Jehovah’s Witness’s at one time claimed to know what constellation of stars Jehovah God dwelled in. When I found this out I couldn’t believe anyone on Earth could be bold enough to make such a claim. Where did they get this knowledge? It certainly did not come from the Bible. Here are there claims:

1927 “The face of the deep, of course, would be toward the Pleiades, which are claimed to be the habitation of Jehovah.” (Creation; 1927; 2,175,000 ed.; p. 94)

1928 “The constellation of the seven stars forming the Pleiades appears to be the crowning center around which the known systems of the planets revolve even as our sun’s planets obey the sun and travel in their respective orbits. It has been suggested, and with much weight, that one of the stars of that group is the dwelling-place of Jehovah and the place of the highest heavens;…” (Reconciliation; 1928; p. 14)

1928 “The constellation of the Pleiades is a small one compared with others which scientific instruments disclose to the wondering eyes of man. But the greatness in size of other stars or planets is small when compared with the Pleiades in importance, because the Pleiades is the place of the eternal throne of God.” (Reconciliation; 1928; p. 14)
Can you believe this? Keep in mind this is after 1914 when “Christ” chose them to give “food at the proper time.”

“This belief is documented for 62 years beginning in 1891. It was not until 1953 that the Watchtower finally admitted this was a mistake.”
The Watchtower of 1953 which states:
“Incidentally, Pleiades can no longer be considered the center of the universe and it would be unwise for us to try to fix God’s throne as being at a particular spot in the universe. Were we to think of the Pleiades as his throne we might improperly view with special veneration that cluster of stars”

So I ask the question, “What do we really know?” From this I would say we know we cannot trust these men and probably most men at that. The Bible warns, ” Do not put YOUR trust in nobles, Nor in the son of earthling man, to whom no salvation belongs.” (Ps. 146:3)

However men still insist they are chosen by God to lead and they claim to have special knowledge as the GB/JW’s do. Jesus warned us about such men and it is clearly written in scripture. I’m not going to go there as most of you already know those warnings. The question is, do you heed them?

What I want to talk about is this, “What do we really know?” In other words, what do we know that is common knowledge and we don’t need to prove it to anybody? Can you think of anything good that we all know? We all know the sun will come up tomorrow right? We all know it will go down tonight. We all know who loves us and we all know who doesn’t. How about this, do we know the difference between right and wrong? You might think that is a crazy question but in this world we live in it is evident that many do not know the difference between right and wrong, good and evil. In the garden of Eden wasn’t that the big question? Why the tree of Knowledge of good and bad? There was no “tree” about doctrines such as hell or heaven or the trinity or one God. The “tree” was only the knowledge of good and evil.

So what do we know? Do we know right from wrong? Good from evil? What do you think matters most in Gods eyes? Having correct doctrine and understanding of the Bible or understanding good and evil and living a good life? Personally, I believe way to many people get hung up on correct doctrine. The JW’s are so hung up on this that if you do not believe what they teach 100% and vocalize it you will be disfellowshipped from all your family and friends who are JW’s. How sad is that? Probably the ONLY PEOPLE who claim to be “Christian” that has ever ALSO claimed to know exactly where God lives! Saying, “the Pleiades is the place of the eternal throne of God.” Say WHAT?

So again, What do we know? I could ask many, many questions about what we really know about the Bible but I’m not going to go there. What I do know is all of Jesus words ring true to me. Do not judge. Love your enemy and neighbor. Be good to those who persecute you. Turn the other cheek. Pray for those who persecute you. The list can go on and on but the BASIC TRUTH is LOVE. To love your enemy was a NEW commandment. To me that seamed like a radical change in Gods way of thinking but that’s me and my opinion. I do not want to force my opinion on you so please take my opinion with a grain of salt.

Do we know what it means to LOVE? Is this a feeling or an action? I think most of us believe it is both but only demonstrated by actions right? So how do we show love? Is it right to force our opinion of what we believe on anyone? Is that loving? Is it really loving for JW’s to go door to door week after week knocking on the same doors with there propaganda? I honestly do not think so. I did this at one time and I thought it was a loving thing to do but in retrospect, I was pushing my belief on others. Is my belief that important? Could I perhaps be doing something more productive with my time?

What do you think God would rather see you do? Go to a persons door and prove your belief about heaven and hell to someone or ask them if there is anything you can do for them today? The TRUTH IS WE do not know squat about heaven or hell. None of us have ever seen either place. Some think they will live forever on earth and some believe they will go to heaven. Does it really matter? Personally I believe the Bible teaches there is only one hope for Christians, that is heavenly. But I can read so that was simple for me. Do I know for a hard core fact that the Bible is 100% accurate? Honestly? No I do not and I don’t know how anyone who wasn’t alive in the day it was written can claim otherwise. To me they might as well tell me what galaxy God lives in like JW’s did. Don’t get me wrong. I am not doubting the Bible, I’m only making a point. WE DON’T KNOW AS MUCH AS WE THINK WE KNOW! That is a FACT…

So what do we really know? Do our actions show that we know how to love? Are we hospitable? Do we help strangers? Are we like the good Samaritan? Do we do charitable works? Do we love our family and put them first? Do we take care of our parents when they get old? Do we spend time with sick people? Matthew 25: 37-40 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’ 40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.” Was Christ worried about doctrine or right/good/loving actions? If we see a person that needs help we should view it as Christ himself needing help according to Matthew 25:37-40. Please read the rest of Matthew 25 and see his reaction to those who do not show this kind of love.

