recommend you spend more time in your Bible.
      We are, in fact, adhering to Paul’s counsel when we find the GB going beyond what is written, or creating policies outside of scripture. This is what Paul told us to steer clear from. Rom 16:17, 2nd John 9-11, 1st Tim 6:3-4, John 17:17. These are the scriptures you used and I apply them right back to you. If I have done so incorrectly, please make clear to me where I have misunderstood.
      Man For All, please don’t take my comments too seriously. I consider you a brother in Christ as much as any Mormon, Baptist, Catholic, etc., who lives morally due to their concern for scripture. If we’re going to be judged adversely for “doctrine”, then NONE of us will stand a chance on the Great Day. If we ARE judged for doctrine, then all of those who ‘fell asleep’ before the most recent ‘new light’ will be as guilty as any other religion you claim does not have Jah’s Spirit.

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  67. Reader says:

    so theocracy actually being homo-octocracy?
    man/eight/rule.
    B

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  68. Frank says:

    Actually, Reader, it would be an Octocracy (eight-man-rule). Homo is Latin for male or man, so therefore is a Homooctocracy or Homoctocracy. There, I coined a new word.

    The word ‘theocracy’ does not appear in the Bible. Our loving brother Rutherford introduced it in his 1937 book, Theocracy, and haven’t we been enjoying the spiritual benefits ever since?

    Frank

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  69. Reader says:

    Too many o’s makes various versions tongue twisters

    homo oct’ ocracy I though could be said without sounding too silly.

    But I wanted to emphasize the human /man component not just the eight.

    But whatever floats your boat.

    Anybody else? or move on from a pun in-passing?

    B

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  70. danielB says:

    You make some logical points , A Man For All Seasons . But one must consider carefully whether those Scriptural “leaving the Truth” urgings apply to one specific manmade Organization ; or isn’t it fair to apply them to leaving the Word of God . . ?

    We must be careful with this consideration .

    Do you understand ?

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  71. Frank says:

    I was just a bit concerned others might question the GB’s sexuality, that’s all.

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  72. Reader says:

    Homo just means man as in hombre, homonid, and tends to preceed other components in constructs.
    But is it useful as a word?

    homo octo cracy

    if we consider theocracy it isn’t another word may have a place
    but there only ever was two
    pre man’s sin
    Moses to Samuel

    B

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  73. A Man For All Seasons says:

    Hello Miscreant Droid & danielB,

    I believe you may have misunderstood my comments in reply to Michael and Patrick.

    I quoted from paragraphs 6 & 7 of the Watchtower study article: “Will You Heed Jehovah’s Clear Warnings?” ~ Watchtower 2011 7/15 p.16 pars.6-7

    Perhaps it appeared that the statements were actually my comments or viewpoint? The scriptures listed that you referred to, Miscreant Droid, are actually the scriptures quoted in the article. I then followed up after drawing their attention to and “quoting” that “study article” by asking some very pointed questions about the obvious contradiction between Michael’s comment (subsequently endorsed by Patrick) promoting the scripturalness of “forced unity”, and their actions of viewing and posting on this website. Their actions are completely contrary to the very direct and clear counsel/direction of the “governing body” which is hardly indicative of “speaking in agreement” with the “mother organization” or of being “fitly united in the same mind and same line of thought” with such. Is it?

    If you go back and review Michael’s comment #59, you will notice he introduces his comment with: “what i mostly see here are people voicing out their complaints against the organisation”. He then embarks on his comment of justifying “forced unity” and disfellowshipping, quite clearly linking the examples of Hymenaeus and Philetus with any who voice disagreement, conscientious or otherwise, with the Watchtower organization and its “governing body”. He then concludes his comment with: “Adios ex-brothers and sisters”.

    I personally found the entirety of the comment to be more than a little condescending, arrogant, dismissive. Perhaps you may agree. Or perhaps not.

    So, yes, I was very direct in holding up that Watchtower article as a mirror for them to re-evaluate their defense of the Watchtower organization/governing body policy of “enforced unity” in the light of their own “independent” and “disobedient” actions of visiting and posting on this website. According to Watchtower “scriptural interpretation” and “organizational standards” such independent, disobedient actions could put them in danger of being in the same category as Hymaneus and Philetus, harboring different opinions or views (refer to the letter to elders, I believe circa 1981, concerning grounds for apostasy), and thus subject to being “handed over to Satan”, disfellowshipped. As Michael carefully pointed out: “Remember a “little leaven ferments the whole lump” and we follow paul’s words “remove the wicked man from among yourselves”” ~ 1 Corinthians 5:1-12.

    So, just a little leaven from individuals with an “independent attitude” ignoring and disobeying the Watchtower directive of “firmly” avoiding websites like this one and not posting comments, has the potential to influence others in like manner. Could this not be a potentially divisive influence in the congregation according to the standards of the Watchtower organization and the gb?

    Clearly, Michael introduced this idea in his comment. I held it back up to him and Patrick as a mirror based on the Watchtower article, not my own personal opinions or beliefs. If they disagree, they are disagreeing not with me, but with the Watchtower organization and the governing body. Their argument, if they have one, will be with the Watchtower. Hopefully, it plants a seed that may, at some point, lead to some meaningful reflection and reasoning.

    I do not personally agree with that Watchtower study article or with the narrow view applied to Christian unity based on what is clearly (at least from my perspective) a misapplication of 1 Corinthians 1:10-13. Nor do I blindly follow the self-appointed, self-serving men in Brooklyn who promote articles, such as the one quoted from in my comments, and use them to indoctrinate with unhealthy, unscriptural thinking and reasoning. The end results, as you both know, can be devastating and destructive, ruining and sometimes ending lives.

    Much of what is being published in the Watchtower study articles as well as presented in assembly talks is outright propaganda and defaming slander towards anyone who does not agree with or follow the “governing body” unquestioningly. It’s about power and control over others, and it’s disgusting, especially when it is done in the name of God with a deceptive, thin veneer of Christianity layered on for appearances sake. But what utter corruption, hatefulness, hypocrisy, and deception lurk underneath that veneer.

    Although I am still associated with a congregation, I have greatly reduced my presence. I will not give any additional details here as, in my mind, there is good reason to believe that the Watchtower has sites such as this one monitored. And based on my current circumstances, I choose to be very careful in what I reveal online as far as personal details. Now how sad is that, and what does it tell you about the Watchtower organization? Can you imagine Christ instructing or directing the apostles to engage in spying on individuals? Can you imagine Christ presiding over or setting up the guidelines for a “Star Chamber Kangaroo Court” judiciary?

    Undoubtedly, I am not conveying anything that either of you don’t already know or haven’t personally experienced. Bottom line is, though, I don’t follow men and I abhor the arrogance and injustice of the ever secretive “Star Chamber Kangaroo Court” system of the Watchtower Society which has perpetuated and empowered their corrupt and deceptive agendas. That includes their unscriptural “enforced unity” and “shunning” doctrine, imposing their collective conscience upon the individual conscience of other Christians, and demanding loyalty that only rightfully belongs to God & Christ. The “governing body” has gone way, way, way beyond the things that are written. ~ Matthew 23:4-10; 1 Corinthians 1:3; 4:6; 7:23; 10:29; Galatians 5:1-5,14

    So, in answer to your question danielB, yes I most definitely understand.

    And no, Miscreant Droid, I didn’t take your comments too seriously.

    I believe your responses are most likely a misunderstanding due to the way I outlined or constructed my comment. Maybe that’s something I can try to improve.

    A Man For All Seasons
    4th generation JW

    “A simple man believes every word he hears; a clever man understands the need for proof.” (Prov. 14:15 ~ The New English Bible)

    “But do most people carefully analyze the real issues involved….? Or do they just accept what they are told?” ~ Awake 2000, 6/22, pg.6 par.10

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    • Reader says:

      A Man For All Seasons: Although I am still associated with a congregation, I have greatly reduced my presence. I will not give any additional details here as, in my mind, there is good reason to believe that the Watchtower has sites such as this one monitored. And based on my current circumstances, I choose to be very careful in what I reveal online as far as personal details.

      Very wise, as a processor can only tell 1 from 0 it is basically insecure, besides a person can give themselves away by little things they say or the way they say it.

      Be pity if a person only trying to help, became an exile in his home congregation.

      But I think full cyber attack unlikely, as of now.
      B

        (Quote)

      • A Man For All Seasons says:

        Thanks for your reply Reader. I appreciate your insight, advice, and support.

        A Man For All Seasons
        4th generation JW

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    • A Man For All Seasons says:

      Correction: 1 Corinthians 1:3 was listed in error at the end of my comment concerning the “governing body”. Should be 1 Corinthians 1:13 (NWT) ~ “The Christ exists divided. Paul was not impaled for YOU, was he? Or were YOU baptized in the name of Paul?”

      A Man For All Seasons
      4th generation JW

        (Quote)

      • miscreant droid says:

        Thanks, Man For All, for correcting my misunderstanding. I’ve re-read your post and realize my error now.
        I’m also still attending, as I don’t believe I’ll find a perfect church and ergo don’t need to partake in a different worship program. I’ve only been cautious about personal descriptions of myself though. When I landed here for the first time, all of my complaints were clearly described by more eloquent rebels than I, so most of these complaints must be voiced privately or less discreetly to elders with enough regularity that I’m not worried about being identified from my opinions.

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  74. JimmyG says:

    A man for all seasons- I agree wholeheartedly with your comments. From time to time I have used the same quotes from this particular WT article on JW apologists who visit so called ‘apostate’ web sites like this. Not one so far has attempted to justify not only their presence, but their commenting as well. Both activities are outlawed by the 8 popes of the WT GB.

    You’re brave to keep associating with a congregation. Be very careful what you say! No doubt people in the congregation have noticed that you’ve changed. JWs are generally nosy and answering their enquiries can escalate into the ‘star chamber kangaroo court’ you so aptly described. Personally, I chose to remove myself from the dangerous atmosphere of the congregation.

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  75. patrick says:

    It is very interesting that you all are discussing on Michael’s commenting on this blog,as well as mine. I would like to tell you all that I know Michael personally, I was the one who invited him to comment here, of which he rejected at first,but due to my persistence he decided to come see things for himself.

    When I confronted him on why he left hastily from commenting on this blog, he reminded me of the instructions the organization gave regarding commenting on websites such as this one, he realized his mistake, resulting in his hasty departure from this blog. So man of all season should not say Michael contradicted himself.

    At least Michael has decided to correct his mistake of which I will also follow suit and begin once more to “speak in agreement” with the congregation. But I guess that’s the difference between you apostates and us. You have totally rejected the correction given to you and cut yourself off from the congregation. Maybe some of you should borrow a leaf from him and return back to the organization.

    It was interesting to see Chris refuting a Trinitarian, but I thought this website was those who didn’t believe in the teachings of jehovah’s witnesses anymore. Maybe some of you still want to return to the organization, please do. I used the term apostates in response to what man of all season wrote. Why do I say so? Because If my viewing of this site is viewed as disobedience to the to the organization, indirectly(and maybe unintentionally) man of all season has termed this website an APOSTATE blog and I guess “mentally diseased” as well.

    Michael has defended the jehovah’s witness organization from opposers and apostates. He has read the Walsh trial proceedings,the stone witness and Fred Franz trial proceedings as well and has exposed distortions created by opposers to many people. Guess I too have to quit commenting here and right my wrongs as well.

    Adios ex-brothers and sisters or should I say apostates.

    [NOTE: Edited by admin for clarity. And with that we bid adieu to another JW Apologist who likes being told what to believe and having his conscience dictated to him by the elderly fellows that rule over the millions of sheeple that follow their every word through the pages of the Watchtower.]

      (Quote)

    • miscreant droid says:

      Resorting to name calling? C’mon Patrick. Many here, including myself still attend meetings. The instruction to avoid these sites comes from the Organization, not Jehovah. Please, put Jehovah’s word ahead of the Organization’s.

      Your brother in Christ, MD

        (Quote)

    • Chris says:

      In response, though I don’t expect a reply Patrick.
      The fact that you think that JW are the only ones who reject the Trinity as unscriptural is evidence of your indoctrination. The Trinity has been debunked my many individuals and groups long before CT Russell, and continues to be rejected by Christadelphians and others today.
      So you are implying that JW are the source of all truth and if we still hold to some beliefs that JW hold to then we are beholding to them. What utter delusion!
      We are interested in what the Bible says Patrick. You may find it hard to believe but the WTS did not write the Bible.
      The sad thing is you worship them not Jehovah, and you play lip service to Jesus as the Head of the Congregation.
      If the GB told you the Moon was made of cheese, you would say what kind? If they told you Gouda, you would say OK.
      If they changed their minds several years later and said it was actually made of Gruyere, you would say “thank-you for the new light”.
      I encourage you to read your Bible Patrick, it may surprise you what it actually says. But sadly I fear that you have allowed them to become masters of your faith and have become dull in your hearing. In the future you will look back and realize you have been duped by Satan into residing in a house built on sand. When the WTS collapses you will have nowhere to go because you don’t recognize that Jesus is your Master.

        (Quote)

  76. Frank says:

    With Patrick’s colourful comments in mind, all here might want to consider this truism by a man who knew what he was talking about:

    George Orwell, esteemed author and writer of the acclaimed novel 1984, said that:

    “A totalitarian state is in effect a theocracy, and its ruling caste, in order to keep its position, has to be thought of as infallible. But since, in practice, no one is infallible, it is frequently necessary to rearrange past events in order to show that this or that mistake was not made, or that this or that imaginary triumph actually happened.”

    From Frank

      (Quote)

  77. Chris says:

    We studied 1984 at high school in 1983 (oddly enough)
    What an excellent quote.
    If only I had joined the dots earlier.
    No regrets really, the benefits of a Bible education when applied stand on their own regardless of religion.

      (Quote)

    • Rupunzelsawake says:

      We must be of the same vintage Chris. I do believe I studied 1984 in the same year….Was it fourth form? Lol!!! I believe Patrick and Michael left because we made so much sense, and it was frightening to them. We’ve all been there. It is terrifying when it seems your whole world is being pulled from under your feet. Let’s pray for them. I wonder if they will report on each other to the elders. They should if they are being obedient to their masters. I can hear the disfellowshipping wheels turning already.

        (Quote)

      • Chris says:

        Ahh the eighties.
        Big hair and shoulder pads…not me personally you understand :)
        For me it was the 3rd Form if memory serves. We had an English teacher who had traveled extensively and if we were disinterested in the days study we could side track him by asking about his travels. Fascinating bloke.
        I know my commenting doesn’t always convey that I feel sorry for the likes of M & P as I find the paralysis they suffer from to be quite irritating.
        I really must learn to season my comments instead of trying to shake them. I do deeply resent being called an apostate though.

          (Quote)

        • Rupunzelsawake says:

          I had a sixth form geography teacher like that….tall stories about Turkish bath-houses! Totally enthralling! I had the big earrings to go with the shoulder pads, and of course the colours were garishly bright. I did some quick calculations and I think I probably studied the book in 1980. Oh…memories…….

            (Quote)

    • JJ says:

      Same here Chris- I loved going through that book in high school. I wish that I too had connected the dots sooner but then that would alter so many other aspects of my life that I wouldn’t want that either lol.

        (Quote)

  78. Frank says:

    Yes, Chris. I feel very sorry for those who have to discover after many years of enslavement to the will of other humans that it’s all been rather a waste of good life.

    What Orwell captures with his quote is the WTBTS (whom the writer probably never knew about)is the desperate need to keep up a pretense. This is becoming harder and harder with the Internet now. All power to TTATT.

    It has occurred to me for quite a while now that merely asserting fallibility when the pooh his the fan loses all worth as a philosophy when simultaneously being told in the Watchtower that all JW adherents must accept the word of infallible men as if it directly came from God himself. It defies human intelligence to believe that God feeds false information to his field-marshals and yet is the God of perfect morality and truth.

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  79. Frank says:

    The reason why Orwell’s 1984 is so relevant today is that it reminds us that holding two contradictory thoughts such as “God is perfect and only speaks truth” and “the GB is both fallible and infallible” is typical religious Dystopian double-think. Expunging inconvenient truths from an embarrassing past, too, is helpful. Harder to do nowadays, of course.

    The purpose? Don’t think, just obey. To obey is far easier than researching. Just trust, don’t think.

    Fortunately, most here are no longer that naive.

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  80. Frank says:

    Actually, imagine if the thin veneer of secularism was removed from the environment and we only had WTBTS religious authority, would we expect the reality of the world to be ultimately ethically indistinguishable from 16th century Spain?

    This was Christopher Hitchens’ gift, as an Orwellian expert, he had discerned that political and religius environments differ very littlle when it came to human belief. Love of man becomes love of state. The state becomes God and theocracy becomes autocracy.

    If you have trouble with this concept merely comtemplate the loving judicial system JWs enjoy.

      (Quote)

    • miscreant droid says:

      HaHa. Thanks for that quote, Frank. 1984 hasn’t been on my reading list for nearly ten years, but I think it’s time to dust it off and give it another perusal.

      To All: I’m as aware as any of you that it’s frustrating to be bullied by the illogical arguments that some of the active publishers are posing, but, as the saying goes, you catch more flies with honey. I’d rather not discourage those whom we might awaken by warning them of their ‘sinful’ behavior for posting on this site in the first place (even when they’re being condescending). Let’s remember Paul’s advice to season our words with salt. We may no longer put the Org. ahead of Jah’s word, but sometimes we (myself included) still put our egos ahead of Jah’s instruction.

      Please forgive my preachiness, as I’m as guilty as any of an occasionally sour comment.

        (Quote)

      • JJ says:

        Good point MD. We remind them that they are “breaking the GB rules” by being here but at the same time we want them to wake up to TTATT.

        I’m glad you are here bro.

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  81. Frank says:

    Miscreant Droid, we are in danger of becoming fast friends if you keep this up. What I like here is that we can lift the conversation with a variety of viewpoints, even if we differ about how each of our worlds is perceived.

    As you may have guessed, I enjoy coming here. All power to intelligence and thinking-ability breaking the yoke of religious intolerance and brain-cell destruction!

    Frank

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  82. Frank says:

    What I find particularly interesting is that there is a lot of criticism aimed at history-revisionists; yet, the WTBTS has turned their own history-revision into a fine art. Of course, they call it “updating their history.” Yeah, right.

    But one thing is for sure – the victors always write the history! Just look at WTBTS ‘history’ on display at headquarters: where is there mention of the occult genesis or the shady business dealings of the second president? This is but the tip of the iceberg.

