As most of you know the understanding that the witnesses have of the faithful and discreet parable cannot be correct.

First, as JJ pointed out in his post ” When did Jerusalem fall” all evidence shows Jerusalem did not fall in 607 BCE, therefore 1914 could not be the end of the Gentile Times and the prophecy/parable of the FDS could not have taken place in 1918/1919. The same conclusion can be had when one sees that with all probability Jesus began to reign in the first century.

Second, Matt. 24:46,47 says – Happy is that slave if his master on arriving (Strongs Greek word no. 2064) finds him doing so. Truly I say to you, He will appoint him over all his belongings.

Let us now read 1 Cor. 11:26 – For as often as you eat this loaf and drink this cup, you keep proclaiming the death of the Lord, until he arrives (Strongs Greek word no. 2064)

When Jesus arrives or comes (strongs greek word no. 2064) two things will happen. He will appoint the faithful slave over his belongings and Christians will no longer celebrate the Memorial of Jesus death. If the faithful slave has been appointed then the memorial should not be celebrated. If the Memorial is celebrated then Jesus still has not come and not appointed the faithful slave over his belongings. It cannot be both ways as the Society teaches.

Third, it says the master will appoint the faithful slave over all his belongings. What are Jesus’ belongings? Matt. 28:18 – …All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth.

Jesus rules over angels and human rulers at this time. Does the so-called faithful and discreet slave claim to rule at this time over angels and human rulers? If not, they cannot be the faithful and discreet slave.

Fourth, the Society claims they were appointed back in 1918/1919 because they were the only ones supplying the proper food at the proper time. An inspection of the literature of that time period will quickly convince someone that the spiritual food served at that time (for instance The Finished Mystery) was not the proper food.

Fifth, compare the parallel account of the FDS in Luke 12:41-48. That account not only talks about of faithful steward and an evil one, but also a slave that understood his master’s will but didn’t get ready and because of that will be beaten with many strokes and also a slave that didn’t understand his master’s will and therefore will be beaten with a few strokes. If there is a physical group that can be found in one organization that can be pointed to as the faithful and discreet slave. Then there should also be specific groups in certain organizations that can be pointed to as being not only the evil slave but also the few strokes group and the many strokes group. Those groups simply do not exist.

What then or who is the faithful and discreet slave? 1 Pet 4:10 helps us understand – In proportion as each one has received a gift, use it in ministering to one another as fine stewards of God’s undeserved kindness expressed in various ways.

Also 1 Cor. 4:2 – Besides, in this case, what is looked for in stewards is for a man to be found faithful.

We as Christians are all stewards of something. Some of us have certain abilities others of us have material goods other of us have considerable free time. How are we acting as stewards of these gifts of God? Are we faithful and discreet in the use of our gifts? If so we will receive the heavenly reward and be appointed over all Christ’s belongings when He comes. Or do we beat our fellow slaves by lording over them, demanding that they accept the dictations of our own conscience, and demanding they accept only our interpretations of even unclear bible passages? If so we will classified as an evil slave, or at the very least one who will receive many strokes.

Here are 5 reasons the understanding of the FDS of the witnesses cannot be correct. Did I leave any out?

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30 Comments on The Many Reasons That the JW Understanding of Matt. 24:45-51 Cannot be Correct

  1. Jolly Roger says:

    Wow, Andrew, I’m surprised at the title of your piece. I was kind of hoping you might use the MSM gimmick de jour and title it, “5 JW Myths About The FDS” or something similar. That way, I could have made some silly pun about “mything the point”. I would end being more laborious than usual in trying to refute each of your points; however, I am curious about your statement in reference to item #4. I have read the book you mentioned some time ago, and I was somewhat surprised and disappointed to find that it covered only the first 7 chapters of Revelation; however, not having actually lived in 1914/1918 it is difficult for me to assess whether or not “The Finished Mystery” was proper food at the proper time. Or, is that your point?

    Another point that I am curious about is whether you have ever led a group of human beings in an endeavor serious enough to be considered a “life and death” situation. From the piece here, I tend to lean towards, ummm, no, you haven’t. Now, don’t misunderstand my words, I am not saying you are deficient as a person, or less manly than you are, or not capable of leading people, I am simply saying that it doesn’t seem like you have had the experience. But, I could be wrong. When you lead people, you quickly find yourself as the “pivot” man; that is, to those you are leading your group against, you are the first target, and to those behind you, you are always in the way.

    Again, to debate or quibble over the five points you have made and the associated evidence you present is redundant. Trust me on this, Andrew, you are not the first person to have used these very same points in this very same argument. My only reply would be to ask you: where was the JW organization in 1918 and where are they today? Could such accomplishments have been made while being led by a group of religious tyrants? I have read many biographies of men, women, children who, because of their belief in the Jehovah and ALL of it’s organization, suffered the concentrated evil of Nazi Germany, i.e. Dachau, Treblinka, etc. It is hard to imagine these people standing firm against obvious and relentless savagery because they were afraid the FDS might beat them and kick them out of the congregation.

