Am I a Jonadab?(This article was written by brother Ed and posted here by Greybeard)

The organization of Jehovah’s Witness is truly made up of of many God fearing people. They have made a stance which often puts them at odds with “the world”. Most people do not understand their fervent desire to please God. Many of them try to live moral and upright lives, dedicated to preaching, study and worship. Why my parents are still Jehovah’s Witnesses after 50 years of service, and they truly believe in the organisations direction, making significant allowances for the issues many here have raised. So here is my plea to all Jehovah’s Witnesses.


Brothers and Sisters, your genuine love of God and your steadfast desire to please Him has been sabotaged. From the very outset, Satan, who disguises himself as an angel of light (2 Corinthians 11:14), entered alongside you. He worked hard to ensure that the “truth” would be mixed with false doctrines of men, just as the Apostle Peter warned in 2 Peter 2:1-2. Satan knew that it was time for yet another division of the Body of Christ to spring forth; this time he did not focus on the traditional trap of denying God’s Supreme Oneness through the false doctrine of the trinity, rather he decided to snare people by denying the Master, Jesus Christ, who redeems us and is a savior to all mankind.

“What rubbish,” you may say. “I’m a Jehovah’s Witness and I don’t deny Jesus Christ.” True, you don’t deny he exists, that he is the Son of God, that he died for our sins, and that he sat down at the right hand of God. But you deny him by refusing to obey his commands.

To deny the Master means to “deny or refuse” (see Strong’s Concordance #720 “arnoumenoi”). The fact is you refuse to obey the Master who has bought you. As slaves, your Master has specific conditions for your redemption, salvation and ultimately your everlasting life. False doctrine, from false teachers, has deliberately denied you of precisely that which you are seeking; salvation and everlasting life.

Let me highlight the only teaching that Christ set out for those seeking everlasting life. In John 6:27-40, 44-58 Jesus clearly provides the doctrine in which we, who are believers, must accept if we are to abide in him and him abide in us and for us to be granted everlasting life:

“27 Work, not for the food that perishes, but for the food that remains for life everlasting, which the Son of man will give YOU; for upon this one the Father, even God, has put his seal [of approval].”

28 Therefore they said to him: “What shall we do to work the works of God?” 29 In answer Jesus said to them: “This is the work of God, that YOU exercise faith in him whom that One sent forth.” 30 Therefore they said to him: “What, then, are you performing as a sign, in order for us to see [it] and believe you? What work are you doing? 31 Our forefathers ate the manna in the wilderness, just as it is written, ‘He gave them bread from heaven to eat.’” 32 Hence Jesus said to them: “Most truly I say to YOU, Moses did not give YOU the bread from heaven, but my Father does give YOU the true bread from heaven. 33 For the bread of God is the one who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.” 34 Therefore they said to him: “Lord, always give us this bread.”

35 Jesus said to them: “I am the bread of life. He that comes to me will not get hungry at all, and he that exercises faith in me will never get thirsty at all. 36 But I have said to YOU, YOU have even seen me and yet do not believe. 37 Everything the Father gives me will come to me, and the one that comes to me I will by no means drive away; 38 because I have come down from heaven to do, not my will, but the will of him that sent me. 39 This is the will of him that sent me, that I should lose nothing out of all that he has given me but that I should resurrect it at the last day. 40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone that beholds the Son and exercises faith in him should have everlasting life, and I will resurrect him at the last day.”

44 No man can come to me unless the Father, who sent me, draws him; and I will resurrect him in the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by Jehovah.’ Everyone that has heard from the Father and has learned comes to me. 46 Not that any man has seen the Father, except he who is from God; this one has seen the Father. 47 Most truly I say to YOU, He that believes has everlasting life.

48 “I am the bread of life. 49 YOUR forefathers ate the manna in the wilderness and yet died. 50 This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that anyone may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven; if anyone eats of this bread he will live forever; and, for a fact, the bread that I shall give is my flesh in behalf of the life of the world.”

52 Therefore the Jews began contending with one another, saying: “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” 53 Accordingly Jesus said to them: “Most truly I say to YOU, Unless YOU eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, YOU have no life in yourselves. 54 He that feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has everlasting life, and I shall resurrect him at the last day; 55 for my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. 56 He that feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood remains in union with me, and I in union with him. 57 Just as the living Father sent me forth and I live because of the Father, he also that feeds on me, even that one will live because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. It is not as when YOUR forefathers ate and yet died. He that feeds on this bread will live forever.” NWT

Notice how Jesus uses the words “anyone” in verses 51. This is not a conditional statement that precludes certain people; rather it is an open invitation to anyone who believes. Jesus further reinforced this doctrine by instructing his disciples at the Last Supper to “do this in remembrance of me” (Luke 22:19). Of course there are many things we Christians must do to maintain our unity in Christ, but going into this now is not the purpose of this plea.

May I ask, what doctrine are you following when each of you courteously refuses the cup and bread of Christ’s Body as they are passed along? What scriptures have you based this doctrine on? What scripture tells you that only a special group (class) of individuals are permitted to obey Jesus’ command? There are none. However, let me explain to you where this false doctrine originated. In your very own publication ”Jehovah’s Witnesses – Proclaimers of God’s Kingdom”, page 83 reads:

“In 1932 it was explained that Jehonadab (Jonadab), King Jehu’s associate, prefigured a class of persons who would enjoy everlasting life on earth. (2 Kings 10:15-28) The Jonadabs, as they came to be known, counted it a privilege to be associated with Jehovah’s anointed servants and to have some share with them in advertising the Kingdom. But at that time, there was no special effort to gather these individuals with an earthly hope.

However, real encouragement was given to the Jonadabs in the Watchtower of August 15, 1934. The article “His Kindness” stated: “Should a Jonadab consecrate himself to the Lord and be baptized? Answer: Most assuredly it is proper for a Jonadab to consecrate himself to do the will of God. No one will ever get life without doing that. Water immersion is merely a symbol of having made a consecration [or, as we would now say, dedication] to do God’s will, and that would not be out of order.” The Jonadabs were thrilled!”

Brothers and sisters, what you have read above is a different Gospel to the one preached by our brothers and sisters of the first century, and our brother Paul condemns those that preach a different Gospel (Galatians 1:6-9). Who gave the Jehovah’s Witnesses this new Gospel? This Gospel is repulsive to God and Christ, for God gave His only Son as a sacrifice for all of mankinds sins, so that all who believe in him would be saved (Romans 5:8-11; John 3:16). Ephesians 4:5 says “one Lord, one faith, one baptism”. And to suggest that “water immersion is merely a symbol of… dedication…to do God’s will” is undermining the power of Christ’s death and resurrection. 1 Peter 3:18-21 is clear on the symbolism of baptism.

The false doctrine that denies you of the Master comes directly from the ‘wisdom of men’ and is based on the numerous false prophecies of Charles Taze Russell and Co. Investigate for yourself the origination of the false doctrine of the two classes of ”Sheep”, and the teachings from the “Governing body” that the “other sheep” should not partake of the “emblems”. However, I’m not going to spend time justifying the “truth” of Christ’s own words by disputing lies; it is you who must “test all things”.

Brothers and sisters, the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York, Inc. is another division of the Body of Christ. It was established by men, named by men, and claimed to be God’s organisation on earth, by men. The reality is it is a false religion that has trapped almost 7 million individuals into believing many false doctrines, some of them that directly deny you the power of Christ’s death, resurrection and promised everlasting life.

I cannot plead with you enough, my brothers and sisters, to please, please examine the history of false prophecies and Satanic lies that have snared so many of you. I know it is extremely hard, when you are so deeply devoted, to properly “test all things” (1 Thessalonians 5:21). My deep concern for you is based on love. I gain nothing from asking you to wake up before it is too late.

May you accept the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ which he offers on behalf of our Father.

Your brother in Christ,

Brother Ed

(This article was written by brother Ed and posted here by Greybeard)


Rating 4.75 out of 5



  1. confused says:

    Ed, Thank you brother for that article. I struggle with feeling like I should go back, this helped me.
    I’m facing a bit of a crisis, is the trinity scriptural or not? I can see BOTH sides to the argument. It makes me want to give up seeking, there are too many good arguments and I wonder if I will ever know Jehovah. Does he want to know me? I’m doubting as times goes by and its agonizing, the wt has left me with so many doubts now that I did not expect.
    Anyways, your article was very motivating.


    • greybeard says:

      Dear Confused,

      I can totally relate to how you feel because I have had these feelings before myself. Very confused at times for sure. I believe it is important to not give up on searching for truth. The JW’s have tried to hide much of their past but with the internet this is impossible. I don’t worry about things like the trinity as much anymore. I do not believe God will judge me based on what bible I read or what doctrine I have come to believe. What am I doing with my time? Do I help others in need? Am I charitable or am I selfish? Please consider how Christ will judge us at Matthew 25:34-46.

      JW’s feel that doctrine and everyone agreeing 100% with the GB is the key to salvation. They teach Gods name is Jehovah but the fact remains that nobody really even knows how the name of God is pronounced. I personally would rather error on the side of believing that Jesus is God than error on the side that he is not our saviour and I am a “Jonadab” in association with a “faithful slave” who will save me. Jesus has all authority in heaven and Earth according to Matthew 28:18. That makes him almost equal to God doesn’t it? At least in authority! So who is closer to the truth?

      When Christ says “I never knew you” I believe it will be to those who are selfish and only care about themselves doing nothing to help strangers or their fellow man. There are plenty of worth while charitable works we can be involved with besides passing out Watchtowers that are laughable by anyones standards. The Watchtower has been wrong over and over and yet has no humility for its wrong statements. They just shrug them off seeking to find those who do not know about them. Many in this world do know about them and they do not have a good report on the outside. 1 Timothy 3:7

      Keep knocking and keep searching for truth. Luke 11:9

      Your brother in Christ,


      • Mark M says:

        Hi Greybeard and sister Confused,

        Greybeard, I think your comment here is very well stated. While I personally reject the trinity doctrine, as far as I’m concerned the organization has robbed Jesus of His actual role and His Deity. Who am I to say that the Father could not give His Son equality if that is what He chooses to do? Ultimately, if this is what the Father did, this still means that the “equal” status came from the Father or was given to Jesus by the Father which certainly shows a hierarchy or “pecking order” if you will. According to John 1:3, John 5:22-23, Philippians 2:6 and Hebrews 1:6 just to name a few verses, it appears to me that Jesus is much more than the Watchtower organization allows the rank and file to believe. I believe that this is where we who are or were in the organization have trouble. It was very hard for me to free myself from the mind control of thinking it was wrong for me to think outside of the JW box. Perhaps I’m wrong, but in my limited understanding I believe that we can pray to, and even worship Jesus while not neglecting the Father, and this is acceptable to the Father.

        Sister Confused, whatever you do, my plea to you is that you keep praying, studying and drawing close to God and His Son. Keep in mind that your relationship with them is personal, it does not come from or through an organization despite what we have been taught by the JW‘s. In the past I too agonized over the trinity doctrine but after much study I have clearly resolved in my mind that this is a false doctrine. Even so, I do not completely agree with the JW view of Jesus as I mentioned above. Perhaps sometime with the permission of JJ and the others who write on this site I could post my understanding of the Father, Son and holy spirit. I don’t think it would be controversial at all. It may help many JW’s deal with this struggle. Actually, I have presented it to both Trinitarians and non-Trinitarians and so far I have had nothing but a positive response from both groups.