To me this is very simple. I didn’t need to look up the Greek or Hebrew meaning of this text to understand it. This is not really debatable is it? Maybe for some but not me. So what do we really know? Hopefully we know what LOVE is because so many in this world really do not know. We can debate religion for hours and promote our view of the Bible and that is great as long as we are humble and don’t force it on others. Is it right to force others to agree with our fallible doctrine or be disfellowshipped? JW’s recognize they are in fact fallible. Yet if you disagree or have different views and are vocal about it you are disfellowshipped. One can only wonder how God views all the heart ache and pain this has caused. For the JW/GB/Witness’s to DF someone for preaching against 1914 is like DFing them for not believing God lives in the “constellation of the Pleiades”. How crazy is that?

I believe in Jesus myself but what if I learned Christ was a myth and the Bible was the work of man? would that stop me from practicing LOVE? Hopefully not! What if you learn everything you believed and were taught was wrong? Would you reject the wonderful design in nature and become an Atheist? That is all up to you but remember, even an Atheist can show love. Who will God love more? The Atheist who loves his family and provides and does good to people or the Bible preacher that preaches from the roof tops but has no love?

So what do we really know? We hopefully know how to LOVE and that is really all I think we can truly get 100% right or close to it. Love NEVER fails. (1 Corinthians 13:8)

Your brother,
Greybeard

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53 Comments on What Do We Really Know?

  1. serein says:

    I WONDER IF THE BIBLE STUDENTS STILL BELEIVE HE LIVES IN THEM STARS, I DONT GO ON THERE SITE ANYMORE,I HAVE READ ONCE BEFOR OF A GROUP BELEIVING THE SAME BUT CANT REM WERE BUT THEY BELIVED HE WAS ALIEN SO JUST GOES TO SHOW DOSNT IT,IF UR GOING TO JOIN A RELIGION LOOK IT UP FIRST ON INTERNET SE THERE BEGININGS BACK GROUND THEN LOOK TO THE SCRIPTURES OR UR BRAIN AND SEE WETHER ITS TRUTH OR NOT,WISH ID HAD A COMPUTER WHEN I FIRST STARTED STUDYING WITH EM.

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  2. jacqueline says:

    This is one of the most logical, loving pieces I have read in a good long time. My neighbors ex pasted and all of his children are at his home next door to me. I think I am going to get ready go out and get a cake, and make a big pan of Lasagna for all those young adults visiting from other states. Thank you Grey for reminding me to show love, compassion and empathy. I heard her death from Cancer was hard. Thank you Greybeard for reminding to do the right and loving thing for a change. I won’t give literature either, but if one ask me about the dead I will bring them next door and answer from the Bible only not doctrine. (PS. They always ask me Bible questions).

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    • greybeard says:

      Thank you Jacqueline,

      I am reminding myself as well as I need to practice showing love more too. My main area is people recovering from alcohol and drug addiction. Many of them are just learning the basics about love because many have been drugged from a very young age. They understand love and that is all they respond to. Start talking doctrine and then you loose them.

      As far as The Bible Students go, they do not force their religion on anyone. They don’t hound people at the door, they go to fairs and public places. They do not disfellowship a person for not agreeing because they recognize they are fallible. I have much more respect for them than I do JW’s. Personally I don’t really consider Bible Students as JW’s. Bible Students followed Russell mostly and JW’s were created by Rutherford. The above quotes about the stars are from Rutherford. I try to love people regardless of what they believe, even if they don’t believe in anything at all like Atheist. Love never fails.

      I don’t care is someone thinks God lives on the back side of the Moon. Just don’t force it on me or DF me because I don’t believe it. That is 100% wrong.

      Your brother,
      Greybeard

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  3. JJ says:

    Wonderful counsel Greybeard. Thank you brother for this encouragement. The debate over doctrine and beliefs will never end, but “love endures all things”.

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    • greybeard says:

      Thank you JJ,

      True, the debate will never end and that is fine as long as we don’t insist on being right to the point of DFing those that do not agree. If we would focus more on love and doing good for our brother then doctrine we would be better off in my opinion. I am speaking to myself as well as others.

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  4. LonelySheep says:

    Nice thoughts Greybeard.

    Regarding going from door to door, I still do it, but not for the same reasons as I did when I was a young ‘pup’. Back then I was puffed up with knowledge and wanted to convert the whole world. And if they didn’t listen they would get what they deserved at Armageddon.

