1914 may become a difficult date to defend as time goes on. How will it's defenders address this problem?

Most students of the Bible as well as those that are familiar with Jehovah’s Witnesses realize the problems surrounding the date 1914. Biblical calculations claiming to point to specific dates in history have, without exception, either been proved wrong or have simply not come to pass because they are far in the future. Sir Isaac Newton, as quoted in the article “The Shoulders of Giants” said this about end-time calculations:

The time times and half time [Mentioned in Revelation] do not end before 2060. …. It may end later, but I see no reason for its ending sooner. This I mention not to assert when the time of the end shall be, but to put a stop to the rash conjectures of fanciful men who are frequently predicting the time of the end, and by doing so bring the sacred prophesies into discredit as often as their predictions fail. Christ comes as a thief in the night, and it is not for us to know the times and seasons which God hath put into his own breast. -From  An Historical Account of Two Notable Corruptions of Scripture (1704), regarding his calculations “Of the End of the World” based upon the prophecies of Daniel.

Have all these failed predictions brought discredit upon Christianity? Many would agree with Newton on this point and answer yes. Harold Camping, another Christian minister who appears to be sincere has just recently embarrassed himself and his followers. If you feel like reviewing the very long line of failed predictions asserted by people over the centuries, the page entitled: Library of Date Setters of The End of the World! is offered as a quite thorough compilation. As you would assume, Jehovah’s Witnesses and the Watchtower Organization have many entries on this page of well over 200 mistaken predictions. No doubt some of these date-setters are/were people that we can say were honest truth seekers.  Should Harold Camping be forgiven? Or condemned? Should Isaac Newton be included in a similar category, since he asserted the year 2060 as a possible candidate? What about Charles Russell and the others that reached the date 1874? And then the revised year of 1914? Can Charles Russell be forgiven for this “failed-prophecy”? Remember, Brother Russell predicted not the end of the Gentile times for 1914, but the beginning of the thousand year reign for this date. This has of course been revised by the publications used by Witnesses today, and most of the unpleasant portions surrounding those late 1800s and early 1900s were expunged from Witness history in the Proclaimers book and subsequent DVD presentations.

And does the date really even matter to most of Jehovah’s Witnesses? It has been de-emphasized considerably in the last few years. In my experience, most newly baptized brothers or sisters know very little or nothing about Bible chronology and don’t even feel it is a “big deal”. One told me that even if the 1914 date is proved wrong it wouldn’t make any difference in dissuading them from faith and belief in the “faithful slave”. This psychological phenomenon is a topic for another  discussion though.

A question to ponder then, is how important is it that we prove or disprove the 1914 end-time prediction to be right or wrong to ourselves? Was it the end of the Gentile Times as asserted by Jehovah’s Witnesses? Was it a marked year in history? Or does it just belong in the long list of failed predictions? It can only be one or the other. And the fact that we are nearing the 100 year point past 1914 is considered by some as a weakening of the “proof” that others feel exists for 1914.

Carl O. Jonson in his scholarly book “The Gentile Times Reconsidered” [1] quoted the July 1, 1914 Watchtower magazine, page 5496 and then made the comment:

“Russell seemed to be on the point of rejecting his chronology altogether. Answering a colporteur, who wanted to know if the Studies in the Scriptures were to be circulated after October, 1914, “since you [Russell] have some doubts respecting the full accomplishment of all expected by or before October, 1914,” Russell replied: 

It is our thought that these books will be on sale and read for years in the future, provided the Gospel age and its work continue. . . . We have not attempted to say that these views are
infallible, but have stated the processes of reasoning and figuring, leaving to each reader the duty and privilege of reading, thinking and figuring for himself. That will be an interesting matter a hundred years from now; and if he can figure and reason better, he will still be interested in what we have presented.” 

Thus, by July 1914, Russell now seemed ready to accept the thought that the 1914 date probably was a failure, and that his writings on the matter were going to be merely of historical interest to Bible students a hundred years later!


"[1914] will be an interesting matter a hundred years from now"

Even Russell was unsure about the 1914 end-time prediction

Examining the history since this statement was made by in the magazine by Brother Russell brings us to the views of a later president, Frederick Franz. Brother Franz while presiding at the Bethel table on November 17, 1979 was reported [2] to have said:

The sole purpose of our existence as a Society is to announce the Kingdom established in 1914 and to sound the warning of the fall of Babylon the Great. We have a special message to deliver.

So as the primary writer and speaker for Jehovah’s Witnesses in modern times, Brother Frederick Franz certainly had no doubts about the veracity of 1914, at least not spoken publicly. It remains a cornerpost teaching of Jehovah’s Witnesses and one that could land a member in hot water if they were to deny.

With this in mind, the following information has been collected, compiled, and refined by a poster named “Lonely Sheep”. It appears below as he sent it to me. It serves as more food for thought regarding the 1914 calculation as used by Jehovah’s Witnesses:




1914 is ONE of THE most important years in history after the death of Christ for Jehovah’s Witnesses. Their motivation to preach and to make monumental personal sacrifices is based on the proof given by the Society that Jesus returned in 1914. With only a generation from the time of Christ’s arrival to destruction of this world, many honest hearted folk feel obliged to do whatever it takes to preach and save lives and in many cases to give their own lives. 

For the hierarchy of Jehovah Witnesses, known as the Governing Body this date is also pivotal, because they say when Christ became King in 1914 he gave them authority over the congregation, to lead his people into the promised paradise.

The scriptural proof for 1914 as the pivotal year when Christ became King and returned to the earth is based on a number of scriptures. One is found at Luke 21:23,24 when Jesus foretold the destruction of Jerusalem and its long term prophetic significance…

“..23 Woe to the pregnant women and the ones suckling a baby in those days! For there will be great necessity upon the land and wrath on this people; 24 and they will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations, until the appointed times of the nations are fulfilled…

The second is Ezekiel 21:26,27.. where the prophet predicts that after the last king of Jerusalem, the crown would not be passed onto any person, except to the Messiah when he appeared.

This is summarised in a familiar chart and timescale cited by Jehovah’s Witnesses
The other crucial date for Jehovah’s Witnesses is 607 BCE as can be seen from the above chart. This is the starting point that Jehovah’s Witnesses use in order to calculate the endpoint as 1914 for the arrival of Jesus Christ. 

For this reason Jehovah’s Witnesses refute very rigorously any argument that suggest Jerusalem was destroyed on any other date other than 607 BCE. Extensive literature has been published by them in an attempt to prove that 607 is correct from a scriptural viewpoint and also by archaeology. Any argument that opposes this idea from whatever source is dismissed and the 607 date stays.
In this short essay, [we] will show that it makes no difference when Jerusalem was destroyed, whether in 607 BCE or any other time. Using the literature from the Society and some simple maths it can be proved that 1914 cannot have any Biblical significance to Jehovah’s Witnesses or any other person alive on this earth today (other than those who experienced the 1st World War).

It’s the maths stupid

Although the above calculations appear to validate the Societies understanding, they are however wrong. This is because the Society is using two different types of years to arrive at its conclusions. The two different types of years I just referred to will be examined in the next section, but a little illustration may serve as a primer..

Does this sum make any sense?

2 Feet + 3 Meters = 5 feet.

Well this is clearly wrong. The digits add up, BUT the units are different therefore the answer does not make any sense. Unfortunately the Society has made a similar miscalculation in their claims that Jesus arrived 1914.

Know your Years

The mistake is made, because the date of 1914 is arrived at by using TWO types of years in the calculations.

You see, the years in the Bible are different to the years we are familiar with. The Bible uses what is called Lunar years, whilst nowadays we use what is called Gregorian Years.

A Bible, Prophectic or Lunar year = 360 days

See WT 1984 1/4 under the heading ‘A Day for a Year’ which states that 360 days is indeed a Bible/Prophetic Year.

A Gregorian year (our type of years) = 365.25 days

The Gregorian calendar is the ‘modern’ calendar year introduced by Pope Gregory XIII in 1582

You may ask, what is the significance of this?

The answer is that when we are calculating Bible prophecy, we can only use Lunar years, since all prophecy is made with Lunar years in mind.

We shouldn’t mix different units of time when making calculations in the same way we should not mix units of length when making calculations (like our first maths sum above). However this is the mistake the Society makes.

So how does the Societies calculation go wrong?

Let’s revisit the maths in the chart that we saw earlier

The calculation the Society has done is this:

But the calculation should be this:

The second calculation is correct because it uses Bible years, where each year 360 days long.

The next section breaks the above calculations down further, so that we can prove conclusively which year is correct and which year is wrong.

From Invasion of Babylon to Heavenly Return of Christ

The Society claims that from 607 BC to 1914 there is 2520 years. Lets test that claim by counting between these two dates in DAYS instead of YEARS

Number of days using a Lunar/Bible calendar over 2520 years is:

2520 years x 360 days = 907,200 days

Number of days using a Gregorian calendar over 2500 years is:

2520 years x 365.25 days =920,430 days

So assuming Babylon was overthrown in 607 BCE, counting the days instead of years yields the following results for the arrival of Christ (assuming such a thing can be calculated):
The 1914/1918 timescale can be represented like this:
The 1914/1918 timescale can be represented like this:


Using the correct Biblical/prophetic year of 360 days, Jesus apparently returned in 1878 and NOT 1914!!

Interestingly 1878 was the year taught by the early Bible students, including Russell and N.H.Barbour as the date that Christ made his promised return to the Earth. However, today, no mention is ever made by JW’s that 1878 had any prophetic significance and is not mentioned in any literature after 1930. In a similar way, the year 1914 should be expunged from all teachings of JW’s and we need to humbly recognize we are wrong and continue to search for Truth.
Trawling through history and old stone tablets to prove that Babylon was destroyed in 607 BCE and not some other date is of no relevance.
Whatever year we use for the destruction of Jerusalem cannot be used to calculate the arrival of Christ in 1914. As the Master said “Concerning that day and hour nobody knows… but only the Father” (Matth 24:36)
So by just using some simple maths, the calculations made by the Society that 1914 was the time of Christ arrival to Earth simply do not stack up. So if Christ did not return in 1914 where does that leave Jehovah’s Witnesses?




[1]  The Gentile Times Reconsidered, page 55

[2]  In Search of Christian Freedom, page 33


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173 Comments on A Problem With 1914?

  1. Bro. Ed says:

    “Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you, brothers, not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by a spirit or a spoken word, or a letter seeming to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.” (2 Thessalonians 2:1, 2 ESV)

    The web of lies (I’m not going to guild the lily) that has been cast to deceive the majority of JWs is shameful. The contraction in recent years from the date 1914 is nothing short of playing with the truth. It’s a house of cards that WILL collapse. Truth always comes out and JJ you are helping the truth by shining a light on a lie.

    Peace be with you all


  2. andrew says:

    Thanks for the article Lonely Sheep and JJ. Your last question about where this leaves the JWs is in the same boat as everyone else. They were never chosen in 1918 as the faithful slave but neither have they been judged as the evil slave. The theory that JWs are different either for better or worse simply is untenable.


  3. disappointed says:

    Thanks for this well researched piece JJ. I particularly like the comment by Newton. And to Lonely Sheep for the calculations on the ‘days’. It’s something I’d given thought to myself although not as extensively. It was very interesting to realise how out of kilter the two calendars are!I finally realised that 1914 HAD to be wrong when they readjusted the understanding of the ‘generation’,YET AGAIN two years ago. Anyone who is able to think clearly for themselves can see it is ludicrous. Then again, I don’t think many JWs actually stop to think for themselves as it’s all done for them. They just don’t seem to realise how pivotal 1914 (and hence 1918) is to the whole concept of the FDS. Once 1914 is shown to be false everything else falls like a row of dominos. There are so many scriptures that tell us we can’t know the time of the end, yet that is completely ignored.


  4. Amos says:

    Amen to that Andrew.

    I see the WTS & their GB as being no different to any other religious body. You see, nowadays I draw the line where religion is concerned, & now stress the need for “spirituality” NOT religion, religious!

    BTW folks, the start date for these calculations could be erroneous, this was discussed in substantial detail about a year ago.
    Jerusalem WAS NOT destroyed in 607 BC. Nebuchadnezar’s first assault on Jerusalem was in 606 BC. This is when he removed Daniel & the nobles to Babylon, with the destruction of the city & temple at Jerusalem being either 586 or 587 BC. Historical records are insufficient to get any closer that that.


  5. ruth says:

    The watch tower society has ignored the divine one of the father.
    They have laid a different foundation which is now bringing them to ruin.
    They have changed and devised there own rules regarding the holy scriptures. Time frames of prophecy hoping they would happen to suit themselves. They have put up a huge image in its place.

    Satan’s smooths words!! COME TO JEHOVAH’S ORGANIZATION FOR SALVATION. BY REPLACING Jesus they have committed blasphemy.

    They also have taken a simple gospel from simple people.
    Jesus is indeed the way the truth and the life. He is not in any church or organisation. He is in you. 1John4:4

    What than is the foundation of Jesus Christ? the one they replaced.
    Gods foundation is prepared based on which structure rests on. It is the beginnings or first principals of a system of truth.
    A person who comes to the Lord Jesus Christ, and hears and does what he says, builds a foundation on a rock.

    When trouble comes! that person’s life cannot be shaken. The person who lays his foundation on the rock, must first dig deeply into the things of God which are normally hidden and above man’s scrutiny.
    This lays a solid foundation of Jesus Christ in a Christian, using the six principles of the doctrine of Christ as written in Hebrews 6:1-3 in the Word of God.
    Times and seasons we do not need to waste time on. We must prepare our relationship with the son of God right now.

    Also we NEED TO FOLLOW THE TOOLS PROVIDED. It is vital we know how he thinks, how he feels, And what he requires of us right now.
    Sister Ruth.


  6. Bro. Ed says:

    “What God the Father considers to be pure and genuine religion is this: to take care of orphans and widows in their suffering and to keep oneself from being corrupted by the world.” (James 1:27 GNT)

    Just a little aside in relation to brother Amos’ comment regarding religion. I guess true religion in our Fathers eyes is all about love, compassion and being “innocent as doves” (Matthew 10:16).

    I allowed my heart to become corrupted by the world and I now have a desperate struggle each and every day. Thanks be to the grace I’ve been given, because without it I’d be lost.

    Peace and brotherly affection to all my fellow Christians


  7. ruth says:

    Bro Ed.
    Yes this is a big mistake not to take care of widows and orphans. Shutting them out is such a big sin!
    They may be just simple people. But God has used simple people from the word go.
    On the other hand another the most important thing is the simple pure gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ. People have to know what he is doing and also at the right hand of God, and where he resides. 1John 4:4 says is resides in us.His spirit is in our hearts.
    It is now a one on one relationship with Jesus.

    Not to be taken lightly is the foundation he laid for us.If we are on a firm foundation we will not be knocked from the ground we stand on.( spiritually) We will not worry about dates, times,
    If the son did not know the times. Who are we to come up with our different theories?
    Its very obvious Bro Russell had his own agenda. Yes, man thinks they know everything.

    Precious tools like bro Ed mentioned. Love the Lord with all your heart soul and mind. Love your neighbour as yourself.
    He is the Rock. When he knocks on our door we must let him in.
    He constantly tells us that he is the way the truth and the life.

    Not religion. Not organizations. Its Jesus the son of the most high GOD.
    I wrote a great article earlier to night. When l submitted it it went off into cyber space. So I will try again.
    Plainly the w/tower has set dates.
    Set themselves up in Gods place. They plainly are another GOLDEN CALF ALONG WITH RELIGION. I agree with what Andrew and Amos wrote. I see such a danger here sometimes what people focas on.
    Sister Ruth.


  8. John S. says:



  9. AwareBeing says:

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  10. Wakeupwitness says:

    Anyone notice that 1914 is hardly mentioned anymore by the Society?
    Here’s a test….get your Watchtower cd-rom and pick a date prior to 1995 and type in 1914 and then choose 2010 and see the difference in the counts for searches.
    Truth be told-the Society is steering away from 1914.


    • whateverhappenetome says:

      yes and they seem to emphasize 1919 more and more nowadays..to back up their recent claim about the GB being the FDS, which was selected by Jesus in 1919….that’s just my theory though,.


  11. ruth says:

    Bro Ed and family.
    I look at all the honesty from everyone regarding there stories and feel so grateful that we are all in different stages on our way to where our father wants to lead us.
    So many heart aching stories. yet one can see how the spirit is actually helping each and every one of us to progress.

    It makes Gods principles the most important part of out life now.
    It makes the Godly fear so real. We hate to dissatisfy him! Yet we all do. I ask you how loving is he to put up with us all.

    BELIEVE IT. We are his sheep being led into the pen. HE WILL LOOK AFTER US. He has knocked on our door. We all let Jesus in.
    Now its a time of feasting. A time to accept the peace he promises.
    A time in the Wilderness. One on one with Jesus.
    Let his spirit touch your hearts all my dear brothers and sisters.


  12. Goldstein aka rorshach says:

    Ive used this line of reasoning concerning the mixing of dates many times all i get is the blank stare..


  13. Bro. Ed says:

    Thank you for your words of encouragement sister Ruth. You know I draw great comfort from the words of the Apostle Paul in Romans 7:4-25, 8:1-11. I fully appreciate the struggle we all have, especially those that have been deeply corrupted by this wicked world. Oh how I wish I was innocent like a child again!! Alas, the stains that this system has created on my “robe” is hard to clean. But thanks to our Lords sacrifice and the blood he shed for all, I know that those stains can be removed if I wash my robe in this blood (Revelation 7:14, 22:14). All of you, my dear family of brothers and sisters, can help me, as I can help you. Your loving words of encouragement make my burdens seem light. This is what Jesus taught us through the Apostles; to share our burdens, to openly confess our sins and to build each other up in tenderness and love. This way we can know and ensure that Jesus is abiding in ALL of us and we in him.

