Long before my “awakening” from the psychological grip of the Watch Tower Society I was confused and confounded by certain elements of the Genesis account – particularly the events described in the first three chapters. Elements of the narrative simply baffle me, and the publications have never offered any meaningful answers to my specific questions. Now that I am mentally and emotionally free from the Society, it seems like a good time to share these questions in the hopes that someone out there may have the answers, or else, share in my bewilderment!

In Chapters 1 and 2, Adam is created. The reader is left in no doubt that Adam was created in God’s “image”.

“Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness… and God proceeded to create the man in his image, in God’s image he created him; male and female he created them.” – Gen 1:26,27

The traditional assumption as to the meaning of God’s having created Adam “in his image” is that he imbued man with his own qualities or characteristics – the predominant quality being love. Love is essentially an emotional attribute, and I have long wondered what would have been the end result if God had chosen NOT to create man in his image for whatever reason. Would the resulting humans have been devoid of emotion? Or naturally heartless, cruel, and animalistic? But I digress…

Along with the creation of the first human pair, the creation of two special trees is given centre stage in the narrative. One tree is the “tree of life”, and the other is dubbed “the tree of the knowledge of good and bad”. It wasn’t until my late teens that I grasped the existence of two trees in the narrative rather than just the one that was forbidden. The exact properties of both trees are unclear, but much is learned from reading on into Chapter 3.

Evidently, the tree of life was the source of Adam and Eve’s everlasting life, and it was among the trees from which they were encouraged to “eat to satisfaction”. On the other hand, the “tree of the knowledge of good and bad” was strictly off limits, but it was the properties of this tree in particular that confused me.

Remember that Adam and Eve had ALREADY been created “in God’s image” or “likeness”. Notice what God says after the fruit of the contraband tree has been eaten:

“Here the man has become like one of us in knowing good and bad…” – Gen 3:22

So my obvious question was: if Adam and Eve had already been created in God’s likeness, then how was it that by eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and bad they became LIKE God and Christ? This was, after all, the whole gist of the serpent’s temptation of Eve, when he said:

“You positively will not die. For God knows that in the very day of your eating from it your eyes are bound to be opened and you are bound to be like God, knowing good and bad”. – Gen 3:4,5

Technically speaking, nothing that the serpent told Eve was untruthful, because the fruit wasn’t itself deadly, and the claim that it would make the eater “like God, knowing good and bad” is later confirmed by the words of God himself in the previously quoted Genesis 3:22. The only way in which the serpent could be said to be misleading Eve was in its failure to warn her that she would die as an indirect consequence of eating the fruit. That is to say, it wasn’t the fruit that killed Eve, it was the punitive actions taken by God in response to Eve’s act of disobedience that killed her – albeit hundreds of years later (according to biblical chronology).

Notice what God goes on to say in Genesis 3:22:

“and now in order that he [Adam] may not put his hand out and actually take fruit also from the tree of life and eat and live to time indefinite…”

God’s statement in verse 22 is cut short, almost as though God needs to act SO quickly in retribution that he simply doesn’t have time to regale us with an explanation and finish his sentence. Here is what happens:

“With that Jehovah God put him [Adam] out of the garden of Eden to cultivate the ground from which he had been taken. And so he drove them out and posted at the east of the garden of Eden the cherubs and the flaming blade of a sword that was turning itself continually to guard the way to the tree of life.

So it’s clear from the above account that the tree of life, whatever it actually was, was a source of eternal life to whoever ate from it – and the banishment from Eden was a punitive measure taken by God to ensure that the serpent’s claims would not come true. The serpent, Satan, claimed that the newfound “knowledge” obtained from the contraband tree would indeed make Adam and Eve “like God” – which it evidently did. The only issue was that they could not be permitted to live with this knowledge forever by eating further from the “tree of life”. God evidently determined that having BOTH the new knowledge AND eternal life was inconceivable – hence the banishment.

As you can imagine, this has left more questions than answers in my mind, as follows…

Just what was it about “the tree of the knowledge of good and bad” that made Adam and Eve even more godlike than they already were? Was it in fact “sentience” itself – or human self-awareness? This might explain the reaction of Adam and Eve to their nakedness. But if this WAS the case, then why would God want to prohibit humans from having such a basic human attribute? And if it made such a fundamental change to them, what were they like before this transition? Were they mindless automatons?

If these super-imposed godlike traits were something altogether more profound, do we still live with them as descendants of Adam and Eve, or did they take these enhancements to their grave?

Above all, where does the concept of “inherited sin” and human perfection fit into all of this? Irrespective of what the forbidden fruit contained or actually did to Adam and Eve, in God’s own words it made them MORE like him as opposed to making Adam and Eve sinful, or less like God. Obviously the act of eating the fruit was sinful, but not necessarily whatever it was that the fruit did to them. So where does the notion of inherited sin and the ransom fit into all of this?

I pose all these questions not in the hopes of trying to stir up doubts in others, or make you all as confused as I am. It is merely to share my own genuine doubts in the hopes that likeminded ones will succeed where the Society has failed and actually be able to explain everything to me in a way that makes sense. After all, the above events set the stage for the entire theme of the bible, so without having any true grasp of the beginning, I find it extremely difficult to truly comprehend where I personally fit in to the broader scope of the biblical narrative.

Your brother,

 

Cedars

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63 Comments on The Two Trees – My Genesis Ponderings

  1. Amos says:

    Greetings Cedars,

    This is also a topic that has been on my mind for decades, & I was only discussing two days ago by phone with a sister.

    I have come to some sort of an understanding on these questions, but will need to come back to you in a few hours, as I’m getting ready to go out for the morning. The answer is really very simple.

    Your brother,
    Amos

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  2. Disappointed says:

    Cedars, this is something I’ve often pondered too!! There is so little said about this in the bible that there seem to be more questions than answers. But having recently read the book of Enoch and comparing it with the first few chapters of Genesis I’ve been able to begin to find some answers to my questions, although it is going to take me some time to figure it out. I think the tree of knowledge has a lot more to it than a just simple tree and obedience and disobedience. I think there were things in the spirit world that mankind had no rights to understand and before the flood they learnt these things from the fallen angels and what happened to Adam and Eve was just the beginning.

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  3. serein says:

    http://www.thechronicleproject.org/ im not going to try and say go on this site but it gave me somthing to think about and made me even more confused and nobody has been able to verefi to me wether the people on it are actualy writing how it realy is in the book of genesis and other stuff there doing anyways iv mentioned it befor and it relates to this question cos on this site it talks about what happend with adam and eve when they ate the fruit and it said they became like the supreme ones so meaning angels,ud all have to go look and see what i meanim not saying thses people are right im just sayimng im searching for truth and i found this site,

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  4. JohnS says:

    Brother Cedars,I have thought about this for years,and I do have an explanation that fits the FACTS AS PRESENTED in Genesis,and is NOT SPECULATION!I have shared it with many Witnesses,and it is so different from any thing they have considered,they look at me with their mouth hanging open.but here goes……..
    Adam and Eve are told about the 2 trees that are where?”In the MIDDLE of the Garden.Both.One is poisonous…..one contains the antidote for the poison.
    The “Tree of Knowledge” was a wonderful tree,though its fruit was deadly poisonous to the touch.If a person was able to eat freely from this tree,what might he learn?

    A.Knowledge…some good things,some oh so very bad,like sickness,sin,which is the stricken state,the description of the human condition that occurs after acquiring the poison from the fruit,remember they were told that if they even touched the fruit,it would kill them.That is another reason the tree was in such proximity to the antidote “Tree of Life”.What,for instance would have happened to their kids,if one day,Adam Jr. was playing with a roudy lion,and he rolled over a piece of fruit from the poison tree?Well,he comes home sick,a rash all over his back where the fruit touched him,and maybe a fever,something never experienced by them.What now?Enter;”antidote tree.”Tree of Life.”
    “Preposterous,John,you big-mouth!”, you may think,but wait….What did the Father say(or Son)? Cast them out of the Garden so they can’t get to the “Tree of Life.”..FACT..”and live to time indefinite.” This is why the Father blocked the way by angels,and the powerful Holy Spirit revolving that sword around.Neither one man,thousands of men,or angels were going to thwart the outworking of them learning the full scope’the knowledge of both Good,and Bad.Adam and Eve were now committed ,to the school of HARD KNOCKS.Well if this is the way you want it,children,then well have it your way.How else would they learn sorrow,heartbreak,wisdom verses folly,hear a sad song,appreciate good food,if they had never been really hungry,the precious value of life,if they had never got sick,or saw death.Oh,so many things they were going to learn now…..yes,the TOTAL SPECTRUM of joy,and sorrow,good annd nasty-bad,wickedness,even.war,hate,murder,starvation,you are bringing it ALL TO YOUR FRONT DOOR!
    But,it was inevitable! God and Christ knew this,that’s why he put the tree there in the first place.We HAVE TO GO THROUGH THIS to become like God,wise,experienced,mature.Also rock-hard,tempered steel,solid gold for what is right.You see,the Gospel and the Revelation show some of mankind will learn from the tree’s experience,some won’t and will perish eternally.
    Thus enter the ransom.This shows how loving our Creators are,as they are willing to do something we have to learn.Christ came down and gave himself to torture and death,showing us how much THEY both love us.We’will go through it together,ok?So Christ did this,and now,God doesn’t hold our sickened bodies severe limitations against us.Those who hgave good motives,who try,and show their intentions,by putting faith in the ransom….are completely forgiven AND GRANTED eternal life,just as Adam and Eve had.
    Now prove it,John,show me how Eve benefitted,and Adam,what did they achieve that was good,possibly? Remember,Eve went over her husband’s head?snuck around him?and deceived him?Think about this.We don’t even know for sure if they had consumated their”Marriage” at the time of the eating,do we?There is no mention of it till after the fall.Maybe (sorry a little side-imagination must be injected for story) maybe Eve was frigid about the whole marriage/sex thing,and wasn’t “ready” for this step?Maybe Satan saw this as the opportunity HE WAS LOOKING FOR,as obviously he had been watching them secretly,and building his wicked plans.What were his plans?WE already know what his plan was.How?Because he has shown his hand for 6000 years now.The demons desired sexual relations with mankind,and actually worked a whole movement-symphony of wickedness,including rape,plunder and mass-murder upon puny men-before the flood.And as for Satan,we know from Peter’s writings PRIDE was his attitude(also Job 1)and a desire to build his own kigdom and set himself up as God.We know he hated Christ,and tried to thwart the lineage of Adam to Jesus,many times trying for the extinction of Israel,and before the flood,possibly the ruination thru hybridization of the angels/women to destroy the pure Adamic DNA,thus ruining any chance of Christ buying back the human race by offering himself the perfect Adam sacrifice,as now,there would be no pure human genome left to carry the pure DNA down to the Messiah’s due time.Think about it.According to scriptures,the sacrifice of Christ and the Kingdom itself of Christ and the Holy Ones was foreordained,before the founding of the world.All that we see in Christ,the Kingdom,the mighty suffering and death testing of Christ and the anointed has all been anticipated according to scriptures and we can show these,but not now.(Eph.1:3,4 comes to mind,though)Satan may have known all this,and was trying to steal the show,thinking he could get Eve to his side,and possibly get some fruit from the antidote tree,heal her of the disease described as sin(missing the mark,of human potential,like calling a disease what the symptoms show;’smallpox’ for instance).The angels and sword were to keep Satan out too,from getting Eve the fruit,and curing her,getting her life again,she would be grateful to him,ally herself to him,become his mistress,start his Kingdom. A simple plan.Simple is good…in plans.Think about it,if he didn’t think somewhat like this.Why else would he have certainly committed suicide for,if he wasn’t trying to achieve something out of it for himself?

