I made a page a few months ago when I started this site called “What I’ve Learned”. It appears below:

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Well to begin, I don’t know as much as I once thought I did. Being considered “strong in the truth” for so many years had made me somewhat overconfident. Trinity? Hellfire? Soul? “Let’s turn our Bibles to a scripture here in the book of…”, and away we go.

As an elder the friends come to you with questions, with concerns, with problems and with praise. You can get used to it. Giving literally thousands of talks makes you good at that too (hopefully!) as practice does with nearly any skill. And so you really must fight against arrogance and work at maintaining humility. It definitely can be done we’ve all known and seen these humble loving brothers. And by way of contrast we’ve all seen the other side of the spectrum too.

So once I began to study and research our theocratic history and the literature all the way back to Russell’s time, my perspective began to change. Little bits of information that had been filed away under “miscellaneous” and “that’s weird” in my brain began to pop up and click together like puzzle pieces.

This was a subtle thing and it took a few years for me to start to see it. This is not a very good comparison but it’s all I can come up with right now, and that is it’s like “The Matrix”. You can’t see it. It’s all around you. And it enslaves you without you even being aware of it’s presence. In some, but not all ways, the Watchtower Society has accomplished this feat with millions of Jehovah’s Witnesses. After all that I’ve read and studied and seen firsthand at Bethel and within the congregation, I know it and feel it to be true.

But yet I feel there is good within it too. The scriptures are taught and emphasized. Christian morality is elevated and we are given constant and much-needed reminders to keep on the watch. Is it all bad? No. But is that answer good enough…

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I’m starting to realize that we may never completely understand what we should do. Should I stay in “the truth”, and just continue to stay in  “stealth-mode”? One online poster out there called folks like me/us the “Conscious Class”. They are aware, or conscious of the problems, and are willing to investigate and at least make an effort to have an open mind.

Perhaps it’s just another matter of conscience. We know the love of Jehovah and Christ remains. They see our tears, and our Heavenly Father puts them in his “skin bottle”. (Ps 56:8)  Giving up the struggle, not necessarily ever winning it, may be the worst thing we can do. Luke 13:24 says “Exert yourselves vigorously to get in through the narrow door, because many, I tell YOU, will seek to get in but will not be able”. I will continue to exert myself- that is my prayer, and that is my determination. But it hurts friends. It hurts a lot sometimes, as many of you well know.

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20 Comments on What I’ve learned – part 2

  1. Andrew says:

    JJ, remember that JWs ARE within Jesus sheepfold. However being a JW will not give us everlasting life anymore than being a Baptist or Methodist does.
    When Jesus judges us our denomination will not even matter. He will consider things like were we humble, forgiving, charitable, did we lead a clean moral life ect.
    So I believe no one has to leave the organization to have God’s favor. But in some ways the organ. hurts us spiritually. We tend to adopt a judgmental attitude of other christians, perhaps we even feel superior, maybe we have learned to be rule-orientated instead of love-orientated etc. If this is the case or if our conscience is bothering us, the best thing to do would probably leave the organ. whatever the consequences.

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  2. greybeard says:

    JJ I believe the narrow door or narrow road is the heavenly calling to rule with Christ Jesus. Jesus was clear about those who do not partake of his “blood” and “flesh”… (Wine and bread) He said they have no life in them. There will be a great crowd that makes it. Much wider than the narrow road. These come to life after the thousand years have ended. Not that we shouldn’t exert ourselves but you must ask, what goal are you trying to achieve?

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    • Dennis says:

      The scripture in Revelation stating that the dead come to life after the 1000 years have ended is thought to be an interpolation. I agree that the narrow road is the heavenly call. To twist it differently is just an attempt to support the idea that there is another call (other than the “one call” spoken of by Paul) during this gospel age. Misapply this, add to it the misapplication of the “other sheep”, throw in a little misapplication of the “Great Crowd”, mix it all up and puff, you have denied a couple generations of followers the opportunity to seek the upward call. That is a crime against the body of Christ as far as I’m concerned. JFR was a regular magician.