    Your brother in Christ


    • disappointed says:

      Bro. Ed, these scriptures I find comforting..(Isa 1:18, Luke 7:44-48 and 1 John 3:20). Our problem is not that God can’t forgive us it’s that we can’t forgive ourselves. Take heart brother and let’s keep on building each other up as you say. God’s word has some wonderful treasures to find.


  14. Bro. Ed says:



  15. John S says:

    I would like to amen those comments on unworthiness above.But knowing God is not calling righteous ones but sinners to repentance consoles my guilt.I would also like to thank lonely sheep and JJ for thinking outside the box on this 1914 question.I do agree that the correct figure is 2520,as the simple 360 day prophetic year is used in Daniel on the 70 weeks of years,and to use Gregorian would be very confusing to nations not quite knowing the exact length of a solar rotation of earth around the sun;365 days 8 hrs plus some minutes,I think.But I think it the best idea to test everything out again at this early time of reawakening for JW’s.We have to be careful in accepting anything as truth without good knowledge and research.Because that’s what has got us this far…we started to see the truth,realizing WT had been feeding a lot of junk to us as well as getting us to “throw papers”for them like a kid doing a paper route on his bike,while all the time withholding from us the truth of the Gospel and the Holy Spirit.I would also like to say “Bravo” to all of you with the humble attitude you’ve been showing as to OUR sinful state.Remember the old Dynasty used to quote Paul,when he said after he got done preaching, don’t feel like you’ve done something great but that you’re just a good-for-nothing slave doing what you ought to be doing? Well that was Paul,(and the Groveling Body),giving his opinion,but the Father and the Lord are deeply moved by what we do for Jesus and the Kingdom,sometimes I would like to have been able to ask Paul if he ever heard of the term ‘Killjoy’.I really lose patience with some of his comments (please forgive me here,I’ll probably get whacked for this)But if it wasn’t for his deep study and meditation,and attentiveness to the commission to preach the word,how little would we know,so he more than redeems himself.Anyway thanks for listening to my expressions as we bounce our ideas around,we might learn from each other,which is the correct way,I believe this anointing works.Thanks JJ for the post…


  16. John S. says:



  17. rus virgil says:

    Hi !
    May I say “my view” regarding 1914 ?
    it is contained here:


    further should be good to be understood what “presence” is , and also the “coming” and when the “coming” has begun …


    my researches are not complete, they are only “inputs” on the subjects..


  18. Bro. Ed says:

    A couple of good posts Rus. My thoughts on the WTS incessant use on the word parousia as some how a rebuttal of the belief in a yet to be fulfilled second coming is quite illogical and in fact a red herring. Parousia means ‘presence’ in Greek. Presence implies one must arrive in order to be present; no argument here from the society. Now here’s where it gets messy. Because the society believes Christ has already arrived (1914) his presence must be invisible. But nowhere do we find a scrptural reference to an invisible presence. Only the society puts forward such a dogma in order to sustain the error of 1914. But what do we find instead the scriptures testifying in relation to Christ’s presence:

    “so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him. (Hebrews 9:28 ESV) Note the word “appear”.

    “Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. (Matthew 24:30 ESV) Note the word “see”.

    “And then they will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. (Mark 13:26 ESV) Note again the word “see”.

    “and said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.” (Acts 1:11 ESV) Note the words, “as you saw him go into heaven”.

    Each of these passages support a VISIBLE presence, where his arrival will be seen.

    Your brother in Christ


    • Amos says:

      Bro. Ed,

      I absolutely agree with your comments & reasoning.

      About a year ago, after doing much research, I came to the conclusion myself that when our Lord does return, it will be visible. I believe there are suffient verses throughout the NT to support a visible return, & as you stated NONE that support an “invisible” return.

      How about Rev.1:7?
      “Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.”

      This is a classic, in my opinion.


      • Bro. Ed says:

        Brother Amos, Rev 1:7 is a pivotal scripture, thank you for citing it.

        You know, I remember a Sunday morning talk by an elder on the topic of the Parousia. After spending quite some time focused on 1914 eschatology (using older WT publications and quoting other scholarly resources) and effectively setting up the argument for an invisible presence, the unquestioning audience were easily led to believe 100% in the doctrine and that it was unscriptural to believe that Christ’s return would be anything other than ‘invisible’, even though no scriptures could be used to back up the doctrine. He used counter-arguments to all the scriptures citing his ‘visible’ return by saying things like, “How could Christ be seen in multiple places at once.” Or in relation to Acts 1:11, “Note that the the speaker says, “This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.” And so Jesus was obscured by the clouds and therefore would have been invisible to those disciples.” And other such arguments.

        In the end, if I had asked any of the brothers and sisters after the talk whether they believed Jesus’ presence could possibly be visible, I would have been cautioned for having possible apostate views. Now how’s that for “testing all things”.

        Peace be with you all


  19. ruth says:

    It goes to show us clearly then. True believers who follow a simple gospel are the Lords church. Not any man’s church! But the one Jesus founded. The one stating he is the only head.

    J/ws, SDA, All religions professing they are it! Meddling with simple truth will one day fall by the sword. People preaching a different gospel will be no more. The survivors will only worship in spirit and truth.

    Putting times and dates to the bible is so out of order.Taking control of peoples lives is so out of order.

    We are only the sheep of his pasture. No men are the head of Christ’s church. Any thing else besides him will fall apart.
    Brothers are simply co_labourers.
    No one can claim a particular fellowship as their own.
    1 Corinthians 3:11. Also every man’s work will be made manifest for the day shall declare it.
    Giving lip service and acknowledging he is the Christ is not enough! The moment man takes control of Christ church he takes away Christ’s place.” All sorts of mischief starts to happen.”
    The only foundation of true Christianity is built on Jesus himself. John 14:6.
    He is the way the truth and the life. No one can come to father than by me.

    The only safe place for true believers is in Jesus arms.In the church he is building. In his pen, surrounded by his love, truth
    and tender care. Surrounded by true Sisters and brothers who cry for a simple Gospel.
    Sister Ruth.


  20. greybeard says:

    Awesome article JJ! Sorry for my late response… I am playing catchup 😉 Thank you and thanks to all who contributed! This article hit me hard. I never really thought about the JW’s using two different types of years in calculating 1914. That brings to my mind this scripture:

    Deuteronomy 25:13, “You must not come to have in your bag two sorts of weights, a great one and a small one.”

    Would Jehovah use two different types of years if he were to make it possible for us to figure this stuff out? Surly not! Even Christ didn’t know such things so how can man figure this out on his own? The way 1914 is explained by the WT/JWorg is all hindsight and they have lied to cover their mistakes.

    Keep up the good work JJ. Surly Christ is using you and all of us here to expose these impostors.


    Your brother in Christ,


  21. Willie says:

    Good figuring JJ. I’ve NEVER thought that 1914 had anything to do with the return of Christ, but I do believe that it signaled the ending of Gentile Times beginning with WWI and concluding when Jesus begins his Kingdom reign.

    With all due respect to those of you who think that Christ will return visibly, I would like to submit the folloiwng thoughts and scriptures. I believe that Christ returned invisibly in 1874 to fulfill the prophecy found in Daniel 12:12. Verse 11 gives the beginning date: “And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up [the mass in 539 AD], there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninty days.” This would figure out to be the year 1829, when interest in the second coming began to come into prominance in all of Christendom, in what was ultimately referred to as the Millerite Movement in the USA, though many others were involved in Europe and India. Dan. 12:12 says, “Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days” which adds 1335 years to 539 AD and gives us 1874 when many believe the invisible presence actually began–else what would be BLESSED about it?

    To “see” can also mean to discern. Even a blind man can see, understand, perceive, or discern something even though he has no sight. This seems to be the case in the citations mentioned by Ed. The “sign” appeared–not Jesus in Matt. 24:30. When Jesus and the Church begin their reign on earth in power and great glory, it WILL BE discerned by the world even though the reign will be invisible. The Ancient Worthies, called “princes in all the earth” (Psa. 45:16), will be the visible representatives of the governing body whose headquarters will be located in Jerusalem, the capital city of the world.

    What about John 14:19? “Yet a little while, and the world SEETH ME NO MORE; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.” Jesus’ brother Judas (Matt.13:55) asked in verse 22, ” Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?” He obviously understood that Jesus would be invisible. I John 3:2 gives a good answer to that question: “Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.” Jesus will be a spirit and those that see him as he is will be spirits also–for humans cannot see spirits.

    In Matthew 24:3 “… the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?” Jesus answered the part about the “sign” beginning in verse 30 and certainly if everyone could see him literally they would NOT NEED A SIGN! Verses 23-26 are pretty straight forward: “Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; BELIEVE IT NOT. For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Behold, I have told you before. Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; GO NOT FORTH; behold, he is in the secret chambers; BELIEVE IT NOT.”

    No where in the Bible does it indicate that any men, other than believers in Christ, saw Jesus in any one of the fleshly- looking bodies that he assumed during the forty days after his resurrection–“being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit; By which he went and preached to the spirits [fallen angels] in prison” (I Peter 3:19). Only the wise virgins will “see” Jesus when he comes for them–which is the coming for which we DO NOT KNOW the day nor the hour–not because he looks like them with a physical body, but because they will be changed “in the twinkling of an eye” to look like him with a spiritual body, when they see him AS HE IS.

    But the main reason that Jesus cannot take back his fleshly body to be seen of men is because his flesh was the Ransom Price that he paid for Father Adam and if he took it back it would mean the end of all the covenants–the hopes and precious promises to the Church, the Jews, and the world of mankind. Jesus didn’t appear in a fleshly body to Saul/Paul because he had already returned to his Father and had received the Divine nature by that time (Phil. 2:9). Jesus CANNOT take back his flesh since he returned to heaven without cancelling everything for which he died. He is now the express image of the Father (Heb.1:1-3) and I Tim. 6:16 tells us this about God: “Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see; to whom be honour and power everlasting.” Jesus’ glory is now too great to be seen of men!


    • Bro. Ed says:

      Greetings Willie, the points you put forward are very similar to the WTS. I just want to clarify my perspective:

      1) Mat 24:30 states, “they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds”. I don’t believe that passage is at all symbolic or inferring to a ‘discerning’ of his coming, as you say. The operative word is “see”, not discern.

      2) The “sign” of his coming (Mat 24:30) is to herald his imminent arrival and is primarily for his disciples to be able to distinguish Christ’s arrival from false messiahs. Remember, this passage is in direct response to Mat 24:3, “Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?” (ESV). He gave the signs of the end of the age and left the “sign of the Son of Man” as the final sign. Why because no false messiah would be able to produce the final sign.

      3) You say “Jesus will be a spirit and those that see him as he is will be spirits also–for humans cannot see spirits.” At no time did I mention, or is there any mention, of Jesus needing to take back a fleshly form in order to be seen. Yet your point of view seems to suggest that a spirit being cannot be seen and therefore must assume a fleshly human form to be seen. However we all well know that there are many many examples in the bible of spirit beings that have been seen. In fact in Act 1:6, when Jesus was ascending to heaven, he was a spirit being and so too where the other “two men” who were in “white robes”.

      So there are two points of view. One that holds to the belief that Christ’s return is or will be invisible, irrespective of it already happening in 1874, 1914 or some other date past, present or future – this is like Jesus’ warning in Mat 24:23, “if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There he is!’ do not believe it..” All those that believe he is already here and fulfilling the prophecies in relation to his return, have fallen for the false signs. The second holds to a visible presence. Those who hold to the belief that Christ’s return is yet to come are free to observe all the signs and then the final one.

      Peace be with you


    • Willie,

      You said, “I believe that Christ returned invisibly in 1874 to fulfill the prophecy found in Daniel 12:12. Verse 11 gives the beginning date: “And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up [the mass in 539 AD], there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninty days.””

      How do you know that the setting up of the mass in 539 is the abomination that causes desolation resulting in 539 being the start date for the prophecy? This to me is just a theory (among theories) based upon assumptions, circular reasoning and circumstancial evidence. It certainly is not a thus saith the Lord IMO. It does seem to be par for the course for religious organizations that came out of the early Adventist movement. They just love date setting based upon time prophesy.



    • Willie said,

      ““Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days” which adds 1335 years to 539 AD and gives us 1874 when many believe the invisible presence actually began–else what would be BLESSED about it?”

      This reckoning uses the same formula that was called into question in the article above. It mixes methods of measurements that seem to conflict. Is this proper and if so, why?



      • reader says:

        Dennis Parker: “Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days” which adds 1335 years to 539 AD and gives us 1874 when many believe the invisible presence actually began–else what would be BLESSED about it?”

        To nail this you need the actual “ships of Kittim event” which I suggest is the “battle of the Masts” with the same king of North latter meddling in the Christian affairs; this puts you near 681 ce + 1335 = 2016ce or thereabouts +/-5-10years, what happens then -just says happy.


  22. Hi Willie,

    You said, “Good figuring JJ. I’ve NEVER thought that 1914 had anything to do with the return of Christ, but I do believe that it signaled the ending of Gentile Times beginning with WWI and concluding when Jesus begins his Kingdom reign.”

    Now isn’t the way you figure out that 1914 was the end of the Gentile Times the same exact way that the Society figures out that 1914 is the start of Christ’s invisible reign? Isn’t the arithmetic exactly the same (mixing methods of measurements which is what this article is all about) but the event that is said to have occurred in 1914 the only thing that’s different? I know that you use 606 as the start date and the Society uses 607 due to the zero year adjustment, but other than that I see no difference on how most Bible Students get to 1914 from JW’s. It’s just the event that is said to have occurred that’s different, right?



    • Willie,

      In reading my posts it occurred to me that I might have conveyed a less than loving tone. If you picked up on that I’m sorry. I was tired last night when I made the posts and didn’t take enough care not to sound curt. 1914 might be just as you say, who really knows for sure. My real issue is, I just can’t stand time study. Maybe I just don’t have the mind to comprehend such matters.

      In Him,



  23. ruth says:

    brothers in the Lord.
    To day our brother John s. young son Micah has eaten poisonous
    mushrooms and is in critical condition. he has asked me to ask you please to send your prayers into the heavens.
    thanks ruth.


  24. Bro. Ed says:

    My prayer:

    Dearest Father, please watch over Micah and help him recover and Father give comfort to his family who are suffering alongside their son. Please Father, accept our prayers through your Son and our Lord Jesus Christ,



    • Dear Brother John,

      I share in extending brother Ed’s prayer to our Heavenly Father on behalf of Micah and your family. Our study group will pray for Micah when we meet Sunday for class. Ruth, keep us posted.

      Christian Love,



  25. John S says:

    Dear brother Ed and all others;Thanks so much,as your prayers and mine have been answered.THANKYOU ALL! Micah is doing well in Hosp. inJackson Ms.The family with you and the Spirit and love of the medical community have seen him past the worst danger.He is stable and his organs are functioning.but remains in critical care.We are dicussing getting him psychiatric evaluation and treatment options as his mind and spirit are so skewed,and drug use and demon-influence of course are a possible part of his dilemna.Again,bless you.We have survived round 1.


    • disappointed says:

      Dear bro. John, I pray that your little boy will carry on recovering and getting strong. sending you warm christian love.


  26. InTheWilderness says:

    First time post from me.

    Thinking about brother John s. and his son. My wife and I face the prospect of loosing our little boy any day because of a rare genetic disorder. It’s like standing on the edge of a precipice staring into the eternal abyss. My prayers are definitely with you.

    Regarding the the way 1914 is calculated the w51 6/15 p. 383 Questions From Readers says this.

    ● In establishing the length of the seven times of the Gentiles, a time or year of 360 days is used, to give 2,520 days, which become 2,520 years when Ezekiel 4:6 is applied. Yet when we figure from 607 B.C. down to A.D. 1914, the 2,520 years are solar years of 365 1/4 days each, and not lunar years of 360 days each. Is this proper?—N. N., New Zealand.

    “The Bible records ignore the solar year of 365 1/4 days as far as measuring natural time and prophetic time. The moon was used for fixing the months, and then the spring growing season for determining the beginning of the year in relation to the moon, making necessary 7 times every 19 years the addition of an intercalary month or Ve-Adar month, a thirteenth month. So since the length of the Jewish year was not stabilized to 365 days plus a leap year of 366 days, prophecy fixed a system of measurement of its time periods at 360 days for a year or time, calculating 30 full days to a month instead of the actual 29 1/2 days to a lunation. Genesis 7:11, 24; 8:3, 4 shows Noah calculated 30 days roughly to a month. Further confirmation of this unit as a prophetic norm of time is given us at Revelation 11:2, 3, where 42 months are run parallel with 1,260 days, making a year of 12 months equal 360 days. Note also that when Revelation 12:6, 14 parallels 3 1/2 years or times with 1,260 days it takes each time or symbolic year as equal to 360 days, and not 365 1/4 days by saying that the 3 1/2 times equal 1,278 and a fraction days. In 3 1/2 years or times there would be at least one and possibly two intercalary months, as explained by The Watchtower, March 15, 1948, pages 91, 92; yet Revelation ignored such intercalary months in giving the days of the 3 1/2 times. So we figure according to God’s Biblical way and are on firm foundation in saying that the symbolic seven times equal 2,520 years. And these 2,520 years should be counted as solar years, because the Jewish lunar years of 360 days, over long periods of time, kept pace with the solar years by means of the intercalary months added at set intervals, thereby always maintaining the necessary harmony between the year’s beginning and the seasons.

