How Important is our doctrine?Many come to this web site confused looking for answers and how to make sense of all they were taught as Jehovah Witnesses.  Many are searching and some have come up with new understandings and desire to share there thoughts and new beliefs. Some get very upset when others share something that does not go along with how they personally understand the scriptures. As we all know, there are many religious groups that follow the Bible yet few agree on all doctrinal points. Most of us here who were Jehovah Witness’s understand what it is like to be forced to believe a doctrine that we cannot except.

It is not our goal for this web site to be a free for all when it comes to attacking others faith or doctrine. We do agree that the Bible is Gods written word and we uphold the principles found there in.  However, what is written in it is understood differently by many of us. Of course we ask for Holy Spirit to guide us in our understanding but the truth remains, we do not all understand it the same. Maybe we think we have the Holy Spirit and our brother does not. Is it possible that God/Jehovah/YHWH is more concerned with our heart condition than our particular doctrine? (1 Corinthians 13:1-12)

We all believe that Holy Spirit has preserved Gods word for us down to this day do we not? There are over 2000 translations of the Bible in the world. The Watchtower has translated the New World Translation into 106 different languages yet they have published their doctrinal publications in 436 different languages. That tells me they are way more focused on preaching their doctrine than they are sharing Gods written word. Numbers don’t lie. Could we be the same when we share our faith? I know I am guilty of adding my opinion in a forceful tone way more than I should after I share the scriptures. Should not the scriptures be able to speak for themselves?

My opinion is the Bible has been translated over the years with strong bias by the translators. I am not sure but I believe that most here at this web site do not believe the trinity or hell fire teaching. Yet most all popular Bibles promote hell fire and the trinity. The New World Translation (NWT) does not as we all know. I find myself still using the NWT much of the time for this reason. I have not been able to find a Bible in print that does not have a trinity bias and hell fire bias in it. I have not found a Bible yet were I do not see doctrinal bias in the translation including the NWT.  I must ask… If these doctrinal points were so important would not the God of the universe have preserved them along with the over 2000 translations of the Bible through out the world? If they were so important, lets say salvation issues,  then I would believe Jehovah Witness’s truly do have something that most all other religions do not have, a more accurate Bible supporting “true doctrine” that God “requires” us to know. Truth is, the New World Translation is  about 1900 world languages behind the other Bibles.  If the majority of the Bibles are correctly translated then most of us here are dead wrong about hell and the trinity. Please do not take me wrong… I am not saying that true doctrine is not something we should all try to learn. (John 8:32)  I am just pointing out the fact that many translations are bias in this area.

How can we use Bibles that support the trinity and hell fire that we ourselves do not believe and then turn around and tell someone else they are not following true doctrine? What I am trying to say is apparently the preservation of true doctrine is not as important as the message of love, mercy and not judging taught by Jesus Christ. These messages are very clear in EVERY translation of Gods word are they not? So what do we focus on? We all know what the Watchtower focus’s on and what they insist upon. Do we do the same?

It is my observation that many read the Bible and toss common sense out the window. I believe I did this for all the years I was a JW, over 40. For example, the Bible teaches God is love yet many stand firm on the hell fire teaching that God burns his own children who disobey him forever. Is it any wonder so many in the world do not believe the Bible? Who’s fault is it? Many of us taught that unless you are a JW you will die at armageddon and we set dates on top of it! Those dates ran out and that is why many of us are here on this web site. The Bible Students made some of the same mistakes and there are many Bible Students on this web site. Not so many x-Bible Students as there is xjw’s. All are welcome but we need to remember that most of us here are trying to escape doctrinal concepts being forced on us as the JW’s did. For the most part all Bible Students teach a way more loving and forgiving God than do the JW’s and I am all for that. Still there are a few who like the JW’s insist upon their doctrinal view as the correct one while quoting from Bibles that contradict their main belief’s such as the trinity and hell fire.

On such topics as love, mercy and not judging our fellow man, the Bible is truly clear in every translation. Why is it this way on these topics but not many doctrinal points that many hold to? Could this actually have been done for a reason? (Isaiah 55:11) Please consider Jesus words at Matthew 9:13, “But go and learn what this means: ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice.’ For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.” That is a strong statement and is very clear yet one of the most overlooked scriptures in the Bible. This is a strong desire that Christ expressed and he directed it to the Pharisees. Are we more like the Pharisees when we share the word of God or Christ? The Bible was written in such a way that most can play almost any tune on it. What tune are we playing? Is it judgmental or is it full of mercy? Are we like the Pharisees or are we like Christ? Christ condemned those who condemn and he forgave the sinners not the self righteous who had no need of repentance. (Luke 15:7 / Romans 5:7-8 / Ecclesiastes 7:20 / Romans 3:10)

Please consider 2 Peter 3:9, “The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.” Should we not be “patient” with others who are searching? No doubt this is a very strong desire our heavenly father has for all of his children that none of us should perish. Surly if correct doctrine was so important, God could have and would have preserved it, spelling it out for us in most translations. He did not however he did preserve the message of love and forgiveness in every translation and that rings through in all of Christ’s words does it not? Will not the grand creator of the universe get what he desires? Is not ALL THINGS possible with God? (Matthew 19:26 / 1 Corinthians 15:22 / 1 John 2:2) Let us never forget the words here at John 3:17, “For God sent forth his Son into the world, not for him to judge the world, but for the world to be saved through him. (NWT) If Christ Jesus did not come to judge this world then neither should we with our own personal doctrine.  This is only my opinion 😉

In closing please consider 1 Corinthians 13: 1-12, “If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.  Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth.  Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.  Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away.  For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away.  When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways. For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.”

With warm love and affection for all who visit this web site.

Your brother in Christ.

Greybeard

More on this subject in this article: I want Mercy Not Sacrifice 

 

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81 Comments on Our Doctrinal View, How important Is it?

  1. ruth says:

    Thank you greybeard for you advice.
    I know you are a man of peace and love. But I don’t have to agree with all you say. I agree with most though.

    If anyone who continually tries to promote another way except through our Lord as the only way I will take a stand.
    And l do this out of love of my fellow man.

    That is not judging our fellow man. That is defending truth.
    Jesus is the way the truth and the life. NO one goes to the father except through him. Its all about him in the gospels.

    Jesus called the Pharisees dead mans bones in white washed graves. They were promoting a different way. He had love and patience. But bare in mind he also had a righteous indignation.
    turning over tables in the temple.
    I truly believe the brothers standing for truth here are the same as their master. If that’s the case! To me they are brave men and woman.

    Judging and righteous indignation are two separate things for us to understand.
    We cannot water down the word of God. We cannot sit by and have our ears tickled.
    If we did not take our stand. Wouldn’t that be like accepting inter faith? Just closing a blind eye? That to me is not loving the other person.
    If we give one inch to be taken from our Saviour who the J/ws
    still do not see as so important. That will make way for unjust men to walk in and destroy faith in him alone.

    I do agree with you that its not a free for all in attacking others. besides that is not love. I’m sorry if l have done that.

    I also agree with you that us xwitnessess do not want to be forced to accept mans ideas.

    All I will ever defend is who our leader and head is. Where he should be in our lives. Answer is that he dwells in our hearts. 1John 4:4 He is now 1st place. His father says we are to listen to him. Not to any self made guru like Mr Russell.

    Jesus is the way the truth and the life. This is what we are trying to protect. The simple Gospel. That is my opinion also.
    Sister Ruth.

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    • greybeard says:

      Dear sister Ruth,

      I did not have you or anyone in particular in mind when I wrote this article. I feel for the most part everyone on this site has been very loving especially you. Of course you do not have to agree with me, I am only a man, a good for nothing slave. Not agreeing with others on every doctrinal point is what this article is about. Yes Jesus did make some bold statements but he has the right and counseled us to never call anyone a fool or such unkind words. (Matthew 5:22) Please don’t take me wrong, I am with you on the main clear points in scripture such as Jesus being the way, truth and the life. However I believe we need to be careful how we react and express our doctrinal differences. I hope all will share there beliefs but in a non judgmental, non condemning way. Right now we only “know in part” and I believe that much “knowledge” has passed away. (1 Corinthians 13:12) The message of love still remains and should be the cornerstone of our faith. Even though I do not believe the trinity I do not feel it is a salvation issue. Jesus has been given all authority on heaven and earth. I believe Jesus is divine and I also pray to Christ (John 14:14) as well as his Father. I feel God judges us by our heart condition, the love we show to others, not our works or accurate doctrine. He looks at us the way a loving parent views their own child. He reads the heart. Matthew 12:32 tells us that those who speak against Jesus can be forgiven but those who speak against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven in this life or the next. My opinion is one must have received the Holy Spirit in such a way that they really do know our father deeply the way the fallen angles did. They seen God and knew him well yet they spoke against him and his spirit. Knowing what was right, they turned on God and preached against him. As far as brother Russell goes, I love the man and do admire him for his efforts and life work. Sadly he got way ahead of himself and made many mistakes as many have done. I believe he is guilty of going beyond scripture and false prophesying however I do believe he like many others will be forgiven. He did what he thought was right. That is all anyone of us can do.