    That has now all changed for me now. I go out to preach because Jesus did, and no matter what, a clear directive to talk about the kingdom is given in Matthew. So my going out has nothing because the so called faithful slave says so. Like you I can read, and Jesus said we should preach as he did. End of. HOW we do this and WHY we do this (ie our motivation) is a different matter. If we preach with a view to help people see that their is hope for the human race and that we are not stuck with the useless politicians that is a positive, and I AM HAPPY to take such Good News to people. But you are right regarding doctrine. I limit my discussions to the Kingdom promise and that is about it.

    Regarding knowledge and what we know, reading the thoughts on this forum and others it is clear a convincing argument can be given for nearly any view. We are all going to heaven, no we are not. Jesus will walk the earth again, no he will not. We should all take the emblems, no we should not. On and on and on. I’ve come to realize there will NEVER be a consensus regarding prophetic truth. So for me, I treat everybody’s argument INCLUDING MY OWN THOUGHTS with a pinch of salt. As far a following another religion, don’t even go there. If anybody tells me they have the ‘Truth’ I’ll run a mile. The only time Truth will be firmly established and shut the mouth of every man (including mine) will be at the return of Christ. Until that time, the best we can do is as you say be non-judgemental about other peoples view, be charitable to all and preach with humility and not with the arrogance that dwelt in my heart.

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    • greybeard says:

      Thank you LonelySheep,

      I was the same way, I wanted to convert the world. Personally I am no longer for the “door to door” ministry. I think it hurts way more than it helps. I would rather use attraction rather than promotion. Remember, the people flocked to Christ, he didn’t need to go find them. They found him. If we were like Christ, the same would happen today. I don’t think the apostles went to every door. If they did they would have had to tap dance dusting their feet off, as Jesus told them to do, after every door that rejected them. I believe they went to public places in the streets and then met at homes to congregate. Not house after house from door to door over and over and over. The JW’s are looked at as nuts not because of good works but because of false prophesying.

      You mentioned preach the good news of the Kingdom. That has been done already in my opinion world wide. That was stated a long time ago in the Bible. I personally think people should practice what they preach. Do they truly love their neighbor? Instead of putting time down regarding preaching doctrine of the GB, what if the JW had to report time of helping widows and orphans or giving to the poor?

      The apostles who followed and walked with Christ left everything behind. Home, money, business and went out to heal the sick and the blind. How many JW’s leave it all behind? How many take care of the sick, blind and poor?

      The GB/JWorg are sitting on millions and millions of dollars in property and buildings. In New York alone the buildings are not being used for anything and they are worth millions. Do they sell them and give to the poor as Jesus said to do? No, they think they were appointed over Jesus belongings and those belong to Christ. What would Jesus do with them? He would sell every piece of property, all Kingdom Halls and convention centers and give to the poor. That was what he taught. That was the KINGDOM MESSAGE. Do good works for the homeless and poor! Did the first century christians need kingdom halls? Did they build them? How many JW’s spend weekend after weekend building halls for free? I was one of them!

      How do you think we are to “store up treasures in heaven”? By going door to door with the Watchtower? Telling people about Gods Kingdom? No, we are to live as if we were in Gods Kingdom now. Helping the sick, the hungry, the poor. That is what Jesus did. Where in the Bible does Jesus preach doctrine? Maybe I missed something but I thought it was all about LOVE.

      I like the way The Message Bible puts it in James 1: 26-27, “Anyone who sets himself up as “religious” by talking a good game is self-deceived. This kind of religion is hot air and only hot air. Real religion, the kind that passes muster before God the Father, is this: Reach out to the homeless and loveless in their plight, and guard against corruption from the godless world.”

      That, in my opinion, hit the nail right on the head! Bang! Personally I believe if God wanted us to know all the facts about him and “true doctrine” he would have written it on plates of Gold and protected it to this day. There would be no doubts about doctrine. Is there any doubts about what LOVE really is? Think about it…

      Many say the Bible has been protected by God… hmmm… Really? Is that so? Then why all the different Bibles that support differing doctrine? Where is this perfect unadulterated Bible at? I would love to have one! The one thing in the Bible that is perfect is the teaching of right and wrong. Jesus Christ teaching on LOVE. Maybe God did protect that and let all the doctrine changes go on by. I don’t know. What I do know is I can support the trinity as good as anyone and refute it as good as anyone using most Bibles available. So what’s up with that? However, I can not change Jesus Christ’s message of LOVE. I believe it is this message that gets lost in preaching doctrine.

      The first century Christians were to be one in the spirit of LOVE. Jesus abolished the written code freeing people to use their God Given Conscience to tell right from wrong. The JW’s spent the last 100 years writing in the Watchtower the GB’s code of Conscience enforcing their LAWS on all JW’s. Touching on many things not even spoken of in the Bible. Flip flopping over and over. We all know this.

