Written by veritas re, taken from: http://www.paradisecafediscussions.net/showthread.php?tid=6722&page=2

I have a theory about how persons are able to “see” real Truth.

13 And on the sabbath day we went forth outside the gate beside a river, where we were thinking there was a place of prayer; and we sat down and began speaking to the women that had assembled. 14 And a certain woman named Lyd´i•a, a seller of purple, of the city of Thy•a•ti´ra and a worshiper of God, was listening, and Jehovah opened her heart wide to pay attention to the things being spoken by Paul. Acts 16:13-15

In the above case Lydia was evidently an Israelite gathered with others on the sabbath, and Paul’s preaching was able to make thetechnical connections between the Law covenant and the fulfillment in the New covenant and the Messiah, but it was YHWH who “opened her heart” to understand and she became a believer and was baptized.

So what evidently happened was that the woman had the “heart condition” that lent itself to “see”, but the Holy Spirit had to unlock her mental ability to “get it” since as we know many Jews heard Paul and were not able to understand. This describes Jesus’ words in John when he said that the Holy Spirit will lead persons into all the truth. So what I get from this is that until the Spirit acts on a person, they will not “see”, no matter how much factual reasoning is presented to them.

It’s not out of line to discuss logically with persons as the normal course of reasoning from the Scriptures as we are admonished to do, but I believe that the deciding factor in someone actually “seeing” is beyond the scope of mere words and logic. The JWs are at a great disadvantage in that they have been programmed by the WT to automatically reject anything that comes from outside their accepted “channel” of information, so the direct logical approach is likely facing an uphill battle, and the person behind the approach faces being attached the label of “apostate” and cut off from further contact and or anything that person says forever seen as suspicious.

That’s the case with certain of my family where I in my early not so tactful hair on fire years over amped on occasions – and wound up alienating myself from most of my family that are still hardcore JWs. They suspect either I am off my rocker, even possibly an “apostate”, and we cannot have in depth conversations about anything because they cannot deal with the feeling I am going to talk about some topic they do not want to hear about. So we ‘talk about the weather’ to keep it cordial.

We should be sympathetic to that since most of us here will recall having that mindset – not accepting religious material from a person of another faith structure, limiting discussions to a one sided presentation where we were right and “they” were wrong. I know I can’t believe how one sided I was – “Hey – I HAVE the Truth” – “why would I want to entertain anything less than real Truth?” At that time I was like my brothers and sisters are now, spiritually *myopic, predisposed to think along stock lines of reasonings having predetermined conclusions.

So, my theory is that persons simply are not able to “see” until the Holy Spirit zaps them, and that this does not happen until persons start into the “seeking and knocking” process. I think that persons simply are not ready for the Spirit to show them anything until they themselves begin asking the hard questions, such questions that are generated by things like the UN NGO scandal, the SL’s, the unbelievable stretch of reasoning that the “1914” doctrine is taking on as we get ever closer to 100 years since Jesus supposedly returned, the ever clamping down mantra of total compliance to “the F&DS”, etc.

So I believe my best shot with the rank and file JWs is to have love for them, knowing that I went around for over thirty years in the dark while thinking I had spiritual things aced – and – how it was that I began to “see” via certain cataclysmic occurrences that caused me to start knocking and seeking. It seems that is the common factor here, that persons bump up against some inconsistency in “the truth” and begin asking the right questions – and – start getting the answers.

The “questions” starts a very difficult Journey into spiritual oblivion, and the “answers” at first don’t fit because of the preconceived notions. So the “keep on seeking and knocking” phase has to continue in order for the “answers” to begin to make any sense, and some of the xjw crowd out here don’t stick with it long enough for the Spirit to give them the answers since they do not keep on knocking. Jesus said the door of understanding would be opened, but he didn’t say how long persons would have to beat on the door.

This is why I believe these dbs to be a critical piece of the “seeing” process, since the persons out here are ones with JW backgrounds that have come out of spiritual darkness and are able to reason on issues from a loving JW perspective such that when ones in the dark start looking, bingo, the Spirit can bring them here into a world of persons that understand matters from that perspective and that openly discuss all topics of faith without fear. I know for me these dbs were a Godsend because I was stumbled bad and could not get the answers from the stock channels – including writing and faxing all members of the then sitting GB as well as confronting local elders that I believed could help me – all to no avail. So the work being done on these dbs in my view is one that we all should feel really good about for being online and on time to help the next batch of persons get free from spiritual slavery to men.