    Think of the sentencing of all of them.Adam,now had to suffer,he had to go to work for a living,and it would be tough,hard,sweaty,work.He learned suffering,but he learned love,the kind that suffers pain,the bittersweet love that has death and misery,the strongest love of all,like the kind Father Jah experienced by sending Christ down.He showed love for her even before he took the fruit,as he knew he would die with her if he took it,but he didn’t want her to go thru this alone.That’s pure love..Eve…she in time craved the man,saw him breaking his back in the fields to put food on the table,and he sure loved those kids.It broke their hearts when they lost their first two sons,total devastation.How they triumphed and got back on their feet,and showed the gumption to carry on,and start again,well we have them to thank as we are here.They’ll maybe write a book to tell us the details in the resurrection
    Well, there’s always more to tell,but you get the general idea.The Tree of Knowledge was a tree of good and bad knowledge equally.We needed this knowledge to fully educate ourselves to be wise,like our Creators,to grow strong thru adversity,and now we also know there are dangers out there for our human family,that are not even from this earth,that we have to be prepared to face.We have grown and soon the lessons will end and a “New Heaven and Earth” will exist where righteousness will dwell.Those going into this one will be cured of the disease of sin,it says by eating leaves of the trees of life and their fruit which grows a new crop every month.Whether theses are literal or not we must wait to see.”Look I am making all things new!” Father says.(Rev.)Even the resurrection of mankind will wipe the tears from all faces.So though we have suffered,it will all be restored soon,and it will never have to be repeated again.We will also have a powerful Kingdom that will last forever,of superhuman powers,exactly in the image of the Son,the Sons of the Kingdom,there for us,to love guide,counsel,school us into the eternal future.What wonders they will help us learn?How far they could take us,into learning the secrets and delights of our immense universe.It only remains to be seen.

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    • Cedars says:

      JohnS – after a promising build-up, you immediately dashed my hopes that your explanation would truly fit the facts “as presented in Genesis” when you said “One [tree] is poisonous…..one contains the antidote for the poison.” Nowhere does it say in the first three chapters of Genesis that either tree was poisonous, so your entire premise is based on an assumption that is super-imposed on the Genesis narrative.

      Cedars

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  5. andrew says:

    These questions on the happenings in the garden of Eden have probably been pondered by us all. Unfortunately many are questions that can not be answered with any degree of certainty.

    I have pondered the nature of the “death” experienced by Adam and Eve that day. It was said they would die the very same day they ate of the tree. Perhaps this “death” was in reference to their separation from God not their physical death. Paul often referred to being dead in sin, which obviously was not physical death but spiritual.

    Perhaps they were created as mortal beings subject to live a limited time on earth. By means of the tree of life (whether this was an actual tree or something else) their physical life was prolonged. By “dying” spiritually they were prohibited from the tree of life so they eventually died physically as well.

    Perhaps Jesus ransom sacrifice was not to do away with physical death but the death that Adam experienced and passed on to the human family, spiritual death i.e. separation from God. Perhaps if Adam had not sinned eventually he would have died physically but would not have experienced spiritual death. Perhaps he would have been taken to live in heaven after his life on earth ended.

    It is possible it never was God’s intention to have Adam and all his children live physical lives on earth through out all eternity. It is possible Adam and Eve never were perfect as JWs think of perfection (i.e. never even stubbing a toe).

    This all is conjecture and speculation and I make no claim to it being correct.

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    • Wolfman says:

      I have a very similar opinion to yours. I do not think that was God’s purpose that humans live on earth forever.

      From the very beginning of creation and not by reason of sin, death existed. Everything on Earth was created with a biological clock which would allow each creation last for a certain time. Let me explain better, a dog was designed to last about 15 years, a horse 40, a tree perhaps hundreds of years. Sin had nothing to do with this duration of time, but rather were designed by God as well as whatever he did was good.

      We humans were not the exception. Our design, without any other influences, perhaps always was about 80 years. But God had a purpose that – after the Earth was filled of human beings faithful to God, these will become part of their spiritual creatures (Ephesians 1:9-11). This was his secret to mankind and it should show worthy of the privilege before that purpose will be revealed. When Adam and Eve eat from the tree of knowledge, they may learn of the secret.

      I know that much of this is conjecture, but this is how I understand it. By Adam and Eve being able to eat of the tree of life, this would allow them to last long enough to fill the earth and then die physically to inherit the heavenly life. To acquire knowledge that they were not allowed at that time, were expelled from the garden with no opportunity to feed back from the tree of life. As a result, besides being dead spiritually to God, began to die physically.

      To have in their systems the effects from the tree of life, they lasted for several centuries as well as many of their descendants, but this effect was gradually lost until the present day we last what was assigned to our biological clock.

      God did what was necessary to maintain his secret until the right time. So I think, that from the very beginning God had planned a heavenly future for his human creation, given that they were faithful to Him.

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    • Wolfman says:

      I have a very similar opinion to yours. I do not think that was God’s purpose that humans live on earth forever.

      From the very beginning of creation and not by reason of sin, death existed. Everything on Earth was created with a biological clock which would allow each creation last for a certain time. Let me explain better, a dog was designed to last about 15 years, a horse 40, a tree perhaps hundreds of years. Sin had nothing to do with this duration of time, but rather were designed by God as well as whatever he did was good.

      We humans were not the exception. Our design, without any other influences, perhaps always was about 80 years. But God had a purpose that – after the Earth was filled of human beings faithful to God, these will become part of their spiritual creatures (Ephesians 1:9-11). This was his secret to mankind and it should show worthy of the privilege before that purpose will be revealed. When Adam and Eve eat from the tree of knowledge, they may learn of the secret.

      I know that much of this is conjecture, but this is how I understand it. By Adam and Eve being able to eat of the tree of life, this would allow them to last long enough to fill the earth and then die physically to inherit the heavenly life. To acquire knowledge that they were not allowed at that time, were expelled from the garden with no opportunity to feed back from the tree of life. As a result, besides being dead spiritually to God, began to die physically.

      To have in their systems the effects from the tree of life, they lasted for several centuries as well as many of their descendants, but this effect was gradually lost until the present day we last what was assigned to our biological clock.

      God did what was necessary to maintain his secret until the right time. So I think, that from the very beginning God had planned a heavenly future for his human creation, given that they were faithful to Him.

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      • Disappointed says:

        Interesting points, but what about the fact that Adam and his decendents (pre-flood) lived almost 1,000 years! Why would a tree live longer than a man?

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  6. FutureMan says:

    The conclusion that I have come to is that there was only one non seed bearing tree in the garden of Eden and that was the tree of life which at that time was the only one of it’s kind.

    If you carefully read the scriptures with an open mind you could conclude that this is the case.

    Is it really saying that there were two trees in the garden or was there actually only one tree in the middle of the garden with two different names ascribed to it by the Jewish scribes?

    Genesis 1
    11 And God said, Let the earth sprout tender sprouts, the plant seeding seed, the fruit tree producing fruit according to its kind, whichever seed is in it on the earth. And it was so.
    12 And the earth bore tender sprouts, the plant seeding seed according to its kind, and the fruit tree producing fruit according to its kind, whichever seed is in it. And God saw that it was good.[LITV]

    29 ¶ And God said, Behold, I have given you every plant seeding seed which is on the face of all the earth, and every tree in which is the fruit of a tree seeding seed; it shall be food for you.[LITV]

    Genesis 2
    8 ¶ And Jehovah God planted a garden in Eden to the east; and He put the man whom He had formed there.
    9 And out of the ground Jehovah God made to spring up every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food. The Tree of Life was also in the middle of the garden; also the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.[LITV]

    Notice how it is translated by the Chronicle project translation of the Genesis account.

    http://thechronicleproject.org.....master.pdf
    http://www.thechronicleproject.....nesis.html

    Genisis 1
    v6 And so to spring up ruler of all the
    supreme ones, to derive the ground, all to
    look at therefore to delight, to that, to see.
    And to satisfy to that, to consume.
    And to look at, the reflections
    (ponds) amid to cut the enclosed area.
    And (a) tree, the to know to continue, to
    satisfy and to fear [The Chronicle Project 2009]

    Genesis 1
    v6 And so Ruler of all the supreme ones
    sprang up everything from the ground
    delightful to see and satisfying to eat. And
    to look into, reflecting ponds throughout the
    garden. And then he created a tree, the one
    of the lasting knowledge of being satisfied
    inside, or to live in fear.[The Chronicle Project 2009]

    From this account at least you can see that there is actually only one tree that was in the garden of Eden.

    Now it goes on to say,

    v13 And so to command, Ruler of all
    supreme ones, to mount to the Adam (to rule
    those) to declare,
    “That, all tree, (of) the enclosed area to
    consume, to proceed to consume.
    v14 And that tree, the to know to continue to
    satisfy and to fear, to not to proceed to
    consume that to derive being there.
    Amid the day to consume your that to derive
    being,… to die, to proceed to die.
    v15 And so to declare ruler of all the
    supreme ones,

    Paraphrased English
    Adam (to rule
    those)
    Adam
    …to til and to guard.
    v13 The Ruler of all the supreme ones
    placed a command upon the
    to say,”All of the trees of the enclosed
    area you may proceed to eat.
    v14 The tree of the lasting knowledge of
    being satisfied inside or to live in fear, that
    you are not allowed to eat from. The day
    you eat of it, you will experience death,
    before your death (of age).[The Chronicle Project 2009]

    Notice in all these passages there is actually no mention of the tree of life.

    But here is what the Urantia book has to say about the tree of life,

    (QUOTE)
    6. The Tree of Life
    (825.6) 73:6.1 In the center of the Garden temple Van planted the long-guarded tree of life, whose leaves were for the “healing of the nations,” and whose fruit had so long sustained him on earth. Van well knew that Adam and Eve would also be dependent on this gift of Edentia for their life maintenance after they once appeared on Urantia in material form.

    (825.7) 73:6.2 The Material Sons on the system capitals do not require the tree of life for sustenance. Only in the planetary repersonalization are they dependent on this adjunct to physical immortality.

    (825.8) 73:6.3 The “tree of the knowledge of good and evil” may be a figure of speech, a symbolic designation covering a multitude of human experiences, but the “tree of life” was not a myth; it was real and for a long time was present on Urantia. When the Most Highs of Edentia approved the commission of Caligastia as Planetary Prince of Urantia and those of the one hundred Jerusem citizens as his administrative staff, they sent to the planet, by the Melchizedeks, a shrub of Edentia, and this plant grew to be the tree of life on Urantia. This form of nonintelligent life is native to the constellation headquarters spheres, being also found on the headquarters worlds of the local and superuniverses as well as on the Havona spheres, but not on the system capitals.