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  3. JJ says:

    Brothers I’m still on the fence about this whole subject. By saying “the opportunity to seek the upward call” that implies that it is a personal choice- That if you want to go to heaven you can just go for it and you will have that destiny, but if you don’t and you’d rather live forever on earth then just go for that one. What about those ones being called by Jehovah God? Chosen by Christ? If they do the choosng then not Rutherford or anyone else could change their destiny.

    What am I missing here? I just dont see it…but I do know I need to study this subject more…

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    • Dennis says:

      Many are called, few are chosen. A called one has to make his election sure by being faithful unto death. If you are constantly being told you have an Earthly hope you just might not respond to the call and run the race. It is a personel choice to respond to the call, be baptised into Christ’s death (thus giving up prospects of any future earthly hope) and run the race of the upward call. One has to count the costs. There is no general call to everlasting life on a paradise earth at this time. There is no, just going for that option at this time. It’s all about the heavenly hope, the selecting of the bride of Christ and their being polished for co-rulership in the kingdom. The only call at this time is a heavenly one. In the Kingdom the world of mankind at large will have an opportunity. This is the way Witnesses used to believe. Then to support the change to a secondary earthly call in this age they started to misapply scripture such as Jn. 10:16 then try to weave into this misapplication the Jehu / Jonadab angle. If you haven’t done so yet, you might consider reading the first volume and also the “New Creation”. I would be interested in your feedback on these.

      D

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      • Dennis says:

        On review of my reply this morning I realized how dogmatic I sounded. It was not intentional. I was just trying to get to my beliefs via the shortest route possible. The written word is also very one dimensional. The way I wrote this made it sound like I thought, “End of story, end of discussion”. That was definitely not my intent. I love discussion on various topics and I definitely don’t know everything. In fact, I’m really still on the milk? : )

        Dennis

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  4. Dennis says:

    Brother JJ, what is your thought about the following; ” I agree that the narrow road is the heavenly call. To twist it differently is just an attempt to support the idea that there is another call (other than the “one call” spoken of by Paul) during this gospel age.” ? What scriptures do the Witness brothers currently use to support the idea that there is an Earthly call during this age and not in the millennium?

    D

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  5. Amos says:

    Brothers, I have done considerable study into this topic, & have come up with some interesting possibilties indeed. I must first say that I am not suggesting that it is a fact, but is a very real possibility.
    In brief, the faithful of old as mentioned in Hebrews ch.11, were all introduced as, “By faith.” We have always viewed these ones as being an earthly class, well my studies have raised the thought that these faithful men & women of pre-christian times could, perhaps will, receive the same destiny as the gospel age faithful in the Lord. (More on the destiny later)
    A thorough investigation of the Greek to English wording by use of the KJV interliear (numbered) & Strongs Concordance, leaves very little room for this to be otherwise. When we check the wording of the final two verses, 39, 40; to summarize, is very clearly saying that the Faithful of Old, will receive their resurrection along with the “saints” of the gospel age.
    These Ancient Worthies would then combine with the chosen Jewish Christians up until the calling & choosing of Cornelius & his household, in 36 AD. This is what I consider will make up the 144,000.
    From Cornelius until the end of the Gospel Age, (principly made up of Gentiles), would be the Great Crowd of Rev.7:9-17. This is where John 10:16 comes in, the “Other Sheep” that will be grafted into the olive tree, to become “one flock and one shepherd.”
    When we do a careful investigation of Revelation chapters, five, seven & fourteen, it will be seen that the 144,000 & the GC, are all worshiping & serving in the same place, (in Grk. “naos” translated into En. as “sanctuary”) & that ch. 5:9,10 shows that these ones “from every tribe and tongue and people and nation, are made ‘kings & priests’, and will reign on the earth.”
    As to the “calling,” during the gospel age, the only “call” that I can find in the scriptures, is the “heavenly call.” There is no evidence that there is a call now, for the next age, following Armageddon.
    I can go into substantial detail, including many scriptures, at a later date (after mid November) for any who are interested.