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  83. Rupunzelsawake says:

    Has anyone watched the three videos by Dallywally, “The Watchtower and Occult Connections”. Wow! It’s incredible that occult symbols have appeared in early WT publications,(on the covers, eg winged sun disc) and are featured in some of the buildings they use….winged sun discs, masonic symbols, sun rays, compass rose, etc. JWs are so offended by a crucifix atop a building, but what about these occult symbols right under their noses? If I was still a JW this would totally freak me out!

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  84. Rupunzelsawake says:

    Didn’t know where to put this. My son found it. It seems JWs view the Elim church as a “faith based organisation”. Mmmmm…..and I thought they were supposed to be Satan’s seed, weeds for the fire, part of the harlot, Babylon the Great! What do you think?
    http://www.stuff.co.nz/aucklan.....-Elim-buys

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    • Chris says:

      2 more examples that I know of.
      The original Bethel in Auckland was sold to the Adventists.
      The old Avonhead KH in Christchurch was sold to the exclusive Brethren 5 or 6 years ago.
      So, they are quite happy to take money from ‘Babylon the Great’ when it suits them, yet I still remember an elder who had a painting business being stood down and publicly reproved because he painted a Catholic school.
      “Woe to you scribes & pharisees” and “hypocrites” comes to mind.

        (Quote)

  85. Chris says:

    Maybe I am being petty, but after going to the trouble to have a formal dedication of all these buildings do they now need to un-dedicate them?
    The fact that they dedicated them in the first place is somewhat pompous don’t you think?
    Another example of them seeking to mimic aspects of Jewish temple worship and create a formal structure which they are the regulators of.

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  86. Chris says:

    Also, while I am in the mood to type.
    I remembered a quote I found a couple of years ago in which Pioneers, Bethelites and others were recognized as part of, wait for it…an “Order of Special Full-time Servants of Jehovah”
    So they are a religious order and they are special. Sounds like a class distinction to me!
    Their very own Jesuit Order minus the cassocks.
    Secretly they just love all the hierarchical titles and formality, while condemning others for doing the same.
    If we really sat down and listed all the various titles and descriptors they use in all aspects of their worship we would be surprised how many there are.
    I will be quiet now :)

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  87. Frank says:

    Hi Chris. One of our old KHs too was sold to a church. Doesn’t the Bible say…”Touch nothing unclean” regarding ‘false religion’? Money’s different, of course. And yet the WBTS will not accept donations from lotteries. Go figure.

    Again, this is Orwellian double-think. It’s called hypocrisy in the Bible.

    Frank

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  88. Rupunzelsawake says:

    Come to think of it. Our old KH was sold to the Samoan Assembly of God. Do you think the titles and rituals are somewhat reminiscent of those in Freemasonry? ie. “order of”

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  89. Frank says:

    What I meant obviously was donations from the winnings from lotteries.

    At http://www.hedgefundintelligen.....entId=9679 we find “Watch Tower Society” registered as attending a conference on hedge funds.

    Putting aside double-think about investments and ‘laying a foundation in Satan’s world’, aren’t hedge funds a private investment from which tax is legally extracted?

    If the WTBTS is registered as a non-profit charity, would they declare these investments and have them taxed, I wonder.

    Frank

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  90. Charles says:

    Nice defense put up by Michael and Patrick(I am not a jw). I find no fault with the organisation disfellowshipping people who no longer share the same views with them. From my point of view I think it is necessary to remove stubborn ones from the congregation so that they will not begin to cause divisions amongst each other.

    Michael asked some questions that none of you have been able to answer. You just ignored it and started remembering old memories which I think is quite disingenuous of you.

    Chris why are you still attending meetings if you no longer like the organisation? No wonder apostle Paul warned of false brothers, and Chris the jw are one of the most active antitrinitarian groups in the world so don’t accuse Michael of being indoctrinated. So now Chris where do you get your info against the trinity ? Are you Jew,binitarian,oneness Pentecostal or member of one group that hates the trinity

    The issue of God’s name been used by jw should not be a topic for discussion in this place. There are bibles that have used the form Jehovah even though Yahweh could be the most correct Among the forms or should we stop using “Jesus” since the nearest pronunciation of Christ is yeshua? Obviously your answer would be no. Jehovah’s witnesses have not demoted Jesus in anyway. Even Jesus said “I have made your name known to them and I will make it known” this means Jesus made God’s name known in his time,definitely his apostles must have followed suit. What do we infer from this? Jesus put EMPHASIS on his Father and his name. Of course we should acknowledge jesus but in reality it is “to the glory of God the Father” thus jehovah’s witnesses have not demoted Christ,they honor the son as they honor the father. Moreover rupunzel, stephen did not pray to Jesus, he only “appealed” to Christ, I will prove this next time.

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    • JJ says:

      Welcome to the site Charles. In the three years that we have been up and running these topics have come up dozens of times and I personally have written articles addressing them. You are free to look them up and do critical research. I hope you will be willing to do that since it sounds like the Watchtower Organization mindset and thought control techniques are already taking root in your mind.

      Have you been to JWFacts.com? That is the best site out there for someone to simply find out what TTATT is and see how the WT has twisted numerous doctrines and theologies into their personal traditions. They along with all the rest of the fundamentalist, hierarchical movements demand strict adherence to man-made creeds and that is what Jesus was speaking out against time and again to the Pharisees.

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    • Rupunzelsawake says:

      Hi Charles. Welcome back. I was only quoting the bible that JWs themselves use. The NWT states in it’s footnote for Acts 7:59 that “appeal” could be rendered, “invocation or prayer”. As a JW I never noticed that, but if I had I would’ve raised my eyebrows!

      When I speak about Christ’s name being demoted, I am talking about all the places in the NT where “Lord” has been replaced by “Jehovah”. An example of this is Romans 10:13. This has not been done consistently because in some verses the context is clearly referring to Jesus and not Jehovah. Given what Acts 4:12 says we must be careful to acknowledge Jehovah’s means for salvation.

      I admire Patricks last post. He made a dignified exit, rather than a cowardly one. I’m not sure what questions Michael asked that you are referring to.

      As a “never been a JW” are you familiar with disfellowshipping as practiced by JWs? A disfellowshipped person has NO CONTACT with any members of the church (including family) AT ANY TIME. The only exceptions are for practical purposes, eg.living in the same house, making arrangements for funerals, medical emergencies. It’s not like ex-communication where only your “spiritual” life is affected. The extreme shunning has lead some to dangerous behaviours, even suicide.

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  91. miscreant droid says:

    Hi Charles,

    Please let me point out to you that none of us joined up with the Organization of Jehovah’s Witnesses to be part of a “club”. We signed on because we believe that God has superior authority over all things, and the Org., at the time of our indoctrination, appeared to be offering a strong study program and deeper insights into the bible than other churches were. As we grew to recognize that portions of their program were doctrinal rather than bible based, we became concerned that God’s standards were being compromised.

    You may personally find no fault with a club that dismisses members for critical thinking, but that is the nature of clubs, not the nature of God. Our disagreement with the Org. is that we do not feel they recognize the Superiority of God, and instead maintain practices that go beyond what is written. If you think it ‘stubborn’ to side with God over men, then I would say you believe that Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, and even Christ Jesus were rightfully condemned for voicing God’s Truth.

    And, most importantly, the dismissal of members isn’t the same as getting kicked out of Walmart. Families are severely damaged by these practices.

    Forgive my tone if it sounds argumentative. I’m just enjoying the debate and mean no offense, my friend. Looking forward to your rebuttal-

    MD

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  92. Chris says:

    Hi Charles,
    I wholeheartedly agree with what JJ & MD have said.

    Dis-fellowshipping is scriptural. The application by JW is not. And there a number of excellent articles and comments on this site which highlight this fact. The reality is that dis-fellowshipping was carried out by the WHOLE congregation in the first century. Obviously the older men were involved, but the congregation was encouraged to “remove the wicked man from among yourselves” if he was unrepentant. Also when that individual proved repentant the congregation was encouraged to accept that one back in love. The obvious causes for disfellowshipping were adultery, fornication and so forth, and there are also examples of ones who were causing divisions and trouble. The elders were encouraged to go to great lengths to correct an erring individual according to scripture and the ‘law’ of Christ and it appears that dis-fellowshipping was a last resort.
    The star chamber/behind closed doors application practiced by the Watchtower Society is not according to Scripture. But in saying that, I am certain that there are many individuals today who have been dis-fellowshipped because it was necessary.
    Equally there are many thousands who have been thrown out without a fair hearing or because of corrupt application of scriptural principles by elders and personal grudges.

    Some things are obvious to any one picking up a Bible and reading for themselves. However if I had never really read the Bible and Catholic pointed out the Ten Commandments to me, and I then realized God’s standards on certain matters ,does that also mean I have to accept their teaching that the Pope is descended from Peter, or that Mary should be worshipped simply because they showed me the Ten Commandments?
    I no longer attend meetings and have not done so for several years. My wife still attends.
    I do NOT accept that the Watchtower Society was appointed by Jesus in 1919.
    I do NOT accept that Christ returned invisibly in 1914.
    I do NOT recognize the Governing Body as the Faithful and Discreet Slave
    I do NOT accept the Trinity, Hellfire, Immortality of the Soul and many other teachings
    I DO so on the basis of Scripture, not assertions by men that they are “God’s Channel of Communication on Earth today”
    Do you accept their claim?

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  93. Charles says:

    Chris, do you know one question Jesus followers asked him ? They said thus ” rabbi how do we know the sign of the time? , then he Jesus said thus ” you can study the changes in season of the environment but why is it that you can’t understand the time of the coming kingdom? There brothers from am noticing so far you are falling back into Christendom , if you listen to your conscience it would have told you why are backing out especially at this injury time , clearly you have notice most of the prophesies come to pass and you have seen for your self that it is true !!!

    For instance the prophesy concerning the false prophets, you see many people have read that particular verse in the scriptures yet today they still walk to them even saying blessed be the god of such prophet, don’t you know that even when people red those verses they said to themselves thus ” when the false prophets arise I not go to them” but due to the fact of lack of knowledge of the truth the reverse is the case and bible prophesies are being fulfilled !read 2 thess 2:9, 10. Matthew 24:24, so do not term the jw as false corse they do not emphases or perform great signs and wonders.

    Don’t think pat and mike left because they are afraid , notice their comment very well , would notice they tried to make you guys understand .

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  94. Charles says:

    Chris, do you know one question Jesus followers asked him ? They said thus ” rabbi how do we know the sign of the time? , then he Jesus said thus ” you can study the changes in season of the environment but why is it that you can’t understand the time of the coming kingdom? There brothers from what i am noticing so far you are falling back into Christendom , if you listen to your conscience it would have told you why are backing out especially at this injury time , clearly you have notice most of the prophesies come to pass and you have seen for your self that it is true !!!

    For instance the prophesy concerning the false prophets, you see many people have read that particular verse in the scriptures yet today they still walk to them even saying blessed be the god of such prophet, don’t you know that even when people red those verses they said to themselves thus ” when the false prophets arise I will not go to them” but due to the fact of lack of knowledge of the truth the reverse is the case and bible prophesies are being fulfilled !read 2 thess 2:9, 10. Matthew 24:24, so do not term the jw as false corse they do not emphases or perform great signs and wonders.

    Don’t think pat and mike left because they are afraid , notice their comment very well , would notice they tried to make you guys understand.

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  95. Chris says:

    Charles, for someone who is “not a jw” you are making a good effort to defend the comments of Michael & Patrick.
    Methinks you know them, are unbaptised or are studying with JW?
    I had difficulty understanding your comment but I think you are saying that because Jehovah’s Witnesses are not performing the great signs & wonders mentioned in Matt.24:24 then they cannot be false prophets?
    The biblical standard for identifying a false prophet is in Deut.18:20-22. And when we measure JW AND others against this standard then there can be no doubt that they have presumed to speak in Jehovah’s name, why they have even taken it upon themselves and declared themselves His witnesses.
    Bearing witness to God and Jesus is admirable and necessary for Christians. Declaring Bible truths and warnings is also vital. But when we go beyond the things written and declare ourselves to be appointed by God and entrusted with Jesus belongings without proof then don’t you think that would be somewhat presumptuous?
    If you read Matthew 7:22 you will see that many will claim to speak in Jesus name and do powerful works, but he will reject them. JW are not the only false prophets on Earth today and when the great tribulation does occur Satan and his demons will no doubt foster many to perform great signs and wonders to mislead the anointed. That tribulation has not started yet and so the measure of a false prophet must be based on what we can see now. Deut.18:20-22.
    So to reiterate my questions to you.
    Do you believe Jesus returned invisibly in 1914 and why?
    Do you believe the Watchtower Society was appointed by Jesus in 1919 and why?
    Do you believe that the Governing Body are the faithful and discreet slave of Matt.24:45-47 and why?
    Further to that, did Armageddon come in 1914,1925,1941,1975 as JW predicted?
    Simply saying that because JW do not appear to have performed great signs and wonders does not negate these false prophecies.
    They go to great lengths to minimise their own wrong doing while mocking others (such as Harold Camping for example)
    Don’t think for a moment that any of us here hate JW. We do not!
    We are trying to help them UNDERSTAND that the scriptural standard for approval by Jesus is not based on belonging to an organization, because giving your allegiance to a group of men is fraught with serious dangers.

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  96. Nosawaru says:

    Those are the 10 biggest liea ive ever heard…retard. I know the whole truth. I am one of them.

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    • JimmyG says:

      Hi Nosawaru. When you say “I am one of them”, are you referring to being a retard or a JW? Can I assume that the word “liea” is meant to be “lies’? If so, please list each of the 10 points and provide evidence from WT literature proving that they are ‘lies’. Just let me give you an example of how to prove whether the 10 points made are lies or not.

      Point no 1 is “Christ Jesus is not their mediator but the governing body/organization is.” Quotes from WT literature:

      “1 Timothy 2:5, referring to those then being taken into the new covenant for which Christ is “mediator.” So in this strict Biblical sense Jesus is the “mediator” only for anointed Christians”. w79 4/1 p31

      “The new covenant is not a loose arrangement open to all mankind. It is a carefully arranged legal provision involving God and anointed Christians…..The people of all nations who have the hope of everlasting life on earth benefit even now from Jesus’ services. Though he is not their legal Mediator, for they are not in the new covenant, he is their means of approaching Jehovah”. w89 8/15 pp 30 and 31

      “The Greater Moses, Jesus Christ, is not the Mediator between Jehovah God and all mankind. He is the Mediator between his heavenly Father, Jehovah God, and the nation of spiritual Israel, which is limited to only 144,000 members.
      In our time, millions of the “other sheep” are already benefiting from the ministry of the new covenant, as rendered by the anointed remnant under the Mediator, Jesus Christ”. ws pp 10 and 110

      These quotes confirm that Jesus is a mediator only to the ‘anointed’. He is not to the nearly 8 million ‘other sheep’. As far as the governing body (or the more vague term ‘organization’) is concerned, there are scores of WT references, particularly in recent years, apparently referring to the GB as an intermediary between Jehovah and the ‘other sheep’.

      It’s easy to call someone a name and then run away, not providing any evidence of your accusation “Those are the 10 biggest lies I’ve ever heard.” Please join the grown ups and enter the discussion, using reason and providing evidence for what you say.

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      • JJ says:

        Good questions Jimmy. If a person posts a comment and never backs it up with anything cogent then one has to wonder if they are simply an internet troll. More and more JW Apologists are beginning to try and “fight back” by coming to this site as well as my YouTube channel so it is not a surprise to receive the criticism.

        Nosawaru you are welcome to come here as often as you like, and ask real questions and add to the discussion. But calling people names and being insensitive to folks that are developmentally disabled is not welcomed here.

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  97. Frank says:

    Hi Jimmy. Just to let you know that there’s another comment on Governing Body.org in our discussion.

    Yes, JJ and JimmyG, it’s easy to give emotional responses to make oneself feel better, but is it truth?

    The WTBTS prides itself on being the only source of “God’s truth” here on Earth. If this is genuinely so, then support, both Biblical and scientific, should be easy for holders of this one truth. Instead we are called names, which is fine from my point-of-view as this proves that such people are merely persecutors of the genuine followers of Christ! Go for it, Nosawaru! I’ll hand you a spade every time!

    Frank

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  98. Nosawaru says:

    First of all I apologize for my rude comments earlier as I have a short temper when it comes to criticism of my God Jehovah and his organization. Starting off: 1.Jesus is our mediator but uses his governing body to communicate with us Jehovah’s direction for us. This is seen in 1 Timothy 2:5 a scripture you cited. TThs means Jesus is like a link between directing us on Earth what his Father Jehovah wants us to do.

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    • Frank says:

      I appreciate you apology, Nosawaru, as this lays a foundation for a sensible conversation.

      What I would ask you at this stage is: What scripture(s) would you use to support your belief that 1 Timothy 2:5 means that a group of imperfect men are sandwiched in between the mediator Christ and bear the authority to govern the entire lives of those professing to be the Great Crowd? Surely with truth this would be plainly stated as a Christian belief in unambiguous words in the Christian Greek Scriptures (NT).

      Also, as unambiguously stated by the Governing Body, why did they say that ‘strictly Christ is not the mediator for the Great Crowd’?

      Good on you, too for continuing to blog, thanks.

      Frank

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    • Rupunzelsawake says:

      Welcome to the site Nosawaru! I admire your desire to defend your beliefs at such a tender young age! That is so commendable. I just want to point out that we are not criticising our heavenly Father Jehovah here. Perhaps we do sound very critical of the organisation, but that is because so many of us have been hurt badly by it. When you do some research you discover that the organisation today is completely different to what Brother Russell had in mind. It has become the hierarchical type of organisation with centralised authority, just like the catholic church which he condemned. The governing body has become just like the pope. I used to be a catholic before I became a JW and the parallels are frightening. Jesus is our head, not some men, and we are directly accountable to him. Over the years the governing body, who admit they are only imperfect men, has demanded we believe and teach all their interpretations of the scriptures, even when these are wrong. This means that sometimes we have to ignore our own consciences! Paul wrote that we must never force our conscience upon our brother, but this is what the governing body do. They disfellowship any who do not agree with them, thus causing division. We should all be able to stay united despite differences in opinion…..being united by love, “the perfect bond of union”. But the governing body does not permit that. I would like to recommend a video on youtube looking at how simple Christianity evolved into the hierarchical structures we have today. This same brother has made lots of good videos and I recommend all of them! Here’s the link:

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  99. Nosawaru says:

    As well we rely on Jehovah’s Holy Spirit which is why we pray and ask for it to strengthen us throughout trials and tribulations.