    One of the perennial constants about Hollywood movies are it’s use and distortion of reality to fit a preconceived stereotype. In one sense, stereotyping is a tools for the movies because it eliminates the need for explanation, and thus can save film time. For example, when you think of the life of the average British sailor during the Lord Nelson, wooden frigate days, what do you picture? Most Americans, thanks to Hollywood stereotyping, picture floggings and tyrannical captain Blighs, forcing their men to live like animals while the officers strut about the quarter-deck sipping tea and shouting orders. The truth was quite the opposite. As one historian pointed out: the British Navy was one of the most feared, efficient, and professional navies to have ever existed, and you don’t get that way by beating people.


    • andrew says:

      Hi JollyRoger,
      This article presents my opinion on the matter and no more. I am not interested in badgering anyone until they believe as I do. I presented the facts as I see them (many I’m sure see them differently) and let each one compare the bible and meditate on the facts so as to make up his or her own mind.


  2. Amos says:

    Hi Andrew,
    I agree once again with your views, as expressed here, a job well done.
    I also have the same view as yourself concerning the FDS, that it is not an organization(& never has been), but each one of those who are anointed. Each one feeds & helps others, with the “gifts” that they’ve been given by the spirit.


  3. Amos says:

    Hi Jolly Roger,
    Do you have an “agenda” to cause you to reply to Andrew as you have?
    As to what was called the Seventh Volume, The Finished Mystery, do you know why Rutherford had it written?
    I completely agree with Andrew that it was not food at the proper time. It was not written by Brother Russell, but by two other brothers following Russell’s death, with the intention of holding the then association of brothers together, it had the very opposite effect, causing a large split from the “new” movement under Rutherford.


    • Amos says:

      Jolly Roger, I forgot to include my comment on the following quote from your last post;

      ” My only reply would be to ask you: where was the JW organization in 1918 and where are they today? Could such accomplishments have been made while being led by a group of religious tyrants? I have read many biographies of men, women, children who, because of their belief in the Jehovah and ALL of it’s organization, suffered the concentrated evil of Nazi Germany, i.e. Dachau, Treblinka, etc. It is hard to imagine these people standing firm against obvious and relentless savagery because they were afraid the FDS might beat them and kick them out of the congregation.”

      My reply, Yes, the rapid growth could have been made with religious tyrants at the helm, but was it? We only need to have a look at any movement such as the papacy, to refute this arguement here, as they were absolute tyrants in their own right, (as was the early/mid Protestant movement), & yet the peasants blindly followed them, very similar to the WTS. I firmly believe that most if not all those concerned, did so because of their unwavering love for, faith, & belief in God, & not through fear of any GB….it is also very important to understand how different the WTS was at that time, as compared with today. Up until the N.H. Knorr period, things were apparently vastly different, change was gradual & progressive.

      As to the faithfulness of the individual JW’s during the war years & persecutions, we can see a similar loyalty within many religious & political arenas, to the JW’s, & by saying this, I’m not by any means playing down either what The JW’s went through or their motives for doing so….just stating facts as I see them.

      By making the previous two remarks, what I’m trying to get at is; what you have stated is no proof as to the authenticity & truthfulness of the WTS & it’s teachings, just the loyalty of the rank & file in following the leader, which I believe is their GB, as distinct from who it should be, our Lord & Master, Jesus Christ. This last point is with reference to much more recent growth within the JW’s.

      I hope that what I’ve said has come out right, as I’m extremely tired at the present moment.


  4. Jolly Roger says:

    Amos, Andy, such comments, and so prompt as well. I must apologize for my delay in getting back to you. Andrew, I’m glad that you cleared up the fact that hat you wrote was your opinion, as I wasn’t sure.

    Amos, you actually asked me if I have an “agenda”? Please, you must be a bit more precise than that. Unfortunately, the use of the word “agenda” by the MSM/Politico hacks that infest the system today have rendered the word, and it’s proper definition, as simply noise. I would try to guess as to your meaning but that would be unfair.


    “My reply, Yes, the rapid growth could have been made with religious tyrants at the helm, but was it? We only need to have a look at any movement such as the papacy, to refute this arguement here, as they were absolute tyrants in their own right,”

    Amos, I’m not quite sure of your view on western history, as the papacy is, was, and always has been a political/economic machine. The “religious” part of it has only been there to assist in making excuses: “We had to burn these South American natives’ villages down, steal their gold, and pretty much attempt to erase them from the face of the Earth after we’ve worked them to death in order to save them from hellfire!” The papacy couldn’t have cared less about religion or God, any more than the Romans did, because as long as you kept the money coming in, they didn’t care what you did or what you believed. The catholic church was supported by military force, and with the use of this force, they made themselves the only game in town, and this is the point that your answer tries so ardently to avoid: if you didn’t agree with the pope, well, too bad, you had one choice: to die – no, I don’t mean “spiritual” death, or death in the “hereafter”, I mean burned at the stake, six feet under, death. The last time I checked, the harshest punishment for disagreeing with what the JW’s believe is to be asked to either keep your complaints to yourself or leave, either way, it is your choice; however, now that you mention it, I have been wondering about that strange pile of ashes in the KH parking lot, hmmm.