    (826.1) 73:6.4 This superplant stored up certain space-energies which were antidotal to the age-producing elements of animal existence. The fruit of the tree of life was like a superchemical storage battery, mysteriously releasing the life-extension force of the universe when eaten. [Urantia Book]

    And here is a something from the ancient Kolbrin Bible.

    “It was a fertile place, for out of the ground grew every kind of tree that was good for food and every tree that was pleasant to the sight. Every herb that could be eaten and every herb that flowered was there. The Tree of Life, which was called Glasir, having leaves of gold and copper, was within the Sacred Enclosure. There, too, was the Great Tree of Wisdom bearing the fruits of knowledge granting the choice and ability to know the true from the false. It is the same tree which can be read as men read a book. There also was the Tree of Trespass beneath which grew the Lotus of Rapture, and in the centre was The Place of Power where God made His presence known.[Kolbrin]

    So it does get very interesting when you read other texts and writings on this as well as variations of translation of the book of Genesis.

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  7. DanielB says:

    Well Andrew , you put your foot in it again .

    You said ” This (your words) all is conjecture and speculation and I make no claim to it being correct. ”

    Then why speak out so much of what you think may be hot air ?

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    • andrew says:

      By necessity all comments on the topic of the happenings in the garden of eden must contain speculation and conjecture. We are privy to very few facts of what happened.
      I gave a few ponderings I’ve had on the subject and I didn’t want anyone to think I was promoting it as God-given fact. It’s a possibility that’s all. Sorry if I offended you.

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    • greybeard says:

      I do not think Andrew “put his foot in it again”… as he said, “By necessity all comments on the topic of the happenings in the garden of eden must contain speculation and conjecture. We are privy to very few facts of what happened.” I agree, what you presented Andrew could very well be possible. Were in the bible does it say men were created to live forever on Earth? That is a JW teaching and is speculative.

      I always appreciate your comments Andrew, you are a very humble brother and never make personal remarks or put downs. If being open minded is “putting your foot in it” then my foot is always in it 😉

      By the way, I enjoyed your article Cedars. I have often had the same questions. I believe there is much more to this story… I believe it may not be as literal as most religious people think it is. These kinds of questions are the type that can cause some to doubt the bible. I can see how that could happen although I do love pondering them.

      Your brother in Christ,
      Greybeard

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  8. man oh man says:

    Cedars, Wouldn’t the fact that Jah told them eating the forbidden fruit would kill them clearly show that it was a poisonous tree? Then of course you would have a contrast between the tree of knowledge and the tree of life? Just asking?????

    JohnS, I really like the explanation as it makes total sense.

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  9. JohnS says:

    Brother Cedars,
    What’s so hard to understand,You eat the fruit,you will die.If you walk over,and eat the fruit of the Tree of Life,you will not die.It’s just a simplified way of stating a fact; another fact,even touching the fruit would lead to death.But the fruit of the Tree of Life was a curative,They said so,not me.That’s the factual premise.What problem you seem to have is comprehending something you and millions are glossing over when reading the account.Your minds are running ahead,not stoping to think of the impact of what is being said.
    Also you must listen closely to the punishment verdicts handed down to them all.There are clues to what the motives and intentions of all 3 involved as you hear Father passing sentence.Particularly on the Devil,Father clearly infers Satan’s scheme was to produce offspring with the woman,to enamour the woman to himself,but God tells him his plan is going to blow up in his face;the woman will hate him,and the offspring of the woman and the offspring of Satan(their seed,children,demon hybrids and men woud hate each other.This all happened in centuries before the flood.The earth was FILLED with violence.) The two seeds would hate each other.You see,friends INFERENCE means the thought expressed in the sentencing is dealing with the fact that the punishment fits the crime(revese reasoning).
    Look at Eve’s sentencing,for instance.”I will mutiply your pains in childbearing,your yearning shall be for your husband,and he will Lord it over you.”3:16
    Ok,Father brings up childbearing and its pain.Think,now,why?Why didn’t he say,”Your teeth will rot out,and hair turn gray,and your breasts will sag,and your ,etc…” to describe what would happen as she aged,if that’s why he brought out about child-birth pain,just describing death to some spoiled vain girl.No LISTEN to the words again.”I will MULTIPLY YOUR PAINS in childbearing,you shall give birth to your children in pain.Your yearning shall be for your husband,yet he will lord it over you.” I didn’t bring in speculation on the last post,only in one instance.Here we do investigate the MOTIVE for Eve’s dissatisfaction with her present situation.It becomes clear from inference of God’s words,he is judging her motive,is he not.What was that?OBVIOUSLY,something to do with her attitude toward the sexual union/marriage/children reality that she was facing.They surely had been given the “Birds and the Bees ” talk by their Father,wouldn’t you think? He discusses things with them every day.Don’t you imagine she had to even have the time at first to even learn to talk,like Adam?God formed Adam,then brought all the animals before him,and whatever he called them,that was their name.Simple point and speak teaching of language is being shown here.I taught all my kids the same way.Or did you think as soon as Adam was introduced,he grabs her,and pulls her around a bush,and…..I’m not making sordid remarks,just trying to show that just because the account is stated succinctly,doesn’t mean these developements,learning to speak,which requires thought images,actions shown experience….TIME.
    Now,I want to wrap up the thought about Eve.”Greatly increase the pain of your chilbearing”,ok,as Father shows his children they have sex organs,just like the animals,how her menstrual cycles will work,and discusses semen,etc,etc,all has to be discussed.This is important,as he has told them to fill the earth.This how you will do it,or why you don’t,etc.He has his children in front of him.Just because they have grown-up bodies.remember,they are brand new babies in their minds,totally naive.RETICENCE,is clearly being shown on Eve’s part.She’s not sure of all this,maybe Adam has been pressuring her,and as the weeks roll on into months,maybe,and Adam complains,possibly,”Father,this woman you gave me,she won’t do what you say to do,no sex ,no love,she won’t mind me when I tell her what to do,I just don’t know what to think”…….
    Sure ,I’m speculating here,as IMAGINING WHAT WENT WRONG. It clearly states her motives in the next phase of the sentence;”Your yearning shall be for your husband,yet he will lord it over you.” Now here’s where I need help,what? You say,brother John at a loss for words? No way! I don’t understand exactly what other changes happened from eating the fruit,especially sexually.But immediately after eating the fruit,a big awareness occurs about their sex organs,and possibly what we would call”the urge” may have now been intensified in a body weakened by this poison or even “fruit of knowledge” or their self-control may have even been lessened.Old crazy John doesn’t have all the answers,remember,I always say I don’t know it all,I just don’t give up until I get an answer that I can live with.OK…..The point I wanted to make,for everyone’s consideration,is,…if there wasn’t a problem with Eve’s heartfelt desire for her big strapping virile man,and her attraction to him,love-wise,and/or SEX wise,why bring it up,and chastise her for it in the sentencing of them to banishment and death? NOOOOO,GIRL,you are going to love this man,you’ll see,and you’re going to have children,alright…and lots of them,and “NOW–BECAUSE YOU DIDN”T OBEY ME….it’s going to really go hard on you.” He is not being mean here either,but you can see how greatly disappointed he is,he’s crushed by the whole affair,now that it has happened,but he knew that it might,maybe expected it ,but maybe not this soon,I don’t know.(see I said it again)Maybe his powers of seeing the future he can turn off at will (I) (D)on’t )K)now…IDK(comprende?)So he may not have seen the Satan factor coming in so soon.Surely he would have seen Eve’s reticence,and MAYBE that’s why he brought it up in the sentencing.
    We must use a measure of DISCERNMENT and PRACTICAL WISDOM and not a little WOMEN’S INTUITION,when we read the word….as these are God-given qualities too.Point and speak is the way children are taught.Point and THINK should be the way we grown-ups learn.Just because a term seems simply or succintly stated,doesn’t mean much time and many events have taken place in the interim under consideration.This is why we have another gift…imagination.It is what fuels research,the term “Hypothesis”,a conjectural provision to guide investigation.This is how most all discovery is made,not accidental.I have an idea,now I will explore the possibility of it. But a certain amount of fact produces the idea.
    In reading Genesis,Revelation,and many parts of the word containing enigmas,we will do well to read,then MEDITATE on it,for a long time if need be.I personally thought on this Genesis account for many years as you all have too.This is what I have come up with,and it’s rational,and logical,and seems to fit the facts.Thanks for reading.Anyone else????
    “On my bed I think of you”,David said,”I meditate on you all night long”. Ps. 63:6

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  10. JohnS says:

    Andrew,at least you’re thinking ‘outside the box’.Put the facts you know with the things you are pondering,and look at future prophecies,and pair them into the equation.Talk it over here with everyone,else,and we might start to see a picture emerge.This we call reasoning on the scriptures,a wonderful gift from Father the WT took away from us.Hey sorry I’ve been so hard on your case ,brother,please accept my apology.You’re a good guy carrying a huge sorrow just as many are here.There is solace and truth that can be comforting,and exciting and fun to explore.There is really nothing to stop us now.
    This desire for joyous discovery of truths is what drove us all to wind up here.Our Lord wants us to learn many at this time,and thru the spirit,he will reveal them to us,at his own time,of course.That is what it means to be born again of the water,receiving the water of truth,and then Holy Spirit opens up the meaning of it all AT THE RIGHT TIME.

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  11. Jojo says:

    IF we make it through the HERE and NOW, maybe we will find out. Obviously there is so much we just wont know, and cant know right now. In my humble opinion this is an area where we have to exercise caution. There are many different types of teaching and philosophy and empty deceptions. (COLOSSIANS 2:8) In an area that is unknown we get curious, and lose patience, perhaps exactly like Eve. Then Satan capitalizes on our lack of knowledge, by supplying half-truths and outright lies. Had Adam and Eve been obedient and patient, our Creator would have revealed everything in due time. We only have our limited human experiences to draw from, so when we are told to be patient by men we can become indignant. Sometimes this is justified, if an Organization is telling you to, ” wait on God “, and they really mean, ” do whatever we say “, then anger is justified on our part. When GOD says wait, there is good reason to obey.
    The point is, dont let our limited experience with other imperfect humans, who rule themselves to thier detriment, color our perspective on YHWH’s prohibitions in the beginning. We also cant put trust in any other sources of information besides what we know to be truth. (JOHN 17:17) It is really hard sometimes to have all these questions and feel like they are constantly just out of our reach. Thats part of our lot in life and we cant complain, there is a whole universe out there that we will learn about eventually. We just have to wait a little while, and thats what our earthly lives are, just a little while. (JAMES 4:14)
    Thankfully we have the ransom. Christ Jesus knows that we are victims of Adam and Eves disobedience. We have been granted the free gift of everlasting life! ( ROMANS 6:23)
    We all love to speculate on the unknown and technically there is nothing wrong with that. We are created to observe and learn and create! Just like our Creator. We were made in his image, or likeness from the start. There is no indication in the scriptures that Adam and Eve were to live temporarily on earth. Then again ” forever is a long time “, so we cant say what the ULTIMATE PLAN really was because they blew it in the first stage! All that really matters is that we are faithful NOW. It fun and normal to wonder and question, as long as it does not overshadow what is truly important, perfecting our faith and sharing the good news! Whatever we learn in the near future, because of our pitiful lifespan, will be worth the wait!!