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  100. Nosawaru says:

    The part about the Watchtower is not the whole truth we completely trust in Jehovah and his som Christ Jesus. We only use the Watchtower as something to understand the bible more. For themost part we ask God for understanding of the scriptures.

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  101. Nosawaru says:

    Again I apologize for my rude comments earlier as I am only 12 and still immature

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  102. Chris says:

    Hi Nosawaru,
    I started studying the Bible with Jehovah’s Witnesses when I was 14 and found the discovery of many biblical truths invigorating, so I can understand your desire to defend the things you hold to be true.
    I have made more than a few harsh comments on this site that I have regretted but I am reassured that most of us here have been around long enough to understand the value of forgiveness.
    You are after all, trying to defend your faith which is commendable.
    If I can presume to offer you any counsel then it would be this,
    “Do not put your trust in nobles or the son earthling man to whom no salvation belongs” Psalm 146:3
    As you rightly pointed out in 1 Tim. 2:5 Christ is our mediator so we need to be careful when men, even if they are fellow Christians, ask us to give our obedience to an organization to gain salvation.
    By doing so they are actually inserting themselves between us and Christ.

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  103. Nosawaru says:

    The governing body has been appointed by Christ and his father Jehovah God. They do not make the choices but Jehovah does, they didn’t appoint themselves but as part oof the anointed Christians they are also a channel to provide us with God’s information.

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  104. Nosawaru says:

    We also are not giving obedience to an organization but to Jehovah’s instruction through HIS organization.

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  105. Nosawaru says:

    Ephesians 5:23 explains that Christ is the head of our congregations everywhere. He has the most important part in making decisions apart from the part of Jehovah to watch over the whole organization and make sure that it’s running smoothly.

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    • Chris says:

      How do you feel about Jesus Nosawaru?
      Do you approach Jehovah in prayer through him?
      Is it your expectation that he will mediate on your behalf and apply his sacrifice for your sin?

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  106. Frank says:

    Hi Nosawaru.

    As it is clear you are ‘one out of the box’; a young and unusually intelligent person, I would like to honour your courage in ‘making sure of all things.’

    You obviously believe that God solely communicates through the Governing Body through Christ. There is no doubt that the Governing Body believes this gives them sole authority over Christ’s earthly secondary-class followers.

    Do you therefore believe that Paul’s words (1 Timothy 2:5)under inspiration of the Holy Spirit are not absolute; that they are flexible enough as to future-proof later-occurring organisational changes?

    Notice Paul doesn’t qualify the statement. If you don’t see Paul’s words as absolute, why would he use the word ‘man’ and not ‘Christ’s brothers’ if there were future organisation revelations?

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  107. Reader says:

    Dear Nosawaru.
    The GB are the F&DS?
    They definitely have put splendid efforts into feeding the sheep.
    OK fine, always liked the NWT.
    But what about the second qualifier “at the proper time”.
    How do they know they have fed at the right time, given their impetuous record on dates?
    Some of the date ‘food’ has really proved sour and stumbling to many, and very embarrassing in conversation.

    Note in illustrations of judgement and reward given by Jesus, the servant is so often wrong about how WELL they were doing; “Lord Lord” & 7 Congregations in Revelation. Self congratulation Scripturally is a very dangerous sign, take note.

    Learn to keep ‘your counsel to yourself’, this is not a rebuke. If you don’t know the saying ask around the older folks.

    As we humans do not know the ‘times’ then none of us can know if we have met any datelines can we?

    All the best.
    B

    ps, Let us wait on the master to give rewards.

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  108. Nosawaru says:

    Matthew 24:45-47. The faithful and discreet slave is the governing body and us or the other sheep are the domestics. The food we are to be given at the proper time is a spiritual sense of food such as the Watchtower Awake magazines as well as other publications. I will try my hardest to answer any questions you may have.

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  109. JimmyG says:

    Hi Nosawaru. I have a son who is about the same age as you. He is very intelligent, like you. He’s struggling to come to terms with why his middle aged father, who was an elder, no longer goes to the meetings or goes out in field service. It’s a long story…….

    In the context of what we’re discussing here, there is no scriptural evidence that puts a body of men between us and Jehovah. Your comments mirror what you have read in WT publications and heard from the platform. ‘Make the truth your own’ is repeated over and over, even sung in one of the songs. The WT only permits you to do your research from their literature- well you know, that dates back to the 1870’s and you will be surprised by what you’ll find there, if you dare.

    When my son’s ready, I will encourage him to widen his search for truth. Hopefully you will do the same.

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  110. Nosawaru says:

    May I ask politely, what makes you say that?

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  111. JimmyG says:

    Thanks for being polite. Can you be specific- are you referring to my comment about ‘widening out in search for truth?’

    If so, I am saying that the WT is not the source of all bible truth. No one nor any organisation has ‘the truth’, in my opinion. But a good place to start is examining your own religion objectively. To start with, maybe you could visit the ‘JW Facts’ website- you can go to it from this site by clicking on the link.

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  112. Nosawaru says:

    Again the organization isn’t the source of bible truth nor is the WT we get all our information from our God,Jehovah.

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  113. Frank says:

    Like you, Nosawaru, as a full member of the congregation of Jehovah’s Witnesses, I am part of the Great Crowd. I must congratulate you for your being brave in reasoning this way. And you are right, we do get our information; knowledge, from Jehovah. I also want to show respect for your age and your viewpoint. Wasn’t Jesus 12 when he went to the teachers in temple?

    I hold dear all the Governing Body’s Scriptually-based doctrines. My problem is that many of my brothers and sisters would be wary of me because I simultaneously hold SOME differing viewpoints which I base on research that I have done, based on wanting to ‘make sure of the more important things.’

    If someone wanted to know objectively whether there are aliens who regularly abduct humans from Earth, would it be wise only to go to Alien Abduction groups and Steven Spielberg movies for the answers?

    Maybe the time isn’t right now for you to see things that might disturb you, you are only 12, like JimmyG’s son; but try to examine claims for what they are and how they appear and don’t be afraid to ask questions, even uncomfortable ones for your parents, or elders, and examine the answers they give – before you are baptised. A lot will change after ‘signing on the bottom line,’ so to speak. Meanwhile be at peace in your views; there’s time enough yet.

    If you have any questions, however, please ask them, and, by the way, review and question ANY answer you get from people on this site. View all things critically. As Fox Mulder once said, “I want to believe,” and “the truth is out there.” Yes, but there is a lot of ‘truth’ out there.’

    Be wise.

    Frank

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  114. Nosawaru says:

    I have been a baptized brother in the congregation since the age of 11. Still I find it hard to disagree with the teachings given,all the same there may be some incorrect teachings not yet found. Though I think its best to let the Governing body handle that.

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    • Chris says:

      Nosawaru, if you did discover an incorrect teaching would you approach the elders for an explanation? No doubt you would, as many of us here have done. The problem we have found is the explanations don’t fit or make sense when compared with scripture.
      An example that I encountered was the explanation of the other sheep mentioned at John 10:16. In the context of all the surrounding scriptures Jesus is clearly talking about the Gentiles who would become Christians after the sheep of the Jewish flock had been preached to first. And that is exactly what happened after Pentecost. Read the whole chapter without bias and see what conclusion you come to.
      The governing body says that the scripture was referring to a group of Christians from 1935 onward and that is how we get our little flock- great crowd teaching.
      This is a case of making the scripture fit a belief, not a scripture revealing a truth. So for our part we cannot accept teachings like this because it is not a Bible truth but a doctrine of men. And we know how Jesus views those who teach commandments of men as doctrines of God.
      Nosawaru, your relationship with Jehovah is through one door and that door is Jesus. There is no second door that we also have to go through, or another way into God’s favour. When you begin to understand this greatest of truths you will understand what Jesus meant when he said ” you will know the truth and the truth will set you free” The truth is NOT an organization.
      Please take the time to view the link Rapunzel mentioned , it’s very good. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHCWsD3JRhg

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  115. Frank says:

    Could I just make a few observations about the way people here, though with good motive, are doing what we shouldn’t with Nosawaru. We should all remember he is 12 years old. Please try to remember what being 12 is like and show him the respect he deserves.

    No young mind should be exposed to such confusion. Please let Noswaru ask his own questions if he has any. He is not a sounding board for everyone’s personal understanding of Scripture. Nos need to find his own way by asking personal questions.

    Also please don’t suggest web sites which could create a conflict of interest in his conscience.

    Frank

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    • southranger@gmail.com says:

      Frank, it’s trifle condescending to suggest that Nosawaru is incapable of considering an alternative viewpoint or that somehow his conscience will be conflicted. The conflict arises when we start with a wrong belief then have to reconcile it later in life. He has visited this website after all and is free to consider or disregard what we say. Jesus was 12 when he stayed behind at the Temple to immerse himself in spiritual things. And there are a number of accounts of the disciples remembering what Jesus said to them well after his death but at the time they didn’t understand what he meant.
      My only hope, as it is yours, is that Nosawaru will be like the Beroeans and “carefully examine these things to see if they are so”. And as a father of two teenagers I can tell you their minds not as fragile as we think they are. If I had been able to consider spiritual things from a more even footing when I started studying with JW’s at the age of 14 then I may have come to a spiritually, emotionally and mentally better place at 17 instead of my 40’s. However your point is well taken and we can only wish Nosawaru the best on his path.

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  116. Nosawaru says:

    I have expressed my opinion but in the end it’s up to each of us to make the right choice (whatever it is.) I may come to this site every now and then though to ask questions or give opinions.Until then I think I will continue on the path I’m on; the path to everlasting life.

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  117. Frank says:

    And thus you should, Nosawaru, though please question what you are learning at the KH, here, or anywhere.

    Look forward to hearing from you again.

    Frank

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  118. Frank says:

    Southranger@gmail.com, I never suggested or implied that Nosawaru is incapable of understanding another point of view. You must believe yourself to be in possession of truth and that is what this young mind needs to know. No doubt like others here you consider it your Christian duty to ride, like Jesus, in on your white horse and rescue the innocent.

    Have you thought for a moment why Nosawaru came here in the first place? It is important that he see that people here are not unthinking crazed demon-possessed as JWs are taught.

    Nosawawru must be the driver on his own journey. There will be plenty of time for disappointment as all thinking people find out.

    Frank

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  119. Ana says:

    My dad used to be a JW, he seemed to change his life around. Until they disfellowshipped him and since then it seemed like they ruined his life. I havent seen him in a year in a half and no word from him. I don’t like them knocking on my door I don’t like the fact that they can’t respect others religion. This sounds good to put on my door.

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  120. Nosawaru says:

    They only disfellowship for the safety of others.

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  121. danielB says:

    Nosawaru , excuse me please for chiming in on this thought . But consider how many times the society has said that disfellowshipping is also done for the one who is disfellowshipped , i.e. , to make an effort to shame the person with a godly repentance in view . Do you recall this other reason ?

    bro dan

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    • danielB says:

      But unfortunately , there has been a tremendous amount of inept oversight by the elders in this vital area of oversight by the overseers . I am certain that you could hear over a million past and present Jehovah’s Witnesses testify to this fact ; if they only could .

      Also , consider that the “safety” of the flock is better found here than sitting in a kingdom hall . Could this be possible ? . . .

      In Christ,
      bro dan

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  122. Rupunzelsawake says:

    Hi again young brother Nosawaru! Have you seen the video “The Prodigal Son Returns” released last year? It is very well made. But did you notice that the bad association came mainly from inside the congregation? (Brother Al) Why was that? Sadly, those practicing wrong-doing hide what they are doing because they don’t want to be disfellowhipped and be cut off completely from their families and friends. If a person does not want to live by Jehovah’s moral code they should just be able to leave. The disfellowshipping arrangement, that JWs practice, keeps wrongdoers inside the congregation. That’s a new thought isn’t it?

    What you may find hard to believe Nosawaru, is that many people are disfellowshipped, not for wrongdoing, but because they conscientiously object to a teaching that they believe is not scriptural. It is because they love “truth” that they were disfellowshipped. Many here fall into that category.

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  123. Frank says:

    Nosawaru says:
    November 9, 2013 at 7:13 pm

    “They only disfellowship for the safety of others.”

    Hi Nosawaru. Yes,you are completely justified in saying this and all organisations need to protect themselves from deliberate wrongdoers. With Biblical crimes such as fornication and adultery, this is nearly always open-and-shut as either the sin was committed or not.

    What of the charge of apostasy though? I have studied a Scottish Watchtower Judicial case about a brother by the name of Matthew Barrie who was accused of apostasy. He, like all others subjected to this system has his case “heard” behind closed doors. He was disfellowshipped almost purely on hearsay. I transcribed the case and wrote a thesis in which I found at least 21 ethical violations, many of which were human rights violations. The only way Matthew could get a fair hearing was by making his own information available to the public.

    Unlike secular courts, congregations will never know what was behind the decision of a three-man-committee to remove the “privilege” (actually a human right) of fellowship of the disfellowshipped family member from other believing members.

    Some of the ways to achieve this were to remove basic rights such as:

    1 An automatic decision of the court that the accused is guilty as charged and he must prove he is not. Secular courts use “innocent until proved guilty.”

    2 The accused is not allowed to have someone represent them. The accused might include sisters and children.

    3 The accused cannot refuse to answer questions of the committee. This is called in secular courts The Right to Silence. This violates the Bible’s law that a person can only be convicted “AT THE MOUTH of two witnesses.”

    4 Hearsay can be accepted as evidence. This also violates the same Biblical law.

    These are just a few of the 21 I found.

    So, Nosawaru, it is not the noble view that doctrinal purity is beneficial and protects the congregation, but the methods used to ensure enforced unity.

    Frank

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  124. Charles says:

    High five to norsawaru ! In support of him the governing body does not spring forth the truth on their own , after all you all know we are all born into adamic sin therefore what truth shall be from mere man ? But because we say that gods word is truth therefore that is were all truth prevail from , then also the governing body does well as to interpret it and feed the sheep in what is written of the scriptures .

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  125. Patrick says:

    Nosawaru indeed you are indeed a fine young witness of jehovah,keep this up and in the end you will turn out to be a great defender of jehovah’s witnesses.

    May i suggest you leave this board as regards your age. You are dealing with ex brothers who are way older and sharper than you,let adult jw’s deal with adult ex-jw’s.

    When i studied bible with jw’s,i was adviced by a well meaning friend to do research on the history of the organisation on the internet. I came across the organisation alleged false “prophecies” as many call it,the douglas walsh trial,the stone witness saga and others. At first i was shaken and began to question the decision i had taken to be a member of jehovah’s witnesses,but thank God due to more research i found the real truth. The organisation did not prophesy,but only interpreted old prophecies,many jw-hate websites often misrepresent facts,selectively quoting old watchtower magazines. This and many more encouraged my resolve to join them,so you too move on the faith

    if you have question bothering you,you could do well to ask knowledgeable brothers they can help,like on the issue of the “other sheep”

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  126. Patrick says:

    It is funny when ex-jw’s boast of a new found joy in christ,yet they devote most of their time attacking their former associates instead of focusing on their new found relationship with their christ.

    When people leave the organisation,they plunge themselves into the darkness and schisms of christendom. A situation whereby a brother becomes a oneness pentecostal and another a trinitarian,haven’t they become enemies in terms of their doctrine? The answer is yes. Christendom and apostates boast of a unity in christ jesus,despite other doctrinal differences,but go and ask a binitarian,he will tell you trinitarians worship the wrong jesus,and ask a oneness pentecostal he will equally tell you that their view of christ is correct while others are wrong,how laughable indeed

    jehovah’s witnesses maintain a unified of christ and are also united in their doctrines,although some call it touted unity[which is simply not true]. We show love to each other,help each other not minding the racial or cultural background.

    The main beef of apostates is that they were disfellowshiped. Sometimes apostates make it seem as if disagreeing with the organisation automatically puts one in line for expulsion,which is not true,i do know that elders try to CORRECT the thinking of the deviant brother,but if he remains unrepentant he is immediately removed from the congregation. Nosawaru you can visit the library in your kingdom hall,or ask your congregation elder for more info on disfellowshipment

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  127. Rupunzelsawake says:

    Patrick, with all due respect you do not know what you are talking about. I demanded the elders disfellowship me in line with organsiational policies. One of them told me he did not want to do it. Another told me everything I said made sense. When I earlier presented the elders with a letter outlining my concerns they could not refute them and said, “The organisation has many flaws”. They were at a loss to “correct” me because what I said was true and scriptural. Some of the things they had no knowledge about, like Malawi and Mexico. The only reason they had to disfellowship me was, “We have this idea and you have other ideas”. IDEAS!!! That did not say it was because I said anything unscriptural. Because I had a few different “ideas” I had this choice put before me, “Resign from the club or get kicked out”. That is according to the “club rules”. (These were the actual words of the elder.) I was not teaching anybody…in fact I had stopped attending meetings already. So, yes, you can be disfellowshipped for only having different ideas. Why don’t you try it? By the way, I do not subscribe to the mainstream views of Christendom. Out of your ignorance you make many assumptions about what people believe. You can not dogmatically categorise people the way you do. I would suggest your Bible study has not been very thorough, and that you should do more so as to develop the mind of Christ. The Pharisees were guilty of religious pride and arrogantly elevated themselves above their fellow Jews, thinking themselves to be superior. Christ taught humility, and putting the interests of another ahead of our own. Take care brother that you are not developing these Pharisaical traits, as you will be judged the way you are judging, and you will be measured the way you measure out. For your sake, I hope you are perfect! I hope you can stand 100% behind the everchanging “new light” you are taught. Otherwise I fear for you.

    Please don’t insult the people posting here by negating their feelings and experiences. I disagree with you where you say JWs have true unity. They are only unified in that they let other imperfect humans dictate to them their thoughts, and even their consciences. The scriptures say we must worship Jehovah our God with “our whole mind”, not leave it up to someone else. We must “work out our own salvation with fear and trembling”, not leave it up to someone else. We have been warned about false teachers and shepherds that will seduce the unwary with their smooth counterfeit words…and will mislead even the chosen ones, if possible. We have to carefully scrutinise what these self-professed “shepherds” say, and observe their “fruits”. We here have done that and found the GB, throughout the history of the organisation, sorely in want. The thing that disturbs me most is the wanton disregard for the suffering inflicted upon the sheep through the ever changing “wind of teaching by means of the trickery of men” (Eph 4:14) Jehovah’s holy spirit would not direct the promotion of untruth! Especially if that untruth cost the lives of the sheep! PEOPLE SUFFER AND DIE!!! Does that mean nothing to you? If you can shrug this off, then I suggest you do not have a proper view of the people whom Jehovah loves so much.