    “As to the faithfulness of the individual JW’s during the war years & persecutions, we can see a similar loyalty within many religious & political arenas, to the JW’s, & by saying this, I’m not by any means playing down either what The JW’s went through or their motives for doing so….just stating facts as I see them.” Gosh, Amos, the facts “as you see them” is kinda the issue, now isn’t it. I’m curious, what other “religious & political arenas” are you talking about? The Jews? they had no choice, their crime was a matter of birth, Communists? they had no choice as they had made the wrong one about 1917, Gypsys? they had no choice for the same reason the Jews had no choice, but the JWs had a choice, all day, every day, they could have opted out. But maybe the JWs were just dupes who enjoyed being bullied by “tyrants”? Well, gosh, can you think of a bigger tyrant than Hitler, the JWs should have been flocking to him.

    Which encompasses the point of my reply (and why I included that blurb about the Royal Navy): you don’t get that kind of sacrifice, that kind of loyalty and dedication, that practical demonstration of love thru fear or bullying or threats. Now, I have a feeling about what your reply to this last sentence is going to be (and, yes, admittedly I am making an assumption here, so if I am wrong about what you are thinking at the moment, I apologize and stand corrected), something along the lines of, “Well, the SS and the Wehrmact were very dedicated men too. They willingly put their lives on the line for their beliefs in the tyrannical Hitler.” And, you’d be correct, but that was only at first. After a while, when the people began to catch on, they weren’t so happy, but by then it was too late. If they found themselves freezing to death in a blizzard outside Moscow, they didn’t get to just walk home in disgust. When they found themselves slinking from basement to basement in a burned out Berlin, they didn’t get to run on and on about that creep Hitler, because if somebody heard them they didn’t just get told, “Well, if you don’t like it then leave.” because that is what would have been answer to their prayers. Nope, if they got caught being a “defeatist” they were strung up from the nearest lamp post.

    As I stated in my reply, items 1,2,3 and 5 were old hat, I have heard them before in various guises, but #4 was unique for me and I wanted to learn more about it. (Gee willikers, guys, that’s why I’m here) Thank you Amos for adding your comment about it, I was not aware that it had caused a “split”. However, causing a “split” is certainly NOT surprising, after all, if there is one thing that seems to a near constant in and around the JW organization, it’s that somebody somewhere is upset about something and wants to split. I was similarly not aware that Russell didn’t write the “Thus Is Finished…” book; but then again, what difference does it make who wrote it? You’re pointing out that fact only served to reinforce the reasoning of the group who translated the NWT Bible and their statement that the names of the translators is not important except to those who want more ammunition to try to pick it apart.

    And, as far as it causing a split, well, gee, maybe there NEEDED to be a split? I mean, c’mon Amos, are you a cannibal? Are you a vampire? Because if your not, our “Lord & Master, Jesus Christ” says that you are doing it wrong!

    Rest up, Amos. I appreciate your responses and your concern. Like Andy, I am not here to “badger” anyone, I am here because “iron sharpens iron”.


    • andrew says:

      I’m curious JR what convinces you that the WTS is right about their FDS interpretation?


      • Amos says:

        Hi JR, it seems to me that you have used a plethora of words & yet have said very little. You certainly have not really addressed the points that I was making.
        To your surprise, I do understand much about world history, including the exploits & influences of the papacy. I was not however refering to their military ops, but to their ability to brainwash their adherents in the same manner as the WTS. I will not be drawn into any debates about any subject, so for this reason I will not respond to any comment that can end up in debate, as it’s totally pointless & I don’t have the time & energy to waste in this way.
        I am a little puzzled by your use of the scriptural expression, “iron sharpens iron”, as your posts on this thread do not give this impression.

        Like I said before, what is your agenda?

        Have you been sent here by the WTS, to infiltrate the ranks?

        Or are you totally ill-informed concerning the operations & policies of the WTS?

        Just another thing that stands out clearly is that you either know very little about the WTS & their history, or are trying to give this impression.


  5. rus virgil says:

    Hello all !
    here are my words regarding the “fds”
    please follow that thread

    rus virgil


  6. Jolly Roger says:

    Amos & Andy, without a doubt I have either touched a nerve or have given an answer that you aren’t used to hearing. As to my “plethora” of words, yes, you are correct, my propensity for verbosity is legendary; however, trust me on this, you guys got the Reader’s Digest version.

    “Infiltrate the ranks”? Amos, that was pretty good, but you might go back and look up the definition of the word “infiltrate” and remember that this is supposed to be a public forum. Oh, while you’re at it, look up the word “paranoid”. However, I must say that I appreciate the thought that I could accomplish by subterfuge and sneakiness what 7 million JWs, their history, books, and their activities cannot do. Oh, by the way, look up “dictator” and “tyrant” while you’re at it; however, if you can’t manage to find those, trust me, use this quote as a quintessential, practical example:

    “I will not be drawn into any debates about any subject, so for this reason I will not respond to any comment that can end up in debate, as it’s totally pointless & I don’t have the time & energy to waste in this way.” Gosh, I wonder what open-minded, enlightened, clear-thinking individual came up with this? Tell me, Amos, what would have replied if I had simply said, “No. You are wrong.”, and left it at that?

    But I digress.

    To properly reply to both of your last comments to me, I think it could be best summed up by answering Andy’s very poignant question:

    “I’m curious JR what convinces you that the WTS is right about their FDS interpretation?”

