Since I know this will be a controversial article let me start off by saying that this is only my opinion on what I feel the bible teaches about the Old Testament promises to Israel.

Most of the Jews of the first century A.D. did not recognize Jesus as the Messiah mainly because they misunderstood the prophecies concerning him. They thought the Messiah would lead the Jewish nation to earthly glory and domination over all other nations. They were wrong of course but these “Jewish myths” (Titus 1:14) persisted in the first century.

Surprisingly these “Jewish myths” are still around today having been revived in the last 150 yrs. or so. It is again common to find Christians who believe that the modern state of Israel was regathered by God to Palestine and became a nation in 1948. It is believed by many that those that call themselves “Israelites” according to the flesh are still God’s chosen people. Is it Israel’s hope to occupy the Promised Land and regain earthly glory?

Paul let’s us know what Israel’s hope is in Acts 26:6,7 – “And now I stand on trial for the hope of the promise made by God to our fathers, 7 [the promise] our 12 tribes hope to attain as they earnestly serve Him night and day. Because of this hope I am being accused by the Jews, O king!”

Paul was preaching the true hope of Israel. The Jews however didn’t agree and persecuted him. Paul was not preaching some future regathering of Jews to Palestine or some earthly glory for that nation. He was preaching about the gospel of Jesus. This and only this was the hope of Israel and the promise made by God to Israel’s forefathers.

We can see how Paul and other New Testament bible writers interpreted the Old Testament prophecies regarding Israel’s restoration and regathering. Let us see  how they applied those prophecies.

Isaiah 10:20-22 “On that day the remnant of Israel and the survivors of the house of Jacob will no longer depend on the one who struck them, but they will faithfully depend on the Lord, the Holy One of Israel. 21 The remnant will return, the remnant of Jacob, to the Mighty God. 22 Israel, even if your people were as numerous as the sand of the sea, [only] a remnant of them will return. Destruction has been decreed; justice overflows. 23 For throughout the land the Lord God of Hosts is carrying out a destruction that was decreed.

Let us see how and to who Paul applies this prophecy in Romans 9:27,28 – “But Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: Though the number of Israel’s sons is like the sand of the sea, only the remnant will be saved; 28 for the Lord will execute His sentence completely and decisively on the earth.”

You will see in Rom. 9:24 that Paul applies this prophecy of regathering to the faithful remnant of Israelites who accepted Jesus along with the Christian Gentiles.

Let us see another example in Amos 9:11-15 “In that day I will restore the fallen booth of David: I will repair its gaps, restore its ruins, and rebuild it as in the days of old, 12 so that they may possess the remnant of Edom and all the nations that are called by My name- [this is] the Lord’s declaration- He will do this. 13 Hear this! The days are coming- the Lord’s declaration- when the plowman will overtake the reaper and the one who treads grapes, the sower of seed. The mountains will drip with sweet wine, and all the hills will flow [with it]. 14 I will restore the fortunes of My people Israel. They will rebuild and occupy ruined cities, plant vineyards and drink their wine, make gardens and eat their produce. 15 I will plant them on their land, and they will never again be uprooted from the land I have given them. Yahweh your God has spoken.”

Let us see how James applies this prophecy in Acts 15:14-18 “Simeon has reported how God first intervened to take from the Gentiles a people for His name. 15 And the words of the prophets agree with this, as it is written: 16 After these things I will return and will rebuild David’s tent, which has fallen down. I will rebuild its ruins and will set it up again, 17 so that those who are left of mankind may seek the Lord- even all the Gentiles who are called by My name, says the Lord who does these things, 18 which have been known from long ago.”    

James applies this prophecy to the first century when the Gentiles were becoming part of God’s people by believing in Jesus. At this same time according to the prophecy in Amos, God would “restore the fortunes of My people Israel“. This could not have been natural Israel since the nation was devastated shortly after in  70 A.D. Instead this would apply to the true Israelites, the faithful ones who believed in Jesus. (Compare Romans 9:6)

Let’s see another example of how the New Testament Christians applied the Old Testament prophecies of restoration in Isaiah 49:8 – ” This is what the Lord says: I will answer you in a time of favor, and I will help you in the day of salvation. I will keep you, and I will appoint you to be a covenant for the people, to restore the land, to make them possess the desolate inheritances,”

Did this perhaps become fulfilled when Jews returned to Palestine in the 20th century and restored the land and made the desert blossom? No. Let’s read 2 Corinthians 6:2 – “For He says: In an acceptable time, I heard you, and in the day of salvation, I helped you. Look, now is the acceptable time; look, now is the day of salvation.

Paul cites Isa. 49:8 and says that back then in the first century it was the acceptable time and the day of salvation. It was also the time to possess desolate inheritances. This of course must be understood spiritually.

Also read Ezekiel 37:21-28  carefully “This is what the Lord God says: I am going to take the Israelites out of the nations where they have gone. I will gather them from all around and bring them into their own land. 22 I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel, and one king will rule over all of them. They will no longer be two nations and will no longer be divided into two kingdoms. 23 They will not defile themselves any more with their idols, their detestable things, and all their transgressions. I will save them from all their apostasies by which they sinned, and I will cleanse them. Then they will be My people, and I will be their God. 24 My servant David will be king over them, and there will be one shepherd for all of them. They will follow My ordinances, and keep My statutes and obey them. 25 “They will live in the land that I gave to My servant Jacob, where your fathers lived. They will live in it forever with their children and grandchildren, and My servant David will be their prince forever. 26 I will make a covenant of peace with them; it will be an everlasting covenant with them. I will establish and multiply them, and will set My sanctuary among them forever. 27 My dwelling place will be with them; I will be their God, and they will be My people. 28 When My sanctuary is among them forever, the nations will know that I, the Lord, sanctify Israel.”.

What is verse 24 talking about? God’s servant David of course is Jesus. What will he do? Compare with John 10:16 and John 11:52. Verse 26 says God will have an everlasting covenant with them. Is this not the new covenant? Now see how Paul applies vs.27 in 2 Corinthians 6:16.

Suddenly we realize this whole prophecy has to do with the unification of faithful Israelite Christians with faithful Gentile Christians in the first century. In other words, they will become one flock with one shepherd under the new covenant. Together they will possess the spiritual land of Israel.

Now having reviewed how the apostles applied the restoration prophecies of the Old Testament let’s read a prophecy that often is IMO wrongly applied to the modern state of Israeli Jews. Ezekiel 11:17-21 “”Therefore say: This is what the Lord God says: I will gather you from the peoples and assemble you from the countries where you have been scattered, and I will give you the land of Israel. 18 “When they arrive there, they will remove all its detestable things and all its abominations from it. 19 And I will give them one heart and put a new spirit within them; I will remove their heart of stone from their bodies and give them a heart of flesh, 20 so they may follow My statutes, keep My ordinances, and practice them. Then they will be My people, and I will be their God. 21 But as for those whose hearts pursue their desire for detestable things and abominations, I will bring their actions down on their own heads.” [This is] the declaration of the Lord God .”

This prophecy is similar to other restoration prophecies that we have already considered. It is very similar to Jeremiah 31:31-33 “”Look, the days are coming”-[this is] the Lord’s declaration-“when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah. 32 [This one will] not be like the covenant I made with their ancestors when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt-a covenant they broke even though I had married them”-the Lord’s declaration. 33 “Instead, this is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after those days”-the Lord’s declaration. “I will place My law within them and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be My people.”

The prophecy in Jeremiah of course is talking about the New Covenant for Christians who accept Jesus. Paul goes into detail about the application of this text in Hebrews chap. 8.

Does not the prophecy in Ezekiel 11:17-21 appear to be talking about the same thing as Jeremiah 31:31-33. Isn’t the “heart of stone” reminiscent of the Old Law written on stone tablets and the “heart of fleshreminiscent of the New Covenant written on our hearts? Let’s compare 2 Corinthians 3:3 – “since it is plain that you are Christ’s letter, produced by us, not written with ink but with the Spirit of the living God; not on stone tablets but on tablets that are hearts of flesh.


Aha! Now we understand what Ezekiel was prophesying about. Not the nation-wide conversion of modern Israelis, but the faithful remnant of Christian Jews together with Gentile Christians who came under the New Covenant and became the “Israel of God” (Gal. 6:16).

Notice what was to happen to the first century Jews who did not accept Jesus as the Messiah. Peter quoting from Duet. 18:15-19 says in Acts 3:23 – “And it will be that everyone who will not listen to that Prophet will be completely cut off from the people.

All Jews who did not accept the Messiah were not even considered Israelites by God. That is the why behind these texts:

Romans 2:28,29 – “For a person is not a Jew who is one outwardly, and [true] circumcision is not something visible in the flesh. 29 On the contrary, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly, and circumcision is of the heart-by the Spirit, not the letter. His praise is not from men but from God.”

Romans 9:6 – “But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel.”

The true descendants of Abraham and the inheritors of the promise are those under the New Covenant. Galatians 3:7 – “so understand that those who have faith are Abraham’s sons.”  Galatians 3:29 – “And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, heirs according to the promise.

Paul goes into great detail in the difference between the 2 covenants, the old and the new, in Gal. 4:21-31. His whole point is that those under the old covenant will not be inheritors with those under the new covenant. Instead they were cast out. They stopped fulfilling the qualifications to be God’s people.

God did not cast away His people because there was a faithful remnant of Israelites that remained faithful by accepting Jesus. Paul was one of that number (Romans 11:1,2,5)

In my opinion the scriptures could not be any clearer on these matters. The Old Covenant was done away with. The New Covenant is for those who walk with Christ. If today’s unbelieving Israelis are God’s people, then what covenant are they in? God fulfilled all the unconditional promises he made to the old nation of Israel -Joshua 23:14 ““I am now going the way of all the earth, and you know with all your heart and all your soul that none of the good promises the Lord your God made to you has failed. Everything was fulfilled for you; not one promise has failed.

All the rest of the God’s promises were made on the condition of faithfulness. The faithful remnant received them the unfaithful did not.

Again, although I do feel strongly that what I have presented in this article is what the bible truly teaches about the O.T. prophecies made to Israel, I have been known to be wrong many times before. So I ask you with prayer to meditate on the texts and the reasonings of this article.











Rating 3.63 out of 5
Thank you for voting!

Tags: ,

126 Comments on Modern Israel: God’s Chosen People?

  1. humbleman says:

    Hi Brother Andrew i haven’t got time right now to write anything at length but i did want to mention a couple of things. you quote galatians 4 i dont see anywhere in galatians 4 the mention of the new covenant. i see the law covenant and the Abrahamic covenant. my personal view is that Israel are Gods people but in a state of disobedience like Romans 11 v 28 says they are enemies of he good news they are enemies of God at this time. but after the war of Armageddon they accept christ Zechariah 12 v 10. if you read Zechariah 14 v 5 all the holy ones are with Jehovah the holy ones make up spiritual Israel. so how can the Jerusalem in this chapter that the nations go against be the same group ? just a couple of things to think about i will try post more tomorrow take care brother


  2. andrew says:

    Hi humbleman
    Notice Galatians 4:24 “These things are illustrations, for the women represent the two covenants. One is from Mount Sinai and bears children into slavery-this is Hagar.”

    Hagar, representing the Old Covenant, along with her children (unbelieving Jews) would be cast out.

    Sara, who represents the New Covenant, is the “mother” of all who accept Jesus. The children of the New Covenant (Sara) are the “children of promise” the true heirs of Abraham.

    Even though Hagar’s son, Ishmael, came first and was older than Isaac, he was not Abraham’s true seed and heir. In the same way even though the Old Covenant and the fleshly nation of Israel came first it is not the true spiritual heir of Abraham. The true children of Abraham and the inheritors of the promises given to him are those who belong to Christ (Gal. 3:7,29)


    • andrew says:

      The prophecy in Zech. 12:10-14 seems to have been fulfilled back in the first century.

      Zech 12:10 “And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and pleas for mercy, so that, when they look on me, on him whom they have pierced, they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for an only child, and weep bitterly over him, as one weeps over a firstborn.”

      Notice John 19:37 cites the phrase “when they look on me, on him whom they have pierced” and applies it to the first century.

      As for the mourning note Acts 2:36,37 “Let all the house of Israel therefore know for certain that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified.” 37 Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?”

      Also compare John 16:20 and John 20:11,13


      • Peter K says:

        Andrew – Many Old Testament scriptures have double applications. Zech 14:2 says, “For I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle.” vrs 3 “Then the LORD will go forth and fight against those nations, as when He fights on a day of battle.” vrs 16 “Then it will come about that any who are left of all the nations that went against Jerusalem will go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to celebrate the Feast of Booths.” I am not sure how we can apply these verses the the first century.


  3. Peter K says:

    If I may, I will share my thoughts. According to the scriptures in these end times, natural Israel’s conversion comes after their return to the Land and after they are delivered from their enemies. (i.e. Zech 12:2, 6, 9, 10; Eze 36:26,27; 39:28) . Israel would be regathered to the land (Isa. 43:5-6 & Jer 30:3), never again to be removed (Amos 9:14) on the (millennial) day (Isa 11:11). These scriptures speak of land reclamation (Amos 9:14; Isa 35:1,2; Isa. 61:4). Rebuilding of cities, clearing swamps, irrigating deserts & farming the land. In the past centuries, Israel was a barren wasteland and filled with swamps and deserts. Now God has transformed Israel into a thriving farming country which exports much of its crops and is one of the most technologically advanced nations on the planet. Other nations (trees) spring to life along with Israel (fig tree) (Luke 21:29-30) points to nearness of the kingdom. (figs=Israel Jer 24 & Matt 21:19).

    PERIODS OF FAVOR & DISFAVOR (You said you did not see any scriptural evidence for the double. It’s all here: see Volume 2, Study VII, starting at page 209 and Volume 3 page 258 & 258)

    Jer 16:13 – I will cast you out of this land into a land that you know not… show you favor.
    Jer 16:18 – And first I will recompense their iniquity and their sin double;
    In these two verses, the word ”Double”is from Strongs 4932 mishneh (mish-neh’); from 8138; properly, a repetition, i.e. a duplicate (copy of a document), or a double (in amount); by implication, a second (in order, rank, age, quality or location):
    KJV– college, copy, double, fatlings, next, second (order), twice as much.

    Here are examples of the word “mishneh” used in scripture.
    Josh 8:32 And he wrote there upon the stones a copy of the law of Moses
    Jer 52:24 – the captain of the guard took Seraiah the chief priest, and Zephaniah the second priest
    We can mark the beginning of Israel’s favor at the point when Israel, AS A NATION, had a beginning.
    1 Chr 16:15-17 – Refers to covenant God made with Abraham, Isaac, Jacob & ISRAEL (Jacobs 12 sons)
    Gen 49:1,28 – describes Jacobs 12 sons as the twelve tribes of Israel.
    At Jacobs death in 1813 BC God begain to deal with the twelve tribes of Israel. At this point Israel’s period of favor began. 1845 years later in AD33 Israel’s favor ended with the rejection of Messiah and Jesus pronouncement, “Your house is left unto you desolate.” (Matt. 23:38). The period of disfavor being equal in length brings us to AD 1878. On that date favor began to return to Israel when the Berlin Congress of Nations announced that anyone could purchase and own land in Palestine, including Jews. In that same year the first Jewish settlement, Petih Tikvah was established.

    1813 BC Jacobs death. Israel’s period of favor begins
    33 AD Israel’s rejection by Christ. Period of favor ends after 1845 years. Period of disfavor begins.
    1878 AD Period of disfavor ends after 1845 years. Berlin Congress allows Jews to purchase land. First Jewish settlement established, Petih Tikvah.

    Isa 40:1-2 – Comfort ye, comfort ye my people, saith your God. speak ye comfortably to Jerusalem, and cry unto her, that her warfare is accomplished, that her iniquity is pardoned: for she hath received of the LORD’s hand double for all her sins.

    This word ”Double” is from Strongs 3718 kephel (keh’-fel); from 3717; a duplicate: KJV– double. Strongs 3717 kaphal (kaw-fal’); a primitive root; to fold together; figuratively, to repeat: KJV– double.

    Isa 27:6 – Israel shall blossom and bud, and fill the face of the world with fruit. (NKJ)
    Zech 8:22-23 – many nations shall come to seek the LORD of hosts in Jerusalem (NKJ)
    Jer 3:17 – Jerusalem shall be called The Throne of the LORD (NKJ)
    Isa 61:5&6 – Other nations will look to Israel as priests and will bring their wealth and services.
    Isa 2:2-4 – People seek the LORD in Jerusalem and worship Him there (Zech 14:16)
    Zech 14:17 – Whoever doesn’t go to Jerusalem to worship will receive no rain (blessings, see
    also Micah 5:7)
    Zech 8:13 – Israel shall be a blessing
    Gen 28:14 – In Abraham’s seed all the families of the earth will be blessed. Isaac pictures the heavenly seed and Jacob the earthly seed (natural Israel). Blessing will flow both from heaven (Christ & the Church) and earth (natural Israel).

    Jerusalem will be the center of worship. (Jer 3:17; Zech 14:16 & Isa. 2:2-4)


    • andrew says:

      Peter K thanks for your comment.

      We have the inspired application of the restoration and regathering prophecies of the OT in the words of the New Testament writers. They are unanimous that they were fulfilled in the Israel of God. They never take an OT prophecy for Israel and apply it to the far future to some modern earthly nation called Israel.

      If we have an inspired application, why would we want uninspired speculative applications? Many apply these prophecies the same way that the unbelieving Jews of the first century did in a fleshly, woodenly literal way when the NT bible writers show they were to be fulfilled in a spiritual way.

      I commented in my article on a number of texts that you mention in your comment. I’ll mention a few more.
      You mentioned Isaiah 11:11 but compare how the vs. before it (Isaiah 11:10)and part of the same prophecy is applied by Paul in Rom. 15:12

      You mentioned Zechariah 8:22,23 but notice how Paul applies the prophecy in 1 Corinthians 14:25

      You mentioned Isa. 61:5,6 but it is part of a prophecy that was fulfilled in the first century (Isa. 61:1-4) according to Jesus.

      Isa. 2:2-4 compare with Hebrews 12:22


  4. humbleman says:

    Hi Andrew just so i understand where you are coming from. do you believe scriptures only have one fulfillment? do you believe the war of armageddon has all ready taken place ? and that the marriage of the lamb and his bride has taken place ? i personally still feel these are future events. if that is the case then so is Zechariah 12 & 14 and Ezekiel 38 & 39


    • andrew says:

      Just a quick comment humbleman on Zech. 14. The prophecy there actually appears to begin with Zech 13:7 see how this was fulfilled in Matthew 26:31

      As the rest of chap. 13 shows how Jesus divided the Israelite nation. Some were purified and became God’s people as Christians the rest were cut off.