    That this method of calculating is correctly used to bring us to A.D. 1914 from 607 B.C. is confirmed for us by the physical facts that have become manifest from that year 1914 on, in fulfillment of Matthew 24 and 25, Mark 13, Luke 21, and other prophecies concerning Christ’s second presence, in the time of the end.”

    Is the Watchtower writer correct?



    • Bro. Ed says:

      Dear brother InTheWilderness, firstly my prayers go out to our Father for you and your family in your time of distress. May Jehovah watch over your son and may his Spirit comfort you during this time. Also please accept my extended arms of fellowship and brotherly love.

      As for you question, “Is the Watchtower writer correct?” I can only say this, it is spiritually dangerous to base ones faith on dates. What I’m about to say may surprise or even upset many people but I’ll say it nonetheless: “Date setting is another form of idolatry.”

      While many associate idolatry with physical idols, the truth is idolatry can encompass anything created, including time. In this manner idolatry “includes giving undue importance to aspects of religion other than God, or to non-religious aspects of life in general, with no involvement of images specifically.” (Ref http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idolatry)

      Now here is where date setting becomes idolatry. When someone calculates end time dates, they do so because they are trying to establish eschatological preeminence; this is in-of-itself haughty. However, to then inspire ones faith and that of others to worship, based on a date that ‘non-believers’ do not perceive, is a serious form of idolatry. Please remember, those early date setters focused their worship on a date being fulfilled. JWs and those that do exactly the same thing today are sharers in this error.

      1914 has become an idol of faith. It underpins the beliefs of many millions of JWs who focus their worship on a foundation not preached by Christ or the Apostles. If you think I’m wrong, then read carefully the words of our Lord in Matthew 24:36-39, “But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only. For as were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, and they were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.”

      This passage is not at all ambiguous, it is stark in clarity. “No one knows the day or the hour…and they were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.” Do you think this applied only to the first century Christians? Not at all, it applies to all, right up until the end.

      I say these things with heartfelt love and I hope you don’t think my words are said with any malice.

      Your brother in Christ.


      • InTheWilderness says:

        Thank you brother Ed. I appreciate your words and do not read any malice in them. Actually I am in total agreement with you. I think date setting is pointless and as Newton pointed out has done much to discredit Christianity. My reason for posting the QFR was to show the Watchtower rebuttal to the Lunar dilemma.



  27. Willie says:

    Dear Ed, If Jesus is visible there is NO NEED for a sign. YOU ONLY NEED A SIGN IF HE IS INVISIBLE. How do you explain away John 14:19–“Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more….”? Humans cannot see spirits unless the spirits materialize–take on fleshly bodies. In Acts 1:6-11, when Jesus was talking to his own followers before his ascension into heaven, he and the two angels who appeared AS MEN where all materialized spirit beings, as we read in vs. 10–“two men stood by them in white apparel.” If they hadn’t materialized as men they wouldn’t have been seen.

    How will Jesus “come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven”? It will be by the fact that (as here in Acts 1) only his faithful believers will see him when he returns for they shall see him as he is–a glorified spirit being–for Paul said, “we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump; for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed” (I Cor 15;52)–and the world will see the Bride of Christ no more either.

    Rev. 3:14-22 describes the period of the Laodicean Church, the seventh and last Church of the Gospel Age, which began at Jesus’ invisible return in 1874. It seems reasonable that at the present time Jesus is assisting the wise of the wise virgin class to make their calling and election sure, as we read in verse 20–“Behold, I stand at the door and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. To him that overcometh, will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.” Psa. 2:8 says, “Ask of me [Jehovah], and I shall give thee [Jesus] the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.” Jesus will not ask his Father for the heathen for his inheritance until the marriage with his Bride/the Church/his Body has taken place. All Kingdom work is on hold until the Church is complete–THEN THE KINGDOM WILL COMMENCE.

    Jesus can’t stand at the door and knock if he isn’t present. He can’t come in and teach you to understand things that are going to help you be an overcomer if you don’t even think he is here. We can see that the Laodicean Church struggles along the lines of DECEPTION, with as much difficulty as any of the other six churches had to struggle along the lines of physical persecution or whatever their particular trials entailed.

    “He that hath an ear to hear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches” (Rev. 3:22).


  28. Willie says:

    Dear Dennis, Surely you have observed by now that everything ISN’T a “thus saith the Lord.” At this point in time we have to use Church History, fulfilled prophecy and lots of assistance from the Holy Spirit to understand truth as it keeps marching on. If God arranged for these time prophecies of Daniel to be in the Bible then somebody, sometime has to understand what they mean before the Gospel Age ends. Some missing parts of chronology in the Old Testament are supplied by a statement in the New Testament and many times the Old Testament is quoted by Jesus and the apostles, so we know that you can’t always understand one without the other. While that is still a “thus saith the Lord” it has to be searched for–here a little, there a little, line upon line, precept upon precept.

    Let me start with a very helpful quote from a Daniel study fifteen years ago. “‘From the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up’ would be a time period of 1,290 days (years). The ‘abomination that maketh desolate’ actually began before Justinian’s day. That doctrine started in the 300’s, but it was ‘set up’ by Emperor Justinian when he gave Papacy its power as the Man of Sin in AD 539. Two things happened: (1) The daily merit of Christ’s sacrifice was taken away by the substitution of the doctrine of the Mass. (2) Papacy was established as a contending power. The little man-child was caught up to ‘heaven’ and became AS Michael (Rev. 12:5,7-10). A war in [the earthly ecclesiastical] heaven ensued, and the dragon was cast out. In effect, Justinian opened the door to Papacy by recognizing the Pope as the head of the Christian Church, even though the Eastern Orthodox Church was right in Constantinople. What Justinian probably thought was that by throwing out this bone, he would be unifying the eastern and western divisions of the empire, Constantinople and Rome being the respective headquarters. But instead Papacy was strengthened so that it became its own entity. The tables were turned. No longer was Papacy the servant of the government; instead the government became the servant of Papacy. Thus AD 539 was a very critical period of time, for the starting point of the 1,260 days, the 1,290 days, and the 1,335 days are all that same year. From that point we add the prophetic time periods.”

    539 + 1,260 = the year 1799 when the French Revolution ended marking the beginning of the “Time of the End” fortold in Dan. 12:4. 539 + 1,290 = the year 1829, the beginning of interest in the second coming of Christ with the ministry of William Miller–mostly in the nations of Christendom. 539 + 1,335 = the year 1874 when Jesus returned invisibly to execute the Judgment Day, beginning with his Church (I Pet. 4:17; Matt. 12:36). The judgment of the true Church will continue until the Bride is completed. Next the false Church will be judged, etc. Chronology identified 1874 as beginning the 7000th year of Creation since the fall of Adam, thus chronology confirms Daniel 12:12 and vice versa.

    Back to the study: “Daniel recorded the information, realizing it would benefit others, not himself. The suggestion was that when the 1,335 days came, it would be a wonderful time, for it would mark the real beginning of the unsealing process. As time went on, the ‘words,’ the ‘book’ (that is, present truth), would be unsealed more and more (Dan. 12:4). In the beginning of the paraousia, the key to present truth was given to begin to unlock the mystery (or mysteries) due to be understood at the end of the age.”

    The daily sacrifice which was taken away, mentioned in Dan. 12:11, was the slaying of a lamb by the priest at 9:00 am (when Jesus was nailed to the cross) and another lamb at 3:00 pm (when Jesus died on the cross). The MASS, which disannuls Christ’s RANSOM sacrifice, IS an abomination in my book. What do you think the “abomination of desolation” is, Dennis?

    Next we address the problem of mixing methods of measuring time. Is it valid? Let’s consider Dan. 12:7 where we read: “And I heard the man clothed in linen [probably Jesus], … and sware by him that liveth for ever [Jehovah] that it shall be for a time [1 time], times [2 times], and a half [1/2 time]; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people [the saints], all these things shall be finished.” These times equaled 3 1/2 multiplyed by 360 (the number of days in a lunar year) which equaled 1,260 prophetic days, which are translated into 1,260 years, the period of Papacy’s rule from AD 539 to 1799.

    Rev. 10:5,6 refers to the same time period, figured the same way, when the Catholic rule and persecuting power over the saints ended in 1799 at the close of the French Revolution and after a brief “hour of power”–in the very near future–this false Church system will be destroyed forever.

    The book of Daniel is sometimes called “The Revelation of the Old Testament.” In chapter 12:9 Daniel was told–“the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.” Now, at the end of the Gospel Age the message is to “SEAL NOT the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand” (Rev. 22:10).


  29. Bro. Ed says:

    Willie we seem to have reached an impasse. You firmly believe in the teachings of another group of individuals regarding the coming of our Lord. I rejected, totally, the teachings of another, which aside from various dates, is strikingly similar. You and I could go in circles for decades and I personally don’t think that is at all ‘building up’ the body of Christ. May I ask one thing; has your ‘knowledge’ of dates and times freed you to preach the Gospel of Christ? Has it freed you to work as a member of the Body? Has it given you hope in a reward of the inheritance God has promised his faithful? If it has then you will appreciate that the only thing we must wait for is his return to rescue US!

    “so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him. (Hebrews 9:28 ESV)

    I am waiting for him to rescue me, just as others are.


  30. ruth says:

    Brothers@ Sisters.

    Can I please tell you after leaving the j/ws that I have found a love so amazing. l seriously mean that very explicitly!
    His name is Yeshua HaMashiach. The son of the most high GOD.

    He has told me through the scriptures and his spirit. There is no other way accept through him. Not religion.

    Ephesians 3:18,19 Paul prays that we can have the mental ability with all the holy ones. That is the breadth, length hight and depth.
    Most people think this means chronology! dates seasons.
    Because of that! They never take the opportunity to get to learn about the son of God as the most important person in our lives.

    To know the love of Christ that surpasses all knowledge, that you may be filled all the FULLNESS that God gives is truly a divine RELATIONSHIP with the Christ. Yes! until all generations.

    Paul also prayed. May you have strength to comprehend the love of Christ.” Soul strength. Heart strength. And mind strength. “God give us this we pray”.

    Paul also in Romans 5:5 that God has poured into our hearts his love through the holy spirit who has been given to us.

    Bros I am just a simple person with a simple gospel who was a pioneer for many a year in the j/ws. But since abdicating!
    The Lord came and swooped me up and others into a place where I, or we were alone, and still am so he could teach us and others about him.
    His likes his dislikes. His commands, the tools of the trade so to speak. I’m still just on the surface of realising his message is so simple!
    Realizing his depth of love for us is so unique.

    We cannot ruin this glorious experience of being loved by turning God’s love exalting ourselves in his presence.
    I also believe God is trying to get us to focus on his great mercy for us all.
    The way our Lord died for us tells us he would give and do anything for us. Suffer no matter what.

    That makes us so selfish.
    How much do we love our brothers and sisters. If we go out of our way to hurt them in any shape or form. Even with contempt we are not of God and our Lord and saviour Jesus Christ.
    We must be ready to die for reach other. being of the same mind.

    We have to be careful we make him the deepest foundation of joy. Not build our own foundation of joy to be clever and know everything.
    Sometimes we get so frustrated and think we can see things others cannot. I’m so guilty of that.
    That is why we must concentrate on making a sure way into Christ’s love the focus. Follow him visually through the pages of the gospels.

    That does not diminish Gods grace either. But it surely means putting into practice what he says to us. He choose you and I! Yes we did not choose him. How wonderful is that?

    Bros@ sisters,
    If we do not listen to him that can make our relationship with Christ a double purpose! It should really be all about him. A single purpose. Not about us any more but solely about him.That is the way the father has set things up.

    We have to find out why he loves us. How he loves us.
    Now listen to this!
    He wants us to minister to him. When was the last time we took time to glorify him? Tell him how wonderful he is and mean it.
    Love him. Praise him. When we sing! Sing not to other people, but into the heavens.
    May our God bless you all in our journey to true liberty in Christ Jesus. Yeshua HaMashiach
    Your sister Ruth.


  31. Thirst4truth says:

    O God,our Father,hear out prayers,have mercy on Mica,he was in critical care,recover him quickly with your lovingkindness O God and console his family too with your blessings..in the name of Jesus we pray..Amen!


  32. Bro. Ed says:

    Amen sister Ruth! What you have said with heartfelt conviction is THE TRUTH. The message is simple and the message is pure. This is the religion we profess: That Yahweh is our Father and we must love Him with all our heart, mind, body and soul and we must confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, who sacrificed himself for our sins, has given us the grace of God, so that we can be called His sons and daughters, heirs of the promise. We must love each other and our enemies and we must endure all things until all things are concluded. We must forsake the desires of this world and nail our flesh to the cross/stake/tree. We must build up the body of Christ which means you and me and all Christian brothers and sisters who share this religion we hold fast to. And we must preach this message, so that others may hear, believe and be saved.

    It’s that simple. The hard part is nailing our flesh to the cross/stake/tree and cultivating the fruit of the Spirit as our brother Paul said:

    “But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit. Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.” (Galatians 5:22-26 ESV)

    Your brother in Christ


    • Amos says:

      I must agree with both Bro. Ed & Sr. Ruth.

      I was much the same as Br. Willie until I realized that we can NEVER arrive at the exact date for the Parousia…& there is no evidence that it was an “invisible presence that began in 1874 or 1914!

      There are at least two reasons for my believing this;

      1) If we are part of Christ’s Brothers & are still alive, then HE HASN’T yet returned!

      2) If HE has returned, then we’ve missed the boat entirely!

      If I’m wrong about this, then can someone please show me from the scriptures why I’m wrong.

      Rather than wasting valuable time on subjects such as this, it would be much wiser to focus our attention on improving our “Christ-like disposition!”

      You know, the fruits of the Spirit, our Christian personality.

      If we can’t do that now, then how can we truely be part of THE Kingdom???

      All else may fail, BUT LOVE NEVER FAILS!

      Your brother in Christ,


  33. Disappointed says:

    Amen to that! Sometimes we can get so wrapped up in trying to understand prophecies and eagerness for the fulfillment of the promises that we miss what is most important…our personal relationship with God and Christ!


  34. ruth says:

    Bro Ed.

    What you say about date fixing!
    “Date setting is another form of idolatry. That is truth.
    So true.
    I know deep in my soul it is exactly that. Actually it takes time from the real Issue of our Lord and saviour Jesus Christ.

    Yes! Pure from the heart of our pure Father.
    Easy to understand. Undefiled. Full of love. Mercy and justice.
    Praise our dear father for letting us see. Please father keep showing us your way. The true way.

    Sister Ruth.


  35. Micah S. says:

    Hi friends, this is Micah, son of John S. I’ve read through some of your prayers and I’d like to tell you all thank you. I’d like to clarify that demonic influence has definitely NOT been a part of my spiritual journey. Much the opposite. I believe wholeheartedly in my unification with the creator, and I now have returned from the threshold of death to bear witness to all I meet not to fear it. Make yourself comfortable with the One, and you shall know that your soul will indeed live on even as your material body meets its demise. In my experience with the mushroom, Amanita muscaria, I met a million deaths, convinced of each in its own reality, unable or unwilling to return to communal reality, and I tell you now it is nothing to pity. Yes we will miss being able to see our loved ones on a daily basis in this life, but be convinced that it is not a sad thing to become one with the divine. Be assured in your faith and grieve as you need for your lost souls, but understand that they have been liberated from an oppressed life in this world. Say your prayers and speak to them your reassuring words as they meet their stellar destinies.

    Immense love and gratitude to all.

    P.S. Read this message with an open mind and open heart. I am a firm believer that there is indeed a narrow path leading to the source, but disagree that it is so narrow to only include one faith. Also, I’ve been told more than once that I speak with an arrogant tone, but believe me that it is not my intent. I am only sure of the words I speak as in my own subjective reality, they are truth.


  36. John S says:

    Dear friends;if it’s in the word,and clues to the meanings are given,then wouldn’t it be wrong to vilify those making efforts to compreheend the meaning? But some who have fears of false readings,are stumbled by the attempts.Some are strong of faith and don’t seem to need even one to establish faith,the sign of the end times is enough for them.Some who believe in God don’t need to read ‘Evolution Books’ to know God exists,they’ve arrived at their conclusions in other manners.So it seems with us here.But one man’s cure seems to be another man’s poison.Toleration is something WT demonised,worked to irradicate.We may have to rethink what we should allow in our thinking as to what is a false doctrine,and what is still a legitimate debatable topic or one that should be closely researched by the many for analyzing its merit as a building block for faith.How can this be done?


  37. ruth says:

    Dear Bro John.

    I can understand what you are saying. Of cause knowledge is wonderful. But do you think new people looking on here in J/w struggle should have to be weighed down with such a heavy load?

    Do you realize some have got so anxious when they 1st leave the witnesses the visit here only to see such startling heavy subjects that it makes them so lost! Not knowing where to turn.

    You see, its not about us any more. The Gospel is about Jesus.
    Learn of me he says. Go teach about the Kingdom he says.Be as little children. In other words KEEP THINGS SIMPLE.

    The simple things in life can be the life saving things. We have to be careful not to become as the Pharisees knowing everything.
    Some of you brothers have such wonderful minds and sisters also.
    Know and see so much. But its not about us any more.

    Its about people. Its about loving and caring for them. Its how do they feel when we make things hard for them to understand.
    The Pharisees could not believe the Christ was the son of God. WHY? Because he was simple and ordinary.