    Jojo

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  12. Anonymous says:

    Impossible to know all the facts. I have wonderd too and questioned. I came to the conclusion that some things we just don’t know, and to speculate, well, that’s all it is, speculation. I try to avoid these kind of discussions as it leads to filling in the blanks and debate. None of us can fully understand all of God’s planning and choices he made for us.
    Have fun with this, I look forward to the next article.

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  13. Willie says:

    We know that all translations of the Bible are imperfect in one way or the other and my favorite, the KJV, actually supports Satan’s lie [the point that is apparently confusing to Cedars and most of us] for it gives the implication that one must experience sin in order to become Godlike. Another translation has been suggested as the proper one: “And the LORD God said, Behold, the man who was as one of us now knows good and evil.” Consider these two points: (1) God does not experience evil in heaven for righteousness and happiness prevails in heaven; and (2) Adam and Eve certainly did not become Godlike, in any way, by disobeying.

    We have had a variety of thoughts presented so far, and here are mine. I think that the “tree of life” was actually a grove of such trees, thus, had they not disobeyed, there would have been plenty for the future children to eat; nevertheless, this tree or trees apparently DID have the potential to sustain life indefinitely or else it would not have been put “off limits” to Adam (Gen. 3:24). Perhaps it will grow all over the world in the Kingdom Age.

    The “tree of good and evil” was not poisonous; it was simply forbidden. The word poison appears in the Bible only eight times and not once in Genesis. Eve thought that God had said she was not supposed to touch it, for she apparently got her information second hand from Adam and he may have inadvertently added that caveat, knowing instinctively that she was the weaker sex, but what God said to him in Gen. 2:17 was, “But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.” Even if God did said not to touch it, as a means of reinforcing the command not to eat of it–for it would have been impossible to eat it without touching it–the fruit was still not poison. As Cedars said, “… she [Eve]would die as an indirect consequence of eating the fruit. That is to say, it wasn’t the fruit that killed Eve, it was the punitive actions taken by God in response to Eve’s act of disobedience that killed her – albeit hundreds of years later (according to biblical chronology).” I agree.

    Peter reminds us (II Peter 3:8) that a day with the LORD is as a thousand years, and that is logically the “day” referred to, for Adam died at the age of 930–within “the thousand year day.” This particular curse of dying within the thousand year day was not necessarily on all of mankind–only Adam. We say this because Enoch was translated so as not to see death and thus he is apparently still alive–somewhere–perhaps as a testament to the effectiveness of the fruit on that “tree of life.”

    I disagree with what John said except for the following thoughts, “And as for Satan,we know … [he had] a desire to build his own kigdom and set himself up as God.We know he hated Christ,and tried to thwart the lineage of Adam to Jesus,many times trying for the extinction of Israel,and before the flood,possibly the ruination thru hybridization of the angels/women to destroy the pure Adamic DNA,thus ruining any chance of Christ buying back the human race by offering himself [as] the perfect Adam sacrifice,as now,there would be no pure human genome left to carry the pure DNA down to the Messiah’s due time.Think about it.According to scriptures,the sacrifice of Christ and the Kingdom itself of Christ and the Holy Ones was foreordained,before the founding of the world.All that we see in Christ,the Kingdom,the mighty suffering and death testing of Christ and the anointed has all been anticipated according to scriptures….” The life comes from the Father and in Jesus’ case that was God, so in that respect the DNA was perfect, but in regard to his mother, John’s premise is well taken. On the other hand, Adam, made in the image of God, was noble in his bearing. A perfect Eve was not frigid. And Adam’s love for her–though it may sound romantic to say that he loved her so much that he thought that he couldn’t live without her–was improper, for putting love for Eve before love for GOD made her Adam’s idol. “Thou shalt have no other gods before me.” Remember Abraham’s willingness to offer Isaac, the son of promise? Whatever God commands us to do, THAT is what we should do!

    Andrew said, “I have pondered the nature of the ‘death’ experienced by Adam and Eve that day. It was said they would die the very same day they ate of the tree. Perhaps this ‘death’ was in reference to their separation from God not their physical death. Paul often referred to being dead in sin, which obviously was not physical death but spiritual.” Paul was talking to Christians. I thought that everyone [here] realized that no one was offered the opportunity for spiritual life before the sacrifice of Jesus as “a ransom for all”–not even John the Baptist (Luke 7:28). Remember that there is an earthly salvation (sand which is upon the seashore) and a heavenly salvation (stars of the heaven) promised to the seed of Abraham (Gen. 22:17). Why? “Because thou [Abraham] hast obeyed my voice.” There’s the OBEY word again!

    Disappointed said, “I think the tree of knowledge has a lot more to it than a just simple tree and obedience and disobedience.” Why do we have a problem with believing that this was a simple test of obedience? “To obey is better than sacrifice” (I Sam. 15:22). The best way that we can show God that we love him IS to OBEY him.

    Respectfully,
    Sister Willie

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  14. JohnS says:

    I do agree with the comments above,we have only limited knowledge,and to try to find every motive of the three in Eden,well,that’s just not possible.The outcome of it,was a surprise to them all,surely,as they weren’t all killed that day,I wondered if even Satan was surprised? Well,there I go again,chasing a rabbit I cannot possibly catch.
    WE can see this as a good introduction to the question of why Father allowed them to live for a time.In the sentencing at Gen.3:15,we are told the prophecy of the seed of the woman,the seed of Satan,and events concerning this seed and the triumph of a struggle between the two,where one destroys the other,is an integral part of Messianic hopes,and of vital importance to the teaching and earthly course of our Lord,Jesus Christ.Every person who desires to put faith in Christ,and receive life,should look into this,to be able to give some explanation of this important story concerning Christ,and his Kingdom.
    We will start a new topic now on the forum,under ‘Bible Subjects’.There , we will discuss the meaning of the Gen.3:15 prophecy.We will see from the scriptures what and who makes up this seed,whether any are alive today,and what these ones will do in the near future,hopefully,to satisfy events foretold in Genesis,and many other books of the Bible,events that ultimately affect our eternal destiny.
    “The Kingdom of the Seed” will become an important subject for us to consider as a group,please feel free to engage the discussion.

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  15. Disappointed says:

    Bro. Jojo.. I really like your reasoning. Sometimes we speculate too much and want to grasp and understand things we were never meant to. Maybe this is what happened to Eve, she wanted to ‘know’ too much too soon, she pushed ahead. One day God will reveal many things to us we have yet to understand but like you say we wait on HIM and no man. We have many revealed truths in God’s word that the first human pair didn’t have and I’m sure there will be more to come in the future!

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  16. Scatteredsheep says:

    Brother Cedars,

    There are people whom I can’t encourage to visit this site while such a revealing picture of Adam and Eve is in view. As someone who’s been involved in helping a recovering pornography addict, I’m painfully aware of one of the important reasons our Father must have had for making garments of animal skin for Adam and Eve after they sinned. (Genesis 3:21)

    I need to see that this site is safe for general audiences before I can recommend it or do any more posting on it.

    Hope you understand.

    Christian love,
    Scatteredsheep

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    • JJ says:

      ScatteredSheep

      My apologies for the picture. Some are not offended as it is a traditional view of Adam and Eve. Another more modest one has been put in its place though, so as to not offend.

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      • Amos says:

        JJ:
        ScatteredSheep

        My apologies for the picture. Some are not offended as it is a traditional view of Adam and Eve. Another more modest one has been put in its place though, so as to not offend.

        JJ,

        I fully concur with Sr. Scatteredsheep. That was a completely inapropriate picture to put on a site that is trying to promote the truth of God’s Word.

        The excuse that it is a “traditional picture”, in my view does not justify something that is bordering on pornography.

        I had an interesting comment prepared to put on this thread yesterday, but have thought better of it, as I don’t wish to allign myself with some comments that are quite derogatory toward women.

        Simply put, we are supposed to be “brothers of Christ”, if we are then I ask you, would Christ approve of such discussions?

        All this thread has appeared to have done is pandy to the flesh, in one way or another.

        Amos

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      • Scatteredsheep says:

        Dear Brother JJ,

        Thank you for changing the picture. Apology readily accepted.

        There was a time when I, like you and many others, was not bothered at all by such pictures. Like many, I saw the beauty in the human form….but not the danger. Experience has taught me about the danger, and in the process, and with the help of holy spirit, I’ve come to understand a couple of scriptures better. I’ve learned , for example, that unrestrained gazing upon the beauty of the human form has led even angels to sin. (Genesis 6:2) It, likewise, enticed one of Father’s most devoted human servants, King David, to sin. (2 Samuel 11:2-4)

        Of course, pictures of the unclothed, or scantily clad, human body are more readily available than the real thing.
        They’re so readily available that many people have come to accept them as completely harmless. Yet pictures, too, have a drug-like power to entice, to lead the unwary into a fantasy world and trap them in an addiction that’s every bit as powerful and destructive as chemical drugs.

        I used to think such pictures were safe to view if you were married. I’ve learned that isn’t true. In other words: Unrestrained gazing upon the beauty of the human body is safe only if that human body belongs to your marriage mate. If it’s anyone else, including pictures and statues, you may be like a deer prancing into a trap (Prov. 7:22 TEV), even if actual adultery or fornication is never committed.

        So, I guess you could say I’ve learned TTAP, The Truth About Pornography. Not that there isn’t more to learn about the dangers of it. I’m sure there is. But at least I’m better able to recognize it now when I see it. And more willing (or maybe compelled is a better word) to speak up.

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  17. serein says:

    i think adam and eve died on that actuel day then god new what they had done they gaineed an instant spiritual body new what the angels new then god transformed them back took that knolage that theyd gained from them as they wasnt ready for it and thats my opinion just cos i was a jw dosnt mean i have to still think like one im on a path of truth searching and thats what iv found out and it sound more credible to me than what iv been told up till now, no ones gona no everything for sure cos so many books were taken out the bible a very long time ago and burned so no one knows it all we can only go on what weve got,they became like the angels meaning they became exactly like em god forbid it to happen so becouse he dint want them to have that power and knolage he restord them there bodys and took it away banished em and thats my opinion.

