Are there Christians who are born again and Christians who are not born again? Are there anointed Christians who partake of the Lords meal and non-anointed Christians who do not partake? Are there Christians that go to heaven and Christians that stay on Earth? Jehovah’s Witnesses would say YES to all three of these questions. What does Gods word the Bible tell us?

Jesus Christ said at John 3:3 “Most truly I say to you, Unless anyone is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” Since all Christians pray for Gods Kingdom to come wouldn’t all Christians expect to see Gods Kingdom? It certainly appears that being “born again” is required by Christ in order for anyone to be a Christian.

How about anointed Christians who partake of the  Lords meal.  Are their Christians who are not required to partake of this? Jesus said at John 6:53, “Accordingly Jesus said to them: “Most truly I say to YOU, Unless YOU eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, YOU have no life in yourselves.” That sounds very clear does it not. Certainly this would be a requirement for all Christians partaking of the Lords meal.

Are their some Christians with a heavenly hope and some with an Earthly hope? Jesus said at John 14:2-3, “In my Father’s house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.” So Jesus made it clear that the hope for all Christians is to live with Christ and his father in heaven, Jesus never spoke of another hope for his Christian followers. This does not mean that nobody will live on Earth.  However for true Christians the hope is a heavenly one.

Jehovah’s Witnesses have made over 6 million people today believe that they are true Christians with a Earthly hope. They do not partake of the Lords meal and they are not born again.  Christ is not their mediator but man is. They bow down to what they call, “the faithful and discreet Slave”.

Hopefully those who are Jehovah’s Witnesses will see the lies they are being taught and come into a real relationship with Christ Jesus.

Christian love,

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50 Comments on Are Their Two Types of Christians?

  1. Jayme says:

    Hi GreyBeard,

    I agree that there are not 2 types of christians. I however believe that the Kingdom encompasses both heaven and earth and that to see the Kingdom we must be followers of Christ brought into a reconciled condition with our Father. I dont think its wrong to entertain either earthly or heavenly hope since in the end it is not us who chooses but God. I believe it all will be much more wonderful than we can even imagine!
    We are seperated from God by sin and the ONLY way to be reconciled to Him is thru Jesus Christ so since this problem confronts All mankind I can see no other way for anyone who wants to be redeemed other than coming to Christ regardless of heavenly or earthly hopes. So in effect ALL must be christians. I believe labeling only those who have a heavenly hope as “true christians” divides in much the same way as the WT “anointed” interpretation. That being said I do however believe that those who do ultimatly find their reward on thrones with Christ will be those christians who go above and beyond.


    • Jayme says:

      May I also say that I feel the goal to which we should be striving is that of ruling together with Christ. That call is still open and until it is closed it should be our aim.


    • Amos says:

      Brother Jayme, I can understand your viewpoint as stated, as this is what I also believed, until I did my research. I will post what I have come to understand ASAP, but due to temporal commitments, can’t right now, as it is very indepth.
      Simply put, it appears there is only one “class, one destiny” of christians, at the present time. Exactly what that “destiny” is might be the point, as I’ve uncovered a some scriptural thoughts that surprised even myself. I can’t say any more about this at present, as it is a very big discussion, that I don’t have the time to do it justice at the moment.
      I hope you can accept the fact that the 144,000 & the Great Crowd actually have the same destiny, & are of the same calling, & are not two different groups as such, but are taken from two diferent sectors of humanity. It appears the 144K are taken from Israel, & the GC are taken from the Gentile nations, & will become, “one flock under one sheppard.” The Gentiles are the “other sheep” who accept Christ as their saviour & are anointed, the same as the 144K, with the same destiny.
      Just a brief outline.



  2. Amos says:

    Excellent & simply stated Br. Greaybeard. This is another of my pet topics that contradicts the WTS. There is ample scriptural proof to show that there is only “one call, one hope, one destiny” during the “Gospel Age” prior to Armageddon.
    Those who call themselves christians, but are not of this class, (not every one saying to me Lord, Lord, will enter into the Kingdom of heaven) are however placing themselves in a better position for the “next age” following Armageddon, as they will have a headstart in desiring to bring their lives into complete uniformity with what is required of them at that time….basically back to what Adam was, before the fall into sin.
    There is much to be said on this subject, in explanation & correction of simple bible understanding that has been completely adulterated into false belief & false hope. In my view, it is absolutely scandalous that millions of people have been, “told a lie” to this extent. This all began in Rutherford’s time, when he changed the understanding of this simple truth.



    • Jayme says:

      brother Amos,

      I would look foreward to reading a future essay by you as to how you currently view these things.