      Your brother in Christ,
      Greybeard

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  2. Londo says:

    Thanks, Greybeard. Very good food for thought. I especially like the part where you said, “the preservation of true doctrine is not as important as the message of love, mercy and not judging taught by Jesus Christ.” And also, in regard to God not wanting anyone to perish: “Will not the grand creator of the universe get what he desires?”

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  3. confused says:

    Hi my Brother,
    Good article as always by you. Most of us here, land here because of needing to find fellowship and sort out our many emotions of dissallusion from the WT, and this is not to be minimized. The facts are, some become even suicidal. I know of two who did while I was still in the org and looked at those who left as being “evil” or “taken over by satan”….I was WRONG to turn my back on someone hurting and in pain from losing their family. The org shatters your life in more than one way. As far as the Trinity or even Hellfire go, I cannot share my thoughts on those subjects (wish I could) because people get upset on both sides of the issue. I know the org misquoted sources in the Trinity broshure and their understanding of it is presented with a wrong viewpoint. I will leave it at that. I can no longer read their material, but again, I cannot really state why because last thing I want to do is offend anyone. I am still searching for understanding and growth spiritually. We were all spoon fed what to believe when in the org and now we are left trying to read, and come to an understanding of the Bible, for some it is easy, for others not so easy. WHAT IS ESSENTIAL FOR EVERLASTING LIFE??? that bugs me the most. I fear I may get it wrong somehow, and I find I have so much of the wt thinking of “having to have it all nailed down just so or else” concept. Im working on this crummy thinking. There is so much info out there on the web, I never read other material until I decided to search because I knew something was very wrong in the org.
    The problem with that is that there are lots of un-sound material out there and if your not familiar with names and so forth, it can lead you down a wrong path. Our minds were directed by a cult (again, my opinion) and I dont want to get involved to another cult…..It is my belief that there are some very good churches out there. I am trying to associate with new people who have been where I have been and at least have some background of how we feel and the broken promises we share together, that is what im doing here on the forum. I have a notebook that I am starting to take notes and form some clearer idea of who Christ Jesus is. I have academic knoweledge, but so what….I want to be close and have a relationship with him.
    Again brother, thank you for your article.

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    • greybeard says:

      Thank you sister confused,

      We should not be fearful of expressing our understanding on this web site as long as it does not turn others from Christ, Gods word and our Father in heaven. As long as we do not condemn and leave all judging to Christ. Everyone is entitled to their opinion as long as it is not forced on others. Speaking in a mater of fact way, I’m right and you are wrong, is not very loving. As far as the trinity goes, some explain it the way I believe, I just do not use the word trinity nor do I think it is scriptural. I believe the Father, Son and Holy Spirit work together to accomplish one purpose but in my opinion, that does not make them a trinity.

      As far as what is essential for everlasting life I believe a strong clue is found here at Matthew 25:31-46. Talking the talk is different than walking the walk. The Pharisees talked the talk, Jesus and his apostles/disciples walked the walk. Talking about love get us no where. Loving our brothers and fellow man is the largest part of doing Gods will and doing Gods will is what will get you into the Kingdom of the Heavens. Matthew 7:21

      I believe charitable works are very important and many who do not even claim to be Christian are more Christ like than many who claim to know Christ. What do we do for our fellow man? Many do not believe in God because they say he is not doing anything about all the suffering in the world. What are they doing themselves? Are they trying to relieve suffering or do they just complain about God? Some who do take an active course in helping other might be surprised by recognition from Christ himself as those were surprised in Matthew 25:31-46.

      Who would you love more? The man who serves his fellow man relieving pain and suffering or the man who preaches love and does nothing for his fellow man? Personally I know I could always do more… I am very involved in a recovery program that helps many addicted and homeless people. Many Christians are involved in this type of work. All feel it is doing Gods will. Matthew Chapter 25 is very clear on what Christ is looking for.

      With Christian love,
      Your brother in Christ,
      Greybeard

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  4. FutureMan says:

    Greybeard your post gives us all much food for thought and I know myself that I can be somewhat controversial with the way I put things at times and so much discernment and consideration is needed on my part when I do write posts or comments.

    I appreciate the time and thought and effort that went into your post here. Thank you.

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    • greybeard says:

      Thank you FutureMan,

      I am glad you are here. You are my brother 😉 I can tell you are seeking Gods will. We all need to be careful not to let men fool us again as we were fooled before… Psalms 146:3

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  5. man oh man says:

    Excellent!! Also I have read everything on this site and have not been offended at all. Seems to be a very respectful place and I thank you for it. One more thing is that I hope those that contribute won’t hold back on what they believe as long as they don’t force others to accept or get into name calling. I learn a little from everyone and say thanks for that to.

    To me doctrine should be straight from the Bible. Anything coming from men is simply just religion. Test all things to what Christ said including other scripture and surely we can’t go wrong?

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    • greybeard says:

      Thank you Man oh Man,

      I agree with you although depending on what translation you choose to use, you can reach different conclusions on doctrine.

      Your brother in Christ,
      Greybeard

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  6. andrew says:

    Every translation will be interpretive to some extent. It is impossible to avoid. When we read the bible in our language all of us also act as interpreters. As you mention some things are clear some not so clear. The bible isn’t a treatise on doctrine.

    I believe no one should be afraid to express their opinion in a loving and non-agressive manner. We shouldn’t be so afraid of offending someone that we will only discuss the most basic teachings for fear of appearing sectarian. It is only sectarian if we insist on our view or make acceptance of our view as a condition of fellowship.

    The Hebrews were admonished by Paul for not advancing past elementary doctrine, 6:1,2 “Therefore let us leave the elementary doctrine of Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, 2 and of instruction about washings,the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment.”

    So we do not want to be be satisfied with just the most basic knowledge of the bible. However, we always want to be humble as we gain knowledge otherwise we are going backwards.

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  7. JJ says:

    Excellent point Greybeard- what a great question. We have been so conditioned in the past to the “Us versus Them” mentality that to be able to agree to disagree is hard for some of us. In the Org we have all the answers. But now we know that our world-view and our opinion on Scripture is only as relevant as our love of Christ and our neighbor is. Sectarianism and doctrinal debates have become so tiring to me- I just want to dwell on our common love of YHWH and his Son our Savior. What a wonderful topic! We can never exhaust it or run out of things to learn and to say in praise of them.

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    • greybeard says:

      Thanks JJ,

      Agreed 100% brother! Wouldn’t it be nice if most of the focus could be on our “common love of YHWH and his Son our Savior” as you said. Debates can be tiring and overturns those listening if they are not done in the right spirit. 2 Timothy 2:14, 23-26

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  8. DanielB says:

    Doctrine : “1. a particular principle, position, or policy taught or advocated, as of a religion or government: the Monroe Doctrine. 2. a body or system of teachings relating to a particular subject: the doctrine of the Catholic Church.” – Webster’s American Dictionary , College Edition, 1997 .

    It is interesting to me that Jehovah’s Witnesses do not often use the word Doctrine to define their teachings . “Doctrine” is only referred to as being true doctrine or doctrines of men .

    While Paul was giving counsel on treating slaves (employees) and masters (employers) with due honor , in 1 Timothy chapter 6 , a Christian doctrinal way is being discussed . 1 Ti 6:2-5

    Here , verses 3 & 4 read , “If any man teaches other doctrine and does not assent to healthful words , those of our Lord Jesus Christ , nor to the teaching that accords with godly devotion , he is puffed up ,not understanding anything , but being mentally diseased over questionings and debates about words . …”

    So the point here that I am focusing on is that the “healthful words” are words that Jesus had established concerning how we ought to be treating one another . This is but one example of holding to only principles and doctrines that are only based upon the Christ .

    On fellowshipping with other Christians then , Paul also forewarned Timothy at 2 Ti 4:3-5 , “For there will be a period of time when they will not put up with the healthful teaching , but , in accord with their own desires , they will accumulate teachers for themselves to have their ears tickled ; and they will turn their ears away from the truth , whereas they will be turned aside to false stories . You , though , keep your senses in all things , suffer evil , do work of an evangelizer , fully accomplish your ministry .”

    Again , we see that Christian doctrine means sticking with Big Brother .

    It is through him that God’s spirit directs us . John 16:12-16

    Be blessed .

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  9. Bro. Ed says:

    Thank you brother Greybeard for your article. You are absolutely right when you summarize with the quote from 1 Corinthians 13: 1-12. I think most here will think carefully about the significance of this passage when commenting. If developing godly love is not our principal goal as Christians then we have missed the whole purpose of God’s calling. Romans 13:10 says, “Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.” If love is the fulfilling of God’s law, then the following truth is set in stone: “You shall love the Lord your God with all your hear and all your soul and with all your mind. This is the greatest and first commandment. And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as your self. On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.” Matthew 22:37-40

    Having said that, do you agree with what the Apostle Paul wrote in 2 Timothy 3:16-17? He wrote, “All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.” Where, when and how do we apply this?