    Its not about man’s cure being another man’s poison.
    It is only about the son of God in the New testament.

    I know myself when l 1st looked at this site I felt so over whelmed. For that reason l could never speak up. I thought l had to be a bible scholar! Also with the extremity of confusion with so many different dates popping up about this and that. It was over whelming in the w/tower, let alone here.

    We either listen and learn what Jesus wants us to learn about or, we eventually will suffer for not listening.
    The world can see something big is about to happen. So do we.

    We know its useless to loose time in pondering on time and dates.
    “There is no time to loose wasting time”. Proverbs is a book we all should be discussing.
    Psalms we should be learning off by heart.
    Times are coming when the Lord will bring back to our minds the scriptures we need to survive. psalms 40-1 wait patiently.
    psalm 34-1 praise him.
    Anyway what Bro Ed says is so true about time and dates.
    The Lord has everyone who loves him in the palm of his hand.
    New x witnesses! He Jesus will take them on a spiritual journey with him.
    Let them see the lies of the w/tower.
    Let them see there bad behaviour that we all covered in in the w/tower. make us repent.
    Then personally teach them all he wants them to learn.
    A one on one.

    Nothing wrong with searching out knowledge on the side as long as we see the value of the simple truth. Most people are just that! ordinary simple people.

    Jesus the son of God is our foundation. He is our rock of salvation. He tells us how to see false doctrine.
    Also believe it or not, but other people leaving there religions are peeping in here also. They are lost sheep.
    They need to hear the simple gospel.
    Example if we go into a store with such load music we leave as we cannot stand it. Same as new ones visiting this site.

    Its a bigger world than we think. The outside is looking in.
    How wonderful it would be if what we say has helped someone to see the true gospel.
    Just a thought brother John s.


  38. disappointed says:

    I agree with you sis Ruth, even Jesus own apostles were confused at times and were constantly asking Jesus what he meant but Jesus knew that there were things they were unable to deal with but he told them that one day they would understand everything. (John 16:12,13). The same is true for us, we just have to wait until all is revealed and in the meantime to love God and Christ with all our hearts and to be Jesus footstep followers.


  39. ruth says:

    You have. it my dear.
    Its thinking how others feel RIGHT? What they can cope with.
    How much they can handle.
    God bless you.
    Your sister Ruth.


  40. John S. says:



  41. ruth says:

    Brother Amos.
    Quote:If we are part of Christ’s Brothers & are still alive, then HE HASN’T yet returned!
    Ruth agrees!
    -The chosen living stone, is Jesus. and his chosen people are DEAD ALREADY.
    Still dead until his return.( If we are included in this we have to die a dreadful death) according to what it says here.

    When Christ returns those chosen for the duty of a Royal priesthood have already been Martyred or perhaps still many will be before his return.

    Romans 8:17 Paul tells the brothers in Rome they are heirs, BUT they must suffer with him also to be glorified with him.

    1Peter 2:4 (Jesus.) 1Peter 2:5 (living stones holy priesthood.)

    1 Peter 2:9 )A chosen race. A Royal priesthood A Holy NATION. A people for Gods own possession.)

    John saw Christ on a White horse. Christ defeated the beast and his armies.

    Next John saw Satan being bound for a 1000 years.

    Then John saw thrones. He then saw souls of those who had been beheaded because of there testimony of “JESUS” ( not Jehovah.)
    It now says they came to life and reined with Jesus a 1000years.
    This is the 1st resurrection.

    It is impossible he came back in the 1800s, early 1900s. or invisibly. According to revelation.

    Where will they rein? In heaven? Revelation 5:10 says on earth.

    Hope I’m right here Brother Amos.


  42. Bro. Ed says:

    Sister Ruth, from all that I understand, your thoughts are correct. I believe we Christians are going to go through the fire to be refined. Soon will come a time when Satan will test us and yes many will loose their life defending their convictions. The main method will be by beheading because it symbolizes the separation of thought from action, something true Christians are taught as the Apostle James said, “But the one who looks into the perfect law, the law of liberty, and perseveres, being no hearer who forgets but a doer who acts, he will be blessed in his doing.” (James 1:18, 25 ESV)

    Although Satan, through the Beast, will try and wipe out all of God’s people, we can hold fast to this promise, “Blessed is the man who remains steadfast under trial, for when he has stood the test he will receive the crown of life, which God has promised to those who love him.” (James 1:12, 25 ESV)

    This my dear sister Ruth is why we are being awakened from our spiritual sleep. The time is now right to wake up and prepare for the time ahead. Preach Christ and help others that are awakening. Don’t drift back to sleep even though it is still dark. Light your lamp and make your way to the wedding.

    Your brother in Christ


  43. ruth says:

    Dear brother Ed.
    Thanks for that good sound spiritual advice. It is really appreciated.
    Sister Ruth.


    • Amos says:

      Sister Ruth,

      I believe that we have the same understandings with regard to your reply to me.
      I’m of the view that Rev. 5:9,10 gives the unmistakable understanding that “THE reign” will be on the earth. The “Kingdom of the Heavens”, is just that. Nowhere have I found in scripture, that the “KIngs/Priests” are to reign in heaven. It is only by a theological teaching, that I believe this to have come to be understood that way.

      Of course it’s a Heavenly Kingdom, IT “comes from Heaven!”

      What does Revelation 21 state very clearly???
      21:1-4; “And I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth did pass away, and the sea is not any more; 2 and I, John, saw the holy city — new Jerusalem — coming down from God out of the heaven, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband; 3 and I heard a great voice out of the heaven, saying, ‘Lo, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will tabernacle with them, and they shall be His peoples, and God Himself shall be with them — their God, 4 and God shall wipe away every tear from their eyes, and the death shall not be any more, nor sorrow, nor crying, nor shall there be any more pain, because the first things did go away.'”

      I’m sure that most if not ALL here believe these verses.

      What does Vs 2,3 state….
      2, “and I, John, saw the holy city — new Jerusalem — coming down from God out of the heaven,”
      3 “‘Lo, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will tabernacle with them, and they shall be His peoples, and God Himself shall be with them — their God,”

      So where is God’s rule according to these verses??? Here on the earth, & who will administer THIS RULE???

      Our Lord Jesus, “The Reigning KIng/Priest (according to the likeness of Melchizedek) & His Priestly Brothers (& Sisters).



  44. ruth says:

    Amos it seems to me you have missed my point of your question really.

    Quote Amos says; lf we are part of Christ’s Brothers & are still alive, then HE HASN’T yet returned!

    Ruth agrees and tries to giver her explanation why also.

    -The chosen living stone, is Jesus. and his chosen people are DEAD ALREADY.
    Still dead until his return.( If we are included in this we have to die a dreadful death) according to what it says here. The door has not been shut as yet.

    When Christ returns those chosen for the duty of a Royal priesthood have already been Martyred or perhaps still many will be before his return.

    Romans 8:17 Paul tells the brothers in Rome they are heirs, BUT they must suffer with him also to be glorified with him.

    Then John saw thrones. He then saw souls of those who had been BEHEADED because of there testimony of “JESUS” ( not Jehovah.)
    It now says they came to life and reined with Jesus a 1000years.
    This is the 1st resurrection.
    In my view it seems impossible Jesus return invisibly decades back.

    It is impossible he came back in the 1800s, early 1900s. or invisibly. According to revelation.
    Your sister Ruth.


  45. ruth says:

    Dear brother Amos.
    Thank you anyway for bring those points up
    They are vital to our understanding from the holy spirit to keep all in mind as the days draw near.

    The point Bro Ed brought out also is true of the kind of death that will follow the for those in line to be of the Royal
    Kings and priests.

    Sister Ruth, from all that I understand, your thoughts are correct. I believe we Christians are going to go through the fire to be refined. Soon will come a time when Satan will test us and yes many will loose their life defending their convictions. The main method will be by beheading because it symbolizes the separation of thought from action, something true Christians are taught as the Apostle James said, “But the one who looks into the perfect law, the law of liberty, and perseveres, being no hearer who forgets but a doer who acts, he will be blessed in his doing.” (James 1:18, 25 ESV Your sister Ruth.


  46. John S says:

    I like what you all are talking about,these matters are the Gospel and are of utmost importance.We are so priveleged to have been granted the spirit and are now trying to piece together what this means for us.Let’s be patient with one another and step slowly into this sorting -out time,so we don’t discourage each other.Some are being sifted out even now,unfortunately,being led astray by men’s false stories,and letting the world’s strife garner their attention instead of the heavenly kingdom.This may not be permanent,as we will probably see the destruction of entire nations and peoples as foretold in the plagues of Revelation.Let our faith and reasonableness be a light for others to come to if they become disappointed in their understanding.We love them,but we have chosen to side with the simple Kingdom Gospel and leave some of the theories of others who have elevated viewpoints of their own calling,to themselves.We understand we cannot “earn” our way into heaven,and can never develope perfect integrity,but the blood of God’s son is our power;its Jehovah that did it all for us,and his Son’s efforts,not our own.We live or die because He loved us first.We must never take any other view of our salvation,we keep on the watch for our Lord and Savior to come rescue us thru these dark times or ease us down to sleep until the time of our awakening.Selah,and bless you of the upward call.Before we were Jehovah’s Witnesses,and we fought a good and noble fight.Now we are of the congregation of the firstborn and under attack directly as those who have escaped a dark prison.We stand united here in this hope,and are being blessed with new ones coming over,and we hope some of those anointed that were on here will come back to join us in Christian love,as some got discouraged by the bickering over prophecies’meanings that are yet to be understood.Please come back,friends.We’re sorry for bickering.


  47. Bro. Ed says:

    Amen Brother John. The Apostle Paul wrote, “Since you are eager to have the gifts of the Spirit, you must try above everything else to make greater use of those which help to build up the church.” 1 Corinthians 14:12 (GNB).

    While we may not have at this time, all the gifts of the spirit that Paul and the early Christians had, we have been given a taste of these gifts. We have, at the end of the ages, been awoken by the spirit. This is significant and nothing to be downplayed. The Helper is talking to each one of us so that we can come together and live as one in Christ. It’s not by our own power that we are drawn together, it is the Spirit that compels us. The Helper is instructing us to change and it wants us to learn “the Way” to everlasting life, not because we have called ourselves to this Way but because God has called us to it.

    Some of us are a little further along than others and it is the responsibility of those ones to share what they have been taught with the utmost of care, love and patience. We are not to be puffed up with pride if we think we know some truth. Paul wrote, “I have applied all these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, brothers, that you may learn by us not to go beyond what is written, that none of you may be puffed up in favor of one against another. For who sees anything different in you? What do you have that you did not receive? If then you received it, why do you boast as if you did not receive it?” 1 Corinthians 4:6-7 (ESV)

    Above all these things, we must “pursue love” (1 Corinthians 14:1). LOVE is the one and only thing that we must not hold back from developing and freely sharing. In this darkness, from which we have awoken, the love of many is deathly cold. Our lamps should not only cast light to lead ourselves and others to Christ, they must cast a light on our loving disposition and warm smiles :), even while we are still forced to walk in the cold darkness of this system.

    My Prayer:

    Heavenly Father, your Son spoke to his disciples saying, “But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.” Father in the name of your Son and our Lord Jesus, we ask that you send the Helper to us so that we can be taught. Help us Father to develop the love you and your Son have shown us in the sacrifice he made on our behalf. We ask that you show others the truth about your Son through your Holy Word and to continue bringing us together so that we can become united in him and him in you. May your love and kindness continue to bear fruit among those that are here and to lift up our hearts so that we can proclaim the Good News with strength and conviction. Through your Son and our redeemer, Christ Jesus



  48. John S. says:



  49. Rachel says:

    I know it had been a long time since you all have discussed this, but I hope it is not too late to get a reply. I have a question about the calculations that were shown above to compute the 2520 years. I showed this to one of the jw missionaries I was studying with and she said that the 360 day calculation doesn’t matter because it would all even out in the end when you add the days back in. I don’t recall the exact way the Jewish calendar worked but they added so many extra days back in every 7 years or so. I was told that when you added those missing days back in, you would still end up with the year 1914. How would you respond to that? I your knowledge on the matter would be greatly appreciated.


  50. Victor says:

    I have no problem with 1914. I definitely disregard 587 as correct, making 1934 as the beginning of the last days. I’ll explain. (All scriptures refer to the NWT rendering)

    It begins with Revelation 1:10. The prophecy in Revelation happens after the start of the “Lord’s Day”.

    For me it revolves around the “Image of the Wild Beast” and the “Scarlet Colored Wild Beast”.

    I believe the Wild Beast spoken of at Rev. 13:11-13 is the 7th world power-the Anglo-American world power.

    This world power gives life to the “Image of the Wild Beast” which I do believe was the League of Nations, formed around 1919/1920. (Rev. 13:15)

    Yes, it was still around in 1934, but it was given life in 1919/1920- well before 1934, which the Lord’s day wouldn’t have started until 1934 if 587 was correct.

    The Image of the Wild Beast goes into the abyss at WWII and ascends out of it around 1945.

    The Scarlet Colored Wild Beast still has things to do in the future. Such scriptures as Psalm 2:2 and Rev. 17:13,17 leave me to believe that the nations will form their One World Govt.

    Especially the phrase : Even Their One Thought Of Giving Their Kingdom to the Wild Beast in Rev. 17:17.

    Their = 10 horns that represent 10 kings that represent all the kings of the earth.

    All the kings of the earth have one thought of giving their kingdom to the wild beast.

    In this verse the wild beast is represented by the U.N.

    Basically to me, this phrase in Rev. 17:17 says:

    All the kings of the earth give their kingdom to the
    United Nations.

    This sounds like the one world govt. aka New World Order of the ill…umin…ati…(have to break it up for SEO)

    Psalm 2:2 basically says that the kings and high officials unite as ONE against Jehovah and against His Anointed One. I believe verse 9 gives the results.

    I have seen speeches where Obama says he is looking forward to a New International Order which will bring about Peace and Security.

    In a nut shell I believe the One World Govt. will be formed and it is the source of the special cry of Peace and Security.

    These are my thoughts.

    Regardless what is thought about 607/1914 I strongly disagree with 587 being correct.


  51. Anonymous says:

    Whether it was 586 or 587 BCE , we need to now be looking to the signs that were fortold for our own situation . These estimates of time , which try to pinpoint the year of the final end of this system , are not very reliable . The end of this system will be some years away from now . At least 3 1/2 years .


  52. Chris says:


    In saying “at least 3 1/2 years” are you setting a minimum date from now for some reason?


  53. DanielB says:

    Yes Chris . There will be 3 1/2 years of oppression , known as the “Great Tribulation” ( or “great oppression” ) , depending upon which Bible we are looking at .

    A point here , is that the 3 1/2 years of oppression have not yet begun . Here is an interesting and informative link on this point :


    So my answer is “Yes”, to my acknowledging of a minimum time from now , until Armageddon , of at least 3 1/2 years .

    We are living in an interesting timetable , won’t you agree ?

    Your brother ,

    in Christ ,


    ( I showed up as “Anonymous” somehow . I hate that , when my identity is set back to a defaulted : “Anonymous” . )

    I am “bro dan” , “DanielB” .
    Please reply Chris . . .


  54. Chris says:

    Hi Bro Dan,

    Sorry, I misunderstood your comment to mean that the 3 1/2 years had started now, rather than when the GT starts it will last for at least 3 1/2 years.
    These certainly are remarkable times…..but I am increasingly hopeful and happy in the knowledge I am gaining of real truth, after so many years of spiritual paralysis.
    All thanks and praise to our Father and his Son.


  55. thomas says:

    Did Jesus say? Matt 24:11 “False prophets will appear and deceive (fool).” Matt 24:30 the word “see with there own eyes.” Not spirital eyes. whith there physical eyes.
    Read Rom 6:9, Mark 16:6, Acts 17:31, John 2:19, Heb 10:12, John 20:25, John 20:27

    Watchtower – Jan 15, 1966 p63

    Q: Did this happen in 1914? Matt 24:29

    Q: Did trumpet sound in 1914? Matt 24:31

    Matt 24:36, Matt 24:42, Matt 24:44, Matt 25:13


  56. thomas says:

    Read Deut 18:21-22

    “…that prophet shall die.” Deut 18:20


  57. BeenMislead says:

    Yes … there is a problem with their math! You either use lunar days for both calculations or solar. You cannot mix both, just to suit your beliefs. But TIME is also a problem for their 1914 date.

    Time eventually revealed that the prediction that the end was coming in 1925 was wrong/false.

    Time eventually revealed that the prediction that the end was coming in 1975 was wrong/false.

    And guess what … Time has now revealed that the teaching that Jesus became King of the heavenly Kingdom and invisibly arrived on earth and started to rule over mankind in 1914 is wrong/false. The fact remains the GENERATION OF 1914 HAS PASSED AWAY!

    But admitting that Jesus did not make an invisible arrival on earth in 1914, would mean addmitting that Jesus did not appoint them as the sole channel of truth on earth in 1919. And would absolutely destroy their (the GB’s) superiority as the divinely appointed channel.



  58. Reader says:

    Wouldn’t the “Gentile Times” pause for Jesus’ earthly sojourn?


  59. Reader says:

    Day for Year etc.
    Not a faith issue but a thought…….
    Earth was disrupted at the flood cataclysm, how much is subject to conjecture.
    Was the Earths orbit/rotation disrupted by this? [also Joshua’s sun miracle]
    If the Earth’s orbital system was Created as a timepiece and this was maybe seen by pre-flood generations.
    WHY IN MODERN GEOMETRY are there still 360 degrees in a circle?
    It might suggest that while geometry was in its infancy, man had a 360 day year.
    Of course Earth may be moving away from the Sun, just as the Moon is moving very slowly away from Earth.


