Recently we discussed the meaning of Jesus’ words “this generation” in Matthew 24:34 here. Are there more texts in the Greek Scriptures that would seem to indicate that the end, conclusion of the system of things, coming of Jesus etc. would happen in the first century?

I have made a partial list of a few of the texts that I have found that would convey a sense of imminence for those first century Christians.

Romans 13:11,12 – ” Besides this, knowing the time, it is already the hour for you to wake up from sleep, for now our salvation is nearer than when we first believed. 12 The night is nearly over, and the daylight is near”

Romans 16:20 – “The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet. The grace of our Lord Jesus be with you.”

1 Corinthians 4:5 – “Therefore don’t judge anything prematurely, before the Lord comes…”

1 Corinthians 5:5 – “turn that one over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the Day of the Lord.”

1 Corinthians 7:29 – “And I say this, brothers: the time is limited…” For whom was the time limited? For us here in the 21st century? or the Christians back then?

1 Corinthians 7:31 – “…For this world in its current form is passing away.”

1 Corinthians 10:11 – “Now these things happened to them as examples, and they were written as a warning to us, on whom the ends of the ages have come.” The end of the ages arrived when the first century Christians were alive.

Philippians 1:9,10 – “And I pray this: that your love will keep on growing in knowledge and every kind of discernment, 10 so that you can determine what really matters and can be pure and blameless in the day of Christ”   Paul obviously thought and wrote under inspiration that many of the Philippians would be alive when “the day of Christ” arrived.

Philippians 4:5 – “Let your graciousness be known to everyone. The Lord is near.”

1 Thess. 2:19,20 – ” For who is our hope, or joy, or crown of boasting in the presence of our Lord Jesus at His coming? Is it not you?”   Paul expected this congregation of Thessalonians to still exist and be active when Jesus came.

1 Thess. 4:15 – “For we say this to you by a revelation from the Lord: We who are still alive at the Lord’s coming will certainly have no advantage over those who have fallen asleep.”   Paul believed his readers and possibly himself would be alive for the Lord’s coming.

1 Timothy 6:13,14 – “… I charge you 14 to keep the commandment without spot or blame until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ”  Paul thought Timothy would see the “appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ”.

Hebrews 1:2 – ” In these last days, He has spoken to us by [His] Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things and through whom He made the universe.”

Hebrews 9:26 – “…But now He has appeared one time, at the end of the ages, for the removal of sin by the sacrifice of Himself”

James 5:8 – “You also must be patient. Strengthen your hearts, because the Lord’s coming is near.”

James 5:9 – ” Brothers, do not complain about one another, so that you will not be judged. Look, the judge stands at the door!”

1 Peter 1:5-8 – “who are being protected by God’s power through faith for a salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time. 6 You rejoice in this, though now for a short time you have had to be distressed by various trials 7 so that the genuineness of your faith-more valuable than gold, which perishes though refined by fire-may result in praise, glory, and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ

1 Peter 1:13 – “Therefore, get your minds ready for action, being self-disciplined, and set your hope completely on the grace to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ. ”  Peter under inspiration said his original readers in the 1rst century would be brought grace at the “revelation of Jesus Christ”.

1 Peter 1:20 – “He was destined before the foundation of the world, but was revealed at the end of the times for you”

1 Peter 2:12 – “Conduct yourselves honorably among the Gentiles, so that in a case where they speak against you as those who do evil, they may, by observing your good works, glorify God in a day of visitation.”  The non-believers would glorify God on the day of his visitation because of these 1rst century Christians.

1 Peter 4:7 – “Now the end of all things is near; therefore, be clear-headed and disciplined for prayer”

1 Peter 4:17 – “For the time has come for judgment to begin with God’s household; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who disobey the gospel of God?”  That time for that judgement had come in the 1rst century.

1 Peter 5:1 – ” Therefore, as a fellow elder and witness to the sufferings of the Messiah, and also a participant in the glory about to be revealed…”

1 John 2:18 – ” Children, it is the last hour. And as you have heard, “Antichrist is coming,” even now many antichrists have come. We know from this that it is the last hour. ”  When John wrote his letter (possibly before 70 A.D.) it was the last hour.

 

Many have dated the writing of the book of Revelation to a few years before the close of the first century. However there is a number of reasons to suspect it was written before the destruction of the temple in 70 A.D. Presenting evidence for the earlier dating of Revelation is beyond the scope of this article but you can do a search online and find several articles that deal with this topic. A short article can be found here.

Notice how many times Revelation mentions the imminent coming of Jesus.

Revelation 1:1 – “The revelation of Jesus Christ that God gave Him to show His slaves what must quickly take place…”

Revelation 1:3 – “Blessed is the one who reads and blessed are those who hear the words of this prophecy and keep what is written in it, because the time is near!”

Revelation 2:16 – “Therefore repent! Otherwise, I will come to you quickly and fight against them with the sword of My mouth.”