      Briefly I would like to comment on your referance to Matt. 7:21. You said:
      “Those who call themselves christians, but are not of this class, (not every one saying to me Lord, Lord, will enter into the Kingdom of heaven) are however placing themselves in a better position for the “next age””

      While I agree this is speaking of those who call themselves christian, I do not think these ones are in any kind of an approved posision. Rather it seems that these ones spoken of here are in fact the same as the weeds of Matt 13:24-30. Notice that Jesus had just been speaking of trees and fruitage and then he states that every tree not producing fine fruit gets cut down and thrown into the fire. Then he ties it together and speaks plainly saying that not all those professing to follow Him are truly doing so, just as the wheat and the weeds.

      Also in verse 23 he says “I never knew you”. Could it truly be said of the many from this age who genuinly come to Christ but dont find themselves in this “class” and come to find themselves on earth in the next age, that Jesus actually never knew them?
      What a disallusionment, maybe he wasnt really their mediator either? Is Romans really for every believer or do we have to graduate to that? Perhaps we may be confusing (1)the arrangement of having our sins forgiven and now being righteous before God with (2)the rewards that are held out to us once we are in this reconciled position, provided we remain faithful.


      • Amos says:

        Brother Jayme, you make some very good points, & I generally agree with you. When you really get the points that Jesus was making in Matt.13, you will understand that He was refering to the Jewish nation firstly. They had rejected him as the Messiah, & when we tie this passage in with the illustration He gave concerning the “wild olive” (Gentiles) being grafted into the olive tree (Israel), & link this in with the true vine, we see that He is really now talking about the “church”. I am not refering to any religious organization when I say “church”, but to those who are the individual anointed christians during the “gospel age”.

        The weeds are ALL those “who claim to be followers of Christ”, (most of churchianity), but prove false to His standards. I don’t believe that most of them were ever in an anointed position, without judging them, of course.

        I did not mean that those who are like the non-anointed JW’s fall into this category, (those who are trying their best to serve God) but I think that a lot of these ones, may well be of the anointed, but are being denied their just position by the GB’s false doctrine of the 144,000.
        I will explain this more fully as time permits later.

        WCL, Amos


        • Amos says:

          I will add, that I’ve come across some very good scriptures that we all know, but find it impossible to grasp the real sense of, through WTS glasses, we need to remove these, before we can see the real truth of much of the scriptures.
          With the new understanding of each of these verses, it’s like the scales falling from our eyes, or like fine tuning a microscope to see things with more clarity, it gets clearer & clearer with each new understanding.


  3. andrew says:

    Greybeard, good post. I agree 100%


  4. andrew says:

    If one reads Rom. chap. 8 with an open mind it is very easy to see that the only 2 groups are 1) Those in whom the spirit dwells and are sons of God 2) those who are fleshly and don’t have the spirit. Which one are we? If we don’t claim to be God’s sons or we don’t think the spirit dwells in us and we don’t cry out “Abba”, then by default we are fleshly, dead in God’s sight.

    I believe this whole 2 types of christians teaching came about by giving a literal interpretation of the number 144000. Rutherford saw that soon there would be more than 144000 JWs, and then he would be up a creek without a paddle. So instead of saying the number 144000 was symbolic, he invented the whole 2 class system. This system has also conveniently elevated the members of the slave class in the eyes of the so-called other sheep, and made it easier to lord it over the faith of the rank and file.

    The Society claims that the “other sheep” have all the responsibilities of a christian that is part of the bride class, but with none of the benefits. Take for instance 1 Cor.6:9 ” What do you not know that unrighteous persons will not inherit God’s kingdom…” Only those of Christ’s bride class will inherit God’s kingdom, then why would those who don’t even claim to be in line to inherit the Kingdom be held to any kind of standard? How can anything in the letters written by Paul, Peter, James, Jude, or John by applied to one who doesn’t claim to be part of the ecclesia or “the called ones”, the bride of Christ?

    When one divorces himself from the mindset of the 2 class system of the JWs, it becomes so clear that you wonder how it is you ever read the bible believing in 2 types of christians. It also opens up a wonderful opportunity to be in a close relationship which Jehovah and his Christ. You can be a son of God right now! You can be justified or declared righteous right now! You have opened before you, if you conquer, the greatest privilege ever offered to an imperfect human being! When I realized this my love for God and my desire to serve him literally skyrocketed.

    To teach others that Jesus isn’t their mediator and they aren’t sons of God at this time and that they haven’t been declared righteous on the basis of Jesus’ blood and that their eternal life depends on sticking close to the “slave class”, in effect robs those christians of a wonderful close relationship with Jesus and his Father.