    From the context of your article I almost feel that we are being asked to be lukewarm in our defense of the faith; that perhaps for the sensitivities of the viewing audience and those that post unsound doctrine and who are “double-minded”, we are to offer no “reproof or correction”. If this is the case, then I feel a large part of the scriptures has no footing here. I care for all those that are seeking the truth as I know you do, but love does not cover-over wrong doing; it forgives when we repent. If that is not the context of your article then please let me know, because at this very moment I’m struggling with the position the article puts me in.

    Let me be clear. There is much in the scriptures that we can speculate on. We often share our thoughts on these matters and for a great many this is a faith building process, especially when the spirit in each agrees (this is biblical). However proclaiming to others that there is a substitute for the bible and “enlightening” others to draw away from God’s word is a very different matter. It’s no different than someone coming here and posting comments that allude to the belief that “God is love and so he doesn’t really hate homosexuality”.

    I for my part have an open and inquiring mind and, for those things in the bible that are unclear (and there a great many), my ears are open. But when someone deviates from what is clear in scripture, then I’m afraid I’m going to defend the faith.

    JJ and GB, this site has been dedicated to help struggling Jehovah’s Witnesses. It dedicates a great deal in showing the errors and false pronouncements of the GB throughout its nearly 100 years of existence. Well, like bees to a honey pot you’ve attracted many loving Christians here who are now gathering daily on this site to build up the Body of Christ. I know this goes well beyond the scope of your intentions and yet it appears Christ is pushing things his way. Take what I’m about to say however which way you want, but I feel the reason you have had to write this particular article is because the little flock here, who is desperately trying to follow their Master voice, is being forced to defend the faith he is drawing them back to.

    Your brother in Christ

    Bro Ed

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    • JJ says:

      Bro Ed said: “I for my part have an open and inquiring mind and, for those things in the bible that are unclear (and there a great many), my ears are open. But when someone deviates from what is clear in scripture, then I’m afraid I’m going to defend the faith.”

      Well I for one agree with that Ed. I don’t think that’s what Greybeard meant but I cannot speak for him. At any rate, the Scriptures are clear on many core principles and tenets and “anything goes” humanism is not what I think Christ would espouse today.

      Thank you for balancing the discussion out on this point,
      JJ

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    • greybeard says:

      Dear brother Ed,

      Thank you for your honesty and loving reply. I would like you to please clarify some of the statements you just made.

      You said, “From the context of your article I almost feel that we are being asked to be lukewarm in our defense of the faith.”

      What did I say in my article that implied such a thought? Did I miss apply a scripture or principle? To encourage others to be “lukewarm” was never my intent, you can be assured of that. Please post my comment that implies this thought so I can edit it if need be. A few other very spiritual brothers in Christ reviewed this for me and did not take anything this way.

      Then you said, “Well, like bees to a honey pot you’ve attracted many loving Christians here who are now gathering daily on this site to build up the Body of Christ. I know this goes well beyond the scope of your intentions and yet it appears Christ is pushing things his way. Take what I’m about to say however which way you want, but I feel the reason you have had to write this particular article is because the little flock here, who is desperately trying to follow their Master voice, is being forced to defend the faith he is drawing them back to.”

      I will take that as a complement because that is what we hope for, for Christ “pushing things his way.” I tried my best to reflect Christ words in this article and I believe it was Christ who pushed me as you say. It appears to me by you saying, “I feel the reason you have had to write this particular article is because the little flock here, who is desperately trying to follow their Master voice, is being forced to defend the faith he is drawing them back to” that you are apart of the “little flock” and we are not. Am I taking this statement wrong? Why would I or any one here want to stop anyone from “defending the faith?”

      I have always enjoyed your posts and I was actually the first one to post an article you wrote because I felt it was needed. That article is here: http://www.jwstruggle.com/2011…..witnesses/

      I have always felt your comments were very loving and from your heart… this article was not written with you in mind. I have felt you always have seasoned your words with love. It is apparent now to me that you do not feel the same way about me. It appears you feel I expect a “luke warm” attitude and you also question our relationship with Christ. I hope I am taking you wrong my brother.

      The entire article was about LOVE and realizing that we all only know “in part” and nobody but Christ has the right to judge. Only Christ is our leader and teacher, not man. Any man who insists on others following his doctrine is out of line especially when he is quoting out of a fallible translation of the Bible. I personally believe that much knowledge has passed away but LOVE remains and it was my goal that we all focus on LOVE because that is a CLEAR doctrine in scripture.

      We have set this web site up with the intent to attract, share and learn from our questioning brothers in the struggle. We hope to attract JW’s away from sites that promote atheistic views. We point the way to Christ as the WAY TRUTH AND THE LIFE and not man. That is the purpose of this web site.

      Please clarify your statements to me because frankly brother, I believe you missed the point of my article and took it personally for some reason. Don’t worry, I still have a high amount of respect for you and feel that you are my brother in Christ. If you don’t feel the same way about me I will not be offended. I am nothing but a “good for nothing slave” and I have much to learn and I am open to correction.

      Although I do not view you as my leader or teacher, nor do I any man, I stand here to review your further council.

      With warmest affection and love for you dear brother Ed,
      Your brother in Christ,
      Greybeard

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      • Bro. Ed says:

        My dear brother GB, I’ll email my reply later today (Australian TIme) if that’s ok. In the meantime please let me say that I fully agree with the fine work you and the others are doing here. My comments to you are from one spiritual brother to another who, together with the others gathered here, share in the work of our Master, Jesus Christ.

        Peace be with you brother GB

        With all my Christian love

        Bro Ed

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  10. Disappointed says:

    Thankyou for your article bro.Greybeard. I agree with much of what you say. The scriptures have been around for a very long time now and in translation man has been able to twist and misinterpret to fit his own ideas. When that happens it causes men to be followed, their ideas to be put in place and followed as infallible truth. Why are there so many religions in Christendom? Why do they each believe they have the truth? Any religion that has a man or group of men leading it has to be false because there is one leader and one teacher.. Christ.(Matt 23:8,10)
    I believe that we are not meant to understand everything in the scriptures.The reason being that it reveals what is in our heart. Are we teachable, meek, humble, thirsting for righteousness? Jesus said these things would be hidden from the intellectual ones and would be revealed to babes. (Matt 11:25,26). When Jesus disciples asked him why he spoke in parables he answered them with these words.. ‘though seeing, they do not see;though hearing, they do not hear or understand..For this people’s heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn and I would heal them.’ (Matt 13:10,13,15). Of course we thirst for knowledge and thirst for truth and it is exciting to discover these truths and share them with others, but only so that we can build our faith and ‘to spur one another on to love and good deeds’. (Heb10:24). To puff ourselves up with knowledge and fiercely debate and try to force others to believe the same thing has the opposite effect.
    I truly believe that we have here a group of dear brothers and sisters who genuinely want to share the wonderful truths they find for upbuilding. Which is why there is such a lovely spirit here. We all feel it. Even when we disagree it is always done in a spirit of love and brotherly affection. We have all been browbeaten over the years by others who want to force us to accept their doctrines and follow leaders other than Christ.
    With heartfelt love for all my dear brothers and sisters, your sister Disappointed

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  11. confused says:

    “Amen sister Disappointed”

      (Quote)

  12. cry of anguish says:

    “What are they doing themselves? Are they trying to relieve suffering or do they just complain about God?”

    Dear Greybeard, may I please ask you a question.
    Do you believe that in this world there is such a thing as unbearable suffering?

      (Quote)

    • greybeard says:

      Dear cry of anguish,

      Of course I do. I do not claim to be an expert on the subject but I believe the human body can only take so much pain before it passes out or dies. Many who have experienced unbearable pain are actually unable to remember the accident. I personal had a friend who was in a car accident and spent much time in the hospital and he couldn’t remember any of it at all. All he knew was what his friends told him.

      I am sorry for your anguish and as confused said, we are here for you,
      Your brother in Christ,
      Greybeard

        (Quote)

  13. confused says:

    cry of anguish,
    I know you asked Greybeard that question but I am moved to respond….YES!!!!!!!!!!! I lost a beautiful baby girl to death, and unbearable suffering……I miss her every single day.
    Im not sure what exactly you are referring to but we are here for you…..

      (Quote)

  14. cry of anguish says:

    Dear confused,
    I graciously thank you for your answer. May I kindly and respectfully then follow up my question to yourself, as you have cruelly been such a tragic victim of “UNBEARABLE” suffering. (my heartfelt condolences)

    Please tell me,
    If there is such a thing as “UNBEARABLE” suffering? Why does God allow it?