    Have you ever considered Patrick, that it is the GB behaving in an apostate manner? They go “beyond the things written” in the scriptures. They cause division in the body of Christ through their intolerance of the differences in individual’s consciences. Instead of accommodating others in a spirit of love, as Christ and his early disciples taught, they seek to “cut off” any who disagree with them…thus causing division. LOVE UNITES….NOT LAW!!! Christians are a “free people” no longer under law, as the Jews were. It’s funny you talk about us here attacking our “former associates”. That is not true. I love my former brothers and sisters, but I see their minds have been stolen from them by “ravenous wolves”. My beef is with the GB only.. and the one who is behind them. We here are the ones being persecuted! We are the ones who have been publicly slandered and called every vile name under the sun! We are the ones enduring reproaches.

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  128. Patrick says:

    Rapunzel i do know indeed what i am speaking about because I have witnessed one myself. No doubt the elders did not want to lose you because of your great service to jehovah’s work. Anyway it is still good that they disfellowshipped you since you willingly asked for it.

    Also the mexico and malawi issue are really no new news. Your elders did not have any idea of it,that was why they reluctantly disfellowshipped you. I questioned a brother on the issue and he readily help me break it down,so don’t feel so happy that they begged you to stay.

    Indeed the main beef of many apostates(excluding you though, as your case is quite different) is that they were disfellowshipped. The funny thing is that it is the works of former members,their videos,writings that hardens me as a jehovah’s witness. I have come across former members during my field ministry,when we start discussing they begin to vent their emotions on me and my preaching mate,the usual topics are the supposed false prophecies,the child protection policy e.t.c.. Suprisingly disfellowshipping does work,as a fair number do return.

    The GB is indeed an instrument in jehovah’s hand,as they have been successful in keeping the ever expanding congregations of jehovah’s witnesses united worldwide. Although many claim this unity is forced, which is not true. Also jehovah’s witnesses are allowed to have differences in opinion on matters of diet,sports so as long as they dont violate bible principles. However when it comes to doctrinal issues there is no room for unrepentant difference in opinion,you accept it or leave it. Now rapunzel why did paul demand hymaenaeus and philetus to be disfellowshipped? Weren’t they free? Were they still under the law? No doubt paul may have loved them,but they were a threat to the doctrinal unity of the congregation. Jw’s follow that model,inasmuch as we love our dissenting brothers since paul said we should not view them as enemies,we remove them because of the threat they pose to the unity of the congregation.

    When you speak of “flaws”are you trying to tell me they must be perfect in every policy or direction? Your answer will be obviously no. The organisation claims to be spirit- directed no doubt,but nevertheless like the apostles they have made mistakes and that does not disqualify one being used by God. The GB is not apostate since they did not alienate themselves from any particular organisation,and neither do they spend time critcising their former affiliates,that’s if they really have any. You might respond by saying the organisation criticises other organisations like catholics and protestants,if so you could call the apostles apostates,because like jesus they criticised their former jewish brothers for erroneously holding on to already abolished laws and decrees,which is quite characteristic of other religions who have promoted God-dishonouring doctrines.

    So far so good,i have not seen anything that will make me leave the organisation,i accept its biblical policies(even though you all may not agree with the term i used here),teachings as i firmly believe they are biblically based. You guys spend time critcising your former brothers,and rapunzel if you really love your former brothers,why would you call their erroneous speculations,false prophecy? You might reply that you do not do so,but check many anti-jw websites and you will see the label false prophecy. Keep on writing you all and you only keep on hardening my faith. Moreover i am not being mind-controlled,i am perfectly aware of my actions.

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    • JJ says:

      Patrick you are quite good at regurgitating what is found in past and present issues of the Watchtower. We are quite familiar with these arguments here. In response I would like to pose one question to you that was asked of me by a householder when I was out pioneering one afternoon many years ago:

      “Do you always agree with everything that is printed in the Watchtower?”

      I look forward to your honest answer on this question brother.

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  129. Patrick says:

    Rapunzel who is persecuting you and your group,that is just your fantasy. The organisation has no anti-apostate blog to refute the charges you make against them,moreover apostates are hardly discussed among us,we rarely even utter the term apostate. This site says it does not aim at beating their former associates,but from what i have seen YOUR main aim is to turn the minds of people against the organisation. You want us to leave and join you in bashing the organisation. Many of you don’t get it that if we allow you to flourish in the congregation,disunity would be the unavoidable end. The bible says this men will “speak twisted things” in other words they will be responsible for the apostasy within the association. What was the reason for this falling away: the apostates were ALLOWED TO REMAIN in the association,thus their distorted truth gradually became entrenched into the minds of innocent brethren.

    Remember rapunzel when paul wrote Ep4:4,he was writing to unified body of christians and not apostates or scattered churches. I wonder if christendom and apostates really has one lord,since they have conflicting views of christ,one baptism as many practise different modes of baptism,one God and father since some say jesus is the father and others say jesus is not the father but equal with him. Is that what you want us to join? What did paul mean by “wind of teaching” Col2:8 sums it nicely:”look out perhaps there may be someone who will CARRY(just like the wind carries things) you off as his prey through the philosophy and empty deception”,indeed doctrines like the trinity,hellfire,immortality of the soul all spring from greek philosophy and jw’s have done well not to be carried “hither and thither by every wind”.also read heb13:9

    When jesus inspected the seven congregations he found all of them wanting(no perfection) in many areas. No doubt they must have claimed to be God’s spirit directed people,but however they all made errors and needed READJUSTMENT,but nevertheless christ endeavoured to correct them and accept them back. The GB have never claimed infallibility,neither have they claimed supernatural revelations from God,so it is no use accusing them of doctrinal changes or .
    I guess the congregation of pergamum must have received “new light”(don’t get me wrong here) on the “teaching of the sect of nicolaus” Rev2:14-17 i.e christ exposed it as false. Now what was jesus ending remarks to them”therefore repent”,from what ? Their mistakes of course,jw’s follow suit today and their mistakes are really getting rarer nowadays!

    Guess i will stop here,gotta go preach the good news of the kingdom,check back in two days to see your comments

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    • Rupunzelsawake says:

      You ask, “Who is persecuting you?”. You’ve got to be kidding!! I am being persecuted by my former congregation, egged on by lies of the GB. You try being invisible and have your friends and family look at you as if you are Satan. That is persecution my friend! I think you might need some lessons in empathy! The organisation doesn’t have an “apostate blog”. They openly and publicly slander me, and other conscientious bible students like myself, in public talks at Conventions and in the publications. My friends listen to that vile name-calling and are obligated to believe it. I’m sure if that happened to you, you would feel persecuted….and angry! I do not belong to ANY group, religious or otherwise. I followed the admonition to flee Babylon the Great. I am not looking to rejoin it. You mentioned our “distorted truth”. I have not distorted truth in any way. I decided to face up to the truth and truthfully analyse the organisations claims based on evidence…ie. the claim that they are the “sole channel”. I thought there was some hope when the GB announced that they had not been given “authority over all the Master’s belongings” in 1918. I thought that perhaps this was a sign of humility and that they could no longer say so dogmatically that all other professed Christians were judged by God,(in 1918), and that instead that judgment would come at the great tribulation. (When Jesus will judge us individually) But no. Even though they admit they will not be approved and pronounced “happy” until then, they STILL stubbornly judge/reject all other professed Christians as of 1914. Even though they have moved the timing of the separation of the sheep and the goats,and the fine fish and the unsuitable fish, to the great tribulation, they stubbornly cling to the separating of the wheat and the weeds as starting in 1914. When you seriously study these things you will find that they don’t add up. I believe that in time they will be forced to change this…..but it might be too late, and judgment will be upon them.

      When you go preaching your “good new” of the Kingdom please don’t mislead your listeners. Tell them up-front that if they want to survive the coming destruction of the world, they must believe and teach every little detail as taught by the WTBTS. Tell them it is not enough to be a follower of Christ, to live by the Bible’s moral code, and to love God and neighbour. Tell them they are not allowed to think for themselves and that they may be required to ignore their own Bible trained conscience.

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    • JJ says:

      Patrick said: “Guess i will stop here,gotta go preach the good news of the kingdom”

      Since most Witnesses allocate Saturday and/or Sunday mornings for field service, that means you will probably be driving around in a large suburban or mini-van and occasionally get out to knock on a return visit that is likely not even home. 99% of all your conversations while out “preaching the Kingdom” will be with other JWs correct?

      Weekend service usually breaks down to this scenario as we here all know. I spent 8 years in full time JW service when I was active at the KH and that is what Saturdays were nearly always filled with, along with a generous coffee break and more visiting among my fellow Witnesses.

      2 Timothy 3:5 says that many would have a “form of Godly devotion” and that seems to apply to most of the “witnessing” that goes on by rank and file publishers. It is simply a way to count hours until the elder-expected number of ten is reached.

      Your comment seems to be made not out of an actual effort to convey information but to “blow a trumpet before you” that you go for a drive in a suit and tie on occasional Saturday mornings.

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  130. Patrick says:

    @jj,yes i will believe everything IF it is well-founded on scriptures

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    • JJ says:

      You still have not answered the question though Patrick- I will reiterate:

      “Do you always agree with everything that is printed in the Watchtower?”

      This is a yes or no question, but of course you are free to elaborate after giving the yes or no answer. An internet troll will often refuse to answer legitimate questions posed by peers on a webpage. Does that apply to you I wonder? Are you a troll or will you engage in an honest dialogue?

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  131. Rupunzelsawake says:

    The GB is indeed apostate because they have alienated themselves from the teachings of Christ. They imitate those that Paul had to correct in 1 Cor 4:5-8. They have “judged before the due time”. They have pronounced judgement on all professing Christians outside of the WT. If you were catholic and died in 1913 you could expect a resurrection. However, if you were a catholic and died in 1914, you can expect no resurrection. You were “rejected” as a “weed” and “bundled for the fiery furnace”. Therefore, no resurrection! Is that logical? Is it just? What defined these persons as weeds? Tell me please, what makes a person an “imitation” Christian? Is it their “religious label”, or affiliation? There are many JWs who don’t even know their own teachings…I would say most of them actually. Is one an “imitation Christian” because they have believed lies, ie. false teachings? Does that mean they do not love truth? JWs have also believed lies. What’s their excuse then? They have one and all been misled, after all, Satan is the ruler of the world, and is misleading all the inhabited earth. His deception will continue until he is abyssed. Anyone claiming the monopoly on truth at this time is seriously deluded.

    What I find most saddening about the worldview of JWs is that they fail to see good. When I started studying with JWs 25 years ago, although I enjoyed learning that the Father had a name, and that hell was not an eternal place of torment, I went through a process of grieving. I looked at the world as if there was nothing meritable in it. It was all a delusion. What seemed to be promising, I was told was of Satan’s world, and it was all going to pass away. Boy, does that view suck the colour out of life. But when Jesus spoke of “the world” he did not mean “humanity”, the people whom Jehovah God loved so much that he sent His son. Over the last three years while I was still active I secretly tested the attitudes of others in the congregation. As you will probably remember, a few years ago we had a big earthquake in NZ. What I found to be encouraging was the response of ordinary folks, in acts of extraordinary kindness and self-sacrifice, to assist fellow victims. Many churches around the country mobilised teams of volunteers. A local university student organised a “student army” of volunteers! (They still continue their work today) When I mentioned how encouraging this was, I was met with silence, or a shrug. One sister got quite argumentative and stated, “Well, in disasters like that no-one is better than JWs” She abruptly ended the conversation and stormed off. She text me later to apologise. JWs sneer at the good others do, especially if they are church people!! JWs relish “bad news”. I have found that when you always look for the bad, and refuse to even acknowledge the good that others do, it becomes difficult to truly “hate wickedness”. You can be certain Jehovah sees the good people do, motivated by love for neighbour, even when they are not “his people”. We have the likes of Job, the “good” Samaritan of Jesus parable, the Gentile Cornelius (who was favourably heard by Jehovah because of his “gifts of mercy”).

    JWs must believe that they are better than everyone else. Only they are fit to be “good neighbours” on the coming “paradise earth”. I don’t believe that. That is an extremely narrow and self-righteous viewpoint. Actually many JWs do not actually believe this, even though this is what the GB teaches. But then again, most JWs don’t understand fully their own teachings. (They will criticise members of other churches for the same thing).

    Again, in your comment you make assumptions. Just because I post on ex-JW web-sites does not mean I agree with everything posted on them. We do not insist on dogmatic agreement here. This is not another “organisation”. It is a whole lot of people who are thinking for themselves. You say you are not being mind-controlled. That’s the hall mark of mind control….when you don’t even realise you are a victim.

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    • Mav Erick says:

      Talking about criticizing other churches. When typhoon Yolanda hit the Philipines last August 08, of this year, I was amazed at how people of the world, the worldlies, the U.N., Religious Organizations, and others countries responded in order to help the victims. After knowing the extent of devastation, they are all united in their effort in helping people in Leyte and other areas. I am waiting for the Society’s response to all these, knowing that we have brothers and sisters there that I’m sure were affected. I visited jw.org for news on Nov 14. Nothing mentioned. I’m wondering if they aware of what’s happening there. Surely they will not just sit by and let the worldlies take care of the flock. And there it was at last, the news about that great typhoon. Nov. 16, in the jw.org website it is mentioned that ” By Sunday, Nov. 10, about 10 vans filled with relief supplies had been delivered, with additional trucks being dispatched the following day. Hooray!! Hooray!! Just as I thought, the Watchtower will not be beaten to the draw. The Watchtower beat them all.. Nov 10, the government agencies after knowing the extent of the damage, they all rush to come in but there is no way in. And those inside, no way out. The mighty U.S, U.K., the U.N., Japan, and other countries, they are all looking for a way to reach the devastated areas. All roads are blocked, airports are unusable because of debris, no ferries to transport equipment and supplies. Hah! They should have asked the Watchtower, they were able to deliver Nov. 10. Amazing. Could it be another case like that of crossing the Jordan River? This is what is said in one of the newspapers in the Philippines, The Philippine Daily Inquirer Nov. 19 page A10 editorial page. ” The massive aid needed could come only by ship. That takes days.” In another column it says,” Days after Yolanda, relief-and people-still couldn’t get through to Leyte because there were no transports to transport them. A group from Doctors Without Borders couldn’t cross the border from Cebu to Tacloban for lack of a ferry to ferry them. Days after Yolanda, relief-and people-still couldn’t get through to those that needed them because the roads were blocked, there was no equipment to clear them.” But the Watchtower were able to deliver? If it is true, why didn’t they inform the world the route that they took? A case of thanks but no thanks….

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  132. JimmyG says:

    Patrick- you have no right to use the word ‘if’ in this context. You must believe everything or you will put yourself on the slippery slope to an inevitable judicial hearing.

    Rupunzel posed no threat to the congregation, as she wasn’t attending meetings. Similar to myself, I have not attended meetings for 9 months, so I pose no threat either. Actually, I want to be left alone and I do not seek out JWs to ‘lead astray’.

    However, a no doubt well meaning brother (not an elder or ms) visited me today. I don’t know him from a bar of soap, but subtly using his own experiences, he left me with the impression that I must be depressed, been offended by someone and should feel guilty that I’m not carrying out God’s commission to preach.

    The frustrating thing for me in this situation is that I had to sit there and listen in silence. There are many things I could have said in response to what he was saying, but then I run the risk of putting myself on that same slippery slope.

    As far as unity is concerned, take the example of the Bible Students, who also claim C.T.Russell as their founder. While united in their core biblical beliefs, they are free to use their consciences in other beliefs without fear of being disfellowshipped, if they discuss these openly. Their congregations function autonomously, not under a central human authority. Surely genuine unity is achieved through love and tolerance. After all, isn’t the identifying mark of true christianity love- unity will be achieved as a natural consequence of that. It shouldn’t need to be forced or legislated.

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  133. Patrick says:

    @jj and jimmyG: I Always agree until i see an error. However does spotting an error make me leave? No,why? This is because the organisation itself warns us against putting complete trust on every word in the watchtower magazine,they know it is not INSPIRED,so it is liable to contain error. If this is one of those “lifechanging questions” i have heard about,then sorry to say it has failed to achieve its aim.

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    • JimmyG says:

      Please provide WT references and quotes to support your statement: “the organisation itself warns us against putting complete trust on every word in the watchtower magazine.”

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  134. Rupunzelsawake says:

    Mmm, you say: “the organisation itself warns us against putting complete trust in every word in the watchtower magazine,they know it is not INSPIRED,so it is liable to contain error.” Let’s have another look at the Walsh trial:

    Regarding what is written in the magazines this is what Brother Franz said:

    Q. Can you tell me this; are these theological publications and the semi-monthly periodicals used for discussion of statements of doctrine?

    A. Yes.

    Q. Are these statements of doctrine held to be authoritative within the Society?

    A. Yes.

    Q. Is their acceptance a matter of choice, or is it obligatory on all those who wish to be and remain members of the Society?

    A. It is obligatory.

    Q. A Witness has no alternative, has he,to accept as authoritative and to be obeyed instructions issued in the Watchtower or the Informant or Awake?

    A. He must accept those.

    I am not aware of any changes to this stance. The Nov 15 WT instructs readers to follow any instructions from the organisation even if they seem impractical or unsound. They demand blind obedience without question. If you KNOW their instruction is “liable to contain error”, will YOU be heeding it?

    Strangely, even though the Society states it is fallible and is not inspired, we are not allowed to act on this knowledge without serious consequences. If we do act on this knowledge we are “spiritually executed”. That just doesn’t make sense. In the months and years ahead it is going to be very difficult for any who have any doubts, no matter how minor, about what they are being taught. A slight wiff of uncertainty will have people screaming “APOSTASY”!! Then the axe will come down swiftly!

    By the way, I thought you were going away for a couple of days. You just can’t resist coming back. I wanted to mention one other thing. You accused us here of wanting to turn minds away from the organisation, and come and join us. What??? We don’t make you come here. We don’t come to your home and force you to listen to us. My replies to you have always been in defense of myself and others like me. Am I not entitled to defend myself against your accusations? You impute bad motives to me and you don’t even know me. The kind of conversation I am having with you is very rare for me. I enjoy wholesome Christian association with like-minded individuals on the forum where we are not being attacked by individuals like yourself. I also enjoy conversing in a positive way with many people I meet in the community. I certainly don’t search out people like you just to have an argument.

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  135. danielB says:

    Rupunzel Is Awake ! Right-on sister . . .

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  136. Frank says:

    Patrick, many, if not all the posters here had the courage to peek behind the iron curtain while the armed guards weren’t looking.