        Anyway, I hope you hang in there sister!

        Your brother,
        Mark M.


  2. Truth Seeker says:

    Thank you so much for sharing this…I enjoyed it alot and i hope to one day pass it to my family, i was born a witness and all my family aunts, uncles, cousins, parents and siblings are Still witness. The only thing if you may let me correct you on something. Charles Taze Russell and Co. where Bible Students NOT a Jehovah Witness. After C.T. Russell Died in 1916, Judge J F Rutherford Took Over and named it Jehovah’s Witnesses in the 1930’s. So Even Though Russell did in Fact have some wrong expectations. He Never changed the calling of the christian hope to a earthly one. It was only when Rutherford took over and did things HIS way.


  3. Disappointed says:

    I read bro Ed’s post earlier and found myself nodding at everything he wrote. The last few memorials I have sat and watched the plate being passed round trying to get into the ‘mood’ and each time feeling that ‘rejection’ wondering why we don’t partake. It feels so empty and meaningless. Christ died for ALL of us! Yes??? Not just for a chosen few. He died for ME, so why can’t I partake? Something is badly missing in my worship and I feel angry that the WT is coming between me and my Lord. Jesus is my salvation.. not them!How dare they take his place!!


    • greybeard says:

      You are on the right track Disappointed. I had those same feelings and now I do partake. I feel 1000% better about this. Before it always felt wrong. You can’t go wrong obeying Jesus commands. You can go wrong obeying commands of men. Colossians 2:22 (HCSB)


  4. The Synchronicity says:

    I am reminded of the fact that Jesus Christ himself told his apostles that there was information he possessed, but could not pass it on to them, because they could not bear it.

    Perfect knowledge is not attainable by us, at least in this world. And for that reason, it must not be our focus, or else we are doomed to fail as soon as we begun.

    I suspect that the reason the ‘operation of error’ has been allowed to propogate, is so that the Lord can see who is keeping his commandment, DESPITE the errors of others.

    We were commanded to love. It was an absolutely direct order. There were no caveats…no stipulations. We were not given the option to withhold based on the idea that someone else may have an error in their thinking…a ‘false’ belief, if you will.

    If we are to be fair, we must always be open to new understanding and knowledge. This openness hinges on the admission that we are sinful, and our understandings may be flawed. It is meekness and humility to admit that we may be wrong. Are we to riddle our neighbors’ beliefs with holes, and yet be daft enough to think our positions on matters is unassailable? (Proverbs 1:11)

    Perfect knowledge was never the commandmant of Christ. Love was.


  5. confused says:

    I found your comment so comforting. Funny how as a witness, its black or white thinking. You gave me hope there. Most web sites out there stress you must believe that or else kind of tone. I may never know for sure on this side. Thank you for saying its okay.

    Your sister


  6. humbleman says:

    Hi confused please continue searching and keeping your faith in the only true God. notice this scripture

    Matthew 28
    18And Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying: “All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth.

    the Almighty God does not have to be given anything he owns all things and yet we see in this scripture Jesus was given all authority in heaven and on earth imply before he was given it he didn’t have this authority.
    here is a link to a ex trinitarian. who has come to the realisation that Jesus is the son of God not God the son. enjoy
    bro humbleman


  7. Bro. Ed says:

    Peace be with you all.

    Confused, many have already shared their perspectives with you regarding the Trinity, but here is another perspective for you to pray on, one that made me say, “AHH HA!! I get it!”, and it’s from someone who lived almost 2000 years ago (he was struggling with the same issue too). Read on and please don’t skip over parts of it as it is quite meaty…

    “Since they (believers in the Trinity) will have the Two to be but One, so that the Father shall be deemed to be the same as the Son, it is only right that the whole question respecting the Son should be examined, as to whether He exists, and who He is and the mode of His existence. Thus shall the truth itself secure its own sanction from the Scriptures, and the interpretations which guard them.

    There are some who allege that even Genesis opens thus in Hebrew: “In the beginning God made for Himself a Son.” As there is no ground for this, I am led to other arguments derived from God’s own dispensation, in which He existed before the creation of the world, up to the generation of the Son. For before all things God was alone—being in Himself and for Himself universe, and space, and all things. Moreover, He was alone, because there was nothing external to Him but Himself.

    Yet even then He was not alone; for He had with Him that which He possessed in Himself, that is to say, His own Reason. For God is rational, and Reason was first in Him; and so all things were from Himself.

    This Reason is His own Thought (or consciousness) which the Greeks call logos, by which term we also designate Word or Discourse and therefore it is now usual with our people, owing to the mere simple interpretation of the term, to say that the Word was in the beginning with God; although it would be more suitable to regard Reason as the more ancient; because God had not Word from the beginning, but He had Reason even before the beginning; because Word also itself consists of Reason, which it thus proves to have been the prior existence as being its own substance. Not that this distinction is of any practical moment. For although God had not yet sent out His Word, He still had Him within Himself, both in company with and included within His very Reason, as He silently planned and arranged within Himself everything which He was afterwards about to utter through His Word.

    Now, whilst He was thus planning and arranging with His own Reason, He was actually causing that to become Word which He was dealing with in the way of Word or Discourse. And that you may the more readily understand this, consider first of all, from your own self, who are made “in the image and likeness of God,” for what purpose it is that you also possess reason in yourself, who are a rational creature, as being not only made by a rational Artificer, but actually animated out of His substance.

    Observe, then, that when you are silently conversing with yourself, this very process is carried on within you by your reason, which meets you with a word at every movement of your thought, at every impulse of your conception. Whatever you think, there is a word; whatever you conceive, there is reason. You must needs speak it in your mind; and while you are speaking, you admit speech as an interlocutor with you, involved in which there is this very reason, whereby, while in thought you are holding converse with your word, you are (by reciprocal action) producing thought by means of that converse with your word.

    Thus, in a certain sense, the word is a second person within you, through which in thinking you utter speech, and through which also, (by reciprocity of process, ) in uttering speech you generate thought. The word is itself a different thing from yourself. Now how much more fully is all this transacted in God, whose image and likeness even you are regarded as being, inasmuch as He has reason within Himself even while He is silent, and involved in that Reason His Word! I may therefore without rashness first lay this down (as a fixed principle) that even then before the creation of the universe God was not alone, since He had within Himself both Reason, and, inherent in Reason, His Word, which He made second to Himself by agitating it within Himself.” Anti-Marcion, Against Praxeas by Tertullian, Chapter 5

    Interesting perspective from Tertullian, one of the early teachers of Christianity, just 200 years after the death of Christ. It was his attempt to clarify the obviously heavily debated doctrine that surrounded the nature and substance of Christ in relation to the Father. This case is documented in his writings, Against Praxeas, and in them the second century theologian directly opposed the teaching that had surfaced, that the Father was Christ incarnate. It sounds like we’re back to the old argument for and against this Marcion false teaching? Just to highlight something you may have not picked up on. At no stage was the early century debate about three persons in one God, rather it was about two persons in one God. The three persons in one God slipped in much later. This further adds weight to the anti-trinitarian position we as Christians must take. Who else but early followers of this Marcion teaching would have the motivation to reinforce their position Nonetheless Tertullian further wrote:

    “In various ways has the devil rivalled and resisted the truth. Sometimes his aim has been to destroy the truth by defending it. He maintains that there is one only Lord, the Almighty Creator of the world, in order that out of this doctrine of the unity he may fabricate a heresy. He says that the Father Himself came down into the Virgin, was Himself born of her, Himself suffered, indeed was Himself Jesus Christ.” Against Praxeas, Chapter 1:1

    What rings true in Turtullian’s own words, is that there is no conflict in reasoning that the Word was God and at the same time the Word was with God:

    1 In the beginning the Word already existed; the Word was with God, and the Word was God.2 From the very beginning the Word was with God.3 Through him God made all things; not one thing in all creation was made without him.4 The Word was the source of life,[a] and this life brought light to people.5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has never put it out.” (John 1:1-5 Good News Translation).

    If you go by the sound logic, you don’t even need to inject, as the NWT does, “and the word was a god.” if you understand that God, in bringing forth his Word, he gave birth to a Son who is in all ways the exact likeness of God, because he came DIRECTLY FROM of God. Unlike all other creation thereafter, Jesus is the only one that actually came out from God, created from God’s own thoughts and then His Word. Everything thereafter was made through his firstborn Son as Colossians 1:15-20 confesses. Isn’t that beautiful…it made me tearful when I understood this and reflected on the real sacrifice God made and the love he has for all mankind, even though we are sinful and don’t deserve it. It was the truest of sacrifices!

    One last word of encouragement Confused; you are not alone, you have many brothers and sisters who will lift you up and comfort you. And most of all our Father, together with our Lord and Savior Christ Jesus, will guide you, lift you up and comfort you.

    Your brother in Christ.


  8. I was going to respond to John S., but before I could respond, his comment was no longer on the screen to re-read for me to respond. All I remember was he said a lot of words, but talked around in circles, not really getting to any real point. I read another sister’s comment to him that she said he was so loving, but I did not get that from his comments, more that he was defending the “organization” at all costs no matter if they are right or wrong. It is kind of like nationalism that we all find distasteful “MY Country, Right or Wrong”.

    I appreciate the comments of some here on this site, and writers here that are honest enough and brave enough to see and express that there is REALLY something wrong going on in the “organization”. Are we REALLY supposed to follow MEN blindly, no matter what self-proclaimed TITLES they give themselves?

    I would love to hear from my brothers and sisters, and hear their open and honest expressions with no judgment against them.

    As corny and simplistic as it may sound to some, CHRIST is my ONLY savior, and the ONLY one I follow.

    The “organization” teaches us from an early age to be judgmental, by teaching us that Adam and Eve will NOT have a resurrection, even though there is NO Scripture to say or even indicate such. In fact, there is much evidence in the Bible that MAYBE they WILL have a resurrection, but WHO am I to judge? Is not Christ the judge? WHY do we teach what is beyond what is written in the Bible?

    Feel free to write to me with your personal thoughts and expressions confidentially if you are not comfortable to express on a public forum here. My contact is and I would love to share and discuss truths of the Bible with ANY of my brothers and sisters.

    DO we really DIG for truth? Or do we eat what is spoon fed to us? Does not the Bible say to TEST the inspired expressions?


  9. confused says:

    Bro Ed, That was great research. I will re-read that a few times so I can absorb it better. The fear I have left from the organization is gripping. Fear of not understanding something about him exactly right. I have spoken to mainstream Christians and they are not aweful like the org has painted them to be but nevertheless I feel lost. Thank you for making me feel welcomed here.


    • Bro. Ed says:

      Bro Ed, That was great research. I will re-read that a few times so I can absorb it better. The fear I have left from the organization is gripping. Fear of not understanding something about him exactly right. I have spoken to mainstream Christians and they are notaweful like the org has painted them to be but nevertheless I feel lost. Thank you for making me feel welcomed here.

      My dear sister, you don’t have to know everything about God or His Son, or the meatier things of the scriptures to be counted worthy. Christ’s load is light, his expectations of what we need to do for salvation, is simple to attain; why remember, 3000 were baptized on the very same day they heard the gospel about Christ (Acts 2:41) in order to be saved.