      (Quote)

    • Bro. Ed says:

      Cry of Anguish, please take comfort in the words of our brother Paul:

      “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort, who comforts us in all our affliction, so that we may be able to comfort those who are in any affliction, with the comfort with which we ourselves are comforted by God. For as we share abundantly in Christ’s sufferings, so through Christ we share abundantly in comfort too. If we are afflicted, it is for your comfort and salvation; and if we are comforted, it is for your comfort, which you experience when you patiently endure the same sufferings that we suffer. Our hope for you is unshaken, for we know that as you share in our sufferings, you will also share in our comfort. For we do not want you to be ignorant, brothers, of the affliction we experienced in Asia. For we were so utterly burdened beyond our strength that we despaired of life itself. Indeed, we felt that we had received the sentence of death. But that was to make us rely not on ourselves but on God who raises the dead. He delivered us from such a deadly peril, and he will deliver us. On him we have set our hope that he will deliver us again. You also must help us by prayer, so that many will give thanks on our behalf for the blessing granted us through the prayers of many.” (2 Corinthians 1:3-11 ESV)

      Your brother in Christ

        (Quote)

  15. cry of anguish says:

    “Many who have experienced unbearable pain are actually unable to remember”

    Dear greybeard
    That’s because they have not experienced unbearable pain. Ask sister confused and see if she is “unable to remember” her, unbearable pain?

      (Quote)

    • greybeard says:

      This persons car was hit by a train and he was cast out several feet and nearly died. Maybe our description of unbearable pain is not the same. I have felt unbearable pain “in my opinion” many times. I thought I was going to die. I have been in the ER several times. Passing a kidney stone I nearly passed out the pain was so unbearable. I have mental pain due to most of my family being JW’s. I am still alive so I guess I have been able to bear all of this pain so far. I would think unbearable pain would end in death would it not? Because up until then we bear it. The human body can only take so much pain and that is a scientific proven fact. to God the dead are alive Luke 20:38 We have a grand hope Revelation 21:3-4

      May you have peace and God bless you,
      With warm affection,
      Your brother in Christ,
      Greybeard

        (Quote)

  16. ruth says:

    Hullo cry of anguish!
    So lovely to see you post here. It is so wonderful how the father is SO LOYAL TO HIS “LITTLE LOST SHEEP”

    Do you Remember what the woman at the well said to Jesus.
    “I perceive you are a prophet” She continues to say.
    Our fathers worshipped in this mountain and you people say it is
    Jerusalem that we should worship in.

    Now listen to this.
    Jesus said “Woman believe”Me.
    The hour is coming when neither in this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father. But an hour is coming and is NOW! The true worshippers will worship me in spirit and truth. God seeks to be with these worshippers. John 4:23

    What does this mean then. Well, we will not find him in building, Churches, nor Kingdom halls. So where will we find him?
    Good question. the answer is!
    He will find our us, our hearts and manifest his love on a one to one personal relationship. You and him! Me and him.
    John says, Jesus chose us! We did not chose him.
    So if you continue with a heart ready to listen when he speaks,
    He will come and bring peace. “You may be going through a dreadful time” But if you trust the written word of God you cannot lose.
    We have all had to learn this. Perhaps if you have already understood this than you know what I mean.
    Love you
    sister Ruth

      (Quote)

  17. ruth says:

    Brother DanielB
    You always inspire my heart. I love the way you think. May our father bless the work of your dear hands.
    You are so special to him.
    Sis Ruth

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  18. confused says:

    Cry of Anguish,
    In answer to your question, Yes, I remember every detail of my daughter and the pain I felt in the very moment the Doctor said to me “Im sorry, there is no longer a heartbeat”….I thought I would die in that very moment from pain that intense, I remember holding her for the last time and not wanting to give her to the Nurse…..I dont need to elaborate about it. I appreciate your question about “why does God allow it”…..I too felt like that in the days that followed in my greif. Many have asked that question. All of us here can certainly direct you to the Bible for an answer to that question.
    I will work on a response to your question and post it. Hang in there brother…..

      (Quote)

    • greybeard says:

      I am deeply sorry to hear about this. This has to be the worst of all pain felt on earth. I feel very confident you will see your daughter again as I will see my mother. I believe Jesus words at John 5:28

      You have my deepest sympathy

        (Quote)

  19. confused says:

    Cry of Anguish,
    I wanted to get back to you before I go to bed (this will be short but I can write more tomorrow)
    “ITS JUST NOT FAIR”, These words are uttered every day by millions and yes they are right but it was not always like this. At one time, there was no sorrow, pain or death but Genesis Ch. 3 tells us that Adam and Eve chose to disobey by believing a lie promoted by Satan and therefore sin and death entered the world…..and its heartbreaking and unfair, agreed. But God is not a God of un-caring about these things, he has a plan of salvation, and sent his precious son to die for us so we would have hope of everlasting life. People who are atheist like to point to the fact of human suffering and say “ahha, there is no God, if there were, he would not allow these things to happen”…….God is planning something wonderful for us that will be everlasting and I look forward to it. I was angry with him for a short time when my daughter died BUT I know he did not cause it to happen. Im sorry for a short generic answer back to you right now. Is there a particular aspect of this that confuses you? I mean like, how sin came upon mankind? or God’s plan of salvation for us? Remember satan wants us to die, he does not care how we die just as long as we dont look to God’s word for any solutions. Have you been out of the org long? I dont want you to feel uncomfortable, and you dont have to answer my questions if you choose not too.

    Greybeard, thank you, yes I look forward to oneday seeing my daughter again. I believe the promises in the Bible. I keep her memory in my heart as you no doubt do with your mom.

      (Quote)

  20. cry of anguish says:

    Dear confused
    Thank you for your very caring answer . I deeply appreciate it.

    Regarding suffering and Gods permission of it, this issue has tormented me forever. It is the sole reason why I left the JW’s, because there explanation of it does not make any sense. But what really disturbs me, is the fact that there are no websites by exJW’s who are concerned about this issue. For the issue of suffering I believe is the most important one. The other doctrines and dogmas pale into insignificance compared to the unjust and unbearable suffering of the vulnerable and the innocent. Please don’t think I have not prayed or studied the bible or read other bible related material or begged God for his holy spirit, because I have! Yet still, I have nothing! Nothing that gives true peace to my mind or to my heart. Nothing at all.
    Why should there be an answer when Jesus himself did’nt even feel the need to have to explain why his father allowed cruel unbearable suffering. Why should I expect to find one?

    With respect
    cry of anguish

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    • use 2 b a dub says:

      dear cry of anguish,
      i have never had to endure what you are going through. I do not know how you feel even though I wish I could somehow take some of your pain and suffering. I was and elder for many years and had the privilege to help comfort others which I always considered my most important spiritual duty.
      Many had lost loved ones, going through divorce, lost jobs and homes, and many other harsh realities of this life.
      I myself went thorough a near divorce and had very suicidal thoughts cross my mind because for months I could not find any comfort for my pain and anguish which at the time were unbearable. I prayed constantly but the pain persisted. My thoughts like yours were; Why doesn’t Jehovah intercede here and help out? I began to doubt his love and concern for his people and at time even his existence.
      The only measure of comfort that I got during this time was from my 7 and 5 yo children and my great family especially my mother. Just being around those that I loved and that loved me eased the pain but not entirely. Time was the only true healer.
      Please get yourself surrounded by loved ones and dear friends. There is no replacement for lost loved ones. I have lost a brother and both parents. I know that this is a cliche’ but it is remarkably true, ‘Only time will truly heal’ your unbearable pain.
      I am very saddened to hear your cry for help knowing that I personally cannot bring you the needed relief. Know that we all love you and will pray for your recovery from pain. I hope that you will soon be able to comfort others that are going through your horrific experience.
      your bro,
      use 2 b a dub

        (Quote)

  21. cry of anguish says:

    Thank you Ruth for your comment, but its just not that simple.

    Also, thank you greybeard for clarifying your point. Please, not to minimise your suffering brother, but I am not talking about pain that ends naturally in death. I am talking about being forced to bring about your own death due to “unbearable” emotional and mental pain. Pain that never ends. Where this God of love is no where to be found. So the pain will not end naturally unless you end it unnaturally.
    ps
    The link below will bring you to a 5 minute video that will painfully explain what I am trying to say to you.

    http://vodpod.com/watch/146117.....ocumentary

      (Quote)

  22. ruth says:

    cry of anguish.
    after watching that video made me cry with so much pain for you.
    Yes your right! Its not that simple.
    Please let us help you bare up under your dreadful pain.
    Please stay here with us. Our father hates what these people do.

    Love you
    Sister Ruth

      (Quote)

  23. Disappointed says:

    Dear cry of Anguish, my heart breaks for anyone who has to go through this kind of pain and I am sure our Heavenly Father who sees these things feels their pain too. He once did bring about and end to suffering because of the wickedness of man before the flood. It says he felt ‘hurt at his heart'(Gen 6:6). It is true that none of us can truly understand why God allows suffering to continue, we may feel that if we had the power we would do something about it. All I know is that God promises that he will avenge these ones and give them justice, (2 Thess 1:4-8) give them peace (Phil 4:6,7)and give them everlasting happiness (Matt 5:3-12). That these former things will never be brought to mind ever again, their minds wiped clean of their suffering (Isa 65:17-19). Your heavenly Father hears your cries and he feels your pain. He will give you the strength to endure and he will reach out and draw you to him and hold you close. One day the pain and suffering and mental anguish will cease and you will find true peace and happiness. Don’t give up with your prayers, pour your heart out to him and hold nothing back. He will sustain you through these dark days. (Ps 55:22).
    We all send our heartfelt love out to you dear brother.