Revelation 3:11 – “I am coming quickly. Hold on to what you have, so that no one takes your crown.”

Revelation 22:6,7 – “Then he said to me, “These words are faithful and true. And the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, has sent His angel to show His servants what must quickly take place.” 7 “Look, I am coming quickly! Blessed is the one who keeps the prophetic words of this book.”

Revelation 22:12 – ” “Look! I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me to repay each person according to what he has done.”

Revelation 22:20 – “He who testifies about these things says, “Yes, I am coming quickly.” Amen! Come, Lord Jesus!”

Revelation 22:10 – ” He also said to me, “Don’t seal the prophetic words of this book, because the time is near.” Compare this with Daniel 12:4 – “”But you, Daniel, keep these words secret and seal the book until the time of the end. Many will roam about, and knowledge will increase.”

Also let’s compare Daniel 8:26 – ” The vision of the evenings and the mornings that has been told is true. Now you must seal up the vision because it refers to many days [in the future].”  So Daniel is told to seal up the book because these things were to take place a few hundred years in the future. But John is told to not seal the book because the time was near. Logic would dictate that the fulfillment must have happened sooner than the fulfillment of Daniel’s prophecies.

 

If you were a Christian living in the first century before 70 A.D., what would you have thought? What would have been the only conclusion you could have come to about Jesus’ coming? That his coming was imminent and would likely happen in your lifetime. We must remember that these weren’t simply idle conjectures that the bible writers were throwing around. They were under inspiration. Therefore, the most logical conclusion which I have been forced to come to is that Jesus did come in the first century, in 70 A.D. to be precise.

 

 

 

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34 Comments on Which Generation? part 2

  1. greybeard says:

    Thank you Andrew for all of your research and great article! I tend to agree with you for the most part. When Jesus spoke, he was speaking to that generation. However I do believe there are many prophecies not yet fulfilled. I believe the nation of Israel will be converted to Christianity when Christ acts on their behalf. The fact that Israel had been restored as a nation and so many want to destroy her makes me think we are close to seeing Christ step in. Then he will turn a heart of flesh into a heart of stone.

    Please notice what is say’s here in Ezekiel 39: 21-29, “21″And I will set My glory among the nations; and all the nations will see My judgment which I have executed and My hand which I have laid on them. 22″And the house of Israel will know that I am the LORD their God from that day onward. 23″The nations will know that the house of Israel went into exile for their iniquity because they acted treacherously against Me, and I hid My face from them; so I gave them into the hand of their adversaries, and all of them fell by the sword. (We, all the nations, got to see some of this on TV and in the movies didn’t we? The holocaust?) 24″According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions I dealt with them, and I hid My face from them.” ‘”25 Therefore thus says the Lord GOD, “Now I will restore the fortunes of Jacob and have mercy on the whole house of Israel; (Please NOTICE “whole house of Israel” not just Christians) and I will be jealous for My holy name. 26 “They will forget their disgrace and all their treachery which they perpetrated against Me, when they live securely on their own land with no one to make them afraid. 27 “When I bring them back from the peoples and gather them from the lands of their enemies, then I shall be sanctified through them in the sight of the many nations. 28 “Then they will know that I am the LORD their God because I made them go into exile among the nations, and then gathered them again to their own land; and I will leave none of them there any longer. 29″I will not hide My face from them any longer, for I will have poured out My Spirit on the house of Israel,” declares the Lord GOD.”

    So do you think this has happened yet? If so when? I think this is happening right before our eyes. God has been gathering them back in their land and they are a nation again. Do you believe all of Revelation has been fulfilled? I don’t see how that could be possible. So the book, even though it was not sealed, must still apply in part to our day as well as the first century does it not?

    I feel really strong about Gods promise to Israel as many Christians do. If it is a “spiritual” Israel that all the nations take notice of then who are they? Where are they? God said he will save them, not because of anything they do, but for his own name sake. Wether or not Israel is loyal to God, they are still his chosen people.

    Romans 11:32, “For God has shut them all up together in disobedience, that he might show all of them mercy.”

    Has this showing of “mercy” on them all taken place yet? No it hasn’t. God will show mercy on his chosen ones and the world will stand in awe. I think the time for that is close. I really do.

    That is my opinion, that is my 2 cents for whatever it’s worth 😉

    Your brother in Christ,
    Greybeard

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  2. LonelySheep says:

    Andrew, I was recently discussing your views with a brother and one thing he said to keep in mind is that Math 24 does not stand in isolation to the preceding chapter or the proceeding chapter, simply put chapter 23 or chapter 25. Since the original Bible was not written with chapter breaks, Jesus’ answer to the Apostles does not end with the last verse of Chapter 24.

    When his answer is considered in this broader context, we see aspects of the prophecy that has not been fulfilled. Take for example in ‘Chapter 25’ of the separating of ALL the nations into Sheep and Goats. Did this take place on a thin strip piece of land 2000 years ago? Me thinks not, so we must not be to hasty in accepting the eschatological view you put forth, which by no means is new, but has been espoused by many for hundreds if not thousands of years.