Jesus said he knows who his sheep are – my theory is that when the time is right Jesus sends them the means to “see” as he said would happen via the Holy Spirit. Time is not important to YHWH and the Son, and they are great with picking the perfect time for moving our pointy heads into the realms of real Truth. One of the qualities of the faithful and discreet slave of the parable is that they apportioned “food at the proper time”. So I suspect this confirms the time element, and that our words will be most effective when the time is right for persons to “see”, as the Spirit leads.

v r

Ophthalmology . pertaining to or having myopia; nearsighted.

unable or unwilling to act prudently; shortsighted.

lacking tolerance or understanding; narrow-minded.

Rating 4.00 out of 5

12 Comments on A theory about how persons are able to “see” real Truth

  1. serein says:

    i beleive at the moment that we all get holy spirit when we start seeking and wanting to know and understand the bible and whats in store for us,some have told me that we need men to teach us cos god gave them the holy spirit to help us understand, but i think we all get that holy spirit to understand if we ask for it and search he knows our hearts and minds, i think we dont need men to be teaching us unless there are people ou there who dont understand anytjing and ask us to help them to, but thats it i dont think anyone knows the whole truth only god and hel reveal all in the end,i think all religion and including christianity with all its diff groups are also corrupted as the devil is corrupting ALL,god understands our limited search as he knows we are only human and the devils out to corrupt us even the chosen ones, so we should keep clear of any groups who claim to know the truth and follow our thoughts and reasonings and pray to jehovah everyday for his holy spirit to guide us and help us. im on the fence and im staying on my own path and il search look and listen to diff people but im not going to be compleatly convinced in to any group that they are totaly right and i should be with them to be saved or cos they are right and i need them.


  2. serein says:

    if babylon the great is religion and its going to be destroyed i think it means all religiouse groups including christian as jesus is seeking the chossen ones out of the world and he means out of the world not only one religiouse group out of it, he means all diff race of peoples from all over in it no matter what religion as its our hearts and minds hes searching out, i think when it says getout of her it mneans get out of all religion and its diff groups be his people not mans people not mans interpretations of what his people should be or should be doing or cos its got jehovahs name or cos thye follow russel or cos they what ever else.yes christian means we follow christs teachings but dosnt mean anything if we not folowing him but mans,
    he wants us to do what he told us to do and get on with it,
    not follow this or that group cos they teaching truth be with them to be saved,
    i was told by another group that not all need to be baptised only the chosen ones for heaven need to be,then i was told by another group that we all need to be baptised and both sounded good points but who do i beleive? if i go ask 10 diff christian groups theyl all have there own interpretations on this subject.so then cos im not a scolar on the bible and im learning all the time new things i dont know whos right i have to pray to god ask for holy spirit to guid me and not man.personaly i beleive i dont need to be baptised in to any perticular group only that once i am baptised im ok,if im not i think im still ok,my children arnt does that mean they are doomed cos they are not,iv been baptised twice by diff groups does that mean im not saved cos they wernt the right one to be doing it, no i dont think so.i think gods looking at us in us and not wether we got baptised by a group out of christianity who claim to have the truth and that we have to be with them to be saved.we have to be with jehovah to be saved in are hearts.


  3. andrew says:

    Hi serein,
    If we compare todays christian denominations with the old nation of Israel we see a lot of similarities. Just back then there were in many occasions few faithful israelites, at times only a few thousand among millions of unfaithful. There were israelites who lied, fornicated, robbed the defenseless etc.

    Today many who claim to be christian do all the things that the unfaithful israelites did back then. The fact of being an israelite did not mean they knew Jehovah. Today just because someone carries the label of christian does not mean they know Christ.

    In Jesus day there many different beliefs among the Jews. The Pharisees and Saduccees could hardly have had a greater difference in their beliefs, but they were all Israelites all God’s people. But Jesus called them the lost sheep of Israel. Also today the different denominations have many different understandings of the scriptures but all are in Jesus’ sheepfold. However we could say that most are the “lost sheep of christianity”.