    • Jayme says:

      Hi Andrew, I just gotta say “AMEN!” to what you said quoted below:

      “It also opens up a wonderful opportunity to be in a close relationship which Jehovah and his Christ. You can be a son of God right now! You can be justified or declared righteous right now! You have opened before you, if you conquer, the greatest privilege ever offered to an imperfect human being! When I realized this my love for God and my desire to serve him literally skyrocketed.”


  5. greybeard says:

    Very well said Andrew. I agree 100%


  6. JJ says:

    I appreciate the thoughtful comments on Brother Greybeard’s post.

    This is a huge doctrinal point. I find myself vacillating back and forth and the one thing I feel that is lacking in all the information on this page is deep study and scriptural backing. I’d be interested in Brother Amos’s further research he referred to.

    Also, I read about a book called “Where Is The Great Crowd Serving God?” written by Jon Mitchell, former secretary to the Governing Body. I have tried to find his book but haven’t be able to. Does anyone have this book?

    A summary of the book with some discussion of the original Greek words appear on the site:

    This is a deep and fundamental topic. I am still not convinced either way right now. Questions in my mind are things like:

    1. Rev. 5:9,10 talks of those in heaven being kings and ruling over the earth. “You can’t have all chiefs and no Indians” as the saying goes.

    2. Who does the choosing? God and Christ? Or we ourselves? This is something the Bible Students have said, that a person can CHOOSE to go for the heavenly hope. This doesn’t make sense to me.

    3. Psalms 37 and other places talk of people living forever on the earth. How does this harmonize with the “everyone is going to heaven” reasoning?

    As you can see I don’t feel that we have all the answers just yet, and am asking out of sincerity. There are so many things to study and figure out now that “all bets are off” when it comes to WTS teachings. As many of us have agreed, much of what they teach is correct. But a lot isn’t…there’s the problem!


    • andrew says:

      JJ, I appreciate your open-mind on this subject. I will briefly cover some of your questions as I believe the bible teaches.

      1) I believe you are having a hard time because you believe what the Society teaches on Armageddon, that all who aren’t JWs will be destroyed. Read Zach. 14: especially vs. 16-19. Also compare Zeph. 2:11. Now remember in Rev. that Armageddon is against the armies that have been gathered, not all of mankind. Although the destruction will be great in Arm. , it appears that most people will survive Arm. to live during the 1000 yr. reign of Christ and his bride. So those who conqueor will rule over these survivors and their children.

      2) I personally do not believe that there are 2 hopes for christians. The only hope for a christian is the heavenly one. I do believe however that a vast amount of nominal christians alive during the second coming of Jesus will not be raptured. They will be abandoned to whatever happens to them. All is not lost if they are not raptured, if they survive arm. they with everybody else will be ruled over by Jesus and the faithful christians.

      3) I believe the earth will be inhabited forever by perfect people. Those who survive arm. will have to accept Jesus’ rule, many will willingly do so and become God’s people here on earth. Although death and sin will continue during the 1000 yrs those who follow Christ’s rule will be blessed. (Isaiah 65:20-25)


      • Amos says:

        Brother Andrew, I completely agree with your comments, as I believe this is what the scriptures are telling us.



      • andrew says:

        I forgot to add that the burden of proof for earthly life for the christian is on those who say there will be faithful christians living on earth. Never does Paul or any other of the writers of the Greek Christian Scriptures hold out any other hope for christians other than the heavenly hope.

        If Judge Rutherford hadn’t made the interpretation that he made, all JWs would believe their hope was in heaven.


        • Amos says:

          Brother Andrew, it may well be that the only ones to be called “christians”, are those who are called, chosen & anointed, during the “gospel age.” As we know, a “christian” is a footstep follower of Christ…. with the intention of YHWH, that these ones will rule as “kings & priests over the earth”, for the thousand years.

          Those not of the anointed who may survive Armageddon, along with those of the second resurrection, will probably make up a race of perfected humans, as was Adam in the beginning before the fall.

          BTW, I fully agree with you about the Judge.

          WCL, Amos


    • Amos says:

      Brother JJ, I have a copy of Br. Jon’s book, & he explains this topic very well. The link is as follows;

      Brother Andrew, has given a good brief reply to your questions.
      I will be able to systematically post in full later.
      I will begin with the Ancient Worthies (AW’s), (the faithfull men & women of pre-christian times), then progress to the 144K & GC, & will hopefully show that ALL these have the same destiny, the Heavenly Kingdom. Please carefully read Hebrews 11, & check in Strongs for the meanings of the Greek words concerning the hopes of these AW’s. Please also check V’s 39,40, as to the destiny of the AW’s & the Saints, all is not what it may appear at first impressions. I did my research alone, & found soon after that several others had the same understanding as myself….this was before I knew about Br. Jon’s book.