    I have seen this argument,(especially the one regarding the time Revelation was written) before in another forum. I’ll try to dig out some responses of those that argued in favour of your view and those that did not, just so that we can have a bit of balance.

    Any case, thank you for your views, it certainly got me thinking.

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    • andrew says:

      Lonelysheep,

      I think if anything taking the context especially of chap. 23 of Matt. strengthens the case that chap. 24 has to do with the wicked generation of Israelites that lived in Jesus’ time.

      Jesus condemns the leadership of that generation. He tells them in vs. 32 “Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers’ sins!”

      Especially note vs. 35,36 “So all the righteous blood shed on the earth will be charged to you, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar. 36 I assure you: All these things will come on this generation!”

      vs. 37,38 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem! The city who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her. How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, yet you were not willing! 38 See, your house is left to you desolate.” (compare Matt. 24:15)

      This wholesale condemnation of Jerusalem, especially the leadership, is the context in which Jesus gives the signs of his coming. I think it points quite clearly he is talking about his coming to render judgement on the Jewish nation and especially the city of Jerusalem.

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  3. JWB says:

    Andrew, once again, by letting the scriptures speak for themselves, we see a clear expectation in the minds of first century Christians that “the end” was not far off. I was reminded of a very interesting passage of scripture in the last chapter of the gospel of John:

    “Upon turning about Peter saw the disciple whom Jesus used to love following, the one who at the evening meal had also leaned back upon his breast and said: ‘Lord, who is the one betraying you?’ Accordingly, when he caught sight of him, Peter said to Jesus: ‘Lord, what will this [man do]?’ Jesus said to him: ‘IF IT IS MY WILL FOR HIM TO REMAIN UNTIL I COME, of what concern is that to you? You continue following me.’ IN CONSEQUENCE, THIS SAYING WENT OUT AMONG THE BROTHERS, THAT THAT DISCIPLE WOULD NOT DIE. However, Jesus did not say to him that he would not die, but: ‘If it is my will for him to remain until I come, of what concern is that to you?'” [John 21:20-23; NWT]

    The “disciple whom Jesus used to love” means the apostle John, who wrote the gospel bearing his name (verse 24 says “This is the disciple that bears witness about these things and that wrote these things, and we know that the witness he gives is true.”)

    My understanding of the above quoted verses is that the disciples, even if they misunderstood Jesus’ words, really believed he would come before their generation passed away. Thus it makes sense to me that they thought John would not die before Jesus came.

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    • Amos says:

      Hi Brothers,
      I do agree with the views as being discussed that the generation Jesus was refering to was that of those living during the first century, that ended in AD 70 with the destruction of Jerusalem.

      Without repeating what has already been said, the scriptures (I believe) are very clear about this, when you take both OT & NT scriptures that point to the “end of the Jewish system.” These leave little doubt that the “end of the age” occurred in AD 70, & have little or no reference to the parousia, as ALL these things were to happen PRIOR to our Lord’s return. By this I mean His return to execute judgements & usher in the millennial reign.

      I definitely believe that He has been invisibly present, at least since the outpouring of the HS at Pentecost, but I believe that this was for the benefit of the chosen ones & not for the world at large.

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  4. Siam says:

    Excellent article Andrew. I came to the exact same conclusion. It is interesting that some commentators give the date of the writing of revelation as 68 ce. If that is the case things would sure add up.

    I think that if you take Jesus prophecy, the content and context of Paul’s writings, and the history of the 1st century Jewish System, that a strong case can be made that all has been fufilled.

    I Am much like Andrew still trying to figure it out.

    Take care brothers and sisters.
    Siam

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  5. LonelySheep says:

    Dates are a mute point. People will argue about the historicity of events until the cows come home.

    Was their a 1Century fulfilment as suggested in this post? Of course.

    Were Jesus words to have a greater fulfilment, at a future time? Me thinks so.

    If Jesus did not have any prophetic significance for us today or for a later generation, then what is the point of this forum and being a Christian if all the Bible was wrapped up in a defunct system that was brought to an end 2000 years ago?

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  6. andrew says:

    I think Luke 21:20-22 is quite revealing “”When you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that its desolation has come near. 21 Then those in Judea must flee to the mountains! Those inside the city must leave it, and those who are in the country must not enter it, 22 because these are days of vengeance to fulfill all the things that are written.”

    LonelySheep, being a Christian is just as important as ever. If we are indeed living in the symbolic 1000 yr. reign of Christ right now, a judgment still waits for everyone. (Rev. 20:11-15)

    Hebrews 9:27 – ” And just as it is appointed for people to die once-and after this, judgment”

    We must be careful about appointing 2nd or 3rd fulfillments on prophecies. When this is done usually it is speculation.

    This view of prophecy is a complete paradigm shift in thinking for most Christians.