      I can go on and on so I will stop here,
      lets not strain out the nat and gulp down the camel.
      Lets not miss the true Kingdom Message of LOVE for ALL, tax collectors, sinners, homeless, poor, sick, old, orphans, widows and the like. That was the GOOD NEWS. Give and you shall receive.
      God is making an “estimate of hearts” he is “searching the heart” NOT THE BRAIN. Think about that…

      Love you all,
      off my soap box now,
      Your brother,
      Greybeard

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      • greybeard says:

        Another point…

        If anyone thinks they are a true Christian and will be ruling with Jesus in heaven then they better be living up to Matthew 25: 37-40 / James 1: 26-27/ and all of Christ examples of practicing LOVE.

        What will Gods Kingdom bring? The hungry will be fed. The sick and blind cured. Everyone will have a home, no homeless people…

        If you are not helping the hungry, the sick, the homeless now in this system… You better not count on ruling with Christ in heaven IN MY OPINION… That is how I read Jesus.

        Talk is cheep, action speaks louder than words… God doesn’t want to hear talk, he wants to see LOVE in action from our heart.

        TMHO 😉

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  5. Papabear says:

    I appreciate all of these points. The GB/JW org has drilled so much into doctrin and our unquestioned loyalty to the FDS that we often forget the real purpose in life. It is truly sad to see how many loving individuals have been effected by GB/JW propaganda pushing us to focus on the wrong things.

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  6. DanielB says:

    (Another) Greybeard asks:

    “What I want to talk about is this, “What do we really know?” In other words, what do we know that is common knowledge and we don’t need to prove it to anybody? Can you think of anything good that we all know?”

    Well, this is interesting. When I first studied with Jehovah’s Witnesses, I began talking to a friend from high school days about it. His first reaction was: “Jehovah’s Witnesses?! Aren’t they the ones who believe in some star out there somewhere?”

    After laughing, I went on to explain a bit.

    Hmm. He HAD then said that he heard that about a star, “or some stars” from his mother. Very interesting.

    So back to the things we DO know…

    This on forgiveness: The way I read is that we must forgive OUR BROTHERS, and it would seem our brothers especially.

    From the bible, what do we know about this?

    dw

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    • greybeard says:

      High DanielB,

      Nice beard 😉 Now we know your not a JW… About forgiveness… That was one of Jesus Christ main teachings. To forgive others from our heart. Kinda flies in the face of disfellowshipping in my opinion. It is apart of showing true love. We should apply this to everyone including the GB/JWorg as hard as that might be. I know it isn’t easy for me as I tend to harbor a lot of resentment for them because of the judging they practice. Thanks for including this topic as well… It is highly important.

      Your brother,
      Greybeard

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  7. DanielB says:

    I should add, I am “bruceguth”, and have been posting here. I’ll stick with this name DanielB.

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  8. Papabear says:

    I would say show love to individuals in the GB/JW org. As for the organization itself as a whole, not so much.

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    • DanielB says:

      Good thoughts to consider; thank you.

      I am looking for much more here on this topic of forgivness. In the world there is an expression, “tough love”. Jehovah expresses tough love in a sense. Jesus expresses tough love in a sense. The Apostles expressed tough love in a sense. Is “unconditional love” a scriptural direction for us? I am looking for scriptural words related to forgiveness, so that we see the right balance with it for ourselves. Many thoughts along these lines are going through my head on these things.
      I know we need Bible examples to reveal these things as they relate to forgiveness. Some say forgive and forget, because if we don’t forget the wrong, we havn’t forgiven. Really? Is it ever right to forgive and remember? Is love always sweet?

      Bible examples…
      Bible directives…
      Bible prophesies.

      DanielB

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  9. greybeard says:

    Hi DanielB,

    What kind of love did Jesus show for those who put him to death? What kind of love did he show for the sinner who died next to him? I don’t think this was “tough love” do you?

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    • DanielB says:

      Hi. What kind of love did Jesus show for the Pharisees, some of whom could well have turned around and followed him? What kind of love does Jesus show toward the evil slave? What kind of love did he show toward Peter when he responded, “Get away from me Satan”? You see brother, I’m looking for more than smooth love. We get smooth love sometimes, don’t we? …And from those who “do not know what they are doing” either, as with those who killed our brothers. There is more to this than love to consider, isn’t there?

      Yes Jesus and Stephen both took forgiveness all the way to death. What point can be gleaned from Jude 20-23.

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      • DanielB says:

        …And with “what we really know”, what can we gain from Revelation 11:1-13. That is, on how our forgiveness relates to forgiveness. Similar thoughts for us at Luke 17:1-4.

        Thank you for your points Greybeard. I’m looking for consideration of such things as when Joseph loved his brothers while holding his youngest brother. Was there love? Was there forgiveness?