    Amos

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  6. Andrew says:

    I agree with the bros. here that state the hope extended to christians at this time is the heavenly one. If a person were to have a completely open mind and read the greek scriptures (the ones written to christians) never would he think that most christians alive today would have an earthly hope.
    Basically only 2 texts in the whole greek scriptures could possibly be twisted to say the hope for some christians is earthly. JN 10:16 which as previously been stated applies to christians gentiles. Rev. 7 the great crowd which one can show in numerous ways it is a heavenly group.

    144000 is obviously a symbolic number. 12 is a significant number as regards Israel ( 12 tribes, 12 apostles etc.). To heighten the symbolism you can square a number or take it times 1000 or 10000. 12 squared and times a thousand is 144000. These 144000 are spiritual israelites and are unnumbered.

    Notice in Rev. 7:4 that John never sees this group here merely hears the role-call. Later in vs. 9 he sees this group as a Great Crowd of people from all nations who are spiritual israelites.

    Hearing first and later seeing a group also takes place in Rev. 9:16,17. First John hears the number of mounted troops and later sees them. This is what is being described in Rev 7, first John hears the number of 144000 (symbolic) then he sees them as a great crowd. These 2 groups are one and the same.

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  7. Dennis says:

    Thanks for the info Amos. This is a big study and very difficult to encapsulate within a few words on a blog or in a forum.

    D

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  8. greybeard says:

    Wow… This is getting deep…
    My view from reading the Bible is the Christian hope/call is heavenly. What about an Earthly hope? Yes there is the Earthly hope for all those who miss the heavenly call. Is there an Earthly call? A call going out based on scripture to gather together those with a Earthly hope? The JW’s would say yes to this. They focus more on this Earthly call then they do the heavenly call. As a matter of fact, they do not focus at all on a heavenly calling. Not long ago they preached the heavenly call was full. Now they say that call might be open. The classic JW flip flop. I do not see anywhere in scripture a Earthly call. However I do see an Earthly hope and resurrection. The bottom line is if you are a REAL Christian your hope is heavenly. Jesus said if we do not partake we are without life…dead. John 6:53 Accordingly Jesus said to them: “Most truly I say to YOU, Unless YOU eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, YOU have no life in yourselves. 54 He that feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has everlasting life, and I shall resurrect him at the last day; 55 for my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. 56 He that feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood remains in union with me, and I in union with him. 57 Just as the living Father sent me forth and I live because of the Father, he also that feeds on me, even that one will live because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. It is not as when YOUR forefathers ate and yet died. He that feeds on this bread will live forever.” 59 These things he said as he was teaching in public assembly at Ca·per´na·um.

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  9. Dennis says:

    Regarding the Great Crowd, I would like to recommend a good booklet. It’s called, “Where Is The Great Crowd Serving God” by Jon Mitchell a former secretary to the Governing Body. I found it very interesting. I think I ordered it from Commentary Press.

    D

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    • Amos says:

      This is an excellent booklet for all to read, as Br. John gives an indepth study into the Greek wording as used by Ap. John. I had done my study prior to reading it, & he has also noted some points that I had overlooked. I think that Commentary Press, is the only place you can obtain a copy.

      Amos

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  10. Goldstein says:

    I believe heavenly and earthly
    Callings are voth wrong, i belieave heavenly amd earthly callings are both right, i believe in one hope and on destination the “new heavens and earth” new jerusalem coming out of heaven to the earth a joining of the two, Christ as the firstfruits of what we will be and
    Were intended to be.

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  11. bruceguth says:

    JJ, this is a very good subject you introduced here. Nice.
    “Miscellaneous” and “That’s Weird” sections of the brain! I can relate to this!