      (Quote)

  24. Wakeupwitness says:

    The information is excellent. Although I’m always hit with the stonewall question: “who else on earth is preaching the good news of the kingdom?” by my witness family members.
    Does anyone know how I can get around this question?

      (Quote)

    • greybeard says:

      What they really are asking is, “who are Gods true messengers” right? Please consider, ISAIAH 44:25, 26, “I am . . . the One making the word of his servant come true, and the One that carries out completely the counsel of his own messengers.”

      Has Jehovah/YHWH “carried out completely the counsel” of Jehovah Witnesses? Has he made the “words of these servants come true”? If he did then most of us here would still be JW’s would we not?

      The “END” has not come yet and personally I believe it will not be the true “END” until Satan and those who follow is done away with. So then, the TRUE Kingdom message with all true knowledge in my opinion, will be mostly preached in the 1000 years of Christ rule directed by Christ himself. Christ did not direct the untruths of the JW’s. Right now the weeds are growing together with the wheat…

      Please consider this article: http://www.jwstruggle.com/2011.....essengers/

      Your brother in Christ,
      Greybeard

        (Quote)

      • man oh man says:

        Why not turn it around on them? If they are really the ones preaching god’s kingdom after so many years yet so few people know their message? Why not use the media if their message is the only true message? Instead they would rather indoctrinate people with their version of the kingdom. They do this one on one. The evidence shows they are looking for followers and are not interested in preaching the good news of the kingdom. The first time I heard of Jesus and his Kingdom it was not from a Jehovah’s Witness.

          (Quote)

  25. cry of anguish says:

    Disappointed
    You said,
    “Your heavenly Father hears your cries and he feels your pain. He will give you the strength to endure and he will reach out and draw you to him and hold you close. One day the pain and suffering and mental anguish will cease and you will find true peace and happiness. Don’t give up with your prayers, pour your heart out to him and hold nothing back. He will sustain you through these dark days.”

    I have lived to long and suffered to long and have seen to much pain and suffering to know that your words are but cold comfort. Those few of us who have been ravaged by wolves in this sadistic world and left for dead, know the harsh reality of the powerlessness of prayer. We know that when you are at your most vulnerable and most desperate beyond words, we have come to know the brutal truth that you get nothing from God. No, not even the scraps from his lavish royal banquet table. Yet, there are very few of us in this world who know of this despised and religiously unacceptable truth.For when we dare to speak it we are persecuted even more severely by those who have not suffered the unbearable in there lives and refuse to believe that such suffering even exists.
    For to believe that such suffering exists, yes, suffering that completely destroys a person….is to doubt the love of God. And doubting the love of God is forbidden!
    For if one doubts the love and the power of God because of one’s own personal experience of great pain and suffering where he honestly and truthfully feels that he has not been helped through his suffering, well, then this person is a liar and must have a wicked heart! For this is the only rational explanation for why such an individual has not received God’s help. And so the untested self-righteous “Christian” majority go there way with there untested faith feeling all smug and holy, never ever seriously contemplating whether it is possible that someone who has a good heart and has great faith in God could suffer so horrendously so terribly and not receive any help from God. It simply is not possible to them! But God knows differently. Yes God knows differently! So may they be forever on his conscience, the suffering of those whom he does not hear or help. And yet these ones in there despair and pain still seek him…as I am .

      (Quote)

  26. Robert says:

    Lamentations 3:19-33

    19 I remember my affliction and my wandering,
    the bitterness and the gall.
    20 I well remember them,
    and my soul is downcast within me.
    21 Yet this I call to mind
    and therefore I have hope:

    22 Because of the LORD’s great love we are not consumed,
    for his compassions never fail.
    23 They are new every morning;
    great is your faithfulness.
    24 I say to myself, “The LORD is my portion;
    therefore I will wait for him.”

    25 The LORD is good to those whose hope is in him,
    to the one who seeks him;
    26 it is good to wait quietly
    for the salvation of the LORD.
    27 It is good for a man to bear the yoke
    while he is young.

    28 Let him sit alone in silence,
    for the LORD has laid it on him.
    29 Let him bury his face in the dust—
    there may yet be hope.
    30 Let him offer his cheek to one who would strike him,
    and let him be filled with disgrace.

    31 For no one is cast off
    by the Lord forever.
    32 Though he brings grief, he will show compassion,
    so great is his unfailing love.
    33 For he does not willingly bring affliction
    or grief to anyone.

      (Quote)

  27. Disappointed says:

    Dear Cry of Anguish, I can’t begin to imagine the pain and suffering you have been through and somehow feel powerless to know what words to say that could bring you any comfort. I only know of the account of Job, a righteous man who suffered terribly at the hands of the Devil. His so called friends accused him of the very same things, that he must have done something wicked. He must have felt the same as you, in fact he even believed that God had brought it on him. Through it all he kept his faith in God and was blessed for it. Even if you feel God doesn’t care for you, he does. He cares very much for every single one of us. You say you are still seeking him… then you WILL find him. And even if you suffer now, one day these things will not even be a distant memory. They will be forgotten forever and you’ll find true peace and happiness. God promises this for all of us. Please don’t give up…

      (Quote)

  28. Eve says:

    Dear Greybeard,
    I can but agree with everything you write here. It is not the doctrines that matter the most, but this is over which religions had the most debate throughout the centuries. And with what result? Could they convince each other? Of course, not. For my part, doctrinal truth was not at all that drew me to Jehovah’s Witnesses when I began to study some 20 years ago but what they said on family life, love, forgiveness etc. You are perfectly right in that the most important messages of the Bible can be well understood in all translations. If we obey the rules Jesus set out for us we surely will get the most wonderful gift, be it in heaven or in an earthly paradise, it will be the best possible thing we can get. We can trust God in this respect, does it matter by what name we call that place now, or if we know exactly what it will be like? I think, not. What we must know, however, can be seen clearly from the Bible, that is, what to do, or how to behave to get there.
    Also, I think many debates over doctrines can be avoided if we simply don’t use any other phrases than those found in the Bible itself. For example, there are many debates over Jesus’ person, if he was God or not. Let’s use only the expressions in connection with him that the Bible itself uses. that is, the Son of God, The Son of Man, and those nice attributes found in the book of Isaiah, I think. If everyone uses only these phrases in connection with Jesus, what is there to fight over? Or, is there such a phrase in the Bible as ‘trinity’? No? Then let’s not use it. There are mentions of the father, the son, and the holy spirit, so let’s use these expressions but don’t go any further. Only say about these the things that the Bible itself says. No one can debate with those sayings.
    I began to read Ray Franz’s book about 10 days ago. I’m almost done with it. It may be surprising but I am not really shocked. I think it is because I have never really believed in the things whose falseness is now brought home to me, e,g. 1914, faithful and discreet slave, etc. I said to myself at that time, yeah, OK, I believe you (the WT), you must be right and theses things must be so, but I never used these expressions and notions when I talked about my faith to someone. I cannot say I didn’t believe they were so, but they were not important for me at all, they weren’t part of my personal belief in God and Jesus, they did not contribute anything to that, so now that I know for sure they are not so, my loss is not so big as may be of those who used to have a deeper understanding and faith in those notions.
    Some time before I began to read this book I told a friend of mine, if we were allowed to, it wouldn’t bother my conscience to celebrate birthdays, or Christmas, or do some things the way I did before becoming a witness. But of course there are those more important things that have become ‘inner’, that have become part of my conscience, which I wouldn’t do even if I were ordered by the Governing Body to do them. So I feel there is a distinct line between things I only accepted from the Society, and those that are really important because they are clear Biblical teachings.
    I hope I could express myself clearly enough, English is my second language, so if not, please,forgive me.
    I’m happy I found this website and one or two others where I can read very thoughtful opinions and comments that help me get a clearer picture. So thank you.
    Eve

      (Quote)

    • greybeard says:

      Thank you so much Eve for sharing! Your english is perfect, I would have never known it is not your first language. Welcome to this web site. We hope you stick around!

      Your brother in Christ,
      Greybeard

        (Quote)

      • Eve says:

        Hi Greybeard,
        Thank you for your nice comment on my English :)
        I really enjoy being here and reading others’ comments and experiences so I surely will stick around.
        By the way, I am from Hungary where naturally relatively few witnesses can read the book of Ray Franz in the original but some chapters have already been translated. I don’t know what will happen now, so far no one knows what I have found out, I will see what I will want to do about it. One thing is sure, I cannot go to service any more as if nothing has happened.
        OK, thanks again. Christian greetings.
        Eve

          (Quote)

  29. DanielB says:

    We will be treated as Job was , and there are things we will suffer that even Christ did not experience in his few short years of ministering on earth . But always know that we WILL NOT be tested beyond what we can bear . We are being tempered , and this is something to actually be thankful for . This will prove worthwhile .

    All we must do is stick with the teachings (doctrine) of Jesus .

    Love to you all . . .