      Compare Zech 14:8 with texts such as John 4:10 and John 7:37-39


  5. Willie says:

    Dear Andrew, I appreciate your humility shown in your final paragraph and the thoroughness with which you have expressed your understanding of of this deeply important subject. Frankly, I have never heard this point of view, but without taking into consideration a few critical points, I can see how one could arrive at this conclusion.
    I could write all day on this subject, for it is so dear to my heart, but let me see how brief I can be. Abraham is called the “father of the faithful” and the promises to him were spiritual–“stars of the heavens” AND earthly–“sands of the sea” (Gen. 12:1-3;13:14-17;18:17-19;22:17,18), and they were reaffirmed to Isaac in Gen. 26:3-6.
    Abraham’s wives and/or concubines represent the three covenants. Hagar represents the Old Law Covenant with the natural Israelites through Ishmael, the first son. Sarah represents the Grace Covenant for the spiritual Israelites through Isaac, the son of promise. Keturah, with multiple sons, represents the New Covenant with the natural Israelites, which will go into effect in the beginning of the Kingdom Age–an illustration of the return of earth’s billions during the resurrection.
    Notice that Abraham didn’t marry Keturah until AFTER Sarah (representing the Church, the spiritual class) died (Gen. 24:67; 25:1). This fact is crucial to understanding WHEN the New Covenant goes into effect! The New Covenant will be UNDER the administration of Christ and the Church (still to be completed), thus it is NOT IN EFFECT YET, for the Church is NEVER under this covenant. Unless a Jew, an Israelite, has accepted Christ and has individually come under the Sarah Covenant as a “new creature in Christ,” he is STILL under the Old Law Covenant until the end of the Gospel Age. In the Kingdom Age the Jews, and eventually the whole world, will have the opportunity to come under the New Covenant which will be Israelitish because it is designed to replace the Old Law Covenant–“which my covenant they break, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD” (Jer. 31:32).
    If you have never heard or considered that Abraham’s wives represent the Covenants then you may want some confirmation of that fact which is found in Gal. 4:21-31.
    A wonderful explanation by the Apostle Paul is found in Heb. 8:6-12 where we read [with my interpolations], “But now hath he [Jesus, our high priest in vs. 1] obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is [authorized to be] the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises [restitution of all things]. For if that first covenant [under Moses as its Mediator] had been faultless [the fault lay with imperfect men, who could not keep the Law, for the Law itself WAS perfect], then should no place have been sought for the second. For finding fault with them [the Jews], he saith, Behold, the days [shall] come saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah [not with the world, per se, though the world will have the opportunity once the New Covenant is inaugurated in Jerusalem with the “Holy Remnant” Jews as its nucleus]: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers [Amos 3:2] in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel AFTER THOSE DAYS [Heb. 10:16 is a second witness], saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts; and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: And they shall not teach every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall [future] know me, from the least to the greatest. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.” This is written to natural/fleshly Israel and is prophetic beginning at verse 8.
    Peter gives us another perspective in Acts 3:12-26 where he is talking to the Jews (vs.12) and telling them that they killed Jesus, the “Prince of life” (vs.15). Verses 19-21 explain that Jesus will return from heaven [with his Bride to rule the Earth] when it is time for the restitution of all things which will be accomplished during the Messianic Kingdom. This is when Abraham, an “Ancient Worthy,” will receive his promise of inheriting the Promised Land (Heb. 11:8-13)–though he will have a SPIRITUAL reward at the END of the Millennial Age (Heb. 11:13-16). Twice we are told that all the prophets of the Old Testament, beginning with Samuel, have prophisied of these promises of restitution (Acts 3:21,24)–a restoring of what Adam lost, which was a perfect body, in a perfect world, in perfect communion with his Creator. This means everlasting life on earth for the earthly seed of Abraham and eternal life in heaven for the spiritual seed of Abraham.
    I hope that with this new perspective you can prayerfully consider these scriptures and take a fresh look at the Covenants and the promises made to Abraham and to his natural and spiritual descendants.


  6. Willie says:

    Dear Peter K., I think that our attitude and/or message to Israel can NOT be, “Comfort ye, comfort ye my people….” if we are trying to give the whole counsel of God, for verse 2 has not yet been fulfilled for her warfare is NOT over. If I understand the prayer (Psalm 83) correctly, Israel will be obliged to defend herself against all her surrounding Arab neighbors, as described in Psa. 83:3-8. I have been taught that ten shows EARTHLY COMPLETION in which case we would expect that the ten enemies listed in this Psalm are an indication to the effect that this war WILL solve/COMPLETE/eliminate the problems with her Arab neighbors/enemies. We hope this is so.
    Some say that Egypt is not in this conflict, though others think that Egypt is represented by the Hagarenes, for the children of Ishmael were three-quarter Egyptian. His mother Hagar, an Egyptian (Gen. 16:1), was the one who selected an Egyption wife for him and Ishmael dwelt in the Wilderness of Paran (Gen. 21:21). According to my map that is the northernmost part of the Sinai Peninsula currently owned by Egypt. Maybe that is why Israel gave the Sinai back to Egypt after the ’67 war, so that the Wilderness of Paran WOULD be in Egypt, though that wasn’t THEIR motive at the time. There is also the thought that God may personally intervene in the case of Egypt as we read in Isa. 11:15.
    Due to the earnest prayers of some Jews, probably the Holy Remnant, we expect God to miraculously deliver Israel as He did in 1967 war, for they must be living in peace and safety in unwalled villages for several years in order to have the abundance that is to be the attraction when Gog and Magog come down for a spoil in Eze. 38:8-23–called Jacob’s trouble in Jer. 30:7.
    Do you know of anyone who is warning Israel about these two wars–the first one which is imminent and the second one which will leave approximately one-tenth of the Jewish population alive? Until these wars are over how can we comfort Israel?? Details about the coming warfare is what Israel NEEDS to be hearing right now.
    I agree with the figures that you give for the double, but did you know that in later years CTR said the the double was NOT favor or disfavor, but a double of TIME only and I was glad to read that for it makes more sense to me.
    Could there be another little double as a second witness to the Parable of the Fig Tree in Zech 9:12? Don’t verses 16 and 17 sound like an end-time prophecy to you?


  7. Willie says:

    Yes, Andrew, that IS what I am saying. If the Church is under the Sarah Covenant, why would she have to be under the New Covenant too? What would be the purpose? That would be a step DOWN.
    The Old Law Covenant was for the Jews alone, with the exception of proselytes. There will be some Jews–reasonably several thousand–who have accepted Christ thus leaving the Old Law Covenant with its rules of circumcision, etc. behind and coming under the Sarah Covenant. The Apostle Paul had to deal with these newly-Christian Jews wanting to put the Gentile converts under the Old Covenant laws all the time after 36 AD. Being spirit-begotten and thus under the Sarah Covenant, is the highest of honors–the position of the favorite wife, Sarah, representing the Bride of Christ. Not all that run the race win the prize.
    The Old Law Covenant ENDS when the New Law Covenant BEGINS–with a Jewish nucleus. The New Covenant will eventually be for the whole of mankind on Earth as they are resurrected from the grave BUT– they have to obey the laws in order to get eternal life. The New Law Covenant will be ADMINISTERED by Christ and the Bride which was developed under the Sarah Covenant. That is the whole purpose of being of the Bride Class–so that you can assist your heavenly Bridegroom in restoring the earth to perfection. It doesn’t get back to perfection all by itself; it requires a great deal of work over hundreds of years. After the Millennial is over, we cannot imagine what marvelous things are being prepared for the Bride’s future work with her HEAD, Jesus.


  8. Amos says:


    I cannot find any points that you have presented that I don’t agree with & support.

    This basic topic surrounding the New Covenant, is the main reason that I withdrew from the Bible Students. I had several VERY interesting conversations with them, & even after providing many scriptural evidences in a paper, (as you have) they could only say, “But Brother Russell said”, & could not support their views from the scriptures, as I had.
    There was only one brother that could see & agree that the NC was made with the “church” at the last supper.

    If we read & get the proper understanding of Ex.19:6, & surrounding verses (in context), this shows that the “Nation of Israel”, as a Nation, was to be a “Kingdom of Priests” to the rest of the world. This priviledge was taken from them following their repeated unfaithful & idolatrous course over the centuries, & was given to & made with “Spiritual Israel” the night preceeding our Lord’s crucifiction. As you so well pointed out, this included the Gentiles, Jn.10:16, etc. There is overwhelming evidence to support these facts.

    I cannot ever see that there was any “Keturah covenant”. If there is, why is she only mentioned twice in the entire bible? I’m sure that if it was actually a covenant, our Heavenly Father would have had it spelled out clearly & not hidden.

    There has been far too much presumption on the part of many who gained prominence as bible expositors. I have found that much of what Russell wrote, was just to be different to what was commonly believed at the time. Take the pyramid, for instance, there’s absolutely no evidence that it had any link back to anything that came from YHWH. I had a good look at what Russell & others have written about this, & there is no supporting evidence that I can find in the scriptures for his theory.

    Once again Andrew, excellent article.


  9. humbleman says:

    Amos & Andrew please. give me your view on when the deliverer comes from Zion whose sins does he take away. who are included in all Israel who are the ones that are enemies of the Good News.

    ROMANS 11

    25For I do not want YOU, brothers, to be ignorant of this sacred secret, in order for YOU not to be discreet in your own eyes: that a dulling of sensibilities has happened in part to Israel until the full number of people of the nations has come in, 26and in this manner all Israel will be saved. Just as it is written: “The deliverer will come out of Zion and turn away ungodly practices from Jacob. 27And this is the covenant on my part with THEM, when I take THEIR sins away.” 28 True, with reference to the good news they are enemies for YOUR sakes, but with reference to [God’s] choosing they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. 29For the gifts and the calling of God are not things he will regret. 30For just as YOU were once disobedient to God but have now been shown mercy because of their disobedience.

    I think the one of the keys to understanding this passage would be when the deliverer comes is it the first coming or second coming of christ. my opinon is the second coming

    ISAIAH 59

    19And from the sunset they will begin to fear the name of Jehovah, and from the rising of the sun the glory of him, for he will come in like a distressing river, which the very spirit of Jehovah has driven along.

    20“And to Zion the Repurchaser will certainly come, and to those turning from transgression in Jacob,” is the utterance of Jehovah.

    21“And as for me, this is my covenant with them,” Jehovah has said


    • andrew says:

      It is readily admitted that Rom. 11:25-32 is an obscure passage, difficult to understand.

      It would appear that Rom. 11:26,27 which quotes Isa. 59:20,21 are talking about the institution of the New Covenant which takes away sins.

      It was only through the New Covenant in Paul’s day which any fleshly Jew would be saved, the same as any Gentile. Any re-grafting back onto the olive tree would be as individuals not as the entire nation.

      Paul I believe is talking about wanting to save some of his fellow fleshly Jews (vs. 14) that are alive back then in his day in the first century. What good would Paul’s personal ministry do to Jews living 2000 yrs. in the future? (vs.13)

      I believe Paul is talking about the immediate future from the time he wrote Rom. until the coming judgement of the Jewish world in 70 AD

      As I said this is an obscure passage and we should let the clearer texts that have to do with Israel explain the more obscure ones.


  10. JWB says:

    Andrew, in my opinion you have done a very good job in presenting your subject and I don’t really have anything much to say. However, I would like to address Peter K’s comment concerning double applications of Scripture. I hope Peter will take my analysis in the spirit of genuine examination and will not see it as an attack on his beliefs, which I suspect are based on the writings of Charles Taze Russell (please correct me if I am wrong). Since time is pressing, I’ll just talk about my conclusions with regard to Isaiah 40:2.

    As an aside I would like to say that the Watch Tower Society (Insight Vol 1, “Jacob”) gives Jacobs death as occurring in 1711 B.C.E, whereas Peter said that it was 1813 BC. I wonder if this has to do with the one hundred year discrepancy I talked about elsewhere, quoting the Society as saying, in part, that “man’s creation was placed [by Russell] in 4128 and sin’s entrance in 4126 B.C.E.” and that “such chronology followed an incorrect manuscript rendering of acts 13:20 in the Emphatic Diaglott, which said that God gave Israel judges ‘about four hundred fifty years, till Samuel the prophet” and that a correct reading of Acts 13:20 “indicates that the period of ‘about four hundred and fifty years’ there mentioned preceded the era of the Judges.” I understand that Russell’s calculation concerning 1874 was based on this error.

    Isaiah 40:2 [LXX]: “Speak, ye priests, to the hearth of Jerusalem; comfort her, for her humiliation is accomplished, her sin is put away: for she has received of the Lord’s hand DOUBLE [Grk = DIPLOUS (neuter adjective modifiying noun ‘sin’); Heb = KEPHEL] the amount of her sins.” (English translation by Brenton) []

    * Twice in degree

    Exodus 22:7 [LXX]: “And if any one give to his neighbour money or goods to keep, and they be stolen out of the man’s house, if the thief be found, he shall pay DOUBLE [Grk = DIPLOUS; Heb = SHENAYIM].” (English translation by Brenton) []

    1 Timothy 5:17 [NASB]: “The elders who rule well are to be considered worthy of DOUBLE [Grk = DIPLOUS] honor, especially those who work hard at preaching and teaching.”

    Revelation 18:6 [NASB]: “Pay back to her even as she has paid, and give back to her DOUBLE [Grk = diplow (from diplous)] according to her deeds; in the cup which she has mixed, mix TWICE-AS-MUCH [Grk = DIPLOUS] for her.”

    * Twice in number of occasions

    Genesis 41:32 [LXX]: “And concerning the repetition of the dream to Pharao TWICE [Grk = DEUTEROS], it is because the saying which is from God shall be true, and God will hasten to accomplish it.” (English translation by Brenton) []

    Mark 14:30 [NASB]: “And Jesus said to him, ‘Truly I say to you, that this very night, before a rooster crows TWICE [Grk = DIS], you yourself will deny Me three times.'”

    Mark 14:72 [NASB]: “Immediately a rooster crowed A-SECOND-TIME [Grk = DEUTEROS]. And Peter remembered how Jesus had made the remark to him, ‘Before a rooster crows TWICE [Grk = DIS], you will deny Me three times.’ And he began to weep.”

    Luke 18:12 [NASB]: “‘I fast TWICE [Grk = DIS] a week; I pay tithes of all that I get.'”

    2 Corinthians 1:15 [NASB]: “In this confidence I intended at first to come to you, so that you might TWICE [Grk = DEUTEROS] receive a blessing.” [In the next verse Paul shows that he means two separate visits.]

    From my studies it appears that SHENAYIM (Heb 8147) is used in the context of doubling the amount of something rather than in the context of number of occasions. With regard to KEPHEL (Heb 3718) and KAPHAL (Heb 3717), the folding has the effect of a doubling in size, and not a distribution into two separate items. From the perspective of the Greek employed in the Septuagint [LXX] and that used in the Christian Greek Scriptures, I have come to the conclusion that Isaiah 40:2 refers to a doubling of the severity of punishment rather than the repetition of it.

    Speak tenderly to Jerusalem,
    And declare to her
    That her term of service is over,
    That her iniquity is expiated;
    For she has received at the hand of the LORD
    Double for all her sins.

    [Isaiah 40:2 – The Jewish Bible (Tanakh The Holy Scriptures)]


  11. greybeard says:

    Dear Andrew,

    Good Job as usual!!!

    Well… hmmmmm… you have almost convinced me but not yet. Your take on these things still doesn’t add up to me and that might be because I have a thick head and I am a little slow. Hey… sometimes slow is good right? LOL I consider myself a simple man and I like to simplify things. There have been many scriptures quoted here and there are many on both sides of the issue when it comes to this subject. Not only do most Bible Students believe that the Nation of Israel still holds a place in Gods plan, many who claim to be Christian believe this. There are many Bible Scholars who believe this way as well. I don’t think Freddy Franz was one of them or Rutherford but neither one of them really were true Bible Scholars were they? That is why when F Franz translated Romans 11:29 he wrote, “For the gifts and the calling of God are not things he will regret.” I believe if one were to consider a Greek Lexicon they will find that Franz was trying to put his own twist on this passage. The American Standard Bible and many others translate Romans 11:29 like this:

    “For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.”

    I guess Fred’s translation fits better into their agenda namely that they are the chosen ones of God excluding fleshly Israel. I must say this, if the Jehovah’s Witnesses taught it, I must question it. If I had to chose Russell’s teachings or Rutherfords I would have to go with Russell because in my book, Rutherford was out of his mind. True Russell was off on a few things but not like Rutherford!

    You said, “It is readily admitted that Rom. 11:25-32 is an obscure passage, difficult to understand.” Admitted by who? I don’t see anything at all obscure or difficult to understand. What is obscure or difficult about it? I believe this to shed much light on this subject. I will quote it from the NIV Bible

    Lets take a close look at Romans 11:25-32:

    All Israel Will Be Saved (This heading appears in the NIV Bible right before verse 25)

    ” 25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26 and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written:

       “The deliverer will come from Zion; 
   he will turn godlessness away from Jacob. 
27 And this is my covenant with them 
   when I take away their sins.”

     28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29 for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable. 30 Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. 32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.”

    I ask you Andrew, Why did he say, “As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake”? Why are they LOVED? Who are these “enemies” who are “loved”? Are they loved for the same reason God loves spiritual Israel? Has the “full number of the Gentiles come in yet?” If so, why even preach the Kingdom message now?

    I, like yourself, do believe that many prophecies were fulfilled in the first century however, I do not agree with Full Preterism. Do you? Is Armageddon over? Has the great day of God Almighty already happened? Has Jesus second coming occurred yet? I don’t think so… I don’t go after people who say he is in the inner chambers or look here look there. (Luke 17:23) Matthew 24:17, “For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.” EVERY eye will see him… has this happened yet?

    Yes a “remnant” excepted Jesus back then and were saved. That does not nullify the fact that Romans 11:26 and 32 tells us that ALL Israel will be saved. This is a “mystery” that Paul does not want us to be “ignorant” of so he made it clear in these verses. It is only unclear if we don’t take these verses for what they say. Paul is not talking about “spiritual Israel” here. That is impossible and if one thinks it, they are still ignorant of this mystery in my opinion. Has God unbound ALL of Israel from their “disobedience” yet? Has he shown mercy on them all yet? Has he delivered them all before the nations yet? To think this only has a “spiritual” application doesn’t make any sense at all to me. The way I see it, Christians fate is to be put to death like Christ. The Nation of Israel will be delivered before all the nations. What does God say about that? Ezekiel 36:22 “Therefore say to the house of Israel, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah has said: “Not for YOUR sakes am I doing [it], O house of Israel, (Please note: House of Israel not remnant of Israel) but for my holy name, which YOU have profaned among the nations where YOU have come in.” God is going to save these people who profaned his name! Is that “spiritual Israel”? I don’t think they do that do you? You said something to the effect that their hearts turned to flesh when they excepted Christ in the first century. For those few that is true but Romans 11 says ALL will be saved after the Gentiles come in. Are we not the Gentiles? God I HOPE SO! Did Israel dwell in their land in peace after excepting Christ in the first century? Nope… That seems to happen right after their hearts turn to flesh. How could that have been fulfilled back then? We know what happened to Israel in the first century. Please forgive me but I believe you are leaving major fulfillments of prophecy out in my opinion supporting full Preterist views.

    If Paul didn’t want the Christians to be “ignorant of this mystery” then I would think Jesus would have felt the same way wouldn’t you? When the Apostles asked him if he was restoring the Kingdom to Israel back then why didn’t he correct this ignorant thinking if in fact they were ignorant regarding this mystery? (Acts 1:6) He didn’t… At Matthew 24:4-51 he explain that MUCH time would pass by. It appears to me more than a few years… Wars and reports of wars…. but the end is not yet… then signs and WORLD WARS. Personally I think the next World War will put all the others to shame. Did this all happen in the first century??? No, nothing even close to it. YES Jesus spoke of the future and gave many warnings and to me it sounds like MUCH time passes buy before his return…

    Like yourself, I have been known to be wrong before too. YOU MAY BE RIGHT but I just don’t see it that way… For God to tell Abraham, “I destroyed most all of your seed/children and replaced them with spiritual sons from the Gentiles” He would need to revoke his promise. I don’t see that happening. His promise is irrevocable and unchangeable! YES he can form a “spiritual Israel and he has but that does not remove his promise to fleshly Israel. I believe ALL means ALL and God WILL save the whole house of Israel. Why can’t there be a fleshly Israel and a spiritual Israel in Gods plan for salvation? Jesus will loose NOTHING that God gave him… Did he not give Christ ALL of Israel? He died not only for our sins, but the whole worlds. (1 John 2:2)

    With Christian love,
    Your brother in Christ,


  12. andrew says:

    I guess everyone has to make up their mind on how they’re going to understand the bible. I feel the vast majority of the evidence points in the direction I have stated. You must feel that the majority of the evidence points in the other direction.

    I do not wish to be labeled as a full preterist. Partial preterist may be more accurate but I don’t follow some theological ideology I only try to go where the scriptures take me. But that is another subject.

    I’m sorry I can’t do better to answer every question in your mind on this subject.

    The beauty of our freedom in Christ is that we can agree to disagree on this subject, without it splitting our unity as Christians.



    • greybeard says:

      Well Andrew,

      I am not trying to label you my brother. Sorry if I came across that way…

      Could you answer just one of my questions then? Do you believe the “full number of the Gentiles” has come in yet as stated in Romans 11:25?