    They have seen the frustrated and disenfranchised victims of the WTBTS’s so-called “justice system,” a system under which thousands have been convicted, not for a Biblical crime, but because they are seen as having a ‘bad attitude’ towards the presumed authority of the Governing Body; they have tried to wipe the tears of the multitude of child abuse victims, only now coming out into the light, who are denied genuine justice, because the GB stubbornly hold to a centuries-old religious perception as a moral absolute. This is the tip of the iceberg.

    There are two issues here – policies and Biblical teaching. The fact that the GB define their musings on justice as “Bible-based” should not impress us. Let the results be the judge of their Christianity. Effectiveness is not an issue. Is it or is it not twisted thinking to state that it is Christ’s love to force a person by making them ‘come to their senses’ so that they will ‘return to the flock’ by denying them access to their believing relatives? Is it by the free will as a gift from God that find out ultimately that, like Islam, Watchtower religion has many doors but no exits?

    Frank

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  137. Rupunzelsawake says:

    What’s that Eagle’s song?….Hotel Cailifornia? “You can check out but you can NEVER LEAVE”!! sounds like WT.

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  138. Frank says:

    Rupunzel reminds us:

    “I found it amusing at the Assembly “Safeguard Your Conscience” that the GB said, “We do not impose our conscience on the world-wide brotherhood”. That is literally what was said.”

    This is one of the many acts of prestidigitation that the WTBTS practices continuously and I don’t know why others can’t see what’s so obvious. The way it’s done is to place the name ‘Jehovah’ in front of any attempts to force another’s conscience to comply with the controller; hence: “It is Jehovah’s will that…” or “This is what God’s Word says we must do…” and so rolls forth an individual human interpretation of a scripture that has been joined by a dot to another ‘supportive’ scripture.

    Any magician will tell you that distraction is the key to fooling the eye (or mind in this case).

    Frank

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  139. Frank says:

    Hi JimmyG. The problem is that most Witnesses can provide page and verse where it says that the Watchtower magazine is not infallible. The issue here is again the expedient use of words to climb out of philosophical holes.

    Of course the GB has to admit they are not infallible, any Biblical prediction will expose this. Again, though, lately, JWs are told to view any teaching from the GB as ‘from Jehovah’!

    This is expedience that goes so far as to insult the Most High. Mixing the two thoughts we must decide:

    (1) Does God feed inaccurate, untrue, or deceptive information to Christ’s brothers here on Earth?

    (2) All attempts to preempt God’s mind and will require that the publishers step outside Scripture.

    Unfortunately, unlike cigarette packets, Watchtower philosophy does not contain a warning that its contents may be wrong and therefore bad for one’s mental and emotion health.

    Frank

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  140. JimmyG says:

    I have asked Patrick to provide WT references and quotes for his statement ‘the organisation itself warns us against putting complete trust on every word in the Watchtower magazine’, not WT quotes saying it’s not infallible- there is a difference. It’s typical for WT apologists to make such claims, but not provide any actual evidence.

    It seems Patrick has left us, at least temporarily, but maybe he’s busy searching the WT CD-ROM in search of this evidence? In the meantime maybe he could give some consideration to the following quotes:

    “But in Jehovah’s organization it is not necessary to spend a lot of time and energy in research, for there are brothers in the organization who are assigned to do that very thing, to help you who do not have so much time for this, these preparing the good material in The Watchtower and other publications of the Society.” w67 6/1 p338 para 12.

    ” First, since “oneness” is to be observed, a mature Christian must be in unity and full harmony with fellow believers as far as faith and knowledge are concerned. He does not advocate or insist on personal opinions or harbor private ideas when it comes to Bible understanding. Rather, he has complete confidence in the truth as it is revealed by Jehovah God through his Son, Jesus Christ, and ‘ the faithful and discreet slave.’ ” w01 8/1 p14 para 8

    “The anointed and their other sheep companions recognize that by following the lead of the modern-day Governing Body, they are in fact following their Leader, Christ.” w10 9/15 p23 para 8

      (Quote)

    • JJ says:

      Patrick seems to be a good example of an internet troll that spouts dogma and opinions but doesn’t address legitimate questions and have an actual dialogue with the people he is supposedly interacting with on a particular subject.

        (Quote)

  141. Frank says:

    Yes JimmyG. When describing the so-called Mother Teresa, Christopher Hitchens uses the phrase, “I’m so humble I can hardly attempt to feed myself, but out of the way because I’m on a mission from God.” This characterises the sort of solipsism (belief that ‘it’s all about us’)the GB displays. In their own mind they can do no wrong and that’s the ‘truth’ they want their acolytes to believe.

    The forget their humanity and place themselves on the doctrinal pedestal. Most rightly see this as a poorman’s idolatry. Not very convincing since many doctrines have not just turned out to be man-made, but profoundly damaging to some.

    JJ, please let him come back on. I like to see how this sort of mind works.

    Frank

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    • JJ says:

      JJ, please let him come back on. I like to see how this sort of mind works.

      Are you referring to Patrick? He is free to comment here. I did ask him to not behave like a troll and actually answer questions and discuss things in a relevant way though…perhaps that was enough for him to throw in the towel?

        (Quote)

      • Frank says:

        Hi JJ. JWs generally can argue ’till the cows come home with a Reasoning book as their six-gun, but break down their logic and they are vulnerable. Patrick would be like any who only can argue ‘loyalty to an 8-man body,’ but little else. He has likely turned tail and ran.

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  142. Rupunzelsawake says:

    Those are excellent quotes Jimmy G! What I found really amusing was something in one of Ray Franz’s books. He said it was announced at the morning (breakfast) table at Bethel HQ that if anyone had a tendency toward apostasy, they should refrain from any deep Bible research, and get a hobby, to take their minds off their doubts!! (Think it was in the early eighties)

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  143. Frank says:

    JimmyG, your second quote is significant. No one can fault the logic in what they say, but historically, they have an unreasonable expectation that acolytes believe (Latin: to trust)whatever moral and ethical teaching they espouse. This has led many into conflict with their own consciences. Is the Blood Doctrine accurate, or would it be like the Catholic Church ridding themselves of the Limbo doctrine, causing an outcry from parents, who for centuries, believed their unbaptised babies were tortured eternally?

    As long as Christians stick to the unambiguous core teachings(except for silly people who accept the unBiblical doctrine of the Trinity) most can get by without too many problems. Instead every detail has been delved into and noses poked into nooks and crevices where they don’t belong and, Voila! we have this site!!!

    Frank

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  144. Michael says:

    I left this discussion board sometime ago after patrick invited me to comment here. I must say I enjoyed patrick’s arguments defending the organisation and now I am here I would like to start mine. Lest I forget patrick might not be able to comment here as he is quite busy in the ministry,sowing seeds of truth in the hearts of truth seekers,I too am quite busy but I will discuss on this forum for some time.

    Rapunzel, patrick told you that the organisation warns us agains’t putting complete trust in the writings found in the watchtower magazines and then you go on to quote a piece of the Douglas walsh trial to refute him. I must point it out to you, that your response misses the point as that quotation does not negate the glaring fact that the writings were non-inspired. Fred franz only asserted that it had to be accepted as authoritative,he did not claim it was inspired,don’t you agree?.

    Rapunzel you are making wild claims by calling the GB apostate. I would suggest you restriict yourself to the biblical connotations of that term. You assert that the GB have alienated themselves from the teachings of christ,therefore making them apostate,and I would like to ask like patrick,which teachings you have in mind? Is it the trinity,Hellfire? I hope you are aware that some Ex-jw’s e.g chris, don’t believe in the trinity,does it mean they are alienated from the teachings of christ,if so then they along with the GB are apostate. But then again the GB is not apostate,it is Jehovah’s means of giving spiritual food to his people.

    Thanks for the quotes jimmyG as it has further encouraged me to defend Jehovah’s organisation.I don’t understand fully your reason for the quotes ,what do you intend proving with these,however what I grasped from those quotes is humility to Jehovah and his organisation. Thanks again
    Man of all seasons made some comments about me,which I could easily respond to,but I won’t go into that now. Me and pat are quite busy,as we are conducting bible study with many interested ones,and like he said we have met Ex-jw’s in the preaching work, we even had an experience when a lady tried to get us “born again”,we reasoned with her but she failed to understand,well it’s God who makes the truth grow in peoples hearts.

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  145. JimmyG says:

    Welcome back Michael. Which quotes are you referring to? I’m not sure how far back you are going.

    Like most active JWs, comments are made making the presumption that the GB is “Jehovah’s means of giving spiritual food to his people.” Biblical proof is needed for this assertion, minus human presumption.

    Also, I asked Patrick to provide WT references to confirm his statement that ‘the organisation itself warns us against putting complete trust on every word in the Watchtower magazine’. Are you willing to do this?

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    • Michael says:

      @ jimmy
      I was referring to your last quotes

      The GB I asserted is jehovah’s channel of feeding his spiritual flock today,it is similarly patterned after the structure of the apostles who were responsible for the oversight of the growing christian congregations in the first century. Now we are all aware that the apostles and other anointed individuals were the means by which Jehovah fed his sheep. Now in our times the apostles are no more,so who is now left with that responsibility of oversight? Well the organisation of jehovah’s witnesses decided to set-up a 8-man body of experienced elders who will be responsible for watching over Jehovah’s sheep. I am aware that the GB has sometimes made erroneous statements,miscalculated bible chronology as well as committed many errors in the past,but the actions taken by the GB to resolve this issues is what has brought me ever closer to this organisation. And what action did they take,namely; they repented. I know you guys will respond to this statement but anyways I will push on

      Jimmy I don’t need to get quotes for you,as you can find them in many watchtower publications like the revelation climax and others. Now let me qualify Patrick’s statements. When he said “the organisation warns us against putting complete trust in every word” contained in the magazines,he was referring to the speculative aspects of the magazines if they had any,but nevertheless it still had to be accepted as authoritative.

        (Quote)

      • JimmyG says:

        Michael, as per usual with JWs generally, your comments are all presumptions. You are just repeating the WT mantra that a GB existed in the 1st century, which is the supposed model for today. I noted your expression “the organisation of jehovah’s witnesses decided to set-up a 8-man body of experienced elders”. Good for them, but this is a self appointment by humans- there is no evidence that they act on behalf of Jehovah. If you want to believe it, that’s your choice.

        You say they ‘repented’- when did they do this?

        As for not providing WT quotes- that’s because there aren’t any. I invite you to prove otherwise, for instance in the Revelation climax book you refer to. Patrick said ‘the organisation’ warns us against putting complete trust in every word in the WT magazine. If ‘the organisation’ has said this, where are these statements in WT literature? Evidence please, if it’s not too much to ask.

        As for the quotes- these demonstrate that the organisation (GB) does NOT warn us against putting complete trust in every word contained in its literature. It requires its adherents to completely trust what it says. In fact any voiced dissent is regarded as ‘disloyalty’ to Jehovah and the dissenter, if he/she does not ‘recant’, is quickly removed by means of the WT’s unbiblical judicial procedures.

          (Quote)

      • Rupunzelsawake says:

        When did they decide to “set-up” a “8-man body of experienced elders”? When did they decide 8 was the lucky number? (The eighth member was only added last year) In previous years there have been way more. Have you studied how the governing body was formed, and how it was argued against, quite vehemently, by the vice-president (in a speech to Gilead graduates – see http://www.freeminds.org/history/franzorg1976.htm) before it’s inaugaration in the 1970s? Before the GB was formed, only the president (one man) had all authority over the production of “spiritual food”…not a “small group” as the WT suggests on page 22, par 10.(Nathan Knorr even took it upon himself alone to have the NWT written).

        I have not noted much of a repentant attitude from the GB. Even the elder (in his sixties) shepherding me (and later judging me….which is actually “against the rules”) said how disappointed he was that the GB did not accept any responsiblity for the 1975 debacle, instead blaming it on over-eager members. He knew that was not true…

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  146. Frank says:

    Hi Michael. You remind me of the “jolly hockey sticks” chap I once was, always ready to defend the WT even if my ideas were unresearched and even a tad irrational.

    Actually, you should realise from the recent convention “human apostate” talk that the overuse of terms like “Jehovah’s Organisation” and “God’s people” merely reflects a desire to think that you are a possession of the OT’s tribal god. Perhaps if you go back over that talk now being criticised madly on Youtube you might be able to use your objectivity to see how such silly talk looks in a scientific world where religion is seen as the primitive concept it should be relegated to. Perhaps, like me, you might feel at least a little embarrassed at all the silliness.

    Tell me, can you reconcile Christ’s teaching to love your enemy with the Organisation’s requirement to cut off social ties with one’s family should an acolyte find himself/herself disagreeing or even thinking differently with a current teaching of the Watchtower?

    You seem to have a strange meld of ideas about the trust a JW should put in Watchtower writings. The WT uses expediency depending on the changing zeitgeist or fashion as to what should be accepted. At the moment all JWs are being told to accept the writings, “as if from Jehovah.”

    Does Jehovah think like a human?

    Does the GB believe that Jehovah deceives them when their teachings prove to have mistakes in them; are they guilty of layering human ‘wisdom’ on to “Jehovah’s Word”; or do they simply go beyond the Scriptures?

    I would be interested in your comments.

    Frank

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    • Michael says:

      @ Frank

      Your point on your second paragraph is quite weird for someone who is an Ex-jw,show me one one quote from the watchtower that says we should not love our enemies,or are you referring to the community of Ex-witnesses alone? Moreover the command to shun disfellowshiped members is scriptural and we staunchly follow that directive,but with regards to family members who were disfellowshiped see what this articles says

      The Watchtower of April 15, 1991, in the footnote on
      page 22 , states:
      “‘If in a Christian’s household there is a
      disfellowshipped relative, that one would still be part
      of the normal, day-to-day household dealings and
      activities.'”
      “Thus, it would be left up to members of the family to
      decide on the extent to which the disfellowshipped
      family member would be included when eating or
      engaging in other household activities. And yet, they
      would not want to give brothers with whom they
      associate the impression that everything is the same
      as it was before the disfellowshipping occurred.” –
      Our Kingdom Ministry, 8/02, pp.6 Heading: “Display
      Christian Loyalty When a Relative Is
      Disfellowshipped.”

      So it seems not all social ties are cut-off,the disfellowshipped one can still participate in some activities with the rest of the family.

      Now Frank what does it mean to accept writings “as if from Jehovah”? I will explain, the GB is responsible for feeding the sheep of Jehovah,thus they represent God in this case,and since it is coming from the authority it is “as if from Jehovah”. Now note the wording “as if”,indicating that it is not a direct revelation from God,but rather a harmonised scriptural interpretation of God. But what of the phrase “from Jehovah”, this is easy to understand,since the interpretation comes from God’s Word and God’s Word is from Jehovah himself,therefore the message is originally from God,but the interpretation of that message now makes it “as if from Jehovah” I hopes this helps Frank.

      Jehovah does not think like man,but he expects us to research on his word,to meditate on it and definitely we would make some mistakes in biblical studies,and then again unlike the apostles, Jw’s do not claim divine inspiration or infallibility so we are inevitably going to make mistakes. The important thing is not about commiting those mistakes,what is more vital is the ability to repent of former mistakes and genuinely pursuing the truth, no wonder Jesus took him his time to correct his congregations,he exposed their errors no doubt,but he lovingly gave them a chance to repent and today jw’s accept that correction and follow their master Jesus. Am sure if Hymaenaeus got hold of Revelation he would have gladly shown his apostate brethen and confused/fading xtians how bad Christianity was at that time and I can imagine he must have subverted their faith.

      I believe the last paragraph has addressed your last point,but I will like to add this,the GB were not Deceived by Jehovah,rather they misunderstood God’s word. They do not rely on their wisdom to interpret scripture,rather they let scripture interpret scripture. They also use the bible to understand events that may have fulfilled prophetic declarations. This brings to mind Jesus’s reply to the Pharisees on their failure to recongnise the signs of the end Matt 16:3,now Jesus compares discerning of the end to discerning the weather conditions of a place,although one might correctly discern the weather of a particular area,however not all speculations on the weather would be correct,don’t you agree? Similarly interpreting the sign of the end would require speculation and as such it may prove to be a wrong interpretation.

        (Quote)

      • Rupunzelsawake says:

        Dear Michael, were you at the 2013 District Convention? Did you not hear the talk http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fB3Op6TSHNk JWs are directed to avoid any association with disfellowshipped family members. The WT you quote above is talking about the “household”, ie. if the disfellowshipped one STILL LIVES IN THE SAME HOUSE as JW family members. Have you been keeping up with your reading of WT literature? Apparently not. Please also check the January 15th 2013 WT pg 16, par 19: ” Really, what your beloved family member needs to see is your resolute stance to put Jehovah above everything else—including the family bond…. Do not look for excuses to associate with a disfellowshipped family member, for example, through e-mail.”

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  147. Rupunzelsawake says:

    Hi. welcome back!

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  148. Rupunzelsawake says:

    Hi Michael. It’s really encouraging to see you back again in light of post #75! I am well aware that the WTBTS publications are not inspired…..although that is more than a little dubious when you consider comments like this from Rutherford (written long after their supposed 1919 appointment as God’s channel):
    “Enlightenment proceeds from Jehovah… and is given to the faithful anointed…. the remnant are instructed by the angels of the Lord. The remnant do not hear audible sounds, because such is not necessary. Jehovah has provided his own good way to convey thoughts to the minds of his anointed ones.” (Preparation 1933, pg 64)
    “Surely the holy angels of Jehovah God,… are clothed with power to put questions in the minds of those on earth who are devoted to God. It is not necessary for us to know just how this is done, but there can be no doubt about the power of the deputies of the Lord.” Rutherford, J. F., Light book 1, 1930, p. 61, 62; The Watchtower, May 15, 1938, p. 157.
    … “Jehovah would employ his power through his angels to put in the minds of his servants to take the course that he would have them take.”The Watchtower, November 1, 1937, p. 326, ¶14; 1938 Yearbook of Jehovah’s Witnesses,
    “God put it into the minds of his people to declare what constitutes Satan’s organization and to serve notice upon each branch thereof…. Jehovah directs his own work, though we hear no audible voices.” The Watchtower, February 15, 1935, p. 54, ¶16; 1935 Yearbook of Jehovah’s Witnesses.
    See a more recent quote in the Jan 1st 2007 WT pg 28, par 11 where it says resurrected anointed ones may share in the communicating of divine truths.
    Read more at http://www.seanet.com/~raines/medium.html
    I hardly know where to begin with what I personally consider to be false teachings of the Governing Body. Perhaps the most serious is that they prevent those belonging to Christ from coming to him. They block Jehovah’s holy spirit. Jehovah draws people to his son, not to a governing body of men. Salvation does not belong to men to give. These men say “Come to Jehovah’s organisation for salvation”,(meaning, come to them) but Jesus Christ himself said, “I am the way, the truth and the life.” The organisation is not the “truth” or the “life”. Jesus himself is. How do they block access to Christ? Have you ever considered that the 144,000 could be a symbolic number and not a literal number? What if the GB have been wrong about taking this number literally? How can twelve times a figurative number (ie. the 12 tribes listed in Rev 7)equal a literal number? Have you read “Where Are the Great Crowd Serving” yet? You can read the article on this site. (See “New and Useful Links”)
    I also do not believe in hell-fire, for the same reason I do not believe Jehovah will “destroy billions of ignorant people” at Armageddon. That simply is not just. I have investigated the Trinity teaching and can see why many choose to believe it, in it’s various forms, and there are many, many understandings of it. It simply is not as clear cut as the WT would have us believe. Trinitarians can provide scriptural evidence for their view, just as a non-trinitarians can produce evidence for their views. To me the key thing is that Jesus is “the exact representation of his (Jehovah’s)very being”. In other words, if you were going to wrap Jehovah up in flesh, he would be exactly like Jesus. He showed us the Father, up close and personal. “If you have seen me you have seen the Father”, Jesus said. Thomas recognised this when he exclaimed, “My Lord and my God!”. Sadly I feel that JWs do not elevate Jesus to his rightful position, the one that his Father gave him. “There is no salvation in anyone else for there is not another name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must get saved” (Acts 4:12) “..God exalted him to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above every other name, so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend of those in heaven and those on the earth and those under the ground, and every tongue should acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father”. (Philippians 2:9-11). I believe the GB direct attention AWAY from the son, and that is very sad for all JWs.