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  18. JohnS says:

    Sister D,
    That is a good thought,and it’s how I feel about much,like the book of Revelation.This subject,though I studied on for a good 2-3 years,thinking ans re-reading.The main framework was from actions taken by the players,knowing human nature,and facts presented from their lives,in addition to dialogue that came directly from the Almighty,which is quite unique in itself,to hear him speak(as he also does to Satan in the book of Job)
    To all readers: As a lifelong 2nd generation Witness myself,I was like you all,told not to think for myself,about scriptures and their meanings.I never could obey that order,having an active imagination(I made a living doing artwork,and also as a musician,)the Father has given me a gift.I can no more turn off my imagination than a hound dog can stop chasing rabbits.Do you think the Father would have something so deep and full of undercurrents of meaning,innuendo,inference,and so attracts our interest as the very act of the murder of mankind,our own death sentence?Do you imagine he placed it there in such sweet terms,so many inticing clues,and such colorful characters that people with active interests in knowledge wouldn’t attempt to take the account apart,bit by bit,like an Algebra problem,working it over and over,until a possible solution could be reached?One that would satisfy a faith that the Creator had not “bungled the job”,but that he really knew what he was doing,and didn’t need to ‘panic’and rush another off-the-cuff situation to repair his mistake?Do we have that little faith in his wisdom and judgement?Think about it.
    For instance,Watchtower….”The Tree of Evil” was just another tree in the Garden,that Jehovah picked out of many,and told the people,”Don’t eat that fruit,cos’ I’ll kill you if you do,that’s my tree!” “The tree test was a simple test of “Obey me or else.” That’s how they made it SOUND to me when I first read it in the ‘Paradise’ book many years ago. And that image stays with you fordecades.Once I began to see WT wasn’t a group determined to dig into the Bible,in my 50’s,I really started taking a hard look at everything Biblical.Now it’s second nature,I approach the subject slowly,read it thru once,read it again,look at individual players,dialogue,circumstances surrounding the event,point of view of players,etc.etc. Let’s take another look at the account.

    Two children are born into the world.Their Father is a god,and NEVER MAKES A MISTAKE.They live in a perfect environment,full of many wonderful animal creations,eat the most delicious foods,have a fascinating teacher,loving,wise,patient,concerned and extremely interested in helping them to succeed ,and have a happy life, grow a large family,without troubles,sickness, worry,unemployment,housing cares,etc. WHY DOES HE PUT A TREE test in the garden? And it’s a life or death decision? Why not start with an easy chore,and work up to this gradually?What was he thinking? Was this a cruel joke from a sadistic God,who delights in torturing his toys(humans)?
    For one thing,the Tree was the only tree said to be place…”in the middle of the garden”.No mistaking where it is.If the tree was there in a conspicuous place,where all the family would know it’s whereabouts,and if the tree was DEATH if you touched the fruit(fact)that would be wise,no? Also,don’t you think such a dangerous tree would have LOOKED different in addition to it’s FRUIT? This was not just another apple,or peach tree singled out from the other trees,you think?What kind of idiot would make a deadly tree and its fruit look like a good fruit tree? No it was not a regular looking piece of fruit,because it says she started looking at the fruit and was noticing how beautiful it was to look at.(fact) The Tree was not just a “Tree of Death”,or a “Tree of Evil”(WT insinuation) This special tree had a dual title; “The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Bad.” Now that’s a mouthful!And wouldn’t that get the imagination stirred up? Now here’s another WT Goof.
    There was another SPECIAL tree.Where? Right next to the Tree of Knowledge. What about this tree?Since it was a TITLED TREE,no doubt it and its fruit looked unique,and the first human pair knew it’s purpose,maybe its SOLE purpose.IT CURED THE poisonous effects of the Tree of knowledge(fact)The reason why we know they knew ofthe ‘Medicine’tree,was because they (God and his son)said the couple would run to the tree of life and get the curing fruit if they didn’t cast them out,eat it,and be cured.
    Well what did WT say about this tree in their literature? Next to NOTHING.I searched the books,and finally found a little paragraph somewhere,that dismissed the whole thing as not even worth a mention! Something about their eating of this tree,was like the same as eating the fruit of any other tree,they had a right to be in the garden to eat whatever.IS THAT LAME? or what!I believe since he posted Cherubs(multiple,doesn’t say just two) mighty spirit beings and the flaming sword to revolve continually to Guard the way to the tree of Life,this thing was huge!This was miraculous,powerful,an eternal-life potion in a piece of fruit.The Bible says this tree and others like it will be growing in the New Earth,and that eating of this tree is what gives the cure of the poisonous condition of SIN that the resurrected ones will eat and be cured!FACT! Is this just a little insignificant aside in Genesis of no merit and an after thought God is kinda working on ,but didn’t know really what a booboo he made in putting that tree next to the Tree of knowledge.Think about it.Really?Is he that dense?Whose the dense one(s)?God knew angels (Satan,duh)would attempt also to get to it.
    These things I say,because we have been asleep my brothers and sisters.We are still of the mentality that we cannot learn,but must be told everything by the lazy excuse we had for teachers who really wanted to make dummies instead of scholars.That way there’s no threat to their hold on them.Governments have been doing this for centuries,feeding people,entertaining them and dumbing them down,so they stay content,and make no waves.”Bread and Circuses” the Romans called this political strategy.
    The next statement is also a fact.If you want the Holy Spirit to teach you Bible truth,you are going to have to DIG it out of your Bibles.It doesn’t come unless you use your brain.Prov.2:1-5
    Imagination?yes. Reasoning?yes. Discernment,hunches,meditation,guesswork(and yes,this is a science also) reasoning,and on and on.From here on out,I would suggest we start looking hard and long at all the important passages of scripture,and pray before you study,and just watch,the truth will start to flow out of the word and into your mind,just like water.Try it for yourself and see.Read,read,read.Form a longing for the word,and research.The Bible will not be revealed to lazy people.(fact)

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  19. JohnS says:

    I have been lovingly notified of my comment concerning a hypothetical situation,that God would never say,to Eve,in post above.It concerned Eve’s anatomy,and it offended the sister.I have apologized to her,extensively,as I will now to our dear sisters here.I am a high-strung writer,and not a professional editor.I write as my thoughts flow,so,sometimes,I am thoughtless,appear condescending,arrogant possibly.I am also the first to admit my mistakes and apologize,and I hope in the overall perspective,you all will be able to see,that I do have the spirit of God,and I write believing the best,that you all have it and are trying to acquire more of that,Bible knowledge THROUGH THAT,and not through me.I will continue to encourage and emphasize,like I did in my Gospel series,’Book of John’,that YOU,YOUSELVES,the reader of God’s word,by receiving the spirit re-birth,can be taught directly by the spirit,and the word,and you DON”T have to rely,no,God doesn’t want you to rely on others for what his Son,his word and his holy spirit are provided for,that is, to be your teacher,comforter,and eternal partner.
    I do hope you all accept my apologiy for my severe limitations that I do mean well,and am doing all I can to engeandor a love for God’s word in you,like I have in my heart.I believe you all do,or I wouldn’t even write in such a hard-hitting tough style.I felt that after being in WT pre-school for so long,we all are glad to get out and sink our teeth into the word,and analyze it in depth.
    Your brother in the fight against Bible illiteracy, John S

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  20. Anonymous says:

    Really? I see worse pics in the wt and awake of satanic origin and death and destruction. I have seen worse in paintings that are very popular that were painted hundreds of years ago. I was not offended, nor did I pay attention to it. I think we should be careful not to “label” anyone here, or be too harsh. Apologies were made, pic was changed. Happy ending……I don’t want to be “thinned skinned” (for myself), I know I have certainly made loads of mistakes in my life with no intent to do so. It’s nice when we react with love and kindness.

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  21. greybeard says:

    About the first photo…

    Who told you that they were naked? (or worse, porn???) Have you eaten from the tree that God commanded you not to eat from? Genesis 3:11 Maybe we all have LOL 😉

    It is clear in this second photo Eve has no top. In some countries showing her face is viewed as nakedness too.

    Maybe after we eat from the tree of life this won’t be such a offense any more.

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  22. steamrolled says:

    There are a lot of unfilled blanks with Adam and Eve. Common sense would tell me that they did enjoy sex relations-but Eve probably had a closed up womb, so she did not conceive any children-the Bible speaks of times when wombs were closed up making the women unable to bear children. This is only my take on it-believe that after Eve ate of the fruit-she used a denial of sex to get Adam to eat the fruit-and a deprivation of her companionship. After Eve ate, they resumed sex relations and her womb was opened to bear children. Correction-after Adam ate of it. Also believe the org. is incorrect in saying that the creator CHOSE not to foresee this-it makes no sense to me that He would choose to not foresee something-I believe he knows the outcome of every situation. A comment touched on the fact that this all was rigged to teach an unforgettable lesson for mankind on reliance on him and the meaning of suffering. I think that peson is on to something. This can be verified-when the nation of Isreal split-the clincher is in 1 kings ch. 12 vs. 15-even though Reheboam could have listened to the people and preserve the unity of the nation, he did not-though he had a choice-he took the wrong choice-The creator manuevered things-so that would be the outcome and thus the split-which was in line with His will would occur. This is one example of what Im referring to. He knew what the outcome was going to be-but does that mean all the suffering in the world is all his fault-no. But yet, a valueble lesson os being taught that would not have otherwise been the case-the almighty rigged the failure in the garden of Eden-but for the long term benefit of mankind.

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  23. DanielB says:

    Dear brother I don’t believe “the almighty rigged the failure in the garden of Eden” ; but rather , Yehowah had established the perfect opportunity for humankind , while that fallen angel rigged the failure .

    Does this make sense ?

    Respectfully . .

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  24. Euphrates says:

    There is something important missed in genisis, it’s that when satan told Eve” you will surely not die” he lied and secondly when he said ” for God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes shall be opened and you will be like God knowing good and evil, satan lied again. If u look at alot of religions today, Kabbalah , Buddhism, evolution( which is a religion ) humanism and more they are because of this lie, what do they all have in common, that through meditation in the case of Buddhism and Kabbalah, or through enlightenment and knowledge in the case of evolution and humanism that we may become gods! It all does away with God! And as Buddhist believe that believing in God is a hinderance! The lie that Satan told Eve is still being perpetuated today, amazing isn’t it that when you read the passages closely what you can discover.

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    • Excelsior says:

      With the deepest respect, all the comments are making a huge assumption. There is no evidence that an Adam and Eve existed.

      Some research has pointed to there being a very fruitful valley, bordered by 4 rivers. The Assyrians had another name for Eden. The tale is a history of the change from hunter gatherer to farmer.

      Occam’s razor helps us to cut down on assumptions for explanations. It was invented by a religious man!

      It is far more likely that the story of Eden is as described above, rather than an accurate account of how mankind came to be.

      There are many inconsistencies in this tale. It does not reflect the evidence gleaned from the study of heredity and genetics.

      Best wishes, Excelsior!

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  25. JohnS says:

    I really believe Satan’s PLAN was to get Eve to eat the fruit of the Tree of Life,and “live to time indefinite”,and in this way he would ‘prove’God a liar,and bring Eve to his side,not out of any love for her,mind you,but to use her to start his own kingdom.That’s why the Father posted so much firepower at the entrance;to keep anyone,angels or people out.I guarantee you he had some of that fruit put away for that purpose.But it probably went bad like the manna,if kept overnight,or Father just caused it to spoil.To me,the idea that Satan wouldn’t have developed a chess-player-like strategy is ignorant,or that God didn’t purpose for people to grow through the Tree of Knowledge either.