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    • greybeard says:

      Hi Andrew,

      Paradigm shift? With all due respect, I honestly think to take a full Preterist view is a total shift from reality. Look at the world we live in. The stage is set for the battle of armageddon. Do you really think that has already happened? Unless those days are cut short, no flesh would survive? The battle of armageddon will not be won using human rulers or a human army like the Romans. All the nations will wage war against Jesus Christ the lamb of God. The stage has been set right before our eyes. Every eye can now witness Gods power in a flash of a lightning bolt with the technology we have today. How will all the nations bow before Christ unless he returns again with great power and authority in his glory? Has that happened already? When have all the nations taken notice of Christ? If you honestly think that has happened all ready where every knee has bowed I would think again. Do you think Daniel 2:44 has been fulfilled? All the nations have NOT been destroyed have they? Also, Ezekiel 29: 21-29 cannot be ignored. Has that been fulfilled already too? I think not. It is being fulfilled right before our eyes. Right now! God will either save the entire house of Israel for ALL the nations to see or he is a lier! He is NOT a lier. Romans 11:29, “For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.” (ESV) “God never changes his mind when he gives gifts or when he calls someone.” (Gods Word Translation) This will be a “complete paradigm shift” for any who believe God has changed his mind regarding his chosen people Israel. The new covenant did not replace the old one. Psalms 94:14, “For the LORD will not reject his people; he will never forsake his inheritance.” Did God forsake his people? Never Romans 11:1-5.

      This is only my opinion, please forgive me for being so bold with it. Yes I could be wrong but I honestly don’t think so… If I am, it won’t be the first time.

      In Christian love,
      Greybeard

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      • andrew says:

        Hi GB,

        Just a couple comments on your questions. The book of Hebrews pretty much makes it clear that the Old Covenant was replaced by the new. For instance, Hebrews 8:13 “By saying, a new [ covenant ], He has declared that the first is old. And what is old and aging is about to disappear.”

        The old covenant completely disappeared with the destruction of the temple. The “gifts and calling are irrevocable” in the sense that any Jew repented and accepted Jesus and was faithful (Paul gives the example of himself in Romans 11:1) would continue to form part of Israel. He would not be a branch that was broken off.

        Think of the original destruction of Jerusalem in 587 BCE. Only a refined remnant of Israelites returned. The vast majority of Israelites that were taken away to Babylon and Assyria eventually with time were absorbed into other cultures and ceased to be identified as Israelites. The Jews in Palestine in the first century were descendants of that remnant.

        Another cleansing took place in the first century. Most Jews were rejected as being part of “Israel” only a faithful remnant, such as Paul, continued to be considered part of “Israel”. This time however Gentiles who became Christians were grafted onto the nation of “Israel”.

        As for Daniel 2:44, when the scripture says “In the days of those kings” to which kings is it referring? And when the text says ” It will crush all these kingdoms and bring them to an end” to which kingdoms it is referring?

        It would be referring to the kingdoms represented in the image. Probably Babylon, Persia, Greece, and Rome. God’s kingdom would begin when Rome was the ruling power.

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        • greybeard says:

          Thank you Andrew,

          I spoke to soon regarding the old covenant according to Hebrews 8:32 showing my ignorance on this subject. Thank you for pointing that out to me. I will review that more and get back to you. Edit: I know the old law code was abolished so I miss spoke. I was viewing the covenant as Gods promises not law code. My mistake, I need to review this more… I know the Bible Students strongly believe God will protect Israel like he promised. Rutherford changed all of that with his foolishness. Maybe the “covenant” has changed but Gods promises are still irrevocable are they not? I still believe Ezekiel 29: 21-29 is yet to be fulfilled. Maybe it has already… I just don’t see it.

          Do you believe the battle of armageddon is over? You didn’t address that… To me it sounds like you do as you seamed to indicate we are in the 1000 year millenium…

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  7. andrew says:

    Greybeard, there is much that I don’t understand and probably never will in this lifetime. My point in writing this article was to have everyone perhaps consider a point of view they never have before.

    I’m still learning and don’t have a nice, neat answer for every question. However the futurist way of viewing prophecy has serious weaknesses. I have been aware of them for sometime but only recently been won over to viewing most of these prophecies as having been fulfilled. That is not to say there aren’t weaknesses in the preterist viewpoint of prophecy. But the balance of the evidence IMO weighs in favor of the preterist viewpoint.

    We do know that Jesus would rule in midst of his enemies and after the last enemy, death, was defeated he would hand over the kingdom to his Father. Therefore during the 1000 yr. reign (possibly symbolic) enemies of Christ would abound. After the 1000 yrs. have ended Satan would be given total freedom to act and would influence “gog and magog” to attack God’s people. This is very similar to Ezekiel 39, so perhaps this prophecy is yet to be fulfilled.