      The feelings you are currently struggling with is caused by the false belief that is instilled in every Jehovah’s Witness from the moment they come into the organisation, that being: Only the visible organisation via his Governing Body provide the spiritual food, the true knowledge about God’s Word and His will. This is an incredibly powerful controlling force over 7 million people. But guess what, that’s not what Jesus said. He said: “But as for you, Christ has poured out his Spirit on you. As long as his Spirit remains in you, you do not need anyone to teach you. For his Spirit teaches you about everything, and what he teaches is true, not false. Obey the Spirit’s teaching, then, and remain in union with Christ.” (1 John 2:27 GNT)

      Does that mean that there isn’t a need for teachers to share knowledge? Of course not. Paul clearly shows in Ephesians 4:11-15, “And he gave some as apostles, some as prophets, some as evangelizers, some as shepherds and teachers, 12 with a view to the readjustment of the holy ones, for ministerial work, for the building up of the body of the Christ, 13 until we all attain to the oneness in the faith and in the accurate knowledge of the Son of God, to a full-grown man, to the measure of stature that belongs to the fullness of the Christ; 14 in order that we should no longer be babes, tossed about as by waves and carried hither and thither by every wind of teaching by means of the trickery of men, by means of cunning in contriving error. 15 But speaking the truth, let us by love grow up in all things into him who is the head, Christ.” (NWT)

      Look then dear sister, to those that can help you “attain to the oneness in the faith and in the accurate knowledge of the Son of God, to a full-grown man, to the measure of stature that belongs to the fullness of the Christ”. Anything else is a “teaching by means of the trickery of men, by means of cunning in contriving error.” To what end? “By love grow up in all things into him who is the head, Christ.”

      Free yourself from bondage and Christ will guide you.

      Your brother in Christ


    • greybeard says:

      We understand how you feel sister, these are normal feelings you have and we had them too. Just give it time and keep searching and praying for knowledge. Knowing what you know now you could never go back and ever feel the same again. So move forward… You always could go back if you felt the need but for most of us, we no longer trust man. Especially these men who have mislead us. Psalm 146:3 The Christian hope is a heavenly hope and that door is still open to all of us including you. Do not let them close that door on you. Matthew 23:13-15


  10. Ruth says:

    Dear Brothers. Dear confused.
    I can only show you what I have been shown by the Holy spirit as to who Jesus is, and how angry we should feel about what they have done to him personally. They seem to think it is all about the organization. In fact it is all about him.

    I would not want to be apart of any organization that repeatedly adds and takes away from the Holy writings. Revelation 22:18
    The watch tower society has added the following plus so much more to suit who they want Jesus to be. John 8:58
    There trumped up version “Jesus said to them: Most truly I say to you, Before Abraham came into existence (l have been.)
    They are claiming there are two Gods. Almighty and mighty.
    They demoted Jesus to an angle.
    He is indeed divine. Colossians 2:9
    The Watchtower society by bringing our Lord and saviour to his knees under there rules and regulations has put themselves in his pace! Pushing him into a dark hole. Well trying! But he will return as King of King and Lord of lords. They will receive divine justice. Revelation 18:4

    “Come to Jehovah organization fro salvation? No! no. Please get out of her.
    Absolute Blasphemy.
    Sister Ruth.


  11. Ruth says:

    dear bro Ed.
    Jesus is the only one that actually came out from God, created from God’s own thoughts and then His Word. Everything thereafter was made through his firstborn Son as Colossians 1:15-20 confesses. Isn’t that beautiful…it made me tearful when I understood this and reflected on the real sacrifice God made and the love he has for all mankind, even though we are sinful and don’t deserve it. It was the truest of sacrifices!

    bro Ed. I must say what you wrote has certainly come into my mind many a time. Jesus Being born of God. The father and son are truly divine.I have discussed this with others who also can see that. The word “rightly” can call God his father! yet still be divine.
    It does bring a tear to my mind as well. It does make me happy deep inside.
    your sister Ruth.


  12. Ruth says:

    Larry Jon Wayne
    Quote Referring John.S
    I read another sister’s comment to him that she said he was so loving, but I did not get that from his comments, more that he was defending the “organization” at all costs no matter if they are right or wrong. It is kind of like nationalism that we all find distasteful “MY Country, Right or Wrong”.

    Brother Wayne: John S has a very soft heart when you get to know him. I notice your email is kindloving.

    He was very kind to me on J/W struggle and I will say so.
    I am not going to judge this brother! on the other hand I will honour his kindness or anyone else’s to me.

    Love goodness. Love kindness and be modest when walking with your God.
    Sister Ruth.


  13. John S. says:

    To Brother LJW,I’m sorry I wrote too much,you misunderstood my thoughts.Sister Ruth knows.Sorry for too much output,I will just be listening now;enjoying your thoughts…..John S.


  14. John S. says:

    To Bro.LJW….you don’t remember me,I guess.We met online&telephone-1 month or so.You r good brother;mistreeted terribly by W.T.You kin reed my stories on 4 prts of this “Struggle”.I wrote more thn u kin stomick,but we r defnetly on right side of fence.I body slmmed W.T. when they deserved it,but love the brothers n sisters.You’re good guy LJW,love you too.


  15. Dear John,

    I think I mistook you for another John that posted on a different site, so my deepest apologies! I thought you were another John, also with a last initial S., who is part of the Watchtower “organization” I think actually working in “bethel”.

    I read again and paid more attention to what you wrote after my mistake and could see that I was wrong, mistaking you for another person.

    I really like this site, and the people on it. It is so amazing to me that I still believe what the Bible says after the “organization” made it invalid by their traditions. I realize there are so many things I do not know anymore, except the main points of Christianity that is LOVE and MERCY, which the “organization” has lost touch with because of their wanting THEMSELVES to be so righteous and bright white. It reminds me of what the Christ said about ones being “whitewashed graves”.

    I do not want to bash individuals so I hope it is never taken that way. I still consider myself a Witness for God, but after the “organization” has lied so much, covered over so much of their own sins, not treated the flock with tenderness, that I just can never believe nor trust them anymore. I HATE LIES.

    John, you showed your true Christian attitude and Christian love when you did not get upset at me and did not retaliate toward my mistake, and so did the other sister who also responded to my mistake.

    You were tested by my mistake, but I assure you that I did not do it intentionally. I am one of the most imperfect persons on this earth and I am well aware of it. I usually do not put my foot in my mouth, usually my sins are in other areas, but I sure choked on both feet that time.

    It is so EASY to confess to sins when it is to loving persons! Too bad the “organization” just does not get it.

    John, now that you reminded me who you are, and I realized you are not the other John, please contact me at my e-mail or my phone which you should have both, but I will give you my e-mail here again, as it has been a while since we talked.



  16. Robert says:

    Saturday night, for the first time I expressed my Christian views to another without the prism of the watchtower. We openly discussed Christmas, gaining accurate knowledge, and what knowing God and his son really means and how those are factors that effect our Christian consience, related to matters that aren’t specifically addresed in the scriptures. I did not presume to judge this “christian brother” I spoke with and he did not judge me. We exchanged our scriptual reasoning, prayerfully and with a spirit of love for our mutual benefit. it was beautiful and I feel closer to this friend now, more than ever. I have been inactive and quasi-active for a long time suffering from extreme feelings of guilt seemingly having no where to turn even feeling as if I was not worthy to pray for help because of my inability to fully live up to the organizations rules at least in my own mind. I now see that the spirit of Jesus’ message isn’t living up to rules so much as it is submitting ourselves to his love and his council that we get from him, by taking in accurate knowledge of Him and Jehovah and coming to KNOW them as personal friends. I see now that if we allow that to happen we automatically want to tell our other friends about our wonderful relationship and encourage them to join us in that love.
    (1 Timothy 1: 3-7) 3 As I urged you when I went into Macedonia, stay there in Ephesus so that you may command certain people not to teach false doctrines any longer 4 or to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies. Such things promote controversial speculations rather than advancing God’s work—which is by faith. 5 The goal of this command is love, which comes from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith. 6 Some have departed from these and have turned to meaningless talk. 7 They want to be teachers of the law, but they do not know what they are talking about or what they so confidently affirm.
    “The goal of this command is love, which comes from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith.” as it affected me societies doctrine in many ways promoted “controversial speculations rather than advancing God’s work—which is by faith” I do not desire to be a teacher of the LAW rather one that examines it with others and applies it to my self in a spirit of love.
    Anyway thank you brothers for showing me that I can approach Jehovah in prayer with Jesus as my mediator. And that I can benefit from wholesome christian association without the direction of the organizations liturature to mediate my relationshoip with Christ.

    Your loving brother


  17. Ruth says:

    Hi Robert.
    I love your sincere heart. So glad you are able to express your views openly now. Your not alone anymore!
    Yes! Out of false religion into our Lord and saviors arms.
    COME TO ME! That is what Jesus calls us to do. He will refresh our souls.
    Enjoy your new christian freedom of liberty.
    Jesus will guide you in your walk as to what that really means.
    Sister Ruth.


  18. John S. says:

    Hey,Robert,welcome to the “Struggle”.You will enjoy the subjects these men throw out for discussion.They’re not hindered by iny feer of men,nor is inyone commenting here on this site.The proper love for Lord Jesus,ind his teechings r whot is tot.There is no struggle to freely speek the mind (or properly spell words)forgive me my keybord lost some letters due to spilling something on it.To LJW….no problemo,everything’s ok brother,keep reeding ‘n’ writin’.On subjects like true substnce of God,’n’ his Son,we’ll know for sure when we get up there,see God ,’nd Jesus sitting next to Him,”now will you tell us the whole truth ’bout this or the other?”John 17:5(see 5th book of N.T.’cts 7:55…see John 17:20-26 where Jesus is t’lking to God ’bout their reltionship in he’ven.(see Luke23:46)Best to go to horse’s mouth to get best comments on God&Son,eh?(M’tthew 17:5)


  19. Daniel Metz says:

    I don’t take of the emblems because I am not anointed and not in the “new covenant” or in the covenant for a Kingdom. I do eat of Jesus “the living bread” by exercising faith in him and his ransom sacrifice. Jehovah’s Witnesses did not create this doctrine of two hopes. They expected that all Christians would be anointed before Armageddon. But Jehovah did not anoint all of the Bible Students and that fact became clear already in the 1920s. One of my grandmothers was anointed but my other grandmother and her husband were not anointed, although all three of them were baptized in the 1920s. I know that I am not anointed. No one has forced me to reject the heavenly hope. I have no desire to live there, but my paternal grandmother did.

    In the first century, some Jewish Christians were not ready to accept the implications of the fact that Jesus had poured out the holy spirit on uncircumcised Gentiles. They thought there could only be one way to be acceptable to God, that is, for all the male worshippers of Jehovah to be circumcised. They resisted the decision of the first-century apostles and older men.

    Some of Jehovah’s Witnesses resist the teaching of two hopes today, even though that is the reality. They say: “If there was only one hope for Christians in the first century, then there must be only one hope now.” They believe, as the Protestants do, in the false doctrine of sola scriptura. We Witnesses believe that Jehovah helps us understand the truth more than they did in the first century and guides his people with the holy spirit. Paul said that knowledge was partial in his day and prophesying was partial then, but it is getting more and more complete as Armageddon approaches.

    Taking of the emblems at the Memorial will not give anyone everlasting life. Having faith in the ransom does. I pass the bread and the wine to my neighbour, because I am happy to declare my hope to be a subject of the heavenly government. I don’t feel jealous or shortchanged.