    Study the bible. Try to understand correct doctrine, but remember what is most important. Jesus said the purpose of the whole Mosaic Law was to incite love for God and neighbor. We can probably conclude the purpose of the greek scriptures is the same. Are worship to God happens every day in how we live our life. When we say “thank you”. When we remain calm when our boss or our spouse is blameing us for something we didn’t do. When we help our elderly neighbor shovel snow from his driveway. When we buy the homeless person breakfast etc. when we do those things we are worshipping God. Of course we must also have faith and recognize that it isn’t by these works we saved but by Jesus blood. When we have faith and love in our hearts the works just come automatically.


  4. JJ says:

    Andrew what a great comment and counsel for all of us. Thank you for your insight and your contributions on the site. Its ironic to me that the training and the experience you and I and many others have received from our years as faithful JWs and public speakers and ministers has actually borne fruit in many ways. Jah and Christ get the credit and the honor! Any and all of us can be used by the holy spirit to upbuild and encourage. Sometimes we forget that.


  5. Amos says:

    Hi Serein,

    I will add a little, in support of Andrew’s excellent reply to you.

    Firstly, I think that you’ve summed it up very well yourself. I will also say not to be concerned regarding your children, as this is the time when the anointed are being gathered, & this is by the “will of God”. Whoever are not thus chosen in this age, will always be given the opportunity to accept YHWH during the millennial age.

    With regard to “being taught by men”, I will say the following;
    I believe that we, “the saints” all teach each other any time we converse, as we do here. I do not hold to the view that we should have a “clergy class”, regardless of the label you put on them.
    I do believe that it is apropriate to have “elders & deakons” if the class we attend is large enough & warrants it. These do not make up a clergy class, but they are to be “helpers for the flock”, according to the 1st century scriptural example. It must be noted that the “gifts of the Spirit” are varied, & are applied to both male & female, as God chooses them to be given.

    All those of like faith need each other for encouragement & upbuilding, & to help one another to progress in our faith.

    As suggestion, find a copy of “Young’s Analytical Concordance”. This has almost every word appearing in the KJV, & every place in the bible that it is used, this means you can follow right through the entire bible on a given topic, & see for yourself exactly what the scriptures say. Remember also that the Holy Spirit, will guide you into truth, when you prayerfully study the bible, “with an open mind & desirous of finding the truth”.

    Please remember, we are all here to help you if we can, that is we can help you find the scriptures that will answer your questions.

    BTW, enjoy your trip, as you are in for untold blessings & joy.



  6. serein says:

    hi amos when u say we need elders and decons i know it says it in the scriptures but back then they had the truth still and now im not so sure who has it, i feel if i start belonging to a group and have them telling me what they think that il get missled again, i dont feel comfortable with it.but im learning and searching and hope one day i can over come this feeling of despare of not knowing who to listen to and get council,


  7. serein says:

    amos id like to know why the bs beleive that in the reserection theres gona be diff stages of groups coming back like the great company anciant worthys and little flock, im not understanding them very well but dont want to say as il get bombarded with there theorys of the bible and truth,i dont understand the bits about the ones that dint quite make it to 144000 becoming angels still but ones above the angels allready there and below the 144000, and then the rest on earth and that the ancient worthys come after everyone else i mean i dont beleive it to be right at all, i think some will stay on earth to help us but nt all i think theyl deff have the heavenly hope over us, im so puzzeld by what they beleive it makes me hard to want to listen to them when they say things like this with no deff scriptuel suport i mean it then just becomes there interpretaions instead.


    • Amos says:

      Serein, I may not have expressed myself well enough regarding my views on elders. I don’t believe that they are essential, but because they are spoken of by Paul, can be appointed by each group if they so choose. If you have elders, this doesn’t mean that they take the same roll as ministers, pastors & elders as in the churches including the JWs.
      As the entire body of Christ are on the same level, (including sisters), the elders would only be more like a chairman & not one who would get up & teach the rest of the group with all the others sitting in pews.
      There are no backroom meetings, as everything is openly discussed before the whole group.

      The home church movements are a good example of what I think the procedure should be, & are loosely fashioned on the pattern as set out in the NT of the first century.
      They first meet in a home, generally over a community meal & relaxing conversation, then beign their meeting with prayer, they usually sit in a circle or around the table so everyone can look at each other while talking, thus face to face. Everyone are included in the discussion, either reading the bible topically or verse by verse & then discussing it. On occasion their may be one person who would give a talk, & this would then be discussed by the group following this. While the entire meeting would be orderly, it would not be regimented.
      The whole purpose for the meetings are to upbuild the entire group, & not for any one person to push their own ideas, unless these are supported by scripture, & collectively are accepted.