  13. JWB says:

    Dear Greybeard, first I would like to know what you understand by the meaning “saved” with reference to Israel. Secondly, how do you feel a modern nation of Israel figures in God’s plan? What promise(s) to Israel, if any, do you think are still unfulfilled? If the Mosaic law was “a tutor leading to Christ”, and he is “the Law’s fulfillment”, why would Israel as a nation still need to figure in God’s plan? You know I got to thinking about these scriptures:

    “[S]urely blessing I will bless thee, and multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of heaven, and as the sand which is by the shore of the sea, and thy seed shall inherit the cities of their enemies. And in thy seed shall all the nations {Grk = ethnos} of the earth {Grk = gē (soil/land)} be blessed, because thou hast harkened to my voice.” [Genesis 22:17, 18; LXX (Brenton)]

    This promise seems to me to fork out into three distinct ‘blessings’:

    1. The first blessing would be in Abraham’s having inumerable descendants. I understand that in Abraham’s time being “fruitful” (ie having large families) was considered something to be proud of. Having a barren wife was considered a major disappointment.

    2. Abraham’s descendants would inherit or take hold of the cities (and of course the land on which those cities were built) of their enemies.

    3. All nations would receive a blessing through his ancestral line. In the Christian faith this is seen as Abraham’s descendant Jesus of Nazareth who fulfilled Genesis 49:10. This scripture records a prediction that the “scepter” and “commander’s staff” (symbols of rulership) would continue to belong to Judah UNTIL Shiloh (“he to whom it belongs”) came. Once Messiah (or Christ) Jesus came, the guaranteed period of Judah’s ownership to rule by genetic inheritance finished.

    Just some thoughts.

    Your brother


    • greybeard says:

      Dear brother JWB,

      Romans 11:25-32 I believe explains this quite well:
      “ 25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26 and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written:
         “The deliverer will come from Zion; 
   he will turn godlessness away from Jacob. 
27 And this is my covenant with them 
   when I take away their sins.”
       28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29 for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable. 30 Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. 32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.”

      Again I ask, what is unclear about this? doesn’t this explain how and when ALL of Israel will be saved? Yes a “part” did except Christ but the rest are “hardened” until the full number of the Gentiles has come in”. That is YOU and ME unless you are a Jew. Romans 11:32 tells us God will have mercy on them ALL. Thus after holding them bound in disobedience and hardening their hearts until the Gentiles have come in, God shows mercy on them all. If they “ALL” were saved back in the first century, if God showed “mercy on them all” (not part) back then, then the time for the Gentiles to come in had to have ended back then. That leaves YOU and ME out. I surly do not think all of the Gentiles have come in yet and I do not see all of Israel as having a change of heart yet. Those prophecies have not yet been fulfilled. Forgive me please but I honestly do not understand why this is obscure and difficult to understand.

      As far as your question:
      If the Mosaic law was “a tutor leading to Christ”, and he is “the Law’s fulfillment”, why would Israel as a nation still need to figure in God’s plan? Sorry but I honestly do not understand the logic of this question. How does Christ being the fulfillment of many prophecies negate Gods promises to Israel? The problem many are having here is they believe “spiritual Israel” replaces “fleshly Israel” and God actually will not show mercy on the “whole house of Israel.” Where does it teach this in the Bible? Where does it teach that opening up a new heavenly hope for “spiritual Israel closes the hope for “fleshly Israel”? Those scriptures do not exist. One needs to READ INTO or ADD to the Bible and avoid all of Paul words in Roman chapter 11.

      What exactly did Paul mean when he said this at Romans 11:25, “For I do not want YOU, brothers, to be ignorant of this sacred secret, in order for YOU not to be discreet in your own eyes: that a dulling of sensibilities (or hardening as other Bibles put it) has happened in part to Israel until the full number of people of the nations has come in”…?? What did he mean by that? How could they be “discreet” in their “own eyes”? Wouldn’t it be as he explains, by them not recognizing “Israel has experienced a “dulling of sensibilities” or ‘hardening” in part until the full number of the Nations/Gentiles has come in” and thinking that they were replacing Gods chosen people? Not believing as it says, “in this way all Israel will be saved”. Thinking Gods promises has ben revoked?

      Romans chapter 11 is not obscure or difficult to understand. If it is then one is missing the entire point of Paul’s words in my opinion. Who knows, maybe I am missing it… it won’t be the first time. However, on this one, I don’t think so. None of us really will know until it is all over will we? I am not going to take the chance and say that God is done with the fleshly nation of Israel. It is clear in Gods word that he plans on saving “ALL” of them to me. He plans on removing the heart of stone after the Gentiles have ALL came in. The “dulling of sensibilities” or “hardening” of Israel is still in place to this day as I see it.

      With Christian love,
      Your brother in Christ,


      • JWB says:

        Dear Brother Greybeard, thanks for your response.

        “However, you are the ones that have stuck with me in my trials; and I MAKE A COVENANT WITH YOU, JUST AS MY FATHER HAS MADE A COVENANT WITH ME, FOR A KINGDOM, that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones to judge the twelve tribes of Israel.” [Luke 22:28-30; NWT]

        I understand that the New Covenant involves the selection of ‘kings and priests’ who form with Christ ‘a kingdom’. This is why I believe JWs pose a legitimate question when they say in effect, “If everyone is going to heaven to be a ruler with Christ, who are the ones they are going to rule over?” I believe that is YOU and ME and anyone else who wishes to come under the spiritual kingdom of Christ, the New Jerusalem. I also believe that unless we look at the Christian Greek scriptures in light of the hope of the Christians of the first century, who were keeping close in mind the “day of the Lord” (2 Peter 3:12), I don’t think we can get fully to grips with what is contained in them.

        “How does Christ being the fulfillment of many prophecies negate Gods promises to Israel?” I would respond by saying that the death of Christ did away with the need for the continuation of the Jewish system of things. In Colossians 2:13-15, Paul says that when Jesus died he “blotted out the handwritten document against us, which consisted of decrees and which was in opposition to us; and He has taken it out of the way” (NWT). Thus God’s covenant with natural Israel, as a nation in a special relationship with God, as God’s chosen people, ended and the New Covenant started. When Jesus finished his earthly course, there was only one final promise made to Abraham that was left to be fulfilled, and that promise was in connection with the ‘nations’, not Israel.

        I believe the showing of mercy on “the whole house of Israel” is the same mercy that is held out to what I would call “the whole house of the Gentiles”. The legal instrument in the form of the Mosaic Law being “taken out of the way”, I consider to be a blessing to Israel. Now that Christ had paid the ransom, the condemnation at birth that hung around the necks of not just Israel, but the whole of humankind on account of Adam’s sin, was wiped out.

        If we do not look at individual scriptures in the light of what all scriptures have to say on the subject, then we will end up doing what I believe the WTS does (a classic example being “the faithful and discreet slave”). To single out a particular scripture without reference to what is disclosed by other scriptures can lead to the formation of individual doctrine outside of scripture. What would you say to someone who said, “Jesus must be [Almighty] God because Thomas plainly said, ‘My Lord and my God’ and nowhere in the Bible does it show Jesus disagreed with him.” Does that make Jesus Almighty God? It plainly looks that way to many. However, some of us have come to the conclusion that Jesus is not Almighty God because of what he taught about himself and what the majority of scriptures that address him say about him and his relationship to our Heavenly Father. In the same way my personal understanding, based not on one scripture but by what is said on the subject of Israel and the role of Christ across the whole of the Bible, leads me to the conclusion that any promises made specifically in connection to Israel had all been fulfilled before the end of the Jewish system of things back in the first century.

        My dear friend, please don’t feel exasperated with us who disagree. Let’s not fall out. Unfortunately discussion of beliefs can at times get us irritated with others particularly when we think to ourselves, “They just don’t get it do they?!” Of course I am learning all the time, so maybe I’ve missed something, if I have then please be patient with me as maybe the light hasn’t gone on yet!

        Warmest regards,
        your brother


  14. Ruth says:

    Bro greybeard.
    I’m not one to get into controversy. But what you say is true.
    I’m a simple person yet I can see those prophecies have not yet been fulfilled. Forgive me please but I honestly do not understand why this is obscure and difficult to understand also.
    Sister Ruth.


  15. andrew says:

    Greybeard if you are so sure you understand this text with crystal clarity and that all Jews will be saved because for the mere fact that they are fleshly descendants of Abraham, then why in Romans 11:14 Paul says only some will be saved.

    When was mercy going to be extended to the Jews? Romans 11:31 says “now”. Put yourself in the Roman cong. having just received this letter from Paul. Paul says “now” mercy will be extended also to the Jews. Would you automatically come to the conclusion he meant thousands of years from then. If I said “let’s get a hamburger now” would you assume I meant 2000 yrs. in the future in another age?

    Perhaps after the initial progress of the good news among the fleshly Jews the increases had stopped for a time when the Gentiles began to be included in Israel. Perhaps at the end of the Jewish system of things once again Jews began to believe in Jesus. This of course is speculation but the time of fulfillment was said to be in Paul’s day.

    I will give you another possibility in Greek actually Romans 11:25 says “the fullness of the nations should enter in” not the “full number”. Perhaps Paul is alluding to the nations entering into Jerusalem and the temple. Compare Luke 21:24

    The Romans 11:28 says “As regards the gospel, they are enemies of God for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers.”

    The text says they are both enemies of God and beloved because of their forefathers. It is easy to see why they are enemies, but why are they beloved and how? Romans 9:4,5 says “They are Israelites, and to them belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the temple service, and the promises. 5 The forefathers are theirs, and from them, by physical descent, came the Messiah, who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen.”

    Being a Jew had many advantages in becoming a Christian the Law itself was a tutor to Christ. They were beloved because of that legacy from their forefathers. Also that generation of Jews deserved immediate destruction for the murder of God’s son but because of being beloved the judgement was delayed allowing many Jews to become “saved from that crooked generation” that had murdered the Messiah. But let us continue reading in Romans 9:6 ” But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel.”

    Couldn’t we use that to explain how the gifts of God are irrevocable? The Gentiles did not replace natural Israel they were included in. But the legacy that natural Jews had would continue to direct them to the Messiah which many took advantage of. Or perhaps Paul is only talking about the real Israel, the elect as Romans 9:6 says.

    Remember what John the baptist said in Matt.3:9 “And don’t presume to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I tell you that God is able to raise up children for Abraham from these stones!”

    Being a physical Jew by itself will not get God’s favor.

    Can you see why I said this passage is difficult to understand?

    Can you mention at least 2 restoration and regathering prophecies in the Old Testament that the NT writers applied to a modern state of Israel in the distant future? Or do they consistently apply the fulfillment to the faithful remnant together with Gentile Christians?

    You mentioned the prophecy about heart of stone and flesh but I won’t mention anymore since I dealt with it in the article.


  16. andrew says:

    I also forgot to mention that you said about Ezekiel 36:22 (Please note: House of Israel not remnant of Israel)

    But should we conclude that when jeremiah 31:31 says ” “Behold, the days are coming, declares the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah,” that since it says house of Israel he must be talking about fleshly Israelites? Or is the New Covenant for Christians?


    • greybeard says:

      Dear brother Andrew,

      It’s not over until it is over and its not over yet. Did the New Covenant calling close in the first century? No it did not. Did it close in 1935 at Rutherfords hands? No it did not. Has God removed the “dulling of sensibilities” or “hardening” of Israel yet? No he has not. Is the door till open to the Gentiles and Israel YES IT IS. Can God convert the entire nation to Christianity and win their hearts? Yes he can.


  17. chris says:

    This has been an interesting thread to follow.
    When Jesus told the Jews “Look your house is abandoned to you” what else could he have meant?
    The idea that Jehovah cannot keep his promise to Abraham unless he restores part or all of Israel is not sensible.
    Jehovah maintained his patience with Israel throughout their turbulent history until the Seed appeared, and they rejected him as the Messiah.
    The promise to Abraham has fulfillment in Jesus and ultimately to ALL mankind incl. the resurrected millions and any ‘modern’ Israelites who accept Jesus Christ as the foretold Messiah/Seed.
    In my opinion any apparent restoration that has occurred in modern Israel is a work of men who still believe they are Gods people and to all intents and purpose are still waiting for the Messiah, yet their desperate alliances with any nation who will supply them military hardware shows their true colors.
    There is no path for Israel without Jesus, so in this way they are not rejected entirely.


    • greybeard says:

      Dear Chris,

      Did Jesus mean there house is abandoned forever? Luke 21:24, “They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive among all nations, and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.” They will be trampled underfoot until when? Then what will happen? When will Ezekiel 39:21-29 be fulfilled?


  18. humbleman says:

    dear brother please review these scriptures
    Ezekiel 39
    21“‘And I will set my glory among the nations; and all the nations will have to see my judgment that I have executed and my hand that I have placed among them. 22And those of the house of Israel will have to know that I am Jehovah their God from that day and forward. 23And the nations will have to know that it was because of their error that they, the house of Israel, went into exile, on account of the fact that they behaved unfaithfully toward me, so that I concealed my face from them and gave them into the hand of their adversaries, and they kept falling, all of them, by the sword. 24According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions I did with them, and I kept concealing my face from them.’
    25“Therefore this is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah has said, ‘Now is when I shall bring back the captive ones of Jacob and actually have mercy upon all the house of Israel; and I will show exclusive devotion for my holy name. 26And they will have borne their humiliation and all their unfaithfulness with which they have acted toward me, when they dwell on their soil in security, with no one to make [them] tremble. 27When I bring them back from the peoples and I actually collect them together out of the lands of their enemies, I will also sanctify myself among them before the eyes of many nations.’
    28“‘And they will have to know that I am Jehovah their God, when I send them in exile to the nations and actually bring them together upon their soil, so that I shall leave none of them remaining there any longer. 29And I shall no longer conceal my face from them, because I will pour out my spirit upon the house of Israel,’ is the utterance of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah.”

    1“Look! There is a day coming, belonging to Jehovah, and the spoil of you will certainly be apportioned out in the midst of you. 2And I shall certainly gather all the nations against Jerusalem for the war; and the city will actually be captured and the houses be pillaged, and the women themselves will be raped. And half of the city must go forth into the exile; but as for the remaining ones of the people, they will not be cut off from the city.
    3“And Jehovah will certainly go forth and war against those nations as in the day of his warring, in the day of fight. 4And his feet will actually stand in that day upon the mountain of the olive trees, which is in front of Jerusalem, on the east; and the mountain of the olive trees must be split at its middle, from the sunrising and to the west. There will be a very great valley; and half of the mountain will actually be moved to the north, and half of it to the south. 5And YOU people will certainly flee to the valley of my mountains; because the valley of [the] mountains will reach all the way to A´zel. And YOU will have to flee, just as YOU fled because of the [earth]quake in the days of Uz·zi´ah the king of Judah. And Jehovah my God will certainly come, all the HOLY ONES being with him
    11And I saw the heaven opened, and, look! a white horse. And the one seated upon it is called Faithful and True, and he judges and carries on war in righteousness. 12His eyes are a fiery flame, and upon his head are many diadems. He has a name written that no one knows but he himself, 13and he is arrayed with an outer garment sprinkled with blood, and the name he is called is The Word of God. 14Also, the armies that were in heaven were following him on white horses, and they were clothed in white, clean, fine linen. 15And out of his mouth there protrudes a sharp long sword, that he may strike the nations with it, and he will shepherd them with a rod of iron. He treads too the winepress of the anger of the wrath of God the Almighty. 16And upon his outer garment, even upon his thigh, he has a name written, King of kings and Lord of lords.
    I would say all these scriptures are in the same time frame the same event the battle of Armageddon. and the armies of heaven / holy ones are the bride of Christ so my question is this if spiritual Israel are in heaven with Christ. who s aid do they come to ? if its not the nation of Israel


  19. andrew says:

    I wouldn’t feel comfortable commenting on those passages. Because I simply do not know. I see some indications when they take place but I am very far from being sure.


  20. greybeard says:

    Dear Brother Andrew,

    I never claimed “crystal clarity” and I also admitted I could be wrong. What I did say was I didn’t think it was obscure or hard to understand IMO. However, I could be missing something… I VERY MUCH do respect your biblical knowledge and opinion on these matters. I am not debating the fact that some Jews were saved in the first century nor that those who excepted Christ were shown mercy back then. Still we cannot avoid that a “dulling of sensibilities” has been placed upon Israel by God until the Gentile time have came in. For what purpose did Paul write Romans 11:25-32? Was it not to make clear Gods stand with fleshly Israel? Do you believe Romans 11:32 literally? I do… “For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.” I believe God wants to save them all and God/YHWH will get what he wants in the end as ALL things are possible with God. I just don’t see him failing or Satan winning anything AT ALL. Do you? Colossians 1:20

    You mentioned Luke 21:24, “They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive among all nations, and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.” What Jerusalem is being trampled on by the nations? The Jerusalem above or heavenly Jerusalem? That is impossible… This is Earthly Jerusalem and there is a TIME LIMIT on this. Then what happens?

    Brother Andrew you said:

    “Can you mention at least 2 restoration and regathering prophecies in the Old Testament that the NT writers applied to a modern state of Israel in the distant future? Or do they consistently apply the fulfillment to the faithful remnant together with Gentile Christians?”

    I believe I answered these questions already in this article I wrote a while back:

    I got an idea… Why don’t we all take a vote on this subject and let the 2/3 majority rule? Then we can make it current “truth” and demand that all believe and follow this “truth” or be disfellowshipped from our brotherhood? How does that strike you? Is forced unity true unity? No it is not! As long as we are united in Christ, we remain united. Some things still need to happen before we fully understand them. To me, what is important is not casting judgment on anyone including the blind with dulled sensibilities like Israel. Sometimes I wonder about my own sensibilities and I pray that God has mercy on me as well as every man on this planet.

    Let Gods will be done! 2 Peter 3:9
    With Christian love,
    Your brother in Christ,


    • andrew says:

      Dear GB
      As both of us have said we could all be wrong. The matter isn’t just intellectual curiosity however. Even the USA has formed foreign policy based on evangelical’s belief of Israel being God’s chosen people.

      Just a couple additional comments on what you wrote above. The time of the Gentiles when Jerusalem was trampled IMO ended shortly after the city fell. I don’t believe it continued for hundreds or thousands or years.

      I don’t believe you answered the question about restoration prophecies of Israel being applied to modern Israel by New Testament bible writers in your previous article. Since there are no restoration prophecies that the bible writers applied to a modern state of Israel this would be impossible. You applied the prophecies but NT bible writers did not.

      As we’ve both mentioned we are blessed now with freedom for our minds. The Society forced us to believe that those restoration prophecies were fulfilled neither in the first century nor with Modern Israel but in the 1918/1919 time period. When I think back on that nonsense it’s hard to believe any of us could believe the Society’s viewpoint of those prophecies.

      The fact is during various times during Christianity’s history the question of Who is Israel has been debated. During many centuries these prophecies were always applied to Christians. In the past decades however probably your theory gb has been more popular. So it has to be admitted that each side must have at least some supporting proof they can point to.

      As all of us knows no one should rule the conscience or beliefs of another Christian all of us must make decisions on what to believe and act in harmony with those beliefs.


  21. chris says:

    Well said Greybeard :)
    The thought of applying the quorum rule to such things is abhorrent to me as well.
    All I can say is “Let God be found true though everyman a liar” Rom.3:4
    In some ways this very discussion demonstrates what Paul was getting at with regard to unity.
    All of us must have the ability to retreat from a position when we simply do not know or fail to understand collectively or individually, if it disrupts the peace of God and Christian love.
    This is not the “anything goes” approach that the WTS fears so much, but a mature brotherly consideration that always seeks Gods Spirit.
    In the end we long for(with tears even)for that most blessed fulfillment of Jehovah’s will
    With Christian Love


  22. Amos says:

    I don’t know if any-one has thought of it this way with regard to the nation of Israel…..
    The true believers, Christ’s Brothers, both Jewish & Gentile ARE the true seed of Abraham. Greybeard did bring this out.

    However with regard to the “Nation of Israel”, who could ever even think that it would be the “Political entity” that would be those who God would use? HE didn’t give any promises to any effect that could be understood in this regard, instead it WILL be the peoples as a nation that will be saved, not now (unless they accept Christ) but during the next age when the restoration takes place, this is when they will as a majority repent of their sins in regard to the Messiah, & then, & only then will they be saved.



    • greybeard says:

      Dear brother Amos,

      God saved them from Egypt for his own name sake right? Not due to anything Israel deserved or had done. Why can’t God do this again for his own name sake? I believe he will.