    I love being one of Jehovah’s Witnesses and reading the Society’s publications. I am happy with my elders and their loving care of me. I love the brothers and sisters and they love me, even though I am the only Caucasian in my congregation.

    Jehovah’s Witnesses need no reform. We don’t need to become Protestants. We don’t need to take blood transfusions, celebrate Christmas and birthdays, stop disfellowshipping for “theological differences”. We faithful believers have faith that Jesus is with us all the days until the end of the system of things. We like preaching the Kingdom and talking about salvation through Jesus’ blood, as the Watchtower recently pointed out is the two-fold good news that we bring to people.


  20. Bro. Ed says:

    Brother Daniel, there can be no “two-fold good news”. There is only one Gospel or Good News handed down from God. As the Apostle Paul said in Galatians 1:6-9, “6 I marvel that YOU are being so quickly removed from the One who called YOU with Christ’s undeserved kindness over to another sort of good news. 7 But it is not another; only there are certain ones who are causing YOU trouble and wanting to pervert the good news about the Christ. 8 However, even if we or an angel out of heaven were to declare to YOU as good news something beyond what we declared to YOU as good news, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said above, I also now say again, Whoever it is that is declaring to YOU as good news something beyond what YOU accepted, let him be accursed.”

    Do you believe that these words are no longer valid? Has God changed his mind and now given a new Gospel to men? If Paul were resurrected today what Gospel would he preach to the world? I don’t believe anything has changed and stringing passages from various books of the bible to create a “new” gospel or, for that matter, adding to the one given directly by God should not be followed, no matter how it’s presented.


  21. John S. says:



  22. John S. says:

    Yes bro Ed;We k’n see-efforts-to-preech-2-gospels-to-weeker-ones-or-like-those-who-didn’t-know-the-skriptures-us-who-were-indoktrineted-into-Witnesses—-But-now-we-got-ekkurit-knowledge-efter-studying-for-30-yeers-‘nd-seeing-the-fruits-of-religious-foolery—–we-went-seeking-Bible-truth-n-r-being-led-by-Holy-Spirit—–Look-how-filled-we-r-with-truths-streight-fro’-the-Lord-n-the-‘postles—–no-need-of-‘FDS’—–We-ouselfs-be-fds-es-we-tell-others-the-gospel—–US;word-with-holy-spirit;LORD;F’THER–nothing-in-between-needed—thet’s-Bible-eksplinetion-John14;15thru21——there-wos-no-gret-prophet-foretold-for-Kristiens;only-the-gretest;theHoly-spirit;this-is-the-true-Power-Helper-for-us-‘nointed-with-it;thet’s-why-we-resent-it-when-others-try-to-tell-us-to-go-thru-this-one-or-thet—we-r-of-the-kongregetion-of-the-firstborn-our-leeder-is-one—–we-were-worned-eginst-folse-Lords-n-folse-teeshers-thet-would–eppeer-in-the-lest-deys;see-2nd-gospel-13;22—Good-stuff—keep-it-up—-I-will-try-to-get-‘nother-leptop;sorry-for-krude-writing-Lord-willing-or-I-ken-go-to-librery-to-publish


  23. Bro. Ed says:

    Brother John, you’re doing the best you can with what you’ve got and I love reading your posts. They may be a little challenging to the eye but the words are like honey. Keep it up no matter what laptop you have or how many keys are missing.

    Your brother in Christ


  24. Willie says:

    I think that we can reasonably expect that there are spirit-begotten persons embedded in all “Christian” religions. We can’t call ourselves to the high calling–God calls us as potential candidates for the Bride of his Son, Jesus Christ (John 6:37). A supreme reverence for Jehovah, the Creator of heaven and earth (Luke 10:27); a growing love for Jesus, our Savior and Advocate (I John 2:1); a humble, repentant attitude (II Peter 3:9), and a disposition of faith (Heb. 11:6) are pre-requisites for being called, one would think.

    Originally only Israelites were called (Matt. 10:5-7), and we see by an examination of Rev. 7:4-8 that there were twelve thousand sealed under the name of each of the twelve tribes totaling 144,000. With the offering of the high calling to the Gentiles in 36 AD (Acts 10), the time of favor to the Israelites ended due to their sin (Matt. 27:24,25), and they were cut off with the result that the Bride of Christ will contain a much larger proportion of Gentiles than Jews (Rom.11:11-33) in the final analysis.

    No religious organization on earth has the right to say that THEY are the only avenue for spiritual or earthly rewards because eternal life and eternal death on all planes of existence are in the hands of God Almighty (John 17:1-5). As for all of those who still are in Babylon–spiritual doctrinal confusion–(Rev. 18:2,3), DO NOT IGNORE THE CALL to “Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues” (Rev. 18:4)! I assure you that it will be worth any sacrifice you have to make (Rom. 8:18) if you are of the “called, chosen, and faithful” (Rev. 17:14). Remember that it is better to obey than to sacrifice (I Sam. 15:22). Love righteousness; hate iniquity (Heb. 1:9). Keep your eyes on the Word of God (Psa. 119:105; Heb. 4:9-16) and your thoughts and treasures in the heavenlies–“For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also” (Luke 12:34).


    • Willie,

      You said, “Originally only Israelites were called (Matt. 10:5-7), and we see by an examination of Rev. 7:4-8 that there were twelve thousand sealed under the name of each of the twelve tribes totaling 144,000.”

      Are you saying that the 144,000 is comprised entirely of literal Jewish converts (12,000 from the literal 12 tribes) and that any Gentile members of the Church fall outside of that literal number, 144,000?



  25. John S. says:



  26. Willie says:

    No, Dennis, that is not what I am saying. The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave to him, is “signified” by him, so that it would not be understood until the time of the end, which is now. Just quessing–there may be a ratio of ten or twelve Gentiles to one Jew that makes up the Bride of Christ. 144,000 is the TOTAL number of Jews and Gentiles combined. Jesus went to prepare a place for his Bride and he knows exactly how many there are going to be–not one more and not one less.


  27. Willie says:

    Dennis, Re-reading yesterday’s reply I find that it needs a little elaboration for I should have pointed out the following in regard to my previous comment: “we see by an examination of Rev. 7:4-8 that there were twelve thousand sealed under the name of each of the twelve tribes totaling 144,000.” The key point to be made was: “sealed UNDER THE NAME OF each of the twelve tribes.” I also should have expressed it in the FUTURE tense, i.e., “there WILL BE twelve thousand sealed UNDER THE NAME OF each….” I apologize for being in such a hurry to prepare for a Bible study at 7:30 that I did not give proper attention to my comment.

    Have you ever wondered why there were twelve sons of Jacob resulting in twelve tribes of Israel and furthermore twelve catagories of the Bride to represent each tribe? You may find this far-fetched (I did when I was first apprised of it), but have you ever heard that there are purported to be twelve personality types represented in the human race? Of course, no one is a pure type of any ONE TYPE at this point in time; however, we all would have a dominant type. Consider this: Our heavenly Father is so loving and thoughtful that he has arranged for there to be 12,000 members of the Bride class for each personality type, so that the Bride, too, will be a sympathetic priest with their high priest, Jesus. Obviously in the Kingdom each facet of the Bride will work with the portion of humanity that are of their own dominant personality type. It makes sense–for haven’t you sometimes thought, “I just don’t understand him (or her).” Would it be fair to them or to you to be judging or trying to be helpful to someone you just don’t understand? I don’t think so. To God be the glory for this wonderful provision!

    I’ve often wondered, “How come Jacob had to have children by four different women? It seems so foreign to our “Christian” morals; however, the Law had not yet been given. Well, this is what came to mind this morning: I guess that it would be impossible that one man and one woman could produce offspring with all the twelve personality types. Apparently these four women did have the proper genes to accomplish that feat under God’s direction. There were at least two factor’s at play here. First was the jealousy of Leah because Rachel was the favored wife; thus she tried to win the affection of Jacob by producing the greatest number of sons, and she did–half of them, in fact. Secondly, God caused Rachel to be barren for a very long time. These two factors caused the two sister-wives to offer their handmaidens to their mutual husband, Jacob. We are apprised of the different temperments of each of these twelve sons in the recital of their inheritances by Jacob (Gen. 49:1-28) and Moses (Deut. 33:1-25).

    Those chosen to be the Bride of Christ will be a very select, humble, righteous group–the “cream of the crop” as we would say. Oh, that we may be “called, and chosen, and faithful” (Rev. 17:14).


  28. Anonymous says:

    I wouldn’t worry too much about room for all the invited to the wedding.And the way I see it,all the invited ones are the bride class,and angelic attendees.Jesus said,”In the house of my father there are many abodes”.This will hold true for the millions of Christians who will gain entrance into the sons of God new creation family.The ultra-naive and fundamentalist-style literal interpretation of the 144,000 class having exclusivity has bred a whole host of untrue and unnecessary strife among J.W.s and at least the Bible Student religion that I know of.Outside those two groups,I know of no formal religious body that limits the number of Christians who could receive the promises of the Lord about entrance into the Heavenly Kingdom.Let’s take a quick look at the account;Of course this 144k is the description 0f the building stones in the city,”New Jerusalem” that comes down out of heaven to rest upon earth and where,under the supervision of God and his throne,and the Lord,waters of life issue forth and trees of life producing 12 crops of fruit a year cure the nations who come and literally’enter’the “city”.This is also no doubt,how the “Great Multitude” of R7:9 stand before the throne…serving him day and night in his temple,as these never apparently were members of the sons of God experience or born again to receive the first resurrection.Now as far as the city itself,temple of God and the Lamb,just how big is this thing in size.We all know it is described as the biggest city on earth…jutting out of earth’s atmosphere 1400 miles high.1400 miles wide,and 1400 miles long…large enough to fit everyone on earth inside comfortably for a big event,including the resurrected billions…no problem.As this is of course the Revelation presented in symbolic language,this might just be a symbolic city,of course.But a city that size would surely have many figurative stones to make the walls so huge;consider;If we are to suppose the literal interp. of 144,000 stones,then doing math for the walls,we could reason each stone would be approximately 7.7 miles high and long and 210 feet thick(144 cubits),the thickness of the walls given.What would be the number of stones involve if just one of these 144,000 ‘stones’was symbolic ;in other words,what if the stones were only a more reasonable size,say 3 feet square?How many stones would there be in the area symbolized by 1 anointed stone?17,690,000, multiply that times 144,000…and,well maybe you get some idea of the size that’s being portrayed by this city…which is what we most all understand is representing the Kingdom of Heaven,if I’m not mistaken.Now this city is figuratively built upon the foundation stones of 12 apostles…12 stones are its foundation,and in another scripture our Lord is the foundation cornerstone(which incidentally in C.T.Russell’s idea is a pyramid with Christ being the stone at the top;go figure on that one,this city is clearly no pyramid),so here again,the number of stones making up the foundation would be 12,also there are 12 gates,made of a pearl each,very beautiful,and streets made of 100 % pure,transparent gold.More symbolism,of course,beauty and purity,certainly,and extreme value….priceless.To wrap this up,on this struggle site we see several showing discernment and coming to realize after the Holy Spirit has enjoined to them,as I myself have realized,we have concluded that this number is symbolic of the choosing or selection of a tested and beloved bride for the son of God in this Kingdom of Heaven.We of this opinion do not restrict the inheritance of the Holy Spirit in the late time of the end to a few thousand souls in the Jehovah’s Witness Religion only,or the Bible Students religion only,thinking that their “special”knowledge has made them ultra-superior to the billions of persons who have lived as Christians since the last 2000 years…God and the Lord determine this,as Bro.Willie mentioned in the last comment.As the Lord,and the apostles,the teachers who make up the foundation stones of this city only taught Christians would be “coming home” with him at his return,we can see clearly there is plenty of room for everyone,including the resurrected billions to come on in and rule,minister,eat and socialize “before the throne” in the New Jerusalem,with plenty of room left over to spare.Think about it.If we can struggle out from under the mud that the Watchtower since 1889 has slung out as the interpretation of Revelation,we can maybe begin to receive the spirit of truth in our hearts ,embracing this invitation offered to all at this time,to become spirit -anointed followers of Christ,the brothers of Christ,the members of his prospective Bride,heirs of the Kingdom of Heaven,the greatest privilege ever offered to mankind.This is what has been offered to you,Witnesses,and all others,at this time.The door is still open to become the wheat,gathered at the end of the system of things.Will you accept the invitation?It’s all about freeing your mind of something that was put into you in many cases,since we were little kids by Watchtower,and company.But this is not the Gospel of Christ and the apostles.Seek and you shall find.The heirs of the Kingdom will be the Guardians for the entire human race as it flows possibly into all the universe in the trillions of years to come,as I see it.The prospect of being part of this event is what so excited Paul and the others,don’t be afraid to begin to start hoping for a place in heaven for you and yours.If I’m wrong on this,then so is Christ,Paul and the other apostles and all Christians for the past 2000 years.Don’t wait to see,go searching friends,and talk to your Father and Lord about it,see what they say to you as you read the Bible on the pertinent passages.Best to you all!