      This is just an outline of how it appears the meetings were being conducted in the Apostles time.


  8. Amos says:

    Serein, concerning the resurrection of the saints & AW’s. I understand what the BS’s on the other forum are saying about different stages of resurrection, & as you say they don’t supply any scriptures to support this view, & this is because there are none in the bible. Simply put, it’s a man made belief.

    What I have said about the AW’s being part of the elect/anointed, is what I have come to understand the bible to teach, & this may be right or wrong. I have never set it out as absulute truth. I was first alerted to this by another brother, & studied it myself following that, it just makes sense to me.

    Where the 144,000 & the Great Crowd are concerned, myself & many others see this as a very clear understanding of Revelation, it’s just a matter of comparing verse with verse, & the bible explains itself. There is no need to try to build a doctrine about it, as it is very clearly visible in the verses.

    This becomes very evident when you do a study of the Greek words, & their translation into English. As time permits, I intend to post an article here that will explain this view, quoting the Greek words with the Strong’s explanaitions. When you do the study, imagination doesn’t come into it.

    A problem arises when a new thought like this is expressed, as this will completely shake our previous beliefs & may then also prove that what we have always believed is wrong/untruth.

    This has another effect, it can then raise the question; “How much else do I have been told & believe that is wrong?”
    Most people can’t handle any change, & they seem to forget that what they believe “NOW” was once a “NEW” belief for them. They have a difficulty adjusting to any new views. This is why organizations like the WTS are carefull when changing doctrines, & developed the “new light” statement. They seem to forget that at one time the “old light” that they’re just replacing with “new light” was once also “NEW” itself, & this has been a stumbling block with them. Any who can think for themselves, like most of the brothers on here, have realized this.

    I suppose the bottom line is, “Do we want to believe what the BIBLE says, or do we want to believe what we are told to believe.”

    It breakes my heart, to think that I was once involved in teaching belifs that I now see as pure heresy, on many doctrines.


  9. Jolly Roger says:

    I’m not sure if I can agree with the “Zap”ing part, as my experience has led me to believe that our human mind is quicker, more subtle, and more vast than we will even dare to begin to realize. Although I am certain that Jehovah does, indeed, pick and choose whom he will allow to “see” truth, the factors have much more to do with the efforts, and the direction of those efforts, by the Zappee rather than some arbitrary use of a “magic wand” by the Zapper.

    The truth is what it is because of what it is, not because we can “see” it. (Those who by their nature do the things of the law, are a law unto themselves.)

    Sounds stupid doesn’t it? I mean, “it is what it is” – well, duh! (Who am I, Popeye?) I don’t know much, but I can assure you that if you are waiting to be zapped so that the Bible will become “clear” to you, you should never, ever, attempt to learn Calculus.

    Some things are just hard to do, difficult to learn, counter-intuitive, and as such, require sustained effort over a long period of time if they are to be truly learned. If you take a Calculus course (or pretty much any academic endeavor), it will be taught in a “monkey see, monkey do” fashion, whereby the student can learn how to pass the tests, and thus, pass the course; however, if a student really wants to learn the discipline so that it will become useful to/for him, he will inevitably find himself shut into his room for whole weekends going over and over and over the material until it finally begins to sink in, and the student will begin to “get it”.

    The Bible and God’s truth are no different. If a person is not really interested in God, or the truth of things, they will study only until they hit that first “inconsistency”, and then they will quit in frustration, usually declaring that the whole thing is a load of bunk and silly and useless anyway.

    But most of us are told about the goings on at the first Pentacost, and it unfolds like some incident out of “The Sorcerer’s Apprentice”. One second these common men are common, and the next, Zap!, they are able to speak multitudes of languages and begin preaching effectively and on and on. But, wait a minute, weren’t these the same guys who had previously been able to cure sick people? Weren’t they reported as being immune to snake bites, water walkers, even being able to actually cast out spirit creatures from possessed folks? Gosh, multi-multilingualism would be child’s play, wouldn’t it? But Jesus said that he was going to send a helper and, by golly, he did.