  23. greybeard says:

    Dear brother Andrew,

    It is my opinion, to draw the conclusion that the Gentile times ended in the first century leaves all of us out. Is this not a time for gathering of the Gentiles into the bride of Christ or heavenly great crowd if you will? Is that door closed in your opinion? After Jerusalem is trampled on is she not to be restored before all the nations to see? They can’t see heavenly Jerusalem and they have no Idea who Spiritual Israel is. However, they for a fact are aware of fleshly Israel and this story is not over and that is a clear and present truth and nothing anyone can say can change that fact.

    Why are not the unfulfilled prophecies in Ezekiel and Zechariah proof enough that God will restore Israel as the Apostles expected to happen? Why did Christ not correct them? Why did Paul, in speaking of fleshly Israel say Gods promises cannot be revoked? Is it not clear that the dulling of sensibilities has lasted down to this very day as Paul mentioned? That dulling was in effect for most of Israel in Paul’s day and remains today.

    Should not the fact that many prophecies have not been fulfilled regarding Israel be support enough that the OT is still “beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight”? Why do you insist on support only from the NT writers? I believe Paul gave that support however I do not understand your reason for needing it when we have it in the OT. Is not the OT and NT one harmonious book? I believe in the first century, as the apostles believed, many understood those prophecies were still awaiting fulfillment. The apostles clearly believed this and Jesus gave them a clue as to how long it would be. He did not indicate it would be over soon but indicated that much time would go by IMO. For those who had the opinion that God had forsaken fleshly Israel Paul wrote Romans chapter 11. This is only my opinion and the “facts” as I personally see them. I realize I could be blind but I don’t think so in this regard…

    I do not believe that “spiritual Israel” is a replacement for “fleshly Israel” but rather an addition to it. Another level of it if you will… I believe God will keep his word regarding the actual seed of Abraham. Not changing things by bringing forth children for Abraham from “rocks” even though he can do anything. I think Jesus said that to put the arrogant Jews in their place. Children “for Abraham” is not the same as his “seed”. Jesus is not from Joseph by the way… He is from God and Joseph adopted him right? I do not know what bearing that could have on things but I have always wondered about that one… David is from the seed of Abraham. Will there not actually be a King from the TRUE SEED of Abraham ruling on this Earth? I honestly don’t know… But I think so 😉

    Who here would be disappointed to see God/YHWH save the nation of Israel again before all the nations? The STAGE IS SET! This play continues! One way or the other, we shall see! Two thirds of the world REJECT Christ and those that want to destroy Israel are IN THAT GROUP! Please compare Zechariah 13:8

    I would love to know what your opinion is on prophecies fulfilled. In your view, what has been fulfilled and what has not?


    • andrew says:


      I’m not sure if I’ve explained myself clearly in my article and in the comments I’ve given.

      You or I or anybody can take a prophecy and say it applies at a certain time and under a certain set of circumstances. We may be right or we may be wrong since we are imperfect. However, there is a way to be sure we are applying certain prophecies correctly, how?

      Paul and other NT bible writers quoted frequently from prophecies found in the Old Testament they then said that prophecy was being fulfilled at that time in their day. If we believe the bible writers were under inspiration then that is as if God himself was showing us what the fulfillment of that Old Testament prophecy was. I gave several examples in the article.

      There are of course many prophecies in the OT that the NT bible writers didn’t mention. We must use our own discernment on when and how they are fulfilled. However, for example if every time they mentioned an OT restoration and regathering prophecy and applied it to spiritual Israel, then how should we apply other restoration and regathering prophecies that they don’t mention? Wouldn’t it be logical to apply them in the same way?

      Take for instance the prophecy that you mention above of Zechariah 13:8. That verse doesn’t appear in isolation. Verses 7-9 are obviously all part of the same prophecy.

      Notice what the context is in Zechariah 13:7-9 “”Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, against the man who stands next to me,” declares the LORD of hosts.”Strike the shepherd, and the sheep will be scattered; I will turn my hand against the little ones. 8 In the whole land, declares the LORD, two thirds shall be cut off and perish, and one third shall be left alive. 9 And I will put this third into the fire, and refine them as one refines silver, and test them as gold is tested. They will call upon my name, and I will answer them. I will say, ‘They are my people’; and they will say, ‘The LORD is my God.'”

      Verse 7 is quoted and applied by nobody less than Jesus himself. Matthew 26:31 ” Then Jesus said to them, “You will all fall away because of me this night. For it is written, ‘I will strike the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock will be scattered.’

      So we are 100% sure when Zechariah 13:7 was fulfilled. Vs. 8,9 are part of the same prophecy and so we should look for a fulfillment around the same time. This prophecy was fulfilled in the same generation that saw the “strike[ing] of the shepherd”.

      Jesus ministry started a refining of Israel as verse 9 says thru fire. This prophecy is similar to the one in Malachi 3:1-3 which let’s us know that this refining would be immediately preceded by the arrival of “my messenger” who was John the Baptist, as Matthew 11:10 shows. This also lets us know that Zechariah 13:7-9 was fulfilled in the same generation that saw Christ’s ministry.

      The nation of Israel was refined at that time. The prophecy says 2/3 or the majority would perish in the judgement of the nation. 1/3 or less than half would be refined and become like gold. The majority or “2/3” of the nation of Israel were cut off from God’s favor and were judged in 70 AD. “1/3” of the nation accepted Jesus and were refined.

      I hope with this additional example you can see the profitability of seeing how Jesus, Paul and other NT bible writers applied OT prophecies.


      • greybeard says:

        Thank you Andrew,

        Yes you have explained yourself clearly in your article and the comments you have given. I just see things a different way that is all. It is no reflection on you my brother. I highly respect your Bible knowledge and consider you much more wise and knowledgeable than myself so please bare with me. I have learned much from you in this last year… I just don’t see Satan as wining anything or taking anything from God/YHWH. Colossians 1:20, 1 John 2:2, Romans 11:32, 1 Corinthians 15:22

        Yes I do understand how the NT writers applied OT prophecies. You could be right about Zechariah 13:7-9. I feel it it is possible that it could have a greater world wide fulfillment but what do I know? That remains to be seen. I still am very curious as to what prophecies you believe have been fulfilled and what ones have not. Such as the return of Christ and Armageddon? Have you drawn any conclusions on these subjects?

        As far as Israel goes, we may never agree on that but it is really not a salvation issue in my opinion. I do not know anything 100%… Only 99.99% 😉 just kidding… I just have my opinion based on what little brain power I have. I can only hope and pray that Gods Holy Spirit guide me as I am lost on my own. What the Holy Spirit reveals to us may not include understanding everything in full. We may need to finish watching the movie sort of speak… God may not want to ruin it for us LOL… I believe we can really only guess the outcome based on our gut feelings from what we read in Gods word. You have your feelings and I have mine. Few people or religions agree on everything 100%. What I hope and pray is that all here agree that Jesus is the way, truth and the life. Not any group of men or organization. He is our only leader/governor. What he reveals to us through Holy Spirit may only be just enough to hold on to that simple fact. That is huge to me… the rest of it I know I could be wrong about so I try not to be dogmatic with my views. Sometimes I might come across like I am dogmatic but that is not my intention.

        The apostles argued about who was greater among themselves. Can you imagine that? Maybe they had different views too and Christ chose not to reveal more than they needed to know. I believe we all are on a need to know bases when it comes to what the Holy Spirit revels to us. What we need to know is how to show love for our fellow human being the way Christ did. All of that is VERY clear in the Bible. The rest of this stuff is fun to talk about and speculate on. As the saying goes, “It’s not over until the fat lady sings.” This show isn’t over and I for one am looking forward to seeing God/YHWH “reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven.” Colossians 1:20 I want to see the Red Sea split… I want to see God save a rebellious people again, not for their sake but his own name sake. Psalm 106:7-9 Deliverance on a world wide stage before all the nations as foretold! Ezekiel 39:27. THAT HAS NOT HAPPENED YET IN MY VIEW AND I BELIEVE THAT TO BE A FACT… The apostles believed this too, see Acts 1:6 / That is how I see this “movie” playing out. It is only my opinion based on my personal observation. By the way… I never have been to good at figuring out the ending of movies but my wife is awesome! I always ask her not to ruin it for me 😉 I believe God wants this “movie” to have a great end showing what a LOVING God he really is. Way beyond what we as humans are capable of understanding. GOD IS LOVE… 1 John 4:8 Now I’m going to go cook some pop-corn :)

        Your brother in Christ,


  24. JWB says:


    1. New Covenant made with disciples of Jesus who will one day be with Christ in “the kingdom of [the] Father”. (Matthew 26:26-30)

    2. Jesus dies and signals the end of the Old Covenant. (Colossians 2:13-14).

    3. For a while both covenants appear to exist side by side. On the one hand, the New Covenant enters its beginning phase with preparations made to bring in those who will take on the dual roles of kings and priest with Christ. On the other hand, the Old Covenant enters the final phase as the process of accounting begins. “In his saying ‘a new [covenant]’ he has made the former one obsolete. Now that which is made obsolete and growing old is near to vanishing away.” (Hebrews 8:13)

    4. A “shaking” takes place (compare Hebrews 12:25-29).

    5. According to the requirements of the Old Covenant, justice is meted out to “this generation” (Matthew 23:34-36) on account of the tremendous collective bloodguilt accrued by the nation of Israel, and Jerusalem is completely destroyed. Gone is the Old Covenant as represented by its system of worship. This thing that was “made” or of an earthly nature that can be “shaken” (Hebrews 12:27) is removed.

    5. That which cannot be “shaken” (verse 28) stays intact (verse 27). The New Covenant stands alone. The old Law Covenant ‘contract’ between Israel and God is now obsolete. Isreal can no longer appeal to God on the basis of a special relationship, since he has effectively divorced her. He has also fulfilled all of the promises made to Abraham in connection with Israel (Jacob’s descendants).


  25. andrew says:

    Nice recap JWB of the two covenants. As you say in point 5 Israel no longer is God’s “wife”. Old Jerusalem was judged as a harlot. The new bride of course is New Jerusalem, making it impossible to take the old wife back.


  26. greybeard says:

    My X-wife ended up keeping the house I built her and my new wife got to move into a awesome house by the beach with me. Why is it impossible for God to take the old wife back if all things are possible with him? Where does it say he cannot take her back in scripture? He did it over and over… and still does it… ANY JEW who repents right now and accepts Christ can be received by him, is that not true? What if by rendering this judgement we close the door on ourselves? Has the heavenly calling closed? YES or NO? That is a simple question and I believe it deserves an answer. If the door has been closed to ISREAL and they cannot except Christ now, that is a shock to me… Where is the proof of that?

    WHEN was Ezekiel 39:21-39 fulfilled? I believe that deserves an answer too. Again, the nations have no idea who “spiritual Israel” is. WE do but THEY do not.

    Personally, I fear closing the door to heaven on anyone. Especially the JEWS. What did Christ say about that at Matthew 23:13?


    • andrew says:

      I’m not sure why you are misunderstanding greybeard. Neither JWB nor myself are saying that if a Jew repents and accepts Christ he won’t be received. Greybeard, there is absolutely no difference between a Jew living in Israel, an American, an aborigine from Australia, or from anywhere else. Please note:

      Romans 10:12 ” for there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, since the same Lord of all is rich to all who call on Him. 13 For everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

      Galatians 3:28 “There is no Jew or Greek, slave or free, male or female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus”

      This is a basic teaching of the NT and is pervasive especially in Paul’s writings. I’m sure you accept that the Old Covenant has ended. What is the basis then to think that God will again favor one human over another just because of what nationality they are? Is it not clear that God is not partial?

      Jews just like everyone else can come under the New Covenant and be forgiven of their sins. But fleshly Israel is no longer God’s special possession. God’s special possession is spiritual Israel. Spiritual Israel is the bride of Christ. For fleshly Israel to be taken back as a wife he would have to divorce spiritual Israel. Spiritual Israel contains many fleshly Jews, and no one has the heavenly kingdom shut to them.


      • greybeard says:

        THANK YOU Brother Andrew!

        You made my point for me. I am not misunderstanding you. As a matter of fact, I was thinking about quoting Romans 10:12 to you. I am glad you quoted it and to hear that you do in fact believe the door is still open to ALL of Israel. Maybe you are starting to understand me 😉

        You said, “Old Jerusalem was judged as a harlot. The new bride of course is New Jerusalem, making it impossible to take the old wife back.”

        My point is God did partially take them back already and can take all of them back if he so chooses into the new covenant. According to Romans 11:32 and many other unfulfilled scriptures I believe that WILL happen. To me, your statement that it is “impossible to take the old wife back” is totally wrong. God can do whatever he wants and nothing is impossible for him.

        With all due respect brother… Why are you misunderstanding “that a dulling of sensibilities (or hardening as other Bibles put it) has happened in part to Israel until the full number of people of the nations has come in”? Why cant you see that the door is still open to the nations thus Israel’s heart remains hardened? God does not open their eyes until the Gentile times are over. The Gentiles are still ruling this planet.

        If less than 100 years would pass before the real END of this system then why did Paul mention one day to Jehovah is like a thousand years?

        Consider 2 Peter 3:8-13, “However, let this one fact not be escaping YOUR notice, beloved ones, that one day is with Jehovah as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day. Jehovah is not slow respecting his promise, as some people consider slowness, but he is patient with YOU because he does not desire any to be destroyed but desires all to attain to repentance. Yet Jehovah’s day will come as a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a hissing noise, but the elements being intensely hot will be dissolved, and earth and the works in it will be discovered. Since all these things are thus to be dissolved, what sort of persons ought YOU to be in holy acts of conduct and deeds of godly devotion, awaiting and keeping close in mind the presence of the day of Jehovah, through which [the] heavens being on fire will be dissolved and [the] elements being intensely hot will melt! But there are new heavens and a new earth that we are awaiting according to his promise, and in these righteousness is to dwell.”

        This has not happened yet. We are NOT living in a “new earth” were “righteousness is to dwell”. Satan and his demons are alive and well and still control this planet. Anyone can see that is true.

        If God wants to make a third or fourth covenant with whoever… he can do it. If he wants to take a wife back it is not “impossible” for him as you said and I hope you admit that. If he wants to save the “hardened” nation of Israel “for his own name sake” before all the nations, he can and WILL do it. I think he wants to just like he wanted to in the days of Moses. I do not think God has changed or his love for these people has ended.

        Just because I do not agree with you does not mean I don’t understand you. It only means we disagree. I asked you why you don’t understand so you understand how that question feels. This is not a case of not understanding. It is a case of different views that MANY Bible scholars smarter than the both of us disagree on.

        I believe this subject is warn out now and we need to move on as brothers,
        I love you very much brother Andrew,
        Your brother in Christ,


  27. JWB says:

    Dear Greybeard,

    You seem to have a great desire for the Jews to be included in God’s future plans as a people or nation. I wonder, what is the reason for this? Are they not members of the human race for which Christ also died? They are not the only ones God loves. Peter said (despite Jewish prejudices of the time): “I perceive that God is not partial, but in every nation the man that fears him and works righteousness is acceptable to him.” (Acts 10:34, 35).

    My view is that God really did show special consideration for Israel by inviting them FIRST to the “wedding feast” (Matthew 22:1-14).

    John the Baptist was sent ahead of Jesus, telling the Jews to repent because THE KINGDOM OF THE HEAVENS HAD DRAWN NEAR. John warned them that “the axe is already at the root of the trees” and that they needed to prepare themselves accordingly. They should have accepted the one whom John was heralding, they should have prepared themselves for the coming Kingdom of the heavens.

    Jesus own ministry was confined to the Jewish nation for he said, “I was not sent forth to any but to the lost sheep of the house of Israel” (Matthew 15:23-24). What was his message? The same as John’s: “Repent, you people, for THE KINGDOM OF THE HEAVENS HAS DRAWN NEAR” (Matthew 4:16, 17).

    When Jesus sent out the twelve apostles on a special mission without him, he expressly told them, “Do not go off into the road of the nations, and do not enter into a Samaritan city; but, instead, go continually to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” (Matthew 10:5, 6). What was there message? “THE KINGDOM OF THE HEAVENS HAS DRAWN NEAR.” (verse 7)

    The Jews were witnessed to for over forty years until the removal of the old earthly kingdom. They had ample opportunity as a nation to respond to the message. But they had to respond within GOD’S TIMETABLE. If they did not respond in time, they had only themselves to blame when the door was shut. They also had themselves to blame for the fact that people of the nations took some of the places which should have been theirs. If only they had responded in time. God’s plan, his timetable, his purpose, was not going to wait for them. In the end, “the king grew wrathful, and sent his armies and destroyed those murderers and burned their city.” The nation of Israel as an entity, invited first by God to the “marriage feast” were found to be “not worthy”, which meant that others on “the roads leading out of the city” (gentiles) took their place (Matthew 22:7-9; Romans 11:19, 20).

    I think your reference to the scribes and Pharisees hindering their fellow countrymen from getting into the kingdom of the heavens is very apt here (Matthew 23:13). Because of the culpability of them and people like them, Jerusalem would be left desolate.

    I don’t believe that the door closing on the “marriage feast” means that the Jews were no longer able to have the ransom applied to them, but rather the invitation to become part of the kingdom of the heavens as co-rulers with Christ ran out. In my view that kingdom had to start with ‘the elect’ sealed. To me it does not seem logical that nearly two thousand years would have past and STILL the selection of ‘kings and priests’ would be going on. I don’t see how not being one of those ‘kings and priests’ means not being able to have God’s favour. What would their priestly services accomplish? They would be raised to “incorruption” (1 Corinthians 15:50-57) so it could not benefit them. So who could possibly benefit from their priestly services? Who would they be ruling over as kings?

    You’ve brought up Ezekiel 39:21-39 a few times now. I would like to give some study time to those scriptures. If I think there is anything to add from a personal view of those scriptures, I’ll write something on the subject at a later date.

    Your brother,


    • greybeard says:

      Dear brother JWB,

      As far as your question:

      “You seem to have a great desire for the Jews to be included in God’s future plans as a people or nation. I wonder, what is the reason for this?”

      Why is it that you do not have this desire too??? I want to see them except Christ as a nation and repent before all the nations. Is that wrong of me? Isn’t this what God wants to see too? My reason is I feel the same way about them as God does, I still love them. I find this question unbelievable… Maybe you miss wrote it… I hope…

      Then you said, ” They are not the only ones God loves.”

      Did I ever say such a thing? We all know this don’t we?

      Then you said, “I don’t believe that the door closing on the “marriage feast” means that the Jews were no longer able to have the ransom applied to them, but rather the invitation to become part of the kingdom of the heavens as co-rulers with Christ ran out. In my view that kingdom had to start with ‘the elect’ sealed.”

      You can believe whatever you want to believe but there is no way for you to prove this belief from scripture.

      Personally I believe the teachers of full Preterism (not that you are, but I believe they have influenced you) have done much to close the eyes of many to the present world conditions and how close we are to God saving modern day Israel before all the nation for HIS NAME SAKE like he did in Moses day. He said he would do it again and he hasn’t done it yet. Did he glorify “spiritual Israel” before all the nations in the first century?

      2 Peter 3:4, Luke 17:23, Matthew 24:26-27

      For me brother… enough has been said on this subject,
      With Christian love,


  28. JWB says:

    Sorry Brother Greybeard, I have just read your latest post. I think you are right, we may have reached an impasse. So I will no longer be posting comments to this article. No doubt some of the things discussed here will be brought up in the future elsewhere and there will be opportunity to address those, if we feel inclined, as and when.


    • greybeard says:

      I am sorry too brother JWB if in anyway I offended either of you. We just view things differently that is all. I was only wrong once in my life, I thought I was wrong, but it turned out I was right… Just kidding 😉

      Life is to short, we need to laugh a little and not take ourselves to seriously. I know I need to work on that. Ecclesiastes 7:16


  29. JWB says:

    Dear Greybeard, I would like to thank you Andrew and JJ, along with others here with whom I have had various discussions. I wish to give a last general answer to what you have brought up in your other post. I promise you this will be the last.