      (Quote)

  30. cry of anguish says:

    Dear disappointed,
    Please I am not looking for pity, I am just looking for a plain and simple answer from anyone of you as to why God permits suffering. No one has yet attempted to give an explanation for it . Maybe no one has one. Well then just say you don’t and I will leave you all in peace.

    respectfully
    cry of anguish

      (Quote)

    • greybeard says:

      Dear cry of anguish,

      It sounds to me like many here have tried to share with you the Bibles explanation. You know the accounts about Job, Adam and Eve, Jesus and why Jesus gave his life. You know the provision God has made to take death away through faith in his son Christ Jesus. You know the reason the Bible says we die. The cause of suffering is mans choice to disobey God right from the start. Do you feel God should lie and not let man die? Should he protect man from his mistakes and not make him pay the consequences?

      Just what exactly do you believe now? Are you still looking or have you made up your mind? Where are you going with all of this? Have you concluded that God does not exist? Do you believe he does exist but he is a terrible God? Maybe you posted it, sorry if I missed it…

      We understand your questions on suffering and why it is so painful because most of us have been there. As long as you continue to focus on the problem and not the solution, you will only bring more pain to yourself. We chose to focus on the solution and that is why we all have peace when it comes to these types of questions.

      Many like yourself, have found peace in volunteering to help others who suffer. There are many programs where you can get involved. You could call the hospital or old folks homes and ask if they need volunteers. There is a program called Hospice in many areas that needs volunteers. There are homeless shelters, child day care centers and the list goes on and on. I know one lady who travels the world to feed the hungry. The sooner you focus on the solution the sooner you will stop living in the problem. The question is, where will you chose to live? What will be your focus?

      Jehovah blessed Job for his continued faith in him. What if Job would have cursed God and blamed him for all that had happened? He lost all his children, wife and everything he owned. Could it have been any worse? Job did not focus on the problem but looked for the solution and even though he did not understand as he thought God could have been causing this… he still understood that the solution had to remain with God. He was blessed for his faith in God.

      I try to get outside, go for a walk, focus on the good in this world and the beauty of it all. Walk on the beach, in the park or woods, get out of myself no matter what it takes and into life, into the solution. Don’t let the pain swallow you up. We all fall many times, loved ones die it is sad but true. We must rise up and cary on and continue to live and look for the only promised solution we have to these problems. If you can not bring yourself to believe in God at this time and his promises you are not alone. Find those who are doing something about these problems and join them. Get involved in making this world a better place. God has and will continue to take away our pain as he has promised. What can we do to take away others pain the way we expect God to take away ours? Try to focus on the solution and not the problem.

      I pray you find the path that leads you to peace,
      With warm love and sympathy,
      Your brother in Christ,
      Greybeard

        (Quote)

      • greybeard says:

        Another thing I forgot to mention cry of anguish…

        Sometimes the pain and mental depression can be so great that we cannot over come it on our own. There are many avenues of help out there starting with a doctor. I myself have had to seek such help a few times and there is nothing wrong with it…

          (Quote)

  31. cry of anguish says:

    DanielB you said “this is something to actually be thankful for”

    Well tell me this DanielB? If the boy (from the video link I posted) Rodney Yulin happened to be “YOUR SON”, and after “YOUR SON” was brutally and savagely raped many times by merciless animalistic men, which then lead to “YOUR SON” suffering with unspeakable physical and emotional pain which finally lead to “YOUR SON” in his heartbreaking despair to violently kill himself!
    Please tell me sir, “WOULD YOU” then be “thankful” to God for “YOUR SON’s” cruel sadistic suffering and painful death?

      (Quote)

    • greybeard says:

      I know this question was directed at Daniel but I have a reply too,

      I focus all of my hatred towards the murderer Satan and his demons that is misleading the entire world. Not on God himself who is the solution of these problems and has a plan for our eternal salvation. I chose to focus on the solution not the problem. For now, today, I can be apart of that solution by helping others and getting involved in making this world a better place to live.

      Warmest love,
      Your brother in Christ,
      Greybeard

        (Quote)

  32. DanielB says:

    No , of course not . Why are you trifling with me ? Jesus did not condone the blind and lawless treatment from his persecuters either , and you haven’t a clue over the things I endure and have endured . However , we who have a deep and abiding bond with the Son and the Father are thankful for the strengthening value through our trials and hardships . We do not blame God . Endurance leads to an approved condition .

      (Quote)

  33. ScatteredSheepsLamb says:

    Cry Of Anguish, you said: “I am just looking for a plain and simple answer from anyone of you as to why God permits suffering.No one has yet attempted to give an explanation for it . Maybe no one has one. Well then just say you don’t and I will leave you all in peace.”

    Please, don’t leave yet as I am working on an answer for you. This may take me a day or two, as I do not want to rush something this important. Hopefully, I can help. I just need time.

      (Quote)

    • DanielB says:

      And I have some discussion to follow through on with this subject too . First off , we have cried with anguish ourselves , and just imagine those brothers and sisters near the end of the first century who had been close to Jesus and had then lived through the dampening of faith , and apostesy that had infiltrated the congregation . This is why I will reason on the words that Jude wrote down .

      I intend to get back with this later today , Saturday .

      Love and Christian bondsmanship to all of you in Christ .

        (Quote)

  34. cry of anguish says:

    I am not “trifling” with you danielb. No but the truth is, that your smug self-righteous arrogance and cold glib words, are trifling with the brutal death of a young boy.

      (Quote)

    • DanielB says:

      Without any “smug self-righteous arrogance” as you say , I confer with the inspired words of Paul , “as we look intently at the Chief Agent and Perfector of our faith, Jesus. For the joy that was set before him he endured a torture stake, despising shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. Indeed, consider closely the one who has endured such contrary talk by sinners against their own interest, that you may not get tired and give out in your souls.” Heb. 12:2,3

      There is no trifling with the brutal death of a young boy on my part . Consider that you are mistaken . You have frustration , no doubt , and I am saddened over that .

      My point is that we have much to appreciate and look forward to . It is as James wrote , “Consider it all joy, my brothers, when you meet with various trials, knowing as you do that this tested quality of your faith works out endurance.” James 1: 2,3

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  35. cry of anguish says:

    ScatteredSheepsLamb, thank you for being so kind . I deeply appreciate it and I promise you that I shall wait.

    I thank you with all my heart.

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    • DanielB says:

      Dear Cry of Anguish , I have understood some reasoning on why our Creator has allowed pain and suffering for so long to exist among humankind , and would like to share the essence of this with you .

      I agree that the life experience of Job well illustrates a valid reason . It was first of all not the design of the Heavenly Father that Job should suffer as he did , to the point where even his wife said to give up ; “curse God and die” . We also see that Job was rewarded in the long run , for his endurance and his enduring friendship with , and dependence upon God . It has been well illustrated , in my opinion , how that the human race in general has found itself in a pattern of waiting on God to step in at His prescribed time to remedy such human problems . YHWH is indeed a concerned loving Father who has been criticised by those who constite themselves against Him beginning with Satan .

      The illustration is of a loving father who has been challenged by an angry rebel who claims that his son only abides with his father for selfish reasons , and that if the father stops keeping a hedge of protection around the son , then the son will prove that his love for the father was superficial at best , and this son will stray from his father , no longer being supportive of him .

      The father has a choice in answering the accusation against the father’s character . He can soon simply bonk his accuser on the head and do away with him . Or he can wait for the integrity to be proven by his son . And I can see how that this is the issue , just as it has been from the Garden of Eden foreward , namely , the question of who deserves divine sovereignty , or the right to rule . Our Creator knows that in time His sons will conquer in this issue , in full support of God’s direction / rule .

      This is what is encouraging for us , that we are given such opportunity to side with Father all the way through . It’s a blessing in this sense .

      There is more to be said on the subject for sure , however I hope that this will help with your question .

      Be at peace friend . . .

      danielb

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  36. serein says:

    jehovah sees many things and it must greeve him deeply this world isnt gods world at the moment its the devils and his influence is rampent,god dosnt permit suffering in the sence that he dosnt care its the devil who dosnt care and that is in the world his ways and to have any hatred is from him not god,iv lost all my brothers and both parents in death but i dont blame god everyone has pain and every one takes it in different levels some dont cope at all need help from some one else some are strong and get through, thats me,i feel for those who take there lifes becouse of so much pain and feel thats the only way out its so sad, life is very hard,but it carrys on we must endure to the end,to me that meand the end of our life not the end of the sistem of things,weather u beleive in god or not dosnt make a diference its how you live ur life, turn hate around, dont dwell on it,my mother lost 2 small children and had a realy bad life she then went on to suffer cancer and die it was so sad i was just a little girl but i endured and i keep loving not hating god, no thats no good,dont hate anyone dont blame anyone dont keep hurting turn it around or the devil wins ur heart and his deeds will be be working.i say i hate this world everyday and wish i didnt live in it some times i say why was i even born,but i dont let it get to me i say hate but what i mean is i hate the evil in it,i pray i keep strong and i hope.thats all i can do.also i think this site is a very good site for anyone who wishes help and freindship no matter what religion you came from or beleive its love thats it thats what drives us thats what jesus is looking for his looking in to our hearts and mind dont argue dont think ur rite some one else is wrong read the bible try to live by what you read and if your doing your best and then god sees it your ok hes not looking for the one whos perfect in scripture hes not looking for the puffed up with pride know it alls hes looking for the love the kindness the peasable ones live ur life the way you think god wants you to not the way some man says he wants you to,pray and search and god finds you but id you dont accept that help then its not gods fault.