  60. mm says:

    wts made a mistake when equaling biblical expression “time” with prophetic year. So, jj repeat it. There is no reason to equal time with year! There are no mixing of different types of years! Society calculated duration of seven “times”, express it in days, and apply Num 14:34. By the way, i am not against you because i believe that gb took too much power in their hand and they promote some false teachings. But I believe, after thorough study, they are right as far as 1914 is concerned. Did anyone read this: http://www.jehovahsjudgment.co.uk/607/ I would like to hear your opinion…


    • JJ says:


      You are free to believe this through your research brother. I cannot see how that date could be right in light of all that I have learned. Bible scholars, archaeologists, Israel, etc. all feel 586/587 BC is accurate and does not conflict with the scriptures.

      There are some apologists such as the one at the link that will discard their findings, but regardless of 587 there is no way IMO that the God of the universe would only bless and choose a small group in New York as their exclusive channel on earth. He could he be so some small and narrow?


  61. Londo says:


    I am sorry. I am late this conversation and this whole thread. I believe the website you are referring to is full of bad argumentation. From the Bible’s viewpoint, 607 BC is wrong. Jeremiah 25:12 in itself shows that the 70 years ended in 539 BC. Ezra 1:1 and Ezra 3:1 show that the Jews’ returned in Tishri 538 BC. Zechariah chapter 1 and 7 shows that Jerusalem had been devastated about 70 years before…if you calculate back, you end up around the timeframe that the historical evidence shows, about the year 587 BC timeframe.

    And then there is all the historical evidence like VAT4956, the economic tablets, the Adda Guppi stele, ect…

    As far as the signs since 1914—pestilences and famines has markedly decreased in comparison to all the previous centuries of humanity’s existence. World War I was not the first world war and in terms of death toll, there were two wars in the 19th century that outdid this. The Watchtower has now basically admitted that the frequency of earthquakes are the same.

    Jesus told his disciples that it did not belong to them to know “times and seasons”—therefore, setting a date such as 1914 is creating a “season”. Jesus warned of people who would say “The Time is At Hand”—see the Russell publication by the same name. Paul warned Christians not to be shaken if even credible people have said “the Day of the Lord” has arrived. Think of the song, “This is Jehovah’s Day.” We need to heed these warnings.


  62. Londo says:

    BTW…making videos is not my arena, but I’m hoping to have a series in regard 607…then 1914. Here is the intro. It is mostly fluff, but hopefully the following episodes will have more meat around them.


  63. Reader says:

    Dear All;
    Don’t throw out ‘day for year’ quite so easily, there is some pedigree in it.
    The fulfilled Daniel prophecy of the temple rebuilding and Messiah was in weeks of years.
    The wilderness wanderings were in years for days.
    Maybe we haven’t ‘got it’ right yet?


  64. mm says:

    I know that wts did not do great job in defending seven times. Their argumentation are pretty weak, but this guys did it fine.Read it before you discard it.I do not support completely their evidence, but they are compelling. Here are some excerpts: “Why Dani el Used the Word ‘ Ti mes’ not
    Many claim that the tree dream only applied to Neb,
    that he would have his sickness for 7 years and then be
    restored after that 7 years, and it has no further application.


    to use concerning the tree was not the same word
    used for the word ‘year’. He used the word iddan which
    means epoch, age, seasons, or times. Iddan is not the
    word that would be used merely to describe one year if
    one year is what is meant. There is a different word used
    to describe the word ‘year’. For example, the word for
    year in Hebrew is shana. By using the word iddan it becomes

    wanted to convey the thought
    that something was meant beyond a simple seven years
    otherwise why not just use the word for years?
    What can we conclude concerning Daniel’s use of the
    word iddan? That Daniel must have used that word for
    ‘times’ for some purpose, or was directed by Jehovah to
    do so. We have to wonder why? Why use the word ‘times’
    instead of years? There must be a reason. If the tree
    dream is only to be applied to Nebuchadnezzar then why
    didn’t the prophecy simply say 7 years. Why 7 times?
    Consider the fact that Revelation later shows us that 7
    times can equal 2,520. So, apparently it was meant for 7
    times to be deciphered as 2,520 in order to show us that
    it has greater significance other than just the 7 years
    upon Neb. Otherwise, why the clues? Was it Jehovah’s
    intention to mislead Bible readers?
    There can be no doubt that the mention of times in
    Revelation was only written to help us figure out the the
    length of seven times in Daniel. Otherwise, John could
    have just been directed to write 1,260 days — there was
    no need whatsoever for him to repeat himself and also
    write ‘time times and half of times’, because it does not
    help us in the interpretation of Revelation at all. In other
    words, the 7 times in Daniel do not help us to figure out
    what the 3½ times are in Revelation. It is the other way
    Consider this: If 7 times mean only 7 years, then
    Daniel could have simply said 7 years. Then Revelation
    could have simply said 3½ years or 1,260 days or 42
    months. And nobody would ever even need to mention
    ‘times’ and everyone would be happy and understand it
    all. Furthermore, Daniel’s mention of 3½ times in connection

    with 1,260 days could also have been removed,
    as the same number — 1,260 days — is also mentioned
    in Revelation. The whole business of “times” is superflu-
    ous — unless it used as a key in understanding the 7


  65. mm says:

    Londo, answer for your question is not simple. Uniqueness of WWI lies in fact that not merely professional armies, but whole NATIONS and almost all states in the world were involved in it (Mathew 24:7)! Historians called that slaughter WORLD WAR, not wts or Russel! It is difficult to properly count victims of that war due to Spanish flu. According to new estimates, the epidemics killed between 50 and 100 million people. Some would say that much less people would die of flu if there was no war. How many exactly, we can not know for sure! You are right when you are saying that the frequency of the (great) earthquakes remains approximately the same, but it is known that human activity can cause smaller earthquakes and kill people. Also, densely populated cities with huge buildings make us more vulnerable to this natural disaster, especially when buildings are not built properly and population live near earthquake prone sites. So, Jehovah count eartquakes which affect people and we have reasons to believe they really do affect us more than ever before!


  66. Londo111 says:


    It is important to realize there were 10 “world wars” before WWI.


    If one goes by death toll, there were wars previous to WWI that exceed it. As a whole, humanity is less violent than they were in times past, especially in the Middle Ages when life was cheap.

    As bad as the Spanish Flu was, it was nothing compared to the pestilences that effected mankind in the 19th century, not to mention previous centuries (like the Black Death). These diseases often affected children and prior to the 20th century, many children did not live to see adulthood. The reason there is a population explosion in the past century or so is because of the advances in medicine, as well the retreat of outright starvation. More children grow up to be adults who have children.

    Matthew 24:7 is often misused by many groups. In verses 4-7, Jesus was warning against being misled by false teachers and prophets. He further states that we shouldn’t be shaken by wars. These things are a fact of life—history will be full of wars, famines, pestilences, earthquakes. We cannot use them to make predictions. The Bible said the end would come “as a thief”, that is quietly and unpredictably.

    Of course, Jesus said these things in reference to the apostles asking about the destruction of Jerusalem, the end of the age. And Jesus foretold a Great Tribulation. He also told them that, “This generation will not pass away” until everything he said came to pass. And he was right! That generation did not pass away—the End came in 70 AD. Many people try to separate the events of the first century somehow from a future fulfillment, but that is not a very natural reading. I am confidence that Matthew 24 was fulfilled by 70, especially when one takes into account the Old Testament metaphors that Jesus was using that had been similarly applied to other judgments (like that in 587 BC).


  67. mm says:

    Londo, I have checked these links again. Did you noticed that in all these “world wars” great majority of Asian and African people or states were not involved? As you know Asia is the most populous continent, and in past centuries percentage of Asians in world population was even greater! Contrary to these previous intercontinental wars, WWI encompass almost all Asia and Africa. In fact, few states in whole wide world remain neutral! I took a look on List of wars and anthropogenic disasters also. It confirms what I said previously – it is hard to count victims of WWI, and other wars also! According to lowest estimate WWI takes 7th place. But if we count highest estimates WWI is on 2nd place of the most deadliest wars, right after WWII. Whether WWI deserves 2nd or 7th place is not important. Like I said the important thing is that war was global (Rev 6:4) and WHOLE NATIONS


  68. mm says:

    (not a handful mercenaries) were involved. Never before more than 70 million military personnel were involved in conflict. Never before culture and economy were almost completely subdued to war efforts! You have right to believe that Jesus did not give sign of his presence to his disciples and I have right to believe opposite. But did you really examined the facts? Did you read http://www.jehovahsjudgment.co.uk/607/ ????


    • whateverhappenedtome says:

      i have to say the link http://www.jehovahsjudgment.co.uk/ is interesting..it will b good to examine it and have exchange of ideas.
      but i also have to say the site looks like being run by a jw apologist or something..


    • Chris says:

      I have read the article at this link several times, and apart from its obvious and arrogant apologist tone, it does raise some interesting questions. But it does so by implying that if we don’t believe in 607 BCE then we are rejecting God’s word and the apparent scriptural framework around the 70 years.
      However NONE of us are rejecting the Scriptures, just their erroneous interpretation by a group of self appointed men. Please consider the following link that I have also read several times and find reassuring.


  69. Londo says:

    I’ve looking at the website. It is full of bad argumentation. One first read it may seem plausible, but on further reading, the cracks start to show. The last time I looked at it, they had removed the VAT 4956 section.

    I’ve downloaded the astronomy software. I’ve checked VAT 4956. The 37th year of Nebuchadnezzar was 568 BC, not 588 BC. That arrangement of planets occur only once in thousands of years. And when considering all the other evidence, it’s just a slam dunk case.

    The Bible itself points to around 587 BC. But one cannot naturally calculate 607 from the Bible…not without “evidently” and “perhaps” and “possibly”.

    (1) Jeremiah 25:12 shows the 70 years ended in 539 BC.
    (2) Ezra 1:1, 3:1 shows the Jews returned in 538 BC.
    (3) Zechariah 1 points back to around the time of the Babylonian siege, a year or two before 587 BC.
    (4) In Jeremiah 29, Jeremiah was talking to the Jews already in Exile, and telling them to prepare for a long stay. This was about 10 years before Jerusalem as destroyed.
    (5) Jeremiah shows there was a third wave of exiles years after the second (when Jerusalem was destroyed). Therefore, the land could not have been totally depopulated then.

    Alas…this is just stuff coming to me off the top of my head. It’s late. Eventually I hope to have a Youtube series discussing this stuff in detail.


  70. Reader says:

    Problems are compounded by this pulling Daniel into Revelation. The 1335 & 1260 start from 680/681ce and are probably years. [just my view.]
    The “Ships of Kittim” are a real event, where Islam [now K.o.S] built ships to attack the eastern Roman Emperor[still K.o.N] and nearly killed him.
    http://yahweh-immanuel.info/sh.....ittim.html check this and move the Daniel verses to where they belong.
    Then you can sort the wood from the trees!


  71. mm says:

    Hmmm, I feel very insecure in dealing with Vat 4956 because 1. I am not an archaeologist 2 My knowledge of that ancient language is as good as my knowledge of Japanese, Chinese or Portuguese language 3 My knowledge of astronomy is equally good as my knowledge of these languages and other several thousands languages also. Still, I have some comments. 1 Vat 4956 is a copy, maybe copy of copy of copy of copy etc… During that process some mistakes can occur and even jonson admit mistakes were found! He claims that modern archeology found and correct it easily, but history teach us to be more humble, because even 21st century educated people make mistakes!! 2 according to this link http://www.jehovahs-witness.ne.....-587-B-C-E Furuli challenged 568/67 b.c in favor of 588/87 as 37th year of and was defeated because his observations fits Excellent in 2 cases, Mostly good in 1, partially good in 4 , but bad in 5 cases. On other side, traditional chronology was vindicated with 9 excellent fits, but there is 1 inaccurate and 2 bad fits!!! In summary Furulis calculation is substantially good (7 good versus 5 bad) but traditional interpretation is better (9 versus 3). Is it obvious that traditional chronology does not deserve an A? Why should I consider this evidence rock solid when there is 25% of mismatch? So, I would like to propose that vat 4956 has one mistake which passed undetected, the 37th year. It is possible that some scribe dealing with damaged document misinterpreted 27 or 32 or who knows what with 37 and this is it!! So, it is better to base our opinion on the bible. Londo, your observation about return in 538 bc. seems correct. I think now that Jeremiah was not predicted full 70 years of desolation, but these 70 years should be calculated like Jesus 3 days in the grave (Matthew 12:40). Other objections are not founded and mentioned guys refute it! These guys really are jw apologist, but they are not so orthodox because they broke gb rule which in esssence is: Only governing body has authority to explain Holy Scriptures!


  72. mm says:

    HMMM, I feel very uncomfortable in dealing with vat 4956 because 1 I am not an archeologist 2 My knowledge of this ancient language is as good as my knowledge of

    Japanese, Chinese and Arabic language 3 My knowledge of astronomy is equally good as my knowledge of thousands languages also! Still, I have some comments.Vat 4956 is

    a copy, maybe even copy of copy of copy of copy etc… During this process some errors can occur and even Jonson admits some errors were found!! He also claims that

    modern science can easily detect these errors, although history teach us to be more humble. Even modern archeologist can and do make mistakes!! If we look this link

    http://www.jehovahs-witness.ne.....-587-B-C-E we will find out that Furuli

    challenged accepted chronology and was defeated? His calculations proved to be Excellent in 2, Mostly good in 1, Partially good in 4, and bad in 5 cases. Accepted

    chhronology calculations proved to be Excellent in 9, but Inaccurate in 1 and bad in 2 cases. In summary, Furuli calculations proved to be substantially good (7 versus

    5) but traditional chronology was even better (9 versus 3)! Is it obvious that traditional interpretation does not deserve an A? Why should I consider vat 4956 as

    rock solid evidence that 37th year of Nebuchadnezzar corresponding to the 568/67 bc. when there is 25% of mismatch?? So, I propose that archaeologists did not detect one

    error and this is number-37.It is possible that some scribe dealing with damaged copy misinterpreted 27, 32 or who knows what number with 37 and this is it! It is

    possible that Furuli and traditionalists also did not understood Vat 4956 correctly.It is possible also, that I am an error by proposing 37 is an error, but this does

    not prove that traditional chronology is not erroneous. So, it is much wiser to base our opinion on word of God. Londo, your evidence that Jews returned in 538 bc.

    seeems to be valid. I am now inclined to believe that 70 years of desolation are not full years. Maybe we should calculate them as Jesus calculated 3 days and nights

    in Matthew 12:40! But, other assumptions are wrong and mentioned guys refute it (you know the link)!Yes, they are jw apologist, but are they anathematized and by whom?

    Do not consider them as enemies because they broke (probable unintentionally) sacred commandment of governing body: “Do not think, because gb think and interpret

    bible, and you can only spread our interpretation of the bible!”


  73. mm says:

    I have read perimeno article.Parts about GB are eye-opening, but I believe it is for Jehovah to decide who will be destroyed or bring to nothing (Matthew 5:22). However, their deeds strongly suggests they deserve to be punished (Matthew 7:15-20;Luke 12:42-48).I think that the writer of article is sincere Christian, but he made errors because he let emotions to lead him, and I fall in that trap many times (Jeremiah 17:9). It is the fact that JW leaders made many mistakes, and some of them are very amusing, but this fact should not grant us to view all their teachings as false, without any evaluation (1 John 4:1)! Writer made parallel between priests in 1st century and JW leaders. High priest was indeed evil person, but Jehovah enticed him to pronounce important truth (John 11:49-52). Is it possible that Jehovah used unreasonable Russell to convey important truth about 1914? I believe it is! I am not wiser than HIM, SO NOT IN POSITION TO TELL WHAT GOD SHOULD OR SHOULD NOT DO!! I wish to encourage all to read carefully 2 chronicles 36:19-23 and Daniel 9:2.Pray Jehovah for guidance. Ask yourself: What Daniel and writer of chronicles discern as starting point of 70 years of servitude? When servitude starts according to 2 Chr 36:20? Did that writer blindly believed that 70 years were fulfilled, or did he have evidence, solid proof that years of servitude started and came to the end according to Jeremiah prophecy? If I choose first option, how can I defend my faith against some skeptic? Would my attitude give him a reason to believe that faith is blind and irrational? So,it does matter.Maybe, for majority of you who are refusing 1914 as the beginning of Christ presence,the problem is fear of acceptance “faithful and discreet slave”.But there is no need to accept the appointment, because it is unscriptural.I think that R.Franz already explained that slave will receive reward during Christ coming, not presence, which is still in the future (Matthew 24:46)!


  74. reader says:

    Been doing some inquiry into Matthew 24 etc, there is a time perspective many miss [I did], so I’ve made a chart and its on my website;


  75. Christopher Johns says:

    I wanted to believe that they had to truth. I think this 1878 vs 1914 just hit the nail on the head. Now where do I go? I do believe a lot about what they say. Most churches don’t do God’s will or believe in error like the trinity. Makes me feel as if Christianity is just a drop in the hat of all other religions. Just one of many which no one knows. I may just be agnostic. :(


    • JJ says:

      Christopher it’s nice to have you visit and comment here. When you express your disillusionment it strikes a chord with many of us and we feel your pain. Do not give up in your quest for knowledge and self-enlightenment though!