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        • greybeard says:

          Hi DanielB,

          I never said “tough love” is not shown in the Bible. We all know how Jesus spoke to the Pharisees. Peter and the like. When it comes to forgiving mankind of our sin I personally believe God will be much more forgiving than most give him credit for. Forgiveness is a very good subject and you could write a great article on it I’m sure. However, that is not the main subject of this thread. This thread is about giving to those who cannot pay back. Many go all their lives thumping the Bible and don’t lift a hand to help anyone. I know many JW’s who are just like that. Unless they get a paycheck you won’t see them. Not all are that way true. The focus of the JW/org is not on charitable works. James said, “faith without works is dead”. As you have pointed out… Love can be shown in many ways and forgiveness is at the top of the list. Jesus not only forgave but he healed the sick and the blind. He taught us to take care of the poor/sick/hungry/homeless/strangers. I know that is not easy but if it wasn’t for his teaching’s I think this world would be way worse off. There are many who apply what Jesus taught as far as taking care of the sick and poor. JW’s are off that list. My point of this thread is… true doctrine is debatable and hard to find. True LOVE is not. It is very clear and many who think they are “christian” miss the entire point of Jesus ministry.

          Your brother,
          Greybeard

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          • DanielB says:

            Now I see what you have been getting to Greybeard, with this post. I think that the title was something I had trouble over, since I was trying to keep with it in the vein of discussion. Please forgive.

            One thought here on your point, if I may keep this from being a dead-ended thread, is your words:

            “However, that is not the main subject of this thread. This thread is about giving to those who cannot pay back.”

            I didn’t know. I was trying to contribute something for all of us, and I misjudged. I hope you see it as a misunderstanding brother.

            Just a concluding thoughts here on “forgivness”, and I’ll let it go.

            We have been called to endure the same ways in which Jesus had been, by the Father. And Jesus had the apostle write this this down. 1 Peter 4:12 and 13 features Jesus as an example for his chosen brothers in writing, “Dear friends, do not be surprised at the painful trial you are suffering, as though something strange were happening to you. But rejoice that you participate in the sufferings of Christ, so that you may be overjoyed when his glory is revealed.” So in other words, don’t be surprised at this now in this life, since it will all be worthwhile later.

            As we forgive as Christ Jesus did, the most will be gained from this world, and for all will stand before YHWH.

            As you say above, your point is on giving to others what they cannot pay back. Such is, forgiving our enemies.

            Philia,
            In Christ,

            DanielB

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  10. Papabear says:

    I want to thank you once again for great points. I was actually able to talk to my wife about losing focus from Jesus words here. We had a great conversation about it. She didn’t hesitate to agree that focusing on goals that the GB has put in place can take our focus off showing love for orphans, widows, homeless, etc…
    We had a great discussion today. We had a 2 hour drive to the airport and I decided to focus 100% on the main things Jesus asked of his followers. I don’t think the short term results could have been any better. I just hope that it sticks in her mind as we talk in the future. We shall see. Thank you again my brothers.

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    • greybeard says:

      Hi Papabear,

      That is great news. There are many, many areas ones can donate their time. Mine is with helping alcoholics and drug addicts as this keeps me in tune with my sobriety. I have a good friend who does the same and his wife is a volunteer at the local hospital. Many sick and old have no family and they need such volunteers. There are many avenues to take. A local newspaper or chamber of commerce can advise I’m sure. Many churches are involved in such activities as well. I think time spent in this area is truly storing up treasure in heaven. I need to increase such activity in my own life. Thanks for the good news.

      Your brother,
      Greybeard

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  11. greybeard says:

    No need to forgive you Daniel, you never offended me in the least. Sometimes I am a little unclear and I can see how my title can throw someone off.

    I should have named it, “What Do We Know About Doctrine” because my point is so many believe unless you believe in this or that, Jesus will reject you. I personally believe God is reading our hearts. Those who do good are in effect obeying Jesus weather they know it or not. As a matter fact Matthew 25:37-40 could be possibly applied to people who were not Christian. They were shocked that they helped Jesus out were they not?

    Thank you for you input Daniel and always feel free to set me straight or correct me. Lord knows I need the help.

    Your brother,
    Greybeard

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  12. Papabear says:

    I need to focus more on it too. I always jump at opportunities to help those I am close to and their families. But what about others? Jesus didn’t limit himself to helping those he was close to. Why should we. My wife and I discussed situations we could help others last night. I am excited to put a conscience effort toward helping anyone in any way I can.

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    • greybeard says:

      That’s great, Sometimes craigslist has posts under community asking for volunteers. Just be careful. Many orgs might take advantage. If I know someone in jail I make it a point to visit. Where ever people are low and suffering. Older people are very lonely when they have no family and all friends are gone. Even rest homes may need volunteer workers just to visit older ones. Some situations might require that you take a small class for volunteers, like a hospital. They also might require a person to wear a uniform. I know Hospice needs volunteers.. when my mother had cancer they were a lot of help. Some volunteer workers were musicians and one lady brought a nice harp and played for my mother. It is really nice when people take the time to do things like this. Those are special people.

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  13. JJ says:

    A few Saturdays ago our family went out in service and just brought cards and flowers to several sick and recovering families in the congregation all morning. It felt like we accomplished so much more than knocking on empty houses…The friends really appreciated it.