    But, instead of thinking that something external is going to Zap you, that there already exists abilities and understandings and sight that need only be triggered to become apparent (or “manifest” if you like the cliche). The “trick” is finding the triggers.

    Hey, here’s a question: what is the (literary) climax of the Bible?


    • Amos says:

      So may I ask, what’s your point Jolly Roger?

      How are you contributing to the discussion?

      Why would a “christian” need to concern themselves with…”the (literary) climax of the Bible?” Why not just accept it as “THE Word of God?”

      AND, to think that…”something external is going to Zap you”, is way beyond the beliefs of any true christian. That’s NOT what it’s all about. (which is another subject altogether)

      Finally, “The Sorcerer’s Apprentice” is not how I see Pentecost.


      • Jolly Roger says:

        The “Zap”ping is not of my origin, The original discussion began with:

        “So, my theory is that persons simply are not able to “see” until the Holy Spirit zaps them, and that this does not happen until persons start into the “seeking and knocking” process.”

        and I was merely remarking to it, which, as I recall the rules of a discussion, is what was asked of me. Now, whether it “… is way beyond the beliefs of any true christian” or not, I cannot say, nor, I doubt, can you.

        “Finally, “The Sorcerer’s Apprentice” is not how I see Pentecost” Of course not, you probably haven’t been zapped yet.

        Why would a “christian” need to concern themselves with…”the (literary) climax of the Bible?” Why not just accept it as “THE Word of God?” Good question, but then, why would a christian concern himself with anything? Why not just accept everything you are told, who cares how weird or bizarre or wrong it might be, just read the Bible and you’ll be fine, right? Too bad we can’t get a hold of a taste or two of Jesus’ blood and some left over flesh, because he did say unless we ate and drank of his flesh and blood, we are all just hopeless corpses, waiting to fall down, right?

        The Bible may be the Word of God, but that doesn’t make it magic. It is a piece of literature, that is, communication delivered in written form, and as such, it must obey certain rules or it doesn’t make any sense.

        The words used in the literature must be understandable or the work is nonsense. The words can rhyme and be non-sensical on purpose as part of the entertainment factor, i.e. Dr. Seuss, but if it is a serious work for grown ups, the words must be valid. Next, the words have to be set in a certain syntactical order, or stuff funny of not meaning nothing can understandable be frustration of there causing. Those rules are basic, although, as the human language differs, say, from Greek to English, the syntactical rules must change as well. These rules collectively, are known as grammar, and have been set down so that the clearest, most most accurate data transfer can be accomplished. Unfortunately, there are no CRC checks with human language.

        Now, that is just the basic part. When you get to literature, the rules broaden, but are still there. Literature needs a beginning, a middle, and an end (as simple as that sounds) and it must have a theme. The theme of a literary work is the guiding principle of why it was written and what it is communicating about. A grocery list has a theme: what we need from the store. Moby Dick has a theme: revenge is it’s own undoing. And, gasp, even the Bible has a them: Paradise Lost, Paradise Regained.

        But another, usually quite important aspect of literature is the Climax, which is defined as the point to which the story flows to and , after it is accomplished, the rest of the story flows from. as detailed in the dictionary- climax: (in a dramatic or literary work) a decisive moment that is of maximum intensity or is a major turning point in a plot. Now, in the case of an historical work, like, say, the Bible, the climax will be a really, really great indicator of what point(s) the author is trying to drive home. By way of example, if you were going to write a history of WWII, you might set the climax as D-Day, or, if you were Russian, you might set it at the Battle of Stalingrad, or the Battle of Kursk. If your history was from the aspect of strength through technical advancement, you might climax your book on the advancement of airborne radar. If you were a hippie and writing about “man’s inhumanity to man” you might climax with the fire-bombing of Dresden, or Hiroshima.

        Now, since we are all agreed on who the ultimate author of the Bible really is, it would seem important to discern what the climax of His communication is, so that a more accurate, realistic, and knowledgeable understanding might be forthcoming. Now, take a quick second and review the title of this discussion…now, go look up the climax of the Bible, it is best described at John 18:38, “Pilate said to him: ‘What is truth?'”

        Now, just for fun, consider John 18:38 with the first part of the Bible’s theme.


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