      WCL, Amos


    • greybeard says:

      Hi JJ,

      Is it not clear how Christ spoke of those who are not “born again” or those who do not partake? Those not born again will not see the Kingdom of God. I would think that all Christians can expect to see the Kingdom of God if truly a Christian. Those who do not partake Christ calls dead. Here are some scriptures taken from another post on Paradise Cafe:

      As to who is “born again” another way of saying this is “born of God”.

      1 John 3:9
      Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

      1 John 4:7
      Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God.

      1 John 5:1
      Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him.

      1 John 5:4
      For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.

      Rom 8
      8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
      9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.


  7. greybeard says:

    What I have came to believe since not believing JW’s is very simple and basic IMO.

    First of all, So far there has not been a fair test for man. All tests so far have been Man verses supernatural demonic forces. They have always had one up on us.

    So then I believe it is only fair for God to resurrect ALL mankind to a FAIR trial. One without demonic forces. So far up until now demons have been given a chance to rule mankind and they have failed.

    Jesus gave his life for all mankind. The call right now is a heavenly call to rule with Christ. To be with him and his father in heaven. There is no other Christian call. The rest of mankind will play out their days here on Earth.

    I have viewed Earth as a launch pad to Heaven. Does it not stand to reason that all spiritually minded beings would eventually want to be with their creator?

    Those that go to heaven are given immortality. Jehovah knows he can trust them forever. They will sit and Judge angles. The Demons that caused all of this.

    I think God has a great plan and he doesn’t want anyone to die the second death.

    Thats my .02

    Christian love,


  8. Jon says:

    So are you saying that all that have died already went to heaven. that there is life after death?


    • Amos says:

      No Jon, I don’t think that anyone here would believe that the resurrection has taken place. I think that most, if not all believe that this will not happen until the return of the Lord, & this has not yet occured.
      Of course there is life after death, just not as taught by BTG. It is not a simultaneous occurence at death, & will not be until the last trumpet blast, at our Lords return…the first resurrection, prior to Armageddon. (this is only for the anointed saints)
      The rest of the dead (second resurrection), will not be raised until after Armageddon during the 1000 years.



  9. Jayme says:

    For your consideration: :)


    • Amos says:

      Brother Jayme, thanks for posting this link…..this is basically identical to some of the material that I had found in the scriptures myself, there is only one other brother over here that agrees with this, (that I’ve spoken to) that the “saints & AW’s” will BOTH live & rule on the earth.
      This is precisely what some verses in Rev. say, when you do a Grk to Eng translation, & get the sense originally intended.

      Thanks for bringing this up, it will however try some paradigms that we’ve built up over the years. When I started to see this different view, it was very hard to grasp at first, but the HS kept on directing my search into the bible, until it became very clear & in my mind irrefutable. The Spirit will only teach us when we are receptive to truth. We also need the right motive.
      My prayer, has always been to find the truth, apart from human interpretations.



  10. alistbrother says:

    I think both the 144,000 and the great crowd are in fact spiritual jews. Let me present my argument this was way . I have twelve jars of candy. I tell you that I took 12 candies out of the first jar .. then I took twelve out of the second… on and on until I have a total of 144 candies. Then I say, look at the great amount of candy left over. I feel Rev.7 does this exactly. It presents a number taken for each tribe then it says look a great crowd. It would seem to me the great crowd are members of the respective tribes but were not part of the 144,000; Of course, this would have to be understood in a diasporatic context. Please see the actual verse below and tell me your thoughts.

    (Revelation 7:4-9) . . .And I heard the number of those who were sealed, a hundred and forty-four thousand, sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel: 5 Out of the tribe of Judah twelve thousand sealed; out of the tribe of Reu′ben twelve thousand; out of the tribe of Gad twelve thousand; 6 out of the tribe of Ash′er twelve thousand; out of the tribe of Naph′ta‧li twelve thousand; out of the tribe of Ma‧nas′seh twelve thousand; 7 out of the tribe of Sim′e‧on twelve thousand; out of the tribe of Le′vi twelve thousand; out of the tribe of Is′sa‧char twelve thousand; 8 out of the tribe of Zeb′u‧lun twelve thousand; out of the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand; out of the tribe of Benjamin twelve thousand sealed. 9 After these things I saw, and, look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands.