    • Ken Robinson says:

      Anonymous, I agree with you that the number 144,000 in Rev. is symbolic. In my opinion it has to be simply for the reason that those 12 tribes with 12,000 taken from each are also symbolic. You can’t take a symbolic scriptures and make part of it literal and the other part symbolic.


  29. Bro. Ed says:

    Anonymous, I agree with much of your understanding. The more I look at the connection between the symbolic use of numbers in Revalation, the more I begin to see. I know that may sound a little esoteric but given all those years of being fed an untruth by the WTS about the 144000, you need to scrub their notion of a literal number in order to begin to see the real meaning; your summation is a great start

    Your brother in Christ


  30. Willie says:

    It is unfortunate that Rutherford decided to claim that Charles T. Russell was the founder of the WTS. Henceforth many things that the WTS has chosen to teach their slaves has come to be blamed on the teachings of Pastor Russell even though they may be the very OPPOSITE of what he taught. The Great Multitude, Great Crowd, Foolish Virgins or whatever else they may be called are a SPITITUAL class and they DO go to heaven. This fact was one of the main teachings of Pastor Russell (Rev. 19:6-10). There will be millions who qualify, no doubt. They are the ones who are called unto the marriage supper–after the wedding of Christ and the Bride has taken place.

    Very few Brothers or Sisters that I have ever known have CLAIMED to be a member of the Bride Class, although I know that all who have accepted Jesus as their Saviour and consecrated their lives to do the Lord’s will are longing to be so blessed. ANYONE who is spirit-begotten is a POTENTIAL member of the Bride of Christ. That is the only calling being offered in the Gospel Age. The Great Multitude is a mercy class because it is not God’s will that any of the virgin class should perish, but they will have to “wash their robes” during the great time of trouble. No one knows who is going to make the cut, as Paul so emphatically brought to our attention in I Cor. 9:27.

    I have read thousands of pages written by Charles T. Russell over the past forty-five years and I feel that that qualifies me to give an OPINION as to his qualifications to be considered the faithful and wise servant of Matt. 24:46 and the “man with the writer’s inkhorn by his side” of Ezek. 9:2,3,11. I do not worship him, I admit that he made mistakes, and I am not what one would call a Russellite, but a man’s words reveal his inner self and by his words I can determine that Pastor Russell truly was a man of God. I think it is a shame that he is so often slandered on this otherwise informative web site.


    • Amos says:

      Greetings Willie,
      I think your statement that Russell is being slandered is taking the high road much to far. He was but a man who spent many hours in bible study. There have been many similar to this since the beginning of the “Reformation”.
      You must realize that we have relative freedom of speach here, & to say that he is being slandered (which is not the case) is quite wrong. We all have a right to our opinions providing they don’t become abusive.
      I could (but won’t) point out several of Russell’s teachings that just aren’t scriptural, I don’t see that this would be beneficial to others on the site.

      Peace to you Brother.


  31. Willie says:

    Dear Amos, In the last TWO days the following comments have been made on this website:

    “There is no way this man was hand picked by Jehovah as a faithful and discreet slave.” 1/03/12

    “Many others of Russell’s era also came up with some good points (as did Russell), but this doesn’t in any way suggest that they were being directly used by The Father.” 1/03/12

    “Its very obvious Bro Russell had his own agenda.” 1/04/12

    All three comments indicate that Pastor Charles T. Russell was either NOT a servant of the LORD or NOT working under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit–or BOTH. Negating a person’s reputation as one of the LORD’s servants and questioning his spirit-begettal is a serious offence–not a high road. Only God can make such a determinaion about a person’s eternal destiny, unless the sinning is blatant for all to see.
    Being wrong about the Church being completed in 1914 was an error–not a sin. He was correct that 1914 marked the end of Gentile Times, so that the Jews were sanctioned by God to return to Israel. He also hit the begining of WWI right on the head with his 1914 prediction. Two out of three isn’t bad.
    Since Pastor Russell is considered to be the Seventh Messenger to the Church of Laodicea by thousands of people all over this world and should they be correct in THEIR interpretation of the Bible, then I would suggest to you that the above comments could easly be considered slanderous. It doesn’t matter what I think–it DOES matter what GOD thinks.


  32. Bro. Ed says:

    Brother Willie, you say, in relation to C.T Russell, “He was correct that 1914 marked the end of Gentile Times, so that the Jews were sanctioned by God to return to Israel.”

    I’m not sure how you make that connection. The Balfour Declaration was made in 1917 and the Jews did not return to Israel until 1948. The Temple, which was the prompt to Jesus’ words in Luke 21:24 is still being trampled on by the Gentiles and to believe that the Gentile times have ended means that no other Gentiles can be accepted into the Kingdom.

    “Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.” (Romans 11:25 ESV)

    In addition, I understand your reasoning regarding slander, but the fact is Russell made many false predictions. He used many of the Pyramidology theories of John Taylor and Charles Piazzi Smyth to base his predictions on and when one date failed he went back to the drawing board and had another go. Again I don’t think it’s slander to state the facts.

    Your brother in Christ


    • Amos says:

      Dear Brother Willie,

      I must support Bro. Ed’s reply to you. Your responses are typical of any one who thinks that their beliefs are being challenged, & in this case you think that CT Russell is being slandered. As Bro. Ed said; “Again I don’t think it’s slander to state the facts.”

      What it appears is that whatever Russell said is to be accepted, & cannot be commented on, (by showing any failed predictions or errors)….because it will be classed as slander

      You have also just brought up the claim that; “Since Pastor Russell is considered to be the Seventh Messenger to the Church of Laodicea by thousands of people all over this world and should they be correct in THEIR interpretation of the Bible, then I would suggest to you that the above comments could easly be considered slanderous. It doesn’t matter what I think–it DOES matter what GOD thinks.”

      So please provide the evidence that Russell was in fact the “Seventh messenger”. I’ve asked many BS’s this self same question, but nobody can give this claim any scriptural support.

      The last question I’ll ask you is with regard to your final sentence; “It doesn’t matter what I think–it DOES matter what GOD thinks.”

      So exactly what is it that God thinks? Do you know?

      Finally, I’ll ask you to carefully consider the words of our Lord & Master at Matt. 12: 31, 32, as follows;
      31 “Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
      32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.”

      Your brother in the Lord.


  33. Willie says:

    Ed, I alopogize for my comment on Gentile Times for it was confusing. Gentile Times, which is figured from the handwriting on the wall in Daniel 5:25-28 and “the fullness of the Gentiles” from Rom. 11.25 are two DIFFERENT things. Adding the shekles represented by Mene, Mene, Tekel, Peres totaled 2520 which represented 2520 years. This number refered to Gentile Times, which began in 606 BC and ended in 1914. Until that year the civil powers were ordained of God, and Christians were forbidden to speak evil against them. This God-authorized liberty to express condemnation against evil governments will be appreciated when the due time comes–especially regarding the coming coalition of Church and State to preserve order in the world. In 1914 all the universal empires came into judgment, but their eviction is yet future. It could be thought of as similar to the President begin elected in November, but not taking office until January 20th. Don’t you think it is significant that the Balfour Declaration came about in Nov. 1917, shortly after the Gentile Times ended–judgment-wise?

    The “fullness of the Gentiles” in Rom. 11:25 is much more inclusive because the blindness refers to the Jews–but it is temporary. In fact, you can see today that total blindness has happened to the majority of the Jews since 36 AD and this blindness will not be removed until the Bride of Christ is complete and then all of the Holy Remnant of Israel will be saved out of Jacob’s Trouble (Rom. 11:26) and their eyes will be opened at that time (Zech. 9:10).

    Have you perchance read the book “Great Pyramid Passages” by John and Morton Edgar”? It is very long (over 800 pages) and very informative. These Brothers became quite expert on the Great Pyramid and in the copy I have the book is prefaced with a discourse by Morton Edgar given in 1929. It begins: “Seventy years ago an earnest Christian, John Taylor, of London, wrote a book entitled: “The Great Pyramid: Why Was It Built? Who Built It?” Prominent amongst those who have investigated the Pyramid and given their answers to these questions is the late Charles T. Russell, the founder and first President of the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society. His answer to who built the Great Pyramid was: ‘God was the great architect’; and that the purpose of its being built was to confirm the faith of His people at the end of the Gospel Age. As you know, Brother Russell had great confidence in the Pyramid’s testimony, and constantly referred to it as “God’s stone witness in the Land of Egypt.’ In one of the first of his publications, a little book entitled “Food For Thinking Christians,’ issued in 1881, he uses the form of the pyramid to illustrate important features in God’s Great Plan of the Ages. The same illustrations were afterwards incorporated in Vol. 1 of ‘Studies in the Scriptures.’ Also, just one month before he died at the end of October, 1916, he wrote a new preface to his third volume of ‘Studies in the Scriptures,’ reinterating his implicit faith in the Great Pyramid as God’s Sign and Witness.

    “But now, within the last year, twelve years after the death of Brother Russell, an entirely new view regarding the Great Pyramid is being pushed forward. The one who is responsible for this contrary view is the second, and present, president of the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society. His answers to the questions propounded by John Taylor is that–The Devil is the Author of the Great Pyramid, and the purpose of this monument is to over throw and destroy the faith of God’s children at the end of the Gospel Age. This is a diametrically opposed opinion to that held by our beloved Brother Russell. Who is right? Is the original founder of the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society correct? or is the present president [Rutherford] correct? I make bold to say that, all who have given this matter any straightforward and honest investigation will agree with me that the view of Brother Russell is correct.”