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  149. Rupunzelsawake says:

    I just watched part 12 of the God’s Channel video series. The brother who made it is lovingly trying to direct ones to the true source of salvation, that is Jesus Christ. Michael, if you get the chance, please watch it. I have replied to you but it is awaiting moderation. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gz4cD61ThME

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  150. Michael says:

    Rapunzel I must confess,I was amused as I watched that video play,is that all it can offer? I am seriously disappointed at the video owner,trying to paint the GB as one of the apostate post-apostolic religious councils and then again I see you guys have nothing to offer to prove your assertions. Be rest assured rapunzel I can respond to that video,am now a mature jehovah’s witness to be easily taken in by such videos,but I won’t. I have also learned not to trust quotations from Ex-witnesses,so I will research on it myself,moreover the video misunderstood brother Karl Kline.

    I will like to clear a few things here,jehovah’s witnesses believe that Christ is the mediator between men and God,but however 1Tim2:5 must be read according to the context,and the context speaks of mediatorship with regards to the forgiveness of sins,prayer supplications,thanksgiving see verse 1,4 and 6. It is interesting to note that in verse 4,it is Gods will “that all sorts of men should be saved and come to accurate knowledge of truth”,now how can we come to accurate knowledge if we all go following our personal interpretation? This entails we need a centralised body of knowledge from which we can draw accurate knowledge. Moreso the GB does not compete with Chrst for mediatorship,and that is what that video was confusing itself with,just like the apostles they disseminate spiritual food to the congregations.

    I will stop here,but the video should try harder if it wants to prove that the organisation equates itself with Jehovah and Jesus, o God why can’t I stop laughing at the video,note that I have listened to it well but it has failed to prove it’s point

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    • BeenMislead says:

      Michael:

      I will stop here,but the video should try harder if it wants to prove that the organisation equates itself with Jehovah and Jesus, o God why can’t I stop laughing at the video,note that I have listened to it well but it has failed to prove it’s point

      Actually the video proves conclusively from the organizations own publications that they have placed themselves in the position of Jesus as our mediator.

      It is sad that you “Michael” are to blinded to see that …

        (Quote)

      • Michael says:

        @ Beenmislead

        Like you correctly said it is the video that is trying to prove a non-existent issue,but definitely that is not what the watchtower writer meant to prove. In the first place Jehovah’s witnesses regard Jehovah as the true source of salvation and we view Jesus as Jehovah’s true channel of salvation to mankind,so the video starts on wrong premise by asserting the Organisation is a barrier between God and the individual Jehovah’s witness. Salvation is gained by exercising faith in Jehovah and Jesus no doubt,jesus also said that “taking in knowledge of the true God and the one whom he sent ” is crucial to gaining everlasting life,now the question remains,who will help teach this knowledge,of course it will be God’s word,but jehovah USES people to instruct other people and this people he uses must be have a central standard of belief. Throughout the video the author was trying to portray the GB as a tyrant that claims monopoly over spiritual truth,but what the video didn’t tell us was which channel we could use to obtain this truth,definitely this truth cannot be totally gotten from personal bible study as the case of the Ethiopian Eunuch,it cannot be gotten form Christendom which regard each other as apostate versions,so it seems the truth must come out from somewhere and that place will have to be freed of false teachings. Salvation is gained through Jesus but you must associate with his visible representatives to be saved from destruction,note that the Organisation cannot save,rather it is ASSOCIATION with that organisation that helps in saving individuals,this is made evident in the case of rahab who had to associate with the jews(God’s organisation in the past) for her to get saved from jericho’s destruction,so in modern times individuals must associate with the new Isreal to be saved. The organisation does not compete with christ for mediatorship,because have you heard anyone pray in the name of the organisation? We respect his Organisation very much,but we respect the Christ more who is it’s head.

        I hope this helps beenmislead,just hope you will be led back to the truth and stop being misled

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        • miscreant droid says:

          Hello Michael. I’m glad to hear from you again. You defend your faith in the Organization far better than any other apologists who have come here. I would like to commend you on that, and also make clear that I don’t approve of those who call you a hypocrite for ignoring WatchTower counsel by visiting and commenting with us. That’s a cheap out for those who feel they’re losing an argument with you, or are perhaps still so angry with the GB that they view its supporters as enemies. Though I don’t agree with everything you’ve said so far on this thread, I’m enjoying the careful thought that you’ve given comments. Thanks again for coming back to brave the onslaught of criticism.

          MD

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          • Rupunzelsawake says:

            Thanks for that reminder droid. I just want to say Michael, I by no means view you as an enemy. I’m sorry if it might look that way. I apologise for suggesting you are hypocritical. If I call you hyprocrite, then what was I for 22 years? I considered myself a sincere, honest-hearted, loving JW for 22 years. I have to remind myself that most JWs are sincere and they certainly are very devoted to Jehovah. No doubt you are here with noble motives. You are brave, that’s for sure! I have been very angry at the GB, and sometimes it is hard not to get defensive when you feel you are being attacked by apologists, especially if it’s your character under attack. You know, I was a diligent bible student for many years… We are instructed to do personal study, and use our reasoning abilities, but if we come to different conclusions to the GB,(which is really distressing) and we ask for help, we are disfellowshipped. That’s what happened to me. Why do they have to do that? I wasn’t talking to anyone about it, but at the same time I couldn’t teach things I no longer believed. (ie. only JWs saved at Armageddon, All churches judged as weeds from 1914 on)

            Have you ever considered that the time for “the channel” is not yet….that it is for the 1000year reign of the kingdom, when there will be perfect instructors?

              (Quote)

        • BeenMislead says:

          Michael:

          I hope this helps beenmislead,just hope you will be led back to the truth and stop being misled

          Actually “Michael” it was the Watchtower Organization that mislead me as a young man in 1969 with articles like the following:

          Awake! 1969 May 22 p.15, WHAT FUTURE for the YOUNG?
          “If you are a young person, you also need to face the fact that you will never grow old in this present system of things. Why not? Because all the evidence in fulfillment of Bible prophecy indicates that this corrupt system is due to end in a few years. Of the generation that observed the beginning of the “last days” in 1914,Jesus foretold: “This generation will by no means pass away until all these things occur.”-Matt. 24:34.
          Therefore, as a young person, you will never fulfill any career that this system offers. If you are in high school and thinking about a college education, it means at least four, perhaps even six or eight more years to graduate into a specialized career. But where will this system of things be by that time? It will be well on the way toward its finish, if not actually gone!”

          —————————————————

          And they continue today with the same kind of misleading statements. Here are some quotes from the November 15th 2013 Watchtower:

          “God’s promised new world is near, and our salvation is nearer than we may think.” (w13 11/15 p.7)

          “Our way of life will thus reveal that we are staying awake spiritually and that we really believe that the end of this wicked system of things is imminent.” (w13 11/15 p.7)

          “If we are busy helping others to gain accurate knowledge about God, the time remaining before the coming of Jehovah’s judgment will pass more quickly. Soon—even suddenly—time will run out. When it does, how glad we will be that we kept busy in the Kingdom preaching work!” (w13 11/15 p.12)

          “In the near future, the nations will say ‘Peace and security!’” (w13 11/15 p.12)

          “Already we see indications that her [false religion’s] demise is near.” (w13 11/15 p.13)

          “Soon, Jehovah’s day will come.” (w13 11/15 p.14)

          “In the near future, Jehovah’s apparently vulnerable people will come under attack…” (w13 11/15 p.20)

          ————————————————

          I hope this helps you Michael to stop being mislead !

            (Quote)

        • Rupunzelsawake says:

          Did you realise Michael, that JWs no longer get baptised in the name of Jesus? They do however get baptised “in association with the spirit directed organisation”.(Research how the baptismal questions have changed) Also you aptly describe the WT when you said “it (truth) cannot be gotten from Christendom which regard each other as apostate versions,so it seems the truth must come out from somewhere and that place will have to be freed of false teachings.” WT views all other Christian denominations as apostate, so I guess it must be apostate also. And since when has the WTBTS taught “truth”? Can you give me a date?

          The GB puts themselves above Jesus. Jesus said, “For whoever speaks a word against the Son of man, it will be forgiven him” (Matthew 12:32). But whoever speaks a word against the GB has committed the unforgivable sin for which there can be no repentance. (This is implied by the Rsg book pg 37) I have faith in Jesus Christ, and I have faith in Jehovah, but I have lost faith in the GB, for good reason. Therefore The GB have judged me worthy of everlasting destruction. That’s a dangerous thing to do. (1 Cor 4:5, Proverbs 17:15) So you are wrong Michael. The GB see themselves as critical to our salvation, even though the Bible says it is only by faith in God’s son.

          Here is a good video I would encourage you watch:

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  151. Patrick says:

    Well don micheal.

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  152. Frank says:

    Michael: “I am aware that the GB has sometimes made erroneous statements,miscalculated bible chronology as well as committed many errors in the past,but the actions taken by the GB to resolve this issues is what has brought me ever closer to this organisation. And what action did they take,namely; they repented.”

    Do you intend to answer my questions above about the so-called connection between God and man, Michael? I will understand your lack if you don’t.

    Tell me, did you sell your house just prior to 1975 or choose to leave school after basic education to further the Good News as an almost uneducated pioneer? You see, it’s easy to forgive when minimal or no damage is incurred as a result of powerful people’s wilful arrogance and presumptuousness.

    Could you quote and cite evidence of the Governing Body’s “repentance” over their “miscalculations,” please. The only evidence of any reaction to the ongoing callous attitude is their willingness to disfellowship JWs even for THINKING differently from them.

    Finally, do you know what Stockholm Syndrome is, Michael?

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  153. Frank says:

    Oh, and on the point of apostolic authority, Michael…though the GB label themselves as ‘Christ’s brothers’ only, doesn’t an 8-panel exclusive group look even slightly like a pretension to apostleship? The official dogma is that there is no apostolic succession, but really, could we not conclude that such an exclusive group claims greater power than the first-century apostles? Actually, the authority is equal to the Pope!

    Frank

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  154. danielB says:

    Dump the Pope , dump the GB . . .

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  155. Rupunzelsawake says:

    Michael, you said: “It is interesting to note that in verse 4,it is Gods will “that all sorts of men should be saved and come to accurate knowledge of truth”,now how can we come to accurate knowledge if we all go following our personal interpretation?”

    You are happy to follow the personal interpretations of other men. As you previously stated, the GB are not inspired, even their own literature says they have no more holy spirit than the average JW. At which point did their teachings become “accurate?” The verse you quoted does not say God’s will is for all sorts of men to come to an accurate knowledge of truth and be saved. When Satan, the one deceiving the whole inhabited earth, is “abyssed”, then true knowledge will become abundant. Then people will learn the “pure language’.(Zeph 3:8,9) During that time, “the ones having insight will shine like the brightness of the expanse; and those bringing the many to righteousness….many will rove about, and the true knowledge will become abundant.” (Daniel 12:2-4) The “FDS” still insist on applying that scripture to themselves (from 1919 on, I expect), but it is actually AFTER “many of those asleep in the ground…wake up” (and this harmonises with Mt13:43 See July 15 ’13 WT).

    Just out of interest, how many bible studies are you conducting, and what are you teaching your students regards being loyal to the “ones taking the lead”, (the GB), and about being obedient to them? Romans 2:21 (with modifications)”do you, however, the one teaching someone else, not teach yourself? You, the one preaching ‘Do not look at apostate websites, do you look at apostate websites?'” The word for this starts with “H”.

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  156. Michael says:

    Men you guys should take it easy,am just one apologist tackling your comments,if there were three apologist,the workload would have reduced,rapunzel I have responded twice to your to last two posts but I can’t find it here. So many posts is really wearing me out.

    I must end my commenting on these blog,it has taken much of my time,I have got good news to preach in my area together with patrick and our dear Bro Mark( this guy is a super JW defender)

    Frank I have prepared a response to you,but I might post it at a later time

    Beenmislead nothing in those quotes smacks of deception,even paul encouraged us not to get married because of the coming kingdom,yet till today that kingdom has not come,what now happens to those who did not get married?

    I have reviewed your comments here and I have not seen any reason to leave the organisation,currently I am hoping to be made an elder,no doubt I will be a source of strength to my weaker brothers. Lastly after commenting on these websites and others like this I have seriously sharpened my skills as a jw defender

    Time to go fellas,till next time ex brothers

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    • BeenMislead says:

      Michael:

      Beenmislead nothing in those quotes smacks of deception,even paul encouraged us not to get married because of the coming kingdom,yet till today that kingdom has not come,what now happens to those who did not get married?

      So you “Michael” are saying that telling a young man about 19 years old in 1969 that they will not grow old in the present system of things is not deceptive or misleading?

      Really … that is all you got?
      That is really sad !!

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  157. JimmyG says:

    Michael you say that you are ‘hoping to be made an elder’. For an active JW, just coming on a site like this, let alone commenting on it, is disobedience to the GB (F&DS). You are being disloyal to Jehovah by not fully trusting in his ‘channel’.

    I hope you are truthful when asked if there is anything from your past that may disqualify you from accepting this role in the congregation.

    You seem to regard yourself as some sort of ‘apostle to the apostates’. Do you think that the GB needs you to defend it? Let it defend itself. But, it’s impossible to defend the indefensible.

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  158. Frank says:

    “@ Frank
    Your point on your second paragraph is quite weird for someone who is an Ex-jw,show me one one quote from the watchtower that says we should not love our enemies,or are you referring to the community of Ex-witnesses alone?”

    First of all, Mike, let’s establish that apostates are equivocated with enemies of the Watchtower:

    *** w04 2/15 p. 28 “Fight the Fine Fight of the Faith” ***
    The enemy may aim a blow by attacking Bible truths that are fundamental to your faith. Apostates may use smooth words, flattery, and twisted reasoning to try to defeat you. But the apostate does not have your well-being at heart. Proverbs 11:9 notes: “By his mouth the one who is an apostate brings his fellowman to ruin, but by knowledge are the righteous rescued.”

    *** w85 12/15 p. 7 How You Can Show Gratitude for What Jesus Did ***
    Paul is also showing what an ingrate the willful sinner or apostate has become. Such a man has committed the ultimate insult in three ways. First, he “has trampled upon the Son of God.” Either he now views Jesus as his enemy, for ancient conquerors trod on the necks of their conquered foes, or he looks upon Jesus with disdain, because men tread on what they despise. (Compare Matthew 7:6.)

    *** w81 9/15 p. 22 pars. 11-12 Disfellowshiping—How to View It ***
    11 The expelled person is not a mere man of the world who has not known God nor pursued a godly way of life. Rather, he has known the way of truth and righteousness, but he has left that way and unrepentantly pursued sin to the point of having to be expelled. So he is to be treated differently. …The saying of the true proverb has happened to them: ‘The dog has returned to his vomit, and the sow that was bathed to rolling in the mire.’”—2 Pet. 2:20-22; 1 Cor. 6:11.

    *** w07 3/15 p. 29 par. 15 Demons—How Can We Resist Them? ***
    15 “Above all things,” Paul continues, “take up the large shield of faith, with which you will be able to quench all the wicked one’s burning missiles.” (Ephesians 6:16) …They could be penetrating insults, lies, and half-truths put out by enemies and apostates trying to weaken our faith.

    To clarify my position:

    I am presently an active JW who has read the first-hand experiences of seriously-badly treated people by their fellow congregation members and family.

    More to come.

    Frank

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  159. Frank says:

    Patrick and Michael, since you both have a healthy curiosity what goes on on sites like this, you many wish to take Cedars up on his rebuttal of the “human apostates” talk:

    http://jwsurvey.org/cedars-blo.....-apostates

    Go on, show us how truly intelligent you all are… don your spiritual armour and accept Cedars invitation to defend the total misinformation the WTBTS churns out, the ridiculous unsubstantiated claims it makes about the nature of apostasy from WT teachings.

    Frank

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  160. danielB says:

    There’s no hope for following the Pope ; and as for the Governing Body , they also went to the potty . Their guidance is not the same as the True God’s guidance on several accounts . Perhaps they have Baal as a God . Do they really know God ?

    1 Kings 18:27

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  161. Frank says:

    Secondly to your claim that the Watchtower teaches its acolytes to ‘love their enemy,’ you may need reminding that Matthew 5:44 states also that Christians “do good to their enemy.” Tell me, Michael, do you think shunning is an act of love and good?

    I know, and can supply sources, that at least two examples I know where 2 different ex-Witnesses were stumbled by the simple act of JWs turning their shopping trolleys/carts around in a supermarket at the sight of the ‘disapproved’ one. The irony is that neither was disfellowhipped at the time.

    *** w08 8/1 p. 16 About How to Treat Others ***
    Why be kind?
    Are you kind even when people are unkind to you? If we want to imitate Jesus, we must be kind even to those who hate us. Jesus said: “If you love those loving you, of what credit is it to you? For even the sinners love those loving them. . . . To the contrary, continue to love your enemies . . . , and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind toward the unthankful and wicked.”—Luke 6:32-36; 10:25-37. – End quote

    Even if one uses the twisted view that “bringing such ones to their senses” is an act of love, could we equivocate the quality of kindness to the act of shunning?