    • Amos says:

      Alistbrother, you do make some good points. If we now add some verses from Revelation 5, Vs 6-10;
      6 “And I saw in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, a Lamb standing, as though it had been slain, having seven horns, and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God, sent forth into all the earth.
      7And he came, and he taketh it out of the right hand of him that sat on the throne.
      8And when he had taken the book, the four living creatures and the four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having each one a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.
      9And they sing a new song, saying, Worthy art thou to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou was slain, and didst purchase unto God with thy blood men of every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation,
      10and madest them to be unto our God a kingdom and priests; and they reign upon earth.”

      If you notice carefully that Rev 5:9, exactly paralells 7:9, but what does 5:10 say? “10 and madest them to be unto our God a kingdom and priests; and they reign upon earth.”

      Any thoughts?



  11. serein says:

    i beleive that 144000 are chosen out of all the earth no mater which religion they belong to, god dosnt choose religion cos its man made so hes chossing inderviduals out of every tribe of the earth, then after hes seald all of the 144000 then therel be all the rest who are stiving for truth and for him and they will help the 144000 by being on earth and helping those who are left and need to be taught after armagedon, then all the dead wil come to life to be judged over the 10000 year and then thats when every one gets the real chance on wether they want to do gods will or there own and then thats when theyl die the second death, i think, people are being chosen out of the earth but i dont think thjey are being taken asoon as they die i think all will be taken to heaven at the begining of armagedon and all will be there at the same time not starting from a point in time on earth like 1914 but at the apointed time that nobody knows only god, then all the 144000 will begine there heavenly duties from armagedon on with jesus then all the rest will start there roles on earth also not gradualy over time but at the same time,then gradualy all teh dead come back to a new system of living in which they have no demon influences and only there own desisions on wether they either live by the new system of things be happy and live for ever or go against it and please themselfs and die.which i think will happen with in that 1000 years, then after all have gone from the earth who arnt gods true followers then the ones who are left will then get one last test after 1000 years and the devil will be let out for a short wile and test them,then thats when everyone else whos not followed gods new sytem of things will die the compleat and forever death along with the demons. so god looks in to our hearts at the moment and not our religion, no one is perfect religion included.,and no one is totaly right on all things either, or totaly wrong,no one can say we will deff be saved if we belong to this or that religion,nonone knows only god,no one can say anyone is wrong cos no one knows for sure as many have there own interpretations of the bibles and also the devil is trying to confuse everyone.but god sees our hearts and he knows who truly wants to do hes will wether which religion or organisation sect they are in it goes on that only i think, people are sheep remember they follow who ever is leading them, as they arnt sure whos right and are scared,i think god knows his true sheep in all the world and hes picking them out and leading them by holy spirit,they are the 144000 the rest who are still confused but trying are the rest and will live on earth and will get another chance.


    • Amos says:

      Greetings Serein, My simple way of explaining the 144,000 is that it is probably a symbolic/representative number for ALL those chosen from among mankind, to rule as “Kings & Priests” with Christ for the 1000 years. (It must be remembered that most numbers in Revelation are symbolic) This of course is being simplistic, there is a much more detailed explanation that I’m getting together & will post is in the future. When I did the study about August September last year,I didn’t take notes, so will need to do it all again.



  12. serein says:

    9and they sing a new song, saying, `Worthy art thou to take the scroll, and to open the seals of it, because thou wast slain, and didst redeem us to God in thy blood, out of every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation,

    10and didst make us to our God kings and priests, and we shall reign upon the earth.

    just been reading this and now i see it as the anointed will infact rule on the earth not in heaven, am i wrong


    • Amos says:

      Sister Serein,
      This is my belief, that the anointed will rule ON the earth. I am also of the view that following the millennial rule, they may then be taken to heaven….I’m still doing research on this now, but am short of time to complete my studies just yet.

      There is also the thought that “as Jesus is the last Adam,” it could be a possibility that He may reside on the earth, in the flesh, along with the anointed saints, to re-establish “full kingdom rule”. Is there a better way for this to happen?(I hope that this view is not offensive to anybody)

      It will take me some time yet, but I intend to post a progressive study of this in the future, this will begin in chronological order with the “Ancient Worthies” of Hebrews ch 11, then the 144,000, then the “Great Crowd”.

      I have come to believe that the anointed are composed of ALL the faithfull ones, from Abel down to the last of the chosen ones, at Christs return. This is a very big subject, that takes time & patience to work through, it means the comparing of scripture with scripture, & Greek/Hebrew to English. When you understand this subject, it allows us to get a better understanding of many other subjects, they just seem to fit into place.

      For any who have an interlinear translation with Strongs numbers, or can access “” you can then check the Strong’s numbers & see the true meanings of the original words as used by the Bible writers, these are essential tools for the truth seeker to use.