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  37. ScatteredSheepsLamb says:

    Cry Of Anguish, you said, “Christian” majority… never ever seriously contemplating whether it is possible that someone who has a good heart and has great faith in God could suffer so horrendously so terribly and not receive any help from God.”

    Your Q is not why God allows suffering in general, but in a specific type of case? As in, why God would allow good-hearted, faithful servants of his to suffer unbearable pain to the point that they feel the need to kill themselves; and not give them any help whatsoever when they pray to Him?

    Is this your question? If so, I would like to answer for you. I do this with a spirit of deep caring and love.

    After much prayer and thought my answer is: God would not allow extreme suffering, AND refuse to help the suffer. Ever. Period. ”You take notice of trouble and suffering and are always ready to help.” (Psalms 10:12-14) At Psalm 22:1-24 we see that even Jesus felt abandoned by God for a time. But notice verse 24, “He does not neglect the poor or ignore their suffering: he does not turn away from them, but answers when they call for help.” There are many, many more verses like these in the Bible. Clearly, the Lord always helps the righteous one in the end. Therefore there has to be another explanation as to why one is suffering so, and not receiving any help. The reason this question is so hard and complicated is because none of us can read hearts. And none of us here wants to pass judgement. I certainly know I don’t. Only God sees the whole story. There could be another side to the suffering picture. Perhaps this individual started out as Job did, a faithful God-fearing, blameless man, but did not, during or after the trial, end up as the same faithful man. Job could have very easily cursed God in his heart and died. If this happened, would we have been able to see his unfaithfulness? To us it would just look like Job suffered terribly and God watched as he died. Jesus went through terrible physical and mental anguish, even sweated blood, literally. (Luke 22:44) He could have lost his faith, too. (That is what the devil was, and still is, working so hard for.) What I mean is, one could lose faith, and curse God in his heart during a trial, and no one else but God would know. If this were the case, to one of us, on the outside looking in, it may seem as though God were letting a faithful person suffer and not helping them in any way.

    This is just one possible explanation. We cannot read hearts, We cannot know all the circumstances. So I would never say this applies to you specifically or to anyone else. This is something only God can know.

    So, to summarize, we know that, sometimes, since we are imperfect, and at times, neglect to ask God for wisdom, we could end up doing something dumb and get ourselves in trouble and suffering is the result. However, that does not mean that God is up in heaven saying “You brought this on yourself, so I won’t help” No, he is ready and willing to help, if we go him in prayer. (Psalm 107:17-19) Again, God never refuses to help an honest-hearted, humble one. (PS 9:9,10) Or, as in the case of Job and Jesus, it could be a trial of great suffering brought on by the Devil. This kind of suffering has nothing to do with a mistake on our part. God will make sure this one makes it through if he or she has faith and does not curse Him. (1 Corinthians 10:13) He will even cause some good to come from it all. He will take the bad, and make good come from it. He didn’t cause the bad, but he has the power to turn it to something good.

    So, no good person will be abandoned totally by God, even though at times it looks to be so. (Psalm 37:25,28 and Psalm 31:22) You said: “And yet these ones in their despair and pain still seek him…as I am.” Dear one, I know that if you seek him with a humble heart, (As we ALL must; even Jesus had to be humble.) he will absolutely help you. This is a promise. (1 Peter 5:6,7, says “Humble yourselves…that he may exalt you in due time; while you throw all your anxiety upon him, because he cares for you.”)

    All of us here are trying to help you. Each one of use is bringing a piece of the puzzle to the table. ( My piece is no doubt a very small one.) But it remains for you to put the pieces together. We cannot do this for you. Perhaps it may help to copy all the answers you received on this, and put them all together on a page, and read through them again prayerfully.
    Please take the time to read the scrip references as well. Our Heavenly Father’s word is more important than any thing I could say.

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  38. Anonymous says:

    Nice comment there.

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  39. InTheWilderness says:

    My son has an incurable genetic condition which causes the weakening of his muscles, there isn’t a part of his body unaffected, his lungs especially. The only reason he is breathing beside me now is due to a ventilator inflating his lungs with air. As he has no swallow the only means we have of nourishing him is through a nasal feeding tube which bypasses his stomach through into his lower intestines – they deemed him too weak to survive an operation to fit a peg to his stomach. All of his organs are fighting against tremendous pressure in a loosing battle just to keep him alive. Everyday the clock is ticking down, the hourglass now nearly empty perhaps.

    Yet his life is not without meaning or happiness, infact he is probably the happiest little boy we know and he has enriched our lives with more meaning than I could ever have imagined four years ago. But regardless of how happy he is we as parents know his prognosis. It goes without saying therefore that there are inumerable moments throughout each day when it all seems all too unbearable. There are times still when I question how God could allow my boy to suffer so much, what did he do to deserve this; he did not eat from your tree, he did not rebel against you OH YHWH!

    Those are times when we really must try our hardest to see ourselves as we truly are. Specs of dust in this great wonderous universe. Can we imagine the scale of even our own solar system? Do we step outside our homes and look up and see all the stars and the works of His hands, how far that light has traveled just to meet the iris in our eyes, how much further in the other direction, billions of years of travel. An unfathamable number for us to comprehend. Yet all with beginning and eventually an end. But the one who made them with no beginning and no end. Who sees from the beginning the finale. Who knows all things and is love personified to endure all things.

    This one has explained to us what the finale will be, a restoration of ALL things. Throughout all time and space these little specs of dust are the ones His Word was especially fond of. That’s you, that’s me, that’s my boy. And in the epoch of time to come when we arrive where we were meant to be in the care of the Father we will look back and will feel for the people we once were, as those adrift in an ocean without realising that He was directing our sail all along. He is not really that far from each and every one of us. Only then will we fully understand why the suffering we now endure was permitted. Until then we will continue to question despite the many answers we receive.

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    • Disappointed says:

      Dear InTheWilderness, I really feel for you, my heart goes out to you. So many of us are having or have had unbearable suffering to cope with but through it all God gives us the strength to endure, gives us the peace we long for when times seem unbearable and most of all a wonderful hope where these terrible things will not be even brought to mind.
      Sisterly love Disappointed

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  40. John S says:

    This comment is in regards to the subject posted about the need to just show love,acceptance,tolerance,kindness,toward others ON THIS SITE,as we share our faith/understanding/interpretation of the word of God.Having been Witnesses.Been told what to believe.How it’s interpreted,applied.How all prophesies are to be understood,black and or on white,no variances allowed and no private interpretation accepted or can even be DISCUSSED.And if you disobey,man…if you even disagree….we’re gonna PUNISH you with the worst we can do.This is our heritage,our reward for years of obedience and sacrifice,hard work,etc. 7.5 million still in cahains being whipped by this pressgang gaggle of overseers,C.O.s and a Governing Body,that probably goes over these questions behind closed doors all the time,without fear of punishment.We had enough,I checked out,never to return,others are doing the same.So,it’s no surprise,if the moderators here,and some ex-J.W.s also stiffen their attitude when someone says things like;
    Why should we not try to decipher important,more complicated books of the Bible,like Daniel,Isaiah,Ezekiel,and Revelation(purported to be the ultra-important message about what the Kingdom is,when it’s near how we’ll know,how we can gain entrance into it,what Christians will do when they get there,and its purpose,what will happen to those who have died,what will happen to the demons who are destroying us,the very identity of the Creator and his son,and on and on,etc.)
    Many of these answers are seemingly simple,others are quite difficult,and shrouded in symbolism,apparently unknowable until the events foretold transpire.That is where faithcomes in.In other cases,we can combine spiritual,scriptures,and sound reasoning and arrive at WORKABLE,LOGICAL conclusions and understandings that grow a stronger faith.How much endurance the Lord was able to expend because he knew about the PURPOSE behind his sacrifice,why even seemingly to remember some of his prehuman existence?Now for the sake of time,I must cut to the chase,borrowing a computer for a few minutes here.
    Brother Willie is being stumbled here because he feels nobody cares about the importance of prophecies,and the afore-mentioned items,and one of her teachers,Russell was disbelieved and judged as a quack by several here,myself included,and this hurt.I did more than anyone here to disparage Russell’s teachings,not the man.I fully believe he was a good man,anointed and dedicated to discovering the meanings of the mysteries in God’s word.I took aim at his teachings and disparaged his dogma without shame,or tact for him or the dyed in the wool Bible Students and those studying with them,to the point of stumbling several from commenting on this site.At the time I came on last year,it appeared as a free-for- all brawl at times and was quite discouraging.Now there is debate about whether we should even discuss prophecies in the Bible,the sign of the last days,or anything of a controversial nature such as future events.I have made the statement repeatedly,”the simple gospel”,to the point of harping.I’m sorry now I started bringing this up,as now we’re stagnated into another extreme,that is,we don’t need the whole Bible,just certain books,say parts of the gospel teachings,but not all,or that all we need is love(John Lennon).
    Many points were brought out by Amos,and others(by the way,did Amos get driven away?),that we could discuss these things on a private part of the site,so as not to irritate others who are not wanting to know the answers,or are sensitive to these discussions,or have a differing view.What is my view?
    “All scripture is inspired of God,and beneficial for teaching,for reproving,for setting things straight.”2Tim.3:16