    Did Jesus shun even the Pharisees? He went for a meal at one of their houses; preached to them. Is not Jesus our exemplar? Perhaps you place the decree of 8 men higher than the example of Jesus.

    The fact is, Michael, that if you think such examples as cited above are rare (they are not) then you have at least to accept that this is how disciples of the GB are taking the counsel – to avoid contact with those they SUSPECT of some form of apostasy; with or without a trial.

    Frank

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  162. ruth says:

    Michael.
    True worshippers will worship in Spirit and truth. Father is looking for these ones.
    Truth seekers cannot stay in religions and the Watch Tower is a religion.

    Jesus said he would refresh us.” Apparently the Elders think they are refreshing but seriously they do not have compassion on The true children of God. l have no good memories of any of them ever loving my children just miserable with them. Oh yes, im sorry there was one here called Tony M from Australia

    If you care to look into the first century congregational matters you will see a completely different set up. No Jehovahs witness, No baptist or pentacostals. Just one way!

    In actual fact the sheep are being brough out of religions into Jesus loving arms.
    He promised his load would be light. The watch tower took everything and gave nothing back. “On the other hand Yahweh makes sure his children have what they need. That was such a heavy load.

    Do you know how many familes are vacating there Kingdom hall seats now?
    The Tower will never tell you, but we see 1000s coming here and the number is growing.
    They are seaching for real truth. ‘They cannot stand corruption and greed as the tower is so rich untill the cases for child molestation came to court.

    Your are all paying for the court cases. “Perhaps they may dig into there commercial accounts. WHICH WE PAYED FOR.
    You can stand for the Tower of doom. “WE WILL STAND FOR JESUS TO COME BACK AND RULE IN HIS KINGDOM. “Came in 1914, what a joke. And invisibly. What a scam.

    Every eye will see him. Every ear will hear the 6 trumpet blow. The angles will be annoucing his arrival in the clouds. ‘Come Yahsuah come we wait you our Lord and king of Kings.

    Time my brother to start search for the simple way. The real truth is simple and kind.
    Ruth

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  163. Jdub for life says:

    This good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nation’s and then the end will come mat 24:14, jw’s have publications translated in over 200 languages, more than any other publication of all time. Ones spending as much time as they can traveling to the most distant parts of the earth trying to teach one’s about the bible, preaching to some tribes that have never heard of god, the bible comes out and says that no one knows when the end will come but only God. Noah spent around 120 years building the arc and preaching to one’s that a deluge was going too happen destroying the inhabited earth, people thought he was crazy, out of his mind, and what happened, the flood came and washed them all away. Adam and eve were made not to prove themselves righteous and go to heaven but to inhabit the entire earth. God had already countless angels why would he now start making them prove themself righteous? Other religions just don’t make sense with what the bible actually says.

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  164. danielB says:

    Ah yes ! Jdub for life !

    You have been introduced to many things from God , as one of Jehovah’s Witnesses . You mentioned the Good News being preached throughout all of the inhabited earth , before the end comes . You are so right .

    However one needs to consider what that really means . In Revelation , there are symbolic angels who are “taking the Gospel to the ends of the earth” . This scripture has the identical meaning . . .

    The 3 angels represent all of the messengers worldwide in the time of the end .

    The word “Gospel” means the same as “this good news of the kingdom” .

    And it stands to reason that the true gospel concerning Jesus has been increasingly present in all countries around the world . And it also stands to reason that the formal and informal witnessing about this gospel has been performed by sincere Christians of many denominations of Christendom , including the JWs .

    You said , Jdub for life , ” jw’s have publications translated in over 200 languages, more than any other publication of all time. ” Are you sure about that ? It’s strange how that some statements like that circulate around the witness community . On your statement , I beg to differ .

    I have another question for you . You had written :

    ” God had already countless angels why would he now start making them prove themselves righteous? ”

    I don’t understand what you are asking . The idea of angels having to prove themselves righteous is a foreign thought for me . Did you ask that question with the right words ? Please understand that I am not being facetious ; just wanting to know what you were thinking .

    . . . anyway . . . The main thing I would like to give you to consider here , is that the message about the Son of God , Jesus , Yeshua , isn’t really taught very well by the organization . They haven’t reached nearly as many fertile hearts around the globe as the rest of huge Christendom . Just think about that . . . just do the math .

    You know I really appreciate the enthusiasm of your comments above . I am sure that your heart is in the right place with God Yehoweh . I’m glad to see you drop in .

    Keep it up ! You might graduate from the Watchtower Organization yet !

    Sincerely , bro dan

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  165. miscreant droid says:

    Hiya Jdub,

    I’m also glad of your enthusiasm and happy to have you commenting here. Although I don’t doubt the sincerity of most JWs, the road to salvation through God’s holy word was laid down by Christendom long before any from the Organization of Jehovah’s Witnesses showed up. Bibles and bible teaching were already taking root in the Far East, Africa, and Hindi territories. The idea that tribes that have never heard of God are suddenly being enlightened by JWs is absurd. You will have the same success as your predecessors: initial cursory interest followed by vexation and then disinterest. The Org. continues to boast of hours in service and magazine placements despite stagnant, nearly unnoticeable, growth for the past five years. I am not against the Org., for they encourage moral standards in agreement with scripture. But so does every other church in Christendom. The successes of the Org. in comparison are hardly worth mentioning. The is much about the Organization that is praiseworthy and good. Why are you still so incapable of recognizing the same in others who are trying so hard to serve God and follow Christ’s example? Be cautious that you are not counted as a reviler of righteous men on the day of Judgement (1st Cor. 6:9,10).

    Best wishes, MD

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  166. JimmyG says:

    Jdubforlife’s comment is typical of the JW apologist- bloated with WT jargon, the odd cherry picked scripture blah, blah, blah. The pseudonym chosen by this commenter says it all. Where is the evidence? A mind blinded by a cult, where reasoning and logic will can’t penetrate. The words used denote a person who is totally mind controlled. Using reasoning and logic, note how the comment stacks up:

    1. Matthew 24:14 is used to supposedly to prove that the preaching work commissioned by the WT and carried out at the expense of the nearly 8 million JWs is ‘worldwide’. Now ‘do the math (maths, GB)’. The combined populations of China and India total more than 2.5 billion (JW preaching in India is focused mainly on those who are already ‘christians’). Then there’s the middle east countries, North Korea etc. ‘Worldwide’? It would be generous to say that half the world’s population have even heard of Jehovah’s Witnesses, let alone spoken with them. But the WT’s leaders teach that for the crime of being born in these countries, they will be killed at Armageddon.
    2. “Preaching to some tribes that have never heard of god”. Really? Where is the evidence that this statement is true? And there must be more than one example, as the word ‘tribes’ is used.
    For people like Jdubforlife, Michael and Patrick, my advice is this- you have a brain, please start to use it. Don’t limit yourself to the ramblings of the ‘8 dukes’ of New York City. The world is a beautiful place, as are many of the people in it.

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    • Abba Guutuu says:

      JimmyG: But the WT’s leaders teach that for the crime of being born in these countries, they will be killed at Armageddon.

      On which scripture do they base their assertions?

      If JWs believe in Christ, why should they be afraid of Armageddon?
      Don’t you think they do not understand the difference between grace and law?
      Where did they get the concept that a man can save himself by keeping the law as no one has never done and could?

        (Quote)

      • JimmyG says:

        These are questions to put to the WT- good luck with that!

        I provide the following evidence for the highlighted statement of mine in Abba Guutuu’s above comment:

        “The King must put to death on earth those who have hardened themselves in sin and steadfastly stuck to the Devil’s organization. In this manner the ungodly human society that is outside the spiritual paradise of Jehovah’s worshipers will feel the blow administered by the “rod” of his judicial mouth. His decree of punishment will be executed upon them.” Mankind’s Salvation out of World Distress at Hand (1975) p 182 paragraph 31

        “There are billions of people who do not know Jehovah. Many of them in ignorance practice things that God’s Word shows to be wicked. If they persist in this course, they will be among those who perish during the great tribulation.” Watchtower 1993 Oct 1 p.19

        “Only Jehovah’s Witnesses, those of the anointed remnant and the “great crowd,” as a united organization under the protection of the Supreme Organizer, have any Scriptural hope of surviving the impending end of this doomed system dominated by Satan the Devil.” Watchtower 1989 Sep 1 p.19

        I have only used two quotes from WT literature, but I have many more along similar lines. These quotes are quite old, so has the WT softened its view on this? No! In a relatively recent talk by Anthony Morris the 111 (current member of the GB), he draws on his experience as a medic in the Vietnam war and some of the horrific sights he saw. For example he says and I quote:
        “I’ve seen what happens to humans when they’re mangled and you see it on TV and some of that….well, until you smell human flesh burning from a helicopter crash….people that look like, er, humans, like a hot dog on a grille, blackened and splitting open. I know what’s coming at Armageddon. Lotta dead people. Lotta dead people….it’s gonna be numbing for you. You think seeing a deer mangled on the side of the road from a truck that hit it, is upsetting? You see humans like that..so it’s gonna be numbing.”

        The Feb 15, 2014 WT draws on Jeremiah’s prophecy of those being slain from one end of the earth to the other and the birds being invited to eat the flesh of those who are not ‘Jehovah’s Witnesses’ as the 1989 WT puts it.

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  167. Abba Guutuu says:

    The name Jesus in Hebrew is Yehwehshuo or Yahshua – means Yahweh is salvation or Yahweh Savior. Jesus Christ is the name of God in the New Testament. He is the Alpha and the Omega or the Aleph and Tav (not translated) in Genesis 1:1. The correct translation should be in the beginning the A-Z God created the heavens and he earth.
    From the beginning, the invisible God spoke and appeared to men through His Logos (Eternal Word, the incarnate Christ). The Alpha and the Omega refers to Yahweh – which is the Lord Jesus Christ.
    In Isaiah 40:3, the Bible refers to Jesus as both Elohim and Yahweh. In Jeremiah 23:6, Jesus is called Jehovah-Tsidekenu or the Lord Our Righteousness. The scripture is very clear as to the oneness of Father God and God the Son.

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  168. Frank says:

    Jdub for life uses Adam and Eve as if they were real people…

    Can you give us some evidence of design?

    “The immune system is actually an astonishing array of structures and mechanisms designed to defend us from a wide variety of agents, including bacteria and viruses. The mechanisms, in turn, can be grouped into two complementary systems. The first mobilizes an attack on invading microbes within hours. The second takes several days to respond but targets the invaders like a well-aimed arrow. This second system also has a good memory, so that if a specific invader returns years later, this enemy will be met with a rapid response. The whole system works so well that often you do not even realize that you have been infected and effectively defended. Also amazing is the way the immune system distinguishes between foreign substances and the hundreds of cell types that make up our body”.

    A Biotechnologist Explains His Faith, February, 2014, page 11

    The above comment is from a scientist convert. Not surprisingly, what he claims actually proves that humanity was likely not ‘designed’ by a god. The fact is that the immune system could ONLY have evolved. Why? Common sense tells us that if the Bible describes the Earth was ‘very good,’ why was it such hostile place that God had to ‘design’ an internal system to protect the first man and woman from it?

    The same goes for our atmosphere. It too protects us from a hostile universe. Christians often refer to the universe in terms only of it growing and ‘pro-creating’ more heavenly bodies. We can now observe suns (stars) going supernova every ONE SECOND. The fact is, that planets and stars cannot be created unless others die and blow apart!

    Some design!

    Frank

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  169. JimmyG says:

    Welcome back Frank. Long time, no hear. This site has gone very quiet recently.

    Jdub for life is like most JW apologists, just quoting WT cliches. No actual thinking involved.

    I’ve wondered too, why God’s creations are described in Genesis as only ‘good’ or ‘very good’. Shouldn’t his creations be ‘excellent’ if they’re perfect? Why put Adam and Eve in such a hostile environment, thus the need for an immune system to ward off potentially fatal germs? Why would a perfect paradise for the first humans be a death trap, without immune systems to protect them?

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  170. Frank says:

    Does anyone know whether the Candace Conti case has been resolved? The last court date was 29th August! Has it been settled out of court or has the American judiciary just placed it in the ‘too hard’ basket?

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  171. Frank says:

    Hi Jimmy. Yes, the story of Adam and Eve could not realistically be historical. Also, don’t forget humans see at a certain light level and perceive the environment according to very specific settings. Additionally, all tools and technology has to be manufactured according to all these specific settings. Parsimoniously human beings could only have evolved; the immune system makes eloquent testimony to this fact.

    Frozen mammoths prove the Great Flood – really? Why could not a mammoth merely be the victim of an avalanche!

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  172. Frank says:

    Christianity presumes that not only was the earth made ‘imperfect’ by God (falls short of the glory of God) because of the sin of mankind, but also the universe! Energy cannot be created or destroyed, only converted. The universe must recycle the energy it has; that is finite. Humanity is an almost insignificant part of this universal ecology. All ‘scientific’ answers the Bible gives are correctly defined because they were observed and theorised. This is not surprising. They had no idea of germ-theory so disease and death were attributed to supernatural causes. This is not surprising.

    Frank

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  173. danielB says:

    Frank ,

    Romans 3:23 : ” For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God ” . It is not Christianity that presumes that the earth was made imperfect by God . It is some of the philosophies of men that presume that . Christianity doesn’t need to presume anything at all .

    On the record we have regarding Adam and Eve . . .

    The Bible’s story that we have on Adam and Eve is the realistic and true story . Speak against it if you like , but we will all come to agreement on the truth of the Bible , or we simply won’t be anymore .

    I think “Parsimoniously” is a big word that is one of those used to try and impress others . You know , one of those show-off words that make readers pull out their thesaurus to examine it’s meaning . . .

    Jimmy ,

    You said : ” Why put Adam and Eve in such a hostile environment, thus the need for an immune system to ward off potentially fatal germs? Why would a perfect paradise for the first humans be a death trap, without immune systems to protect them? ”

    It wasn’t the original paradise that was any sort of death trap . And when they were located into the garden of Eden it was not a hostile environment . Their immunities were sufficient .

    I hope that we can get past this blaming of God for the fall of humanity . He doesn’t deserve that .

    bro dan

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  174. JimmyG says:

    To DanielB. Are you trying to say that Frank is ‘trying to impress’ others by using a ‘show-off word?’ If so, just say it, don’t infer it. If you got your Thesaurus out,it’s beneficial, as you’ve expanded your vocabulary by one word.

    I would like to quote and then comment on your statement:

    “It wasn’t the original paradise that was any sort of death trap . And when they were located into the garden of Eden it was not a hostile environment . Their immunities were sufficient .

    I hope that we can get past this blaming of God for the fall of humanity . He doesn’t deserve that .”

    This is a ‘straw man’ comment. If you don’t know what this is, have a look on the following link:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man
    My comment had nothing to do with, as you put it, “blaming God for the fall of humanity’. My comment was in reaction to Frank’s previous comment so please re-read it.

    Also DanielB, are you saying that you know, based on actual evidence, that the Garden of Eden was not a hostile environment? Do you know something that we don’t? Present the evidence please. Your next sentence contradicts the former: “Their immunities were sufficient”. Why would they need ‘immunities’ at all, if the environment was not hostile?

    My comments were biology based (i.e. the need for an immune system in humans to ward off potentially fatal germs) and trying to make sense of this in the bible’s creation account of a ‘paradise Garden of Eden’, which was at best described as ‘very good’, not excellent’.

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  175. Frank says:

    Daniel, you attempt to create a false dichotomy (look it up) when you suggest that I can be “for” or “against” a concept. There is such a thing as agnosticism as well as atheism or theism.
    D
    aniel: “And when they were located into the garden of Eden it was not a hostile environment . Their immunities were sufficient.”

    Like many who don’t get the point, you similarly agree that man had/has an immune system. The consequence of this is that God created a hostile environment, otherwise why ‘create’ an immune system in the first place!. This cannot be got around as a concept as an immune system (antibodies, etc) could only have evolved.

    Romans 8: says: “20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21 that[h] the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.
    22 We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. 23 Not only so, but we ourselves…”

    The New World Translation says, man was “subjected to futility on the basis of hope.” Whether you or any other Christian likes it or not, Paul states that the God of the Bible is solely PHYSTICALLY responsible for the fall of man. Tell me, would there be a difference in behaviour and morality of a man dying of thirst and hunger and a man who is fully healthy?

    Do you imagine that Adam would have not thought more seriously about his ‘sin’ of ‘disobedience’ if he been informed about the FULL consequences of his actions if God had plainly told him “In the day that you eat from the tree you will surely die” also meant agonising sickness, disease, and painful death as well as that all of these would spread to endless generations that he didn’t even know he was capable of conceiving at the time? In other words the curse was not only on the perpetrator but on the entire species!

    Here’s another question to ponder: If God believes life is precious and sacred, why, in the Bible, does he shed so much human blood in his purpose to ‘reconcile man to himself’? Since asking people why God had many, many, Canaanite babies and children killed merely for being in the wrong place at the wrong time, I have received two notable answers – (1) because the Canaanites were demon-possessed, and (2) because God had waited 400 years to do so! It’s a free world, and people can believe what they want, but neither of these answers even start to explain the morality in this decision apparently from a God who claims, not only to be perfect, but personified love.
    Oh, and could you show me where the Bible says that God created Earth perfect (without flaw) and that man was created perfect (without flaw). Thanks.

    Frank

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  176. Frank says:

    Daniel, you attempt to create a false dichotomy (look it up) when you suggest that I can be “for” or “against” a concept. There is such a thing as agnosticism as well as atheism or theism.

    Daniel: “And when they were located into the garden of Eden it was not a hostile environment . Their immunities were sufficient.”

    Like many who don’t get the point, you similarly agree that man had/has an immune system. The consequence of this is that God created a hostile environment, otherwise why ‘create’ an immune system in the first place!. This cannot be got around as a concept as an immune system (antibodies, etc) could only have evolved.

    Romans 8: says: “20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21 that[h] the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.

    22 We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. 23 Not only so, but we ourselves…”

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  177. Frank says:

    Part 2:

    The New World Translation says, man was “subjected to futility on the basis of hope.” Whether you or any other Christian likes it or not, Paul states that the God of the Bible is solely PHYSTICALLY responsible for the fall of man. Tell me, would there be a difference in behaviour and morality of a man dying of thirst and hunger and a man who is fully healthy?