    I’m sorry but I must state this again,but with a twist.Satan didn’t show good sense or have even a good plan,but evil clouds a bad person’s judgement.Look at God’s pronouncement to Satan,that now the woman will hate you,and you will hate her.Women even today,except evil ones, have a dread of the demons,and a revulsion,they don’t even want to talk on this subject,and some are all over me about this discussion,and to these I say,just don’t read this,then,if it bothers you,as men are trying to put together some truth about the important passage put in the scriptures,Genesis chptrs 3-6.This doesn’t bother brothers,as a rule,and we want to learn what these things mean.Please allow this,as God wouldn’t have recorded it if he didn’t want us to think DEEPLY about his purposes in the beginning and what Satan was up to,understand? This may not be the Gospel,but is ‘all scripture inspired and beneficial’ for teaching and setting things straight.Brothers,what do you think,are we wrong in discussing the account analytically? I know I spoke indelicately about a women aging,and I’m sorry for that,and meant no disrespect,but some are still mad about it,but I will state for the record,I am missing teeth,bald,and wrinkled,though at one time not a bad looking fella,but those days are gone,and if someone calls me an old-timer or makes another remark about old age,so what?I’ll be DEAD soon,what does it matter?I don’t take offense to this.But my wife who I told the story to also chastised me and said not to be talking about women’s bodies,so I will steer well clear from now on.Sorry.

    Lastly,there are several,not one or two scriptures that show the coming of Christ as a ransom,and the selection of heirs to the kingdom brotherhood was foreordained and predestined before the earth was formed,so,God knew that probably early in man’s existence,the curiosity would urge men to find out what this tree was all about,or would we say Eve was evil,to take the fruit?
    One other thing;some are still of the thinking that God “cannot look on what is evil”,so,he NEEDS A MEDIATOR to talk to sinful man and have dealings with him,as if he was a “boy in a bubble ” with a handicap or germ-phobia.What a croc!If you notice,God had a discussion with Satan right in a general assembly of angels in Job’s day.And up into the last days,demons were in heaven ,”accusing our brothers”,and it took a war in heaven to remove them.Lastly,God did speak with,tenderly clothe and instructed Adam and Eve after the fall.And it is a fact that he showed Cain and Abel about sacrificing animals as an act of worshiop to him,no doubt setting up the ransom concept early.There was also a running dialogue between Cain and his heavenly Father,to the contrary of the absurd statement that ‘God can’t deal with sinful man’ because he’s too holy. Yes the Bible says God doesn’t WANT to speak or listen to wicked people who are sinning and murdering,none of us want to talk to these person’s either.I find in Cain’s discussion with his heavenly Father not a little sorrow of not being able to talk with God again,listen to his comments in Genesis,oh yes,they talked very often ,that is stated.The Bible also clearly spoke to Moses,”face to face”…fact.
    There is great need to read deeply into passages previously ignored,and ignore what WT and other former men merely glanced at,or purposely DOWNPLAYED.Agreed?

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  26. Anonymous says:

    Euphrates, that is an excellent observation! How many religions do NOT teach the immortality of the soul–the lie that we do not die? Only five that I can think of.
    I Tim. 6:13-16 says, “I [Paul] give thee [Timothy] charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession; {14} That thou [Timothy] keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: {15} Which in his times he [Jesus] shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; {16} Who only hath immortality [i.e., God], dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see; to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.”
    Our always just, always loving, all-powerful, all-wise God KNEW that EXPERIENCE WITH EVIL would be the GREATEST DETERRENT OF EVIL in the Ages to come–eternity.

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  27. Baruch says:

    Cedar your answer to your Question was really in front of you all this time, your reasoning was well thought the answer to your question is found in the text itself …I quote: You positively will not die. For God knows that in the very day of your eating from it your eyes are bound to be opened and you are bound to be like God, knowing good and bad”. – Gen 3:4,5

    Now ask yourself this question ? why did Jehovah make two trees one called the tree of knowledge and the other the tree of life.?

    Don’t you think that maybe Jehovah had intended for Adam and eve to partake of both of the trees? …? what did the angel who was speaking through the serpent say to her?..For God knows that in the very day of your eating from it…he knew the angel knew Jehovah’s intention. he basically used a truth to make it sound as thou Jehovah was withholding a right that would go to them if only they did it under God’s terms when they where ready to partake of both of the trees.

    the English word knowing comes from the hebrew word Yadah..which Hebraically, knowledge is not just knowing who someone is, it is devotion to them as well. Jews see knowledge of God as intimacy with God, knowing him as a son does his father, and as a wife her husband.

    so Adam and eve where not yet ready to have this intimacy or knowledge without understanding that they needed to Obey him in all things and that he had the full right to tell them what is good and evil. in that way they would come to a better deep understanding or knowledge of good and evil…and when they did fully understand that..it is only then that Jehovah would allow them to eat of both trees and then they would become like there father in the fullest sense.

    ?so what do…

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  28. Baruch says:

    Cedar your Question was in front of you all this time, it is found in the very text you Quoted:“You positively will not die. For God knows that in the very day of your eating from it your eyes are bound to be opened and you are bound to be like God, knowing good and bad”. – Gen 3:4,5

    Ask yourself this question ? why did Jehovah make two trees for?
    the tree of knowledge and the tree of life ? what was it’s purpose?

    Is it a possibility that Jehovah had the Intention for Adam and eve to partake of both trees? notice what the angel said to eve..:For God knows that in the very day of your eating from it,

    You see the angel knew Jehovah’s intention, what he did was take a truth and twist it, to make it as tho Jehovah was with holding a right that would have been there’s, but it would be under God’s terms. and when they where ready. the English word Knowing comes from the Hebrew word Yadah ..which it to know someone or something Intimately..you see brother.. Adam and eve where not ready to know or have a deep understanding of what is good and evil without understanding fully, who had the right to let them know what is good and evil and to fully understand that Jehovah is to be obeyed in all things.

    and it is only then would they be ready to partake of both of the trees and in that sense they would be become like Jehovah his children fully understanding good and evil and have eternal life, but it would be done under his terms..and not Independently.

    ? What do you think does this make sense to you?

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  29. Anonymous says:

    Please read the following link as I feel it will provide many answers to the OP question…

    http://thetruthbegetstruth.blogspot.com/

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  30. JohnS says:

    Anonymous, thankyou… I read his hypothesis, and liked a lot of what he said, I hope he comes here to discuss it and other things. Does he wish that, I wonder, or to stay on that site? there is more I would like to say on this topic. And Bro. Baruch, many have similar thoughts as you on the T. of K., and eventual eating of it. Don’t take Satan’s reasoning as a ‘Fountain of Truth’ though would be my advice, from experience we know his ‘sources’ are questionable.(Sorry bad joke about an evil joker)

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  31. JohnS says:

    My imagination engine has been fired up now, and instead of turning it off, I would like to state something that occurred to me as I read Baruch’s thoughts….
    Since Adam and Eve, our grandparents ate the fruit, and possessed any , or all (?) the tree offered, then might it be reasonable that WE ALSO have acquired the ‘Knowledge of Good and Evil’? For instance, sexual desire to the point of temptation . Maybe temptaion itself could be a good thing, as it is just the possibility of a certain action, not the event. But rape,or homosexuality will get you the flames. All this we KNOW from experience, now. We , unfortunately are way aware of badness in all its forms, as I’m sure God and Christ were also. Maybe even it had already occurred in other races of other places, there’s nothing written to say man is the first intelligent creature in the physical universe. The Catholic church used to make statements like that, but the Bible doesn’t state this.
    I wonder if disagreement, mild envy, even some jealousy, not extreme, bad moods, misunderstandings, and hurt feelings, heartache from crushes, real or imagined, what if all these are far from being ‘imperfect’ traits, and just part of our personalities that contribute to growth? After all, how can babies learn anything without doing many things the WRONG way with attitudes to go with it? I think we have had an ultra-narrow minded view of what ‘human perfection’ really is.
    Like I said, Satan has been ‘sinning’ since the beginning, and he hasn’t died, neither have the demons, but must be executed. What if it’s the same with us? What if some bad traits are part of just being immature, and not symptoms of ‘sin’. If just being immature, or throwing a temper tantrum was a’sin’, that results in death, wouldn’t Adam and Eve have been warned about the consequences of all the ‘sins’ we have fabricated in our thinking are not the behavior of ‘perfect’ people? To me, for instance, I can easily understand Eve was having a serious problem with the marriage, otherwise she definitely would have told Adam about the serpent/fruit temptation. But this problem, which may have accellerated or excasserbated the eating of the fruit, may not of in itself have been a ‘death’ issue. Maybe even bad arguments between the couple could have occurred, and I don’t doubt they had many disagreements in taste, appetite, feelings, interests, and had much to learn about giving each other ‘room to breathe’. I…

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  32. JohnS says:

    Well some of my babble got cut off, but do you take my point? How do we know what ‘perfect behavior’ is?
    Is everyone in the paradise earth going to walk around with a big stupid smile on his/her face every day every where? Will sad songs be outlawed? Will your wife never put on a hot dress for you to tempt you? Or a teen-age girl never get a crush on a young, single good-looking schoolteacher? Will there be exciting dance music for adolescents to develope hormones over? Will we all have to just listen to ‘Country ‘ music all the time?(joke… I like country music) I mean what part of sex will be viewed as normal? Just think of all the part flirtation plays in courtship. Is all this immoral behavior? Look at cats, dogs, birds, WHALES…. are all the flirtations immoral?
    And then other behaviors, like teasing, making fun of something, or somebody. certain practical jokes, or little white lies that deter not harm.( telling someone to go see a movie, so a surprise party could be prepared)…and on, and on. WT was so strict, they could have put chastity belts on us if it would have been allowed. But that isn’t the answer, the punish-for-everything approach, I mean. Religion has been doing that for 1000’s of years, it doesn’t work. Jehovah wants us to LEARN the love way. I think to learn it, we had to go through the experience we have with the Tree of Knowledge and Death too.

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  33. Ruth says:

    Bro JohnS
    Im not sure what you are getting at here. But there is one thing l do know.
    our father is holy and he wants us to be the same. We must strive to keep ourselves without spot from the world. 1Corinthians 3:18
    Things true
    Things honest
    things just
    things pure
    things lovely
    things of good report
    things of virtue Philippians 4-8
    sister Ruth

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  34. JohnS says:

    Thanks sister, Not trying to be lewd or immoral, trying to establish what is human about us, and what is immoral. I am aware of indecency, this is discussing human sexuality versus what’s considered immoral as those who think sexual thinking is immoral. What I mean is, if flirtation and sex appeal is wrong, then the earth wouldn’t have gotten populated, more or less. That’s the same with perfect people would never argue, or have serious disagreements on things, or divergent tastes, or even viewpoints. This is all natural and necessary for growth and maturity. I feel eating of the Trre of Knowledge in the long run, is also a part of our learning process, as it is now, we fully know what good and bad are, I don’t think the experience will be removed in the Kingdom, but will always be in our memories as a lesson learned.
    As I stated, I believe Eve was havivg marital problems with Adam, else she would have gone to him for the serpent showing up, without eating the fruit. It doesn’t mean she was a ‘sinner’ because they were having differences. That’s the point I am making. Problems in relationships, needing to get worked out are natural, I believe, and not just unique to ‘sinful’ mankind.