    I have spent a lot of time in both individual study on various Bible topics and examination of a number of beliefs I was taught as I grew up. As a result I am now able to view a lot of things differently and this has helped me to release the grip of the WTS on my mind and life. Although I had a period where I left the subject of the WTS and was trying to ‘move on’, just over a year ago a family situation brought me face to face again with the WTS and again got me involved with research. That research led me to what I considered was the final release from the WTS. Although I have read various views, including the ‘preterist’ view, I would say that instead of being influenced, as you put it, I accepted that there was much to what had been put forward, and it seemed to make sense to me, although I do not believe all things prophesied have taken place nor do I think that I have found the complete answer to the matter of ‘the parousia’ and related subjects. I would also like to say that I wish ALL people, regardless of race, a release from the misery that life at this present time can bring. However, until restoration is complete and life in perfection is possible we have to live our lives according to what presents us from day to day. I believe that life must be enjoyed NOW as best it can be, using Christian principles to guide us and to help others as and when we can.

    Lately, I’ve been thinking that I would like to get back to how I was before the previously mentioned family situation happened. I have tried in life to find a positive out of a negative experience if possible. Although the said situation caused me some grief, I think the research and meditation that came out of it has benefited me, and I hope there may be some things that have/will benefit others. It was never my intention to start getting involved in debates over Bible teaching, but it seems this has happened. Therefore, in view of this and my desire now to really try to ‘move on’ and move away from things that remind me of the JW way of life and the bad memories it brings, I will now be bidding you all farewell. I will no longer be posting here.

    I wish you a happy and fulfilling life. To those who still have family in the organization and wondering what to do I say, just love them and do all that you can to let them know that you are there for them. Love is the key, it always has been and it always will be. So I leave you with these verses from 1 Corinthians chapter 13:4-8 (NWT), verses that have always lifted my spirits:

    “Love is long-suffering and kind. Love is not jealous, it does not brag, does not get puffed up, does not behave indecently, does not look for its own interests, does not become provoked. It does not keep account of the injury. It does not rejoice over unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth. It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. LOVE NEVER FAILS.”



    • greybeard says:

      Dear brother JWB,

      I just read your post. I really do feel terrible about you leaving this web site JWB. You have been a wonderful contributer and I do respect you very much. I also do believe that many prophecies have been fulfilled in the first century as you and Andrew do. I can’t help but feel I have offended you causing you to leave. I am asking you to please reconsider and forgive me for my arrogance. Sometimes I do type before I speak. I do blog on other topics and web sites that have nothing to do with religion. I always have my wife proof read them. She finds many mistakes and crazy remarks at times and I wonder how I get along without her going over my posts on here. I can’t ask her to read these posts. Sometimes JJ and Andrew will correct me and I need that. I happen to be a very emotional person and write from my heart. If I make a mistake, and I make many, I do try to correct it as soon as possible. You and Andrew have presented your view quite well on this topic and I do realize that you very well could be right and my opinion could be wrong. I wasn’t “only wrong one time in my life”… I make mistakes everyday and that is very clear on this web site. Out of all the writers on this web site I am the least capable in my opinion and feel like I shouldn’t even be writing. Your posts are way better than mine. I would rather you stay here and I leave if needed for you to stick around. Believe me brother, I have gotten a lot out of your posts. You are a wise person and I appreciate all of your study and efforts.

      I am very sorry for any words I have written here on this thread that I shouldn’t have. Please forgive me and stick around. We don’t have many brothers like you here.

      With love,


  30. John S. says:

    I have read the article Andrew wrote and find it factual and in harmony with Paul,Jesus,and Peter’s comments.The New Covenant has to do with the Israel of God.There are those who,because of Russell’s teachings that 1874 would see a dramatic reversal of favor toward natural Israel,as also Russell stated1874 would be the end of 6000 years of man’s existence,and the beginning of the Millenial reign of Christ.No matter how you slice or dice it,Jesus said,”Wisdom is proved righteous by all its children”. There is absolutely no proof for a double prophecy,…don’t see it, sorry.(And I have my copy of ‘The Time is at Hand’,and have read the material,ppgs.209-211)And what proof is there that we have been in the marvelous Millenial rule of the peaceful Kingdom of God-Millenium since 1874? And also,if we are seeing God’s blessing on the natural nation of Israel since 1874,Why were 6 million of them slaughtered 50 years ago? But it is apparent that many in the Bible Student beliefs who are still closely following Russell,not the New Covenant Christian beliefs want to blind their eyes to the facts.That is their prerogative,and they can believe it,if they want to.Although a prominent pastor in their group is actively trying to stop the efforts of the Southern Baptists who have been instrumental in bringing almost 400,000 Jews to Christianity.This man(with much vocal support from the Bible Students) is trying to stop this Christian group from preaching the gospel to the natural Jews.In other words,he’s fighting the direct work Christ himself died for and 2000 years of Christian martyrdom.I ask the Bible Students ,”Whose side are you on?” I watch Isreal’s progress closely,and it seems a war is inevitable.Yet Christians have their promises and work assignment to preach the Kingdom of heaven.This Zionism you all are preaching and digging up out of scripture is not any of Christianity’s business.Leave it to God and get on with New Covernant Christian directives.And quit fighting against Christian evangelism toward Jews,is a warning to the New Brunswick Bible Students.You’re fighting against Christ’s interest now.


  31. humbleman says:

    John s. is it Christs interest that the Jews worship a trinity God? or would it be Christ interest to worship the only true God Jehovah. ?

    the bible students preach Christ to the Jews. but they also let them know there deliverance is soon. bro rawson the brother i’m sure your referring too. tells the Jews not to put faith in the false God the baptists are preaching. where do you stand on this?


  32. Willie says:

    To whom it may concern: God has NOT fulfilled all His promises to Abraham. Heb. 11:13 says, “These [Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Sara] all died in faith, NOT HAVING RECEIVED THE PROMISES, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.” All the families of the earth have not yet been blessed by Abraham’s seed, for “the sands of the sea,” while inclusive of all who inherit life on planet Earth, will also include the Israelites who will form the nucleus of the Kingdom in its beginning with the holy remnant which is spared in Jacob’s trouble (Jer. 30:7; Zeph. 3:13-20; Rom. 9:27).
    The “stars of heaven” promise has yet to be fulfilled by the completion of the Bride of Christ. Additionally–the Bride of Christ does NOT marry Jehovah God–they marry Jesus, the Son of God.
    God WILL re-marry his chosen people, Israel, as we read in Hosea 2:14-23. Verses 19 and 20 say, “And I will betroth thee unto me FOR EVER; yea, I will betroth thee unto me in righteousness, and in judgment, and in lovingkindness, and in mercies. I will even betroth thee unto me in faithfulness: and thou shalt know the LORD.” “Then said the LORD unto me, Go yet, love a woman beloved of her friend, yet an adultress, according to THE LOVE OF THE LORD TOWARD THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL, who look to other gods, and love flagons of wine” (Hosea 3:1). Hosea was told to marry a woman who would be beloved by him but who would prove to be unfaithful in order to represent God’s situation with the children of Israel, who also proved to be unfaithful. God WILL remarry the Israelites, his chosen people, when the conditions listed in verses 19 and 20 above are met in the Kingdom on earth (Matt. 6:10).
    I believe that the Judgment Day is the same as the Millinnial Day and that “JUDGMENT MUST BEGIN AT THE HOUSE OF GOD” (I Pet. 4:17)–the true church first when the Bride is complete, and the false Church secondly with the fall of Babylon. I DO NOT believe that Christ will reign until the Church is completed to reign WITH him after the marriage. This is a principle that Bro. Russell DID TEACH and that most Bible Students seem to ignore. In 1912 the question was asked “Is it scriptural to say that the glorified members of the Church have reigned at any time up to the present” Pastor Russell answered, “No! They have NOT reigned at any time.” Psalms 149:7-9 reads, “To execute vengeance upon the heathen, To bind their kings with chains, and their nobles with fetters of iron, To execute upon them the judgment written; THIS HONOR HAVE ALL HIS SAINTS. Praise ye the LORD.”
    Bro. Russell was asked in 1911, “Should we understand that Satan was bound at the beginning of the seventh thousand-year period, namely, in 1874? or should we expect that he will be bound in 1915, the end of the Times of the Gentiles?” Bro. Russell replied, “Well, if Satan personally is bound, there are a good many that have his spirit who are still loose–in Winnipeg, Brooklyn and other places. I think I would not lay too much stress on Satan’s having been bound in 1874. … We have plenty of evidence of the reign of sin going on, whether Satan has suffered any personal defeat or not; I doubt if anybody else knows.” On the following page (624) in “What Pastor Russell Said” we read this little paragraph, “It will not at all surprise me if these evil spirits have much more power in the near future, but we need have no fear, for ‘greater is he that is for us than all that be against us.'” On page 118 of the same book we see where Pastor Russell said this: “With His reign will begin the reign of righteousness, for the Scriptures intimate that sin will be suppressed promptly. Nothing shall hurt, or offend, or destroy in all God’s holy Kingdom. (Isa. 11:9.) Nothing will be allowed to do so.”
    As for the New Covenant, Rom. 11:26,27 reads, “And so ALL ISRAEL SHALL be saved: as it is written, There SHALL come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I SHALL take away their sins.” Heb. 8:8-11 reads, “For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I WILL make a new covenant with THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL and with THE HOUSE OF JUDAH: Not according to the covenant that I made with THEIR FATHERS in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not saith the Lord. For this is the covenant that I WILL make with the HOUSE OF ISRAEL after those days, saith the Lord; I WILL put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts; and I WILL be to them a God, and they SHALL be to me a people; And they SHALL not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord; for all SHALL know me, from the least to the greatest.” Please observe that the apostles are not mentioned as being the RECIPIENTS of the New Covenant neither has the New Covenant been implemented yet as you will notice that SHALL and WILL are both indicitive of FUTURE tense. The old Law Covenant is still in effect for the natural Jew until the beginning of the Kingdom when the New Covenant begins. The apostles and all spirit-begotten individuals–including some Jews–are under the Sarah (Gal. 4:24) or Grace Covenant (Eph. 2:8). [All CAPITAL EMPHASIS is mine.]


    • greybeard says:

      Thank you Willie,

      I am not debating this issue and realize I have much to learn on these matters. I just have my gut feelings based on what I have gathered up to now in my life time…

      You make some very good points Willie. I don’t know how I missed this point you made:

      “the Bride of Christ does NOT marry Jehovah God–they marry Jesus, the Son of God. God WILL re-marry his chosen people, Israel, as we read in Hosea 2:14-23.”

      That is huge in my opinion. Either we are going to have two marriages or Jesus actually is Jehovah. I see clearly that Jesus is NOT Jehovah. So then, WHO is Jehovah going to remarry?

      Hosea 2:16 And it must occur in that day,’ is the utterance of Jehovah, ‘that you will call [me] My husband, and you will no longer call me My owner.’ NWT

      VERY interesting point! I hope and I pray that God/YHWH does re-marry Israel and save them again before all the nations as he has promised. Not for their name sake but his own like he did in Moses day. It would be a great thing for all the world to see Israel turn to Christ.

      The stage is set, we may find out sooner than we think… one way or the other, let Gods will be done!


    • Willie,

      Enjoyed your post. Thanks for taking the time.



  33. Ruth says:

    John s
    Hi John. did you get what I sent you through my email about the bride of Christ.

    Willie may like to have a look also.
    A very different yet I feel very easy not a complicated part of the scriptures. Far to simple for some the way it is explained.


  34. Ruth says:

    grey beard.
    I so love you very fine heart. Your generosity
    of not being ashamed to yield to your mistakes>”
    like we all suffer with of cause” We all put out foot in our mouths.
    If we all Had the fine heart you do! the christian brotherhood would flourish with Christs love..
    Sister Ruth


  35. humbleman says:

    brother Greybeard what is also interesting from scripture is when all these things take place. if you notice the scriptures refer to IN THAT DAY if you read the full chapter of Zechariah 14 you will notice in that day Armageddon happens and in that day Jehovah becomes king over all the earth and in that day the nations go up to Jerusalem to worship Jehovah. Zechariah 12 v 10 we are still in that day when the Jews accept Christ. what this has helped me to appreciate is Jehovahs day is not just Armageddon . but his day is a 1000 years long. and all these events including Armageddon happen inside that day. your bro humbleman


    • Very interesting Humbleman.


      brother Greybeard what is also interesting from scripture is when all these things take place. if you notice the scriptures refer to IN THAT DAY if you read the full chapter of Zechariah 14 you will notice in that day Armageddon happens and in that day Jehovah becomes king over all the earth and in that day the nations go up toJerusalemto worship Jehovah. Zechariah 12 v 10 we are still in that day when the Jews accept Christ. what this has helped me to appreciate is Jehovahs day is not just Armageddon . but his day is a 1000 years long. and all these events including Armageddon happen inside that day. your bro humbleman


  36. John S. says:

    Yes,sister Ruth,I got that web address,and looked at it with some interest,as I saw the subject was peculiar,and the debate took center stage in several persons’ interest there for months.Like I said,I seem to be missing the import of what these Christians were arguing about.Like this site.Now folks are arguing about natural Israel still being the fulfillment of end-time prophecies that have already been applied in the first century by the apostles to Christians of the New Covenant.Two points I will make for the conversation.No.1-The book of Revelation ch.13,14 both discuss events concerning the Wild Beast and it’s image putting persons under compulsion to worship it and the image to the first beast whose one head got a death stroke,yet was healed.I understand that at this time,Christ’s brothers on earth;born-again Christians all,are going to go thru a fiery trial at the hands of these beasts and Satan’s seed.There are 2.5 BILLION professed ,believing Christians,not just a few of us wimpy in number J.W.’s and Bible Students.Their faith is going to be tested.As far as they are concerned,they believe they are in that New Covenant just as much as we( the oh so enlightened ones,because we don’t believe in the trinity).All the Christians are foretold to be persecuted.I guess I will crow alittle here.I spent 4 years going to churches of all different faiths,worshipping God and Christ shoulder to shoulder from the Florida Keys to Main.I have seen the sincerity ans GOOD SPIRIT in most all of these Christian churches.They supply a very STABLE worship platform for their flocks,and as a rule were not engaged in a lot of bickering over major doctrines,as they believed all Christians were under the blood of Christ and are to receive the same treatment and receive the heavenly reward.Simple.They sing praises to the Father,and son,and sometimes get them mixed up,(especially when they pray to the Father ,then switch to the son and then at the end of their prayer,say,”in the name of your son…”)But on the whole overview,although Witnesses and Bible Students are quick to dismiss these BILLIONS as not worthy of a serious consideration or even a little merit as to knowledge or eligibility in the Church of the Firsborn,enrolled in the heavens,I say before writing off billions of people to ignorance and exclusion from the Kingdom inheritance,you should think;Jehovah is judging hearts,not minds.These ones have full faith in Christ and the Kingdom promises,and look to the skies every day for their Lord’s return.They sing loudly to Jesus and the Father with arms and hearts wide open in church twice a week,and give most the time 1000’s of dollars of their hard-earned money to the cause as they understand it.So their churches have multiplied and grew till Christianity is the world’s major religion.Jesus clearly prophecies the big showdown before Armagedon will be Christian verses the world under the control of the beasts,and being pressured and persecuted and killed for not taking the mark,but “on the basis of my name”.(Jesus”,not “Jew”).Any of these so called ‘ignorant’Christians(just because of the seeming inconsistency of definition of God’s exact identity,could tell you that its the Christians that are going to be persecuted and tried before Armagedon in the final test,and then Christ comes in and saves them,and takes them to their reward in heaven.They read their Bibles too. They also see something that’s obvious to me;If God was going to protect the Jews and really save them as a witness to his pure love for the seed of Abraham,he surely would have never allowed over 6 million of them to be tortured and murdered 55 years ago.Really brothers,why get sidetracked by this Zionism political fever,taking sides with Jews and Americans in a bloodbath that is very likely to occur shortly against the Arab nations,and work up a similiar hatred against them as they continue to bomb and maybe nuke the Christian infedel. This is just another attempt by Satan to ,like Peter draw out a sword and cut somebody’s ears off. Put down that star of David flag,I say and put on the peaceful robes of blood cleansed righteousness.Be Christians and let those Jewish unbelievers go on with their bloody war.


  37. John S. says:

    As a way of reply,to Humbleman about this Bible Student pastor trying to stop Christians from converting Jews; simply because they believe the trinity doctrine? No,but because he wants them to get into a war with Arab nations,slaughter maybe millions of them,and become the dominant power in the area and start the world back to viewing the Jews as God’s chosen people,thus fulfilling the BIBLE STUDENTS interpretation of Old Testament prophecies,isn’t that more like it? This information ,that is about the Christian Zionism is a main thrust of B.S. evangelism,not just a side topic of interest.I studied the Bible with them for 6 months,yet couldn’t swallow all Russell’s many,many interpretations,although in the forward to his 2nd book,’The Time is at Hand’,out of a mock humility he stated,”Dealing with subjects so difficult that they were rarely touched by others,it is not to be considered strange if some of the suggestions made in this volume have not been fulfilled with absolute accuracy to the very letter.But the author,the publisher and thousands of readers of this Volome are not ashamed of its presentations and are still handing it forth to all who will have an interest in Bible Study-AS MOST INTERESTING AND HELPFUL in an understanding of the Lord’s word.” As I didn’t find the interpretations handed forth as interesting or helpful,but more like speculations of a man who needed to get some more professional feedback from possibly true Bible scholars and other anointed Christians instead of proudly setting himself up as the ‘Great White Angelic Messenger’ to mankind,and his movement as THE anointed church,I was politely and firmly asked to limit my conversation on the prominent Bible Student website,as I was not “accepting the counsel from the scriptures”, say less or nothing and don’t express any more doubts about Russellism in other words.This is too much.At first we are welcome,but of course dogma raises its ugly head.As far as the trinity teaching about the Father,Son and Holy Spirit being one?The lines will continue to blur for people,even on this site which is occurring now.Friends we have to realize that our readers are sensitive to all the friction.Whether Bible Students, Trinitarians ,Great Crowders,Heaven Bounders,categorically,we are all still Christians,and we must ‘move over’ and make some room for Everybody,here ,that seems to be the main theme.At first it was J.W.’s struggling to break free,now many want to get on and prove their point.But the point is freedom to believe and practice Christianity as the spirit is leading us.The war of words is self-defeating,and I am one of the worst to get into it myself.What say you all?


    • Hi John S,

      You said, “No,but because he wants them to get into a war with Arab nations,slaughter maybe millions of them,and become the dominant power in the area and start the world back to viewing the Jews as God’s chosen people,thus fulfilling the BIBLE STUDENTS interpretation of Old Testament prophecies,isn’t that more like it?”

      You don’t really believe this do you? Are you really saying that this was the basis for Russell’s belief’s relating to Israel?

      You said, “although in the forward to his 2nd book,’The Time is at Hand’,out of a mock humility he stated,”

      Are you saying that Russell wasn’t a humble man when stating “out of mock humility”? If so, I’m not sure you’re really in a position to judge a man whom you never met and who incidentally died almost 100 years ago. The written word doesn’t convey many aspects of someone’s personality. If I were judged by the way I write I’d be in trouble because so much doesn’t come through. From the account’s I’ve read, people who knew him say just the opposite. As with any of us though, if you look hard enough you’ll discover that we’re all imperfect, why should Russell be an exception?

      You said, “As I didn’t find the interpretations handed forth as interesting or helpful,but more like speculations of a man who needed to get some more professional feedback from possibly true Bible scholars”

      Back in the 1870’s through 1916 most bible scholars put forth the Trinity, Immortality of the Soul, Hell Fire, etc. as truth. Are these the one’s he should have consulted for professional feedback? Who were the true bible scholars of his time, any names come to mind? Didn’t he get feedback from Barbour, Storrs, Stetson, Wendell, Seiss and others. Didn’t these ones help shape his views? What other professionals of his day do you think he should have sought advise from?

      You said, “instead of proudly setting himself up as the ‘Great White Angelic Messenger’ to mankind”

      Now this is a very judgmental statement. Now in addition to not being humble he was proud and set himself up as the ‘Great White Angelic Messenger’ to mankind. Please refer again to my comment above regarding the charge that Russell lacked humility and apply it here. Now your sounding as if you have an axe to grind.

      You said, “I was politely and firmly asked to limit my conversation on the prominent Bible Student website,as I was not “accepting the counsel from the scriptures”, say less or nothing and don’t express any more doubts about Russellism in other words.”

      The website was I encourage anyone that wants to, to go over there and read the interchanges with John S, Peter K and others and see for yourself. Read it all, not just the quote provided above. You’ll see that there is always two sides to a story.