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    • greybeard says:

      The feeling you get tells a lot. Yesterday, our neighbor who go to a local church and are very active, brought us over some hot chicken noodle soup. It was great too! I told my wife, that was a Christian loving thing to do. She is a JW, she said, “why did you have to say that”? Like as if I was putting the JW’s down… I told her, I know JW’s do things like this too but I’m just saying these are really good people and this was a loving act. It made me feel good. We need to do more stuff like this. Not once have they ever given us any literature from their church.

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  14. Amos says:

    Dear Friends, I have been absent for a few days, & am now just catching up. What a great article & comments!

    I also firmly believe that if we are to be Kings & Priests with our Lord, that we should begin our duties NOW, as soon as we come to this understanding. Why wait until later to begin doing good to others? And I totally agree that this includes much more than sticking a bible & magazines into someones hand. Our duties include helping those who need help in a material & emotional way also….help the sick & the needy.

    Remember the “Good Samaritan”!

    If Jesus healed the sick, fed the multitudes, my view is that we should NOW be doing what we can, in imitation of our Master…you know “footstep followers”.

    When I get settled in my new home, this is an area that I wish to explore myself, as my health will permit, I’m already looking toward that now. Giving with no thought or desire of repayment is truely a Godly quality.

    Great article Greybeard, my brother.

    Amos

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  15. belongingtojah says:

    Just a thought on forgiveness – if we want to be forgiven we must forgive – if we want to be shown mercy we must be merciful – mercy exults triumphantly over judgement. Those who know God’s Word are familiar with these sayings. As to forgetting – I’m not sure that’s even possible as Jehovah gave us a wonderful brain that really does remember most things – rather than forget we need to be sure that we are not resentful, showing we have truly forgiven.
    I’m reminded of 2Pet 3:9 where Jehovah does not want any to be destroyed but desire all to attain to repentance. Yes Jehovah knows that the vast majority of mankind will not and will be destroyed. It seems to me that that is written so that we should have Jehovah’s merciful attitude yet still remembering that it will not work out well for all.

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    • Dennis says:

      BTJ said, “Yes Jehovah knows that the vast majority of mankind will not and will be destroyed.”

      How do you get that idea from 2Pet. 3:9? I don’t think that scripture shows any such thing.

      Dennis

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      • Dennis says:

        Dennis:
        BTJ said, “Yes Jehovah knows that the vast majority of mankind will not and will be destroyed.”

        How do you get that idea from 2Pet. 3:9? I don’t think that scripture shows any such thing.

        Dennis

        Hope my tone didn’t sound harsh. I sure didn’t mean it to.

        Your Brother,
        Dennis

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        • Amos says:

          Agree with you Dennis, Neither the Father or the Son desire the death of the wicked, so I see the comment of BTJ to be out of harmony with the scriptures.

          Amos

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  16. DanielB says:

    WHAT DO WE REALLY KNOW?

    This is the heading for this post, so I thought I might bring up another thought on this.

    Some others at another site were discussing similarities between Jehovah’s Witnesses dogma and that of Christendom’s other sects, and this comparison came up:

    “Some believe the claim that the Pope sits on Peter’s throne and other claims made by various Christian religions are in the FDS category. In principle, all that the Watchtower has done and claimed, has already been done and claimed by other Christian religions. In other words, is there a difference between a JW giving their life over blood and another Christian giving their life in military service to the Pope as many in the past have done?

    Christians have been killed serving their Christian religious leaders for almost 2000 years. They have also been misled, abused and lorded over. Nothing is new under the ‘Christian’ sun.”

    So my point here is that what we really know, is that ones described at Revelation 7:9, “out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues,” who are seen “standing before the throne and before the Lamb” attributing salvation to YHWH and the Lamb, are peoples from a variety of christian convictions. This is what I do know. Comments?

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    • Amos says:

      I must also agree with you Daniel.

      I think that there are many similarities between JW’s & most other religions, they just manifest themselves in a different format.

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    • andrew says:

      Daniel
      Another brother I was recently talking to mentioned the similarity between the JWs and the Catholic church. I have noticed (at least in the congregations where I have been) how many JWs are ex-Catholics.

      The JW organ. is nothing new or special. It does not in my opinion especially fulfill any prophecies. It is just another Christians sect, just like every other denomination.

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  17. DanielB says:

    Some of my favorite people have Catholic background, and some JW. The love is the final identity.

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  18. DanielB says:

    Brother Greybeard, on this topic of “What Do We Really Know?”, I was considering whether our concept from being witnesses is something we really know: that is to say, do they really know who the “false prophet” of Revelation is? Just reading this over here, is something you may find interesting, as I see it. I have had to rethink most everything regarding their interpretations.

    It reads, at 16:13,14,(NWT):

    “And I saw three unclean inspired expressions [that looked] like frogs come out of the mouth of the wild beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet. They are, in fact, expressions inspired by demons and perform signs, and they go forth to the kings of the entire inhabited earth, to gather them together to the war of the great day of God the Almighty.”