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  35. whateverhappenedtome says:

    Bulls-eye! This exact same question I asked few years ago that I was frowned at, and I thought it was the way I asked the question, because I said it like this:

    Did Satan really lie to Eve? Or did he just bypassed God’s authority by telling Eve ahead of time about the trees….?
    It seems like he was just like a student who took the test first and gave the answers to his fellow student attending the next test session or maybe someone from behind the stage who told the audience about the magicians tricks ….?

    so i was then rebuked because my question was a bit blasphemous
    I have that Genesis 3:22 in mind for ages…it seems like the statement confirms what Satan said to Eve was, okay maybe, not all true, but half true..

    i think the point is just that, God being the creator of the universe deserves respect and exclusive devotion of course…which is something Satan mocked -the issue of sovereignty..

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  36. JohnS says:

    Good thought, that you have the nerve to freely start thinking analytically, as we were not encouraged to think for ourselves with that bunch before. If Eve had stopped to think it through , like we are, and then go ask questions of Adam and God about all this, think how much trouble could have been avoided. Is God that unapproachable, that he doesn’t want us to know the answers, AND the reasons?
    Abraham questioned him over the destruction of any righteous men in Sodom, three times, God didn’t get mad about, it, just calmly answered him. The disciples asked Christ about the mystery of the wheat and weeds parable, Christ explained the answer in detail, and the Lord came to earth to bring us the light, the water of truth, and it just POURED out of him, daily. They WANT us to learn, they are not wanting us to be in darkness.
    We may not be ready for some things, as we’re not to the point of ‘need to know’ or able to grasp, or the timing not right, or simply God doesn’t want the evil one or evil humans to know it at that time. So info is withheld . That’s the time for faith and patience.
    We have been left with much to ponder and plenty to work on personality-wise. For instance, how many of us have memorized and applied all the Proverbs of Solomon? Applied all the counsel in the sermon on the Mount? Unravelled Revelation? Memorized and can recite all the parables?

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  37. doug says:

    In my view you are all wrong. There was no Adam and Eve, garden of Eden, talking serpents,and talking God. etc. As so many stories in the Bible there are allegories and metaphors which MAY have been intended to teach certain lessons about humans, their dependence on God, and certainly reinforce the notion that everyone needed to be a “believer” to escape the sentence of sin. It is a great preamble or mission statement for a corporate philosophy which underscores a reason to be religious. But is simple and pure BS if thought to be an actually true event. No evidence of any kind exists that proves that any of what is said actually took place, and it flies against reason for obvious reasons. The whole narrative lays the ground work for the lowering of self esteem that is requited to make one an obedient atomoton to religion. Check out the almost identical accounts found in other , older cultures, like the aborigines of Australia whose written history goes back over 20,000 years.

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  38. Chris says:

    I have contemplated this scene in Genesis for many years and it has at times been both clear in its simplicity and vague in its complexity.
    One issue is the translation of the narrative between the various parties and, while I don’t doubt for a moment these things took place, the issue of the exact nature of words and their meaning is, as always, at the heart of translation and interpretation.
    There are many gaps in the information presented, but that is also true of many scriptural accounts (e.g. Jesus early life) so our questioning can only revolve around what we have come to know about the nature of God through years of Bible study. This is not something we can come to through direct or private inspiration in the way Jehovah used the prophets or by other ‘inspired’ writings but rather as Gods spirit acts in a general way to mould our spirit to be in harmony with his will. Acts 17:27
    To that end we must accept that Jehovah acts without guile, as shown by the example of His Son. Hebrews 7:26. So when the Genesis account says that Jehovah asked Eve “who told you that you were naked”? And “have you eaten from the tree that I told you not to eat from”? Then I accept that God did not know they had partaken until he questioned them, otherwise it was pretence on His part. This in no way implies that Jehovah was ignorant or stupid in some way or couldn’t choose to know, but rather that when He put Adam and Eve in the Garden He quite literally trusted them. He didn’t figuratively hide behind a bush and wait to see what they would do. He left them with instruction and communicated with them “during the breezy part of the day”. There were however ‘watchers’ who had been responsible for aspects of creation, most notably the angel who was to become Satan.
    Man as a creation was distinctly different from spirit creatures in that he did not know good and evil, but was offered the choice. The various understandings and explanations of evil have been portrayed ever since but it seems clear that all spirit creatures knew the difference otherwise why would Jehovah say “He has become like us, knowing good from bad”.
    The word “evil” has become somewhat of a misnomer as we tend to associate it with brutal or wicked acts. These things are an extension of evil. Yet we know that God Is Love and as such does not force anyone to worship him, including the angels, but recommends his way of doing things because as the Creator he understands the perfect balance of the universe. When Jehovah chose to create other spirit beings he could have created automatons but why make subjects that are only your friends because they have no choice. Jehovah recommends himself because of his personality not because he is Almighty. So being created with knowledge of good and bad didn’t mean that Jehovah put bad thoughts into their mind to choose from but rather they had the capacity to choose to act apart from God. Ultimately their bad course would end in failure not because of God sabotaging their efforts but because a bad course goes against the natural/spiritual laws that Jehovah has in place.
    We want to be God’s friend but recognise that other imperfect humans who accept Jesus also want that and we do not stand in their way because we are putting ourselves between them and Jesus who purchased us all. This is a fundamental basis of our being ransomed and by contrast anything outside this is lawlessness and those practicing lawlessness would seek to regulate this divine arrangement.
    I personally believe that the impact of the fact that they had sinned on their consciences would have had a huge effect on their mental health, and the guilt and realisation of what they had done would have affected their relationship with their children. The Tree of Knowledge didn’t have to be literally poisonous to kill them, the damage to their conscience and alienation from Jehovah would ultimately do that. The assertion that the Tree of Knowledge was poisonous implies malice on Gods part.
    It seems clear though that they had been partaking of the Tree of Life while in Eden and this tree had the capacity to sustain life on a physical level indefinitely and wasn’t involved in any choice of good and evil but was there to support optimal physical existence. Perhaps as Man extended the Paradise earth-wide many other Trees of Life would exist. This indicates to me that Man was created mortal and subject to potential for injury and death. Why does our body heal itself even as imperfect creatures if there was no need to stem the flow of blood from a cut etc. The Tree of Life was created for exactly that purpose as part of Jehovah’s physical creation of Man. All physical things atrophy and decay, Adam would have seen that as animals died in the Garden. Satan’s challenge to Eve was to become like a spirit creature, like God, choosing to know good and bad and then acting independently in their decision making. By partaking of the Tree of Knowledge they sought to become free of dependence on the Tree of Life. God had effectively been dismissed as their instructor and provider, so why should he continue to provide the Tree of Life for them as if nothing had happened.
    Into the breach stepped Jesus who effectively bought mankind off Jehovah and said that despite the sentence of death on mankind he would pay a ransom for them, and as the sacred secret unfolded He offered spiritual life to his followers. But the purchase price was for all mankind and the completion of an earthly paradise was never in question but rather the administration to achieve it was initially to be taken from the nation of Israel, but this was extended to the Gentiles or “other sheep” as most of them proved unworthy.

    I was going to say more but my brain has run out of breath:)
    Love to you all

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  39. Anonymous says:

    Chris, I like your thinking, as you are reasoning on the events, and seeing behind the choices the motive and purpose possibilities. I would like to expound on this subject again, but for now, just a quick thought; what if the “sin” was in fact, the dumb move of eating the death-dealing fruit (even inadvertently touching it would kill). Then, only a cure for the physical symptoms would do to erase the poisonous effects: that was…the Tree of Life , as God said. I have reasoned that it is possible that humans weren’t designed as pre-programmed robots, but would be learning through trial, error, have immaturity and inexperience… in growing up, and character to work on and improve …even in a “perfect” state. I don’t believe “perfect” means always making the God/wisdom choice, do you? That would be forethought and prescience or all-knowledge. No, instead, I think the human ,even thiough perfect, would have to train his/her personality to love, faithfulness, morality, education , and EVERYTHING… nothing would be automatic. WT treats “perfection” as the pre-fruit condition of the first pair….they would never “sin” or make any mistakes in this stage. I feel this is way over-reaching/ simplification of the human status.The penalty for eating the fruit…not any other stupid move….was death. This fruit was the killer. A poisonous plant. God warned them they would experience all manner of evil if they went this way, along with learning a whole lot of APPRECIATION for being obedient, if they had (Good knowledge). The term ‘Sin’ means, as we know,….missing the mark. So after their bodies were damaged, they certainly were not running at peak physical/mental capacity, having been poisoned, and genetically altered, now, as we pass this condition on, which also shows it is a PHYSICAL MALADY. Also the obvious reference to the trees of life in the new order BEING THE CURE for mankind. If not literal….. then what? I wondered at this, because the demons/Satan continue to lie, murder, and all manners of wickedness, yet they are not dying. The penalty to Adam and Eve was for eating the fruit, not disobeying God, fighting with Eve, cussing, hitting, stealing, or even lying, whatever…..possibly something even”Perfect people” may do during a growth-learning lifetime. Do you see this possibility?
    This is why I can see Eve was really having ‘problems’ with her new ‘marriage’ relationship….if in fact they had consumated it yet at all! They both griped to God about each other at their sentencing…and were not happy with their ‘marriage’ obviously. yet, they were still ‘perfect’, but may even have shown childish, immature traits. Growing…growing…learning. I think possibly the ‘perfect’ type-cast needs to be analyzed ,as WT put this in a term of God-ability.

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  40. Dave says:

    I’ve also spent time contemplating this story, and there’s a few elements I’d like to add for consideration.

    You often hear Xians say, “God created A&E with Free Will; (FW) He didn’t want to create robots who HAD to love Him and obey Him”.

    Nice, but wrong.

    A basic definition of FW: “the ability to make decisions free from coercion.”

    (think of the typical statement found in a will, “I, John Smith, being of sound mind and body, free from undue coercion and duress….” That’s FW.)

    So the moment God issued the first-recorded proclamation of Divine Will (DW) in the Bible (“thou shalt not eat of the fruit”), God instantly removed that particular decision from man’s FW domain (which would include the choice to eat from any OTHER trees in the Garden, depending on their mood), and placed it under His DW, under HIS DW domain.

    In other words, the very issuance of the prohibition meant the subsequent choice to eat of the fruit CANNOT properly be characterized as an exercise of man’s FW.

    Of course, God does NOT give man the PERMISSION to act against His DW (even under the pretense of man’s exercising FW): it’s the very definition of sin, and God doesn’t give man permission to sin!

    @@@@@

    Being made “in God’s image” refers to possessing similar mental capabilities, senses, capabilities for communication, etc.

    However, the ability to determine right from wrong and good from evil refers to man’s moral sense, morality, the ability to write our own laws, literally choosing our own path for civilization vs relying on God as the moral lawgiver and authority to tell us what to do. That’s a common theme throughout the Bible, as is the basis of the original sin. Hence, the fruit from the “tree of knowledge of good and bad” imparted a sense of inherent morality, an inner compass, which is something that A&E weren’t originally created with: otherwise, there would not be a TEMPTATION to eat!