    There are so many points and “official” understandings on scriptural passages to sort through upon parting from JW association! I still see them and have to re-think subjects regularly.

    How about this one? I have wondered. Re 14:4 begins: These are the ones that did not defile themselves with women;…” . My question is still, if the thought is primarily symbolic women.

    Would anyone offer some help on the meaning?

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    • Amos says:

      Hi Daniel,

      I too am re-thinking my views on a daily basis. The more clearly I see the scriptures, the easier it becomes to adjust my previously held JW theologies, & the clearer it becomes that while I thought they were close to the truth, the greater the gap between truth & untruth becomes.

      As to Rev 14:4; my understanding of this is that BTG is depicted as a symbolic woman, & also as the mother of harlots. These harlots/daughters, I understand as being ALL professed christian religious systems that have their roots in BTG, this would include the WTS, IMHO. Remember, Rev 18:4 clearly states….”get out of HER my people…”. My view is that this “getting out” is metaphorical & not necaserally physical BUT spiritual.
      We can still be within a system, yet be worshiping “in spirit & truth” on an individual, personal basis. I say this because we all need association with like minded people, brothers & sisters, even though the system itself may be wrong, or promote some wrong doctrine.
      God’s Word is a sharp two edged sword, & this is not just for duelling with our opponents, but also for our use in disecting truth from falsehood. The more truth we have (understand) the easier it is for the Holy Spirit to guide us into yet more & clearer truth, our perceptive powers become keener & the truth clearer & easier to grasp. Conversely, the easier it becomes to identify falsehood.

      Your brother in the Lord,
      Amos

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  12. JJ says:

    Nice explanation of Rev 14:4 Amos. Thank you for that reasoning. If all or most Christian denominations have some truth and some falsehoods then things start to make more sense. “Doctrinal correctness” is no longer the end-all be-all yardstick used to measure whether we have YHWH’s approval or not. Some from all faiths will make it, and some from all these faiths won’t make it seems the most plausible thing in my mind.

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  13. Amos says:

    Thank’s for your reply JJ.

    My belief now is that “Doctrinal correctness”, is well down the list. What I believe that our Father is looking for is our “heart dedication”. Our desire to obey His Son, come what may….even to death, AND to love our brothers….AND our fellow man.
    If we treat others harshly, or with distain, contempt, etc. how does this relate to the way our LOrd treated those around Him, while on earth?
    What was it that drew people to the Lord?
    Was it not His genuine love & caring for those He came in contact with?
    As Paul said; “Become imitators of me, as I am of Christ”. This is what our Father is looking for in us…to imitate His Son!

    How could we (as kings & priests) be used in the restoration of mankind during the millennium, if we have a wrong attitude toward others/non-believers (including our brothers) now?

    What I see happening now is that this is OUR (the saints) time of trial…will we make the grade???

    Only by Faith,
    Obedience,
    AND the Grace of God.

    Amos

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  14. bruceguth says:

    Thank you both for your thoughts here. I have been thinking along the same lines, while knowing that the same thing applies toward any woman that would also defile us, as each man needs to take care in.
    I have also sought words that give better meaning, rather than simply those in the NWT. An example with this discussion above is that the NAS uses the term “imitators” (of Christ) as the NWT, though KJ, Amplified, and NIV use “followers”, or “pattern”. Some how the word imitate is a bit inadequate for me in the sense of the idea behind “imitation”. Not that it’s wrong to consider ourselves imitators of Christ.
    I agree with Amos about associating with many within various branches of the Christian faith; that it’s good in it’s own ways. Just awhile ago, a pastor friend of mine dropped in, and we spent awhile together while discussing scripture. I have invited him over before, and we compare many things, and it is upbuilding. I intend inviting him to my study at home as it draws closer. This way, he’ll have to yield to my presentation more too. He’s rather zealous for his thoughts sometimes! :)

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