    Well, guys, in short: you do. Absolutely, positively, and without equivocation, I can say that what convinces me most about the validity of the WTS is you.

    Guys, do you realize what the absolute worst thing that I could do to you guys might be? It is simply this: agree with you. As I told you before, this isn’t the first ex-JW (or topicalJW or enlightenedJW or (whatever)JW) site that I have conversed on; however, I can assure you that the tone, theme, discussion, and subject matter are all the same: the JW’s are all phonies, unthinking automatons, being lied to and deceived by a small group of godless men twisting the scriptures for their own aggrandizement!

    Now, since Amos doesn’t want to reason or debate things, (apparently, we can either have to accept in total what he says the moment he says it or we can go to h3ll) I agree with you. That’s right guys, you are so completely right. Through nothing more than the purest logic, superior intellect, and unquestioned divine inspiration, you have convinced me that the JWs are are full of bunk!


    Now what?

    I’ll tell you what – absolutely nothing. Because you won’t have anything to say from that point on because you only speak and think in reactive mode, i.e. if you haven’t seen it or heard it in JW literature, you don’t talk about it. But then, in reality, you aren’t trying to convince me, you are trying to convince you.

    As I look at you posts, I see a methodology of examination, a way of reading the Bible and a style of searching the deeper meanings that can only come from one place. Examination and thought in the way you present your stuff do not come naturally to a person, they have to be taught and learned, and that raises of the question of where you learned these skills? Certainly you didn’t get them from your local Uni, the LDS, some catholic seminary, or some Baptist church group, and I know for absolute certain you didn’t get them from any public school system in western civilization (in the USA aka “the TV”). And yet, you claim that the basis of these skills is wrong. Huh? But okay, you guys are right as rain, now how long do the rest of us have to suffer you beating this dead horse? I mean, you have gone from turning this horse into slabs then chunks then hamburger and are closing in on equine-puree, but there you are, still beating away. One would think that, after a while, sheer exhaustion would overtake you, but it doesn’t.

    Okay, Andy, Amos, you’re spot on about the FDS, yessireebob, everybody is an FDS! So what? What has changed? This world still sucks. Oh, but you’re trying to save all these poor, misguided, disillusioned people who are being abused but are too “brainwashed” to simply get up and walk out the door if they don’t like it? Gosh guys, why no bing&ming about the catholic church, or the Muslims or the Hindus? They affect more people on this planet than the JWs, and, thus, they have a bigger influence over the purposes and sanctity of the name of your “Lord and Master, Jesus Christ” than the JWs ever have. Why aren’t you approaching the question of homosexuals in christendom’s churches? Is it wrong, is it right? The homosexuals can “prove” they are just as right and just as divinely ordained as you, but you choose, instead, to feel good about yourselves because you’ve “proven” some obscure, meaningless scripture about who’s the FDS. Gosh, guys, if the JWs are wrong it’s going to harm, what, 7 million people? How many people are going to be harmed if the Lutheran’s start telling everybody how good wearing a dress feels because their Pastors are a bunch of raging drag queens?

    But, okay, admittedly, bashing religions other than the JWs can be fraught with danger; after all, the JWs just think of you as a pack of soreheads ex-JWs who are mad because they didn’t get their way, while those other religions might actually fight back. So why don’t you talk about what an enlightened person of the AmosNAndy’s Church of Anything That Isn’t Jehovah’s Witnesses can expect in our future? Give me something upbuilding and positive that I can expect in the remainder of my life? Why are you always looking a century in the past? Is there going to be an end to this terrible system of things, and if so, what can I expect to replace it? Will it ever get better? How so? Am I going to h3ll if I don’t believe that God’s name is God and that he is three people in one and what he does and says in unknowable? Are we in the last days of this world, and will I get raptured into heaven on a celestial Transporter machine? If so, where can I get a ticket? And on and on…

    In short, your subject matter and reasonings are quite obvious and repetitive; however Andrew, you did make that heretofore unheard of statement in item #4 which is what prompted this whole discussion to begin with, and yet you won’t answer my question(s) about it. Why is that?


    • andrew says:

      I think you have misinterpreted me JR. The reason I wrote this column is not because the JWs are bad or unchristian. Not at all. In fact I am a JW. However the leadership claims something most other denominations don’t. They claim to be God’s spokesman, his channel, his prophet if you will.

      Wrong doctrine is totally excusable, after all we are all imperfect. However when you claim to speak for Jehovah God and claim you are the one and only channel he uses, you better be speaking the truth. Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, and other men also claimed to be spokesmen for God. Is the Watchtower Society being used by God in the same way as those men? The society has claimed to be the Jeremiah class, the Ezekiel class, the John class etc. but have the society’s pronouncements proven to be just as true as the truly inspired prophets of old?

      The Finished Mystery has many errors in it. Note one example on pg. 230 that tries to prove the furlongs mentioned in rev. 14:20 refers to the distance between where the Finished Mystery was written and the Brooklyn New York.

      These type of wild speculations are typical of the thinking of imperfect men. Therefore I have come to the conclusion that that is what the GB is, sincere, imperfect men who have been misled into thinking that they and they alone are God’s spokesmen and unique in the world of mankind.

