I have been reading and getting some great feedback about the Bible Students lately. They follow Russell’s simpler, no-need-for-an-organization beliefs, and seem to have very good sensibilities about Scripture. But…

There’s always a “but”- is that enough? After learning that the 607 B.C.E date is just flat out wrong, and reading Peter Gregerson’s excellent reasoning on the absurdities of the Finished Mystery Book (Studies in the Scriptures #7) now I’m even more confused. I mean the LDS/Mormons are really nice people too but they are one of the wackiest Christian denominations there is from a doctrinal point of view. How different are the Bible Students in that way? Idk, but it just seems like following Russell would be a step backwards not forwards. He was sincere most will agree but so far off the mark on so many things, including but not limited to the taking of the 1874 chronology straight from the Adventists.

But I need to acknowledge that I have a lot more to learn about the Bible Students, and the last thing a JW wants is for someone to judge them solely on what they’ve heard from someone else….

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35 Comments on Bible Students- cousins or brothers?

  1. Dennis says:

    Hi JJ,

    You’ll find the Bible Students are united in their beliefs in many areas: The Ransom, No Trinity Doctrine, No Hellfire, etc. Some individuals and classes hold more rigidly to all of Pastor Russell’s teachings and regard him as the FDS and Seventh Messenger while others hold him in high regard but deviate on various theological points (such as, does the church share in the sin offering). Some spend a lot of time quoting the Pastor and the reprints while others don’t. Where the belief is thought to be non-essential to salvation most have no problem in fellowship with such a person. But since most Bible Students are extremely serious and diligent in their studies it’s expected that you have done your homework for any view you hold. While they hold many common beliefs there is no forced theological dogma. I personally hold some beliefs that are not of the majority and some things I am still researching. If you denied the ransom, this however would be a different story. This is the holy grail of essential doctrine in the movement. Around this doctrine BS are united as well as united in their love of the Lord and his Father. Bible Students are accountable to their master only. There is no organization at all between them and their relationship to the Lord. So at a convention you will find those Russell quoting BS associating with others who hold slightly different theological view points. You’ll also see this same thing on the various BS websites and forums. There is 100% truth but no one person (or organization) has a full grasp on it. All will however in the Kingdom. The danger is when an organization insists that you must believe and accept as truth every teaching (right or wrong) that is unique to their particular movement. So many of the teachings in religions today are not salvation issues but are presented as such. This to me, is just another way men have of enslaving the slaves of another! Jim Parkinson, a BS friend of mine has a very good talk on essential doctrine that I enjoyed.

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    • Dennis says:

      One more thought. I have noticed (and personally experienced) that a lot of questioning JW’s have a hard time moving out of the organizational mode. One’s relationship with the Lord must be an individual thing without an organization in between. I had a horrible time with this a few years back. I had to totally deconstruct my spiritual life and rebuild it solely on the one foundation whose cornerstone is Christ Jesus. Not an easy process. JW’s are so programed that they are in the true organization that sometimes the friends who start to awaken run right out and try to find the organization that is really “The Truth”. Since 100% truth cannot be found at this time this leads to the love of many to cool off and frustration to creep in. Since they cannot find that organization of 100% truth they cease having a relationship with the Lord. Actually, can it be said that they ever really had a true relationship with the master? Are they even comfortable or able to have this relationship without some sort of organization in between? Just thinking out load. This certainly is what I faced. Religion truly is a snare and a racket!

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      • lurk says:

        I`m studying the Bible with the JW.
        Now, when you say the Lord, who do you mean, Jah or Jesus?.
        I love God, this is why I keep studying.
        But I can`t handle the pressure. Participation.
        JW don`t outright tell you that life is studying, preaching and good standing with the organization (even thought in some cases they actually do).
        I keep telling them that I don`t like to preach, they tell me that no one is forcing me to do anything, but invisibly they do, if I do, it`s not enough, there is a quota (invisibly), you have to do everything they say, you have to study, preach, participate, have goals, elder, etc.

        So, to keep living, I no longer except to be in a paradise, because I can`t handle the pressure.
        I have read about oppression in the Bible http://bit.ly/a1fEwf
        But of course they teach that`s not them.
        I`m really confused and sad.