    The thought that occured to me is that there is a religious false prophet. It calls the Anglo/U.S. “the false prophet”.

    And, the Anglo/U.S. world calls the false prophet what it is too.

    Thy reading it this way, and I am entertaining comments back. Anyone else could chime in. Or, if you prefer Greybeard, There is always the option to start a post.

    Interesting thoughts here…

    Jesus be with you bro.

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    • greybeard says:

      I don’t really know DanielB. Has the US acted like a prophet? I don’t really think so. The US is mostly a christian country. At least they profess to be. Personally I believe Gods promises to Israel are irrevocable. (Romans 11:29) I think the nations in opposition to christianity and Israel fall more into the category of false prophet. look at Islam, the Qur’an and the prophet Muhammad. I believe all those Islamic nations are going to war against Israel and Christ will step in and do battle for them once again. This will turn a heart of stone into a heart of flesh and they will finally except Jesus. Of corse I may be wrong but that is my feelings on the matter. We won’t know till it happens. I am open to any interpretation. Feel free to enlighten me. I have much to learn.

      Your brother,
      greybeard

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      • DanielB says:

        If so, there may be some well-rewarded Jews in the end; if they have been keeping all 10 of the Commandments.

        And the 7th Day Adventists?

        I guess we can wait to see.

        (settle down Dan!)

        Philia

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        • greybeard says:

          Why do you say that DanielB? Is there anyone on this planet keeping Gods commandments? Jehovah is not going to save anyone due to their works. He told Israel this:

          Ezekiel 36:22, “Therefore say to the house of Israel, ‘This is what the Sovereign LORD says: It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am going to do these things, but for the sake of my holy name, which you have profaned among the nations where you have gone.”

          When I read Ezekiel I feel strongly that Yahweh will vindicate his name through Israel. Not because of anything on their part as Ezekiel 36:22 says. They profaned his name but he is still going to live up to his promise. Ezekiel brings out that God is going to save a nation that profaned him. He will turn a heart of stone into a heart of flesh.

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          • DanielB says:

            Interesting, that I see the Sabbaths as being, rather than “works”, desisting from works. (“Jehovah is not going to save anyone due to their works.”)

            Some keep all 10 Commandments. (“Is there anyone on this planet keeping Gods commandments?”)

            “He will turn a heart of stone into a heart of flesh.” Yes, with fleshly Israel, or spiritual Isreal.

            One thing is for sure, as these things happen, we will have the fulfillment right before us, if we live.

            Good discussion.

            dw

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  19. DanielB says:

    OOPS! Did it again. I meant “TRY reading it…”.

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    • Amos says:

      Daniel & All,
      About a year ago, I obtained a book by Erik Skolfield titled; “The False Prophet”. I at first thought that it was a bit far fetched, but have studied it with another brother here in AU, & we are starting to think that he may be onto something that we have overelooked for centuries…..ISLAM!!!
      It is a very indepth study of Daniel, Revelation & some other scriptures, & it looks very likely indeed.
      Another thing that we have just learnt, (a few days ago) is that Muslems consider the Koran to be completed by the number 666.

      1. When & where was the Dome of the Rock built?

      2. How does this fit into the “days” prophecies in Daniel, & “the courtyard of the gentiles” in Revelation?

      This book can be read online freely, or can be purchased online also.

      This is just to wet your appetite. I am quite open to personal emails/messages, & will reply ASAP, due to my itinerant nature at the moment. I can give any who is interested a link to the online book to read.

      Amos

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      • DanielB says:

        Yes, I would like that link Amos. Thanks. I have considered the Dome of the Rock as being a disgusting thing standing where it shouldn,t.

        I have also been comparing Daniel to other inspired prophesies by the ancients, including John’s.

        The little study book on Daniel’s prophesy is a joke.

        I have other reference mtl. on Daniel too.

        I’d like to see this by Erik Skolfield.

        ……………………

        I have a friend by the name of Daniel B. Wallace, and that is my name too, only his is Baird and mine is Bruce. We both have bloodline to Scotland, and close to William Wallace, (Scottish national hero, ‘portrayed’ by the movie Braveheart).

        Anyway, Daniel can easily be found by typing his name in to any search engine. He’s a theologian well respected, with books, and mant letters, a professor, etc…etc… Last time we emailed each other he was photographing ancient manuscripts around the Mediterranean. I think we ought to see what he knows on fullfillments of Daniel’s prophesy. Maybe I can find something in his works online. I’ll go hunt…

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    • Amos says:

      Daniel,
      I agree with you concerning the Sabbath, as being for our rest, & not for ritual works…..which are null & void since the Cross.