      The answers are out there for you and indeed for each of us; they just may not be the exact same ones for everyone. This example of black-and-white thinking has been ingrained into us by the Watchtower Organization, namely, that everyone should believe all the same and that there can only be “one truth”. This is not the way life works. We are each on a path of discovery in this life and we each follow an arc that God directs for us.

      This video may be of some assistance to you here: Follow Your Arc!

      Don’t get bogged down in doctrine, as that is not what is going to save or not save us. Faith and love trump dogmatism every time IMO!


  76. Frank says:

    It seems that at least some of the material used in this article was taken from two articles I wrote on Governingbody.org a few years ago. Lonelysheep was someone who recommended the information and wrote on another site about this discovery. Of course, the information wasn’t original to me and was inspired by another blogger (cut and pasted in on of my articles) who pointed out this rather obvious fact – that it would require 2 calendars to ‘reboot’ this flawed equation. 1878 is no good to the WTBTS because Russell was due to print the first edition of Watchtower one year (Gregorian) later!!! Nothing would have fitted.

    Since then I tend only to use the expression ‘solar years’ rather than ‘Gregorian years’ as the difference between these and the Julian Calendar is only hours.

    Needless to say, this fact blew my mind, and reminded me how our heart becomes the vehicle for our mind to veer off the important issues in life. What got me thinking was a book that stated that everyone who is born tends to think they are living in the “Time of the End.” If one saw their entire family laid in earth by the Black Plague, this would be sufficient. If all one’s friends were all killed in war, this too would be sufficient. Today we see greater numbers of people being killed in warfare today a religion re-loads and indoctrinates our minds with its particular interpretation of world events.

    The fact is, that Jesus said no one knew the day or the hour. Watchtower apparently thought this didn’t include the year. Only now after a litany of failed dates do they learn what should have been basic to a genuine Bible student.



  77. JimmyG says:

    1874 was said to mark the beginning of Christ’s presence and 1878 the year Christ’s reign began.

    I’m sure the WT’s governing body know all this, but they have reinforced this 1914 nonsense with articles appearing in the first WT study edition of 2014.

    I guess they feel they’re stuck with this turkey.


    • JJ says:

      Exactly so. And since the average publisher has only a vague and fuzzy idea of the whole 1914 chronology anyway it makes little difference. They can just trumpet how wonderful things are and how close we are to the end and then roll out a new book or Bible and the loyal Witness drones will clap their hands in glee over it.


  78. ruth says:

    hi christopher Johns.

    Go to the forum your eyes will really open up there. its on the top of this page.
    press forum and you will see so many incredible stories with the ones walking away from the TOWER. Plus you will be encouraged. Truth seekers see far to many lies in the TOWER


    • JJ says:

      Thank you for mentioning that Sister Ruth, and thank you for being such a wonderful and mature influence to those that are open-minded and seeking knowledge.


  79. Frank says:

    Hi JimmyG. Yes, the whole house of cards will collapse. Of course, the arrogance is that the GB can be both right and wrong simultaneously based on their own perception that they have been gifted divine authority with no consequences when what was thought right is proved wrong. That’s all that’s needed. Personally, nowadays I prefer the discipline of science to human claims of divine wisdom.



  80. Frank says:

    If any confidently-smiling Witness comes to you and claims that, as God created the sun, then it is obvious that Bible prophecy is counted in solar years, kindly remind him that when you divide the 1,260 days found in Revelation by the 42 months in the same book, the answer is – 30

    Ah, but he chides, perhaps some of the months were 30 days and others 31, showing a definite solar aspect to the time period. Yes, but he must remember that both these totals describe 3 and half years. Are they solar years or Biblical Jewish average-lunar years? If the Witness wishes to have solar years he is obliged to add a further 18.37 days to 1,260 days, making it 1,278.37 days!
    Would the Apostle John, a Jew, have in mind the Julian calendar or the Jewish calendar? What would he have understood? Did he have an abacus with him?

    I think it’s time (pun intended) to lay a wreath at the year 1914, don’t you?



    • JJ says:

      Bravo Frank- yes 1914 is getting quite long in the tooth!
      Watchtower is currently rebranding itself and may soon shed this embarrassment but not yet…


  81. Reader says:

    They used the inter-calary month to correct Lunar calendar to a seasonal/solar one every 19 years I understand. (mettonic cycle?)
    So long term the two calendars would merge.
    Farming demands a real seasonal year format, number of harvests= number of years.
    1914 distracts.


  82. Frank says:

    Hi Reader. How would using the inter-calary calendar change anything? Two ‘supporting proofs’ are raised by the WTBTS:

    1 Numbers – a day for a year. This is taken literally or the ‘proof’ doesn’t work.

    2 A time period in Revelation 11 and 12 – 1,260 days, 42 months, and ‘time, times, and half a time.’

    Is the Revelation ‘proof’ literal or is there temporal wriggle-room? If one accepts the first ‘Biblical proof’ then one must accept the second. The length of days is not under dispute; the length of a month could be. As the ‘times, time, and half a time’ is interpreted as 3 and half years and is similarly literal, then the only question is: is this time period a Julian (later Gregorian) time period or an Jewish lunar average time period?

    One could argue this philosophically, but if a Witness claims convenient wriggle-room, then they must explain the time difference between a Jewish lunar year and a Roman solar year IN THE REVELATION PROPHECY! There is quite a difference; actually 36.2 solar years between 1878 (solar measurement) and 1914 (solar measurement).

    If the inter-calary timeline is useful here, where is the Biblical precedent?

    Remember, only 1,260 days (standard length days) are LITERAL. More time for this “Biblical proof” is needed to satisfy that these prophetic aspects are legitimate.

    If like the departure of Jesus to heaven was not noted by mankind in general, why should his enthronement? Why not 1878 AD?



  83. Frank says:

    “The fact that the prophets understood a year as 360 days is well attested. God created the sun to mark the seasons and years. He made the moon to mark the days. There are 354.37 days in a lunar year (of 12 moons/months), and 365.24 days in a solar year; together they average 360 days.”


    The most famous intercalary use is a solar leap year where a day is added to even things up. As stated above the intercalary Jewish equation IS 360 days per lunar year! Beware of smoke and mirrors.

    All prophets of the Bible knew of the 360-day average year and had this in mind when prophesying.



  84. Reader says:

    Dear Frank;
    Put an example link instead my website link, stroke cursor over reader follow to a Jewish link, they can explain their calendar.
    Perhaps as created the Earth did have a 360 day year within human mathematics as there are 360 degrees in a circle.
    see also: http://www.britannica.com/EBch.....onic-cycle


  85. Frank says:

    Hi Reader, Bravo is this is your site. I couldn’t put it better than this:

    365.24 (solar) + 354.37 (lunar) = 719.61 ÷ 2 = 359.8 days.
    (I.e., approx. 360 of prophetic.)

    The WTBTS wishes to murk up the waters by stating that more time is needed than 2520 x 360 to make up a Roman solar year. How so?



  86. Reader says:

    Dear Frank;
    No a Jewish site and Enc. Britannica, I think 1914 is a logic construct which though not entirely illogical [for the time] the Scripture does not direct the reader to that solution, which is unsteady reasoning.


  87. Frank says:

    Reader, like the WTBTS, you are muddying the waters. There is a difference between Jewish calendars that expressed moon and earth cycles used for agrarian purposes and a Biblical PROPHETIC year. It seems more logical to have the simple, though not simplistic concept of each year representative of the average between the two great luminaries created by God. Use Occam’s razor, mate.



  88. Frank says:

    Here’s your challenge, Reader. Just as I’m sure you can explain the present simple teaching of the “Generation” from recent issues of the Watchtower, likely you can show all here a printed timeline that includes the Lunisolar calendar, the Intercalary calendar, Metatonic Cycles of the Jewish Calendar etc. and all will be established.

    So far many of us will remember the classic “7 times” equation from the Live Forever book. As this simplistic concept was expressed only in solar years, it explains nothing and has no workings. What would establish the truth are the workings and a layout that would make the complex easier to understand and would promote this issue from an article of faith to fact.

    Can you do that, Reader?



  89. Frank says:

    while you do that, Reader, please read “Prophetic Years” article on Wikipedia. This helps to see that a prophetic year is different from the Europeanised lunisolar calendar which is that international way for calendars in many cultures offset their dates by the solar calendar.



  90. Reader says:

    Dear Frank;
    No can do, not read WT for about 20yrs, faded 95/96 ish.
    My faith in WTBTS extinguished but not my faith in God. I am not of any Atheist persuasion nonetheless nor have I joined any other Faith.
    I suppose that I’ve cooled a little -if I take care.

    “Generation”, for myself; I don’t think its started to count yet.
    The Jews had a religious calendar and a secular one, every 19 years these can be matched up again, doubt this would phase the Jews -like it does Christians.

    The religious calendar really only had to run in 50yr sections, the secular much as ours do.

    This is all I can offer so far:
    Once the “Ships of Kittim” were located [not Brit navy 1914 war as WT], Daniel made more sense.

    I study because I don’t know all the answers.


  91. ruth says:

    Thank you so much JJ! l really appreciate what you said.
    l Appreciate that Father is sending his lost sheep over here so they can see they are not alone.
    Sister Ruth


  92. Frank says:

    Thank you for your honesty, Reader. I guess all I’m saying is that the WTBTS simply makes unfalsifiable claims that become foundational to member ship in the JWs and are placed on a par with clearly-identifiable Biblical doctrine. Denying this year is apostasy and is only ‘true’ because it comes from “Christ’s brothers.”

    To make this claim viable would require a properly set out proof timeline showing clearly and simply how the Jewish calendar matches up to 1914 AD and its all over for us sceptics.

    SI book might help, but as far as I know there is not specific timeline that marks this prophecy out.

    Prophetic years are not solar, lunar, or lunisolar – they are specific to the subject.



  93. Reader says:

    Dear Frank;
    As far as I understand, only one prophecy works if the ‘prophetic year’ is in the math [seventy weeks] and then this fulfilment was for the Jews, in their times.

    For prophecy to Gentiles why should a pre-christian math apply?
    Besides the ordinary solar year IS fully Ordained at Genesis 1 v 14,18 & 19.

    So I suggest the 1290,1335 are solar ordinary years though I think the three & half days are God’s days ‘a day X 1000 years’. My reasoning for that is by how these times are described.

    I am not ordering anybody to accept any of this, unless they feel it makes sense to them. We are believers sharing opinions.

    I think that one day some activity by Jehovah or Jesus will have us all sit up shocked, while the world changes underwear believers will rush to their Bibles to re-calibrate our understanding of these things.

    I present all, subject to Acts 17 v 11.


  94. Frank says:

    Genesis, 1:14 “And God said, “Let there be lights in the vault of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark sacred times, and days and years”

    By “them,” Reader, it means MOON and sun. I reiterate, 360 day-years are the average and honours that God created both luminaries.



  95. Frank says:

    Reader, your second paragraph confuses me. How can 1290 be solar years? How can 1335? How also can time, times, and half a time be a thousand years? Are you saying this ‘time’ period is 3,500 years or are you being philosophical?

    Average lunar/solar years are God’s timetable. God created both luminaries, so it is arrogance to think that God uses a European calendar or even a standard Jewish calendar. It doesn’t have to be complicated if we accept the obvious.



    • Reader says:

      Dear Frank;
      “For prophecy to Gentiles why should a pre-christian math apply?
      Besides the ordinary solar year IS fully Ordained at Genesis 1 v 14,18 & 19.”

      Sorry, by this I was trying to simplify.

      The Genesis year is the Natural one, and is as much an ordination of God as the Jewish religious Calendar, this Jewish one used inserted extra months to be re-aligned with the Solar natural. Its major cycle being around a human life span [Jubilee]. A leap year by month rather than a day.

      If the argument is made for long time periods then it can be expected the two would not be that far apart because of the Ve-Adar month insertion. Ancient stone cycles show man knew it went:

      winter solstice-spring equinox-summer solstice-autumn equinox=a year
      One bronze artifact found in Europe shows a Metonic cycle.


      WTBS makes some of the Daniel times literal days, but then it gets difficult to fit exactly to a day. For myself I think if God gives time to a day it will be accurate to hours, if He gives it in years it will be accurate to months.
      The purpose of giving it will be or become clear.

      I spent some time Sketching out diagrams of these numbers;
      Then I thought perhaps the 2300 and 1335 end together or are very close, so subtract 1335 from 2300 =965 so then I took this from the present year and Googled for Cyprus ships [with a time margin] and found the Ships of Kittim 655ce.

      I have more than one solution for the 1290 and I think thats in years, but not entirely happy with these as yet.

      On the 3.5 days, which reappears in a few guises, its what is happening in those 3.5s scenarios which made me doubt these being literal Earth days;

      1. Tend to be ordained periods
      2. Seems to bracket other happenings

      One reason for day for a year is human sin or short-cominmgs but the 3.5s fall on those doing God’s will.

      In Daniel 12 v 7 time times + half note the qualifier at the verse end.
      In Revelation 11 v 3 the two witnesses prophecy 1260 days and at the end are raptured v 12. Also the miracles of the witnessses verse 5 & 6 would suggest a longer period of Human time 3500 years should about cover it.

      3500 about the time Jehovah has had a representive group on Earth.

      Hope this helps, spend a lot of time working by myself.
      22:39 GMT,Zulu,UTM


  96. Frank says:

    Hi Reader. I salute your extensive research into this subject. Perhaps one clue whether these prophetic times are literal or figurative is that that divisions of 7 keep coming up. The Bible contains limited types of numbers such as 7 and 3.5. If we see God’s will as encoded into an ancient text then obviously interpretation is needed and many opinions will come forth.

    As an agnostic I would have to wonder at the ingenuousness of 2 Peter 3:9 which tells us that God wants to save everyone. Why should prophetic time be so complicated? Add to this that some scholars believe that both both Daniel and Revelation were forgeries (people writing under well-known names for the recognition in a time when there was no such thing as copyright), one has to ask where this leaves anyone who needs to have faith in something, anything.

    I’m not sure why you refer to a solar year as a ‘natural’ one. Why is this more natural than a lunar year? The European assumption is that all other calendars must measure up to their standards and even the Bible must bow to its reality. If salvation originated with the Jews, then surely as all writers of the Bible were Jews (Hebrews) then is not the Jewish measure the right one?

    Of course, anyone can easily prove that solar years are what the Bible writers had in mind by simply finding another prophecy that could be counted in solar years. The problem is that at least TWO unambiguous absolute dates (uncontroversial) would have to be supplied – the beginning and the end of that period. The WTBTS is fighting on both fronts seeing as it is the only ‘authority’ that is claiming that Nebuchadnezzar conquered Jerusalem in 607 BCE whereas everyone else says 20 years later.



  97. JimmyG says:

    1914 is the WT’s date, using their interpretation of bible prophecies. We can debate till the cows come home, but is the WT’s methodology reasonable in arriving at 1914? Let’s get back to basics, as Frank said, using the principle of Occam’s Razor.

    What is under consideration is ‘prophecy’, more specifically, WT’s interpretation of it. So we need to check their basis for counting time in relation to ‘prophecy’. I quote from the book ‘All scripture is Inspired of God and Beneficial’, p282 para 22:

    “In bible prophecy the word ‘year’ is often used in a special sense as the equivalent of 12 months, each month having 30 days, for a total of 360 days.’ Paragraph 23 goes on to mention Revelation 11:2,3 and 12:6,14 reckoning one ‘time’ as equaling 360 days.

    The WT though, is inconsistent, abandoning the use of ‘prophetic years'(as defined in the above quote), using solar years in arriving at 1914. They can’t have their cake and it eat too.


  98. Reader says:

    Dear Frank;
    Roughly in order;
    Seven infers the Creator as directing.

    “Daniel and Revelation were forgeries.”
    Jesus believes Daniel a prophet Matthew 24 v 15 because he names him so.
    So if you believe Jesus, you believe in Daniel; if you don’t believe in Jesus you have greater problems than this.

    I’m not sure why you refer to a solar year as a ‘natural’ one. Why is this more natural than a lunar year?
    Nature follows year cycles in the main. Stand outside for twelve months – which is natural now?

    607 BCE whereas everyone else says 20 years later.
    The obsession to know the “Gentile times” drives this, but this has a problem;
    If start point, duration, and end point for the Gentile times were known, this would give us the Day of the end which we are not allowed to know. So calculating it will be frustrating.

    And Dear JimmyG -I am not defending WT1914 its an obsession which causes the missing of the Abomination start where the date is 680 – 681ce. About 25 years after the Ships of Kittim event 655ce. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Masts

    In other words WT are 1259 adrift on Daniel here.


    • Frank says:

      Hi Reader.

      Remember that the Gospels were not written at least until 30 years after the events they purport to report. The gospels too were written by names such as John, Matthew, Mark. Were these the genuine disciples or people writing in their name for recognition. See Bart Ehrman’s book on Bible forgeries. The closest actual copy of Mark dates to the second century and is the size of a credit card.


  99. Frank says:

    Hi JimmyG. Yes, they think they can accomplish both activities (silly saying really as what does one do when wanting cake?) This is exactly the presumption. In this case, though, the cake isn’t for eating!

    What has to be remembered is that Charles Russell apparently understood what we are saying here – that each prophetic year was 360 days in length. Then nothing happened. Unlike William Miller, he didn’t simply name his unhappiness, the “Great Disappointment,” Russell got out his jotter and recalibrated. The presumption here is that the recalibration did not take into account what Reader cites from Genesis 1:14; that God himself sets dates by the heavenly bodies (plural). This must mean both the moon and the sun, because searching the stars is called astrology and is a form of forbidden divination.