      John, I have enjoyed reading your posts on this site but the tone of this post was obvious and full of vitriol, at least to me.



      • greybeard says:

        In My opinion… and I am not a “Bible Student” as in those who go by Russell’s teachings…

        There was a huge difference between Rutherford and Russell just like there is between JW’s and Bible students. Rutherford took control with an iron fist and all had to agree with him. Russell was not like that. JW’s control with an iron fist and Bible students are not like that. You can be a Bible Student and hold your own views even if they differ from others. I have been to a few Bible Student conventions and the brothers always use the words “in my opinion.” I really like that. I find that I do agree with much of what they teach and I do feel at home in their groups. We should be careful about making judgmental remarks an this site. We are all human. Russell did what he thought was right. Ray Franz wrote that he had much respect for the governing Body of JW’s and felt they believed they were doing what was right.

        Is it not better to find the good in others and talk about that? I know I need to improve much in this area too…


        • Greybeard said, “Is it not better to find the good in others and talk about that? I know I need to improve much in this area too…”

          An excellent reminder! Thank you



          • greybeard says:

            Ray Franz was a good example. He was able to examine the organization without putting down any members of it. I thought he was very loving. I tend to get upset with the men on the governing body… I learned something from the example Ray set in his books. There are ways to say things and make a point without attacking the person personally. Sometimes it’s a fine line.


  38. John S. says:

    Dennis,I guess I do have a gripe ,after getting my hopes up that the Chicago Bible Student site was really promoting pure Bible truth,I came to see after reading soooooooooo much of Russell’s work that he really was so far off from truth in so many ares.Have you read his explanations of the Revelation? The quote I made on ‘The Time is at Hand’ book(No.2 of Studies in the Scriptures)Here are a couple of the statements that Russell admitted “weren’t fulfilled to the very letter”;the 1000 year Millenial Rule of Christ began in 1873(still held to today by many of his followers;1874) and what proof were we to see that we were in the Millenium? “The sewing machine, machinery and tools,workshop,store,factory and home conveniences in abundance and cheap…shortening the hours of labor,and doing away with the”sweat of the face”,which the Bible declares to be identified with the curse.” He taught we were then in the Great Tribulation(that was in 1916) But the one that I really sympathize with,yet want to point out to our readers here;He taught his little band of followers would be caught up to the Lord in the fall of 1914.And people were psyched up to experience the rapture at that point.Here is his humble attitude when it didn’t happen.”The author acknowledges(not I confess)that in this book he presents the thought that the Lord’s saints might expect to be with Him in glory at the ending of the Gentile Times.This was a natural mistake to fall into,but the Lord overruled it for the blessing of his people,The thought that the church would all be gathered to glory before August,1914,certainly DID HAVE A VERY STIMULATING AND SANCTIFYING EFFECT UPON THOUSANDS,ALL OF WHOM CAN ACCORDINGLY PRAISE THE LORD-EVEN FOR THE MISTAKE.” Oh doesn’t this remind those of us that were commanded to pioneer,or we were sinners(I was there,yes C.O.s ordered us single brthers to not get married and go out and preach 100 hours a month.)And to go out and explain to all the world that 1914 was the birth of God’s Kingdom,and only a generation of time existed before the end would come.And that according to “Bible chronology”the Millenium would begin in the fall of 1975(The Witnesses’ reworked Russell spin-off).Of course this”Good News” we were preaching fell flat on its face,and that was the beginning of the seeds sown,growing into this “Great Apostasy” we are happily engaged in presently.One last quote about his viewpoint of his own teaching is,from page 20,volume 2,”So,too,it is,at the end of this age.Truth here,as there,seperates the earnest and humble and leads them forward into the knowledge now due to such,and strengthens and enlightens them,that they might not stumble with the mass of nominal Christians;while the lukewarm and the self-satisfied reject the truths here due,BECAUSE BLINDED BY THEIR OWN IMPROPER CONDITION OF HEART.Hence they WILL BE REJECTEDby the Lord as unworthy of becoming his bride.”Here too we see the ‘humble’ brother Russell setting the tone for his magazine the Watchtower,which today doesn’t hesitate to pronounce judgement on “nominal Christianity” with great flourish.All ‘Strugglers’ reading on this site will agree I’m sure that this same judgemental tone manifested early on by the ‘editor’ then is exactly what’s put forth as the spirit of present day.Watchtower philosophy.Allow me to wind up my windy,yet true,synapsis of Russell’s icing on the cake philosophy;that is ,that the Jews would rise again as God’s chosen people-without the benefit or belief in any of the dear Son of God’s terrible sacrificial experiences,oh no..,although there are MULTITUDES of scripture,absolutely no need to quote any,to the effect that the only way to receive God’s blessing is ,you know..accept His provided means of salvation.But somehow,we have those who believe in Russell’s 100 plus year old philosophies,as they run counter to New Testament teachings,and will want to drag you deeper and deeper into this “Christian Zionism”.Remember Jesus’warning,”My kingdom is no part of this world”.Do I have an ax to grind?I will gladly refrain from commenting on this sight if itstarts to recognize Jewish political agenda today as being a divinely -backed and blessed institution,and supports the seemingly impending slaughter as some sharing Russell’s teachings appear to be doing.


    • greybeard says:

      Dear brother John S,

      This web site does not back up any particular doctrine or belief except Christ is the way, truth and the life. (John 14:6) The expressed view on this web site are the opinions of each writer and we do not feel the need to agree on all details of “truth” as the Watchtower demands their followers do. The governing body does not agree an all points and Ray Franz (former member of the governing body of Jehovah’s Witnesses) books made that clear.

      It is our goal not to judge or condemn others with our words and tone. That is easier said than done. If some believe that fleshly Israel will eventually except Christ as a nation, what is wrong with that? Is that not a good thing to hope for? Will not all the nations bow before Christ our king eventually? (Psalms 72:11)

      Yes Russell did make many mistakes but who has not? What good did he do? I can’t help but believe I owe a little bit of credit to his efforts. I don’t believe the trinity or in hell fire… Is that not a good thing? JW’s taught many good truths too. We shouldn’t throw the baby out with the bath water. So why decide to leave others when we hit head to head on different subjects because we cannot agree? Why demand that our view is the correct view? Who has the right heart condition? The one who stays with his brothers or the one who leaves?

      We all have been affected by the untruths that we have been taught by others. I have not left my brothers of the Watchtower, they DFed me. I got reinstated and then I left the organization and stopped becoming a slave to men. (1 Corinthians 7:23) I still try to keep a relationship with my family and brothers. I try to make it a point to never cut anyone off. I do not believe Jesus ever taught us to do that. Treating a person as a “man of the nations” is not the same as walking away and never speaking a word to them again.

      We are to be kind to men of the nations and our neighbors loving our enemies. Even more so to our brothers. (Ga. 6:10) When we grind our ax we need to keep in mind where the sparks fly and always wear our safety glasses. Others might not be wearing their safety glasses and a spark could blind them. That was why when I attended metal shop in High School, it was a rule that everyone wear their safety glasses. We don’t have that rule here so we all need to be careful while grinding. I say this to myself especially 😉


  39. John S. says:

    By the way Dennis,why did you never speak up and talk to me all the while I was blathring away on the “friends of J.W.s” website?For months I was talking,trying to get some asociation and spiritual vibe from anybody over there.Peter and I wore each other out.You are interesting to listen to,why didn’t you box my ears or something,…anything,bad or good,would have been welcome.If we’re batting the scriptures around and arguing as is common even on this site,at least we’re talking and learning.We’re still playing ball,right? Paul presented good arguments or logical reasonings,like one chapter in our old ‘Theocratic Ministry School Guidebook’,…’Convince Your Audience,Reason With Them’.On a forum like this,it’s not just a lecture or a talk,so we could call this experience ‘Convince Your Audience,Argue With Them’,as long as you realize the listeners might give back as good or better than what you’re putting out.Fair enough.But if you brothers think I’m out of line here by my comments,I’ll tone it down,orif you don’t think anything I’ve said the past couple weeks was helpful,truthful or encouraging,I’ll be glad to excuse myself.I am a fiery believer in the importance of Bible Truth;John 8:32.I don’t know it all and desire to associate with people of like faith and I have been alone in my quest for 4 years until last year I hooked up with the ‘Friends’site.But those teachings are somewhere I can’t go as sister Ruth terms it.Sorry.I won’t say anymore about it.


    • Brother John,

      First let me say, I am not a Russellite. I do not believe everything he put forth as the truth. My salvation does not depend upon my doing so. I know he held some incorrect views, just as I guarantee you, we all do. However, I know of no other person who did more in the modern era to consolidate and bring to the fore, the bible truths I and many of us here hold dear. The search for truth however did not stop with Russell. Knowing how the written word does not always convey ones true character due to it’s inherent limitations, I must defer to the numerous eyewitness accounts of people who knew him to shape my own opinion of him and his character. Having not meet him myself, this method works for me. What I like about the Bible Student movement is that you are allowed freedom in Christ while at the same time you are free to fellowship with ones of similar faith who are united on what I believe to be the BASIC tenets of truth. That being said, there is a point where you just have to agree to disagree and nothing more can be served by arguing a particular point. If the JW’s were more like the Bible Students I probably never would have left.

      As for why I’m primarily just a lurker on that site I’ll just say, I am tooooo busy to participate. My own personal bible study, witness effort and the study group that I lead at my house each Sunday morning keeps me swamped.

      In closing I’ll just say, I have a problem with the way you presented your view point in the post I replied to. I thought it was off base. Had the tone been like these last two post’s of yours I wouldn’t have given it a second thought despite still not agreeing with all of your positions. It’s not necessary that I do so.

      Christian Love,


  40. John S. says:

    Thankyou,Dennis,for replying.And Greybeard too.I’m sorry I spoke with an acidic tone on the last comments. Like G.B. said,I hope the Jews come to Christ too,although I find that hard to believe that as a nation this will happen.Those O.T. prophecies…well,I concur with Andrew’s excellent oration,nuff said.To BROTHER Dennis: I highly respect your thoughts,regrettably I cannot make it to your Sunday study,but wish for an invitation to someday.I look forward to meeting you and sharing CONVERSATION.I have stated this site to me has the earmarks of having the Holy Spirit.I view some of you brothers here,most the commentators as true shepherds,”elders even,in one viewpoint,as many of you are full of Holy Spirit and are ‘handling the word of truth aright’.Please accept that I accept the counsel you 2 gave in the proper spirit,and I stand corrected.I am impulsive,prideful,and I can’t think of any more ,but I know….Sorry to all for sending sparks flying(well put,G.B.)I do have good motives and I hope to continue to associate please with the Bros,and Sisters.I promise to be more loving and considerate in future discussions.


    • Dennis Parker says:

      John S,

      What else can I say to this last post except, I love you Brother.



    • greybeard says:

      There is an old saying that goes like this, “you can’t spot it if you don’t got it.” I have received much council from brothers on this site and I am very happy they are here for me and all. No one is above another. We are all brothers here. We can see you have good motives. You are always welcome brother.


  41. John S. says:

    Thanks for caring


  42. Willie says:

    I know that I have “put-off” many of you regarding my opinion that the Church is under the Grace Covenant and not the New Covenant. Perhaps I have not explained my position as thoroughly as I should have. Today I ran across this paragraph by another Brother [NOT Bro. Russell] that I thought would be helpful in this respect. It says: “The ‘blood of the covenant’ refers to the New Covenant. We PARTICIPATE in the blood of the New Covenant NOW, but the covenant itself will be SEALED LATER. Jesus’ blood has been put aside for the FUTURE APPLICATION on behalf of the world, but presently the merit of that blood is applied to the Church. The Church will become identified with Jesus as sharers in the sin offering. The blood of the Lord’s goat will cancel the sin of the world, but the blood of the bullock PRECEDED AND JUSTIFIED the goat. Christ’s merit is temporarily loaned to the Church. When the Church is complete, the merit of Jesus’ blood will be applied to the world to remove the curse and bring restitution. Hence the ‘BLOOD’ seals, or secures, the New Covenant. The ‘blood’ here [Heb. 10:29] has to do with PARTICIPATION in the cup; it is the participation of the CHURCH’S BLOOD COMMINGLED WITH CHRIST’S BLOOD. [Lev. 16:18]. Both are used to seal the New Covenant. If one who has understood and consecrated with the hope of the high calling subsequently renounces or gives up this hope, he is counting ‘the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy [COMMON] thing’ and is thus worthy of Second Death.” The New Covenant begins with the Jewish Holy Remnant in Jerusalem and will extend to the who world. That is why it is important to consider the Jews! [CAPITAL EMPHASIS is mine.]


  43. John S. says:

    Well,about the Jews once more,I will pray for them to come to their senses and think about forgiveness and love for their enemies,if this turns into a full-blown war in the middle east.If it does,many Jews and Arabs are going to see the wicked fruitage of warfare.Maybe then they will see the superiority of “Love your enemy”I appreciate viewing the opposing sides of this issue,and there seems to be logic in both.But Jesus words on this subject should take center stage;”Jerusalem,Jerusalem,the killer of the prophets,and stoner of those sent forth to often I wanted to gather your children together,the way a hen gathers her chicks together under her wings.But you people did not want it.Look,YOUR HOUSE IS ABANDONED TO YOU.”(Matt.23:38) To this day,the Jews are not only bombing and killing,but being bombed and killed,today,as in the past 2ooo years.What is there but the written word about Christ and the ransom for Jews to change?Are we to think a naturally-fought war with tanks and possibly nuclear arms,even if they win,will turn the Jews to Christ,or just cause them to continue to believe in their man-made political machine?


  44. Willie says:

    Oh, yes, I remember now, John S.–the Jews were one point of disagreement that you had with Bro. Russell. The fact that Israel has been gathered out of all nations back to their homeland (Isa.14:1) is something that has never happened in the history of the world. Doesn’t that impress you?

    I’ll admit the natural Jew living in Israel today WON’T BE CHANGED until the kingdom comes. I expect nine-tents of them will die in Jacob’s trouble–their final war–but the holy one-tenth that SURVIVES will be the nucleus for the beginning of the kingdom in Jerusalem (Zeph.3:13).

    Zech. 10:6 reads, “And I will strengthen the house of Judah, and I will save the house of Joseph, and I will bring them again to place them; for I have MERCY upon them: and THEY SHALL BE AS THOUGH I HAD NOT CAST THEM OFF: for I AM THE LORD THEIR GOD, and will hear them.” These assurances from the LORD go on through verse 12. The Old Testament was written for the Jews and is chock full of God’s promises to Israel; even so, the New Testament elaborates on these promises to Israel ever so often.

    The high calling to live and reign with Christ went to the Jews first and if they had responded in order to make up the 144,000, the offer would never have gone to the Gentiles–“You only have I known…” (Amos 3:2). God swore by himself (Gen. 22:16) in his promise to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob that “I … will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed” (Gen. 26:3,4). Do you think that that promise won’t be fulfilled? The earthly seed will begin with a holy remnant of Jews (Isa. 62:12)–in my estimation they are alive today–and during the Kingdom reign of Christ and the Church, all those who receive everlasting life on earth will have to be subject to the Israelite governmnent under the earthly administration of the Ancient Worthies until the end of the Millennium.

    This holy remnant of Israel–perhaps ten percent as suggested by other Scriptures–shall survive in Jacob’s trouble (Jer. 30:7). Lev. 27:32 says, “And concerning the tithe of the herd, or of the flock, even of whatsoever passeth under the rod, the tenth part shall be holy unto the LORD” (Lev. 37:32). And here we see the same principle applied to the people of Israel, “And I will cause YOU to pass under the rod, and I will bring YOU into the bond of the covenant”–the New Covenant–as we read in Eze. 20:37, “…Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: Not according to the [old Law] covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt…. For this is the [New]covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind and write them in their hearts; and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people [in the Kingdom Age].”

    At the beginning of the hope of the heavenly Kingdom, Jesus send his apostles only to “the lost sheep of the house of Israel” (Matt. 15:24). In 36 AD with the conversion of Cornelius, the Gentiles were graphed in and some in our day would not be surprised if a few Jews were not re-graphed back in at the very end of the Gospel Age (Rom. 11:23-29), as we read in verses 24 and 25: “For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree; HOW MUCH MORE SHALL THESE, WHICH BE THE NATURAL BRANCHES, be graffed into their own olive tree. … [B]lindness in part is happened to Israel until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.”

    Israel’s eyes will be opened beginning with the Holy Remnant–“all the families that remain” (Zech. 12:14), “They shall look on him whom they pierced (Zech. 12:10; John 19:37) by some miraculous vision perhaps, since we know that our risen Lord cannot be seen with human eyes without being blinded by the light as Saul [Paul] was on the road to Damascus.

    All these promises have nothing to do with the present government of Israel, political agreements, etc.; however, two more wars ARE predicted for Israel in the Scriptures as I understand it. It seems reasonable to believe that the prayer of Psalm 83 is the prayer of the most religious persons living in Israel today–the potential members of the Holy Remnant. I feel quite sure that this war be be won by the grace of God, so that Israel will be living in peace and safety (Eze. 38:11,12) when the final battle, known as Jacob’s trouble, takes place (Jer. 30:7). They will be saved out of it when God himself fights for them (Eze. 38:18-22) as in the days of old. “Thus will I magnify myself, and sanctify myself; and I will be known in the eyes of many nations, and they shall know that I am the LORD” (Eze. 38:23; Zeph 3:8,9).

    Zech. 13:8,9 says, “And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts [the Little Flock and the Great Multitude] therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein. And I will bring the third part [the Holy Remnant of Israel] through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried; they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.” THEN the Kingdom on earth begins in Jerusalem (Jer.3:17,18)!


    • Amos says:


      While I agree with some points that Russell made concerning the return of Israel & their featuring in the “Plan of God”, I can see that much of it could not be true….that is that he was going beyond what is clearly stated in scripture.

      Just a thought concerning “Jacobs Trouble”, has it occurred to you that it may have happened in AD70? The survival rate from that event was estimated at 10%, plus it was the end of the Jewish system in that day. Mind you, I’m not suggesting that it means that Israel is not going to feature in the coming events during the millennial age, as I personally believe that they will. Just something to ponder over.