    I personally don’t believe that you can read the book and study its pictures and measurements without coming to a similar conclusion. It is obvious that its construction was planned and directed by divine wisdom, and that it is the pillar mentioned in Isaiah 19:19,20.”

    Another quote from the discourse: “The most prominent teaching of the Pyramid is the symbolisn of the Top Stone. This Top Stone is clearly referred to in the Scriptures as a representation of the Son of God, Jesus Christ. He is that ‘Stone’ referred to in the Holy Bible which the builders rejected, but which afterwards became the ‘Head of the Corner,’ or ‘Chief Corner Stone.’ Our Lord himself applied the words of the Psalmist (Psalm 118:22) to himself when he said: ‘Did ye never read in the scriptures, “The stone which the builderes rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord’s doing, and it is marvelous in our eyes”?'”

    As you have probably observed, there is no top-stone on the Great Pyramid, but it will be found as we read in Zech. 4:7–“Who are thou, O great mountain? before Zerubbabel thou shalt become a plain: and he shall bring forth the headstone thereof with shoutings, crying, Grace, grace unto it.”

    I don’t think it is slander to state the facts either, Ed. Where did you get your information? What are your sources?

    By the way, the three quotes in my previous comment were NOT facts–they were OPINIONS!


  34. Bro. Ed says:

    Willie, your convictions are strong and very pointed. You have obviously dedicated a great amount of time researching the subject matter. I don’t feel adequately qualified to debate the writings of Russell or the other authors you list because I simply haven’t read them. What I can say with equal conviction is this; The pyramids where tombs consecrated to their living gods, the Pharos. They were monumental idols established to enable the divine passage of their gods to the afterlife. Many were built on the design of a pointed stone called the benben. The benben symbolized the rays of the sun; ancient texts claimed that pharaohs reached the heavens via sunbeams. Now if the pyramid plays a prominent role in the divine plan of God, would not this prominence be plainly revealed by the new testament writers rather than a group of learned men almost 2000 years later?

    I’m afraid Willie that the only scriptures that spring to mind regarding these latter day writings are these:

    “I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by his appearing and his kingdom: preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and exhort, with complete patience and teaching. For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths. As for you, always be sober-minded, endure suffering, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.” (2 Timothy 4:1-5 ESV)

    “Have nothing to do with irreverent, silly myths. Rather train yourself for godliness;”(1 Timothy 4:7 ESV)

    I personally won’t be further drawn into a discussion about a man who fixated on dates, even though Christ and the Apostles repeatedly warned us that the day of the Lord will come as a thief.

    “Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour.” (Matthew 25:13 ESV)

    ““No one knows, however, when that day and hour will come—neither the angels in heaven nor the Son; the Father alone knows. The coming of the Son of Man will be like what happened in the time of Noah. In the days before the flood people ate and drank, men and women married, up to the very day Noah went into the boat; yet they did not realize what was happening until the flood came and swept them all away. That is how it will be when the Son of Man comes.” (Matthew 24:36-39 GNT)

    “Therefore you also must be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.” (Matthew 24:44 ESV)

    Peace be with you


  35. ruth says:

    Ruth says
    My spirit is the going the same way as you About the New Jerusalem and 144k.

    144k is the description 0f the building stones in the city,”New Jerusalem” that comes down out of heaven to rest upon earth and where,under the supervision of God and his throne,and the Lord,waters of life issue forth and trees of life producing 12 crops of fruit a year cure the nations who come and literally’enter’the “city”.This is also no doubt,how the “Great Multitude” of R7:9 stand before the throne…serving him day and night in his temple,as these never apparently were members of the sons of God experience or born again to receive the first resurrection.Now as far as the city itself,temple of God and the Lamb,just how big is this thing in size.We all know it is described as the biggest city on earth…jutting out of earth’s atmosphere 1400 miles high.1400 miles wide,and 1400 miles long…large enough to fit everyone on earth inside comfortably for a big event,including the resurrected billions…no problem.
    That makes so much scene to me so far. This is what God has been showing me. Please anyone tell me why I am not right.
    One problem I am having is The New Jerusalem in Revelation mostly everyone here says is not the bride of Christ. But indeed the fact that text says it is the bride a adorned for her husband!
    Causes alarm to me that not many believe this.
    Also then the angle said to John come see the bride who is for the lamb. The Lambs wife! Am I dreaming this? Is it not really written?
    I never see anyone here talking about that aspect of the scripture just like it does not exist.
    Lamb the groom/ bride the New Jerusalem.
    Why I ask? Why do people want to change or ignore that!
    What am I missing here.

    When Christ returns (Earth tetra firma) What ever earth it is.
    Wouldn’t he establish his Kingdom? Just like Revelation speaks of. The nations will come take of the literal tree of life.
    Why cant it be as described so beautiful for our eyes to see?
    Christ’s Kingdom will be established for the 1000 years on earth.! Who can argue with that?
    The rapture is something else that has be taken out of context. Another story.
    When Jesus said we had to be simple like little children. This is so simple.

    After all the 1st tree was literal. Why cant this new Jerusalem be so unique for us to see with our very eyes and be literal.
    The great crowd is the nations! I see the others as Kings and priests being selected from this great crowd.
    Now tell how can we be Kings and priests yet at the same time be the bride of Christ?

    The father may have already created a New heavens and a new earth. But one that can accommodate the New Jerusalem.

    Also why do most say we are going to heaven. Its not a witness thing at all. Its written in Isaiah that the father made the earth to be inhabited. He did not make it for nothing!

    I don’t know, but sometimes I think people just love to find a hidden treasure that has not been hidden. My self I think it is so simple. Of cause perhaps I am wrong and need to see through eyes of Christ more.


  36. John S. says:



  37. Bro. Ed says:

    Peace be with you Sister Ruth. Wouldn’t it have been wonderful to have lived as a Christian during the time of the Apostles, so that our questions may have been readily answered. I say may, only because one can presume that the oral knowledge received by Holy Spirit would have been shared amongst the first century Christians; as Paul wrote in 2 Thessalonians 2:5, “Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things?”

    But the truth is, I’m actually very excited living in this age, because I’m a firm believer that the Holy Spirit is awakening thousands, if not millions around the world, from all walks of life and divisions of the body of Christ (e.g. Jehovah’s Witnesses, Catholics, Anglicans, etc). Yes, I’m of the firmest belief that the parable of the 10 virgins (Matthew 25:1-13) is set for this time. Daniel was also told by the Angel, “…And now, Daniel, close the book and put a seal on it until the end of the world. Meanwhile, many people will waste their efforts trying to understand what is happening…You must go now, Daniel, because these words are to be kept secret and hidden until the end comes. Many people will be purified. Those who are wicked will not understand but will go on being wicked; only those who are wise will understand.” (Daniel 12:4,9) If we are living in this end time, then much of what is hidden will be revealed.

    Reading many of the posts on this site is a testament to this fact. Here we are with a group of individuals who are freely sharing their scriptural knowledge and you just know that when you read something that is “truth” the Spirit in you says, “Amen!” Can the Spirit of truth lie? It can never lie. True if the Spirit isn’t in you then no doubt we can be misled by others or mislead others. Such is the responsibility to test all things. But the more that the light of truth is shone on the darkness of a lie, the lie is exposed for its ugly, weak and wretched form.

    Sister Ruth, our answers are not far away. As brother John S rightly says, we need to wait and see. We also need to learn to crawl before we can walk and walk before we can run. Pray for those that can help us and those that need our help. Pray for the Spirit and for wisdom and discerning.

    Your brother in Christ.


  38. ruth says:

    What a beautiful comment bro Ed.
    Your heart is a treasure of gold my brother. I can see your love for us so clearly.
    Sister Ruth.


  39. ruth says:

    Thank you John S.
    Yes I am not myself these days.
    Thanks for your encouragement. YOU ALSO HAVE A WONDERFUL HEART.I CANNOT EXPLAIN IT.




  40. John S. says:



  41. disappointed says:

    I find it so exciting and wonderful that we can all look at the scriptures ourselves, by ourselves and then share what we have found with each other and explore those ideas. It amazes me just how many different things we all see in it. We know all of this is just our own ideas because we are eager to understand. Of course bro. Ed, you are so right about these things being sealed till the time of the end. Won’t it be wonderfully exciting to truly find out what things are going to happen in the future! Sis Ruth, I know what you mean. We are just longing to know like impatient children opening a present!


  42. John S. says:



  43. ruth says:

    No John S. But it sounds wonderful and lovely.
    For the new x witnesses or Jehovah s witnesses who look on here.
    When the Lord delivers us from the cults or religion and organizations he starts working with us teaching and telling us so much.
    1st about he organization and its lies.
    Then lets us see all our bad behaviours. When we truly repent and turn a corner he starts teaching us so much more. A personal relationship like you have never experienced fore starts to happen.
    He opens our minds and heart to receive his spirit.
    We actually for the 1st time know who we are and where we are going.( you now what l mean) It may not be an easy journey, but that is for our own good. It is only by our suffering that we can learn and see the real picture of our lives, and how we have to make changes. For our own happiness really. Just as a father wants for any child.
    brother John s. I can tell you that Jesus heart reaches deep into my heart.
    It is a wonderful experience. My prayers are answered so many times. He keeps telling me to be patient to trust and wait on him. ( don’t forget I’m alone here so I’m pretty privileged to have this special relationship with him.
    When you have it you know it. You cannot stop telling other Christians. ( Not bragging)
    Yes he looks after the spiritual widows and men. Stops us from making dreadful mistakes when we are unaware of the devils sly tricks to deceive.
    When he wants to have a one on bible meditation like to day actually. He nudges my heart and I know instintivly what I am to do or say to someone. Sometimes I am woken up early in the morning to tell people or certain people what he wants them to do. Yes its so true. scripturally of cause.
    I actually do not like doing that. I twinge about doing that to people. But on the other hand l know they must get the picture.
    Also because you love them.
    That has happened also to me. I surely listen when l know the person has the h/spirit.

    Or another way the spirit works is, I know I have to get the bible out and sit and let him tell me what he wants me to learn. ( does not talk to me) Its something so hard to explain. We just have to tuned into the h/spirit. John wrote “He that is in me is greater than he that is in the world. He was talking about Jesus spirit! Unbelievable isant it?

    It has been troubling me about the New Jerusalem and the bride of Christ for a long time now. To day he let me see things so clearly. I know now. I saw things l never saw before.
    Actually I am over joyed in my spirit. His message just fell off the pages right into my heart and mind. I don’t need any one to teach me.
    Yet I know we can learn from each other though of cause.

    He can and will do different things with different people that truly love him.
    My heart over flows with so much love for my God. Everyone here will tell you a different story if they are tuned into the spirit! Very exciting.
    Sister Ruth.


  44. Bro. Ed says:

    Sister Ruth, you have it! The Holy Spirit is active in ways that we can’t always understand; but we know it, almost intuitively, when it does. For me it’s like an inner voice, not audible, but rather one that almost seemingly talks over the top of my own inner voice. It’s hard to explain. I know it’s the Spirit acting in me because ever since I became a free Christian and committed myself to turning away from my sinful ways, the Spirit has been at work in me. It pulls me up like a Father would and reproves me when my thoughts stray on things of the flesh. It shines a powerful torch on all my human weaknesses so they are no longer hidden in the darkness. I’m forced to deal with them in the light of truth and I can no longer do the things I once did because they are plain to see. And even though I am a sinful man, I’m no longer unconcious of the sin in me, because the Spirit in me works in me to deal with this sin. Does that make any sense?