        I no longer want to study with them, but they don`t force me, but I feel threaten, that if I don`t continue, I will die.
        I never hurt anyone, but I still have to die. Is Jehovah this demanding?

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        • Dennis says:

          Hi Lurk,

          When speaking of the Lord in this post I am speaking of Jesus. In reading through the New Testament it is obvious to me that Christians are called to a relationship with Jesus, to have faith upon Jesus, to believe upon Jesus, to approach Jah through Jesus and to be saved through Jesus.

          Philippians 2:10-11 (GW)
          10 so that at the name of Jesus everyone in heaven, on earth, and in the world below will kneel
          11 and confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.

          In fact there is not another name given by which man can be saved. In this age this is how one honors the father is by your close relationship with (and honoring) the son. Jah is the Chairman of the Board but in this age Jesus is the CEO. Not sure if you have done it yet, but if you haven’t I would suggest that you put a reading of the New Testament as the priority in your Bible Studies. Start in Matthew and read every word all the way through The Revelation. I use a program for my Bible reading that uses the spoken word (dramatized) and I follow along with the written word. This brings my Bible reading to life. I love it and you will too I’m sure.

          As far as continued study with Jehovah’s Witnesses or continued membership within the organization I can not speak. This is an intensely personnel decision. As I have stated before, some who leave the organization are not better off. They are in fact much worse off. One thing I do want to impress upon you is that neither your relationship with the Lord or your salvation is dependent upon your being a Jehovah Witness. If you decide not to continue in your relationship with JW’s I would strongly encourage you to continue seeking the Lord through Bible study and prayer. Pray for the Holy Spirit to guide you in your studies and life. Be a witness of Jesus Christ everyday by your life course and if necessary use words (just heard someone say this and I liked it). If you would like to look into a really good study workbook, follow this link, http://chicagobible.org/book-s.....-ages.html. With this study and all others make sure to keep the context of the cited scriptures foremost in your mind. It is by abandoning context that one comes up with error such as the use of John 10:16 and the Other Sheep by the society. May the Lord and his Father bless your journey.

          D

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        • Jayme says:

          lurk,
          I just wanted to add to Dennis’ fine points. It really hurts to see folks feeling as you do. I can sympathize, I felt just the same for way too long. Let me assure you that if you are reconciled to Jehovah thru your faith in Jesus Christ and continue to keep a living, active relationship with Him you are not going to be destroyed. Works cannot save you. Our works are the fruitage of our faith. The WT likes to put everyone in the same box with a bunch of prescribed pharaseeical requirements. Jehovah does not think like they do. Each person has differant cirrcumstances and personalities. Jehovah loves a cheerful giver from the heart. Keep drawing close to God and our Lord Jesus and your own works of love will naturally follow. Take one day at a time and enjoy the ride knowing you are loved.

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      • max says:

        It is not easy living in the present worl right now. I am not going to list all the problems it would take to long to show mankind destroying the world. The Good News is Rev 11:18 which is the only answer for it. Having your faith so it does not become shipwrecked takes effort. How did Jesus describe some whose ships of faith had leaks? Mat 7:22,23,”When that day comes, many will say to me, “Lord, Lord, did we not prophecy in your name, cast out devils in your name, and in your name perform many miracles?” Then I will tell them to their face,”I never new you; out of my sight, you and your wicked ways.” Look at what he told these people who studied God’s word thinking they will get everlasting life. John 5:42,”as I well know well, for you have no love of God in you.” WOW! So how does the devil get people away from JW,s in this day? Real easy, let them believe what ever they want,tell them to be a bible student and all is fine. Ignore He 10:23-25 and ignore Eph 4:5 and ignore 1 Cor 1:10 and just be free, its easy. Yet the Bible says we need good works, unity,truth,a little flock remnant and a large unnubered great crowd. The first will be a part of Rev 20:6 and REv 5:9,10, and the other group Ps 37:29.
        THERE IS ONLY ONE OUT THERE!