    The Bible says that (NWT) one day is AS a thousand years and only informs us that his HEAVENLY clock is beyond the comprehension of his temporally-bound creation. To take it literally would mean that he measures by material creations (sun and moon). Genesis mentions, though, that as far as Earthly matters there is no distinction between the lesser and the greater luminaries, so the most obvious candidate for a prophetic year is the average between the two (see equation above). This is the use of Occam’s Razor you may seek, JimmyG.

    Even a superficial reading of the SI book will show quite easily that another solution needed to be found and flitting from calendar to calendar was the pen that joined the dots.



  100. Frank says:

    As to the solar year, one only has to remember the Roman obsession with sun worship and the 25th December soltice Saturnalia.

    The Jewish day ran from sundown to sundown; what makes this less ‘natural’ than midnight to midnight, Reader? The point is that Jews lived by the cycles of the moon; the solar calendar was not only secondary, but almost an afterthought. The New Testament too was written by Jews who had been taught the Torah. One can only get a grasp of Bible prophecy by thinking like a Jew, not a Gentile.

    You might find this book interesting, Reader:

    “Forged: Writing in the Name of God–Why the Bible’s Authors Are Not Who We Think They Are”
    by Bart D. Ehrman



  101. Reader says:

    Dear Frank;
    Somebodies said this or that, what if,
    You might still be circling this for another 100 years.

    “Why don’t you fix your little problem and light this candle?”

    Alan B. Shepard, Jr also longest known golf drive.

    I find the Bible self evident.


  102. Frank says:

    It’s nice that you find the Bible self-evident, Reader, but so do millions of others who hold a different interpretation. Like them, you have to sell your opinion. Sadly God prefers to remain secretive, coded, and aloof as to the simple Occam’s truth we all seek. If you prefer complexity, you are welcome to it. Meanwhile we sceptics will continue to go where the evidence takes us.



  103. Reader says:

    Dear Frank;
    Be sure your skepticism is honest with you.
    It can be a slow poison inspiring an ‘inner mental confidence’ only leading in time to complete inertia.
    Even science has problems with skepticism at times.
    Acts 17 v 11 falls short of actual skepticism, but points to the same goals it claims.
    The ones who added to the talents they were given, did risk them in business.
    As the gamblers say ‘you’ve gotta be in it to win it!’, I don’t advocate gambling but there is a point there ?
    If my suggestion on Daniel 11 v 31 is correct, it may be wrong of course; but it might help put a perspective on the troubles some have had, as they report on this site.
    another quote;
    “A reasonable accepts things as they are and works from there.
    Therefore ALL progress is due to un-reasonable men”


  104. Frank says:

    Actually, Reader, so far my scepticism has only led to truth. Okay, it means I must suspend the fantasy of a perfect Earth for a while until reliable evidence kicks in.

    It seems to me that the dichotomy today is science or a holy book. For the Bible to have anything on which it informs us one has to believe that man has only a 6,000 year history; that the Red Sea opened; millions of Hebrews left Egypt and wandered 40 years in the wilderness; and on an on it goes.

    The alternative is an account of why humans are the way they are. Evolution can genuinely answer these questions with as little evidence as there is. For such answers it isn’t faith we need, only patience.

    I’m sure even you would agree that there is a VERY thin line between faith and credulity, Reader.

    Do you honestly believe that a perfectly moral god would sit hand’s folded while the objects of his love were tortured, flayed, burnt, strangled, drawn and quartered, beheaded etc? What about being created sick and commanded to be well? Isn’t this like enjoying watching your toddler take its first steps but placing broken glass on floor as he/she takes those first precious steps?

    Yes, I do believe that gods will do that, and they are a reflection of our own self-loathing, but you will have to come up with a bit more than vague conjecture to convince me that the claim matches the reality.



  105. Reader says:

    Dear Frank ;
    Your talent is safely buried.


  106. Frank says:

    So what’s your explanation of the distant God who loves us so much he had to hurt us to save us from ourselves, Reader?

    I’m all ears.



  107. Reader says:

    Dear Frank;

    The Bible is about life and death.
    You might get a basic ideas here: http://yahweh-immanuel.info/666.html

    I think I ought to point something out about “skepticism”.
    ” …… my scepticism has only led to truth”

    To be able to make such a statement your life is indeed blessed or has not been all that long as yet?

    However skepticism is a negative or non action term, it might save you from doing something but will not lead you.
    Logically the sentance says “my non action has achieved”.
    Now at times caution is wise, but that should never stretch to always excusing yourself, you will never swim without getting in the water.

    ps; the other answer is 42.


  108. Frank says:

    Hi Reader. I imagine your reference to “42” was Douglas Adams’s answer to ‘life, the universe, and everything.” Cute, but it’s as good an answer as any with ‘truth’s’ ambiguity around us. Faith is all that’s left when one enjoys the morally ambiguous blessings of religions’ Holy Word.

    The fact that love of God is compulsory for it to lead to salvation. That’s not just ambiguous, it’s as Christopher Hitchens put it…creepy. Perhaps a year in North Korea might help you understand this.

    Actually, scpeticism leaves faith in the dust. Faith only requires acceptance of a concept; scepticism vigorously questions same. Do you think it was faith that led me to research ‘divine prophecy’ and question 1914 as Biblically-significant?

    You’re right, though, that the Bible is about life and death. Is it a novel, a truthful affidavit, or something in between that humans just don’t get?

    Have you never wondered why, 6,000 years, the author is still bumping off Adam’s ancestors? No? How about why the world is in this state BECAUSE holy books DO become a ‘how to’ for mankind’s morality?

    And of course, you are right to pick out the ‘truth’ my scepticism led to. I wonder how most JWs understand the “Generation” doctrine as philosophy upon philosophy is layered until, far from explaining the complex, it becomes MORE complex. Is this the religious enlightenment you speak of? At least science intends and works towards something we lowly humans CAN understand rather than dumb down our collective intelligence.



  109. Reader says:

    Dear Frank;
    Skepticism is a poison because it slowly kills belief. and belief when dead causes God to ignore us. James 1 v 6,7
    I can tell you are not looking up the reference links I have given you, you keep asking questions which are answered there and in other writings elsewhere.
    Like a rock climber there is a grasping on the solid to move on up.
    There is a story of the Donkey which starved to death between two equally placed piles of hay.


  110. Frank says:

    Dear Reader, I looked up your last URL…why this obsession with numerology? Is Yahweh a god of numbers? Does faith lead to a maths degree? Can one build faith without a maths degree? Is mathematics the language of alien life?

    Why not just be less opaque and tell me what you really think without the code?

    Is this Christianity or some sort of occult-thing you’ve got going here?

    It is just as much likely that if mankind ignored belief that religion and its first cause might go away. Isn’t it far better for this species finally to outgrow the need to be wetnursed and accept the responsibility for their own actions? Perhaps like me one day you’ll see what’s staring you in the face. The trouble is, like a favourite line in a Robin Williams song…”you don’t want to hear truth, truth is boring.”

    Mankind are both pattern-seekers and story-tellers. Perhaps Deep Throat was right, the answer is 42.



  111. Reader says:

    Dear Frank;

    It was ‘Deep THOUGHT’ that gave the answer 42, pretty sure as I heard the radio then tv but dissapointed in the film.

    Numerology is a study of numbers the idea being the numbers themselves have some sort of inate power.

    I understand numbers as being labels in symbolism, based usually on first use of the respective numbers.

    The challenge is put down for some’one to show the 666 calculation/count, so why not?

    I could be wrong certainly, but I think its the best system available.

    Some pointed out to Adams the serious meanings in 42 (6×7 & 42months) but he said it was just picked as a number.

    There is some clever counter-satire in Scripture, often using number codes.
    The main key to this is Genesis 2 which gives all the clues to solve 666.

    Just that Isaiah 46 v 10 is the clue under everyones nose.

    Which one of the questions in your list do you want answering?

    I have started to do diagrams for the site.


  112. Frank says:

    You are right, Reader, Deep Throat was from the ’70s and was carnal in its referfence. Isn’t it interesting that 42 matches Revelation 12. Co-incidence, I’m sure. There are many theories why the late-lamented Adam’s derived 42.

    Again, I ask why a god who wants all to attain to salvation makes his Word so interpretive and leaves it open to occult influence?

    If you can, answer all questions, though, largely they meant rhetorically. You mention Genesis 2. Please simply and clearly tell me what connects this and 666. And please, no mystery. I’ve had enough of them.

    I find your definition of numerology confusing. The consistent recurrence of 7, 10, 12, 3.5 etc, I think, makes the Bible a candidate for occult literature as it has this in common with other non-Biblical works about similar things. There is no reason to be afraid of the word ‘occult’ as it just means hidden, secret.

    For there to be convincing evidence that God wishes all to repent and be saved I would have expected much more genuine enlightenment and a lot less obscurantism in religion. Today the WTBTS is a corporation that has lost the flavour of Biblical Christianity. Its attitudes to human dignity are greatly contrasted by its own demands that worldy govenments ‘respect’ their right to govern their ‘people’ without interference. This is guaranteed under the First Amendment. It pays no modern JW to look too closely at the reality of how ‘justice’ is metted out to the organisation’s naive acolytes. They may indeed find that there is an occult aspect to it.

    In the meantime, Reader, you tell me what obvious characteristics the true religion should exhibit today. As you say, you are no longer a JW. What has replaced your search for truth. Or have you found it?



  113. Frank says:

    I was just listening to Obama’s speech for Mandela’s Remembrance. As he strung all those American cliches together in his usual well-crafted but tedious lists, I thought of the apostate-talk at the recent convention (not as well-spun). Then I remembered how easy it is to fool the human mind.

    America has a black/white president spouting how his land-of-the-free stands for equality of all men. This is, apparently, self-evident according to the Constitution. Lest we forget, it was the American South that fought for its right to hold black slaves and many non-slave soldiers put their lives on the line to demonstrate their Biblical interpretation as the only true one.

    The WTBTS fights the same battle; its right to keep itself free from the scourge of apostates. It DEMANDS its Constitutional right to ‘fight the fine fight’ in any way it sees fit. As one would expect of corporate-think, it uses and abuses human rights for the sake of the growth of the entity. The Internet is truly socialist and bites back very effectively and reveals what the entity tries to keep in the dark.

    In case anyone hasn’t guessed yet, America also is run as a corporation.



  114. Reader says:

    Dear Frank;

    The answers;
    Post:110 Frank says:
    December 9, 2013 at 12:51 am
    why this obsession with numerology? It may be a little daunting at first appearance, but the math is children’s level, in other circumstances these could have been coloured flags. But the initiation of some things does come with the numbers, it’s the way the cookie crumbles.
    Is Yahweh a god of numbers? Yes: but every numerology drops out of sight compared to numbers in Nature.
    Does faith lead to a maths degree? could
    Can one build faith without a maths degree? yes
    Is mathematics the language of alien life? Don’t know
    Why not just be less opaque and tell me what you really think without the code? If you’ve read Alexander Hislop’s “The Two Babylons”; you might say all I have done is Scripturally finish it without ‘right wing’ Anglican leanings. I will not tell you what to believe [don’t ask], I am not you know who.
    Is this Christianity or some sort of occult-thing you’ve got going here? Never
    It is just as much likely that if mankind ignored belief that religion and its first cause might go away. Isn’t it far better for this species finally to outgrow the need to be wetnursed and accept the responsibility for their own actions? Eden is all about that.
    Again, I ask why a god who wants all to attain to salvation makes his Word so interpretive and leaves it open to occult influence? There is a Devil about, both Yahweh’s and Satan’s actions influence this World. We see/feel a mixture of both.
    You mention Genesis 2. Please simply and clearly tell me what connects this and 666. And please, no mystery. I’ve had enough of them. God tells the End from the Beginning that’s the big clue; go back to the beginning and pick up the actions from there. But remember this is not simple stuff, this is real thinking cap on work.
    I find your definition of numerology confusing. The consistent recurrence of 7, 10, 12, 3.5 etc, I think, makes the Bible a candidate for occult literature as it has this in common with other non-Biblical works about similar things. There is no reason to be afraid of the word ‘occult’ as it just means hidden, secret. Jehovah knows what’s going on and explains some of it gradually, each of us can pray for added guidance as we study. But that does mean spending time to learn.
    For there to be convincing evidence that God wishes all to repent and be saved I would have expected much more genuine enlightenment and a lot less obscurantism in religion. I have insufficient experience to know whether you may be right here or wrong.
    Today the WTBTS is a corporation that has lost the flavour of Biblical Christianity. Its attitudes to human dignity are greatly contrasted by its own demands that worldy govenments ‘respect’ their right to govern their ‘people’ without interference. This is guaranteed under the First Amendment. It pays no modern JW to look too closely at the reality of how ‘justice’ is metted out to the organisation’s naive acolytes. They may indeed find that there is an occult aspect to it. Now it has an appointed papacy I suppose it may well be.
    In the meantime, Reader, you tell me what obvious characteristics the true religion should exhibit today. As you say, you are no longer a JW. What has replaced your search for truth. Or have you found it? I have not found another religion, I consider myself in a sort of wilderness. Scripturally I think there is no real authorisation for anything bigger than a Congregation. Perhaps we should have noted what was being said
    1.Religion is a snare and a racket;
    2.Including this one.
    Because if the first is true, the second must be.
    I am not telling you to believe any particular thing, the work I publish could be used by many people of different faiths as it is one subject of many Christian studies. I do my best to serve.
    Linked the title Reader at top to my sites index page.
    sorry about the layout copied all your posts to word and had all the replies in italics, on copy and paste back it all turned ordinary.


  115. Reader says:

    Dear Frank;
    Answering all your questions proved too big a file for this conversation, can send it if you wish or ask JJ for copy.
    Ah Mandela, what a paucety of such men in goverment t’is sad for Planet Earth.


  116. Reader says:

    The answer to All your questions proved too large for this area;
    Will be on my server for a few weeks.


  117. Reader says:

    Dear Frank;

    Got this off Google:
    “the analysis and judgement of the merits and faults of a literary or artistic work.
    “alternative methods of criticism supported by well-developed literary theories”
    synonyms: evaluation, assessment, examination, appreciation, appraisal, analysis, judgement”

    May help skepticism be more constructive?

    If the “Daniel Eleven Hyperlinked” I have suggested is correct much circa 1914 stuff collapses -don’t miss what I’m giving you.

    Puts the generation as un-started as yet.


  118. Frank says:

    Hi Reader. There is something somewhat suspicious about the idea that salvation at least partially could depend on whether one carries a calculator around in their pocket.

    Could you remind me, please, what the Biblical references are to the ‘mother-goddess’ and the ‘crone avatar’?

    “Numerology is any study of the purported divine, mystical or other special relationship between a number and some coinciding observed (or perceived) events. It has many systems and traditions and beliefs. Numerology and numerological divination…”


    I notice, too, that this article carries the phrase: “not to be confused with number theory”.

    I appreciate the research you did for me, Reader, even though not one of your answers actually carried an argument, rather an invitation to research it for myself. I was hoping you could give evidence that you understood what your yourself stood for.

    What I am reminded of is the evolutionary discovery that humans are good at ink-blot tests. This is called Patternicity; the ability to create a story from a predisposed set of ideas.

    Should it matter what occult source one gets their ideas?



  119. Reader says:

    Dear Frank;
    If the Scriptures give numbers, then that is that surely?

    Your worries would also point accusingly at Daniel as he calculated the captivity was over ‘from the books’, do you feel suspicious of Daniel too? Daniel 9 v 2

    These are the shape of the pagan gods, its just that the pagan gods fit the details of Genesis and satan said they would be gods did he not? Being able to recognise different guises as being the same one, because of apotheosis.

    I suppose if you insist on the widest deffinition it includes Jehovah’s use of numbers? So your suspicions escalate to include God himself; Ezekiel 43 v 10,11 how can a believer do what is requested here? Would you accuse God then over his use of numbers in Revelation?

    Revelation 13 v 18 I have done and published. Note the word “Let” is medieval English in use and is not passive, in fact more like LET in BASIC it is a command.

    But I get the impression your are more interested in the decor of the Titanic or is it:http://psychcentral.com/news/2.....36358.html



  120. Reader says:

    Dear Frank;

    Why not set aside semantics in your critique, this is a subject some have always had trouble with anyways. [remember: Babylon the Great book studies, I do!] Perhaps I may mislead when I said maths was children’s level as I have spent some years working with trig programming C.N.C. machines.

    A; Consider IS; the suggestion that the “Ships of Kittim” were fulfilled in the ‘battle of the Masts’ 655ce
    more likely or less likely than
    “Ships of the British Navy” in 1914 or is there even yet another candidate?

    B; Is the ‘League of Nations’ post WW1 which did little good and little harm or the ‘Third Council of Constantinople’ 680-681ce followed by Middle Ages persecutions, the ‘Abomination of Destruction’, or is there yet another candidate?

    The Internet is great for this, to be honest I can forgive WT for getting it wrong in the early sixties, when they would have to travel to libraries where some of the information was held, carry large books up and down stairs. Also remember the west in general has overlooked Byzantium.

    Enjoy, learning is a joy.



  121. Frank says:

    Reader, the intricacies of your answers exactly illustrate what I mean. This is why divination and prophecy can be the same; an attempt to look into the future either of an individual or a people, this time using numbers. Why is the Bible coded in this way?