    Now, as I live in this world, I struggle because the things I once loved agitates the Spirit in me. What used to be ‘acceptable’ to my fleshly nature, is now unacceptable. What used to please me, now troubles me…deeply. Everything wrong in this world has been amplified and magnified and I hate this world and what it stands for. Come Lord, come! Please come soon and rescue us!



  45. ruth says:

    Dear bro Ed.
    I absolutely love your honesty. Yes I do understand what you said. Actually you explained it so well! That is happening to me with the h/spirit. That silent inner voice. He has taught me so much this year alone. Reminded me of so much.

    Once I recognized who Jesus truly is. That is when it all started to come clearer and clearer.
    You know Ed, because you are so open and honest, that is why you are being healed. I’m so pleased the spirit is letting you see so much. Of cause its going to be a battle. The flesh is a hard one to tackle. But hay! With the true spirit helping how can you loose the race.
    Brother Ed. You are going to help others like yourself to find peace and happiness again by what you say. “To trust again”
    I know the true spirit will send true sheep to you and true believers.
    Thank you for helping them. We love them. I know l do.
    Praise our heavenly father.
    Sister Ruth.


  46. John S. says:



    • JJ says:

      John S

      With respect brother, I want to ask you a question:

      Is there a reason you comment with dashes between everything and strange word spellings? It is a bit hard to read what you are saying…but to each his own I suppose. I’ll keep trying to “decode” your comments lol!



  47. Bro. Ed says:

    JJ, I think John’s keyboard is missing certain keys. I think the missing keys are: Space, Aa, Mm and Cc. Could be a few others as well. I’ve gotten used to it and sometimes I have to smile at the creative spelling John comes up with to overcome the issue 😀


  48. John S says:

    To all my Brothers in the Lord;My son Micah,22,is in critical condition being transported to a hospital in Jackson,Ms.He ingested 4 large “Fly” genus deadly poisonous mushrooms,mainly to get high,I’m sure.He came stumbling out of his bedroom in an unconscious state 4 hours ago.I just got back from thr e.r. facility here in Hattiesburg,Ms.They suspect organ damage,so he will receive better care in this intensive care room up there I will only ge able to leave in the morning to go up myself.Some of the family is on their way up following the ambulance almost.Anyway,I look to my brothers and sisters here,spread the word for my son,a true believer,although errant and myself and Witness kin.WE all could use your prayers and love coming our way.The Spirit is upon me mightily,I am confident that whatever happens can be rectified in the future,so I don’t despair,but that’s now,while the house is still afire,I know it might change soon.Bless me and mine ya’ll,PLEASE.Your true brother and true Fighter.


  49. John S says:

    P.S.I am using his computer.My e-mail address is,if you would like to speak there.I will keep the Computer with me.I would like to keep you all informed,and on this site if I may,as its like my home congregation now.Can I get an Amen,ya’ll?


  50. Willie says:

    AMEN, Br. John. May the Lord uphold you in this fiery trial and may His will be done. I’ll check on your email site, too. My prayers are with you, as you know.


    • Amos says:

      AMEN, Br. John, from me also.

      My prayer is that our Loving Heavenly Father will be with you & your family at this time. That HE will protect Micah, & restore him to health.

      You are right to say that we are now all part of THE home congregation, all joined together in love & oneness in our Lord & Saviour Jesus Christ.

      Your Brother in Christ,


  51. Willie says:

    I am happy to report that Br. John says, “Thanks so much for the care, and prayer.” After two hospitals treated his son Micah, he’s going to be OK. His organs are functioning properly, but of course he just survived poison, so some damage is expected. We are grateful that it was the Lord’s will to spare Micah’s life.


  52. Willie says:

    Earlier I wrote a comment that Br. John’s 22 year old son Micah is going to be OK after being admitted to two hospitals. I never did see it get posted, so I am writing again just to be sure that the message is heard. He thanks everyone for their prayers and concern.


  53. humbleman says:

    that’s fantastic news :)much christian love to you and your family bro john. your son has the same name as my son :) very happy he is safe and sound


  54. Disappointed says:

    My prayers are with you too bro. John and your son.


  55. John S says:

    Thank you all so much,he’ll be here soon,I’m making chicken dinner.This place is like ancient Shiloh,a home of the prophets,and you my prophet partners came to my need in a dark time.Bless you,as you all were there for me.To some we are crazy,for we prophesy and are speaking wondrous huge ,amazing concepts,that we feel we are going to see personally;the Kingdom of Heaven.We did not choose this way,it was offered to us thru the Son and the Holy Spirit.But we have accepted the invitation to the marriage of the Lamb,and we’re going,and nothing will stop our desire to Know,grow,or GO.Can I get a Witness?!!!Thanks again…your crazy brother in Christ…John


  56. Victor says:

    The organization may have issues, but this is not one of them. Jesus said that a lesser one in the kingdom of the heavens is greater than John the Baptist. Jesus did say that he had sheep not of this fold. Have no fear little flock the Father has approved of giving you the kingdom. Rev 7 has two different groups in it too, 144,000 and after it a great crowd. I guess you’ll have me believe that all christians today and since the 1st century are Kings, Priests, and Judges then. Why so many? If the 144,000 are not ressurrected faithful anointed then who are they? Who are the 24 elders in Rev?

    It’s quite deplorable to say someone has been fooled! I tell you one thing, you will never fool me!

    You just want to stumble as many as possible with your lies and misdirection.

    You need to be careful. I am confident that Jesus hates religions that say he is God Almighty!


    • Amos says:

      Dear Victor,

      What are you talking about????

      Who has said anything about Jesus being God Almighty???

      I don’t know anyone here who believes the trinity.

      The WTS has a track record of lies & deceptions, you can find them within their own publications.

      Please explain what you’re getting at regarding the 144,000 & the GC.

      Please explain who you think the 24 elders are, as the WTS may not be correct in their teachings about this.

      I can assure you that NOTHING is put on this site to stumble or mislead anyone.

      To be quite honest, you seem to be a little mixed up.


      • Victor says:

        Maybe I am a little mixed up.

        Wait. What forum is this??

        I do believe the 24 elders represent ressurrected anointed. I don’t see myself changing my mind on that. Might as well not go into it. :)

        I’m aware of the WT fails. Luke 21:8 is a good place to start. Replace “I am Christ” with “I am anointed”.

        Someone commented on Matthew 23:2. Jesus did not recommend leaving the approved true worship of the time just because the leaders were offspring of vipers and hypocrites.

        Say what you will. IMO no other religion is fulfilling Matthew 24:14. IMO.


  57. Bro. Ed says:

    Brother Victor, I understand your passion and heartfelt comments. The article is not meant to “fool” anyone. It is your right to believe in what you have been taught, however it is also the right of others to question all things and highlight the truths that they see.

    You quote two scriptures to justify the teaching of two classes of Christians. The first is from Matthew 11:11. Did you ever stop and read the preceding verses 2-10? Did you realize that when Jesus uttered these words John the Baptist was still alive and in prison? And yet this scripture is used by the Society to prove that because John died before Jesus, he would not be entitled to a heavenly reward. In actual fact Jesus was giving the same testimony that he did on other occasions about the gift of a heavenly reward being greater than an earthly gift such as John had while alive.

    Another scripture you refer to is John 10:16, “16 “And I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; those also I must bring, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd.” (NWT) In this passage, Jesus points to the greater extent of his sacrifice, that being the covering of sins, not only of the Jews he was first to preach to, but also to the Gentiles. Note that he says “they will become one flock” not two as the Society attempts to convey by including the scripture found in Luke 12:32, “Have no fear, little flock, because YOUR Father has approved of giving YOU the kingdom.” (NWT). The Apostle Paul highlighted this extended salvation in Romans 1:16-17, “For I am not ashamed of the good news; it is, in fact, God’s power for salvation to everyone having faith, to the Jew first and also to the Greek; 17 for in it God’s righteousness is being revealed by reason of faith and toward faith, just as it is written: “But the righteous one—by means of faith he will live.”

    You then highlight Revelation 7 regarding the 144,000 and verse 9 which pertains to the Great Crowd. Okay, here we see two groups but did you know that the significant difference between the two groups are that one comes from the 12 tribes of Israel and the other are “out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues”. We could spend a great deal of time discussing the two groups, and their has been some open and free discussion here about the two groups. But what most Jehovah’s Witnesses don’t understand is that both groups are in heaven. How can I say this? Revelation 19:1 says, “1 After these things I heard what was as a loud voice of a great crowd in heaven.” A different crowd perhaps? Interestingly they are saying very much the same thing.

    You make a final and quite hurtful statement. You say, “You just want to stumble as many as possible with your lies and misdirection.” It hurts me to think a fellow Christian that preaches the Gospel of Christ, as Paul and the other Apostles did, that you would resort to such words. If I’m a liar then may Jehovah hold me to account, but as I live and breathe I will only preach the one Gospel of Christ and no other as Paul said in Galatians 1:6-9, “6 I marvel that YOU are being so quickly removed from the One who called YOU with Christ’s undeserved kindness over to another sort of good news. 7 But it is not another; only there are certain ones who are causing YOU trouble and wanting to pervert the good news about the Christ. 8 However, even if we or an angel out of heaven were to declare to YOU as good news something beyond what we declared to YOU as good news, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said above, I also now say again, Whoever it is that is declaring to YOU as good news something beyond what YOU accepted, let him be accursed.”

    One final thing, I have never in my comments here or anywhere else referred to Jesus Christ as the Almighty God. I understand completely the divine nature and position Christ holds. But I also will never diminish his great authority as the head of his body, the Christian congregation.

    Peace be with you


    • Victor says:

      In your article you allude to the idea that not partaking of the emblems at the memorial is rejecting Christ.

      I have read elsewhere that accuses JW’s of having a satanic ritual because of that. I find it very distasteful.

      Perhaps I overreacted when I said you just want to hurt people with lies and misdirection. For that I apolagize.

      Jesus is the Head of the Congregation. It is Jesus’ personality to push His Father to the forefront to get all the glory. I don’t view that as diminishing his position of Head of the congregation. Jesus has and always will want all the glory to go to God Jehovah.

      If there is not 2 groups explain the parable of the sheep and the Goats. In Hebrews 2 the anointed is spoken of as Christ’s Brothers. Who is the group that does good or bad to Christ’s brothers?


  58. disappointed says:

    Dear Victor. Jesus loves anyone who has the right heart and the right motives. What he hates and what his Father Jehovah hates is religious organisations (all of them) that are full of hypocricy. He spoke out against the Pharisees (the repected religious leaders of his day)and told them they were sitting on the seat of Moses.(Matt 23:2)
    If you look at Rev 19:1 it clearly speaks of a Great Crowd in heaven. The WTS used to believe this but changed its doctrine during the days of Rutherford. If the 144,000 is a literal number then that number would have been completed in the 1stC.. it certainly wouldn’t have taken 2,000 years and still counting. To me ‘standing before the throne’ is standing in God’s presence in heaven. Rev 7:11 says that the angels, four living creatures and 24 elders fell on their faces ‘before the throne’ and worshipped God. They are certainly in heaven, I am sure you would not disagree. The Great Crowd is not an earthly group, it is a group that will be taken from earth during the Great Tribulation. The ‘other sheep’ that Jesus spoke of in John 10:16 is merely speaking of the Gentiles. He was speaking to Jews at the time and of course we know that ‘other sheep’ did become part of his flock in 36CE.