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    • greybeard says:

      I understand Andrew,

      Please do not think I am trying to attack you, I am not. I appreciate this article very much as I do all of your articles. I also agree with some of your views on Preterism. As it is written, Iron sharpens Iron.

      It seams to me you feel Christ second coming has already taken place. True the Romans returned and destroyed Jerusalem as Christ foretold, but was that his second coming? I don’t see how it could be in light of all the things that would take place in the book of Revelation. Armageddon is a war Christ wages against all the nations. Has that already happened in your opinion?

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  8. andrew says:

    I do believe it was the coming matthew 24 talked about as well as most other prophecies.

    I’d like to delay answering your other questions for right now. I plan on writing another article about a well known prophecy in Revelation soon.

    You don’t have to worry about questioning anything I write GB. I won’t get offended. After all questioning is how we all ended up here.

    Your bro,

    Andrew

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  9. Amos says:

    Just a quick reply, as I’m short on time.

    I believe that the “coming” of Matt 24 possibly occurred at the fall of Jerusalem in 70AD. However, I don’t believe that the “parousia” of Revelation has yet happened.

    The writing of Revelation can too easily be fixed well after the fall in 70AD. I’ve looked at this closely in recent years.

    I’ll pose two thoughts that I’ve had; perhaps the coming in 70AD was invisible, but the coming of Rev. is visible.

    By doing a genuine neutrally minded study of the Grk/Eng words in the Rev. verses concirned, it certainly gives the idea/thought of a visible return.

    If we also do a similar study of the future habitation for the saints, this I believe, leaves no alternative for them but the earth. There may be a period immediately following the return, when they will be “taken up” for their safety, when the actual destruction of satan’s system is accomplished. How better for the saints to judge & help mankind in their recovery, than to be present in the flesh.

    Another thought, just because the “CALL” is from heaven, & the “KINGDOM” is heavenly, that the saints need to go to heaven to fulfill their commission as “joint heirs with Christ.” They can fulfill this right here on earth.

    Remember, Rev.21:1-4; “Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea. 2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them, 4 and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away.”

    The old order is done away with & the new order comes down from heaven. God tabernacles with mankind, wipes away ALL their sorrows, etc.

    I don’t see the saints being any other place that the earth, but then I may be wrong.

    Ion

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    • andrew says:

      Amos, there is also a number of strong proofs that Revelation was written before 70 A.D.

      A book by kenneth gentry called “Before Jerusalem fell” goes into extensive detail about this topic. It is available online for free.

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      • Amos says:

        andrew:
        Amos, there is also a number of strong proofs that Revelation was written before 70 A.D.

        A book by kenneth gentry called “Before Jerusalem fell” goes into extensive detail about this topic. It is available online for free.

        Hi Andrew, I believe quite to the contrary. The whole Preterist viewpoint was constructed by the Jesuits to counter the Protestant Reformation. In so doing, they have blurred the truth concerning many the dateing of some 1st century events. There is absolutely no credible evidence for a pre-70AD writing of Revelation.
        However having said this, I do believe that there is some substantial truth’s contained within Preterism, but great care needs to be taken when studying it as we can be deceived by anything that is VERY CLOSE TO THE TRUTH, BUT IS ACTUALLY UNTRUTH.
        BTW, I have had a decent look at Preterism, so I’m not just talking about something that I’ve been told about. Anyone can make one thing look either right or wrong, it all depends on how they present the material they use, & how much they twist the actual known truths concerning that subject.

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  10. Jayme says:

    Instead of all the prophecies having been completly and finally fullfilled in the first century possibly that is when they BEGAN to see fullfillment. I think its resonable to believe many have more than one fullfillment. With the appearance of Jesus as the Messiah an old era was brought to an end and the next era began, it being the last. Prophecies in both the old and new testaments find their fullfillments during this time. I am thinking that they will continue to find differing degrees of fullfillment until, as Paul says:

    1 Cor. 15: 24 Next, the end, when he hands over the kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power. 25 For he must rule as king until [God] has put all enemies under his feet. 26 As the last enemy, death is to be brought to nothing….. 28 But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone.

    So I think we have a begining and an end to these “last days”. Most likly the begining being the baptism and anointing of Jesus and the end being the time when Jesus hands all things back to his Father. The length of time in between is not certain, just as the length of the creative “days” is not certain, but rather it is a period of time marked out by God to accomplish specific purposes with regrard to the Divine will.

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  11. Anon says:

    I’ve been a lurker on this site for a long while now. I haven’t really coomneted much but am sorta lost on this post.

    Why are you JJ or Andrew whoever wrote this talking about pretrism? I’ve never even heard of it. After a wt like we had this Sunday, the gb are after anyone they call apostate. That’s an issue we have to deal with. It just doesn’t seem like other posts by you guys. But i guess its important too some of you.

    Not trying to be rude but thats how i feel.