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    • j says:

      Can you please email me the title or even better a link to the talk you mention here?

      Thanks

      eaglewatch21atgmaildotcom

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  2. Dennis says:

    Good current issue of the Herald Magazine on Essential Doctrine at http://www.heraldmag.org/.

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  3. Andrew says:

    Bible students are our brothers. Just like all other sincere christians who are striving to follow in the Master’s footsteps.

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  4. Jayme says:

    Dennis, Your comments on “the truth” are so true. We have been taught to view an organization as “the truth” rather than our Master. The two are not one and the same. I too have had to dimantle my spiritual life and rebuild it soley on the foundation cornerstone, Christ Jesus our Lord. I am two years in to this and continue to grow. The issue is really as is stated at John 8:68, “To WHOM (not where) shall we go away to?” Jesus stated that He was “the Way,and the Truth, and the life.” John 14:6.

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    • Dennis says:

      Amen. After the scales fall off and you get further down the road things get exciting don’t they! It’s a tough, tough road for a while but so worth it!

      D

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  5. Jayme says:

    Hi JJ, I also enjoy learning about what other christians believe. Sometimes I find some real gems but there is also alot of questionable stuff out there. I always keep 1 Thess. 5:21 in mind when considering anything. “Make sure of all things, hold fast to what is fine.” Also John 17:17 “Sanctify them by means of the truth, your word is truth.” Scripture, prayer, Holy Spirit, and alot of patience.

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  6. Amos says:

    Greetings all. A very encouraging conversation. I spent 59 years within the wts, & went through quite an ordeal upon leaving. I have come to understand that each one of the true church (not an organisation), the “anointed,” have a personal relationship with Yahweh & Yasha, & not any man made organization. Each one must prove the truth for themselves, & this means much personal bible study & prayer. It is only by prayer, asking the Holy Spirit to guide our thoughts, while doing study, that Yahweh will show us the things which are hidden from the sight of ANY organization.
    Thanks to Dennis for introducing me to this forum.

    Amos

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    • JJ says:

      Brother Amos, you obviously have studied and been a Christian for many years longer than most of us. Would you mind sharing with us your background and some of your story?

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      • Amos says:

        Greetings JJ, do you have a spot for introductions yet? I’d be happy to give some of my history, it goes back to the early 1920’s when my father accepted the then BS’s who later became the JW’s.
        BTW, how do you start a new thread?

        Amos

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  7. FutureMan says:

    Hi Lurk, to often Jehovah’s Witnesses place an emphasis, on involvement in the preaching work, as displaying fruitage, but while the preaching work is important, it is far more important to display the fruitages of the Spirit.

    As this scripture clearly shows.

    (Galatians 5)LITV
    22 But the fruit of the Spirit is: love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faith,
    23 meekness, self-control. Against such things there is not a law.
    24 But the ones belonging to Christ crucified the flesh with its passions and lusts.
    25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

    By people seeing how we live and behave and treat others, is far more of a Witness than going from door to door.

    But as for going from door to door, well there is no actual scriptural requirement as to how to preach the Good News.

    Jesus simply commanded his apostles to make disciples of people of all the nations and to teach them.

    Matthew 28 NWT
    18 And Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying: “All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded YOU. And, look! I am with YOU all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.”

    Jesus however did prophesy that the preaching of the Good News of the Kingdom would be done in all the inhabited earth before the end of this system of things did come.

    Matthew 24 NWT
    14 And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come.

    But this is what our Almighty God does require of us, here in this scripture that I will quote for you.

    Micah 6 LITV
    8 O man, He has declared to you what is good. And what does Jehovah require of you, but to do justice, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God?

    Now here is what the scripture say about the individual talents that we all have and how we can use them to do God’s will and to serve our brothers and sisters and to those in our community.