    “If you remain in my word,you will know the truth,and the truth will set you free.” John 8:31,2

    “Happy is he who reads aloud and those who hear the words of this prophecy,and who observe the things written in it,for the appointed time is near.”Rev.1:3

    “Everyone drinking from this water will get thirsty again.Whoever drinks from the water that I will give him will become in him a fountain of water bubbling up to impart everlasting life.”,,,the hour is coming and it is now, when the true worshipers will worship the Father with spirit and truth,for indeed the Father is looking for suchlike ones to worship him.”John4:13,14…23

    The Bible truth and the Holy Spirit,and the need to speak about the important truths from the Lord and the Apostles and others,cannot be stifled,or even stopped by persecution as it bubbles forth from the human hearts that it moves.Should we wish to carry on speaking about the OTHER things in the word that seem irrelevant or arduous to some here,I will suggest the forums in another section.If that does not suit the moderators,then another blog on the internet can be pursued where these can exercise their God-given right,nay responsibility to express,as they cannot obey men to stop speaking about the Bible topics handed down by the Lord and his 12 teachers for his disciples benefit.Should we try to discourage or intimidate on a back ‘page’,it would be tactfully mentioned that the conversation is voluntary and they needn’t concern themselves about it,there’s plenty of room elsewhere on the site for each one’s thoughts…all are considered equally.

    Might this be a reasonable wat to resolve a stumbling situation?
    Spoken in the spirit of Romans 12:18…be peaceable with all men

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    • Amos says:

      Hi Brother John,
      No I haven’t been driven away, I just didn’t want to inflame the situation any further, plus I have my own problems to deal with, both health wise & also materially. At times I have to break through a mental barrier before I can get to the point of being able to function cohearently, & at times, also just my day to day routines.

      I think that your post sums it up pretty well. You are quite right about the stagnation, & this is why I was encouraging the use of the forum.

      Amos

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    • Disappointed says:

      Dear bro John..I understand what you’re saying. Personally I love the books of prophecy, especially Daniel and Revelation. After all the Revelations were given to the apostle John by none other than our Lord Jesus!! Why should we not love them? I think the problem arises when someone decides what these prophecies mean and then expect everyone else to accept their understandings. We won’t know the full understanding of them until God chooses to reveal them to us in full. As for bro Russell, I think he was a well meaning man, God fearing with a thirst for truth. I don’t believe he was the Faithful and Discreet Slave anymore than I believe it applies to a man or group of men today. I admire him for wanting to understand the prophecies but not for his obsession for numbers, dates and numerology. I think the forum is a perfect place for discussing things like this. Just because we don’t all agree with the same things doesn’t mean we don’t love each other as brothers and sisters. This is what is so wonderful about our freedom! I read the things that the apostle Paul had to say to the brothers and sisters back then and it makes me smile because human nature never changes and we are still the same now as they were then! But the ones that appeal to me most of all are ones like Timothy and Lydia, ones that showed genuine love for their brothers and sisters. :)

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    • greybeard says:

      The only thing the moderators humbly request is that all share their viewpoints in the spirit of love as Christ would have us do. For those of us who come to this site often, the forum would be better if what we say will take a thread/blog off topic. Many search these articles/blogs for answers and then they find the topic changed by the comments. True new ones come here all the time and change the subject. Thats ok and we need to answer their questions… However, for those of us who come here often, the forum should work good. If you can’t use the forum for some reason we understand. This is not a hard fast rule, only a loving request we hope will keep article blogs on topic. This is not to control what others talk about, it is to keep the information organized as best we can. All of your comments are deeply appreciated and add a wealth of information for all to see. We thank all of you very much for contributing.

      Your brother in Christ,
      Greybeard

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  41. ruth says:

    InTheWilderness.
    Dear child of our tender father.
    John 14:1
    Let not your heart be troubled, you believe in God. believe also in me.

    Your example to us and that of your dear boy helps us in our lives and trials. Thank you for sharing.

    You love is so unique. Filled with the to-day and tomorrow.
    Because your hopes and dreams are fuelled by the the light that shines in your heart We here are so pleased your little boy is happy. “He makes me happy”
    When you look into those happy eyes of you boy you see the reflection of all goodness to keep you going.

    “Just a little while longer”
    Your sister Ruth

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  42. Bro. Ed says:

    Dearest brothers and sisters, I, like our brother Amos and others here, have daily struggles that prevent us from being able to take the required time to put pen to paper, or better phrased, put fingers to keyboard :) But I daily visit this congregation of fellow Christians in order to recharge my spiritual batteries. No matter what we say, no matter the intensity that we feel when we read what others have to say, all ways, and I mean always, my faith grows stronger by being amongst you.

    We are entering uncharted waters with the world seemingly breaking down minute by minute. War footings are yet again being taken by the powers that be. Iran is rattling it’s saber, the super powers are rattling theirs. The global economy teeters on the edge of a dark abyss. Families in the US, Greece and so many other lands are facing hardships. Are we about to see the changes that lead mankind toward the final end game we are expecting? Only time will tell. But in the short time we have left, let us all build each other up so that we can be ready to help those that may be caught off guard. Many of us living in the Western world have had years of living in relative comfort and security. Our experience of dire hardship is limited and we, even though we have a glimpse of what lies ahead, may not fully realize just what it means to face the final challenge we as Christians will face. Gird your loins and put on your spiritual armor; the time for being readied for the battle ahead has arrived (IMO)

    With my deepest love and brotherly affection

    Your brother in Christ

    Bro. Ed

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  43. Anonymous says:

    Brothers/Sisters
    I just read the last few comments from above, I just wanted to say, I sooooo appreciate everyones thoughts and opinions on many subjects and prophecies included…I just have to give it a break for a couple days at times because its been so overwhelming. I have good days and bad, I never thought I could leave the org (glad I did) BUT its been more pain than I imagined because of the LET-DOWN of those I trusted to guide me spiritually. I now am closer to Jehovah but its still hard.
    I respect everyone here and I am LEARNING FROM YOU ALL, “praise God for that”…….
    In The Wilderness……I read your comment and my heart goes out to you brother, to see a child seriously ill or suffering is more than what I can handle sometimes, but I know God WILL MAKE ALL THINGS BETTER…..I feel bad because there have been times I have blamed him for the losses I have had in my own life, I can only hope he forgives me for being angry with him. I will pray that Jehovah gives you strength and peace….

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  44. Alden says:

    The priorities as far as doctrine is concerned are clearly shown in 1Cor. 13:13 – “Now, however, there remain faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.” Tenants of faith are second place.

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  45. John S says:

    Yes,brother Ed,my sentiments exactly.Go on in that power,brother.

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  46. use 2 b a dub says:

    Hi greybeard,
    I too am a greybeard at 65. I can remember preparing the ‘5 minute sermon’ at the door. It was all about winning a doctrinal argument.
    Is it me or has anyone else notice that Rutherford seemed to always try to stir things up? What ever main stream Christians taught or believed, he taught the opposite. It was as if he was creating his own religion of controversy in order to attract attention. He was the one that came up with the name Jehovah’s Witnesses. The name “Christians” was not good enough?
    Love,
    use 2 b a dub

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  47. Biblestudent says:

    I think that we can have unity if we follow Christ. Doctrine will always change but Jehovah and his son Christ Jesus is the only thing that will stay the same.

    Jehovah and Jesus is the only thing that is constant in this old world.

    God bless,
    Bible student

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  48. garnet brown says:

    HELLO, DEAR BROTHER, WHILE I CERTAINLY AGREE WITH YOU AS IT RELATES TO DOCTRINAL BIAS THAT IS FOUND IN ALL TRANSLATIONS AS. I CERTAINLY I DON’T AGREE WITH YOUR POSITION, THAT THE CONDITION HEART TAKES PRECEDENCE OVER ONE’S DOCTRINAL VIEWPOINT. THERE IS A UNIVERSAL CONSENSUS AMONG CHRISTIAN THAT TRUE RELIGION IS CLEARLY REVEALED IN TOTAL LOVE FOR JEHOVAH AND OUR RELATIONSHIP WITH OUR BRETHREN. HOWEVER OUR VIEW OF THE PERSON AND NATURE OF JEHOVAH WOULD ADVERSELY AFFECT OUR RELATIONSHIP WITH HIM AND CONSEQUENTLY OUR HEART CONDITION.FOUNDATIONAL IN LOVING JEHOVAH IS A RIGHT VIEW OF HIM.

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  49. reader says:

    There is a very simple anti-Trinitarian argument;
    Check your personal copy of the Divine Specification;
    Directions at;
    Genesis 1 v 27

    B

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