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  12. Willie says:

    IN A NUTSHELL: There are two salvations: heavenly (“stars of heaven”) and earthly (“sand which is upon the sea shore”) as promised to Abraham (Gen. 22:16-18). The Gospel Age is the exclusive time for the spiritual high calling to live and reign with Christ. (Phil. 3:13,14.)
    Jesus has reigned over his Church, developing the spirit-begotten Christians, ever since Pentecost. He has kindly hidden from their eyes that the calling would last nearly 2000 years for that would have been too discouraging and detrimental to their success. They all believed he would return soon; it was designed to be that way for their encouragement.
    Jesus died to ransom Adam–a perfect man for a perfect man. “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive” (I Cor. 15:22). “Who gave himself a ransom for all…” (I Tim. 2:6). “All” means “all” and everyone has their chance at salvation–sooner or later. No religion or organization has a corner on the resurrection.
    Eternal life on any plane is predicated upon obedience (I Sam. 15:22). Since our righteousness is as filthy rags, faith and perfect heart intention is our saving grace (Eph.2:8,9) during the permission of evil–while Satan is still ruling as the prince of the power of the air (Eph. 2:2).
    Jesus and his Bride (the 144,000 representing the twelve tribes of Israel (Rev.7:4-8), but largely Gentile) will reign over the world when the New Covenant is established after Jacob’s Trouble (Jer. 30:7; Joel 3:16; Eze.38:8-23).
    The Great Multitude is a mercy class–those who consecrated to the heavenly calling, giving up their right to life on the restored earth in exchange for a chance to be a member of the Bride of Christ and were begotten by the Holy Spirit. (I Cor. 9:24.) Many are called, but few are chosen (paraphrase of Matt.20:16). In the end they were of the foolish virgin class who failed to qualify. Thus the Great Multitude will be servants around the throne in heaven (Rev. 7:13-17)–probably messengers between heaven and earth during the reign of Christ and the Church during the Millennial Age.
    The Holy Remnant of Israel will be spared (Isa. 37:32) for the Kingdom on earth will be Israelitish (Gen. 28:14) The Ancient Worthies (Heb. 11:39,40) will become princes in all the earth (Psa. 45:15; Luke 13:28-30), representing the invisible ruling body, Christ and his Bride. Jerusalem will become the capital of the world (Isa. 40:2; Jer. 3:17).
    The world will be resurrected in an orderly manner–the last to die will be the first to be raised (Matt. 20:16)–and those obedient to the laws of the New Covenant under the new mediator (Heb. 8:6; 9:15; 12:24), Christ, will live forever on earth. The disobedient will go into Second Death (Rev.21:8).
    After Satan’s final test on mankind (Rev. 20:7-10) Jesus will turn over the restored Earth, with perfect inhabitants, to Jehovah (I Cor. 15:24-28) and Jehovah’s kingdom will come and His will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Earth will again be a Paradise.

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  13. Bro Ed says:

    A very important discussion is going on here and it’s spiritually uplifting to see everyone truly examining the scriptures on this site. Wonderful :)

    Anyhow I’d like to bring 2 Peter chapter 3 (in it’s entirety) to the table. It’s a crucial passage of scripture that Peter wrote under inspiration and, to a large extent, it was written to support the inspired teachings of the Apostle Paul (2 Peter 3:15-16). Please read the second letter to the Thessalonians chapter 2 in it’s entirety and you’ll see that both Apostles are warning against the false belief that the Day of the Lord had already occurred or wouldn’t occur.

    What both Peter and Paul were saying, is that the Day of the Lord was for a future time and that it would coincide with the return of Christ and would culminate with “the day of judgement and of destruction of the ungodly men” (2 Peter 3:7). In relation to living in the ‘last days’ Peter clearly states in verse 8 “..that one day is with Jehovah as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day” (2 Peter 3:8). And so the ‘last days’ could easily span two thousand years or more and from a Christian perspective we must live (and even die) as if the end was imminent.

    What Peter and Paul also concur with is that the reason for the apparent slowness on God’s behalf regarding His Day of Judgement, has nothing to do with God being slow but rather it has everything to do with God’s patients, “because he does not desire any to be destroyed but desires all to attain to repentance.” (2 Peter 3:9)

    I hold to the view that whilst Matthew chapter 24 had a minor fulfilment in 70 AD (I’m certain many Jewish Christians that fled Jerusalem based on this prophetic warning were very grateful), the greater fulfilment was yet to come, especially in regards to Christ’s return and the 1000 year reign of peace. The added reality is that Christianity continued in Jerusalem well beyond the destruction and continued to spread and unfortunately turn apostate over time – something that would not have occurred if Christ had returned at that point in history.

    One last thing. In Revelation chapter 17 we are given a glimpse of the Harlot and the Beast and how the Beast is defeated by the Lamb. What is relevant in this discussion is the verses pertaining to the eight kings. Verse 10-11, “And there are seven kings: five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet arrived, but when he does arrive he must remain a short while. 11 And the wild beast that was but is not, it is also itself an eighth [king], but springs from the seven, and it goes off into destruction.”