    1 Corinthians 12 NWT
    4 Now there are varieties of gifts, but there is the same spirit; 5 and there are varieties of ministries, and yet there is the same Lord; 6 and there are varieties of operations, and yet it is the same God who performs all the operations in all persons. 7 But the manifestation of the spirit is given to each one for a beneficial purpose. 8 For example, to one there is given through the spirit speech of wisdom, to another speech of knowledge according to the same spirit, 9 to another faith by the same spirit, to another gifts of healings by that one spirit, 10 to yet another operations of powerful works, to another prophesying, to another discernment of inspired utterances, to another different tongues, and to another interpretation of tongues. 11 But all these operations the one and the same spirit performs, making a distribution to each one respectively just as it wills.

    This scripture sets a pattern for all Christians today as to how to use our talents or our abilities to serve God and minister to one another and to preach the Good News.

    FutureMan

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  8. Amos says:

    Brothers, I’m just posting small comments as yet, as I’m still not yet free to be able to do a thorough biblical study.
    FutureMan has presented some excellent points that are uplifting indeed. He expresses the commonly held belief of Matt.24:14 (which I would like to discuss later), however only recently, I’ve been getting some different thoughts as to when this was principaly applied to. Briefly (for now), I believe that it had it’s fulfillment during the first century at Jerusalem’s destruction. To the first century saints, the Roman Empire, was THE world, & when we do the research, I believe it will be seen, that there are some parts of the “Olivet Discourse” that only apply to the first century, while other parts ALSO apply to the “end times” now, & that a few others ONLY apply to the time that we are living in now.

    I agree with FutureMan’s following comment, & I’ll give the reason why;
    Quote,”By people seeing how we live and behave and treat others, is far more of a Witness than going from door to door.”

    I believe that our “christian conduct”, will be the best witness that we can give. Any future “saints” will be drawn to other saints, by their conduct, & will then be able to build on their desire to learn the truth, rather than being door knocked. Actions speak louder than words.

    Amos

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  9. serein says:

    ac tions do speakloader than words but in the wts ur actions are seen not as love and kindness and felowship for i found it hard to go out on the min and becouse of that i dint get hours in so no one talked to me and i felt like an outsider,i have 8 children and all the studys and all the preaching was all to much for me, no one helped me, but expected me to be at the hall well dressed and every child under control, i dint feel loved and i never had true freinds,i never had any freinds.my husband is the sweetest most humble man iv ever met and becouse i met him on a jw website for relationships no one ever spoke to him.becouse of there attitudes towards him at my hall it stubbled him.he came all the way from america and hes been here for 4 years and in them for years not one brother associated with him in any shape or form, he was totaly ignored at meetings exept for the helo is ur report in good bible read, then that was it and that was just from a couple of elders, one old man spoke to him but that was it,out of the 100 or so people at my hall that was totaly unaceptable for me, as for the bible students iv been looking at there forum but i dont like the ideas they have on the pyramids,iv been looking into it all day and i still dont see it the way they do,iv tryed looking on all diff sites trying to find some logic in it all from diff perspectives but im fining it very hard. theres just not enough evidence to me to sugest anything that the pyramids have any significants to us today,i agree its a mistery and every one had diff views on this subgect,im hoping wile im looking in to it il eventualy see some logic in it all.iv looked at sites that sugest job to be the king that built them iv seen other sites that sugets that he helped in its construction iv seen other sites saying compleat opposite, but im determind to find some logic from it, as i just cant fathem why so many great minded brothers would beleive something unles it did have some kind of truth,but weather i come to the same mind set as them i do not know but i to think that all christians who are god fearing and good people are my brothers and sisters on the path of god even the jws.

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    • andrew says:

      Christian love serein to you and your husband. You are obviously searching for truth, it appears to me right now you are in a vulnerable position having just left the JWs. In my opinion the worst thing you could do is rush to find another religious world view different from the JWs but just as wrong. Take the time to really get to know the bible first, purchase several translations if possible maybe a greek interlinear and don’t be worried about covering a lot of chapters rapidly. Pray with all your heart for understanding of what you are reading. Pray that you may live in accord with what you are reading (ex. the sermon on the mount). Be open minded to others opinions, but check all opinions with the bible.

      The knowledge we really need for salvation is not that complicated. Other doctrine and prophecy can be difficult to comprehend but what is most important really is not too difficult. Find others who you can have spiritual fellowship with. You may not agree on all the details but if no one is too dogmatic that shouldn’t be a problem.