      Hebrews 4:1-13 speaks of entering into “God’s rest”, as follows;
      1 “Therefore, while the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us fear lest any of you should seem to have failed to reach it. 2 For good news came to us just as to them, but the message they heard did not benefit them, because they were not united by faith with those who listened. 3 For we who have believed enter that rest, as he has said,

      “As I swore in my wrath,
      ‘They shall not enter my rest,’”

      although his works were finished from the foundation of the world. 4 For he has somewhere spoken of the seventh day in this way: “And God rested on the seventh day from all his works.” 5 And again in this passage he said,

      “They shall not enter my rest.”

      6 Since therefore it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly received the good news failed to enter because of disobedience, 7 again he appoints a certain day, “Today,” saying through David so long afterward, in the words already quoted,

      “Today, if you hear his voice,
      do not harden your hearts.”

      8 For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken of another day later on. 9 So then, there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God, 10 for whoever has entered God’s rest has also rested from his works as God did from his.

      11Let us therefore strive to enter that rest, so that no one may fall by the same sort of disobedience. 12 For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart. 13 And no creature is hidden from his sight, but all are naked and exposed to the eyes of him to whom we must give account.”

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  20. DanielB says:

    And if that false prophet is in fact the religious one, I would add Ecclesiastes to the scenario. I love this Scripture! It warns of speaking against those in power in this world:

    10:20(NWT): “Even in your bedroom do not call down evil upon the king himself, and in the interior rooms where you lie down do not call down evil upon anyone rich; for a flying creature of the heavens will convey the sound and something owning wings will tell the matter.”

    Also, the seabeast turns on and devours that religious harlot Babylon. Could relate…

    dw

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  21. Canilynn says:

    Well I skipped over the last few posts but wanted to comment on the original. I really appreciate the thoughts of how important love is. I remember even being 16 Just saying a quick hi to people I knew where df’d bc it just seemed like the loving thing to do. It may sound so small but do you know how much that might have meant to the df’d person who was coming to the kh every week without do much as someone smiling at them saying hello..? I used to always discuss how unloving that was with my father who was an elder. He fortunately did welcome some opinions and would just smile at me and say I agree you go ahead and say hi. I was thinking about it the other day and actually believe it’s my fathers “fault” I can’t be an active witness. He taught me to have an opinion and question things. In reality he should have disciplined me at an early age when I would ask questions and have an opinion. This in turn would have turned me into a better jw. One who just followed and did as they were told. But anyways, I now live my life by the guidelines of showing love. Which is honestly no easy task.

    Another thought. How many jw’s go door to door their whole life but fail to bring anyone in “the truth”? Now I know what I would be told… That it doesnt matter we are still doing as Jehovah asked which is preach. But what I’m getting at is how much more could that effort have done good if geared towards helping ones already IN ” the truth”?… Showing love to them, being accepting of their mistakes, not judging but helping them when they sin. Maybe then the numbers of jw’s would actually go up bc you wouldn’t have thousands df’d every year. I’m just saying. It’s really a shame how much love has left the congregation. I believe so much of what’s taught and long for that Christian fellowship but refuse to be apart of something so unloving. I really am glad I found this site. Graybeard and all others, the way you word things and speak I tell how loving you all are. It saddens me that most of us have probably been led to believe how bad we were at one time. I know me myself have thought how awful a person a must be when being apart of the jw organization. Even suicidal at one point in time. Now I live my life with Not stressing over the small stuff. Just trying to be a good Christian by following Christ example. I may fall short, I just pray about it and know I must move forward. Thanks again everyone

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    • greybeard says:

      Thank you Canilynn and welcome to our web site! We hope you enjoy it as much as we do.

      Your brother in Christ,
      Greybeard

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  22. JJ says:

    Canilynn

    I myself have helped bring several into “the truth” but what is really accomplished in the door to door work? Primarily we drive around burning up gas, visiting with each other, knocking on empty houses.

    2 Timothy 3:5 says many would have a “form of Godly devotion”. If field service is done to count time and get your hours in as a publisher or pioneer, etc. it is for nothing. There are many Witnesses that are down, in need of encouragement, and they are overlooked as weak. Jesus said the pharisees traveled hundreds of miles for one convert but neglected the greater things of the law.

    Our ministry and our service to God can take many many forms and we don’t have to limit ourselves to just one thing that may not even be very productive to begin with.

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  23. DanielB says:

    Exactly, Canilynn. I had experienced the same realization 20 years ago and more, for a time. Some of those were even people who the saying “Have nothing to do with them” had application to; and while I didn’t want to judge this way about them, additional traits within the Bible context here simply had applied. Also, “always learning, and yet never able to come to an accurate knowledge of truth”. And it’s sad that so many just don’t know any better. And there we have a result from within a cult, (the dreaded “C” word).
    But all will work out to God’s glory in the end, and He will collect His own. Who would have thought that we were in Babylon ! Or in that coined “antitypical unfaithful Jerusalem”.

    Not to worry though; as there are many many others who are brothers and sisters going through the same things. In a way, it’s exciting. And we have some limited opportunities to help others know the real truth as we grow, while knowing that harvesttime is getting closer. Just remember to be cautious as serpents and innocent as doves.

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