    Now if you read this scripture carefully you can ascertain that five had passed prior to the writing of Revelation, one existed at the time of John’s writing (Roman Empire), one was to come and last a short while (that’s king number 7) and the eighth was to emerge out of the seventh king at some point in the future (in other words, king number 7 is to be revived). While this passage of scripture raises a whole other topic for discussion, what is clear in relation to this discussion is that the final king (empire/kingdom) appears well beyond the Roman empire (sixth king of eight) of Paul’s, Peter’s and even John’s era. If this last king is the one spoken of in the book of Daniel 9:28-27, 11:21-45, 12:1-13, Matthew 24:15-31 and 2 Thessalonians 2:3-10 then the generation referred to in Matthew 24:34 is the one that will be around during the reign of this eighth king.

    Peace be with you all

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    • andrew says:

      Thank you for your appreciation of the article Bro Ed, and welcome to the site.

      Each will have his own opinion on these matters, and I’ll give you my thoughts on your comments.

      The letters to the Thessalonians were Paul’s first inspired letters. It was relatively early in the “last days” of the Jewish system of things. They were probably written around 50AD.

      Paul’s first letter is filled with expectation for the Lord’s coming. It stirred the bros. of Thess. so much that they thought the day had already arrived (2 Thessalonians 2:2) Some had even stopped working and were living of the generosity of others thinking that the Day was there. Paul lets them know that while close it’s coming wasn’t just a matter of days.

      He says in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 that 2 things must happen first. The apostasy had to arrive and the man of sin had to be revealed.

      Evidently the apostasy arrived soon after. Paul speaks several times about Judaizers and other that had apostasized. Also John in his first letter mentions the apostasy many times. (1 John 2:18,19 4:3)
      There are different opinions of who the man of sin was but he must have been talked about by Paul to the cong. in person since in 2 Thessalonians 2:5 he said he had talked about those things including the man of sin to them when he was with them, perhaps indicating he was a public figure known by them.

      So, I don’t believe Paul was in anyway delaying the coming of Jesus for a couple thousand yrs. as evidenced by all the letters he wrote after his letter to the thessalonians that emphasized the imminent coming of Jesus.

      Peter mentioned many times as well the nearness and imminency of the Lord’s coming. Does 2 Peter 3:8 cancel out all those imminency texts? IMO no. What Peter is saying here is that the promise of God’s that falls due in a day will be performed on time, and the promise that falls due a thousand yrs. from now will equally be performed right on time. A long time or a short time, a day or millenium has no effect on God carrying out His promise.

      IMO Peter in no way is saying that if God promises something for today He may not carry it out for a thousand years. That is slackness. That could even be defined as deception and lying. That would be using 2 weights and measures in His dealings with mankind. If we agreed to pay a specific amount of money to someone within 1 year but we didn’t do it for 30 years did we act honorably?

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  14. Bro. Ed says:

    I’m not doubting that when God plans to do something it always happens on time. That’s not my point nor do I believe that it was Peter’s or Paul’s. What Peter is saying is that from a humanistic point of view, what appears to be slow in man’s eyes is really God allowing his plan of grace and judgement to unfold in his own time frame and not ours, and that it will happen as planned, irrespective of the length of time.

    One of the major doctrinal issues I had with the organisation of JWs was around the return of Christ and his invisible presence in 1914. As a child of the 1960’s I was effectively being taught another type of Preterism. I was taught that Christ words and the book of Daniel, Revelation, etc were by and large fulfilled. But when I read the scriptures for myself without any attempt to time-bound prophecy, my eyes where opened to the reality that Christ return was still to come. I personally get great comfort out of knowing that I can be counted as being part of God’s grace and have a real chance to be part of the gathering of his Chosen ones, just as Jesus foretold in Matthew 24:31, “And he will send forth his angels with a great trumpet sound, and they will gather his chosen ones together from the four winds, from one extremity of the heavens to their other extremity.” NWT

    Paul restates this in 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, “For this is what we tell YOU by Jehovah’s word, that we the living who survive to the presence of the Lord shall in no way precede those who have fallen asleep [in death]; 16 because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first. 17 Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we shall always be with [the] Lord.” NWT

    Note verse 16 is almost word for word Jesus’. Then it is restated in 1 Corinthians 15:22-23, “For just as in Adam all are dying, so also in the Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each one in his own rank: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who belong to the Christ during his presence.” And again in 1 Corinthians 15:51-53, “Look! I tell YOU a sacred secret: We shall not all fall asleep [in death], but we shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, during the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised up incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this which is corruptible must put on incorruption, and this which is mortal must put on immortality.”

    With the utmost sincerity, I don’t want to come across like I’m admonishing you, I’m just asking you to look closely at the significance of these scriptures in relations to Christ’s return and the end of this system of things.