    • Victor says:

      The other sheep is the gentile anointed?

      Revelation 14 describes anointed ones singing a new song before amongst other things the “elders” so to a degree it was prophesized that the choosing would continue into this time period. you can use the logic that 144,000 should have been chosen by now but you forget that bible prophecy will be fulfilled.

      I’m not looking at my NWT but I believe that’s the scripture that says, “as if a Great Crowd”. It’s a figure of speech. That’s just another way of saying you believe everyone goes to heaven that is supposedly christian. Does that mean you believe all bad people go to a fiery hell?

      If everyone goes to heaven what is the purpose of the earth?

      Have you been born again with Spirit and Water? What was it like?

      Jehovah’s Witnesses as far as I know might even have secret Illuminati in Brooklyn, NY, but no other religion in my opinion is fulfilling Matthew 24:14.

      Yes I know of Jehovah’s love. John 3:16, but teaching false doctrine is not a good Idea.

      The separating of the Sheep and the Goats are based on what? There’s 2 groups.


      • Bro. Ed says:

        Brother Victor, you talk as if those that are here are ignorant of the basic teachings. Do I think all those that say they are Christians will go to heaven? Of course not. The road is narrow and it takes effort to repent and walk in Christ’s footsteps. Do I believe in Hell? No more literally than I do the 144,000. You mock us when you say “Have you been born again with Spirit and water? What was that like?” Well no need to mock because it is the only teaching of baptism. What other baptism is there, since you make light of those that believe in this baptism?

        Victor, your sounding very aggressive in your attempt to correct us. I would rather you use scripture and lots of love and patience, if we are speaking against the Word of God.

        Your brother in Christ


      • You know Brother Victor, it’s been a long time since I studied the JW’s reasoning that the “Other Sheep” are an earthly class of people now being gathered from among mankind for everlasting life on a paradise earth in the new system of things. I would like to see if there are any clear cut scriptures in support of the view that the Other Sheep specifically are such. At this point, I’m of the opinion that the best the society can come up with is a study in circular reasoning. There are MANY scriptures and the testimony of Jesus himself to support the idea that the Other Sheep were Gentiles that were to be joined to the body of Christ after Jesus’ death (starting with the conversion of Cornelius). Can you support the Society’s interpetation of the Other Sheep with scripture? If so, please post it.

        Your Brother,



      • Thirst4truth says:

        Dear Brother Victor don’t be aggressive.
        You asked what will happen to Earth if everyone go to heaven?

        Sorry to tell you…Not everyone will go to heaven..only RIGHTEOUS…and remnant will be in their dead sleep awaiting second resurrection(resurrection of unrighteous)for everlasting destruction.Rev 20:5″But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection”.So this scripture reveals that there are two resurrections,one before and the other after 1000 years.

        Rev 20:6 says”Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years”.This verse further clarifies one resurrected in first resurrection would never die again.

        Then how could there be people living on Earth and how even some of them would face death?

        And about EARTH..
        Look what Jeremiah 4:23 says “I beheld the earth, and, lo, [it was] without form, and void; and the heavens, and they [had] no light”

        And this will be the Earth’s state during 1000 year reign after the first resurrection in the kingdom of heaven.

        And after the millennium reign what would happen then to Earth?
        God answers it in Jeremiah 4:27 saying “For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end”—so then what would be the next state of Earth?

        Bible answers it again…Revelation 21:2 saying “And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband” and then it continues Revelation 21:3 “And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God [is] with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, [and be] their God”

        See what it says…God “HIMSELF” shall be with us…You know God JEHOVAH God will be with us….AMEN!
        Doesn’t these scriptures say that 1000 year reign will be in heaven and after the millennium it will be on the Earth…

        And I too believe 1,44,000 are literal….
        But not as WT guessed(without proper scriptural reasoning) but to know about 1,44,000 is very important.There is very important insight hidden in it.If you yourself try with the help of God without mixing up your thoughts with WT’s you could decipher it.

        And let me tell how I was revealed the truth by God..
        Really at first I’m really worried about what actually was 1,44000 mean?
        I’m worried about it in such a way that I even cried to God in my prayers with boggling heart?
        And he revealed it to me…

        I couldn’t tell you to ask God about 1.44,000 in prayer,because you might have already asked him in your prayers.

        But definitely God will answer some day,if you cry to him.That’s what I believe and relies only on God for HIS help asking in prayers.

        Your brother in Christ.


  59. Thirst4truth says:

    Dear Brother Victor WT has utterly confused about the teaching of Kingdom of Heaven.First of all there will be no such thing as one is great and one one is less in the sight of God in the kingdom of heaven.And there is a clear explanation for this.”Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven” (Matt 5:19)
    See what John the Baptist says Matt 3:2 “the kingdom of heaven is at hand”.

    In the above two cases it is not literal kingdom of heaven because “behold, the kingdom of God is within you”(Luke 17:21)
    So it is the kingdom of heaven established after the resurrection of Lord Christ in the unification with God through “Holy Spirit” that is it is the Churches of God and even it applies to the people of God “Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and [that] the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?”(1 Corinthians 3:16)
    that is the Church or people who keeps and preaches God’s commandments in this spiritual kingdom of heaven “least is always least in the sight of God and moreover they are not eligible to enter kingdom of heaven and great is always great in the sight of God and inherits literal kingdom of heaven”.
    So there are two kingdoms of heaven one is present spiritual kingdom of heaven and literal kingdom of heaven.

    And the answer to Matt 5:19 is
    (Matt 5:20) which reads “For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed [the righteousness] of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.”
    So one who enters into the literal kingdom of heaven must keep and preach commandments with all his heart,all his soul,all his strength,all his mind.

    So this this is what the clarification given by Jesus regarding John the Baptist…
    “Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he”(Matt 11:11)
    If we observe clearly this depicts that John the Baptist fell short of spiritual kingdom of heaven because he died before the death and the resurrection of Christ and missed the wonderful spiritual gifts of God given to Apostles.So even the “least” means even who keeps and preaches least commandments of God after the resurrection of Christ were already in the glory of Christ receiving spiritual gifts because he had been resurrected.This is the Gospel Christ resurrected and we are already in unification with God.
    So we are greater than John the Baptist at present spiritual kingdom of heaven,because John did not receive this kingdom which we received.
    What a great pleasure for us to live in this kingdom of Heaven and preach Gospel of Christ’s resurrection.

    And finally,I really love Bro Ed’s words and even all my brothers’ and sicters’ comments here.

    Your brother in Christ.


  60. ruth says:

    Dear Brothers andsisters.
    Just a thought from what the Lord has been showing me.
    In Ephesians 2:3 we all formally lived in our lusts of flesh.
    by nature we all were the children of wrath. Now verse 4 says “But because being rich in mercy because he loved us,” even when we were dead in our transgressions, He made us alive together with Christ.(by grace you have been saved not of ourselves)

    Verse 6. And raised us up with Him,and seated us with him in heavenly places in Jesus Christ.
    As I see it Brother and sisters becoming born again we are now
    spiritually speaking sitting in heaven already with the Christ.

    That means we already have access in a spiritual sense.
    With the great crowd in Revelation standing before the throne in heaven could just be as it is written here. (Spiritual)

    Ephesians Chapter 2:6 Now the tense of “raised”and “seated”
    indicates these are immediate and direct results of salvation.


    Just a thought. Sister Ruth


    • Bro. Ed says:

      Peace be with you sister Ruth. Again the Spirit in you has shown you a truth. Yes indeed, if we are a member of Christ’s Body then we are in essence sharing in the promise, a heavenly promise, even though we are still alive here on earth. Paul wrote, “But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, and to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel. Therefore let us be grateful for receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, and thus let us offer to God acceptable worship, with reverence and awe, for our God is a consuming fire.” (Hebrews 12:22-24, 28, 29 ESV)

      This is why we, who accept Jesus as Lord must be disciplined in order to be called sons of God. Paul said, “Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.” (Hebrews 12:1, 2 ESV) He then goes on to say, “And have you forgotten the exhortation that addresses you as sons?
      “My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord,
      nor be weary when reproved by him.
      For the Lord disciplines the one he loves,
      and chastises every son whom he receives.” (Hebrews 12:5, 6 ESV)

      Your brother in Christ


  61. ruth says:

    Dear Brother Victor.

    Just a thought from Isaiah chapter 9. ( A favourite from the w/tower) And one of mine as well.
    Isaiah 9:6 A child is born, a son is given. The government shall e upon his shoulder His name shall be called; Wonderful councillor
    The mighty God the everlasting father.the prince of peace.

    If we break these words up. Jesus is the mighty God. Now go look in Isaiah 10:21 and you will see “Jehovah himself is also called Mighty God.
    Everlasting father. What did Jesus say to this. Call no one on earth your father. There is only (ONE FATHER) Also he is a prince of peace.
    Seems to me he takes on all attributes of being truly divine.

    World English Bible
    But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and will remind you of all that I said to you.
    Now he is either divine or not. One cannot be half half.

    Just something to think about Victor.
    Sister Ruth.


  62. Bro. Ed says:

    Brother Victor, no one here is saying Jesus is the Almighty but rather he is “the mighty God” foretold of by the prophets of old. As the Apostle Paul wrote, “He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell” (Colossians 1:15, 19 ESV) “and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross. (Colossians 1:20 ESV)

    I could write for hours on this subject, but in all honesty just read all of the Apostle’s writings and you will begin to understand the true nature and relationship between us, his body, and our Father. If you diminish Christ’s divinity then you are going against God’s will for it was God’s will that His son be worshiped:

    “For to which of the angels did God ever say,
    “You are my Son,
    today I have begotten you”?
    Or again,
    “I will be to him a father,
    and he shall be to me a son”?
    And again, when he brings the firstborn into the world, he says,
    “Let all God’s angels worship him.”
    Of the angels he says,
    “He makes his angels winds,
    and his ministers a flame of fire.”
    But of the Son he says,
    “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever,
    the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom.
    You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
    therefore God, your God, has anointed you
    with the oil of gladness beyond your companions.” (Hebrews 1:5-9 ESV)

    “It has been testified somewhere,
    “What is man, that you are mindful of him,
    or the son of man, that you care for him?
    You made him for a little while lower than the angels;
    you have crowned him with glory and honor,
    putting everything in subjection under his feet.”
    Now in putting everything in subjection to him, he left nothing outside his control. At present, we do not yet see everything in subjection to him.
    But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone. For it was fitting that he, for whom and by whom all things exist, in bringing many sons to glory, should make the founder of their salvation perfect through suffering. For he who sanctifies and those who are sanctified all have one source. That is why he is not ashamed to call them brothers, (Hebrews 2:6-11 ESV)

    Your brother in Christ


  63. disappointed says:

    Victor, Jesus is the ‘ONLY-BEGOTTEN’ Son of God.(John 1:14-18) He is a part of God. Just as a human father or mother will say of their child, ‘he is a part of me’. It doesn’t literally mean the father and son are the same person! But Jesus is the only one of whom this can be said out of all God’s children, he was the first born of all creation.He is divine like God and has an exalted position at the right hand of God (Acts 7:55.56).


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