      I think there are many true christians amongst the JWs. I just don’t think that all true christians are to be found in the organization. I have no desire whatsoever to have anybody follow me. I would hate to think that anyone could lose out on eternal life because they were following men and not Christ.

      There are many good things about the JW organ., but they are not unique.


    • andrew says:

      JR, I’m not trying to make you upset when I say that if the No. 1 reason you believe in the divine appointment of the GB is because of myself or others on this site you really need to take time to read the bible without other people telling you what it says. This includes JW literature, christendom’s commentaries and “apostate” literature. Pray sincerely for guidance and meditate. I hope I haven’t offended you with this suggestion.


  7. Jolly Roger says:

    Concerning your last reply, I “really need to take time to read the bible without other people telling you what it says”. Does this “other people” include you? What makes you think that I haven’t read the Bible? Is it because I don’t agree with you? Gee, that’s kinda of, like , umm, uh, what’s the word, oh yeah, “tyrannical” don’tcha think? From past experience, (not with you personally) pretty soon you’re gonna be telling me, “Well, you need to read it in the original Greek to really understand it.”

    Andy, think about what you are saying. You don’t want people to follow men, yet it was men from whom you have the knowledge that you currently possess; plus, if someone does anything you suggest that would mean that they are following you, an admitted man, and therefore they would immediately loose a chance at eternal life. By your logic, if any one of us does anything that anyone else suggests, we’re immediately goners (and, please, don’t try to pull the Matt19:26 thingy on me). You admit that humans are imperfect and err, yet you expect the JW leadership to be more than human, why is that? Moses was guilty of manslaughter, Elijah weenied out over Jezebel’s threat and went and hid in a cave, David got the hots for Bathsheba, Peter told Jesus to scam out of his deal with God, Paul had Christians executed, but the GB mentions furlongs in Brooklyn and that’s it, game over!?! (If the furlong thing is what caused the “split” mentioned by Amos, well, I’m sorry and all, but something was going to get those guys sooner or later.)

    I realize that, over the years, many innocent, trusting, brothers and sisters were hurt, sometimes quite traumatically, over miscalculations or mis-statements, or (in many more cases than we sometimes care to admit to ourselves) mis-applications of statements by the GB, and I realize this because I was one of those who got hurt. But where can you go? Because I didn’t continue my education and have had to settle for lesser-paying jobs because “the new system is so close, why I can stick my tongue out and taste it!” (yes, I actually heard a member of the GB make that statement at a district convention. Around 15 years ago.) what can be done? Am I supposed to go to some idiot pentecostal church and end up with my eyes rolled back in my head while I babble incoherently and froth at the mouth in some insane palsy of emotional fervor, while onlookers applaud and shout “Believe on Jesus!”, all the while proving nothing more than, at the root, humans are just pretty darn stupid?

    Jesus told his followers that they were going to have to become cannibals and vampires in order to be his followers and a bunch of them got up in disgust and left, absolutely certain that the boss had finally gone off his rocker. I’ve often tried to imagine the conversation between the members of the exiting group, what do you think it was like? I’m pretty sure the phrase, “‘Messiah’ my butt.” was not an uncommon utterance. Obviously, there was a reason Jesus said what he had said, and in the way that he had said it. The group got whittled down to 12 finalists, and even Jesus had to ask them why they hadn’t left as well.

    Andrew, relax. Put on some soothing music and think about the “There are many good things about the JW organ.” and if you have the time, please write some of them down in a post to the forum, as I would love ti hear them.


    • Andrew says:

      Hi Jr
      Yes, that would include me. Until one has a firm grip on what the bible says by reading it many times through he can be “tossed by the waves and blown around by every wind of teaching, by human cunning with cleverness in the techniques of deceit.”

      After one has a solid knowledge of the scriptures then it is good to examine what others say to see if what they say is biblical.


  8. Amos says:


    You need to understand that it was Rutherford who introduced apostacy into the WTBTS shortly after CT Russell’s death….this is the reason why so many BS’s let the WTBTS between 1917 & by about 1930.
    It wasn’t a matter of, quote;
    “but something was going to get those guys sooner or later.”
    You need to realize the facts of what was happening at the time!!!
    Each succeeding “president” & later “governing body” has continued to adulterate the truth of scripture, to keep the rank & file under control.


    • Jolly Roger says:

      Amos, good to hear from you.

      Sooooo, that means you think that the guys who LEFT the org between 1917 & 1930 were the right ones? Well, gosh golly, Amos, what happened to those guys? What are their meetings like? What do they believe? Do they still exist as a group, or did they just fade away into the sea of humanity while they followed Jesus?

      “Each succeeding “president” & later “governing body” has continued to adulterate the truth of scripture, to keep the rank & file under control.” Yep, there’s nothing that keeps mindless minions under control than letting them freely leave whenever they feel like it. Why, I can’t even imagine how many of those tear-stained, soulless eyes would suddenly brighten with new found hope, happiness, and love as they shouted in joy and headed for the KH exits if they only knew that they themselves were actually the FDS and that all they would have to do is follow Jesus Christ. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve heard someone mutter, “Boy, if only I was an FDS too, why, then I would follow Jesus!” as they salved each others stripes and helped each other to stand before the bayonets came out to force them to plod the streets again, vainly trying to GIVE AWAY the latest magazines of lies that never did any good for anybody.