    Andrew, from your perspective, what prophetic relevance does the scriptures now hold in relation to God’s Day of Judgement and the conclusion of the system of things? If all was fulfilled in 70 AD where do we come in to God’s plan? Given that we are now nearly 2000 years post AD 70, when did Christ’s 1000 year reign begin and end? Where is the destruction of ungodly man that Peter says would happen in 2 Peter 3:7, “But by the same word the heavens and the earth that are now are stored up for fire and are being reserved to the day of judgement and of destruction of the ungodly men.” Has the resurrection taken place? Has the angels gathered his chosen ones and have we been left behind?

    PS: Any thoughts on my last points relating to Revelation 17:10-11?

    Your brother in Christ.

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    • andrew says:

      Hello Bro. ed

      Commenting on all the points you raised would take too much time. As far as Revelation 17:10-11 the prophecy says kings but you seem to believe that means kingdoms or empires. I believe it means exactly what it says “kings”.
      1. Julius Cesar 2. Augustus 3.Tiberius 4.Caligula 5.Claudius that had fallen. The one is which is 6. Nero

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  15. Bro. Ed says:

    Thanks for the feedback Andrew. As a fellow Christian it is important that we have the spiritual freedom to examine the scriptures and allow God’s word to resonate in our hearts and minds. You know doubt draw specific meaning from the scriptures pertaining to this subject and it is good that we can share our thoughts without prejudice. I for myself have clarity in what I hold true and ,as I previously mentioned, I draw comfort from this. Nonetheless whilst we may not agree on this subject, I know that we are brothers in Christ and this means our Christian love must always take precedence in settling disagreements. I’m sure that we will both learn from each other, and in time the Holy Spirit will guide us to the correct understanding.

    Your brother in Chirst

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  16. humbleman says:

    Hi Bro Ed.
    2 peter 3 says

    5For, according to their wish, this fact escapes their notice, that there were heavens from of old and an earth standing compactly out of water and in the midst of water by the word of God; 6and by those [means] the world of that time suffered destruction when it was deluged with water. 7But by the same word the heavens and the earth that are now are stored up for fire and are being reserved to the day of judgment and of destruction of the ungodly men.

    8However, let this one fact not be escaping YOUR notice, beloved ones, that one day is with Jehovah as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day

    what Judgement day do you think peter is talking of here.? would you agree its the same judgement day that Jesus spoke about and the apostle Paul

    Matthew 10
    15Truly I say to YOU, It will be more endurable for the land of Sod´om and Go·mor´rah on Judgment Day than for that city.

    Matthew 12
    36I tell YOU that every unprofitable saying that men speak, they will render an account concerning it on Judgment Day

    acts 17
    31Because he has set a day in which he purposes to judge the inhabited earth in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed, and he has furnished a guarantee to all men in that he has resurrected him from the dead.”

    I believe judgement day is the 1000 years. but it starts with Armageddon as Jesus conquers his enemies.the kings of the earth and all the political governments. but the majority of mankind are given a opportunity during the 1000 years judgement day. if you read Zechariah 14 you will see all the events spoken of all happen during ONE DAY your bro in Christ humbleman

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  17. Reader says:

    This generation.
    Take this chapter by itself.
    Luke 21 v 7 note there are TWO questions, though both centre on the Temple.
    OR: v 7; when will verse 6 happen and what will be the sign of verse 6. Note that v 20 pretty well covers the required information.
    v8,9,10,11 are non-signs
    12 – 18 Compare to Acts etc.
    The “End Times” part begins v 25
    Question fulfilled 70ce.
    Consider Luke 21 v 37/8 with Matthew 24 v 3 & Mark 13 v 3
    Note in Matthew 24 v 3 and Mark 13 v 4 the question clearly requests end time information.
    Given 21 v 24b is still functional then the “a”Holy Place must allude to another Temple…Matthew 21 v 42-44.
    Let the reader use discernment 24 v 15b & Mark 13 v 14b.
    Daniel 11 v 31b “the disgusting thing” I suggest is the pollution of the Apostles’ Christian Congregations.
    By the Third Council of Constantinople 680-681 A. D [+1290 & +1335 years]
    Therefore the Abomination still has time to run even upon and including WBTS,
    If you read the result of this council you will know where the early Christian church was swallowed. & still is.
    B
    [I no longer think the Ships of Kittim are the British Navy or the Roman Navy, it was as Daniel states Ships of Kittim. Battle of the Masts in 655ce which defeat the E Roman Navy.

    http://yahweh-immanuel.info/da.....bomination

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    • Reader says:

      We have All been getting mixed up on these Prophecies; Matt 24 Mark 13 Luke 21.

      Luke 21 happens first then later in the evening, the meeting of Jesus with four disciples in private is recorded by Matthew and Mark. You must ALSO bring Daniel into the solution because that’s what you need to discern, so the verse says.

      http://www.yahweh-immanuel.inf.....lysis.html

      We’ve all confused these at some times, I have.
      B

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