    The Bible is seen in consensus as the divine plan to reconcile man back to God. Do you at least agree that the Bible uses numerology as a principle means to foretell future events? The Watchtower had no choice (in its own mind) to recalculate as nothing, according to its own expectations, occurred in 1878 AD. This meant the stripping of the Jewish prophetic year (average between the greater and lesser luminaries) and assigning ONLY a solar year (Roman at the time). Well, next year it will be the FIRST centenary of this prediction. Do we have confidence that this is an adequate explanation? Answer: Wait for constant updates as time moves inexorably forward!

    In your comment-but-one above, you attempt to get me to think I am contradicting God’s time-table and the Bible’s use of numerology. If it turns out that Daniel is a forgery (someone unrelated writing under a pseudonym or imitating a better well-known writer) then Revelation will be like the Book of Mormon, which has at least 10% of the King James quoted verbatim, complete with translation errors. I’m not saying this is the case, but it does make a powerful argument for patternicity and our desire as humans to make sense of the non-nonsensical.



  122. Reader says:

    Dear Frank;

    In numerology the numbers have some sort of meaning or power above simple digital values.

    The number use in Scripture is different as these are basically digital values of characters or events.
    Yes there is an element that Biblical number symbols are studied and therefore could be called an ..ology =number study. But these are values.

    666 has no power in itself it is an answer to a sum, with a request to show the working out. This is a riddle propounded by Jehovah for his belivers to gain insight, it is not a number [to my knowledge] previously used in the occult, though it is now by some modern players.

    My reason for giving the comments on Daniel king north/south was to show that it does not point to 1914.
    That Daniel can be found true as the word of God.

    OK you cannot conect with this.



  123. Frank says:

    Hi Reader. Apparently not only I can ‘connect’ with your way of thinking:

    “What is biblical numerology? Does God assign meaning to certain numbers He put in the Bible? If so, is it biblical?

    “Numerology Definition

    “Numerology is what Bible scholars believe is the placing of meaning on numbers in the Scriptures. There is said to be numerical values in the numbers in the Pentateuch or what is known as the Torah, the first five books of the Bible. Numerology is by no means restricted to the Old Testament but is said to be found throughout the Bible – from Genesis to Exodus. Numerology attempts to explain the meaning of these numbers to see what God may be telling us by using them and the interpretation of them relating to the Scriptures or verses where they found. Examples are the numbers three, six, seven, and ten, but there are more. Numbers are thought to be symbolic of the sovereignty of God and so let‘s take a look at certain numbers and their meanings.”

    “…The number six is also seen as a number of imperfection since man was created on it, six days is an imperfect week, and the perfect evil can be seen in the number of man, 666 (Revelation 13:18), a sort of unholy trinity. There were six cities of refuge given to the Levites for those who killed or caused great harm accidentally to others; these were places for them to take refuge (Numbers 35:6). God established these cities so that family members would not retaliate against them for the harm they inflicted upon them by accident or not intentionally.”


    Have you got those Scriptural references to the Crone Avatar yet, Reader? I would be most interested in this particular way of thinking.



  124. Frank says:

    div·i·na·tion noun \ˌdi-və-ˈnā-shən\
    : the practice of using signs (such as an arrangement of tea leaves or cards) or special powers to predict the future

    Full Definition of DIVINATION

    : the art or practice that seeks to foresee or foretell future events or discover hidden knowledge usually by the interpretation of omens or by the aid of supernatural powers
    : unusual insight : intuitive perception


  125. Reader says:

    Dear Frank;
    & 1914?


  126. Frank says:

    Dear Reader. 7 is a symbolic number. I rest my case.



  127. Frank says:

    Daniel 12:4 (Bible in Basic English)

    “4 But as for you, O Daniel, let the words be kept secret and the book rolled up and kept shut till the time of the end: numbers will be going out of the way and troubles will be increased.”



  128. Reader says:

    Dear Frank;
    The Scripture you quote Daniel 12 v 4 does point to the significance of when understandings of Daniel appear.
    You rest your case.


  129. Frank says:

    The point is, Reader, that whether one calls a holy book sacred, secret, occult, or prophetic, in the end it’s just where one chooses to put their faith. If it is catagorised ‘holy,’ no questions are asked and its literal (or symbolic) interpretation becomes part of the thinking of those of whichever church one chooses to tread the floorboards. 1914 is just another interpretation we must consign to bin of wishful thinking.

    Great discussion, thanks Reader.



  130. Reader says:

    Dear Frank;
    That is a highly un-scientific opinion.
    A un-discrimated starting point
    Were you ever a JW?


  131. Frank says:

    Reader. What scientific evidence have YOU presented? The scientific consensus is that the use of symbolic numbers to predict the future is a form of divination.

    I am still a JW and can reconcile such words with whatever faith I still possess. I just don’t believe in stuff because others do. I want my faith to be based on a stable foundation. How about you?



  132. Reader says:

    Dear Frank;

    ……….”That is a highly un-scientific opinion.
    A un-discrimated starting point”


    In scientific method you would discriminate, separate the different factors for analysis, collect data together in orderly manner.
    Ensure accurate understanding of cause and effect.

    You lump the lot together!

    …………..”Reader. What scientific evidence have YOU presented?”

    In Biblical matters scientific evidence is inappropriate in many cases.
    Attention to the Scriptures will often supply the understanding.
    Science is a good method but it must have or gather data and present a repeatable proof.
    With the Bible we don’t have all the data, and some may be unknowable.

    ……………”I am still a JW and can reconcile such words with whatever faith I still possess. I just don’t believe in stuff because others do. I want my faith to be based on a stable foundation.”

    In advocating Atheism whilst claiming to be a Jehovah’s Witness are you not short changing Jehovah to a considerable extent? Dangerous spiritual ground to be on. Or harming some other person with doubts coming here in hope of some help?

    ………”How about you?”

    I consider “Let God be found true, though every man a liar”
    As the principle I am obliged to act on.
    I still consider my baptism as binding me, so the website, but I took the older non WT serving one.

    Frank; if you are feeling atheism is the way, seek the advice of your Elders or a friend.
    Because if not the unforgivable sin is not that far away.

    Perhaps instead of looking at the Symbolic work on my site, the “Zero verse zero” item would be of more use; http://yahweh-immanuel.info/zerovzero.html

    You see I have Atheist acquaintances.

    All the best in your search


  133. Reader says:

    Addendum to Frank;

    Q: I suspect you are in the younger half of life OR you have come into the Truth on the quicker path, have you had time to make the Truth your own? Don’t answer in a public forum, just for yourself alone.
    Sometimes those born inside are pushed along and don’t make belief their own.

    The “Zero verse Zero” does not argue via “wonder” and often requires a calculator.

    ps maters of Religion are not Science, the thinking is called Philosophy.


  134. Frank says:

    Reader: “In Biblical matters scientific evidence is inappropriate in many cases. Attention to the Scriptures will often supply the understanding. Science is a good method but it must have or gather data and present a repeatable proof. With the Bible we don’t have all the data, and some may be unknowable.”

    Comment: Reader, all you are doing is agreeing with me. Even the Bible says that there must be “two witnesses to establish a matter”! You have one (and you can’t use other Bible writers because of their lack of objectivity), where’s your second witness? Try nature, that not only disconfirms many Biblical claims, but contradicts them!

    This ‘argument’ is not an argument, just a tautology.

    Reader: “In advocating Atheism whilst claiming to be a Jehovah’s Witness are you not short changing Jehovah to a considerable extent? Dangerous spiritual ground to be on. Or harming some other person with doubts coming here in hope of some help?”

    Comment: You’ve lost me, Reader, how am I ‘advocating atheism’? I have not claimed there is no God, merely questioning a holy book’s claim to being accurate in its description about God. Try human cruelty, bullying, and then claiming ‘perfect love’?

    Reader: “Frank; if you are feeling atheism is the way, seek the advice of your Elders or a friend. Because if not the unforgivable sin is not that far away.”

    comment: Disgraceful action and attitude on the part of our ‘loving shepherds’ are why I left. Why would I seek the help who have the attention span of a guppy and zero love? I’m not a masochist.



  135. Frank says:

    Reader, you are wrong on both accounts in your addendum. Have you found that scripture(s) where the ‘crone avatar’ is mentioned yet?

    You seem strangely silent on this. I don’t remember seeing it. You’ll have to remind me.



  136. Reader says:

    let me re assert the 1914 thread;
    On my site there are two diagrams which might help clear some of the 1914 problems, without criticising Scripture just clearer view of it:
    Fig: 5 Olivet Prophecy, A Spatial Analysis

    And Fig: 7 The Discernment of Matthew 24 v 15
    cursor over Reader above


  137. Frank says:

    Reader, simply introducing more, particularly fictitious, material to a complex concept simply makes it even more complex!

    The fact is that Biblically-speaking, 360-day years are a universal ‘God-measure.’ The Bible itself states that all things are established “at the mouth of two witnesses.” By their very nature this excludes internal ‘verification’ (because no Biblical writer can be genuinely objective about their claims) and the eccentricity of strange occult “facts and figures” introduced AFTER the fact in a vain attempt to fit a round peg into a square hole!

    The only convincing argument must come from archaeological, paleontological, and other established scientific disciplines. Claiming faith as ‘the other witness’ creates only a tautology (circular argument) and contains no information.

    As you have not succeeded in presenting a true knock-down argument so far, Reader, do you have anything else, preferably something verifiable and non-falsifiable?



    • Reader says:

      Dear Frank;
      Quote: “Reader, simply introducing more, particularly fictitious (a), material to a complex concept simply makes it even more complex!

      The fact is that Biblically-speaking, 360-day years are a universal ‘God-measure.’ (b) The Bible itself states that all things are established “at the mouth of two witnesses.” (c) By their very nature this excludes internal ‘verification’ (because no Biblical writer can be genuinely objective about their claims)(d) and the eccentricity of strange occult “facts and figures” introduced AFTER the fact in a vain attempt to fit a round peg into a square hole! (e)

      The only convincing argument must come from archaeological, paleontological, and other established scientific disciplines. Claiming faith as ‘the other witness’ creates only a tautology (circular argument) and contains no information. (f)

      As you have not succeeded in presenting a true knock-down argument (g) so far, Reader, do you have anything else, preferably something verifiable and non-falsifiable?” End Quote

      A I have said I believe, as I believe I take the Bible as Truth, its that simple. 4e.g.“The Ships of Kittim” is a historical fact, knowing this alters the understanding of a verse in Daniel, its then a simple schoolboy paper-chase. “If History is false then all other knowledge must be” forgot who said it. If I lie, I am only repeating it.
      B In your rants you have failed to notice, my site presentations do not demand the visitor to use either or both.
      C Often a good principle but was for trials resulting in a death, not every trial.
      D Absolute sweeping nonsense from a haughty attitude to God’s written word.
      E You’re quoting other peoples doubts as if facts.
      F I doubt Jehovah would consider his servants should study ancient garbage dumps and fossilised corpses’ to understand puzzles set by him in Biblical logic, you’re mixing chalk and cheese here. Isn’t that divination? Grand Masters set puzzles in context of the rules.

      It really is no wonder my answers make no sense to you.
      I have answered more of your questions, than you have of mine.
      You’ve called me a liar frank, I’ll terminate this bye.


  138. Reader says:

    Dear Frank;
    “Why would I seek the help who have the attention span of a guppy and zero love?” [134]

    Telling eh? These were/are/have been your friends
    ps a reply to 135 has gone missing in the digital ether.


  139. Frank says:

    Reader. If reply is missing in ether, then please write out again. I’m await with bated breath.

    Reader, your lettering system leaves a lot to be desired. I don’t know which letter goes where in your above reply, but here goes:

    A: Your personal belief in the validity of something makes no difference to those who don’t think like you.

    B: Thank you, Reader, I agree with you. Please define ‘rants.’

    C: Simply taking a single witness’s ‘truth statement’ means that that ‘truth’ is subjective and has no power in establishing anything. The Bible can only ever be ‘one witness’ to the claimed ‘historical account.’ Miracle claims are not evidence, let alone proof of anything.

    “Ships of Kittim”: Do you think the average enquirer into Bibile-truth would want you start here to prove your case, Reader?

    C: No modern court would accept the testimony of a subjective witness alone. There is the problem of motivation, purpose, and goal. Courts demand a high standard of verification. Every Bible writer was a Hebrew/Jew/Christian. Only archaeology, palaeontology, and science/astronomy can genuinely verify the Bible’s claims.

    E: It is odd that you should see your own occult meanderings as having anything to do with the Holy Bible.

    F: Obviously you have no respect for time-honed scientific disciplines many of which have given us medicine, flown us to the moon, and given us computers. Perhaps you feel the ancient writings of philosophers tops this. I might agree if there could be agreement between human science (the study of reality) and the claims of a holy book (one of many).

    Sadly there has been nothing you’ve said that would convince a sceptic or an atheist.

    I had no desire to offend you, but your need to exit is very telling. Thanks for the conversation.



  140. JimmyG says:

    It’s telling that only ‘reader’ and ‘frank’ are having this conversation. I’m sorry reader, but you have to add me to the list of those who find what you say difficult to understand. The absence of anyone else joining the conversation may be indicative that I’m not alone in this.


  141. Reader says:

    Dear JimmyG;

    I never said it was easy meat.
    Some of the Scriptures used also suggest this challenge, WT bookstudies on this subject have been struggles for many. [its taken about 40 yrs]

    But I will not argue against doubt or persistent atheism or those who try to assert my work a deception.
    I do not have to, my work is on the www for anyone, the stats grow albeit slowly. So I follow Christ’s directive after enough said.

    Generally WT gets a lot of criticism herein, but ’tis so easy if you choose not to do the work yourself. Granted some are unable.

    If you leave WT ok, but you must replace all the things which WT previously did for you, lets face it just about all your thinking & all theology.
    Proverbs 22 v 13.


  142. Frank says:

    Reader, you exhibit the standard solipsism that has come to characterise modern self-satisfied religious dogmatism. This is where we get the word ‘dogma’ from:

    Dogma: : a belief or set of beliefs that is accepted by the members of a group without being questioned or doubted.
    (Miriam-Webster Dictionary)

    You also expose a subtle arrogance by suggesting that ‘some are unable’ to grasp the complexities you feel your mind can. This raises the same important question:

    As Christopher Hitchens put: Are there those who are mentally and emotionally wired so they CANNOT accept the abstracts of religious belief?

    If this is so, there is no level playing field for salvation and would suggest predestination. Do you personally feel that some will be destroyed because they are not ‘wired’ for salvation? Obviously you feel you are on ‘the road to life’

    Not insubstantially, I would like also to point out that the ‘blessing and the malediction’ of the Old Testament is not actually a choice. The true choice must involve at least two VIABLE and attractive possibilities. No one in their right mind wants to die.

    Oh, and I have never suggested you are trying to deceive anyone…just yourself.



  143. JimmyG says:

    The main difficulty for me reader is your writing style, not the content. Your sentences seem ‘clipped’, with words missing, as if writing in a hurry.It may be just me.

    You say; “if you choose not to do the work yourself. Granted some are unable.” If you are right, I guess you put me into this category and as Frank says: “some will be destroyed because they are not ‘wired’ for salvation” or as you say, some are unable to do the hard graft for themselves.

    I may as well ‘eat, drink and be merry (appropriate for this time of year), for tomorrow I may die’.


  144. Reader says:

    Dear JimmyG;
    I did not write up this site because of any passion for writing, and I do not even see the complete work as yet. I found public speaking easier than writing, because of the feed back from peoples faces helps. I do not know who reads the website, and feel it improper to use my skills to find out.

    I know Trinitarians will be offended by it, so proofs had to be Bible based all the way.
    It was written whilst in production -it still is. Maybe if I finish before I die I could look at the complete thing and write it up better -or somebody else might. As for now I publish at each progresion, my readers are at the front edge. [and sorry also suffer my style or lack of such]

    I had a history interest esp ancient sites, visited many [UK] , I did not plan until the web became available to publish anything.

    Hence you may see a sort of journal style strapped onto Scriptural sequence.

    I have spent several years in engineering programming with letter codes and geometric values and this will not have helped my style. So I am not offended if my style is difficult, besides GB English is less wordy than US English.

    My apologies on my English, and for being a believer in ALL Scripture.

    I did want to make Genesis more understandable, the two Creation accounts which at first don’t quite mix, etc.. There are forays into other topics but mainly its 666 and Babylon t G.

    I will cease my visits.

    All the Best


  145. JimmyG says:

    “GB English is less wordy than US English”. This is not the issue for me. I am UK born, but not domiciled there.

    My wish is not to chase you away. All the best to you too.


  146. Frank says:

    Reader, you have no need to apologise for being a ‘all-Bible-believer.’ The word ‘believe’ comes from the Latin word ‘credo’ meaning ‘I accept.’If this is what floats your boat then you have a democratic right to express yourself as you wish.

    Since I stopped attending meetings I have discovered so much, not just about my adopted religion (I was born into the WT) that has caused me pause for thought, but also I find myself asking whether I actually do want to live under a tribal deity; one who makes apparently paradoxical claims about himself when matched against Bible ‘history.’

    Your site is certainly entertaining, but can you tell me if you know how many people visit of their own volition, please. This might indicate whether a new tack for you might be in order. I just don’t understand how it is that you have been given a ‘key to the kingdom’ that has been denied me, or arguably others here.

    It’s your choice to stay or go, but you never know, you may, one day, even convince an old dissident like me.



  147. Rupunzelsawake says:

    Having trouble posting. Just wanted to see if this would post!


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