      Amos, let’s set these scriptures about the FDS aside, just for a moment, and think about this. A small question of logic: but WHY would these dastardly group of cretins known as the GB bother to so diligently teach the JWs how to study the Bible, (in some cases even teaching them how to read) any Bible, not just the NWT, or how to use the common tools that are available to check facts to verify what they are learning? Why go thru the effort to teach these mindless minions how to speak in public, how to be polite, how to dress acceptably, eat right, how to maintain sanitary conditions at all time, how to stay mentally and physically healthy, how their body works, how to talk to doctors and lawyers and prepare themselves and the their little mindless minions in case their beliefs are tested? To what purpose do the GB so ardently strive to keep the rank & file under control? Do they get money from them? I’ve never been asked or told that I HAD to cough up so much as a nickel, and I don’t know anyone else who has ever been told that they needed to either. Were you ever boosted for any money? Wow, I’d like to hear about that. So, if it isn’t money, then what is it? Power? Power over what? If the minions don’t like what they are hearing, they can leave, with exhibit A in this regard being you. Where’s the power in that?
      Another part of that same question: why in the world would these blaspheming heathens spend the time and effort to try to teach the truth in the Bible to peasants in the poorest countries of the world? Of what purpose, either financially or political, would there be in convincing a bunch of poverty stricken, diseased, illiterate, starving Guatemalan peasants the Bible? Or Ecuadorians, or Congolese, or Tibetan, or Peruvian or any of the 170 odd lands on planet Earth that the JW’s have spread to? (sometimes in direct opposition to factions that could and did offer them money and power to either stay out or teach them what the government wanted) Who, in this modern world, would give two shakes about a starving Sri Lankan family who, at their most valuable moment in life, are worth less than the hubcaps on your car? I cannot name them personally, but I can tell you their personality traits, and it certainly doesn’t include lying, cheating, or dominating. What do you think?


      • Dennis says:


        I am sure I’m going to regret this but here goes. After reviewing your posts it seems you have a lot to say as to why you think that the identity of the FDS of Matt. 24 is the current day Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses. What’s missing from your anecdotal arguments is SCRIPTURAL PROOF! Now, maybe you just haven’t gotten to that yet. If that’s the case, you should know that I am ready to believe if someone can prove this from the Bible without a bunch of mental gymnastics. Proof from the Bible, scripture and verse. I will never put my faith in men or an organization without scriptural proof, especially in light of the Lords warnings of false prophets in the last days. I sure you can appreciate that position. If the claim is being made that a particular group of men fulfill such a vital roll as the FDS of Matt. 24 then it’s incumbent upon the one making the claim to prove it from the scriptures, without a bunch of anecdotal evidence, mental gymnastics or circular reasoning. So where can I look in the Bible to prove such a claim?



      • Eve says:

        Hi Jolly Brother,
        I would like to react to only one thought of yours, you say: “Yep, there’s nothing that keeps mindless minions under control than letting them freely leave whenever they feel like it.” Yes, of course, Kingdom Halls are not prisons, still, we cannot say they can leave freely because if they are disfellowshipped for thinking something else than the GB does, they cannot talk any more to the witness members of their family and their witness friends, which comprise the most (if not only) part of them. This can cause much pain beside that caused by their disappointment. These persons became and remained witnesses because they really believed the society explained the Bible in the right way, they believed this was the only right way of life, then they realize it is not, so their consciences urge them to do something about it. You ask what reasons the GB could have to do the shepherding of the flock other than those coming from a noble intention on the basis of believing they are chosen to do this task. I don’t deny that many members felt and feel so today but what I read in Ray Franz’s book makes me think that many did not and may not today. Anyway, even if we do not know why they are doing this work will not change the fact that decision making described in that book did not happen in the way it should have, in the way if could have been expected from shepherds having God’s spirit and guidance who well knew that their decisions would have an enormous effect on many people’s lives who thought they were obeying God himself by obeying the GB. I’m sure you have read that book (Crisis of Conscience) and know what I am talking about.

        Otherwise, Jolly Brother, I enjoy your humour and can see that you are a thinking man which is good. One thing I remember I was slightly shocked at was when I read in the Kingdom Ministry that we are not allowed to study the Bible on our own and do research in just any books but instead, we are to do that in the Society’s books and publications alone. (And the Society knew most witnesses would obey even though they knew they could not be caught red handed in the solitary of their own rooms.)Why? What harm can come from sincere and Bible loving individuals doing research on their own? As Ray Franz put it somewhere in his book: “I did not believe that truth had anything to fear from open discussion, any reason to hide from careful scrutiny. Any teaching that had to be shielded from such investigation did not deserve to be upheld.”
        I could not agree more with this statement.
        The best to you, Brother.