      My prayers are with you.

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      • Amos says:

        Sister Serein, Bro. Andrew has given you some excellent advice for your encouragement at this time.

        To begin with, I will also say not to dwell on any subject that you can’t agree with, such as the Pyramid, put this on the shelf for the time being, & concentrate on your relationship with YHWH & His Son Jesus.

        As you read each verse, contemplate how this fits into the context, & the Gospels, etc, & ultimately the entire Bible.

        I would recomend a good reference bible with lots of marginal refences, & follow each reference through the bible, until you come to the last one. God’s word, is the only book that has ALL the truth, so I would say, as did Andrew, concentrate on this. By doing this you will “get the mind of Christ” & with that a much clearer understanding of the scriptures.

        If you choose a “study bible”, just remember that some of the notes need to be read with caution, as these bibles have a bent toward the views of the individual & the organization they are attached to. I have found however that they have substantially more scriptural references that other bibles, & this can help to broaden your scripture base on any given verse. They also usually have good reference material at the back & generally also include a mini concordance that is very usefull.

        Your Brother in the Lord.

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    • Jayme says:

      Hi sister serein, I can totaly relate to what you said since I too have 8 children. It was so lonely at the Hall and no one appreciated just how much work we put into just getting to the meetings. All they would look at was hours in service, I was doing good to get maybe 8hrs. Thats under average so instantly I’m “weak”. The WT is NOT family friendly and if you have several children you really suffer. Im so sorry you had to go thru this too, I know how discouraging it is.

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  10. serein says:

    iv been reading my bible, and also looking on this http://www.biblegateway.com/ to as it has a few diff bibles on it and im going to take it slowly, and search pray and be patient

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    • Amos says:

      I’ll give you another excellent bible site that I use daily, it has excellent usable features.

      http://biblos.com/

      This site gives you a good selection of bibles, including an interlinear with the Strong’s numbers that you can access with a single click. Also concordances & several commentaries, + + +

      Enjoy your studies.

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  11. serein says:

    thanks Amos, it looks like a realy good site, im taking alook at it now.

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  12. Jon says:

    The BS have replaced Jesus with Russel. They worship Russel as the JWs do the GB

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  13. Jon says:

    Every BS you talk to says, What Pastor Russel says, Not what Jesus says. We all know how the JWs feel about the GB

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    • Amos says:

      I’ve also come across this with the BS’s in Australia. They always say, “Bro Russell said…”, & are unable to give an answer based on the bible.

      Amos

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    • JJ says:

      Good point, however I wouldn’t equate it 1:1 because most BS recognize he was an imperfect man. Personally I feel that God and Christ may have used him and he had Holy Spirit upon him. The WTS and the Witness view of the GB is the problem today.

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  14. Jon says:

    Exactly Amos. Russel has a bad background all the way around , personal and religious . He is the GB for the BS.
    The truth is in the wilderness right now.

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    • Amos says:

      Agreed Jon.
      Every BS forum & website that I’ve been on or looked at, seem to have this as a “majority view”. There are a few BS’s who do not present in this manner, as JJ said.
      As most BS’s view Bro. Russell as “the 7th messenger” & “that servant”, they look up to him, in saying this, I’m not criticzing him for what he did. I believe that some BS’s have taken what he set out in his writings, & made a following or religion of their own. This is not what Bro Russell would have wanted to happen.

      My view is as JJ last said; “Personally I feel that God and Christ may have used him and he had Holy Spirit upon him.” I see this as no different to any “Spirit Anointed Follower of Y’shua”.

      After all does not the scripture say; “we are all brothers”, with none ahead of any other. Why, because our Head is Christ, & we are taught by the “Paraklete” the Holy Spirit, not by any man.