  45. humbleman says:

    Hi Bro John s. i just wanted to add to the scripture you quoted from Matthew 23 in verse 39 it says

    39For I say to YOU, YOU will by no means see me from henceforth until YOU say, ‘Blessed is he that comes in Jehovah’s name!’” .

    when does this happen Zechariah 12 v 10

    “And I will pour out upon the house of David and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem the spirit of favor and entreaties, and they will certainly look to the One whom they pierced through, and they will certainly wail over Him as in the wailing over an only [son]; and there will be a bitter lamentation over him as when there is bitter lamentation over the firstborn

    it happens after the war of Armageddon up until that point the nation of Israel are enemies of the gospel and disobedient just like we once where. how loving our true God Jehovah is he is faithful :)

    Romans 11

    28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, 31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.
    33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!
    34 “ For who has known the mind of the LORD?
    Or who has become His counselor?”[i]
    35 “ Or who has first given to Him
    And it shall be repaid to him?”[j]


  46. John S. says:

    That was a beautiful commentary,Willie,and we’ll probably all get first-row seats here shortly to the fulfillment,as I noticed Israel rocketed an Arab town in retaliation for something they had done,here we are ,back in the 60’s again.Well you had asked about what I disagreed with as far as Russell’s teachings,but rather,I want to give kudos to our Brother Russell,yes,we owe much to his efforts in restoring and advertising.Notably 1914.Personally,I do agree that 1914,or close to it was the end of the times of Gentile rule and the beginning of the “Last Days”,as the ‘sign’the Lord gives fits right in and on time,although it was a first-century application first.But many things the Lord foretold were world-events. Matt.24:14 Personally,my opinion is that Babylon the Great is the institution of the Catholic church,(not individual members) which if she did get singled out,would satisfy many people that there is a God in heaven,don’t you think?So I believe the destruction of Babylon(foretold for 1915 in ‘Studies’)is yet future.But one of my biggest and most important concepts of which I only have a few on Revelation,is that the144,000 is symbolic;like the rest of Revelation,as stated by the Lord.This is to me clearly symbolising the differing sises(forgive my spelling,the last letter of the alphabet is out on my cmpter)of earthly,vss.heavenly groups.As to the “Great Multitude”,they are said to come out of the Great Tribulation,and as they survive it,and wash their robes in Christ’s blood,it is apparent they have either changed their minds from earlier in the ‘Last Days’or they were new-believers,not dedicated to God,but having seen all they did at the end,and endured theG.T.,and saw the Christians disappear from earth(“taken”),were now firmly on the Christian side,and do not “take the mark of the beast”,hence are granted life into the Millenial rule,which I believe starts when all the anointed are taken up and those asleep in death achieve the 1st resurrection.The expression,”they are standing before the throne”,does not necessarilly mean they are literally in heaven,as they are not apparently bound in that direction,so we must look at other verses where this expression is used.One such is at2Kings 5:16″ Jehovah,before whom I do stand is living,”…and Ps.2:2 “The kings of earth take their stand and high officials themselveshave massed together as one against Jehovah,and against his anointed one.” Also Luke 21:36,”…that you may succeed in escaping all these things that are destined to occur,and in STANDING before the Son of Man.”And lastly,at Rev.20:12,the general resurrection to the earth during the “1000 year rule” of mankind is described as occuring.Notice where the people are congregated;”And I saw the dead,the great and the small,STANDING BEFORE THE THRONE,and scrolls were opened…and the dead were judged out of those things written in the scrolls,according to their deeds.”Clearly not the forgiven Christians taken up to heaven previously,as they’re viewed as righteous at the time of their death,and by this time are already in heaven.So we see the expression,”standing before the throne means that particular group is before Jehovah’s direct vision and is being scrutinised as to a judgement outcome.None of the ones I quoted were actually in heaven,but on earth.So the Great Crowd,also is still on the earth when Jehovah pronounces them worthy through his son’s blood to walk on into the future with clean,lifesaving white (pictures clean and holy)garments on.And only if there are survivors who are repentant and desiring to serve the new King,would there be a foundation to build a Kingdom upon.This is why some evidently believe the “flesh saved”during the Armageddon battle is the “chosen ones”,or the bride of the Lord.(Rev.19:7,8)But according to the scripture,I think these are saved by being take up when Christ returns,and that’s why he returns right at the last,because his Bride to be is being tortured and slaughtered by the beast for not taking the mark.Rev.14:12,13Matt.25:10.Also this Great Crowd is seen as rendering God sacred service in his temple.As we all learned,the courtyard of the Gentiles in the literal temple almost certainly represents the earthly worshippers of Jehovah,the anointed while on earth being in what was symbolised by the “Holy” compartment,and then after death and resurrection they pass thru the curtain into the “Most Holy”,into heaven itself,as explained by Paul.I certainly don’t believe this “Great Crowd “is a secondary “slacker” or lasy class of Christians that don’t make it thru the first cut or judgement of the anointed,as this would indicate the anointed are chosen on the basis of works,instead of having their sins forgiven. Some are of the mistaken opinion that the 5 foolish virgins in Jesus 10-virgin parable make it to heaven on a lower level,hence they are represented by this Great Multitude.But in Jesus parable,the 5 foolish get the door slammed in their face,and shamed with the statement from the Lord himself,”I tell you the truth,I do not know you.”Where in that statement could you see anything to give an indication they were going to have eternal life in heaven?


  47. John S. says:

    Well,Willie,I quoted Matt.23:38 and as I was reading that text to make sure I got it quoted right I did read the next one,and I hoped you wouldn’t bring that up,as it is a good one for your side of the fence.Touche’.Well I suppose it’s possible after the Jews get slaughtere two more times,killing off 90% of their numbers that they just might start thinking Christianity may need to be looked into,especially after they may see the taking of the 5 virgins to heaven to marry Christ,his bride.(although I don’t know what else they would picture,if not his illustrative wife-to-be).nd I know some find this offensive,saying the ‘Bride’is not the brothers of Christ,but the Holy City,New Jerusalem,yet it clearly says the 12 foundation stones of the N.J.are named “the 12 Apostles of the Lamb.”Rev.21:14(Ruth may want to comment here)


  48. Ruth says:

    John S.
    Seems like you want to throw me into the deep end here John?

    I am just a simple ordinary person who sees things the way it is simply written. I see the spiritual side not the human side.

    Well, this is what the Lord has taught me about the bride who will be married to the word. (Lamb)

    Firstly. If you go check Isaiah chapter 62. It is a prophesy about Jerusalem how the nations would see her righteousness. she is the salvation like a torch that is burning. She will be called by a new name. A NEW NAME. Also
    Isaiah 62-4.
    says your land will be married to her. as a young man marries a virgin. “You must read all of Isaiah 62. This a prophecy I do believe is about the New Jerusalem.

    Revelation 21-2 starts the whole journey and the Marriage of the lamb.

    It has nothing to do with 10 virgins as that was only a parable not a prophecy. Has a totally different meaning. The difference between the five wise virgins and the five foolish virgins is salvation. Anyway!
    John goes on to say what he saw.
    I saw the Holy city new Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God (MADE READY)as a bride adorned for her husband.

    Then Revelation 21-9 The angle tells John to come here.
    I will show you the wife of the lamb. John now says he was carried by the spirit to a great high mountain. Then he saw the new Jerusalem. We know how beautiful it looked with so many precious stones gold. We know it had 12 gates the the names of the 12 tribes of Israel. We know it had the foundations with the 12 apostles names. revelation 21- 22:27 talks how the nations will walk by that light. The Kings of the EARTH( NOT HEAVEN) WILL BRING THERE GLORY INTO IT.

    If now we are the bride of Christ! Why did Jesus say himself in Matthew 9:4 when Johns attendants asked Jesus why his disciples did not fast?
    Listen to what Jesus had to say to them!

    The attendants of the bridegroom cannot mourn until the groom has been take away. ATTENDANTS! hang on here. People are saying the disciples are included in the bride of Christ? Now they are Attendants?

    NO Jesus you are wrong! We do not want a simple gospel please give us a break here. Really. Yes we want to complicate as much as we possibly can. But it is simple Jesus says.

    But there are 12 apostles in scripted on the foundations! not only that. why there are the 12 tribes on the 12 gates.
    Yes so what is you point here? That does not diminish the fact that the new Jerusalem is the bride of Christ.

    Brothers when it says new Jerusalem is coming down out from heaven I believe Jesus will rule in his Kingdom here on earth.
    Revelation 5:10 says Kings and priests to rule on earth with the Lord no doubt.
    If we are Kings and priests How can we be the Bride of Christ at the same time?
    No its so easy. It is a simple not man made gospel.
    that is what the Lord has taught me.
    Not from my mouth but from the holy scriptures and holy spirit..
    Sister Ruth.


  49. Ruth says:

    Sorry the scripture is Matthew 9:14 – 15


  50. Willie says:

    Thanks, John S., for that additional scripture; I need all the help I can get! I also appreciate the input of Humbleman. But you misunderstood me a little bit, John S.–the Jews don’t “get slaughtered two more times.” Regarding the “Psalm 83 Prayer” scenario, we aren’t told the outcome in Psalms, but considering other Scriptures, by extrapolation we have to assume that God WILL deliver them against their Arab neighbors listed by their ancient names in verses 6-8, so that Israel can dwell safely (Ezek. 38:11) for a few years until Jacob’s trouble comes around(Jer. 30:7). That’s the point in time when ONLY the “Holy Remnant” escapes throught the valley created when the Mount of Olives splits in half (Zech. 14:3-11). Zech 14:4,5 reads: and his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee [Christ].”

    Perhaps it is appropriate to point out that five-sixths of the hords that come against Israel will also die, but the one-sixth that is spared of the enemy (Ezek.39:1-7) will be for the purpose of witnesses to testify to their respective nations of the glory and power of God Almighty in fighting for his chosen people, Israel.

    This morning I was looking at Ezek. 16 which is a scathing denunciation of Jerusalem–thus the Israelites. Beginning with verse 44 to the end of the chapter is noteworthy. The highlight is Eze. 16:60-63 which says, “Nevertheless I will REMEMBER MY [OLD LAW] COVENANT with thee in the days of thy youth, and I will establish unto thee an EVERLASTING [NEW] COVENANT. Then thou shalt remember thy ways, and be ashamed, when thou shalt receive thy sisters, thine elder and thy younger: and I will give them unto thee for daughters, BUT NOT TO THY COVENANT. And I WILL ESTABLISH MY [NEW] COVENANT WITH THEE; and thou shalt know that I am the LORD: That thou mayest remember, and be confounded, and never open thy mouth any more because of thy shame, WHEN I AM PACIFIED TOWARD THEE FOR ALL THAT THOU HAST DONE, saith the Lord God.” This is definitely FUTURE!


  51. John S. says:

    Sis.Ruth,yes ,I’m throwing you and a couple others on this site the bone of the discussion.The question I have about this Bride/New Jerusalem.I was answering this other call and while quoting the scripture,alluded to the new topic you are speaking about.I knew and asked for your amplified understanding,and on this point I myself and I’m sure others will comment.My question now for the site;Andrew and Ruth,anybody;Do you think the Bride of Christ literally comes to earth,the New Jerusalem,and rules on the Earth.Christ too,the 1440000 class,all in Earth space,Earth time.That seems to be what it is saying,what does anyone say about this? And why can’t the 144,000 class also be the Bride,the New Jerusalem,the Wheat,the Brothers of Christ,salt of the earth,the Body of Christ,etc., as I always thought it was all referring to the anointed anyway,who the scriptures do say will rule “on the earth”,why not right down here in materialised earthly bodies,united with loved ones and communicating directly with their subjects,teaching at conventions,broadcasting over airwaves to t.v. and radio media ,etc.?No,no,direspect intended sister,just opening the discussion back up to you.This seems an important point,that Andrew and others may have thoughts on too,as I’ve heard it tossed about here.


  52. Willie says:

    Dear John S., I didn’t see your 11:30 post until after I had already written a comment on your 11:47 reply, so here I go again. Yes, I agree with you that Gentile Times ended in 1914. The Gentile governments in Britain, USA, Australia, and several in Europe are on the way down and out [Canada seems to be a little more stable than the others for the moment). It’s a process that is happening so quickly that even those who are not religiously inclined are alarmed and many are reacting via demonstrations and sit-ins. We must remind our unconsecrated family and friends to “… seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be ye shall be hid in the day of the LORD’s anger” (Zeph. 2:3). American is turning into a third world country as we speak and we don’t fight it or complain–we just LET IT BE for we know that it is a part of God’s plan and that the Messianic Kingdom is on the way in a few short years.

    Have you considered the “hour of power” spoken of in many places in the Bible in various ways? I think that that is the reign of the eight beast, a resurrection of the fifth beast (Rev. 17:8-11), the “Holy?” Roman Empire that persecuted the saints for 1260 years (539 to 1799 AD). Since judgment begins at the house of God (I Pet. 4:17) the last of the true Church can expect to die during the hour of power of the Roman Catholic Church. After that, Papal Rome will be judged, then the members of Babylon, the Mother of Harlots, next the Great Multitude for they have some chores to do before their demise and lastly Israel is judged. Finally, the Kingdom and after a period of clean-up the resurrection of earth’s billions can begin with the last being the first to be raised, etc. I have always thought that though the majority of mankind will die before the Kingdom begins that those spared will be those most conducive to righteousness as we read in Zeph. 2:3 above. It would make the most sense and correspond to God’s sparing the Holy Remnant of the Jews. When beginning any new endeavor it is always expedient to begin with those who are most sympathetic with the goals of the new administratioin–in this case, under Christ and the Church on the spiritual plane and the Ancient Worthies and the Holy Remnant on the earthly plane.

    A study of Leviticus gives us a better understanding of the Church in glory–represented by the high priest–who are the priests and kings with Jesus, and the Great Multitude–who are represented by the Levites–who, if you recall, were not to be numbered (Num. 2:33). Thus we see that the Little Flock IS TO BE NUMBERED (144,000) and the Great Multitude is a group “which no man could number” (Rev. 7:9). Both represent spiritual classes because they have NO INHERITANCE IN THE LAND (Num. 18:20-24). Under this assumption the Great Multitude would of necessity have to also be a spiritual class in order to assist the Little Flock, the Bride, the 144,000, the Church of the first born–all of those names representing the different functions of the class that live and reign with Jesus. The Church will be neither male nor female in Heaven, so being called a Bride merely shows the closness of the relationship which will not be sexual anyway. Respecting whether or not the number 144,000 is a symbol, I submit the following reasoning of a very wise Bible scholar who observed that while places and things are symbolic in Revelation, numbers are literal. Several years and much study later, I must admit that I must agree with that statement.

    The Great Multitude come out of the Great Tribulation DEAD. You have to die if you’re going to heaven in any position. A very good example is the scapegoat in Lev. 16:8-22. After the death of the LORD’s goat (the Church class) the scaptgoat is taken into the wilderness by the hand of a strong man–Azazel (Satan) in some translations–to be killed. This fact is one reason that I disagree with most Bible Students that Satan is NOT bound in any way until AFTER the death of the Great Multitude represented by the scapegoat.

    While there are many instances of appearing before the throne, only the spirit born ones CAN appear before the heavenly throne. All the appearances of humankind would of necessity have to be on earth, no matter what symbolism is used. The third temple described in Ezekiel 40-48, I suspect will be the location of a great deal of the events in the Kingdom; however, I doubt that any “sinners” will be allowed to come inside. I think that the Ancient Worthies with be the “fronts” for the invisible Christ and his Church during the earthly judging however it takes place.


  53. Ruth says:

    Dear Bro john.
    When I can I will get back to you with answers.

    Right now l feel like the help of people hearts seem to be needing more attention.Coming out of the w/tower and what so many have had to endure in there seems more of a priority at the moment.
    l do believe so many are suffering in one way or another.
    l know who my Lord is. I feel very safe at knowing his will and his purpose. I want to keep the gospel simple for the sheep.

    You are a shinning light no doubt. You have a beautiful heart.
    Your sister Ruth.


  54. Bro Ed says:

    I will keep my comments brief. As already stated in previous posts, Romans 11:25-32 was given as a sacred secret to keep us from thinking how wise we are in relation to God’s plan for Israel. I, like others here who have brought these scriptures to the fore, do not find them obscure or difficult to understand especially when used in conjunction with Jesus’ own words in Mat 19:28, Luke 22:30 and Mat 23:37-39. If Israel has ‘stumbled’ for the sake of the Gentiles (you and me), then God can and has promised he will show them mercy – for the sake of their ancestors – when the time of his judgement arrives.

    As Gentile Christians we have been grafted on as branches to the cultivated olive tree and the branches of many of the ancestral Israelites were broken off to make way for us. Romans 11:24 concludes by saying, “For if you have been cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these natural branches be grafted back into their own olive tree.” NRSV


    • Amos says:

      Well said Bro Ed. These are my thoughts also.
      Romans 11:24 makes it very clear. Something that I’ve learnt is that the scriptures will always interpret themselves when we look hard enough



  55. humbleman says:

    thanks bro ed the thing that really hit home for me as regards Romans 11 v 24 was if they were cast of from God forever then why are they still natural to the olive tree. wouldn’t they have been just the same as the gentiles. very interesting topic. what i love most about this. is we can all have different points of view on certain issues yet we all agree Jehovah is the only true God and his dear son Jesus is our savior. and we are all bonded by there love :)


  56. Euphrates says:

    Not sure if anyone has touched on this but this is what I believe and there is history and scripture to back it up, my close friend wrote a great article on this but I will have to ask fir his permission before I use his material. The so called Jewish state of today is nothing more than a forgery , and the powers that be ( princes of this world) under lucifers guidance, staged the second world war for various reasons, one is ultimately to establish a new world order , but another was to create a false Jewish state, they are not the Israelites of the bible, the biblical israelites do not exist today, only a spiritual Israel exists and that is anyone who the almighty Father has drawn to his only beggoten Son Yeshua our lord! Alot of people have fallen for this lie, Arthur koestle has written a great book on this called the 13th tribe. The so called Jews of today do not accept Yeshua, they, instead of adhereing to the Torah , go by Babylonian Talmudic beliefs and practice satanic Kabbalah . They are of khazarian stock mostly, which in turn are the ashkanezim Jews . it’s all part of lucifers deception. I hope I have not offended anyone as it was not my intention , but the truth is far more important, and I am certain that most of the so called Jews of today are not even aware of this fact, some are. I am just stating the deception imposed on the world and am not in any way judging the nation of israel today, as I believe they are being used as pawns in the game, just as the rest of the world is. May God grant us all wisdom to see the truth and not be deceived .


    • JJ says:


      I agree with you that the modern day Israelites do not seem to be anywhere close to being reaccepted again as Gods chosen ones. On the contrary, they are manipulated by the devil just as much as the other nations.

      Welcome to the site it is nice to hear your thoughts!



  57. Euphrates says:

    Sorry forgot to quote scripture on this topic regarding the false Jewish state Revelation 3:9. Indeed I will make those of the synagogue of Satan, who say they are Jews and ate not, but lie….


  58. Euphrates says:

    Sorry made a mistake , meant to write revelations 3:9 indeed I will make those of the synagogue of Satan , who say they are Jews and are not, but lie, again great topic to bring up Andrew.


  59. humbleman says:

    The bible describes the nation of Israel as being enemies of the good news until the full 144000 are sealed Romans 11 v 28 so its no surprise at this moment in time they are not a Godly nation. the covenant is not made with the Israel being spoken of in Romans 11 v 25-28 until the deliverer comes from zion at Armageddon. please read Zechariah 12 v 10-14 & Zechariah 13 v 1 and reason with your self if this is talking about the Nation of Israel or spiritual Israel who have all ready been cleansed from sin and are under no condemnation in fact they are sons of God. romans 8. the Israel in Zechariah 12 & 14 & Ezekiel 38 & 39 are unbelieving and sin full until Jehovah pours out the spirit of grace upon them. Ezekiel 39 v 21 Zechariah 12 v 10.. if somebody wants to identify themselves with the Israel in these verses. then they also have to accept they don’t accept Christ until after the war of Armageddon. bro humbleman


  60. humbleman says:

    that would be Ezekiel 39 v 21-29. just to add a lot of people including my self would say its replacement theology that is the lie. the gathering of the gentiles was for the kingdom in heaven. there is a purpose to it. but once that is completed then God will turn his attention back to his the nation and fulfill the promises he made to Abraham Issac & Jacob romans 11 v 25-29


  61. andrew says:

    This is a great issue to show the importance of tolerance in the Christian community.

    Some are completely convinced that the modern state of Israel is just another nation among the many countries of the world, nothing special.

    Others are convinced that they play a special role in God’s purpose.

    Would it further the interest of the good news if we were to accuse those who disagree with us of eating a dish served up by Satan?

    Would unity be served by each side saying that since we are lovers of truth we must condemn the “false teaching” of the other side?

    If this is our attitude we are a force for division and disunity. We have elevated love of doctrine over love of neighbor, just like we did when we were JWs.

    Is there a right answer to the question if modern Israel is God’s chosen people? Of course. Just as there is a right answer if Christians should observe the Sabbath, whether God is part of a trinity, and which prophecies have already been fulfilled. But we may never know beyond a shadow of a doubt what the right answer is during this life time. And if we denigrate and vilify those who disagree with us, we have missed the purpose of Christ’s teachings.


  62. DanielB says:

    Dear Andrew , I can see what you are going through . That organization that you were so actively a part of , which I was too , is truly to blame for sustaining us within their boxed thinking .

    Still , I keep noticing that you keep preaching the “Tolerance Doctrine” on Bible understandings .

    You say , ” Would unity be served by each side saying that since we are lovers of truth we must condemn the “false teaching” of the other side?

    If this is our attitude we are a force for division and disunity. ”

    Our Master of our Faith says through Paul , to Titus , that he should show :

    ” Uncorruptness In Your Teaching , seriousness , wholesome speech Which Cannot Be Condemned ; so that the man on the opposing side may get ashamed , having nothing vile to say about us . ”

    It is the ” Uncorruptness In Your Teaching ” that ought to interest us here .

    And to the Corintians , ” For the weapons of our warfare are not fleshly , but powerful by God for Overturning Strongly Entrenched Things . For we are overturning reasonings and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God ; and we are bringing every thought into captivity to make it obedient to the Christ . ”

    2 Corinthians 10: 4,5

    Which is a stronger force for unity within the brothers of Christ ? The Tolerance Doctrine , or the ” uncorruptness in your teaching ” ?