      This is just a brief summary as yet….more to come later, as time permits.



  13. FutureMan says:

    Hi there alistbrother, I believe your statement to be partly correct and partly wrong.

    Let me explain what I mean.

    The first situation involves the selection of the “144,000” out of the “twelve tribes of Israel” only.

    Then it mentions the great crowd that would be standing before the throne and waving palm branches, but in this particular situation I believe that the great crowd includes all the rest of the 12 tribes that will survive the great tribulation along with many from the other nations and tribes and tongues.

    (Revelation 7:4-9)
    9 After these things I saw, and, look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, [out of all nations] and [tribes] and peoples and [tongues], standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands.

    I have put brackets around the words in the preceding scripture that I felt is relevant to this discussion.

    Notice how it mention “out of the nations” and then it says “tribes” and then peoples and “tongues”.

    The “tribes” could very well include the rest of the twelve tribes of Israel that will survive.

    Not all Israel will survive the great tribulation except for those who have washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb and are hailing Jesus as the rightful King.

    So I believe Israel to be made up of both the 144,000 and some of those who make up the great crowd, that survive the great tribulation.

    I’m however not completely convinced that the number of 144,000 is a literal number as it could very well be symbolic, but I guess the future will reveal this truth to us all in time.


  14. ResLight says:

    Scripturally, if one claims to be a Christian but has not been “begotten again” so as to be a new creation, he is not in an endeavor to follow Christ (Matthew 16:24; Luke 9:23; John 3:7; 1 Corinthians 15:37; 2 Corinthians 5:17), and thus such a person has taken the name of Christ without the authority of Christ. — Matthew 7:22,23.

    There are, however, different kinds of Christians even amongst those who have been “begotten again” and who have become children, sons of God.

    Paul indicates that there are two levels of Christians, those who have attained the mark of the prize, and those who have not. (Philippians 3:8-15) There are the heirs of God, and there are the joint-heirs with Christ. — Romans 8:17.

    From a different perspective, Jesus indicates that there are four different kinds of Christians who are his servants: (1) those who prove themselves to be faithful and wise; (2) those who have become bad servants, beating their fellow-servants into subjection; (3) those who know what to do but do not do it; (4) those who do not know what to do. — Luke 12:42-48.

    Revelation 7 reveals three different classifications of begotten-again Christians: (1) those represented as being of the 12 symbolic tribes (sons, heirs of God, typed the twelve tribes that left Egypt); (2) those who are sealed out of the twelve tribes (the joint-heirs, typed by the firstborn of the twelve tribes that left Egypt); (3) The great multitude (typed by the mixed company that went out of Egypt with Israel, who became part of Israel).


  15. Amos says:

    Reslight, I can only see ONE type of christians appearing in Rev.7, or any where else for that matter, except for “false christians”. You are either true or false, wheat or weeds!. There is only ONE calling, ONE destiny.

    Please compare this chapter with Chapters 5, 14 & 19, it then becomes very clear that there is only ONE type of “genuine christian”, that are “Son’s of God & joint heirs with Christ.”

    This is an ongoing study with another Bro. that I meet with nearby. We are getting close to putting our conclusions down on paper, & will post these when completed. It will no doubt raise a few eyebrows.

    Your fellow servant



  16. serein says:

    i agree with amos and cant wait to see ur conclusions of this.


  17. andrew says:

    An interesting side point about the great crowd is found in the apocryphal book of 2 Esdras 2:42-48. Most scholars consider chaps 1 and 2 of 2 Esdras to be written in the 2nd or 3rd century AD by a christian.
    Although I am certainly not saying this book is inspired, it is interesting how the author interpreted the great multitude of Rev. 7. The author without question situated the great crowd in heaven and receiving crowns while on Mount Zion.
    If this interpretation of the great crowd was a common one of the time, it adds just a little more credence to the belief that the great crowd will be in heaven.


    • JJ says:

      This is a topic I have been wanting to delve into. I looked for but never found the book “Where is the Great Crowd Serving Jehovah”? written by a brother that was at Bethel and worked with the GB Jon Mitchell is the name I believe. He gets into great detail about the greek words for temple and courtyard, etc. Of course that is only source of information- the Bible and holy spirit are all around me so I should get going lol.


  18. rus virgil says:


    follow the links found here:

    rus virgil


  19. Cathleen says:

    I would be so interested in how one can witness to a current JW, so that they could come to the same conclusion that there is only one class and one destiny. I know that you are gonna lay it out for us…but is there any scripture that could be given casually to a JW that comes to my house that might unveil their eyes to see the TRUTH? In other words what happened to you that caused your eyes to open if you were a former JW?