        • DanielB says:

          Dear Eve ;

          I focus on what you said here , ” One thing I remember I was slightly shocked at was when I read in the Kingdom Ministry that we are not allowed to study the Bible on our own and do research in just any books but instead, we are to do that in the Society’s books and publications alone. ”

          This is something I have recently heard here on this blog from another source . This is AMAZING to me , though not SHOCKING , (since I have become savvy to the WTS mindset) . While I was officially a witness , it was often echoed how the Society had said that Catholics were disuaded by their officials from reading the Bible on their own , without the Catholic literature to give them the “real Bible understanding” . Do you mean to say here that “Jehovah’s Witlessness” are now being told the same thing that they criticised the Catholics over ? How much more evidence do their flock need that it is plain and simple . . . A CULT ?

          Then you quoted Brother Ray as saying , “Any teaching that had to be shielded from such investigation did not deserve to be upheld.” And he was absolutely right .

          Well that’s a real easy reference to the noble-minded brothers in the 1st century who carefully examined the Scriptures to see if what they were hearing was really Biblically so . ( the Boroeans ) . . . What’s next with this cult ? Remove Acts 17: 11 (about the noble-minded Boroeans) from their translation ???

          I suffer daily , just knowing that my dear children and long-lost friends are still in that cult . Pray for them with me if you will . I well-up in tears . . .


  9. JJ says:

    Jolly Roger

    Point number four in Andrew’s post has been dealt with in great detail by at least three individuals I know of. Here they are:

    1. Don Cameron, in his book Captives of a Concept

    2. Peter Gregerson in his PDF/booklet Is The Watchtower God’s Only Organization? (freely available online)

    3. Ron Frye, former circuit overseer, in his PDF/booklet The Faithful and Discreet Slave


  10. Amos says:

    I will however add concerning the collection of money. Yes We have been repeatedly asked to dig deep in our pockets to supply money for various reasons such as, the CO’s car (we had to pay ALL his expenses while in our cong), almost every service meeting we were reminded not to walk past the contribution boxes without putting money in, at each & every circuit, district & national convention, the same requests were made. So where were you hiding during ALL these announcements? I could go on about the penthouses for the GB members, the expensive suits of the CO’s DO’s Bethelites, etc, but why should I?


    • Jolly Roger says:

      Amos, you mean that some elder actually walked up to you and demanded 50 bucks for gas!?! Ouch! In the congregations that I have been in the most they would ever do is announce that the congregation needed help “to meet their financial obligations” and read a scripture or two about how “true” Christians would have love among themselves and stuff like that. I gave what I gave. I once asked a Brother when a person knew that he had given enough, I mean, you can always give one more dollar (or hour) and he replied, “Be honest. You know when you have given enough.” and that was that.

      Wow, the GB stay in Penthouses? Cool! Say, do you have any evidence for that? Maybe, rent receipts or something? Did the GB pay the rent out of org funds, or did somebody spring for them, like, uh, Bernie Madoff?

      Amos, I have never known any portion of the MSM to pass up a chance to “expose” the Watchtower Society. As a matter of fact, I learned that the org had changed it’s stance on the “this generation” belief from Newsweek magazine BEFORE I read it in the Watchtower. The Newsweek article was titled “Apocalypse Later” (which I thought was kinda witty). Now, if the GB all resided next door to Bernie, are you trying to tell me that this wouldn’t be plastered all over Time, Newsweek, CNN, Fox News, The Washington Post, etc, etc.

      I did, however, once run across an article in the Catholic Encyclopedia that was supposedly about JWs and it scornfully mentioned a house that had been built for Judge Rutherford in (I think) San Diego in (get this) 1934!! I can’t go two days without reading about some corruption in the USG or the some catholic priest being charged with buggering some kid, or some pentacostal minister running off with the church funds, and these guys had to go all the way back to some obscure thing in 1934 to try and slime the GB. No offense, Amos, but Christendom the USG, and the MSM are pros at this stuff and would like nothing better than to take the heat off themselves by pointing to the JWs and saying, “But what about them! Look at them look at them.” but I can’t find anything. Hmmm.

      (BTW according to what I could find out about the San Diego house incident, reputedly, the thing had been donated by a Brother for the specific use by Rutherford (although I don’t think Rutherford ever used it, but I cannot be certain of that). Now, what an individual does with his or her money is their biz, it’s up to them and their conscience.)


      • Amos says:

        JR, you are not addressing the same points that I have, so all I can say is that until you can post in a rational manner……all I’ll say is…….zippo

        Other than I’m not knocking the WTS as you obviously think that I am, all I’m doing is pointing out what I personally know is/has happened. I do the same about any religious system, BUT, BUT, BUT, I will also stand up for them when lies are told about them. I don’t know who any of the jackalls are that you have named, as I don’t watch any of those type of programs or read their literature.


  11. Jolly Roger says:

    Dennis, Hello! I am happy to hear from you.

    First of all Dennis, I must sincerely apologize to you. I’m serious here, I do not want you (or anyone else) to ever feel like you will ever regret saying anything to me. Ever. (Unless, maybe, it’s something like, “Hey! I just set your car on fire!”, y’know something like that) Harry Truman was was kind of a clown, but he did say a few things correct, and “If you can’t stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen.” is one of them. Now, I might take exception with HOW you say some things to me, like “You’re as ugly as a mud fence!” because that really doesn’t help me think. (although, come to think of it, that is a fairly accurate statement) Again, I am here to learn, to think, to reason, and to be taught, “iron sharpens iron”, “if you never play against someone better than you, you never get any better at it”, and so on.