      Amos

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  15. serein says:

    iv been around a wilew now on these diff sites i go n which mostly is here and bible student site, i dont side with anyone i just ask questions and say what i think on subjects but rus has made me think on some things hes said and i duno about u lot but i think he has some good things to say,im still on the fence and im not following any one teaching from anyone including the bible students as i feel still that they are at fault also on somethings i feel i need to keep searching things out, but i doo feel most comfortable going on the bs site and on here, i went on a few others but i stoped s i dont like gpoing on sites were people just knock the jws constantly or have gone compleatly ungodly and oposite to what they once beleived i only want to be around god fearing searchers of truth and i seem to only have found a fw of them,if theres any other site that anyof u could recomend to me thats not full of anti jws or nastyness let me know im only looking for knowlage and freinship and help in understanding the bible and what is to pas in the future events that jesus told us to keep our eyes open to,i think bible studenst do good and i think they are bros to the many of other people who want to do gods will,

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  16. Willie says:

    Dear Serein, I wish I could say something that would change your mind about the Great Pyramid. I have read a huge book, some booklets, and watched a couple of videos on the Pyramid and I think that it is awesome! Though we are not told, my best guess is that Shem was in charge of building the Great Pyramid under God’s direction. It has been referred to as “The Bible in Stone” because–among many astounding things–it has three chambers in it representing the three possible destinies of man. The King’s Chamber represents the heavenly abode of those called, chosen and faithful, wno qualify for joint-heirship with Jesus Christ their Lord. The Queen’s Chamber represents the earthly abode for those of mankind who live through the Time of Trouble or are raised in the resurrection during the kingdom on Earth for which we pray, “Thy Kingdom come….” and who are obedient to the New Covenant under Christ and his Bride, the Church. The Pit represents Second Death for the incorrigably wicked and disobedient ones.
    There are many references to the Pyramid in the Bible (Isa. 19:19,20 and Zech. 4:7 are my two favorites), but it seems to be a mystery to most people because it is never called a pyramid, but instead it is called a “sign,” a “pillar,” an “altar,” and a “great mountain.” The missing top stone is referred to as a “corner stone,” the “head stone” (Psa. 118:22), “head of the corner,” etc., and people just don’t pick up on the meaning. The head stone represents Jesus as it is a perfect little pyramid in itself and the rest of the pyramid must conform to the shape of the head stone. The head stone was too big when the pyramid was being built (Matt. 21:43-44; Mark 12:10; Luke 20:17,18; Acts 4:11) and consequently it was lost under the shifting sands, but it will be found as we read in Zech. 4:7 and then it will fit when the NEW casing stones are put on–38,000 on each side–one for every member of the 144,000 member body/bride of Christ– conformed to his image! Yes, I know that is not in the Bible in those words, but it is a beautiful picture of The Christ which I believe WILL come to pass, for if they are going to finally put on the top stone surely the casing stones will be restored to match it.
    Many scientific measurements and other measurements confiring chronology are also found in the Great Pyramid–things that only Jehovah God would have known. I think the Great Pyramid is here to stay for a very, very long time because it is so important as a witness to God’s foreknowledge. See also Eph. 2:20; I Pet. 2:6,7; Isa. 28:16; and Jer. 32:20.
    When C.T. Russell was writing “Studies in the Scriptures” he understood Rev. 16:7 under the third plague to be referring to the Great Pyramid and the last chapter of the Third Volume is entitled THE TESTIMONY OF GOD’S STONE WITNESS AND PROPHET, THE GREAT PYRAMID IN EGYPT. It is too bad that Rutherford discounted the Great Pyramid and ruined this glorious picture of the plan of God and of Jesus Christ as the Head of the Church for so many millions of people.
    And from the Bible we read: “For his invisible [qualities] are clearly seen from the world’s creation onward, because they are perceived by the things made [the beauty of the earth, the glory of the sky, and the structures made under the supervision of God and according to his plans–Noah’s Ark, the Great Pyramid, the Tabernacle, Solomon’s Temple, Zerubbabel’s Temple, and the future Kingdom Temple described in Ezekiel 40-48], even his eternal power and Godship, so that they are inexcusable; because, although they knew God, they did not glorify him as God nor did they thank him, but they became empty-headed in their reasonings and their unintelligent heart became darkened. Although asserting they were wise, they became foolish and turned the glory of the incorruptible God into something like the image of corruptible man….” (Rom. 1:20-23.)

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