    Help me in my direction , if you will .

    Who shall I listen to for direction on Bible Prophesy ?

    Have you learned any answers on this recently ?

    Please answer as you can .

    – a brother with concerns . . . .


  63. Disappointed says:

    dear bro Andrew, you are so right. There are some things we just don’t fully understand and we cannot be dogmatic about it. Many things we won’t fully understand until God reveals it to us. The things the apostle Paul was against were those speaking their own twisted ideas, men’s phylosophy, so that they could draw men after themselves instead of following Christ. It’s good to see your posts again dear bro. :)


  64. Disappointed says:

    Dear bro. Daniel.. I see and understand where bro. Andrew is coming from. We CANNOT be dogmatic about certain beliefs if they are not concrete. Some beliefs have reasonable doubts one way or another. I read the scriptures for myself over and over and over and think ‘can it mean this?’ or ‘can it mean that?’ Someone can come up with an argument that makes perfect sense, then someone comes up with an opposing argument that also makes sense! So what do I believe? At the end of the day some of us may be 50% right and some others of us 50% right. We cannot all be 100% right. It’s impossible because so much of the scriptures are difficult to understand. Even the apostles didn’t understand all of Jesus words when he was with them and explained it to them! What is wrong is that we come to what we believe is the correct understanding and expect everyone else to accept what we say. This is what caused all the problems in the Catholic church, the WTS and every other dogmatic religion. A true christian will not do this…


  65. andrew says:

    Bro. Daniel,

    Let me see if I can explain what I mean in this way:

    Do you feel a Christian should observe the Sabbath? (a simple yes or no will suffice)

    If your opinion on this matter is “uncorrupted teaching” would this mean that those who disagree with you are false teachers? Have they fallen in a trap of Satan?

    Would it not be imperative therefore to withdraw from any association with “false teachers” (those who have different opinions than your own)?

    I hope you can see the isolating effect that intolerance for different understandings can have.


  66. DanielB says:

    I understand .

    I also questioned :

    ” Which is a stronger force for unity within the brothers of Christ ? The Tolerance Doctrine , or the ” uncorruptness in your teaching ” ?

    Help me in my direction , if you will .

    Who shall I listen to for direction on Bible Prophesy ?

    Have you learned any answers on this recently ?

    Please answer as you can .

    – a brother with concerns . . . . ”



  67. Euphrates says:

    Just a few words on historical facts asserting my beliefs. Very few judean people exist today that are of pure genetic examples of Judah, Benjamin and other tribes of Israel . Ashkanezim Jews are not judeans, they were Edomites . These Edomites came to dominate the sadducee and pharisaic orders, introducing Talmudic beliefs to the biblical faith, the very things Yeshua condemned .
    Indeed these Pharisees were Edomite foreign people’s forcibly assimilated into the judean population and given favor by another idumean Herod Antipas, who wrongfully seized royal power, he slew John Hyrcanus the last lawful Israelite king of Isaac’s seed.

    they ( the Edomites ) were hereafter no other than(non-Israelite ) Jews . Flavius Josephus , the antiquities of the Jews( Grand Rapids, MI: Dregel Publications, 1960) Book XIII, ChapterIX, verse 1, p.279.

    At the end of the second century B.C.E. The (non-Israelite ) Edomites became a section of the Jewish people. “Edom” encyclopedia judaica( Jerusalem , Israel : encyclopedia judaica company 1971) vol 6, p.378.

    Strictly speaking , it is incorrect to call an acient Israelite a “Jew ” or to call a contemporary Jew an” Israelite” or a” Hebrew ” , ” identity crisis” The Jewish Almanac compiled and edited by Richard Siegel and Carl Reins( New York, NY: Bantam books, 1980) P. 3.

    Mathew renders Yeshua’s lineage to prove his racial heritage as pure Davidic heir through Jacob, affirming the prophets . In Yeshua’s day the difference between them was very clear!!
    Hope this helps there is so much more I could write on this topic , but hopefully this shall suffice…again only a spiritual Israel exists today, and I think history including current events and scripture proves this.


    • DanielB says:

      Thank you Euphrates . I agree that the attention had re-focussed to the new Israel of God during the course of events while Yeshua walked the Earth . Then those remaining were clearly invited to become part of the new nation .


  68. andrew says:

    Love would move us to be tolerant of others who have different biblical interpretations than ourselves.

    For bible prophecy I would recommend a good reference bible that will help you find similar prophecies and language in different parts of the bible.


    • DanielB says:

      Alright then Andrew , if you wish just consider my questions above as rhetorical .

      You needn’t answer .

      May clear Truth dwell within us .

      – brother dan


    • andrew says:

      I did try to briefly answer your questions. Love is the perfect bond of union between brothers not 100% doctrinal purity (if that were possible).

      As far as bible prophecy I recommended a reference bible which would help you locate similar prophecies and prophetic language.



  69. JJ says:


    I feel like we are making progress when it comes to understanding one another and “agreeing to disagree” on Biblical issues.

    DanielB you asked earlier, “Who shall I listen to for direction on Bible Prophesy?” In my mind, the simple answer is this:

    Listen to God as he speaks to your heart. Listen to your conscience as you read the scriptures for yourself. That’s the key isn’t it? We NO LONGER NEED ANY MAN to explain our hope to us. We don’t need Andrew and we don’t need JJ. We do not need someone else to interpret the Bible, because the comforter, the Holy Spirit, is there to aid us. Doesn’t 2 Timothy 3:16,17 tell us this as well? This does not mean that we can’t learn from our fellow sister or brother; quite the contrary. We humbly listen to others and accept counsel from them.

    But who do we really NEED to listen to? What organization or structure should we submit ourselves to? That’s the question that can be the hardest to answer, can be so confusing to us, because we went so many years with the WT and the elders telling us what to believe and what was ok and not ok to do. They told us what movies we could watch, and whether we could work at an army base cleaning rooms or not. They told us that only THEY had “the truth” and now we know they lied to us. It’s so hard to shake these feelings of superiority and “rightness”. To realize that we don’t need and are not required to submit to a man-made structure for salvation.

    We only need to believe in the Lord Jesus, love the Father and our neighbor, and do our best…


  70. DanielB says:

    Thank you JJ . I agree , and have agreed , with what you say here .
    Good seeing you at . We all seem to have this same understanding there .

    Your brother ,



  71. Ruth says:

    Thank you for that detailed well developed piece of information.
    It is very interesting that it is now spiritual Israel. That makes a lot of sense to me.



  72. Ruth says:

    Dear bro danielB.
    I have to agree with you Dan.
    There is no place in the body of Christ regarding a tolerance doctrine. One thing I know for sure is when one comes into a personal relationship with the Father his spirit guides us to all truth.
    We cannot deny or budge when the real truth by revelation is given to us. When everything falls into place with no doubt. @
    When it is happening to other brothers and sisters, when we all see the conclusion of the matter that the Lord is teaching us the same thing at the same time.

    When peace reigns in our hearts and we know who we are! Then we know that we are comfortable in our new walk. We know then we must stand for truth and righteousness.
    2 John 1:10 If someone comes to you and brings a different doctrin receive him not into your house.
    Don’t be fooled the Devil is a roaring lion. Sister Ruth


  73. greybeard says:

    I am in agreement with brother Andrew on this one. Wasn’t it the pharisees who tried to make everyone including Christ himself obey the letter of the law? Were not they the ones who practiced intolerance? I am tired of religions trying to force their interpretation of scripture on me. Most Bible Students that I know celebrate Christmas, a celebration that has it’s roots clearly founded in Babylonian paganism. Some of them are first to preach against a “tolerance doctrine” yet they tolerate such things a Santa Clause and Christmas. Some will condemn others for celebrating Ester and then turn around and say Christmas is ok. These are people I just don’t understand. I am with Paul when he said, “Everything is permissible”–but not everything is beneficial. “Everything is permissible”–but not everything is constructive.” 1 Corinthians 10:23

    If there is truly “no place in the body of Christ regarding a tolerance doctrine.” Then who has the truth? Please show me two people on this website that agree 100% on all doctrinal issues. Honestly, I do not think the holy spirit works that way. If it did it would be clear. What is clear is our understanding of what true love for our fellow man is. There is no mistaking it. Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away.” 1 Corinthians 13:8

    It is very clear to me that most knowledge has passed away. Has our understanding on love passed away? I don’t think so. I am not going to judge my brother as condemned because he believes the trinity, celebrates Christmas or whatever. That is not my job.

    Jesus said the weeds will grow with the wheat. I believe there are good and bad people in all faiths. I believe God reads our hearts not our knowledge of correct doctrine. If that was so important to God then why all the trinitarian bibles? Why all the mistakes in most bibles such as the way they translated so many words into the one word HELL?

    Do we believe God has preserved his holy word the Bible? Truth is, if he has, he has only preserved the teachings of faith in Christ and showing love to ALL. The trinity, hell fire and many other things have been twisted in many bibles. Has love been twisted??? I don’t think so. I believe Christ words are still very clear on that subject. To condemn someone else as unworthy because he believes the trinity or that Christmas is ok just does not sit right with me. I am not going to play the judge as the Watchtower and many other religious people do.

    If you believe there “no place in the body of Christ regarding a tolerance doctrine” then please show me two Christians that believe and agree on everything 100% Then if you can find any, show me more in another part of the world. If I thought this was important then I would most likely go back to JW’s because they have that nailed down don’t they? Although, in reality, they do not all agree, not even the GB agree on everything.

    Like JJ said, “agreeing to disagree” is making progress 😉

    Your brother in Christ,


  74. DanielB says:

    What is the doctrine that Yeshua taught ? You are right dear sister Ruth . He did not speak the doctrine of tolerance for private interpretations of Divine prophesy , nor tolerance of any do-your-own-thingys .

    Yes , the devil is a roaring lion , seeking to devour someone , and if possible , even the select .

    I have studied Aristotle and Socrates/Plato , Marcus Araeleous , Kahlil Gibrahn , and Benjamin Franklin . There was not one of them that compared enough to the Wisdom of God .

    Then when I began reading Solomon , the obvious dawned on me . As Aristotle and Socrates were like the Pillsberry Doughboy , Solomon was as Whole Wheat !

    In other words , philosophies of men are a wasted effort compared to the spiritual nutrition in Christ !

    This is the gospel truth .

    Thank you dear “Ruth” , Patricia , for your philia .



  75. humbleman says:

    I Also agree understanding the scriptures to the finest detail has nothing to do with our salvation. its our faith in God and Christ that is most important. although we are sanctified by the truth and should strive to understand them. Euphrates i appreciate the information you presented. but ultimately it is for God to say weather the Israel today is still loved by him. the scriptures point to a time when God seeks to destroy all nations and at that time he pours out his spirit on a unbelieving people who need cleaning from sin Zechariah 12 v 10 Zechariah 13 v 1. my conclusion is this is talking about the nation of Israel. that’s my scriptural basis for the belief i have. i would find it difficult to put faith in the information you have provided in your last comment because you didn’t mention a single scripture just the opinions of men. when all is said and done only time will tell exactly how things work out but in the mean time i want to assure you all of my brotherly love. 1 Corinthians 13 v 7. Love never stops being patient, never stops believing, never stops hoping, never gives up


  76. Disappointed says:

    I think the ‘tolerance doctrine’ has more to do about putting up with one another in love than accepting wrong doctrines. The doctrines mentioned in 1 John 1:10 has to do with the teaching that the Christ was not the Messiah and not to do with trying to understand bible prophecy. We all follow Christ here. We all look to him as our Master, our Saviour, the Messiah, the Son of God. Our understanding of bible prophecy differently does not make us either wrong or right. Our accepting and putting faith in Christ or not, does. There is ONE truth and that is the Christ who has died for us and has risen from the dead and sits at God’s right hand until his enemies are brought to nothing. Whatever else we believe about prophetic fulfillment either past or future is our own interpretation of it. Understanding prophecy is extremely difficult, easy to get wrong and shouldn’t be forced on anyone else. I have seen nothing of that happening on here (unlike in the organisation). But we all untited by that perfect bond of union.. LOVE.


  77. Ruth says:

    Dearest Disappointed.
    Peace be with you sister on your new journey of understanding.
    Please what I write here I don’t mean at all to insult nor hurt anyone. I have to write what the scriptures say about YESHUA our Messiah. The fire is burning in my soul for truth.

    If any of you have been observing closely you would see that not all are showing Honour to our saviour the way he is meant to worshipped and appreciated.
    Still allocating him to just a man. Some just cling to all the prophecies we already know not leaving them in the hands of the Father as we do not now the day or Hour. Yet the signs are surely here.

    Its pointless to spend time on these things when we need to clean our selves up. Straighten our ties so to speak. After all Jesus said he is the way truth and life. Its all about what he says from here on in. Simplicity in Yeshua is the way to go. Its not complicated. For the ordinary man and woman

    Some folks say we give our love to Jesus. Yes, we adore him. We follow him. But do they really?
    have they really opened the door and let Jesus in their hearts?

    Are we giving the preeminence to Christ! “That he now has a supreme place in our lives?
    Do we openly acknowledge In the name of Jesus every knee should bow? Or are we afraid?
    Would we bow to him and give him honour, Perhaps worship him. ( Its written.)

    What about Ephesians 3:16-17
    That God grant you according to the riches of his glory to be strengthened with power throughout the spirit of the inner man so that “CHRIST MAY DWELL IN YOUR HEARTS” Can I ask you honestly! How many people are letting Christ in there hearts! Or even game to say what is written about him.

    The keep saying its only Jehovah.” A little about the son.” Not much just enough to make themselves believe he still is the son of god.

    How many realise we do not have to wait to die to sit in heavily places. Ephesians 2 : 5-6
    ( talking of the present tense) Even when we were dead in sins. He has quickened us to gether with Christ and raised us up to gather in heavenly places.

    How many are saying they died with him? Buried with him? Saying the father wants it all about him in the Gospels. ” Because its written!

    Yes he mentions the father with love and affection. And the father returns that love..

    Ephesians 3:6 says That gentiles ( Not just the 144.000 of J/ws or any other religion. But Gentiles are also fellow heirs of the same body and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel.
    Are we telling folks this is the truth as it is written. Or just sitting on the fence.

    Some try to deny Christ’s preeminence. ” If they do! We will fight for truth” Tolerant to this! Never.
    The father has stepped aside for his son. Handed everything over to him.

    Its all about him. All about our Lord Yeshua. He has been given the legal right to be praised and blessed, you name its be given to him..

    1John 4:4 says he that is in you is greater than he that is in the world.
    Jesus is the one we must look to now. He is our Lord and master. The Father wants honour and Glory be given to his son. Listening to his son. Even worshipping his son does not demean the Fathers glory as he is bigger than that.

    How many times in the gospels does it talk about Christ being preached. So many times!
    he is the theme of just about everything in the new testament. ( Not just the Kingdom)

    So when we realise this and hear others never putting him clearly in ones life they are preaching a different gospel.

    Jesus spirit is in our hearts teaching us. Showing us one on one the real way. “COME TO ME! I WILL REFREH YOU.
    We do not need any man anymore to teach us. “Our Lord and saviour is doing a wonderful job on the saints.
    All we have to do is keep asking. keep knocking. Keep searching. Only then will we find the real pot of gold. “If you done believe me.” Thats fine. I would expect you to search for yourselves as I’m just a fellow worker with nothing to be ashamed of.

    Oh yes! We need each other. But we don’t need to listen to what is not from the Father but are man made ideas. Tolerance in these things! No way.
    In for giving a person for pain and hurt for sure! We must show love and tolerance. Up to 77times we are to forgive.

    Love Sister Ruth


    • JJ says:

      Ruth said: “But we don’t need to listen to what is not from the Father but are man made ideas. Tolerance in these things! No way.”

      Very good point Sister Ruth. We pray, read, and study God’s Word, and then the Spirit shows us the way in which we should walk. Our ear tells us if what we are hearing is in Christ or not.

      We don’t have to debate or fight about words, perfect love throws that (fear) outside and we can be united in our love and devotion to Jesus.


  78. DanielB says:

    I do too , bro. Greybeard, but only with the exception that ” Our understanding of bible prophecy differently ( DOES ) make us either wrong or right. ” But I know that our hearts are together on the more important matters of love and faith , and this is of primary concern .


    • greybeard says:

      Just because we think we are right doesn’t mean we are right but if we love God we are known by him. 1 Corinthians 8:2-3, “If anyone supposes that he knows anything, he has not yet known as he ought to know; But if anyone loves God, he is known by God.” 1 John 4:20 Having perfect knowledge is not possible in this time, showing love is. If we do not have love, we are nothing… 1 Corinthians 13: 1-13


  79. DanielB says:

    Amen .

    And we see the converse is true :

    Better than “supposing that we know something” ,

    Perfect knowledge exists in the Heavens above us ,

    and if we truely “have love” , Yehowah has us , who are something .

    The Isreal of God . -Your Brother


  80. Disappointed says:

    Amen to that dear sister and brothers!


  81. Ruth says:

    Dear bro Grey beard.
    If we do not have love we are nothing. So true. I was thinking seriously
    about this subject. after you post.

    You said perfect knowledge we will not have at this time? Well, I cannot agree with that one. If Yeshua said true followers will worship the Father in spirit and truth. Truth has to be perfect knowledge.
    Wouldn’t you agree? That does not indicate alone everything in the way of understanding will be given us all in one hit. YET!
    What l can see though, the holy spirits drawing true followers of the way from the normal thinking pattern also at the same time getting us back to basic love.
    Sisters and Brothers about his are indeed being taught truth. It is a gradual process. But! It is happening.

    We must believe this if we believe what Daniel wrote. Many would rove about and the true knowledge would be abundant in the final days. No one has to wrangle as it will be made “known” as clear as day in our hearts minds and souls.

    I remember when l was in my early 30s. The w/towers bible book of stories portrayed Yeshua as such a handsome man? Sisters used to talk about this looking on with fleshly eyes.
    In fact what the bible said about his appearance was completely the opposite!

    Satanic deception tried to get humans hearts to flutter when they saw this picture pulling them into
    a vacuum of lies and lust! “Oh yes this happened.” And most probably still does.

    “True Knowledge would have to be out there, Wouldn’t you agree? If thats the case then we would have to believe Yeshua our Messiah is certainly having a great part in teaching individuals the real truth. ” Come to me I will give you living water. John4 Revelation 22

    Goodness how I see true love as he extends his hand to us all right now. ‘
    Our Lord is begging us to get this picture of the simple yet effective way he gets through to people.

    I have found when 100s gather together as a religion the true meanings gets lost be cause in the end they become fleshly and carnal in there thinking! That alone begs the question to who’s hand ware they holding?

    No man out there is holding a firm grip on true followers? Teaching them about real love.
    love is not based on saying we only have to love each other.

    Its deeper, a real longing to do what is right. Treating others as we would treat ourselves.
    A sharing of the same heart and mind. Forging ahead in a love offered to us that can only come from above. Real love has the creator standing in the middle of everything we say or do.

    In a marriage its not two anymore. It indeed is a 3 fold arrangement. “That love can only last”.
    As we grow in the real simple love of the Father we understand so much more than we ever did before.
    If a spouse has an unbelieving partner it still can work. How? Because if the follower of the way lets the Father in, “He will guide his son or daughter to have a quite and mild spirit. To be more giving not expecting. I love this saying. “If you expect nothing you will never be disappointed.’
    There is more happiness in giving than receiving.

    No matter our situation this all is knowledge. Yes Knowledge is abundant even now.
    Simple? Only intelligent people can see the simpleness of the creator.

    Sister Ruth


  82. reader says:

    Dear All;
    All promises of God will be fulfilled to the letter or part thereof.
    There are two exception fields only:
    Promised calamity may be cancelled where a justified Mercy issue enters. [Rahab, Gibeonites, Ninevah in Jonah’s day].
    Promised good things may be cancelled, 1Samuel 2 v 30.
    To my knowledge no other kinds of exceptions exist.
    Promises regarding the Land of “Israel” will not change because the condition of the Jews is irrelevant to its position as Jehovah’s Land.
    Its in the Law: Leviticus 25 v 23 compare Ezekiel 38 v 16 to that.
    We should not get arrogant because of the Jews shortsightedness.
    We are only the dogs under the table.


Leave a Reply to DanielB Cancel reply

Website Apps