    Do you imagine that Adam would have not thought more seriously about his ‘sin’ of ‘disobedience’ if he been informed about the FULL consequences of his actions if God had plainly told him “In the day that you eat from the tree you will surely die” also meant agonising sickness, disease, and painful death as well as that all of these would spread to endless generations that he didn’t even know he was capable of conceiving at the time? In other words the curse was not only on the perpetrator but on the entire species!

    Here’s another question to ponder: If God believes life is precious and sacred, why, in the Bible, does he shed so much human blood in his purpose to ‘reconcile man to himself’? Since asking people why God had many, many, Canaanite babies and children killed merely for being in the wrong place at the wrong time, I have received two notable answers – (1) because the Canaanites were demon-possessed, and (2) because God had waited 400 years to do so! It’s a free world, and people can believe what they want, but neither of these answers even start to explain the morality in this decision apparently from a God who claims, not only to be perfect, but personified love.
    Oh, and could you show me where the Bible says that God created Earth perfect (without flaw) and that man was created perfect (without flaw).

    Thanks.

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  178. JimmyG says:

    Frank said: “This cannot be got around as a concept as an immune system (antibodies, etc) could only have evolved.”

    A creationist would say “God created humans with an immune system.” But this again raises the question, why the need for it, if as Daniel put it, when in the Garden of Eden Adam and Eve were NOT in a hostile environment?

    The Genesis account states at best, that God’s creations were ‘very good’. Is this expression supposed to denote perfection? Not in my understanding. Genesis is silent in regards to the word ‘perfection’. The concept of the earth and the first human pair being perfect is a presumption only.

    I have a similar problem with a God described as the personification of love ratifying the wholesale slaughter of particularly children, who die pointlessly for the sins of those entrusted with their care.

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  179. Frank says:

    That’s right, JimmyG, the immune system comes at the creative end of Natural Selection. If one wants to call this a miracle, then it’s a natural one, not a supernatural one. It gives mute testimony to how our species has survived and remains, for now, dominant.

    As to the Canaanite children, we see what we expect to see, a tribal god ordering the taking of land and the destruction of its inhabitants. Historically no surprises here either.

    Jehovahs’ Witnesses like all established religions are required to believe ‘six impossible things before breakfast’ as Douglas Adams put it.

    Frank

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  180. miscreant droid says:

    Hi Frank.
    I’ve given consideration to the matters you’ve pointed out as well. I won’t say that I’ve come to better conclusions than you, but I’m certain I’ve found an angle to the problem that you may not have considered. To begin with, humans aren’t particularly important in the grand scheme of God’s design. Angels, fallen and loyal alike, are higher than us, and therefore God’s concern for them must be greater than His concern for us. This is only personal conjecture, but if we accept this premise then we can be certain that larger political matters in the heavenly realms, to which we have no access, are to a certain extent being settled at our expense. The issue of loyalty, particularly when challenged by unexplained hardships, seems to be the strongest matter being settled for both them and us. I’ll point to the opening and closing chapters of Job for confirmation. Humans being subject to futility (that is, death through disease or infirmity) is therefore a small matter in a much larger picture. When we overestimate our importance to Him we humans can become frustrated by what we perceive as poor treatment. Consider, however, that we are still offered fantastic rewards for loyalty despite our insignificance.

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  181. Frank says:

    Hi Droid. You answer from a religious angle, and that’s all right; rather than from parsimony. You are dead right that humanity is not important from God’s point of view. The Bible clearly shows how people view him is more important to God, and the agony we personally suffer for the alleged sin of a distant ancestor is what reminds us that not only are we not the centre of the universe, but merely amoeba.

    The Anthropic Principle from a creationist point of view is that humans ARE the centre of the universe and it was made by God for us. From the evolutionary point of view we exist because Earth became propitious for our existence. This is why the immune system bears testimony parsimoniously to this ‘fact.’

    What you suggest, though, seems to place God, not only in the ‘divine tinkerer’ category, but fails to describe God as a person of “divine justice and love.” It means that we must ‘keep the faith’ despite no convincing material evidence for him (that couldn’t be explained otherwise by evolution)being made available and somehow finding it in our heart to love him despite being punched in the stomach by life – all on a promise that one day it will all be made ‘well.’

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  182. miscreant droid says:

    A fair, though pessimistic, summary. From a Christian perspective, however, the situation can be viewed in an optimistic light.

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  183. Frank says:

    Are you saying, Droid, that because a religious viewpoint consoles? Why is it you find parsimony pessimistic?

    It is true, Christianity paint a ‘better’ picture, but if it prevents someone from making healthy secular decisions because of a particular religion’s interpretation, how ultimately will it benefit someone?

    Frank

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    • miscreant droid says:

      My last message got eaten by the ether- if it pops up later, ignore it, since I’m just sending the same thing with nearly exact wording:

      Thanks for responding Frank,
      I don’t think you’ve given DanielB’s argument a fair chance. Life is an extreeeeeemely complicated system, the complexities of which we’ve only begun to uncover very recently. The next generation of great thinkers (possibly within our lifetimes) may even find our current understanding of living systems laughable. That humans possess an immune system does not mean that God was prepping us for futility, but instead only assures that humans were designed to live in cooperation with things in the living realm. The failures of that immune system ‘after’ getting ousted agree with the assessment that “on that day you will surely die.” Parsimony, in this case, is settled by the Law.

      In regards to the tendency of religious institutions encouraging poor secular decisions in its proponents, well, it’s not as if Christians weren’t warned about how short-sighted and self-serving those taking the lead in God’s name would be (Matt. 23:1-4). But on top of that, the entire book of Ecclesiastes points to the futility of our secular lives anyway. The whittled message being, “the secular world is here for you to enjoy, but the only portion of your life that has legitimate meaning is the time spent contemplating and serving God.” In the loooooong run, therefore, some goofball at the podium who says not to get a decent education won’t have much of an effect on a Christian’s life (in whatever realm that ends up being).

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  184. JimmyG says:

    I take it Frank that using the word ‘parsimony’ in this context you mean:

    “Adoption of the simplest assumption in the formulation of a theory or in the interpretation of data, especially in accordance with the rule of Occam’s razor.”

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  185. Frank says:

    Hi Droid. I think you may be misunderstanding my answer about the immune system. You are coming from the presumption of creation. I am saying that when converted JW becomes so from a scientific view, his argument doesn’t float because the immune system COULD ONLY HAVE EVOLVED. So trying to reconcile the immune system before and after the fall of mankind is irrelevant.

    The point of parsimony, or the Occam’s Razor argument is that the EVIDENCE points to evolution, thus potentially negating the need for God’s creation. I should mention that I have what I think is a good theistic argument…just to prove I can argue from both points of view, though few here believe I can’t be agnostic because I find non-theistic arguments more intellectually satisfying.

    Frank

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  186. miscreant droid says:

    I see what you mean. We were at cross purposes then. I suppose most of here aren’t overly concerned with purely secular viewpoints, so I misunderstand you a lot. I thought the discussion was in relation to why an immune system requiring adaptation disproves the need for God. I’ll have to look more carefully at what you wrote. Thanks for responding.

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  187. Frank says:

    Thanks Droid, the immune system is the end result of nature naturally-selecting species that can survive under any and all natural environments. This is what the biotechnologist in the Awake! magazine should have reasoned. If he was going to propose the immune system was designed he would have had to overcome the naturalistic argument for why humans (and other species) have one. Yes, nature ‘designs’ but it is a natural process of selection; hence there are no verifiable human footprints among the dinosaur footprints. Nature recycles very efficiently.

    If you want to hear my theistic argument (and the problems with it) why God could have ‘designed’ the immune system, let me know.

    Frank

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  188. Frank says:

    Hi again, Droid. Most people, at least in the West, do not think their secular lives are futile. They create purpose by how they attempt to live their lives whether theistic or otherwise.

    I and my family were part of what I call ‘the lost generation.’ The WTBTS continuously kept us accepting that their personal interpretation about 1975 etc was not only Biblical but direct from God. To date, no satisfying acknowledgment, let alone an apology has been made for their presumptuousness. All we get is missable footnotes stating that as they were ‘rightly motivated’ their zeal for righteousness should be explanation enough. As if this WASN’T enough, they then attempted to blame God himself by claiming that God was sifting his organisation! For this to be a true statement, it implies God was passing false information for dissemination to all Christ’s disciples!

    For our generation, sensible secular decisions were not a choice for those trapped in this paradigm.

    Perhaps you may now understand why I am at least a sceptic.

    Frank

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  189. Frank says:

    It’s now 20 March. Have we said all that is to say on this site, I wonder?

    Frank

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  190. JimmyG says:

    It’s the 10th of March where I am, but I get your point Frank. Where has everyone gone to on this site? Last one leaving, please turn out the light.

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  191. Frank says:

    I,m from the future, jimmy. It,s still quiet here.

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  192. Alien1313 says:

    Let me say something to the JWs out there. Let me speak from a person, that was born into this religion. Let me tell you, that I’ve been on both sides. Let me say that your side, isn’t as beautiful as you think. Growing up I always wondered, why we never heard good things come the mouths of the brothers, about the outside world sorta speak. Why everything was a scare tactic. “Today a woman got shot at the local gas station. Today was a huge earthquake killing 5,000 people. This is the sign that the end is near.” Why would you want to scare people, tricking them that of they don’t have enough faith in something the same thing will happen to them, or the earth is going to end. Trust me I’ve read the bible I’ve studied as well. I don’t like to be scared. I like to be at peace with myself, I like to be loved and to love. They aren’t teaching to how to do something but to be something, that I know some of you aren’t. To be fake with yourself, to not actually love one another just to be nice. If a man came up to you and said, ” do you have any spare change?” You know you do, and this guy looks filthy, maybe scary looking as well. Would you give him your spare change. Be honest with yourself. If the answer is no, why? Is it because he looks filthy, and scary, or because you don’t know him, or he’s just lazy? What if I said this man didn’t choose to be homeless. The man had lost his job because of an injury, that wasn’t his fault. He couldn’t prove that it wasn’t his fault; he lost his apartment, after that of living in his car he lost that too. He continued to look for jobs, and prayed to god something wonderful would happen. But as the years went on his injury got worse, and he couldn’t find work because of it no one would hire him, he’d be a lose if they did. I’m not judging you because I already know what JWs do they judge people, use scare tactics, and make you be something your not. When I was studying and going to meeting regularly the watch tower would come up, I would just listen, not answer. When the woman I was studying told me that I need to participate, I felt like was being judged, that I wasn’t being what they wanted me to be. That’s not right, I’m sorry I didn’t know I was being graded on it. And when I didn’t participate she said she was disappointed in me. How could I when I’m being judged by a whole congergation? How can I? I went to a funeral, after I left, some one I knew died I went. They asked me when I was coming back? I’m like for real are you serious right now, this is a funeral and you want to ask me when am I coming back to the faith? Hmm never and have some respect for the dead. That’s wrong. Another thing is, if you are learning about the bible you don’t need crutch to learn it, especially when it’s not your words and it’s some body else’s interpretation. That’s how you know it’s a cult? Brain wash. I got out and when I did I realized how happy I was, how stronger I was, how more I loved god with out fear. Holidays might be bad in your eyes, but it’s a way to be with family to socialize, to have fun enjoy, to be around family that love you, and giving that up is giving up your family. If you don’t see that I’m terrible sorry for you. So you may say all these things that I’m wrong and this and that, but in reality, life is too short to live based on an organization, that could be wrong. That you wasted your life for the end of days. You didn’t get to have fun. Life is beautiful have fun, kiss a stranger, get drunk, sky dive, say the f word, celebrate Christmas with people you love, be honest with yourself, play violent video games, get a tattoo. Read about strange things, be at peace love and to love. Life is beautiful and my god loves you no matter what. That is you should be preaching.

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  193. The End says:

    JW struggle has finally run it’s course and served it’s purpose for me long ago. Just popped in to see if you had come up with anything new and refreshing…. but NO, it’s turned into the Frank and His Amazing Anti-God Viewpoints site.
    Pathetic!!!!
    Get out everyone before his peculiar breed of sophistry and pseudo intellectualism has you worshiping his viewpoint.
    JJ has become a new age hippie and thinks everyone’s opinion is valid. Peace love and nonsense abounds.

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    • JJ says:

      You are free to come to the JWStruggle site and voice your opinion. I respect all people’s thoughts and ideas because we all have value in God’s eyes.

      You can call me a hippie or whatever other pejoratives you care to drum up it actually made me smile when I read your comment. Thank you for that Mr. End!

      It amazes me how many folks act as if we have met and they know me lol. I just recently made a new YT video about why this blog has helped me so much and why we all gradually leave behind things that are no longer necessary in our lives… We all have an arc we travel and as all people I’m trying my best to follow the path God wants for me to travel.

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  194. Frank says:

    The End, are you afraid of me? Or is it that you fear my diverse viewpoint as an agnostic? Do you really know how silly you sound?

    Frank

    PS. If you aren’t afraid of me and what I say, please actually provide an argument and refrain for you silly pejoratives.

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  195. Frank says:

    The End. I can show you something on the Net that will make your stomach puke if you would like something ‘new’ to cogitate.

    These images will help you understand why I am presently so ‘anti-God.” It is with good reason

    Frank

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  196. Frank says:

    This material is visual, graphic, uncensored, and anyone can come across it. If you knew what it is, you may understand why we must all be skeptical about religious paradigms and not fall asleep to the dangerous, and deadly implications of allowing unrestrained religious ‘freedom.’

    It is so horrific, the images will stay with you if you stay too long. It is my personal belief that the next generation should view this carnage to raise their consciousnesses for the future.

    Oh, and I found the logical pathway to this disgraceful murder in pretty much all religion, at least the potential as this ridiculous situation could come about only through unchecked theism.

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  197. JimmyG says:

    “And in ‘the end’ the love you take, is equal to the love you make.” The Beatles, 1969

    ‘Hippie’ enough for you, ‘the end’? I notice you don’t have “anything new and refreshing” to add. Just a bit of name calling and then away you run. Very mature of you.

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  198. Frank says:

    “In the End” is just another delusional bell-ringer, Jimmy, not worth the bother.

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  199. Katy says:

    This is such great information.

    My story is that I am not a JW but am dating a JW which is odd because they do not believe in dating and/or communicating with others outside of there congregations or in the words that were told on to me a “worldly” people. We are completely in love but have this one issue that is not small.. I have no interest at all to convert as I have been shown many lies and beyond that have been call the devil, the devil tickling his ear and persuading him away from the truth. Just nasty ugly unGodly words and statements. What and how should I help him continue to realize that what he has been taught is wrong? Currently and prior to being with me has lived a double life as most JWs that I know have because he is afraid of being shunned. Or should I just hang the cap up and walk away. We travel together and are best friends which is so hard to find. I am just at a point where I have forgiven him for not living his truth for many years and need to move to he next step which is marriage but I know I need to be by his side keep on showing him that he is not wrong and to not feel GUIlTY. Would it be wrong to invite him to my church which is a non denominational? Any honest feedback is greatly appreciated

    Also, I had a JW tell me I was the devil tickling his ear and that she needed his name because she needed to report him to the elders. What is that all about? I obviously looked at her like she was crazy because I am a Godly women and have never heard such a thing.

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  200. I am a jehovahs wittness and I am 12 years old and what we beilve in is true

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    • JimmyG says:

      Hi Summer. When you say that you are a JW, are you actually baptised? If not, then you are not strictly a JW. If your parents are JWs, then you the child of JW parents.

      Just a thought you might like to think about- just because you say what you believe is true, doesn’t make it automatically true. You no doubt have reasons for saying this, but what is the ‘truth’ you say you, have based on?

      Many children of JW parents get baptised very young, some much younger than you. Unfortunately children this young are too immature to make such an important, life altering decision. If you are not baptised, there’s plenty of time. No need to rush. All the best.

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      • frank says:

        Hi Jimmy. Unfortunately, JW parents have a sense of ownership of their children and there is a presumption that the next generation will not only accept the indoctrination of this fundamentalist religion, but it is by divine right. This, of course, is noticeable in all fundamentalist religions.

        It seems there was no point in God creating mankind with a conscience of the ability to use its critical faculties; it’s all mapped out, complete with guilt-trip. Summer is no exception.

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        • jimmyG says:

          To quote Summer: “I am a jehovahs wittness and I am 12 years old and what we beilve in is true”.

          I think I can safely say that Summer has not read my reply and Frank’s comment. My guess is Summer has stumbled upon this website accidentally, read a few things and gone into ‘automatic’, thinking that it’s ‘critical of God’s organisation’, quickly left the above statement feeling she has to make a defence for her beliefs and disappeared. As commented on before, this is the ‘door bell ringing’ technique many JW apologists use- ring the doorbell (make a quick comment) and run like hell.

          JWs much older than Summer do this as well. At least we can excuse her, taking into account her age. But according to Geoffrey Jackson and his companions on the GB, children much younger than Summer can make the life altering decision to get baptised, not having a clue what they’re getting themselves in for. As is demonstrated in Summer’s simple statement, the cult indoctrination starts very early on the WT org. How sad.

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          • frank says:

            Of course, simply saying, “My religion is true,” is not a defence of anything. I keep hearing this expression; others are, “Prove that atheism is true,” “I think theism is true.” What can ‘true’ mean in these cases? 2 plus 2 will always equal 4, but, “I think the Earth is being visited by flying saucers,” based on the actual evidence, is rightly open to question, mirth, and criticism. Even if Psalms says, “Only the fool says there is no God,” what does this prove?

            When it comes from a child, I feel its as Richard Dawkins says – its a form of child abuse. Plying children with spurious tales of death and destruction, a god who can save, but only does so if you’re like him to an acceptable degree; and that all statements made by a group of very human and unlearned individuals must be accepted without question or divine punishment awaits, can only bode badly for the future generation of this planet. Religion does have some good, but all too often, the bad outweighs it.

            Summer needs to be like one 18-year-old girl who said when asking a question in a debate about the existence of God, “Hello, I’m 18 and I don’t know what I believe yet.”

            This truly honours a brain that took millions of years to evolve.

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  201. Rijan Thapa says:

    Jehovah witness donot believe in Trinity … I am not jehovah witness but , its being difficult for me …

    can someone please tell , Is jesus god or son of god …. if jesus is god then why did he said ” my father is powerful than me ” , … why he prayed with his father ?

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    • C M says:

      We all must find our own answers, some believe in the trinity, others do not. My own beliefs are sacred to me, but my research tells me there is much more to the bible because it is not complete, there are many other holy scriptures I have read that I feel everyone should read so as to form their own opinions and beliefs.

      C M

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