    • andrew says:

      Welcome Cathleen,
      I don’t think there is only one text you could show that would convince a JW of the one class and one hope of the christian community.

      Most witnesses completely trust the “faithful and discreet slave”. If the slave said the one hope was heavenly, guess what? Every witness would begin to believe that their hope was heavenly.

      You have to get them first to begin to doubt the “channel” doctrine. That is to say that God uses exclusively the leadership of the JWs as his “channel” of information. Because the earthly hope is so ingrained in the JWs, it takes time of careful study to recognize the much more marvelous hope before them.


    • Dennis says:

      HI Cathleen,

      You said, “In other words what happened to you that caused your eyes to open if you were a former JW?”.

      For me (and I know this to be true of others), it took a traumatic event. Even then it took me two months or so to get the courage to order and read Ray Franz’s book, Crisis of Conscious. From that time forward I have been on a steady journey spiritually. At first I had to totally deconstruct what I believed and my motives for service. In my case the ugly truth was I was serving an organization almost as much as I was serving God. I could have no relationship with him apart from this organization. As far as a relationship with Jesus, I’m sad to say there wasn’t much of one. So as I’m progressing I find that some of the JW beliefs that I held dear, I still believe in (these beliefs are by no means unique to Jehovah’s Witnesses though) and some of their beliefs and practices I don’t agree with anymore. Many things I’m still trying to figure out. If they allowed for this, I most likely would be meeting with them and having fellowship with them today.

      You see, the problem for some is, once significant cracks start to appear in the JW doctrinal dogma they either loose their spirituality or in some cases become agnostic (or worse). I think it was Ray Franz who said something to the effect that for some JW’s a spiritual awakening can leave them worse off than before. That staying in the organization would be best for them lest they lose faith or become agnostic. The thought was, that some people just can’t serve God unless it’s in the framework of a highly authoritarian and controlling organization. I have to say that I can see his point. It brings me no happiness to admit that I have struggled with this my self.

      I agree with Andrew’s comments and his suggestion is excellent. There are a number of very good publications and websites that can give you the education necessary to do this.



      • JJ says:

        Thank you Dennis, good comment. I have spoken on the phone with a brother that worked in the writing department during the “organizationally turbulent” times of the 1970s and into the early 1980s and he knew Ray Franz very well. He said something similar. In his opinion encouraging Witnesses “en masse” to read Crisis of Conscience would be a bad idea because it was a bit like lighting a bomb in a place where you weren’t sure who was going to walk by next. Some will be blown out of their comfort zone and begin to really examine the scriptures…while others are obliterated spiritually and go off into the world to eat drink and be merry since their hope and faith is gone.

        I have wrestled with which position is right, and feel deep in my heart that it is better to know the truth about the truth. It is better to have that opportunity to search for and find God and Christ in Christian Freedom, rather than ignorance.

        But the pull to simply give up and “do whatever you feel like” is there. Since we no longer have to listen to and obey everything the WT says it can tempt us to simply throw off all Christian restraint. To use a somewhat silly but appropriate metaphor, it’s “The Dark Side of the Force” at work. Satan will use anything he can to kill us spiritually- even the truth. 2 Peter 2:19-20 comes to mind:

        “While they are promising them freedom, they themselves are existing as slaves of corruption. For whoever is overcome by another is enslaved by this one. 20 Certainly if, after having escaped from the defilements of the world by an accurate knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they get involved again with these very things and are overcome, the final conditions have become worse for them than the first.”


    • Jolly Roger says:

      Hi Cathleen, your question is, indeed, a curious one, as it that you are having a “casual” conversation about religion with a JW. That is interesting, in that a “Bible Study” is usually considered a formalized conversation.

      The short answer, in keeping with Andy’s first answer, is “don’t do it”. If you are curious about the distinction between those with a Heavenly Hope and those with an Earthly Hope, I would suggest that you either ask your JW person directly, or, more beneficially, actually have a Bible Study with them. The first thing that your JW friend is going to ask you if you come up with such a scripture is, “Where did you get that scripture?”, because this subject is so limited in which religions discuss it and why. It’s a pretty safe bet that your JW friend is going to return the favor and ask you to explain why you think that that particular scripture negates the heaven/earth concept.

      Be aware that without having the concepts, precepts, and background information necessary to understand the subtleties involved, your JW friend’s answer to your your question will sound like gibberish to you.

      By way of example, if you went to a particle physicist and asked him how it was possible to prove that a single photon can be in two places at the same time, unless you had a bit of background on particle/wave mechanics would the physicist’s answer mean anything to you?