    Need further evidence? They only recognized the wrongness of disobeying God AFTER eating of the “instant-morality” fruit, hence their trying to hide, realizing they were naked (feeling shame over nudity, a common behavior in Genesis, eg Noah’s shame after his nakedness), feeling guilt, and trying to blame each other when before God.

    The Bible depicts A&E as existing in a child-like state before eating, more evidence suggesting their state of moral diminished-capacity (as if they were created as sociopaths, i.e. humans who are unable to recognize the immorality of their actions, as if operating free of guilt or remorse, or a conscience. An interesting angle to consider is they may in fact had been created “in the image of God”, with God perhaps having such sociopathic tendencies, as well? How else do you describe YHWH of the OT?).

    So once armed with the individual capacity for determining their own moral course, they in fact became LIKE Gods, feeling entitled to determine morality on their own.

    The paradox of A&E is, how could they be held responsible for disobeying God when they may not have even understood the ramifications of their actions? In law, we rely on a diminished-capacity defense for defendants (e.g. young children) who are incapable of understanding the consequences of their actions at the time they committed a crime. Surely punishing A&E AND their descendants with capital punishment is a bit harsh, if they were operating on diminished capacity?

    Point being, God created mankind with perhaps the DESIRE to exercise free will, but hamstrung them without giving them the capability to exercise it in a responsible fashion; but more importantly, he didn’t give man His PERMISSION to exercise it.

    (I’ve often thought that perhaps God should’ve let A&E eat a little bit of the fruit BEFORE having them decide whether it was good to disobey Him: I know, that would be no fun…. Hence the paradox of the forbidden fruit story)

    @@@@

    Of course, this raises other questions, as well:

    If God knew that this forbidden fruit had such disastrous consequences for humanity, why did He leave it unguarded in the MIDDLE of the Garden? Principles of reasonable custodianship would require placing the fruit under lock and key, or behind an electric fence (just like you cannot leave sweet-tasting antifreeze out, where animals and toddlers can drink it).

    Both God and Serpent told half-truths, AKA “weasel words” (not surprising, being that the story was written by Jews, people who are not exactly strangers to lawyering and legal profession, LOL! The stereotype of a proud Jewish Mother bragging about her son, the lawyer, is not without basis!).

    Satan was truthful, in that the fruit DID have the promised effect on their cognitive senses, although he challenged the literal vs figurative interpretation of the word “day”.

    Since God delivered the death sentence, He made sure that “you will die” bit happened (although he didn’t mention that said death wasn’t from toxicity of the fruit, but from His blocking access to the Tree of Life).

    It’s an interesting story, for sure, but I know a creation myth when I see one: the story includes an explanation of why humans die, why child-birth pain exists (interesting that God said the pain would be multiplied, when there’s no evidence that Eve even had a frame of reference?) a rationale for male chauvinism/roots of male dominance, and an explanation of why humans (esp women) fear snakes.

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  41. John S says:

    Dear Dave,
    I appreciate your thinking on these lines. And you have been thinking, it is clear. But if you don’t see the fact that even if we are sickened, weak, and dying, we have learned a WHOLE LOT from eating that fruit….Good …and Bad.We also know how precious life is, and how important to listen and obey God. We also , were subjected to alien intervention and conquest, which we are still going to see Christ exterminate. Mankind is going straight up the graph on the learning curve….right out of the “box” of Eden, don’t you agree? And when you’re Father is God, he can erase the pain in time, resurrect all, as he has promised, and make all things new. So, we learn, learn, learn from the Tree of Knowledge of GOOD and Evil, don’t we? It’s a good thing, though it hurts at times, we are advancing , one century at a time. It has only been 6000 years, we are just getting started.Christ came to really help us figure out there are solutions. He proved his sonship of God, and did the miraculous good works, proving to all,… God intends to heal the pains, and never bring them back. It was all man’s doing , really, but he should have listened. We must listen, after all, we did not create ourselves,….agreed? The point is love is the way, and learning through love for God, is the big picture, not trying to rule His universe, as Satan did, or Eve, possibly, who got taken in by the duper.
    There are many issues brought up by the account…solid, important, sensible. Eve’ reticence to commit to relations for childbearing is obvious to me.”What? a baby human is going to come out of where? I don’t think so!” And Adam was VERY disappointed and gushing after her all the way. Why else would he have joined her? Love? Passion? A crush? He may have been pushing her, as they were like children it ‘s possible. We can tell from dialogue, they even believed the snake-talk….gullible.
    I will continue to say, “People don’t always do the smart thing.” And that is true, it was a stupid mistake. But, odds were that it was inevitable , bound to happen sooner, than later, even murder pops up with the first generation of offspring, and envy/jealousy. All things must be learned through this painful growing-up “seeing is believing” method we humans tend to fall for, over and over. We are stubborn, willful, and want to try out things for ourselves,….and we resent people telling us what to do,….EVEN our creator, it seems, just like kids resent their parents, in every culture. But we also learn the hard way, and we learn the lessons oh-so-well, because of it.Some of us will learn to not repeat our mistakes, and some of us will learn from the mistakes of others….but learn we CAN,…..question is…will WE learn, or turn our hearts from God, and throw a fit, and say “I hate you!”,…like a spoiled brat kid who needs a good butt-beatin’. Well, God is old-fashioned, I guess, because he believes discipline is still the best teacher.

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  42. gladtoknow says:

    Cedars, Check out what Quran has to say on this subject. I will be happy to send you an english copy free. I was having a bible study at the library with a student when I checked out this book for over a year. Yusuf Ali s translation with commentary. please email me to let me know.

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  43. Reader says:

    I will suggest there was just the one actual tree, but the perspective on the tree changes, causing the second tree.
    In Satan’s lie the tree gave Godlike knowledge without death.
    So Jehovah responding sarcastically to the possibility of the tree becoming a cult object to these two new gods, who think it gave everlasting life.
    And a cult object it became leading even to Christmas.

    [more on my website if adjudicator wishes]
    optional links :http://www.yahweh-immanuel.inf.....eeoneortwo
    Strictly no FADS claim , just my [James 1 v 5]look where it got me- is offered to your [Acts 17 v 11] B

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  44. Reader says:

    Dear All;
    Pain of Childbirth?
    Just done another scan of the messages above, covered it but on a hard to find page so here is a link below.

    I do not think it was vindictive or direct punishment, more a case of had to! If the word neoteny puzzles look up axolotl.

    http://yahweh-immanuel.info/si.....ml#Neoteny
    B

    extract is about:Genesis 1 v 28,29,30,31

    The Sixth Day, part 4, Mankind Commissioned, God’s task completed.
    Blessed Them

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  45. DeWandelaar says:

    The first accounts in Genesis have made me think a lot as well and some points are not clear at all. I have been wondering about it a lot and want to give my two cents as well:

    First of all: The Trees were BOTH real… Adam and Eve were real and because they are hindered by cherubs and a sword the Tree of Life had to be real as well to some extend. Now comes the funny part: Cherubs and a Sword… helloooo?! There WERE no swords in that time so how would Adam be able to even know what a sword was?! Also… Cherubs are spirits… and the sword was made of spirit.

    I think the Tree of Life and the Tree of knowledge therefore WERE both real… but it was probably not a FYSICAL tree but a SPIRITUAL tree. As a human with the guidance of God and in God’s image they probably were able to communicate or even go to the heavens to some extend… They were spiritual in nature with a fysical body. Now note what happened when they ate of the fruit of the tree of knowledge: They suddenly became aware of their FYSICAL body… they were naked… they now were only fysical people. Their only hope to stay spiritual beings as well would have been to eat from the spiritual tree… and they were not allowed to do that in any way since they were NOT allowed to enter the garden of Eden.

    The thought of spiritual trees is not strange if we conscider the book of Revelations. Also (aprocive) the book of Enoch (who was closer to Adam then anyone else (including the writer of Genesis) talks about the location of the tree of knowledge:

    [Chapter 32 of the Book of Henoch]

    1 And after these fragrant odours, as I looked towards the north over the mountains I saw seven mountains full of choice nard and fragrant trees and cinnamon and pepper. 2 And thence I went over the summits of all these mountains, far towards the east of the earth, and passed above the Erythraean sea and went far from it, and passed over the angel Zotiel. And I came to the Garden of Righteousness, 3 I and from afar off trees more numerous than I these trees and great-two trees there, very great, beautiful, and glorious, and magnificent, and the tree of knowledge, whose holy fruit they eat and know great wisdom. 4 That tree is in height like the fir, and its leaves are like (those of) the Carob tree: and its fruit 5 is like the clusters of the vine, very beautiful: and the fragrance of the tree penetrates afar. Then 6 I said: ‘How beautiful is the tree, and how attractive is its look!’ Then Raphael the holy angel, who was with me, answered me and said: ‘This is the tree of wisdom, of which thy father old (in years) and thy aged mother, who were before thee, have eaten, and they learnt wisdom and their eyes were opened, and they knew that they were naked and they were driven out of the garden.’

    Source: http://www.hiddenbible.com/enoch/online.html

    There is also a other sentence in Genesis that should be noted in respect to the above. People do read it all the time but do not conscider the big meaning of it.

    Genesis 6:3 says:
    Then the Lord said, z“My Spirit shall not abide in man forever, for he is flesh: his days shall be 120 years.”

    God stated that the humans where ONLY flesh… there was not anyone who even WANTED to BE spirit!
    That was the sole reason why the humans (together with all other FLESH) were to be destroyed… they had absolutely no connection with the spirit world whatsoever… except people like Henoch and later on Noah.

    I therefore think that the story of Adam and Eve has a high spiritual connection… even more then we think.

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    • Reader says:

      DeWandelaar: Genesis 6:3 says:
      Then the Lord said, z“My Spirit shall not abide in man forever, for he is flesh: his days shall be 120 years.”

      Dear DeWandelaar
      I would suggest this is the reduction in life span, Moses coined the three score and ten, in Psm 90 v 10, but Moses lived to be…..Duteronomy 34 v 7! and a small number of people still live to this as the top of our age range.
      more at; http://www.yahweh-immanuel.inf.....essed.html
      B

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  46. DeWandelaar says:

    That has always been a viewpoint of some but in essence it does not matter: what I tried to explain is that humans were merely flesh (as are the animals)… it shows me that humans were more then that in the earlier days.

    When Jesus walked the earth and was baptised with spirit he could actually see his past… the heavens were opened… that “spiritual” way of seeing things shows that perfect humans had, to some extent, excess to the heavens.

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  47. Reader says:

    Dear DeWandelaar;
    I agree our lifeform is much as the animal, with greater inteligence and moral attribute plus a concept of time.

    There may be a danger nearby in your reasoning path; in that God Jehovah will not respond to us directly but only through Jesus. So you can contact the Divine God by prayer asked in Jesus name. So are there human abilities built in to contact the divine? don’t bother [this is the danger] to try because Satan and demons have no scruples about who they contact.

    Look to the day when God becomes all things to everyone, then we’ll all know- we can ask Him ourselves!

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