    Now as to your point: “What’s missing from your anecdotal arguments is SCRIPTURAL PROOF!”

    First off, there are three definitions for the word “anecdotal”, the first two are not what I think you were getting at; however, #3 is:

    anecdotal (adj):
    based on personal observation, case study reports, or random investigations rather than systematic scientific evaluation: anecdotal evidence.

    Now, not trying to beg your question, but which part(s) do you feel consists of anecdotes?

    Your question is indeed and good one, and when a decision is to be made about spiritual things, one should always have spiritual references. To the restless sea of humanity, a simple shout of “Allah Akbar!”, or “Believe on Jesus!” seems to be enough evidence to prove something, because they all smile and give their money away. Yes, I agree with you, scriptural references are paramount, but do you know where you will end up if that’s all you ever seek, all that you demand, and all you need? Well, I’ll tell you, you’re gonna end up having to hire froggy little native boys to push your elevator buttons for you, because if you push the buttons yourself, you are a blasphemer, because it’s considered blasphemous to “work” on the Sabbath. You will have to consult your local high priest (yes, even after you’ve consulted the high priest of your local government building code enforcement) if you want to add on to your house so he can tell you which brick is “scripturally” required to be laid first.

    Dennis, you are doing the same thing Amos ‘n Andy were doing: demanding exactitude where none is possible. That’s right Dennis, there are times when you just ain’t gonna find a scripture that says, “Oh, by the way, the good guys are going to reside in Brooklyn, New York, zip code 00666.” (Isaiah 67:3) Dennis, is it scriptural for man to send robots to Mars?, why do we wear suits to the KH?, if every living thing has been given to us and anything we take into our bodies that we first give thanks for is considered blessed, and we are to obey man’s laws unless they conflict with the Bible, what’s wrong with smoking pot? – Prove it by the Bible.

    There is a couple of points that I have made in past replies that Amos ‘n Andy have quite studiously avoided (their silence being thunderous) and that is the part where Jesus tells his followers something that they don’t want to hear, something that makes many of them certain that Jesus is a fraud. (Dennis, I am assuming here that you know what I am talking about, because if you need the Scriptural reference to this incident then I’m pretty sure that you are really not qualified to be part of the discussion here.) The question I asked about this incident is
    why did Jesus give this spiritual food at that time and why did he phrase it the way that he did? I’ll pause while you think about it. (Cue the Jeopardy music.) Okay, times up, pencils down. (Now, remember that, as a teacher, Jesus continually implored us to imitate him, although the world chooses to adore him instead.) Think about it, Jesus could have said, “Boys, it’s gonna get tough down the road, but always remember that if you do what I say and do what I do you’ll be okay.” or maybe, “Guys, take my words, my sayings, and make them part of you, because otherwise the evil one will have a greater chance of winning and you losing your ticket into Heaven.”, but he didn’t. Instead, he told them that they were going to have to become cannibals and vampires if they expected to see the Kingdom of Heaven.

    You can say that the words he used were just metaphoric, to impress the importance of the situation, the gravity of the times, the seriousness of tasks at hand and blah blah blah. But you know the real reason: it was time to clean house. Without a doubt, Jesus’ miracles and words had gathered quite a throng of followers; and, doubtlessly, many of them were just there because, “Hey, this guy puts on a great floor show and gives away free fish dinners!” and with one sentence (under-divine inspiration), he separated the men from the boys.

    One final word on the “SCRIPTURAL PROOF” aspect. A court of law is designed to do the following: allow one side to present evidence that supports it’s argument, then the other side presents it’s evidence, and then the judge or jury decide which side’s evidence is the most compelling. If you ever go to law school, the first thing they will teach you about court-room technique is to limit the evidence that is allowed to be presented to only that which supports your argument.


  12. Eve says:

    Dear Daniel,
    You can see here the full text of the Question Box in the 2007 September Kingdom Ministry which I had in mind. (scroll a little lower, please)
    It talks first of all about groups not individuals but don’t we read in the Bible that where two or three people come together in Jesus’ name he will be there with them?
    The interesting thing is that the scripture you refer to about the more noble minded Beroeans is actually used a lot at meetings and we are encouraged to follow their example but of course only from the Society’s publications. But isn’t it a bit weird to check someone’s credibility from their own publications? I don’t think that the noble minded Beroeans’ possibilities of research were also narrowed down in this way.
    For my part, I was never really obedient in this respect (consequently not a real good witness :), I always read what I wanted to read about the witnesses and the Bible, otherwise I would not be here. I am in a somewhat better position to do that than most of the witnesses in my country (Hungary) because naturally there is much more available material in English than in my mother tongue. So I am happy for this, this is a great site and there are some other good ones too. There is one in Hungarian as well (maybe more) and Ray Franz’s book is almost entirely translated into my language.
    I’m sorry that you lost your children and friends because of the Society’s policy. I prayed for them and I hope that you can get some comfort with the passing of time. I don’t wish to be disfellowshipped myself lest I should lose my friends too so I don’t know yet what will happen. I was not in the ministry at all last month so I will surely be asked about it. Fact is I no longer care if I will be labelled as inactive but I would not want to hurt my friends.
    Wishing you the best,


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