    • greybeard says:

      Hi Cathleen,

      It is clear you have a good heart and want to help the JW. I agree with what Andrew, Dennis and JJ said. As a former JW myself, I can honestly say there is probably no scripture you could turn to to prove we were wrong on any point. We believe we have the “TRUTH” and we are the ones “teaching the good news world wide”. The JW is at your home to teach you and not be taught. When others try to teach them most will end the conversation and go to the next door.

      Rarely do JW’s ever get invited in and offered a cup of coffee or drink. I remember one time I was out from door to door and a husband and wife invited us in. They offered us a drink and asked us to sit down and talk. That was very kind. They had their Bibles out and started asking questions. One question they asked was, “do you have a personal relationship with Jesus?” I said, “why sure I do, I pray through him to his father every day.” I could see the way this was going and I knew what was coming next. “Are you born again?” Now I got to tell you Cathleen, none of these questions effected me in the least. As a JW, I’ve heard them all I believe. What did effect me was i could actually feel the LOVE. These were nice people devoted to Bible reading. They were clean and well dressed and had a very clean, nice house. I was impressed. What I went away thinking to myself was, “how could Jehovah destroy people like this?” Yes in my mind they might be wrong but haven’t we been wrong in the past? Every JW knows they have changed their understanding. The Bible tells us that “LOVE never fails” and that is so true.

      So my advice to you is be as loving as possible. Let them see your clean home. Invite them in for coffee or tea. Tell them you respect what they are doing although you don’t agree with all they teach. Tell them you agree with a lot of what they believe like love your neighbor and your enemies. Whatever you do, don’t attempt to prove them wrong. It will go no where. At least I know it didn’t work with me or those JW’s with me.

      You treat them this way and they will think you are a sheep and they will come back to see you again. Make them your friends and then maybe, maybe you might effect them in some way.

      You asked for a scripture, If I was going to show my JW friends one, i would pick this one:
      Luke 21:8, “Look out that YOU are not misled; for many will come on the basis of my name, saying, ‘I am he,’ and, ‘The due time has approached.’ Do not go after them.”

      You see they have done this over and over, “the due time has approached.” In all my years as a JW nobody ever showed that to me and I missed it in the Bible. I found it after realizing they do not have the truth.

      Of course the number one thing is prayer. I believe the truth is you cannot reach anyone unless they themselves have asked God to not let them be blind even if JW’s are wrong. After I prayed that, I found out that I was was wrong all my life. God can prove anything to anyone. What does he do? He waits for us to search him out and find him. Unless a person is doing that, he will not find the real truth about God.

      Just remember Love NEVER fails. (1 Corinthians 13:8)

      Another point I might add is my wife, children, brother and both parents are JW’s. If there was a magic bullet or scripture believe me, I would use it. There is no such thing. I would give anything just to see my wife learn the real truth and not be so devoted to these men and the Watchtower. It has to come from them. what can I do? Pray and love them. I tried to prove to each family member how wrong the JW’s were. What happened? Each family member cut me off. They no longer would talk to me. Every one of them. That is how they are trained. I stopped my efforts to teach them and told them, “well their are just some things I don’t understand. I will wait one Jehovah. Please forgive me for arguing with you about this.” Each one forgave me and now talk to me. What did I learn? It’s not up to me to change them with “proof” or “facts” but rather…. I need to show them love and pray to Jehovah that he open their hearts.

      Your brother,

      P.S. Please read this too:


  20. abel joseph says:

    futureman and all. There is only one tier of christians on earth. They are the “Israel of God”. The fact that 12×12000 are secretly sealed by the angels to be later with Christ in heaven does not divide the congregation, because we dont know what the angels are doing in each case. There will be a recreation , material resurrection, and a first, a heavenly one. We are not sheep, OS or otherwise, we are spiritual ISRAELITES, all. Jesus said: “drink of it ALL of you”!. the first partakers all (still) had an earthly kingdom hope. so we can all stop counting partakers, it has nothing to do with the 144 000 it has to do with the wtbts inc power structure creating a sub class of followers. it would be nice to hear The Christ about each one of us: ” see an Israelite* for a certainty” of the IRAEL OF GOD. blessings


  21. whateverhappenedtome says:

    very interesting posts, and with the exchange of slightly differing ideas, my mind cannot stop imagining things.

    bros and sis. with all the convincing possibilities that all of us have only one hope, how would we view the fulfillment of the isaiah 65, and all other texts prophecy about the earth’s condition in the future?. i used to use this verse to prove that there is an earthly paradise when i went door to door.. please discuss more of sure there are lots of us here following and reading all your brilliant comments….

    thank you..


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